Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Because I must intelligently design my ass down to Virginia for the weekend past the cities and towns to a place that evolution runs in reverse down to about 13 kbps. 1) Tho I would have liked too, I didn't express my view on this subject, it is not my place. My place needs to be neutral sometimes whether I like it or not. This is one of them times. 2) 3 days are up. This thread started Tuesday about noon. 3) How can everyone respond to me when I post a Happy Holidays to EVERYONE if they are busy arguing over Christian and non-christian beliefs? 4) Ok, why happy holidays, well because the list has Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists on it. I am not sure of your religionxmas connection but I am sure that everyone likes days off with pay. Them be holidays, them be happy to me. 5) The 3 day rule is in effect so if that is a problem then, I can turn the list off for the 3 days I am gone with family, friends and beer in the middle of nowhere and we will not be able to start an Ipod, MP3 player argument after we open presents. 6) and that is that At 12/24/2005 01:47 AM, Stan Zaske wrote: Well, Merry Christmas to you too! Why don't you ban yourself if you can't handle the fact that others may not share your viewpoint on everything. How very Republican and Conservative Christian of you to exclude those who don't bow down to you and fall into line like good little troopers! Scrooge! @:( Greg Sevart wrote: At 12:50 PM 12/23/2005, you wrote: Look, this thread needs to die asap. Thank you! Ditto. Can we just ban those that do not heed? :) Marked -OT- or not, this one had no place on this list. Shame on everyone. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.7/214 - Release Date: 12/23/2005
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 12:13 AM 12/23/2005, Pat Robertson typed: Because abortion has absolutely nothing to do with fairy tales? Since when do you need to worship cloud men in order to determine if you personally find aborting fetuses to be immoral? I really have disgust for those who assume that only by instilling fairy tales does one have moral guidance. It is a real undermining of the human mind to overlook the sense of morality built in at the genetic level. I don't need a book to tell me that killing is wrong. Even the most learned psychologists psychiatrists who btw are usually atheists agree that story telling to the young is one of the best way to communicate ideas to them. I also strongly disagree that humans have a morality code built in. Try making a study of morality in our prison system some time. Many inmates turn to religion as easy way to chalk up points with the parole board but you'll find that the ones that actually reform enough not to be a nuisance to society after they get out are predominantly religious in their private lives. All of us have demons within that we must keep in the background. Sure the demons aren't usually a bright red man with pointy ears a pitch fork but that doesn't mean an evil doesn't lurk within us either after all humans are animals. Have you heard the one about the 3 monkeys in a tree discussing humans? Thank you Gary for your posts in this thread. --+-- Wayne D. Johnson Ashland, OH, USA 44805 http://www.wavijo.com
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 02:08 AM 23/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: I applaud you for your pro-life stance. But let's do a reality check. Of those who are anti-abortion, what percent do you suppose are religious? I think it's very high, probably 80% or better. What does that prove? That religious people are anti-choice and want to force their set of morals down everyone's throats? Or that they are just sheep, following whatever their leaders say? Or that people who don't think for themselves and want to force their worldview down everyone else's throats are also religious? If you ask ten people who don't go to church if they consider themselves religious and/or believe in god, I'll bet most would say yes. But if that is actually true, why are they so anti-religious in their daily actions? I'm guessing most people either feel they MUST say they are religious, or use religion as a salve to cover their own guilty consciences. T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 02:23 AM 23/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: 1. You believe in God and he really exists. Outcome: You'll win big. Unless he's a nasty bastard who decides to inflict painful cancer on you and then you die while not in a state of grace and go to hell. You lose big time and you believed for nothing. 2. You believe in God but he doesn't exist. Outcome: you haven't lost much. Except that you wasted your life going to church and following a bunch of largely man made rules that often make little sense. I consider this a small loss on your part. 3. You don't believe in God and he doesn't exist. Outcome: a draw. No, this is a win for you. You get to live your life as YOU wish, and then you die. 4. You don't believe in God and he exists. Outcome: You lose big time. Unless he really is total love as the bible suggests. Then you get to live life the way you choose and he forgives you and you get into heaven. Now that would be a nice win. And you're forgetting: 5. You believe in god, and live your life by his rules, but when you die, it turns you worshipped the wrong god, and the one you meet kicks you into hell because you didn't follow him. 6. You believe in god just to cover your ass (they way most people do.) He exists, you die, and he says Sorry, CYA actions aren't covered. You go to hell. T
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 03:13 AM 23/12/2005, Neil Atwood wrote: We are dealing with matters of truth here. Either something is true or it is not. There is discoverable truth about Jesus, because he was a real historical figure, and therefore we can employ the same approach to examining him and his claims as we do any historical figure. Ok, I find this direction interesting. Is there any proof of the existance of Jesus other than the Bible? One thing is very, very clear: Jesus claimed to be the incarnate Son of God, and any other conclusion as to his nature and role was unacceptable to him. So, if you want a discussion about that, we have to start there and use the best source material available: the Bible. But isn't using the Bible to prove the validity of Jesus' arguments like using political pamphlet to prove the validity of that party's views? T
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
What do you mean worshipped the wrong God? There is only one Mark Dodge MD Computers 360-772-2433 And you're forgetting: 5. You believe in god, and live your life by his rules, but when you die, it turns you worshipped the wrong god, and the one you meet kicks you into hell because you didn't follow him.
