Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Frank Steinmetzger]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 06:25:43PM -0600, R0b0t1 wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Peter Humphrey  wrote:
> > [Far off topic]
> 
> Allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment.

Thanks for the hearty laughs. It reminded me of a joke in which a priest’s
son and his friends find a dead bird. Now the kid often observed his daddy
at work, and so felt the obligation to give the bird a proper burial. He
ended with:
“… in the name of the father, the son, and into the hole he goes.”

-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

Even baldies do have streaks of luck.


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday, 2 February 2018 23:44:16 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 20:34:04 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > > But its a bad habit which I will never get into!
> > > 
> > > Couldn't you have said "…habit that I…" in the fact that you were
> > > referencing a specific habit, not just a generic place holder?
> > 
> > Nope. He said it's a bad habit. Then he said he'll never get into it.
> > So 'which' was right; he was merely adding another thought, not
> > limiting what he'd said before.
> 
> Actually, it was a deliberately poor sentence, in several ways -
> channelling my inner Ernie Wise ;-)

I be he would have joined sentences with commas too, though I never saw 
anything of his written.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Wol's lists]

On 02/02/18 17:28, Grant Taylor wrote:

On 02/02/2018 01:10 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:

We could use Perl.


I see your Perl and raise you Lisp.


Or the "language to replace all languages", PL/1

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 20:34:04 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> > > But its a bad habit which I will never get into!  
> > 
> > Couldn't you have said "…habit that I…" in the fact that you were
> > referencing a specific habit, not just a generic place holder?  
> 
> Nope. He said it's a bad habit. Then he said he'll never get into it.
> So 'which' was right; he was merely adding another thought, not
> limiting what he'd said before.

Actually, it was a deliberately poor sentence, in several ways -
channelling my inner Ernie Wise ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Everything takes longer than expected, even when you take
  into account Hoffstead's Law." - Hoffstead's Law


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[allan gottlieb]

On Fri, Feb 02 2018, Grant Taylor wrote:

> On 02/02/2018 01:03 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
>> But its a bad habit which I will never get into!
>
> Couldn't you have said "…habit that I…" in the fact that you were
> referencing a specific habit, not just a generic place holder?
>
> If I'm understanding things correctly.

I would think "... habit, which"

"I will never get into" is a non-restrictive clause giving extra
information about the habit.

allan

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday, 2 February 2018 20:05:21 GMT Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 02/02/2018 01:03 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > But its a bad habit which I will never get into!
> 
> Couldn't you have said "…habit that I…" in the fact that you were
> referencing a specific habit, not just a generic place holder?

Nope. He said it's a bad habit. Then he said he'll never get into it. So 
'which' was right; he was merely adding another thought, not limiting what 
he'd said before.

It has nothing to do with place holders; it's about defining or not 
defining. As Fowler made clear, though his later revisionists have watered 
him down.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Grant Taylor]

On 02/02/2018 01:03 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_relative_clauses#That_or_which_for_non-human_antecedents

This mentions Fowlers, the reference that Peter said to read.


Thank you.

Unfortunately, the distinction, and so the subtleties of meaning, is 
falling into disuse, even in professionally written copy.


Oh my.  I don't think I've ever run into this before.  But, it's only 
been the last decade or so that I cared enough to pay attention.



But its a bad habit which I will never get into!


Couldn't you have said "…habit that I…" in the fact that you were 
referencing a specific habit, not just a generic place holder?


If I'm understanding things correctly.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Grant Taylor]

On 02/02/2018 01:10 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:

We could use Perl.


I see your Perl and raise you Lisp.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Alan McKinnon]

hehehehe :-)

Old joke but a good one:

Q: Why don't we obfuscate perl?
A; Because that makes it more readable

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 10:10 AM, Neil Bothwick  wrote:

> On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:34:06 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
> > As a native English speaker I can never remember the precedence rules
> > about its and it's...
>
> Its easy ;-)
>
> > I vote we dump English in it's entirety and all switch to Python
>
> Come one! Most people can't handle basic spelling and grammar, how are
> they going to deal with indentation. We could use Perl. That would be
> equally incomprehensible whether right or wrong.
>
>
> --
> Neil Bothwick
>
> It's not who you know; it's whom you know.
>



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:34:06 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> As a native English speaker I can never remember the precedence rules 
> about its and it's...

