Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Ohad Lutzky wrote: * An introduction to WiPeer, when (or perhaps more interestingly - while) it is being ported to Linux * Open formats - Opendocument and its implementation in various word processors, perhaps including MS's * Writing cross-platform software (I can already see the subtitle... or: why Firefox is so damned slow on Linux) * Something heavier - design principles comparison between the NT kernel and Unix-style kernels (please don't stone me :)) These are all great ideas for lectures. Any volunteers? Orna. -- Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda http://ladypine.org/ ICQ: 348759096 - Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
There are three ways to treat haifux: A) A FOSS/Linux club (an interesting debate on its own) - anything which is not FOSS or Linux-related is discouraged, as it's not in the charter B) Gabi's approach - it's all about knowledge - anything goes C) the golden ratio, where we usually are A, but if something vaguely related to Linux but really interesting comes up, we're B. I think that A is very restrictive, especially if windows drivers have to do with Linux. B is very problematic as well, especially as it just makes haifux a platform for courses in computers. This is not the aim of haifux. We are not haifumputers, we're haifux. C is of course the best way, given that we know when to bend the rules. How do we know when to bend the rules a little? if many haifuxers say it is OK, then I think it is OK (a common method in Judaism and Islam - if many believers do that, it can't be that bad). On 4/10/07, gabik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: I don't quite see how a talk about a proprietary OS fits Haifux's charter? Orna wrote: As I see it, Haifux is not an OS club. When the idea of having a lecture about Windows drivers was brought up, I (and others) objected for the same reason. I was very surprised to read this and would like to comment. First, I want to say that I do not feel that I have any right to tell you how to run Haifux, since I did nothing till far to establish or contribute to it. So I would only like to express my humble opinion on this, please. It is my personal opinion of how Haifux++ can be better than Haifux. Why free/not free, open source/not open source becomes a value by itself? Is it really so important that you are not ready to hear (not use) an interesting lecture about Windows? By turning it into a moral value, you make Linux a religion, which I assume you don't want to do. Is not it all about KNOWLEDGE? I am personally VERY much interested in Windows drivers and would very much like to hear such a lecture. AIX is goins without saying. I also propose (just propose, please don't kill me) to turn Haifux into an OS club. This is how I considered it to be till now. Best, Gabi Kliot -Original Message- From: Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:43 PM To: Eli Billauer Cc: Haifa Linux Club; Muli Ben-Yehuda; boazg Subject: Re: [Haifux] lecture proposal On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Eli Billauer wrote: Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:51:13 +0200 From: Eli Billauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Haifa Linux Club haifux@haifux.org Cc: Muli Ben-Yehuda [EMAIL PROTECTED], boazg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Haifux] lecture proposal Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: I don't quite see how a talk about a proprietary OS fits Haifux's charter? Lecture #79: Random numbers Lecure #81: Multilingual typesetting Lecture #95: Hebrew fonts Lecture #114-SIL: Intro to Alice, Bob and Eve: a glimpse of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Haifux' charter has always been that if there's an audience, there's a lecture. Eli There is a difference between general computer science topics, such as random numbers (btw, at the end of the lecture, /dev/random and /dev/urandom were discussed) and proprietary software. The Hebrew fonts were released under a free license, and are needed in order to view MS documents on a Linux system. The typesetting lecture was a broader topic of TeX, FOSS. We also hosted a lecture about CC. As I see it, Haifux is not an OS club. When the idea of having a lecture about Windows drivers was brought up, I (and others) objected for the same reason. I think lecture 6 is the only totally proprietary lecture we had, and this was indeed before my time. Orna. -- Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda http://ladypine.org/ ICQ: 348759096 - Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any human thing supposed to be complete, must for that reason infallibly be faulty -- Herman Melville, Moby Dick. Spammers: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~orrd/spam.html GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys.)
