RE: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
The high collar is a part of the partlet. She is wearing a kind of coat over a gown. Something a kin to this ensemble. http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/countesslivia.JPG or this http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/EMILIA1560.jpg only a little more fitted in the bodice region. Will this be a problem? There is this pattern that can be adapted http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/patterns/loosegowns.html and I know there are some dress diaries online that deal with making the coat (sorry it's my bed time and brain is shutting down) Note just because a dress is a solid color does not necessarily mean you can't use your material to make that style, unless you are entering is in a competition where authenticity is a part of the score. De Whos not sure she's making sense. -Original Message- I found the perfect dress for my fabric! That is about the closest I've found to any design for the fabric I have. Any idea of what kind of pattern I'd need to make it? http://www.tudor-portraits.com/ElenoraToledo5.jpg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
otsisto wrote: or this http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/EMILIA1560.jpg only a little more fitted in the bodice region. What is that she is holding in her right hand? It looks like some part of her coat. A belt? Or is she holding the hem up? Or is it something else? Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
Dawn wrote: otsisto wrote: or this http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/EMILIA1560.jpg only a little more fitted in the bodice region. What is that she is holding in her right hand? It looks like some part of her coat. A belt? Or is she holding the hem up? Or is it something else? Really narrow hanging oversleeve? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Dawn wrote: otsisto wrote: or this http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/EMILIA1560.jpg only a little more fitted in the bodice region. What is that she is holding in her right hand? It looks like some part of her coat. A belt? Or is she holding the hem up? Or is it something else? I'm 95% certain it's a zibellino (sable pelt, sometimes called flea fur modernly). I've just sent this URL off to Tawny Sherrill, who has spent many years cataloguing images of zibellini. (She has an article about them in the next volume of Medieval Clothing Textiles, due out in the spring.) She will confirm whether I've got it right; I'm *not* an expert in reading this period's paintings. I would be very tickled if I've managed to spot one that she doesn't already have! --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Robin Netherton wrote: I'm 95% certain it's a zibellino ... Nope. Tawny points out that when you blow it up, you can see clearly it's fabric. I didn't see that on my browser, but when I saved and enlarged the image, I could see clearly that it loops up behind her hand, and you can see a little of the embellishment of the dress fabric in the front of hte fold. I think it's a fold of her skirt that she's lifting. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Susan B. Farmer wrote: This painting http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/florentine_PortraitWoman-landinFig39.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/byswr is simply listed as Florentine with no specific artist attributed. It's almost *identical* to the painting from Rosa's book currently under discussion. By George, I think you've got it. Note especially the little curl of hair in front of her left ear -- only in the b/w image, it goes down along her neck. I'll go out on a little limb here. Here's my guess at a scenario: The b/w image started as an engraving (photogravure) made for a French book in the early 1800s. The engraver used the image Susan cites as a base, but made some adjustments/embellishments based on other portraits (including the addition of the dog, jewels on the sleeves, etc.). The French book captioned the image with the French version of the name of a Renaissance artist who was at that time thought to be the artist of at least one of the prints the engraver worked from. Levi-Pisetsky picked up the engraving, and the attribution, without verification, and analyzed it as though it were an accurate original. The a in the attribution is a leftover preposition from the original French caption. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
My tuppence on this one is that it is a decorative, vestigial hanging sleeve. You can see something like it in Queen Elizabeth's Pelican portrait. I agree that it is fabric and not fur, but I don't think it's part of the skirt. Karen Seamstrix On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:20:10 -0600 (CST) Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Robin Netherton wrote: I'm 95% certain it's a zibellino ... Nope. Tawny points out that when you blow it up, you can see clearly it's fabric. I didn't see that on my browser, but when I saved and enlarged the image, I could see clearly that it loops up behind her hand, and you can see a little of the embellishment of the dress fabric in the front of hte fold. I think it's a fold of her skirt that she's lifting. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: multiple copies Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
At 10:21 AM 1/01/2006, you wrote: Holbein's Jane Seymour for instance;) http://www.artcyclopedia.com/commons/hans-holbein-the-younger.html (Though there is a third somewhere.) I thought there was four? IIRC Janet Arnold in a Handbook of Costume has the different portraits side by side. Sharon Nevin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
