Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
jc (3) : My experience with HIV kids is surely not as vast as yours. Even so, please advise us: [A] Were THOSE HIV+ individuals CD4 regularly monitored and treated with anti-retroviral medications? [B] Were THOSE HIV+ individuals TB tested and treated if necessary? [C] Were THESE HIV+ ORPHANS managed according to the same regimen THOSE individuals were/are? On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:22 PM, Mervyn Lobo mervynal...@yahoo.ca wrote: Doc, the short answer is that HIV+ people are monitored much more closely than those without HIV. The reason, I am told, is that HIV+ people are much more susceptible to diseases. TB being the leading cause of death for them. Again, since HIV+ kids are monitored much more closely, I feel those with TB will be identified much more faster than kids who are not HIV+. In other words, there is a greater danger of finding a TB Mary in the non-HIV population than in the HIV+ population. Dear Mervyn, Let us make a deal. As I do not understand much about Gold et other investment, I will NOT debate with you on the topic of financial investment. As I am NOT sure if you know enough about whether or NOT these Rivona HIV+ve kids were adequately monitored and managed, I will not debate further with you on that topic either. I'd suggest, however, that there usually is a serious difference between the TB contracted (and transmitted) by an HIV+ve person and that by a non-HIV+ve person. Though, in many parts of the world, India included, that difference is being blurred. BTW: I notice that a BJP personality has chosen to abuse the Church with this HIV issue. BRAVO ! jc
[Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
Maybe this will will help those who need to learn the precautions and risks involved for both the positive and negative infected children. The diligence and the regular monitoring that is mandatory. http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/pdfs/NC14.pdf Caring for children with special needs Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
On Jul 19, 2014, at 10:16 AM, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão wrote Maybe this will will help those who need to learn the precautions and risks involved for both the positive and negative infected children. The diligence and the regular monitoring that is mandatory. http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/pdfs/NC14.pdf Dear Dr. Falcão, Thank you. One error, some among us are making is that of automatically assuming that STANDARD protocols are being followed OR that the protocols are unimportant. good wishes jc
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
On Thu, 7/17/14, Jose Colaco wrote: Every child must have a proper physical (followed by regular physicals) before entering school. This includes: Proof of Immunization and Mantoux ( TB test) Look up Canadian / UK / US primary School (or even Uni) entry requirements. Am I to understand that Mervyn is accepting liability for any infectious diseases which might occur because the basic preventive steps were NOT taken (if that be the case)? -- Doc, I believe that the primary responsibility of a child's health lies with his/her parents or guardians. When the parents/guardians are ignorant, that responsibility extends to the village - and then to society at large. I totally agree with you that every child should be immunized and have the proof before s/he applies to any school. Most parents would like reasonable assurances that the school authorities are following the rules for the prevention of communicable diseases. The crux of the matter in the case above, however, is fear. Fear fueled by ignorance. You can remove fear, as Cecil pointed out, by having a PTA. You cannot totally remove the transmission of communicable diseases from any school. When someone gets a 'gut feeling' and points a finger at HIV+ individuals, they are spreading fear, they are discriminating. Plain and simple. I know people who have been HIV+ for decades. They do not spread any infectious diseases. I also know people who have never had HIV and are dead from diseases that are totally preventable. Mervyn
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
On 17 July 2014 19:58, Mervyn Lobo wrote (ML); my response (jc): ML (1): I believe that the primary responsibility of a child's health lies with his/her parents or guardians. When the parents/guardians are ignorant, that responsibility extends to the village - and then to society at large. jc (1): And WHO has the responsibility to ensure that the orphans are appropriately tested and treated? I wonder why you chose to call the 'parents/guardians' ignorant. What IF they are actually quite aware of HOW the 'system' works, and have NOT YET seen evidence that the orphans are cleared for school (say) as they would be in the UK or Canada or should be in India? == ML (2): You can remove fear, as Cecil pointed out, by having a PTA jc (2) : I will just leave that opinion out in the corner - for the time being. Some time soon, someone will explain HOW merely having a PTA can remove fear. == ML (3) .I know people who have been HIV+ for decades. They do not spread any infectious diseases. jc (3) : My experience with HIV kids is surely not as vast as yours. Even so, please advise us: [A] Were THOSE HIV+ individuals CD4 regularly monitored and treated with anti-retroviral medications? [B] Were THOSE HIV+ individuals TB tested and treated if necessary? [C] Were THESE HIV+ ORPHANS managed according to the same regimen THOSE individuals were/are? BTW: Is it now the Law of some La La Land to ARREST the following: * Women who wear bikinis * Women who share a glass of wine at a pub * Women who hold the hands of the man they love ...on Valentine's Day * Parents who protest in Rivona? yours sincerely jc