RE: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
I propose OS club. Not all Computer Science in general (for that me have the faculty, right?) B) Gabi's approach - it's all about knowledge - anything goes Not everything. Only OS and OS related (networking in OS is of course related (not routing protocols, but OS implementation of sockets for example) , Virtualization is related, Distributed is partly related. Crypto - I am not sure is very much related, but if you think it is - OK. Bioinformatics for example is for sure not related). Gabi _ From: Orr Dunkelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:16 PM To: gabik Cc: Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda; Eli Billauer; Haifa Linux Club; Muli Ben-Yehuda; boazg Subject: Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux There are three ways to treat haifux: A) A FOSS/Linux club (an interesting debate on its own) - anything which is not FOSS or Linux-related is discouraged, as it's not in the charter B) Gabi's approach - it's all about knowledge - anything goes C) the golden ratio, where we usually are A, but if something vaguely related to Linux but really interesting comes up, we're B. I think that A is very restrictive, especially if windows drivers have to do with Linux. B is very problematic as well, especially as it just makes haifux a platform for courses in computers. This is not the aim of haifux. We are not haifumputers, we're haifux. C is of course the best way, given that we know when to bend the rules. How do we know when to bend the rules a little? if many haifuxers say it is OK, then I think it is OK (a common method in Judaism and Islam - if many believers do that, it can't be that bad). On 4/10/07, gabik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: I don't quite see how a talk about a proprietary OS fits Haifux's charter? Orna wrote: As I see it, Haifux is not an OS club. When the idea of having a lecture about Windows drivers was brought up, I (and others) objected for the same reason. I was very surprised to read this and would like to comment. First, I want to say that I do not feel that I have any right to tell you how to run Haifux, since I did nothing till far to establish or contribute to it. So I would only like to express my humble opinion on this, please. It is my personal opinion of how Haifux++ can be better than Haifux. Why free/not free, open source/not open source becomes a value by itself? Is it really so important that you are not ready to hear (not use) an interesting lecture about Windows? By turning it into a moral value, you make Linux a religion, which I assume you don't want to do. Is not it all about KNOWLEDGE? I am personally VERY much interested in Windows drivers and would very much like to hear such a lecture. AIX is goins without saying. I also propose (just propose, please don't kill me) to turn Haifux into an OS club. This is how I considered it to be till now. Best, Gabi Kliot -Original Message- From: Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:43 PM To: Eli Billauer Cc: Haifa Linux Club; Muli Ben-Yehuda; boazg Subject: Re: [Haifux] lecture proposal On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Eli Billauer wrote: Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:51:13 +0200 From: Eli Billauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Haifa Linux Club haifux@haifux.org Cc: Muli Ben-Yehuda [EMAIL PROTECTED], boazg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Haifux] lecture proposal Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: I don't quite see how a talk about a proprietary OS fits Haifux's charter? Lecture #79: Random numbers Lecure #81: Multilingual typesetting Lecture #95: Hebrew fonts Lecture #114-SIL: Intro to Alice, Bob and Eve: a glimpse of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Haifux' charter has always been that if there's an audience, there's a lecture. Eli There is a difference between general computer science topics, such as random numbers (btw, at the end of the lecture, /dev/random and /dev/urandom were discussed) and proprietary software. The Hebrew fonts were released under a free license, and are needed in order to view MS documents on a Linux system. The typesetting lecture was a broader topic of TeX, FOSS. We also hosted a lecture about CC. As I see it, Haifux is not an OS club. When the idea of having a lecture about Windows drivers was brought up, I (and others) objected for the same reason. I think lecture 6 is the only totally proprietary lecture we had, and this was indeed before my time. Orna. -- Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda http://ladypine.org/ ICQ: 348759096 - Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Haifa Linux Club Mailing List ( http://www.haifux.org http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any human thing supposed
Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 06:26:01PM +0300, gabik wrote: I propose OS club. I think that's what clubsys is supposed to be... - Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
I think this is far from being the aim for Haifux. I recall the reason was to have a place where Linux developers can meet and work together... We've gone quite a way from there, but we are after all Haifux. Any lecture which is on advocating Linux, or even on user space experience in Linux (who wants to give a lecture about Gnome vs. KDE vs. the rest of the world?) is more than welcome. I'm not sure we are the forum for all OS related stuff. This is not the intention, and if we start to discuss only aspects related to OSes in Kernel level - I think we will no longer be called Haifux, but HaifOS. Just my 2 euro cents, Orr. On 4/10/07, gabik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I propose OS club. Not all Computer Science in general (for that me have the faculty, right?) B) Gabi's approach - it's all about knowledge - anything goes Not everything. Only OS and OS related (networking in OS is of course related (not routing protocols, but OS implementation of sockets for example) , Virtualization is related, Distributed is partly related. Crypto - I am not sure is very much related, but if you think it is - OK. Bioinformatics for example is for sure not related). Gabi -- *From:* Orr Dunkelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:16 PM *To:* gabik *Cc:* Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda; Eli Billauer; Haifa Linux Club; Muli Ben-Yehuda; boazg *Subject:* Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux There are three ways to treat haifux: A) A FOSS/Linux club (an interesting debate on its own) - anything which is not FOSS or Linux-related is discouraged, as it's not in the charter B) Gabi's approach - it's all about knowledge - anything goes C) the golden ratio, where we usually are A, but if something vaguely related to Linux but really interesting comes up, we're B. I think that A is very restrictive, especially if windows drivers have to do with Linux. B is very problematic as well, especially as it just makes haifux a platform for courses in computers. This is not the aim of haifux. We are not haifumputers, we're haifux. C is of course the best way, given that we know when to bend the rules. How do we know when to bend the rules a little? if many haifuxers say it is OK, then I think it is OK (a common method in Judaism and Islam - if many believers do that, it can't be that bad). On 4/10/07, gabik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: I don't quite see how a talk about a proprietary OS fits Haifux's charter? Orna wrote: As I see it, Haifux is not an OS club. When the idea of having a lecture about Windows drivers was brought up, I (and others) objected for the same reason. I was very surprised to read this and would like to comment. First, I want to say that I do not feel that I have any right to tell you how to run Haifux, since I did nothing till far to establish or contribute to it. So I would only like to express my humble opinion on this, please. It is my personal opinion of how Haifux++ can be better than Haifux. Why free/not free, open source/not open source becomes a value by itself? Is it really so important that you are not ready to hear (not use) an interesting lecture about Windows? By turning it into a moral value, you make Linux a religion, which I assume you don't want to do. Is not it all about KNOWLEDGE? I am personally VERY much interested in Windows drivers and would very much like to hear such a lecture. AIX is goins without saying. I also propose (just propose, please don't kill me) to turn Haifux into an OS club. This is how I considered it to be till now. Best, Gabi Kliot -Original Message- From: Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:43 PM To: Eli Billauer Cc: Haifa Linux Club; Muli Ben-Yehuda; boazg Subject: Re: [Haifux] lecture proposal On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Eli Billauer wrote: Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:51:13 +0200 From: Eli Billauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Haifa Linux Club haifux@haifux.org Cc: Muli Ben-Yehuda [EMAIL PROTECTED], boazg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Haifux] lecture proposal Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: I don't quite see how a talk about a proprietary OS fits Haifux's charter? Lecture #79: Random numbers Lecure #81: Multilingual typesetting Lecture #95: Hebrew fonts Lecture #114-SIL: Intro to Alice, Bob and Eve: a glimpse of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Haifux' charter has always been that if there's an audience, there's a lecture. Eli There is a difference between general computer science topics, such as random numbers (btw, at the end of the lecture, /dev/random and /dev/urandom were discussed) and proprietary software. The Hebrew fonts were released under a free license, and are needed in order to view MS documents on a Linux system. The typesetting lecture was a broader topic of TeX, FOSS. We also hosted a lecture about CC. As I see it, Haifux is not an OS club