Quoting Kathy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Someone on another list just presented a really compelling comparison: http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/diary/images/bronzino.jpg http://www.asn-ibk.ac.at/bildung/faecher/geschichte/maike/treffpunkt/buch2-96.htm It supports the opinion that my version is a later copy, but they have misdated it, if they have. The details have been exaggerated it would appear if this is true. One of these paintings is by Alessandro Allori apparently. I've seen it attributed to Bronzino as well. *snippage* Allori was Bronzino's pupil -- and Bronzino was made his guardian as well so there was a close relationship between the two. In fact, if you see an attribution of Allesandro Bronzino, it is in fact Allori rather than Agnolo Bronzino who was the artist. He is known to have taken Bronzino's name from time to time. Here's a brief bio. http://www.wga.hu/bio/a/allori/alessand/biograph.html and one for Bronzino http://www.wga.hu/bio/b/bronzino/biograph.html Jerusha - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
Hi, I stumped over this stunning mans renaissance clothes. How is his doublet buttoned down the front. I only se 3 buttons at the top, where is the rest? Is it laced at the back? http://www.asn-ibk.ac.at/bildung/faecher/geschichte/maike/treffpunkt/abb81a.htm Bjarne - Original Message - From: Kathy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 8:17 PM Subject: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting? Someone on another list just presented a really compelling comparison: http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/diary/images/bronzino.jpg http://www.asn-ibk.ac.at/bildung/faecher/geschichte/maike/treffpunkt/buch2-96.htm It supports the opinion that my version is a later copy, but they have misdated it, if they have. The details have been exaggerated it would appear if this is true. One of these paintings is by Alessandro Allori apparently. I've seen it attributed to Bronzino as well. I'm gonna throw a reallly wild thought out there : would the A in the Jean Bahuet attribution have some relevance?! Doubtful, frankly. I think trying to unearth who this Bahuet guy is will give me most of the answers. I did find an Alfred-Louis Bahuet Born in Paris, France, 1862 listed as a largely unknown artist, but that's it. I have him listed in a collection that has him with their Engravings, Etchings, Lithographs and ÂPrints. There is another one though. http://www.comanducci.it/english/Risultati.asp?Ricerca=bahuet Also shows a Jeannin Bahuet, in the 16th century. Okay, my head is spinnning. time to go have a shower and go see Narnia with my daughter. :-) Kathy It's never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
This thing has been on my mind all day. I've looked all over the Internet for similar pictures or images. I've found so many more than I knew about and still now that are this one picture. I''ve looked under all Renaissance artists around 1540 and not look close. It looks like the Flemish artists and Ruebens paiintings but not the same background treatment. So as an art teacher, this has me baffled. I'd like to know more about the Renaissance Period of art is my favorite. I have lots to learn about the clothing of that time. So now it has become a mission to learn more about this wonderful period of art. Please keep us informed about this painting. Where did you get the picture? Can you write the publisher for more information? Maybe they can refer you to the original owner or museum. It's worth a trty. - Original Message - From: Susan B. Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting? Quoting Kathy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Someone on another list just presented a really compelling comparison: http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/diary/images/bronzino.jpg http://www.asn-ibk.ac.at/bildung/faecher/geschichte/maike/treffpunkt/buch2-96.htm It supports the opinion that my version is a later copy, but they have misdated it, if they have. The details have been exaggerated it would appear if this is true. One of these paintings is by Alessandro Allori apparently. I've seen it attributed to Bronzino as well. *snippage* Allori was Bronzino's pupil -- and Bronzino was made his guardian as well so there was a close relationship between the two. In fact, if you see an attribution of Allesandro Bronzino, it is in fact Allori rather than Agnolo Bronzino who was the artist. He is known to have taken Bronzino's name from time to time. Here's a brief bio. http://www.wga.hu/bio/a/allori/alessand/biograph.html and one for Bronzino http://www.wga.hu/bio/b/bronzino/biograph.html Jerusha - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
http://www.vivoscuola.it/us/dlllsn3095/alad/030527.htm A quick search for bahuet and ritratto found this. No more info, but it gives an Italian spelling of his name. He seems to be variously called Giovanni and Gioninni. Jeannin and Jean would be the French spellings of his name. It all makes sense, in English it would be John;) Or some diminuitive? The original imge looks like it just had the wrong date for it. Possibly it was also taken from a photogravure. It's an early photogrpahic process that is a little grainier. I have several books from the start of the 20thC that uses this process. http://www.curtis-collection.com/process.html http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/photography/processframe.php?processid=pr017 Got 'em! I knew that I had pictures of those sleeves. :-) Both of these paintings are in the new book Moda a Firenze on the influence of Eleanor of Toledo. The book covers Florentine Style from 1540-1580. It's *wonderful* My copy of the book isn't here yet, (I fondled an ILL copy) but the best place that I found to get it was from this site in Italy. Sigh, I so need to get this book out on ILL. I do German and Netherlands, but it's always exciting to see good clear images from other countries as well. http://tinyurl.com/byswr http://tinyurl.com/dunbm Thanks for those:) Actually I spotted a few more in that style on bildindex. I did a search for bildnis with the date ranges 1500 - 1600 and trawled through over 3000 images;) http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/be00068a05a.jpg Niederlande?, Bildnis der Lavinia Fontana, 1501/1600?, Bild, Brüssel, Sammlung unbekannt http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi00235e12a.jpg Bronzino, Agnolo (Zuschreibung), Bildnis einer Dame, Bild, Berlin, Sammlung Schmidt, Carl (?) http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/koeln_2577027b.jpg Bronzino, Agnolo (Nachahmer), Bildnis einer Frau / Bildnis einer Frau (Bianca Capello?), Bild, Köln, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, WRM 3473 http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/it00148g08a.jpg Bronzino, Agnolo, Bildnis einer adeligen Dame, Bild, Florenz, Galleria degli Uffizi, Pinacoteca Ya, got me, she's not at all dressed the smae;) I just like her partlet. michaela de bruce http://glittersweet.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 30/12/2005 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