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
J. Colaco wrote: And WHO has the responsibility to ensure that the orphans are appropriately tested and treated? I wonder why you chose to call the 'parents/guardians' ignorant. What IF they are actually quite aware of HOW the 'system' works, and have NOT YET seen evidence that the orphans are cleared for school (say) as they would be in the UK or Canada or should be in India? Doc, The responsibility for orphans lies on my shoulders. And yours. It would be a cruel place where people care less for the weakest members of society. jc (3) : My experience with HIV kids is surely not as vast as yours. Even so, please advise us: [A] Were THOSE HIV+ individuals CD4 regularly monitored and treated with anti-retroviral medications? [B] Were THOSE HIV+ individuals TB tested and treated if necessary? [C] Were THESE HIV+ ORPHANS managed according to the same regimen THOSE individuals were/are? Doc, the short answer is that HIV+ people are monitored much more closely than those without HIV. The reason, I am told, is that HIV+ people are much more susceptible to diseases. TB being the leading cause of death for them. Again, since HIV+ kids are monitored much more closely, I feel those with TB will be identified much more faster than kids who are not HIV+. In other words, there is a greater danger of finding a TB Mary in the non-HIV population than in the HIV+ population. Mervyn
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
J. Colaco wrote: I agree with what is done in the UK and in Canada where (based on what I know) HIV infected children are rigorously followed up by the pediatric Infectious disease specialists and administered the necessary therapy...often by DOT (direct observation treatment) esp wrt TB Are you absolutely certain that the same prevails in the case of these HIV+ve orphans? Are they TB free? Do you know for sure? Are the children who presently attend that school TB free? Do you know for sure? WHO exactly is willing to be liable IF either the HIV orphans or the other school children contract TB from the other? You Mervyn? BTW: Have the orphanage children been cleared for other disease asymptotic (carrier) states? --- Doc, The crux of the matter here is that one cannot discriminate against another person just because you feel the other person may test positive for TB. Mervyn
[Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
Roland Francis: Even if you disclaimed education, merely being informed and aware as you claim to be, should have convinced you of the correct stand without the necessity of self doubts on the subject of HIV infected children viz they have the full rights of all children including access to education without discrimination and harassment. There can be no second thoughts about this under the guise of sincerely analysing my reactions. If you think like this, no wonder people with a little less than your level of information and awareness could do what they did in Rivona. Cecil: Unlike you Roland, I am not perfect and not always sure that my reactions are correct. I try to walk a mile in the other person's shoes before passing judgement. All men should strive to learn before they die what they are running from, And to, and why. ~James Thurber Roland: If I am blinkered and negative than your phrase is extremely naive not to be termed divisive. Pity a writer could not have said it more clearly. No matter how you mask or spin it, the phrase could have been unambiguous with Our Children, Our Children's Children, if that is what you meant. Cecil: As I said before I have used the phrase before, for other causes, to good effect. Only a convoluted mind could interpret it as you did. If you feel your English is superior you can please coin slogans and sell them. Though I doubt anyone would buy, Our Children, Our Children's Children. It sounds smug and selfish. - Roland: My last word on this subject. Cecil: It better be. You have forgotten the issue at hand and are trying to play with words and defend your stupid assumptions. But I must admit I was looking forward to Roland's Lessons in Proper English Usage for Copywriting Professionals. Cheers! ==
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
On Jul 16, 2014, at 9:40 PM, Mervyn Lobo mervynal...@yahoo.ca wrote: Doc, The crux of the matter here is that one cannot discriminate against another person just because you feel the other person may test positive for TB. COMMENT: Sorry to advise you, Mervyn. That is a rather convoluted method of justifying irresponsibility on the part of school and public health authorities. Every child must have a proper physical (followed by regular physicals) before entering school. This includes: Proof of Immunization and Mantoux ( TB test) Look up Canadian / UK / US primary School (or even Uni) entry requirements. Am I to understand that Mervyn is accepting liability for any infectious diseases which might occur because the basic preventive steps were NOT taken (if that be the case)? With regards Typhoid Mary. jc