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 09:16 AM 23/12/2005, Mark Dodge wrote: What do you mean worshipped the wrong God? There is only one Not according to a heck of a lot of religions. The idea that there is only one god is a new and untested theory. And even if there is only one, if the Jews are right, then the Christians are wrong, etc. T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
[merry|happy] [christmas|hannukah|kwanzaa|winter solstice|new years|humbugging] Here's to the best god we ever made. http://masterhit.dyndns.org/paradise.mp3 Al
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Here is one for the Evolution crowd: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10574901/from/RS.1/ 007 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Al Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 9:00 AM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge [merry|happy] [christmas|hannukah|kwanzaa|winter solstice|new years|humbugging] Here's to the best god we ever made. http://masterhit.dyndns.org/paradise.mp3 Al
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
- Original Message - From: Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Hardware List' hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge 1. You believe in God and he really exists. Outcome: You'll win big. I will comment on #1. and if the shoe fits wear it. Some of you who expressed beliefs in God said that our limitations as humans keeps us from fully understanding God and what he will do. I like to think he has allowed humans over 6000 years on earth to produce enough people to voluntarily worship and serve him (no robots). Then he puts his main opposer, Satan and Satan's angels out of commission. Then he looks deep into the heart of each individual living and kills those he (no human judges here!) sees loves him and will voluntarily worship him and follow instructions and do no harm to their fellow humans, but only do good towards all. Then, in an orderly fashion he resurrects (already illustrated by Jesus resurrecting and healing people) all those who he (by already having locked their information into his memory) knows will live and perform the same as those he let live when he dropped the big hammer on the evil ones. Again, no robots. If those who said that we can not fully comprehend how God operates can have full confidence that God will make things right, then who cares if he uses my theory as presented here or some other method to bring wonderful condiditons to the earth? Those who feel God is a supernatural visitor who resides on another planet are severely limiting their view of Him by the limitations of citizens of other planets, no matter how far ahead of us they are in technology. Ok, write me off as being a nut if you wish, but consider this! We are in such deep doo doo having ruined our home (the earth) and are so involved in killing each other off (instead of finding ways to help each other) that if somebody who has lots more power than we do does not come and rescue us soon, we are goners as a population. What good would it do to come patch up our environment and leave those who live to harm others here to continue their bad deeds? As for the doomsdayers (those of us who feel life as we know it is coming to an end real quick) we can afford to be wrong in feeling the end is coming soon, as long as we are prepared. For those who are not right with God and thus unprepared, can they afford to be wrong in feeling it will not come in decades or centuries? Only God knows! 2. You believe in God but he doesn't exist. Outcome: you haven't lost much. 3. You don't believe in God and he doesn't exist. Outcome: a draw. 4. You don't believe in God and he exists. Outcome: You lose big time.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Satan's angels out of commission. Then he looks deep into the heart of each individual living and kills those he (no human judges here!) sees loves him and will voluntarily worship him and follow instructions and do no harm to Correction here. He kills the bad guys, not the good ones. Most of you caught my error. Chuck
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: Wayne Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 06:00:48 -0500 Even the most learned psychologists psychiatrists who btw are usually atheists agree that story telling to the young is one of the best way to communicate ideas to them. I also strongly disagree that humans have a morality code built in. Try making a study of morality in our prison system some time. Many inmates turn to religion as easy way to chalk up points with the parole board but you'll find that the ones that actually reform enough not to be a nuisance to society after they get out are predominantly religious in their private lives. All of us have demons within that we must keep in the background. Sure the demons aren't usually a bright red man with pointy ears a pitch fork but that doesn't mean an evil doesn't lurk within us either after all humans are animals. Have you heard the one about the 3 monkeys in a tree discussing humans? You seem to have very little confidence in what a normal, non-deranged, non-psycho human mind is capable of. The fact we are wired to fall in love with a mate, protect the family and normally do not go around killing innocent people is an elementary example of a sense of morality built in. Books and the government do not need to instill this in most people. I suggest you find a better example to counter with than incarcerated felons.
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: Thane Sherrington (S) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:31:05 -0400 At 03:13 AM 23/12/2005, Neil Atwood wrote: We are dealing with matters of truth here. Either something is true or it is not. There is discoverable truth about Jesus, because he was a real historical figure, and therefore we can employ the same approach to examining him and his claims as we do any historical figure. Ok, I find this direction interesting. Is there any proof of the existance of Jesus other than the Bible? The evidence is very sparse. The gospels actually hint that he may be a mythical figure. But really - who *WAS* documented extensively in those days other than Roman leaders? Josephus mentions his life but also mentions he had a brother (forget the name).
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: Mark Dodge [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: 'The Hardware List' hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:16:21 -0800 What do you mean worshipped the wrong God? There is only one According to you. Many other religious people outside of judeo-chirstianity have quite a few.
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: Thane Sherrington (S) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:00:24 -0400 While it's true that very few people were carefully documented in those times, there is a fair bit of correspondence available from the time, and one would think that someone who raised the dead and walked on water would have attracted some level of attention. :) Well his story spread just like any other event through the have-not class, word of mouth. It's not like Rabbi Jesus could afford his own biographer or that Rome Publishing (TM) would issue a cash advance on a book deal concerning the musing of a petty jewish carpenter.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
If you ask ten people who don't go to church if they consider themselves religious and/or believe in god, I'll bet most would say yes. But if that is actually true, why are they so anti-religious in their daily actions? I'm guessing most people either feel they MUST say they are religious, or use religion as a salve to cover their own guilty consciences. There's a lot of truth in what you say. There are many different degrees of religious belief, and for some people it is only a thin veneer. In the end, each one of us will have to stand in front of the Judgment seat and our actual adherence to Jesus' teachings will be revealed. Here's a quote from Jesus, talking about eternal life: For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:14, RSV) and elsewhere: Unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3) I think what he is saying is that the way of salvation was purposefully made difficult to accept, requiring child-like faith, and a non-reliance upon acquired wealth, intellect, or degree of scientific knowledge. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