Quoting michaela [EMAIL PROTECTED]: *snippage* Got 'em! I knew that I had pictures of those sleeves. :-) Both of these paintings are in the new book Moda a Firenze on the influence of Eleanor of Toledo. The book covers Florentine Style from 1540-1580. It's *wonderful* My copy of the book isn't here yet, (I fondled an ILL copy) but the best place that I found to get it was from this site in Italy. Sigh, I so need to get this book out on ILL. I do German and Netherlands, but it's always exciting to see good clear images from other countries as well. http://tinyurl.com/byswr http://tinyurl.com/dunbm Thanks for those:) Actually I spotted a few more in that style on bildindex. I did a search for bildnis with the date ranges 1500 - 1600 and trawled through over 3000 images;) Cool. I haven't figured out how to search that site yet. At one time, I was pointed to an enormous collection of Sofonisba Anguissola paintings there, but everything that I pull up on her now from that site has much fewer paintings. How did you set up your search? http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/be00068a05a.jpg Niederlande?, Bildnis der Lavinia Fontana, 1501/1600?, Bild, Brüssel, Sammlung unbekannt I like Lavinia. :-) the gown is black, the underskirt is gold, and those are pearls on her sleeves. http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi00235e12a.jpg Bronzino, Agnolo (Zuschreibung), Bildnis einer Dame, Bild, Berlin, Sammlung Schmidt, Carl (?) One very similar to this on is in the book (attributed to Pulzone) -- looks like the same face. The body of the gown looks like it might be needlepoint or cross-stitch in the book image. http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/koeln_2577027b.jpg Bronzino, Agnolo (Nachahmer), Bildnis einer Frau / Bildnis einer Frau (Bianca Capello?), Bild, Köln, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, WRM 3473 There's one similar to this by Allori. The sleeve puffs are different -- in the Allori portrait, they're not lined up. The fabric in the Allori portrait is black with a gold stripe in it. http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/it00148g08a.jpg Bronzino, Agnolo, Bildnis einer adeligen Dame, Bild, Florenz, Galleria degli Uffizi, Pinacoteca Ya, got me, she's not at all dressed the smae;) I just like her partlet. This one is in color in the book. Isn't that partlet just too cool? Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
I found the perfect dress for my fabric! That is about the closest I've found to any design for the fabric I have. Any idea of what kind of pattern I'd need to make it? http://www.tudor-portraits.com/ElenoraToledo5.jpg - Original Message - From: Susan B. Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting? Quoting Becky [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This thing has been on my mind all day. I've looked all over the Internet for similar pictures or images. I've found so many more than I knew about and still now that are this one picture. Got 'em! I knew that I had pictures of those sleeves. :-) Both of these paintings are in the new book Moda a Firenze on the influence of Eleanor of Toledo. The book covers Florentine Style from 1540-1580. It's *wonderful* My copy of the book isn't here yet, (I fondled an ILL copy) but the best place that I found to get it was from this site in Italy. http://www.polistampa.com/asp/sl.asp?id=3653 Gorgeous book -- lots of paintings that I've never seen any where else. In fact, most of them I'd never seen before. This painting http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/florentine_PortraitWoman-landinFig39.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/byswr is simply listed as Florentine with no specific artist attributed. It's almost *identical* to the painting from Rosa's book currently under discussion. This other painting http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/bronzinoWorkshop_PortraitWoman-landinFig57.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/dunbm is attributed to Workshop of Bronzino Susan, Florentine junkie - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Pattern for Eleanor Painting was Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting?
Hi, Becky. That is an amazing portrait, isn't it? I got to spend some time with the book this summer (ILL is *such* a gift from the costuming/research gods!), and got some scans of it. weg I'd use the pattern taken from the extant Eleanor, if I were doing the dress in the portrait. It's in Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion, 1560-1620_. Similar dresses show up in Alcega, if I'm not mistaken (it's been years since I've looked at my copy). Alcega and Arnold would also be pretty good sources for ideas on how to make the overgown/surcoat. You might check out the Realmofvenus website (not sure of exact web addy, but someone else might have it). The owner/host specializes in Italian stuff--more heavily oriented towards Venetian, but lotses and lotses of yummy ideas, nonetheless! Good luck with the outfit! --Sue, still tempted to rejoin the dark side of 1500 ;-P - Original Message - From: Becky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Have you seen this painting? I found the perfect dress for my fabric! That is about the closest I've found to any design for the fabric I have. Any idea of what kind of pattern I'd need to make it? http://www.tudor-portraits.com/ElenoraToledo5.jpg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