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
Sorry, you leave me unconvinced. Here's why: Cecil: I always question myself and my actions, reactions and motivations. It is very easy to do armchair analysis from a distance. It is easy for me to condemn the parents of the Rivona school sitting here in Panjim. What if I was in their place? How would I have reacted if kids living with HIV were admitted in my son's school. I ask myself such questions all the while. Only after asking myself these questions, and sincerely analyzing my reactions, can I then turn the scope on the Rivona parents. And incidentally I passed my own test with flying colours. But yes one must do a lot of introspection before being critical of what others do. Response: Even if you disclaimed education, merely being informed and aware as you claim to be, should have convinced you of the correct stand without the necessity of self doubts on the subject of HIV infected children viz they have the full rights of all children including access to education without discrimination and harassment. There can be no second thoughts about this under the guise of sincerely analysing my reactions. If you think like this, no wonder people with a little less than your level of information and awareness could do what they did in Rivona. Cecil: Your interpretation exposes your blinkered understanding of issues. For our kids and their kids is a slogan I have used before when raising funds or awareness for issues related to young people. It is a beautiful phrase that encompasses everyone. Our children, their children, our children's children. Only a convoluted mind could interpret it in the negative way you have. Response: If I am blinkered and negative than your phrase is extremely naive not to be termed divisive. Pity a writer could not have said it more clearly. No matter how you mask or spin it, the phrase could have been unambiguous with Our Children, Our Children's Children, if that is what you meant. My last word on this subject. Roland.
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
On Tue, 7/15/14, Cecil Pinto wrote: Roland: And I certainly hope that in your last sentence For our kids and their kids you do not mean for their kids with HIV and our kids without, because it certainly lends itself to that interpretation, when one knows you have skill in wordcraft and all. Cecil: Your interpretation exposes your blinkered understanding of issues. For our kids and their kids is a slogan I have used before when raising funds or awareness for issues related to young people. It is a beautiful phrase that encompasses everyone. Our children, their children, our children's children. Only a convoluted mind could interpret it in the negative way you have. == Folks, This one reminds me of a quote from Awareness written by Fr. Anthony de Mello: We see people and things not as they are, but as we are. http://www.demellospirituality.com/ Mervyn
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
On Jul 14, 2014, at 7:54 PM, Mervyn Lobo mervynal...@yahoo.ca wrote: It is pure ignorance that fuels the fear of some parents towards kids who are HIV+.. The following is from the National Aids Trust (UK) Perhaps it will alleviate the fears of those who are not up to date on HIV. Mervyn Dear Mervyn I agree with what is done in the UK and in Canada where (based on what I know) HIV infected children are rigorously followed up by the pediatric Infectious disease specialists and administered the necessary therapy...often by DOT (direct observation treatment) esp wrt TB Are you absolutely certain that the same prevails in the case of these HIV+ve orphans? Are they TB free? Do you know for sure? Are the children who presently attend that school TB free? Do you know for sure? WHO exactly is willing to be liable IF either the HIV orphans or the other school children contract TB from the other? You Mervyn? BTW: Have the orphanage children been cleared for other disease asymptotic (carrier) states? Do you know the story of Mary? (As is Typhoid Mary?) DO you really have a complaint about the parents being extra-cautious wrt their own children? I hope you understand that the RISK is NOT for HIV transmission (unless one child bites another) BUT for the other infections which are found in orphanage children' and in HIV infected individuals. jc National Aids Trust (UK) It is important to remember: Having a child living with HIV in school poses no risk to staff or pupils. There is no known case of an HIV transmission occurring at school. Virtually all children living with HIV are completely healthy for the majority of their school career. With appropriate treatment and care, they can live a long and healthy life. Children living with HIV have regular clinical check-ups and those that need medication may take it at home once or twice a day. HIV suppresses the immune system so children living with HIV have to take care not to catch childhood illnesses, such as measles or chicken pox as these can have severe health implications for them.
[Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
Roland Francis: Cecil, I would easily count you one of the cognoscenti when compared to the class that needs education. Cecil: Thanks you for the certification but I consider myself informed and aware rather than 'educated'. Roland: Therefore it is surprising that you mention your doubts on how you yourself would have reacted in a school situation in Panjim, like that of Rivona. I thought education would count for the difference in your behaviour about which there should have been no doubts on the score that children with HIV do not deserve to be shown any difference from those without that condition, period. Cecil: I always question myself and my actions, reactions and motivations. It is very easy to do armchair analysis from a distance. It is easy for me to condemn the parents of the Rivona school sitting here in Panjim. What if I was in their place? How would I have reacted if kids living with HIV were admitted in my son's school. I ask myself such questions all the while. Only after asking myself these questions, and sincerely analyzing my reactions, can I then turn the scope on the Rivona parents. And incidentally I passed my own test with flying colours. But yes one must do a lot of introspection before being critical of what others do. Fore example there are lots of Goans living abroad who are very vocal in Goan cyberspace. Which is good. We can learn from exchanges. But some of them constantly scream in a shrill voice telling us what to do and what not to do. Most of these people have a very vague idea of ground realities here in Goa. These people should also pause and walk a mile in our shoes before screaming their nonsense advice. Roland: And I certainly hope that in your last sentence For our kids and their kids you do not mean for their kids with HIV and our kids without, because it certainly lends itself to that interpretation, when one knows you have skill in wordcraft and all. Cecil: Your interpretation exposes your blinkered understanding of issues. For our kids and their kids is a slogan I have used before when raising funds or awareness for issues related to young people. It is a beautiful phrase that encompasses everyone. Our children, their children, our children's children. Only a convoluted mind could interpret it in the negative way you have. Cheers! ==
[Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
Let's walk the talk. It's too easy to blame the Government, or the school management or the parents of those children in Rivona who refused to let HIV kids be admitted into their school. It's too easy to criticize from a distance. What if it was the school where my child studied? How would the parents have reacted? How would I have reacted? Here's what I suggest. Let each of us parents, wherever we are in Goa, request our school PTA to have a special meeting with a single point agenda. Asking each parent, Are you open to admitting children with HIV into this school?. I know there will not be a unanimous 'YES' in any school. No problem. We then approach the Government, and the Education Department and Human Rights organizations to have education and sensitization programs for our parents. We allay everyone's fears till we can reach an unanimous decision, even if it takes weeks. Each school PTA then sends their now 'informed' decision to the Education Department. HIV is not going anywhere in a hurry. The problem will re-occur in some other school tomorrow. Let us be prepared to welcome these kids after we have been made to understand that there is no problem with their presence. Let what happened in Rivona never happen again. If you are a parent in Goa please contact your school PTA and ask them to call this Special Meeting. If you are not a parent in Goa please share this so that a Goan parent will see it and do the right thing. For our kids, and their kids!