6. You believe in god just to cover your ass (they way most people do.) He exists, you die, and he says Sorry, CYA actions aren't covered. You go to hell. I agree with that scenario. Outward appearance doesn't count. By their fruits ye shall know them. I brought up Pascal's Wager not because I believe in it but because it tends to stimulate thoughts about eternity in unbelievers. :-) Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Gary VanderMolen wrote: If you ask ten people who don't go to church if they consider themselves religious and/or believe in god, I'll bet most would say yes. But if that is actually true, why are they so anti-religious in their daily actions? I'm guessing most people either feel they MUST say they are religious, or use religion as a salve to cover their own guilty consciences. There's a lot of truth in what you say. There are many different degrees of religious belief, and for some people it is only a thin veneer. In the end, each one of us will have to stand in front of the Judgment seat and our actual adherence to Jesus' teachings will be revealed. Here's a quote from Jesus, talking about eternal life: For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:14, RSV) and elsewhere: Unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3) I think what he is saying is that the way of salvation was purposefully made difficult to accept, requiring child-like faith, and a non-reliance upon acquired wealth, intellect, or degree of scientific knowledge. Gary VanderMolen I have been following this thread with no comment to date. Here is my 2 cents: I believe there are very few Christians. Ones that really live the life Jesus taught. There are numerous ones that speak it. The same can be said for Muslims, Jews, Budhists and the rest of them. Whether they believe in Evolution or Intelligent design is another matter. I think most of them parrot what they think their peers expect of them. Not too many of them are capable of independant thinking and scientific analysis. A great example is President Bush. We would not be in the terrible situation we find ourselves in if he was a real CHRISTIAN that he claims he is. A person who lived Jesus teachings could not slaughter innocent people. And he would not have a foe. The human race has not evolved enough or Intelligent Design was a failure. Sam
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
I'd like to think that if God is real he made the Universe into a giant petri dish just to see what would result and I seriously doubt he gives a Rat's ass about you and me personally. On the level of species he might find the Human Race mildly interesting. @:D Looking at the universe, it's pretty clear that it's random and arbitrary. Perhaps. We don't know enough about the universe to declare that it's truly random. We also don't know what lies outside the known universe, or what existed prior to the start of the current universe. I think it's reasonable to conclude that if there is an intelligent force that created it/guides it, then it's worldview is also random and arbitrary (at least by our standards.) One doesn't follow from the other. Randomness in the universe may be required by some gravitational law or string theory that we're not aware of yet. This would not prevent God from selecting one planet (Earth) for some special purpose. So far scientists haven't found a shred of evidence that life exists on other planets. Earth sounds pretty special to me. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Ok, I find this direction interesting. Is there any proof of the existance of Jesus other than the Bible? There was at least one contemporary historian, Flavius Josephus, who mentioned Jesus. There were thousands of eye witnesses whose lives were changed and who went out and told those happenings to the rest of the world. Some of those eye witnesses (one a physician) wrote their recollections in books we now call the Gospels. Those books have been subjected to numerous textual critical analyses, and are generally accepted as genuine. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
I don't know why scientists think it helps to prove evolution because there is only a 4 percent difference between human and chimpanzee DNA. It's called economy of design. Why reinvent the wheel each time? There's only a one atom difference between harmless carbon dioxide and deadly carbon monoxide. Gary VanderMolen - Original Message - Here is one for the Evolution crowd: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10574901/from/RS.1/
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Sherrington (S) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 23 December 2005 10:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; The Hardware List Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge At 03:13 AM 23/12/2005, Neil Atwood wrote: We are dealing with matters of truth here. Either something is true or it is not. There is discoverable truth about Jesus, because he was a real historical figure, and therefore we can employ the same approach to examining him and his claims as we do any historical figure. Ok, I find this direction interesting. Is there any proof of the existance of Jesus other than the Bible? One thing is very, very clear: Jesus claimed to be the incarnate Son of God, and any other conclusion as to his nature and role was unacceptable to him. So, if you want a discussion about that, we have to start there and use the best source material available: the Bible. But isn't using the Bible to prove the validity of Jesus' arguments like using political pamphlet to prove the validity of that party's views? T
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Look, this thread needs to die asap.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 12:50 PM 12/23/2005, you wrote: Look, this thread needs to die asap. Thank you! Ditto. Can we just ban those that do not heed? :) Marked -OT- or not, this one had no place on this list. Shame on everyone.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Marked -OT- or not, this one had no place on this list. Shame on everyone. Apparently you're not familiar with the traditions of this list. Most OT threads are allowed to run three days, after which the moderator calls a halt. In the mean time, you can configure your email client to ignore the thread. Many of us enjoy an occasional OT thread, as long as it is respectful and interesting. Gary VanderMolen
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
On 23 Dec 2005 at 18:13, Neil Atwood wrote: One thing is very, very clear: Jesus claimed to be the incarnate Son of God, and any other conclusion as to his nature and role was unacceptable to him. So, if you want a discussion about that, we have to start there and use the best source material available: the Bible. I would be careful about taking a bible literally: * The bible states that slavery is OK as long as it involves people from foreign lands * The bible considers women as property * The bible states you cannot wear clothes made of two different types of fabric * The bible states that one cannot separate fruit from the seed on the Sabbath, which means you cant eat watermelon on Sunday * The biblical reference to not engaging in homosexual acts only refers to men, not women (apparently God has the same rule as the Playboy Mansion) Vince
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
This thread needs to end.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: Sam Franc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:26:00 -0800 A great example is President Bush. We would not be in the terrible situation we find ourselves in if he was a real CHRISTIAN that he claims he is. A person who lived Jesus teachings could not slaughter innocent people. And he would not have a foe. The human race has not evolved enough or Intelligent Design was a failure. Sam POST OF THE YEAR.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