RE: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
Hi Clubsys is highly academic and theoretical. They will not allow lecture on dirty, system-level details, which is what interests us, the engineers, I suppose. :) Plus, Clubsys is not functional for the last half of the year. There is Clubnet in EE as well, but is it mostly theoretical as well. Gabi -Original Message- From: Muli Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:32 PM To: gabik Cc: 'Haifa Linux Club'; 'Orr Dunkelman' Subject: Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 06:26:01PM +0300, gabik wrote: I propose OS club. I think that's what clubsys is supposed to be... - Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
OK. Lectures on configuring WiFi cards in Windows is obviously out of the scope of the club (again, this is Haifux, if people want to have Haifwin, HaifOS, or any other club - they are welcome to start it). If there is some lesson about that for Linux, then it might fit, but otherwise - it's not in the scope. The same goes for other complicated P2P or ad hoc networks. If this enlighten us about how our Linux behaves (how ad-hoc networks are established), then it's interesting and in the scope. Otherwise (this is a propietery Windows protocol which you acnnot connect in Linux, and you will never be able to connect from Linux) this is outside the scope of the club. Orr. On 4/10/07, gabik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But why should we concentrate on kernel only? For example, would not you like to hear a lecture about WiPeer http://www.wipeer.com/.: Lecture about the challenge of programmatically configuring your WiFi card on Windows, about our way to structure a complicated P2P software, about ad hoc networking in general, ... (I am not currently proposing to give such a lecture, just asking your general opinion about the interest level). Gabi -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any human thing supposed to be complete, must for that reason infallibly be faulty -- Herman Melville, Moby Dick. Spammers: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~orrd/spam.html GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys.)
RE: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
OK. I fully accept it. It is your club. I just proposed to change it from Haifux to HaifOS. Or leave it as Haifux but be more patient to other, different OSes as well. you will never be able to connect from Linux Of course you will. When we find time to port it to Linux. You see - it is not against Linux. It is just being practical and trying to benefit the most people you can with your limited time resources. Gabi _ From: Orr Dunkelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 7:36 PM To: gabik Cc: Haifa Linux Club Subject: Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux OK. Lectures on configuring WiFi cards in Windows is obviously out of the scope of the club (again, this is Haifux, if people want to have Haifwin, HaifOS, or any other club - they are welcome to start it). If there is some lesson about that for Linux, then it might fit, but otherwise - it's not in the scope. The same goes for other complicated P2P or ad hoc networks. If this enlighten us about how our Linux behaves (how ad-hoc networks are established), then it's interesting and in the scope. Otherwise (this is a propietery Windows protocol which you acnnot connect in Linux, and you will never be able to connect from Linux) this is outside the scope of the club. Orr. On 4/10/07, gabik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But why should we concentrate on kernel only? For example, would not you like to hear a lecture about WiPeer http://www.wipeer.com/.: Lecture about the challenge of programmatically configuring your WiFi card on Windows, about our way to structure a complicated P2P software, about ad hoc networking in general, ... (I am not currently proposing to give such a lecture, just asking your general opinion about the interest level). Gabi -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Any human thing supposed to be complete, must for that reason infallibly be faulty -- Herman Melville, Moby Dick. Spammers: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~orrd/spam.html http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~orrd/spam.html GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys.)
Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
This is not my club. This is the people's club. However, this is haifux. The mailing list is handled by hamakor's website, the domain is paid by hamakor, and the website will eventually go there as well, so _this_ will remain haifux. If someone wishes to start another forum which has different interests - I will not be against it, just hope they'll be kind enough to pick a different day of the week. And all in all we are very tolerant towards other OSes, the AIX lecture will be scheduled (once the lecturer gives his consent on a date), we had an open solaris lecture, and even a freebsd one. Even windows' drivers and NDIS emulation might be an interesting topic (anyone willing to give such a lecture?). Orr. On 4/10/07, gabik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK. I fully accept it. It is your club. I just proposed to change it from Haifux to HaifOS. Or leave it as Haifux but be more patient to other, different OSes as well. you will never be able to connect from Linux Of course you will. When we find time to port it to Linux. You see - it is not against Linux. It is just being practical and trying to benefit the most people you can with your limited time resources. Gabi -- *From:* Orr Dunkelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Tuesday, April 10, 2007 7:36 PM *To:* gabik *Cc:* Haifa Linux Club *Subject:* Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux OK. Lectures on configuring WiFi cards in Windows is obviously out of the scope of the club (again, this is Haifux, if people want to have Haifwin, HaifOS, or any other club - they are welcome to start it). If there is some lesson about that for Linux, then it might fit, but otherwise - it's not in the scope. The same goes for other complicated P2P or ad hoc networks. If this enlighten us about how our Linux behaves (how ad-hoc networks are established), then it's interesting and in the scope. Otherwise (this is a propietery Windows protocol which you acnnot connect in Linux, and you will never be able to connect from Linux) this is outside the scope of the club. Orr. On 4/10/07, gabik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But why should we concentrate on kernel only? For example, would not you like to hear a lecture about WiPeer http://www.wipeer.com/.: Lecture about the challenge of programmatically configuring your WiFi card on Windows, about our way to structure a complicated P2P software, about ad hoc networking in general, ... (I am not currently proposing to give such a lecture, just asking your general opinion about the interest level). Gabi -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any human thing supposed to be complete, must for that reason infallibly be faulty -- Herman Melville, Moby Dick. Spammers: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~orrd/spam.html http://vipe.technion.ac.il/%7Eorrd/spam.html GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys.) -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any human thing supposed to be complete, must for that reason infallibly be faulty -- Herman Melville, Moby Dick. Spammers: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~orrd/spam.html GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys.)
Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 07:11:09PM +0300, gabik wrote: Hi Clubsys is highly academic and theoretical. They will not allow lecture on dirty, system-level details, which is what interests us, the engineers, I suppose. :) That's too bad... it's not like there's been a wealth of clubsys lectures. Have you tried talking with the organizers? in my several years of experience organizing such seminars, seminar organizers rarely say no to offers of help, especially if they're accompanied by a suggestion to lecture. I would love to see an OS club in the Technion --- but I don't think Haifux should be it. FWIW I am co-organizer of a weekly Systems and Storage Research Seminar at IBM's Haifa Research Lab, which has OS lectures fairly often. Email me privately if you'd like to be added to the announcement list. Cheers, Muli - Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Windows in Haifux
Just a few more points to throw in here - In the short time I've been in Haifux, it's been mostly a 'vote-with-your-feet' club. People show up to lectures which interest them, and speak in favor of them on the mailing list. The reason, I believe, we mostly have our tight-knit linux-related lectures (taking all three terms with a grain of salt), is that the topics we choose grow mostly out of the heavily community-oriented Linux/F/OSS... er... community. That is, where Microsoft might [send someone to] give a lecture about .NET, the body to give a lecture about upcoming versions of Perl, for example, would be the perl mongrels themselves. Therefore, the other-OS-tolerance is there, just on different topics. So while a lecture about here's how wireless networking drivers work in Windows wouldn't be so interesting, I believe, to Haifux-goers, a lecture about here's how to get Windows wireless networking drivers to work in Linux using ndiswrapper - which would certainly include parts of the former - would be very interesting to many of us. Other lectures which might be of interest, of relation to this topic are (off the top of my head) - * An introduction to WiPeer, when (or perhaps more interestingly - while) it is being ported to Linux * Open formats - Opendocument and its implementation in various word processors, perhaps including MS's * Writing cross-platform software (I can already see the subtitle... or: why Firefox is so damned slow on Linux) * Something heavier - design principles comparison between the NT kernel and Unix-style kernels (please don't stone me :)) -- Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm Ohad Lutzky - Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