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
On Jul 14, 2014, at 2:03 AM, Cecil Pinto cecilpi...@gmail.com wrote: 1: Let's Walk the Talk 2: Human Rights 3: No Problem. Comment: Before you say 'No Problem', here are some steps: a: knowing that individuals with HIV may have HIV disease, Organise to have then examined, treated (if necessary) and regularly monitored. b: knowing that individuals with HIV disease may also be suffering from TB, Screen them and Treat them before exposing other children to TB c: knowing that individuals with HIV have a higher chance of being infected by TB from others, ensure that ALL children and teachers etc in that screened for TB and treated before exposing the HIV children to TB d: while you are at it, ensure that ALL children in ALL schools are similarly protected. jc
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
Cecil, I would easily count you one of the cognoscenti when compared to the class that needs education. Therefore it is surprising that you mention your doubts on how you yourself would have reacted in a school situation in Panjim, like that of Rivona. I thought education would count for the difference in your behaviour about which there should have been no doubts on the score that children with HIV do not deserve to be shown any difference from those without that condition, period. And I certainly hope that in your last sentence For our kids and their kids you do not mean for their kids with HIV and our kids without, because it certainly lends itself to that interpretation, when one knows you have skill in wordcraft and all. With malice towards none. Roland. Sent from Samsung Mobile Original message From: Cecil Pinto cecilpi...@gmail.com Date: 07-14-2014 2:03 AM (GMT-05:00) To: goanet goa...@goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV? Let's walk the talk. It's too easy to blame the Government, or the school management or the parents of those children in Rivona who refused to let HIV kids be admitted into their school. It's too easy to criticize from a distance. What if it was the school where my child studied? How would the parents have reacted? How would I have reacted? Here's what I suggest. Let each of us parents, wherever we are in Goa, request our school PTA to have a special meeting with a single point agenda. Asking each parent, Are you open to admitting children with HIV into this school?. I know there will not be a unanimous 'YES' in any school. No problem. We then approach the Government, and the Education Department and Human Rights organizations to have education and sensitization programs for our parents. We allay everyone's fears till we can reach an unanimous decision, even if it takes weeks. Each school PTA then sends their now 'informed' decision to the Education Department. HIV is not going anywhere in a hurry. The problem will re-occur in some other school tomorrow. Let us be prepared to welcome these kids after we have been made to understand that there is no problem with their presence. Let what happened in Rivona never happen again. If you are a parent in Goa please contact your school PTA and ask them to call this Special Meeting. If you are not a parent in Goa please share this so that a Goan parent will see it and do the right thing. For our kids, and their kids!
Re: [Goanet] What does your school PTA say about admitting kids with HIV?
On Mon, 7/14/14, Cecil Pinto wrote: HIV is not going anywhere in a hurry. The problem will re-occur in some other school tomorrow. Let us be prepared to welcome these kids after we have been made to understand that there is no problem with their presence. Let what happened in Rivona never happen again. If you are a parent in Goa please contact your school PTA and ask them to call this Special Meeting. If you are not a parent in Goa please share this so that a Goan parent will see it and do the right thing. For our kids, and their kids! Cecil, Thanks for being pro-active on this issue here and elsewhere on the web. I am glad you have come out strongly in support of education for all. It is pure ignorance that fuels the fear of some parents towards kids who are HIV+.. The following is from the National Aids Trust (UK) Perhaps it will alleviate the fears of those who are not up to date on HIV. Mervyn This page is for all teachers (especially head teachers), school governors and anyone who has responsibility for staff or pupils in schools. Under the Equality Act 2010, it is unlawful to discriminate against people living with HIV from the point of diagnosis. This means that schools cannot discriminate against pupils or staff living with HIV. It also means that schools should make reasonable adjustments to ensure people living with HIV can work or study at the school. Despite these legal protections, there are still cases of children being refused a place or excluded and staff being sacked or not employed simply because they are living with HIV. It is important to remember: Having a child living with HIV in school poses no risk to staff or pupils. There is no known case of an HIV transmission occurring at school. HIV cannot be passed on by spitting, small cuts or grazes, sharing utensils or toilets seats. No case has ever been recorded of HIV transmission from child to child by biting, fighting, playing or any other normal childhood interaction. Virtually all children living with HIV are completely healthy for the majority of their school career. With appropriate treatment and care, they can live a long and healthy life. Children living with HIV have regular clinical check-ups and those that need medication may take it at home once or twice a day. HIV suppresses the immune system so children living with HIV have to take care not to catch childhood illnesses, such as measles or chicken pox as these can have severe health implications for them.