This is exactly right! We are all hypocrites saying what our peers expect of us so that we may belong to the tribe. Sad to say but true! @:( Sam Franc wrote: Gary VanderMolen wrote: If you ask ten people who don't go to church if they consider themselves religious and/or believe in god, I'll bet most would say yes. But if that is actually true, why are they so anti-religious in their daily actions? I'm guessing most people either feel they MUST say they are religious, or use religion as a salve to cover their own guilty consciences. There's a lot of truth in what you say. There are many different degrees of religious belief, and for some people it is only a thin veneer. In the end, each one of us will have to stand in front of the Judgment seat and our actual adherence to Jesus' teachings will be revealed. Here's a quote from Jesus, talking about eternal life: For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:14, RSV) and elsewhere: Unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3) I think what he is saying is that the way of salvation was purposefully made difficult to accept, requiring child-like faith, and a non-reliance upon acquired wealth, intellect, or degree of scientific knowledge. Gary VanderMolen I have been following this thread with no comment to date. Here is my 2 cents: I believe there are very few Christians. Ones that really live the life Jesus taught. There are numerous ones that speak it. The same can be said for Muslims, Jews, Budhists and the rest of them. Whether they believe in Evolution or Intelligent design is another matter. I think most of them parrot what they think their peers expect of them. Not too many of them are capable of independant thinking and scientific analysis. A great example is President Bush. We would not be in the terrible situation we find ourselves in if he was a real CHRISTIAN that he claims he is. A person who lived Jesus teachings could not slaughter innocent people. And he would not have a foe. The human race has not evolved enough or Intelligent Design was a failure. Sam
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Earth is like a precious jewel on a sheet of black velvet! No matter how many other life-bearing planets there are in the Universe there is certainly no other exactly like it. That makes us rather precious as well. Too bad we can't see the forest for the trees. @:| Gary VanderMolen wrote: I'd like to think that if God is real he made the Universe into a giant petri dish just to see what would result and I seriously doubt he gives a Rat's ass about you and me personally. On the level of species he might find the Human Race mildly interesting. @:D Looking at the universe, it's pretty clear that it's random and arbitrary. Perhaps. We don't know enough about the universe to declare that it's truly random. We also don't know what lies outside the known universe, or what existed prior to the start of the current universe. I think it's reasonable to conclude that if there is an intelligent force that created it/guides it, then it's worldview is also random and arbitrary (at least by our standards.) One doesn't follow from the other. Randomness in the universe may be required by some gravitational law or string theory that we're not aware of yet. This would not prevent God from selecting one planet (Earth) for some special purpose. So far scientists haven't found a shred of evidence that life exists on other planets. Earth sounds pretty special to me. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Don't you think you just invalidated your argument by pointing out the fact that Humans and Chimps are almost the same? In fact, Humans and Chimps are genetically closer than Chimps and Gorillas or Gorillas and Orangutans. How can we call ourselves divine when we clearly are animals ourselves? Bye the way, it's only 2% difference. @:) Gary VanderMolen wrote: I don't know why scientists think it helps to prove evolution because there is only a 4 percent difference between human and chimpanzee DNA. It's called economy of design. Why reinvent the wheel each time? There's only a one atom difference between harmless carbon dioxide and deadly carbon monoxide. Gary VanderMolen - Original Message - Here is one for the Evolution crowd: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10574901/from/RS.1/
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Well, Merry Christmas to you too! Why don't you ban yourself if you can't handle the fact that others may not share your viewpoint on everything. How very Republican and Conservative Christian of you to exclude those who don't bow down to you and fall into line like good little troopers! Scrooge! @:( Greg Sevart wrote: At 12:50 PM 12/23/2005, you wrote: Look, this thread needs to die asap. Thank you! Ditto. Can we just ban those that do not heed? :) Marked -OT- or not, this one had no place on this list. Shame on everyone.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
I'd say it's been 3 days myself. Merry Christmas to all! @:D Wayne Johnson wrote: At 04:37 PM 12/23/2005, Greg Sevart typed: Marked -OT- or not, this one had no place on this list. Shame on everyone. Why this OT thread is any different than the other OT threads is beyond me but I suspect the 3 day rule for OT threads should be kicking in about now anyway. Have a very Merry Christmas. --+-- Wayne D. Johnson Ashland, OH, USA 44805 http://www.wavijo.com
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 11:25 PM 21/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: Ok, let's for a minute assume that the Creator did build the human body to last forever in perfect health. And let's assume that he prevents it from functioning that way for some reason. That doesn't make him benevolent. In fact, it makes him a really nasty bastard. I'd pass on worshipping that sort of diety. Read the story of Adam and Eve in the garden. It's called having free will, and making the wrong choice. LOL! So let me get this straight. You are willing worship a being who sets up two humans with a test he knows they'll fail (he is omniscient, after all) then when they fail, punishes them AND all their descendants. Screw that. I'll stick with my Norse gods and a bit of human sacrifice. At least one can appease them. grin T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 02:56 AM 22/12/2005, Stan Zaske wrote: God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (apples you know) in the garden and then made sure that Adam and Eve knew about it. He knew that Satan would go to the garden and tempt Eve. He knew that Satan could charm the chrome off a steel bumper and that Eve would easily succumb. He knew that Eve could talk Adam into anything simply because the little head is more powerful than the big head. Clear so far? The Gnostics believed that the story is backward. The snake is God and God is Satan. Makes a hell of a lot more sense that way, but it does mean that the real god is weaker than Satan. T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Read the story of Adam and Eve in the garden. It's called having free will, and making the wrong choice. LOL! So let me get this straight. You are willing worship a being who sets up two humans with a test he knows they'll fail (he is omniscient, after all) then when they fail, punishes them AND all their descendants. Screw that. I'll stick with my Norse gods and a bit of human sacrifice. At least one can appease them. grin It's difficult for humans to understand an entity like God and all that entails. Let me just say that God having foreknowledge of the outcome of an event does not preclude it being a fair test, nor does it mean that humans aren't responsible for their choices in life. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 01:39 PM 22/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: It's difficult for humans to understand an entity like God and all that entails. Let me just say that God having foreknowledge of the outcome of an event does not preclude it being a fair test, nor does it mean that humans aren't responsible for their choices in life. No offense, but that's not an argument, that's an excuse. If we aren't supposed to use logic, why give us logic? Oh wait, because we aren't supposed to understand god. T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:39:16 -0800 It's difficult for humans to understand an entity like God and all that entails. It's pretty easy to understand as the idea spawned from the mind of feeble dolts over 5,000 years ago who turn to fairy tales about cloud men rather than investigation for life's answers. God - the world's longest running chain-letter troll. Should have been the first entry on Snopes.com. I can't believe humanity still clings to such an ass-backward ignorant view of the world. For a century or so since Nietzsche, popular culture in the West has operated according to an uneasy truce, in which God both is and is not dead. We teach our children the evidence-based materialism of science and tell them they can believe in God and a faith-based morality in their spare time if they like. And in some parts of the country, we celebrate Scopes as a victory over ignorance, while still insisting that we do not also celebrate it as a victory over religion. What these endless Scopes sequels tell us is that somewhere many years from now we're going to hit a fork in the road, beyond which this have-it-both-ways philosophy isn't going to fly anymore.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