Its easy ;-)

> I vote we dump English in it's entirety and all switch to Python

Come one! Most people can't handle basic spelling and grammar, how are
they going to deal with indentation. We could use Perl. That would be
equally incomprehensible whether right or wrong.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

It's not who you know; it's whom you know.


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:06:15 -0700, Grant Taylor wrote:

> > And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be
> > using "that".
> > 
> > (In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding
> > comma).  
> 
> Please defend / expound upon your statement.  -  Because I'd like to
> learn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_relative_clauses#That_or_which_for_non-human_antecedents

This mentions Fowlers, the reference that Peter said to read.

Unfortunately, the distinction, and so the subtleties of meaning, is
falling into disuse, even in professionally written copy.

But its a bad habit which I will never get into!


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The word 'Windows' is a word out of an old dialect of the Apaches.
It means: 'White man staring through glass-screen onto an hourglass...')


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Alan McKinnon]

On 02/02/2018 09:47, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:

On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 09:34:06AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:


PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes "eg",
which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".



As a native English speaker I can never remember the precedence rules
about its and it's...


That is quite easy: the ’ *always* means something has been left out. "It’s"
it its unrolled form means It is. Once you start reading it aloud as such,
you will quickly get the hang of it. Try it, it is such fun.


I did say I can't remember the rules, not that I don't understand them :-)

I do remember there, their and they're though, that one gives many folks 
trouble. Of late I've decided that human languages are fuzzy, redundant 
and meaning can usually be determined from context. Not 100%, but 
usually close.


And now I don't care any more. Except "revert". That one still grates 
me; it is not "reply"





I vote we dump English in it's entirety and all switch to Python


How do you pronounce indentation?


Like so: "tab tab space"



--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Frank Steinmetzger]

On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 09:34:06AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
> > because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes "eg",
> > which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".
> > 
> 
> As a native English speaker I can never remember the precedence rules 
> about its and it's...

That is quite easy: the ’ *always* means something has been left out. "It’s"
it its unrolled form means It is. Once you start reading it aloud as such,
you will quickly get the hang of it. Try it, it is such fun.

> I vote we dump English in it's entirety and all switch to Python

How do you pronounce indentation?

-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

LOL, you said ROFL.


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Alan McKinnon]

On 02/02/2018 00:52, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 06:55:30PM +, Neil Bothwick wrote:

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:12:07 -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:


Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
these wrong.

[snip]

I figured that would make
the example more confusion which would defeat the purpose.

~
   
MUPHRY'S LAW: The principle that any criticism of the writing of others

will itself contain at least one grammatical error.

And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be using
"that".

(In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding comma).



When your reading this sentance, you fill find their are definately some
errors in it’s spelling. That is a art less and less people can make proper
use of.

*SCNR*


PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes "eg",
which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".



As a native English speaker I can never remember the precedence rules 
about its and it's...


I vote we dump English in it's entirety and all switch to Python



--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Grant Taylor]

On 02/01/2018 11:55 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
MUPHRY'S LAW: The principle that any criticism of the writing of others 
will itself contain at least one grammatical error.


And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be using 
"that".


(In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding comma).


Please defend / expound upon your statement.  -  Because I'd like to learn.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Neil Bothwick  wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 00:41:29 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>
> Good for him. 10/10 means "well done, but you're never going to get any
> better". A depressing concept :(
>

More like, "well done, and you will get better, but 99% of the people
you meet and 85% of the managers you work for won't be able to tell
the difference."

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 00:41:29 +, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> 9/10 for effort, though, as my Dad might have said.  :)
> 
> (He was a teacher, and he never gave 10/10 for anything because, he
> said, surely there must always be some room for improvement. You see
> what we children had to cope with...)

Good for him. 10/10 means "well done, but you're never going to get any
better". A depressing concept :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Shotgun wedding: A case of wife or death.


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday, 2 February 2018 00:25:43 GMT R0b0t1 wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Peter Humphrey  
wrote:
> > [Far off topic]
> 
> Allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive
> purposes

Very funny, but I'm sorry to say I stopped reading at this point.  :)

> I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a
> diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put
> our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but
> you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I
> ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a
> doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you
> are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In
> your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and
> even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you
> back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of
> things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to
> these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it
> comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness.
> You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when
> supply and command fails you will be the first to go.
> 
> Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take
> rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who
> makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to
> swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to
> this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's
> mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass
> with flying carpets like it’s a peach of cake.