It's difficult for humans to understand an entity like God and all that entails. Let me just say that God having foreknowledge of the outcome of an event does not preclude it being a fair test, nor does it mean that humans aren't responsible for their choices in life. No offense, but that's not an argument, that's an excuse. If we aren't supposed to use logic, why give us logic? Oh wait, because we aren't supposed to understand god. Of course we are supposed to use the (limited) logic we have. Even ants have logic, but can you explain the theory of relativity to an ant? Humans may be a little smarter than ants, but our capability to understand things like higher dimensions is very limited. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 03:24 PM 22/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: Of course we are supposed to use the (limited) logic we have. Even ants have logic, but can you explain the theory of relativity to an ant? Humans may be a little smarter than ants, but our capability to understand things like higher dimensions is very limited. But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Of course we are supposed to use the (limited) logic we have. Even ants have logic, but can you explain the theory of relativity to an ant? Humans may be a little smarter than ants, but our capability to understand things like higher dimensions is very limited. But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. And your point is...? Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 03:49 PM 22/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: Of course we are supposed to use the (limited) logic we have. Even ants have logic, but can you explain the theory of relativity to an ant? Humans may be a little smarter than ants, but our capability to understand things like higher dimensions is very limited. But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. And your point is...? That your argument that one can't compare the relationship between an ant and a human and the supposed relationship between man and god. Saying that ants don't understand what we are doing (which is a conclusion you have no proof of, btw) and therefore we shouldn't expect to have any understanding of god makes no sense, and isn't an argument. T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. And your point is...? God is evil? (can't say I disagree, if he does exist, that means the bastard put disease and religion on the world) Christopher Fisk -- Leela: Well, someone's in a good mode.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 03:49 PM 22/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: Of course we are supposed to use the (limited) logic we have. Even ants have logic, but can you explain the theory of relativity to an ant? Humans may be a little smarter than ants, but our capability to understand things like higher dimensions is very limited. But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. And your point is...? That your argument that one can't compare the relationship between an ant and a human and the supposed relationship between man and god. My argument is that the difference in intelligence level between man and ant is at least as large as the difference between man and God. Since it's no surprise that the ant can't understand man's designs, so likewise it should be no surprise that man can't fully understand or appreciate God's designs. Saying that ants don't understand what we are doing (which is a conclusion you have no proof of, btw) and therefore we shouldn't expect to have any understanding of god makes no sense, and isn't an argument. I never said that we don't have any understanding of God. Our understanding of him is limited, because humans are not omniscient. It is presumptive of us to sit in judgment of God when we don't have all the facts. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Look back to the time when religion was pretty much dominant, prior to the Enlightenment. At the time, the church thought they knew *everything* - the church claimed knowledge of everything from the initial construction of the universe right down to microscopic questions of human morality (masturbation and so forth). As science has advanced, mankind's awareness of the general size and scope of this universe has become more accurate - that is to say, mankind has started to realise that the arrogance of its religious phase is, quite frankly, laughable in light of how things in this universe have turned out to work. As science advances, it's true that more questions appear over time. But the key thing to realise is that these questions *stem from* scientific discovery. We wouldn't be *asking* questions about the human genotype if we were still in the Middle Ages and we all thought we knew, solidly, that we had been hand-moulded by God from a lump of clay on a riverbank, would we? There is no doubt that the church organization became corrupt many times in the past two thousand years, leading to Protestant revolutions among other things. Yet it is hard to fault the church for believing in the status quo as far as what was known about scientific matters at that time. To keep this conversation on a level keel, let's not rehash what happened in the distant past. Science is not the manifestation of mankind's arrogance - the all-pervasive belief systems of the major monotheistic religions are. Religion's major thrust and influence is not in the scientific realm. There is a vast middle ground between creation only and the view that life sprang by chance from nothing but a pool of primordial chemicals. If your theory were true, no one with more than a simple high school education would believe in religion. You'd be surprised. There are people who truly believe and those who simply appease their parents, or pick and choose what they believe is bullshit (aka too cowardly to say they are not religious). 1000 years from now judea christian myths will be tought in junior high school clases like the Greek myths are tought today. Fascinating intricate storylines with a moral message or explanation of how the world works but in the end perceived just as that, a story. That's purely wishful thinking. Scientific Field polls since the '50s indicate that the percentage of people identifying themselves as religious has kept relatively constant over the years. If (as you indicate) people are turning less religious over time, why do you suppose that Roe V. Wade may actually be overturned soon, for the first time in 33 years? Gary VanderMolen
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
-Original Message- From: Gary VanderMolen If (as you indicate) people are turning less religious over time, why do you suppose that Roe V. Wade may actually be overturned soon, for the first time in 33 years? Gary VanderMolen Roe v. Wade is not a strictly religious issue. Many people oppose abortion on moral (which is not the same as religious) grounds. Morality does not require religion, just as it seems that religion does not require morality. Jim Maki [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Personally if religion makes you burn people at the stake, start wars, keep people ignorant, lock your women up abuse them etc, it's fails the sniff test. You paint with too broad a brush. Those are not things happening today, or in this country. I can cite plenty of non-religious people committing atrocities, what would that prove? If those are things you want to do, then at least be honest and say your doing so because you don't want people with other values possibly over running your part of the planet. The fact is that most charitable organizations today are faith-based, the Salvation Army being just one of those. They don't get a whole lot of press because the things a few misguided zealots do is a lot more newsworthy. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. And your point is...? God is evil? (can't say I disagree, if he does exist, that means the bastard put disease and religion on the world) Answer me this question then: Would you rather that God a) had made people mere robots, or b) that humans have a free will, enabling them to commit evil? Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Your question, and the choices you provide presuppose that there is a God and that your two alternatives are the only ones possible. Neither your premise, nor your choices are necessarily true. At 07:06 PM 12/22/2005 -0800, you wrote: But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. And your point is...?God is evil? (can't say I disagree, if he does exist, that means the bastard put disease and religion on the world) Answer me this question then: Would you rather that God a) had made people mere robots, or b) that humans have a free will, enabling them to commit evil? Gary VanderMolen __ Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. - Benjamin Franklin
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Your question, and the choices you provide presuppose that there is a God Check the context. I was replying to someone who suggested God is evil. and that your two alternatives are the only ones possible. Neither your premise, nor your choices are necessarily true. My argument was not meant to stand alone, but it addressed the question raised by the previous responder. Arguments often require simplifications, in order to bring out the contrast in the opposing positions. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:38:05 -0800 If (as you indicate) people are turning less religious over time, why do you suppose that Roe V. Wade may actually be overturned soon, for the first time in 33 years? Gary VanderMolen Because abortion has absolutely nothing to do with fairy tales? Since when do you need to worship cloud men in order to determine if you personally find aborting fetuses to be immoral? I really have disgust for those who assume that only by instilling fairy tales does one have moral guidance. It is a real undermining of the human mind to overlook the sense of morality built in at the genetic level. I don't need a book to tell me that killing is wrong.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Macintosh is Satan!? *Now* it all makes sense! @:) warpmedia wrote: They were dolts by modern standards. Maybe you don't like the word or the implied insult, but it's factual. This is not a discussion of beliefs but one of belief without fact vs. skepticism due to lack of fact. Faith is just that, either you have it or you don't. No amount of words makes it fact. Empirical people tend to discard overreaching hopes when the defy reality, others like to delude themselves. It's a nice self answering argument when everything is what it is because we as humans fail some higher beings test or defy his/her/it's plan, not because it simply is not true. Things don't default to true just because you believe strongly in them and can't make any argument beyond faith that it is. Since that's where the world's religious argue from, they will continue to draw ire from the non-religious and from opposing religions. Personally if religion makes you burn people at the stake, start wars, keep people ignorant, lock your women up abuse them etc, it's fails the sniff test. If those are things you want to do, then at least be honest and say your doing so because you don't want people with other values possibly over running your part of the planet. All of the BS is why spirituality belongs in the heart mind, as acts of caring not judging, and not the public forum as religion. Religion belongs nowhere since organization by default means someone pushing an agenda. Now I am off to pray to my PC god and shun the satan Macintosh... Gary VanderMolen wrote: It's pretty easy to understand as the idea spawned from the mind of feeble dolts over 5,000 years ago who turn to fairy tales about cloud men rather Respectful discussion of beliefs is one thing, but labeling your opponents as dolts is another. Ad hominems are often the last resort of those who have run out of logical arguments. than investigation for life's answers. God - the world's longest running chain-letter troll. Should have been the first entry on Snopes.com. I can't believe humanity still clings to such an ass-backward ignorant view of the world. For a century or so since Nietzsche, popular culture in the West has operated according to an uneasy truce, in which God both is and is not dead. We teach our children the evidence-based materialism of science and tell them they can believe in God and a faith-based morality in their spare time if they like. And in some parts of the country, we celebrate Scopes as a victory over ignorance, while still insisting that we do not also celebrate it as a victory over religion. What these endless Scopes sequels tell us is that somewhere many years from now we're going to hit a fork in the road, beyond which this have-it-both-ways philosophy isn't going to fly anymore. Science and religion aren't opposing views, they're complimentary. The overwhelming majority of people in this country (USA) identify themselves with Biblical beliefs, including many scientists and other highly educated people. If your theory were true, no one with more than a simple high school education would believe in religion. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
It is presumptive of us to sit in judgment of Evolution when we don't have all the facts. Remember that science is always evolving our understanding of the way things *really* work. You know, whether Jesus was deity or man is really irrelevant! He still changed the world for the better and he was exactly right about love and tolerance being the answer. @:D Gary VanderMolen wrote: At 03:49 PM 22/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: Of course we are supposed to use the (limited) logic we have. Even ants have logic, but can you explain the theory of relativity to an ant? Humans may be a little smarter than ants, but our capability to understand things like higher dimensions is very limited. But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. And your point is...? That your argument that one can't compare the relationship between an ant and a human and the supposed relationship between man and god. My argument is that the difference in intelligence level between man and ant is at least as large as the difference between man and God. Since it's no surprise that the ant can't understand man's designs, so likewise it should be no surprise that man can't fully understand or appreciate God's designs. Saying that ants don't understand what we are doing (which is a conclusion you have no proof of, btw) and therefore we shouldn't expect to have any understanding of god makes no sense, and isn't an argument. I never said that we don't have any understanding of God. Our understanding of him is limited, because humans are not omniscient. It is presumptive of us to sit in judgment of God when we don't have all the facts. Gary VanderMolen
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
You really are a rude and arrogant person Mr Robertson. Sad to think that one day you will awake to realise that much of what you write off as 'fairy tales' is true. In the meantime, I hope you learn the difference between expressing your personal beliefs in a courteous manner and abusing people who you don't know. Thanks for your posts Gary... I'm encouraged by your stand. Neil Atwood - Sydney, Australia http://westserve.org - Blog, Christianity, Coffee and Tech Stuff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pat Robertson Sent: Friday, 23 December 2005 4:13 PM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge From: Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:38:05 -0800 If (as you indicate) people are turning less religious over time, why do you suppose that Roe V. Wade may actually be overturned soon, for the first time in 33 years? Gary VanderMolen Because abortion has absolutely nothing to do with fairy tales? Since when do you need to worship cloud men in order to determine if you personally find aborting fetuses to be immoral? I really have disgust for those who assume that only by instilling fairy tales does one have moral guidance. It is a real undermining of the human mind to overlook the sense of morality built in at the genetic level. I don't need a book to tell me that killing is wrong.