9/10 for effort, though, as my Dad might have said.  :)

(He was a teacher, and he never gave 10/10 for anything because, he said, 
surely there must always be some room for improvement. You see what we 
children had to cope with...)

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[R0b0t1]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Peter Humphrey  wrote:
> [Far off topic]

Allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive
purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a
diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put
our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but
you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I
ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a
doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you
are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In
your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and
even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you
back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of
things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to
these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it
comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness.
You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when
supply and command fails you will be the first to go.

Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take
rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who
makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to
swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to
this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's
mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass
with flying carpets like it’s a peach of cake.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday, 1 February 2018 18:12:07 GMT Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Peter Humphrey  
wrote:
> > I've been seeing some confusion recently about the abbreviations e.g.
> > and
> > i.e. Their meanings are:
> > 
> > E.g.Exempli gratia  - Latin for "for the sake of example";
> > I.e.Id est  - Latin for "that is".
> 
> Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
> more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
> these wrong.
> 
> e.g is used when giving one example when many could have used.

Could have used ... what?

You're just repeating the definition of "example".

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday, 1 February 2018 22:52:14 GMT Frank Steinmetzger wrote:

> PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
> because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes "eg",
> which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".


Aargh! No, no, no. There are no gs in an x. Say after me: "ecs-ample".

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Frank Steinmetzger]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 06:05:35PM -0500, Jack wrote:
> On 2018.02.01 17:52, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> [snip...]
> > PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
> > because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes
> > "eg", which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".
>
> A non-native speaker of English, or a non-native speaker of Latin?

The only Latin I know properly is «Romani ite domum».

-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

Finally!  No more financial worries! Broke.


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Jack]

On 2018.02.01 17:52, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
[snip...]
PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart  
because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes  
"eg", which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".


A non-native speaker of English, or a non-native speaker of Latin?

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Frank Steinmetzger]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 06:55:30PM +, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:12:07 -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
> 
> > Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
> > more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
> > these wrong.
> [snip]
> > I figured that would make
> > the example more confusion which would defeat the purpose.
>~
>   
> MUPHRY'S LAW: The principle that any criticism of the writing of others
> will itself contain at least one grammatical error.
> 
> And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be using
> "that".
> 
> (In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding comma).


When your reading this sentance, you fill find their are definately some
errors in it’s spelling. That is a art less and less people can make proper
use of.

*SCNR*


PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes "eg",
which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".

-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

The higher the qualification, the higher-grade the mistakes.


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:12:07 -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:

> Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
> more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
> these wrong.
[snip]
> I figured that would make
> the example more confusion which would defeat the purpose.
   ~
  
MUPHRY'S LAW: The principle that any criticism of the writing of others
will itself contain at least one grammatical error.

And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be using
"that".

(In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding comma).


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Some cause happiness wherever they go. Others whenever they go.


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Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Peter Humphrey  wrote:
>
> I've been seeing some confusion recently about the abbreviations e.g. and
> i.e. Their meanings are:
>
> E.g.Exempli gratia  - Latin for "for the sake of example";
> I.e.Id est  - Latin for "that is".
>

Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
these wrong.

e.g is used when giving one example when many could have used.  An
example:  "Some people in life suffer misfortunes, e.g. having a
meteor land on their house."  This is just one example of a misfortune
somebody could suffer, and there are many other unstated misfortunes.
Indeed, instead of saying "An example" in the previous sentence I
could have actually started it with, "e.g." I figured that would make
the example more confusion which would defeat the purpose.

i.e. is used when restating something in different words.  An example:
"Gentoo is a Linux distribution, i.e. a collection of software based
on the Linux kernel that is published as a single maintained work."
The second part of the sentence is a definition of "Linux
distribution" - the definition isn't just one of many examples - it is
a description of all Linux distributions.

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

Hello list,

[Far off topic]

I've been seeing some confusion recently about the abbreviations e.g. and 
i.e. Their meanings are:

E.g.Exempli gratia  - Latin for "for the sake of example";
I.e.Id est  - Latin for "that is".

HTH. I'll ge back to sleep now.

[/Far off topic]

-- 
Regards,
Peter.