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
? You know, whether Jesus was deity or man is really irrelevant! He still ? changed the world for the better and he was exactly right about love and ? tolerance being the answer. @:D While I agree with your conclusion (mostly) Stan, Jesus himself didnt allow for the first comment (Read Matthew 11:25-28 amongst other places) Regards Neil Atwood - Sydney, Australia http://westserve.org - Blog, Christianity, Coffee and Tech Stuff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stan Zaske Sent: Friday, 23 December 2005 4:45 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge It is presumptive of us to sit in judgment of Evolution when we don't have all the facts. Remember that science is always evolving our understanding of the way things *really* work. You know, whether Jesus was deity or man is really irrelevant! He still changed the world for the better and he was exactly right about love and tolerance being the answer. @:D Gary VanderMolen wrote: At 03:49 PM 22/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: Of course we are supposed to use the (limited) logic we have. Even ants have logic, but can you explain the theory of relativity to an ant? Humans may be a little smarter than ants, but our capability to understand things like higher dimensions is very limited. But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. And your point is...? That your argument that one can't compare the relationship between an ant and a human and the supposed relationship between man and god. My argument is that the difference in intelligence level between man and ant is at least as large as the difference between man and God. Since it's no surprise that the ant can't understand man's designs, so likewise it should be no surprise that man can't fully understand or appreciate God's designs. Saying that ants don't understand what we are doing (which is a conclusion you have no proof of, btw) and therefore we shouldn't expect to have any understanding of god makes no sense, and isn't an argument. I never said that we don't have any understanding of God. Our understanding of him is limited, because humans are not omniscient. It is presumptive of us to sit in judgment of God when we don't have all the facts. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
If (as you indicate) people are turning less religious over time, why do you suppose that Roe V. Wade may actually be overturned soon, for the first time in 33 years? Gary VanderMolen Because abortion has absolutely nothing to do with fairy tales? Since when do you need to worship cloud men in order to determine if you personally find aborting fetuses to be immoral? I really have disgust for those who assume that only by instilling fairy tales does one have moral guidance. It is a real undermining of the human mind to overlook the sense of morality built in at the genetic level. I don't need a book to tell me that killing is wrong. I applaud you for your pro-life stance. But let's do a reality check. Of those who are anti-abortion, what percent do you suppose are religious? I think it's very high, probably 80% or better. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Sad to think that one day you will awake to realise that much of what you write off as 'fairy tales' is true. Even unbelievers should take notice of Pascal's Wager. Briefly it states that there are four possible outcomes in life: 1. You believe in God and he really exists. Outcome: You'll win big. 2. You believe in God but he doesn't exist. Outcome: you haven't lost much. 3. You don't believe in God and he doesn't exist. Outcome: a draw. 4. You don't believe in God and he exists. Outcome: You lose big time. Gary VanderMolen
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
;-) I haven't heard that in a long time Gary... Neil Atwood - Sydney, Australia http://westserve.org - Blog, Christianity, Coffee and Tech Stuff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary VanderMolen Sent: Friday, 23 December 2005 5:23 PM To: 'The Hardware List' Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Sad to think that one day you will awake to realise that much of what you write off as 'fairy tales' is true. Even unbelievers should take notice of Pascal's Wager. Briefly it states that there are four possible outcomes in life: 1. You believe in God and he really exists. Outcome: You'll win big. 2. You believe in God but he doesn't exist. Outcome: you haven't lost much. 3. You don't believe in God and he doesn't exist. Outcome: a draw. 4. You don't believe in God and he exists. Outcome: You lose big time. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Neil, you made me crack open my Bible for the first time in ages. lol Listen man, that's all very poetic and flowery but it doesn't really mean or say anything! Anyway, I'm one of the cowards who picks and chooses what to believe who happens to be a follower of Jesus *but* not the Christ (Messiah) because there's absolutely no evidence that any of it is true! The fact that so many obviously intelligent folk believe says a lot about us humans and how terrifying the Universe is to us. It's a pretty daunting thing to realize that the Cosmos is an inanimate object that doesn't have human feelings and won't swoop in to rescue us if we fuck up. Species die all the time and most past extinctions occurred long before Human beings evolved on this world. The world around us is a harsh and emotionally bankrupt place where people make every possible effort to associate human attributes. Sad to think that @ some point in the future human beings will also cease to exist. I'd like to think that if God is real he made the Universe into a giant petri dish just to see what would result and I seriously doubt he gives a Rat's ass about you and me personally. On the level of species he might find the Human Race mildly interesting. @:D Neil Atwood wrote: ? You know, whether Jesus was deity or man is really irrelevant! He still ? changed the world for the better and he was exactly right about love and ? tolerance being the answer. @:D While I agree with your conclusion (mostly) Stan, Jesus himself didn’t allow for the first comment (Read Matthew 11:25-28 amongst other places) Regards Neil Atwood - Sydney, Australia http://westserve.org - Blog, Christianity, Coffee and Tech Stuff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stan Zaske Sent: Friday, 23 December 2005 4:45 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge It is presumptive of us to sit in judgment of Evolution when we don't have all the facts. Remember that science is always evolving our understanding of the way things *really* work. You know, whether Jesus was deity or man is really irrelevant! He still changed the world for the better and he was exactly right about love and tolerance being the answer. @:D Gary VanderMolen wrote: At 03:49 PM 22/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: Of course we are supposed to use the (limited) logic we have. Even ants have logic, but can you explain the theory of relativity to an ant? Humans may be a little smarter than ants, but our capability to understand things like higher dimensions is very limited. But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. And your point is...? That your argument that one can't compare the relationship between an ant and a human and the supposed relationship between man and god. My argument is that the difference in intelligence level between man and ant is at least as large as the difference between man and God. Since it's no surprise that the ant can't understand man's designs, so likewise it should be no surprise that man can't fully understand or appreciate God's designs. Saying that ants don't understand what we are doing (which is a conclusion you have no proof of, btw) and therefore we shouldn't expect to have any understanding of god makes no sense, and isn't an argument. I never said that we don't have any understanding of God. Our understanding of him is limited, because humans are not omniscient. It is presumptive of us to sit in judgment of God when we don't have all the facts. Gary VanderMolen
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: Neil Atwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: 'The Hardware List' hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:02:18 +1100 You really are a rude and arrogant person Mr Robertson. Sad to think that one day you will awake to realise that much of what you write off as 'fairy tales' is true. True would mean factual, and facts are not a part of faith. But lets not have logic, facts, and truth get in the way of your reasoning, after all it's just religion.
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Neil, you made me crack open my Bible for the first time in ages. Well, I've achieved something today! ;-) This is such a difficult medium for this kind of discussion, but I'll try and be brief: We are dealing with matters of truth here. Either something is true or it is not. There is discoverable truth about Jesus, because he was a real historical figure, and therefore we can employ the same approach to examining him and his claims as we do any historical figure. If we do that, our primary texts are those of the New Testament - a very thoroughly analysed and researched set of documents, respected as an accurate historical source by the vast majority of historians of any scholarly repute (Christian or not). One thing is very, very clear: Jesus claimed to be the incarnate Son of God, and any other conclusion as to his nature and role was unacceptable to him. So, if you want a discussion about that, we have to start there and use the best source material available: the Bible. Any other approach is just opinion and therefore of limited value in the real world. Also happy to continue this off list is that is preferable. Respectfully. Neil Atwood - Sydney, Australia http://westserve.org - Blog, Christianity, Coffee and Tech Stuff. -Original Message- From: Stan Zaske [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 23 December 2005 5:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Neil, you made me crack open my Bible for the first time in ages. lol Listen man, that's all very poetic and flowery but it doesn't really mean or say anything! Anyway, I'm one of the cowards who picks and chooses what to believe who happens to be a follower of Jesus *but* not the Christ (Messiah) because there's absolutely no evidence that any of it is true! The fact that so many obviously intelligent folk believe says a lot about us humans and how terrifying the Universe is to us. It's a pretty daunting thing to realize that the Cosmos is an inanimate object that doesn't have human feelings and won't swoop in to rescue us if we fuck up. Species die all the time and most past extinctions occurred long before Human beings evolved on this world. The world around us is a harsh and emotionally bankrupt place where people make every possible effort to associate human attributes. Sad to think that @ some point in the future human beings will also cease to exist. I'd like to think that if God is real he made the Universe into a giant petri dish just to see what would result and I seriously doubt he gives a Rat's ass about you and me personally. On the level of species he might find the Human Race mildly interesting. @:D Neil Atwood wrote: ? You know, whether Jesus was deity or man is really irrelevant! He still ? changed the world for the better and he was exactly right about love and ? tolerance being the answer. @:D While I agree with your conclusion (mostly) Stan, Jesus himself didn't allow for the first comment (Read Matthew 11:25-28 amongst other places) Regards Neil Atwood - Sydney, Australia http://westserve.org - Blog, Christianity, Coffee and Tech Stuff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stan Zaske Sent: Friday, 23 December 2005 4:45 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge It is presumptive of us to sit in judgment of Evolution when we don't have all the facts. Remember that science is always evolving our understanding of the way things *really* work. You know, whether Jesus was deity or man is really irrelevant! He still changed the world for the better and he was exactly right about love and tolerance being the answer. @:D Gary VanderMolen wrote: At 03:49 PM 22/12/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote: Of course we are supposed to use the (limited) logic we have. Even ants have logic, but can you explain the theory of relativity to an ant? Humans may be a little smarter than ants, but our capability to understand things like higher dimensions is very limited. But I've never said to an ant Act this way, and I'll get you into heaven. Plus we were given reason, the ability to discern between good and evil. And your point is...? That your argument that one can't compare the relationship between an ant and a human and the supposed relationship between man and god. My argument is that the difference in intelligence level between man and ant is at least as large as the difference between man and God. Since it's no surprise that the ant can't understand man's designs, so likewise it should be no surprise that man can't fully understand or appreciate God's designs. Saying that ants don't understand what we are doing (which is a conclusion you have no proof of, btw) and therefore
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
True would mean factual, and facts are not a part of faith. But lets not have logic, facts, and truth get in the way of your reasoning, after all it's just religion. That's just your opinion - which you have given no supporting argument for. I'm generally opposed to 'religion' (in the way it's commonly used), what I have is personal relationship with Jesus, based predominantly on the historical truths about him (see my post to Stan). I don't expect you to begin to understand or accept that, and I won't abuse you because of the opinions you hold. I wonder if you will return the courtesy? Regards Neil Atwood - Sydney, Australia http://westserve.org - Blog, Christianity, Coffee and Tech Stuff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pat Robertson Sent: Friday, 23 December 2005 6:12 PM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge From: Neil Atwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: 'The Hardware List' hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:02:18 +1100 You really are a rude and arrogant person Mr Robertson. Sad to think that one day you will awake to realise that much of what you write off as 'fairy tales' is true. True would mean factual, and facts are not a part of faith. But lets not have logic, facts, and truth get in the way of your reasoning, after all it's just religion.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 08:22 PM 20/12/2005, Steve wrote: Their children will simply grow up ignorant then won't they ! If Darwin could prove just 1% of the natural world then it might be worth listening to . . . but why are Dogs no more intelligent than they were years ago, why are there still Monkeys, why have they not evolved like us ? Where did flowers come from ? How come there are still single cell organisms after all these milions of years ? Darwinism doesn't prove anything, all it does it suggest a possible solution to the questions man has been asking for years. All these questions simply show that you haven't thought Darwinism through completely. The idea that Darwinism requires continuous improvement based on what mankind thinks is better shows a total lack of understanding of his theory. Put simply: Lifeforms evolve to take advantage of niches where there is less competition for energy. Since there is zero value in dogs getting smarter, they don't. Since there are plenty of niches where being single celled is they best way to harvest energy (one could argue that single celled lifeforms are much better at harvesting energy than we multi-celled organisims) there are still lots of single celled lifeforms (more than any other kind in fact.) Darwin never said that evolution was working towards creating a bunch of intelligent, car driving, tv-watching, multi-cellular (both biologically and telephonically) creatures. In fact, it is reasonable to see intelligence as a dead end branch of the evolutionary bush, much like size was to the dinosaurs. T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From da judge: Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on ID, who in combination drove the Board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. THE BREATHTAKING INANITY OF THE BOARD'S DECISION IS EVIDENT when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources. AMEN.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
I was going to make the same reply. warpmedia wrote: LOL! Pat Robertson wrote: Actually it is a scientific theory. People who use Cletus McRedstate pablum such as it's only a theory perhaps should go prove how weak and unfounded scientific theories are by testing the theory of gravity and go leap off a tall building.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Didn't most of the school board get voted out of office there as well? Analyst wrote: From da judge: Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on ID, who in combination drove the Board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. THE BREATHTAKING INANITY OF THE BOARD'S DECISION IS EVIDENT when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources. AMEN.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
- Original Message - From: Thane Sherrington (S) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge All these questions simply show that you haven't thought Darwinism through completely. The idea that Darwinism requires continuous improvement Instead of blaming the Creator in intelligent design for sickness and death, why not hope for the day he fixes the hindrance to the human body remaining well and regenerating thus not wearing out and dying, as we know it has the basic design to do? But then there are those who do not believe it required intelligent design to build something as complex as the universe and the human body. Chuck
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 09:40 AM 21/12/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Instead of blaming the Creator in intelligent design for sickness and death, why not hope for the day he fixes the hindrance to the human body remaining well and regenerating thus not wearing out and dying, as we know it has the basic design to do? But then there are those who do not believe it required intelligent design to build something as complex as the universe and the human body. Ok, let's for a minute assume that the Creator did build the human body to last forever in perfect health. And let's assume that he prevents it from functioning that way for some reason. That doesn't make him benevolent. In fact, it makes him a really nasty bastard. I'd pass on worshipping that sort of diety. T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
On 21 Dec 2005 at 7:25, Ben Ruset wrote: Didn't most of the school board get voted out of office there as well? All EIGHT of them were voted out in the last election. The newly elected members have no intention to appeal the judge's ruling. Vince
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: Thane Sherrington (S) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 07:44:23 -0400 All these questions simply show that you haven't thought Darwinism through completely. The idea that Darwinism requires continuous improvement based on what mankind thinks is better shows a total lack of understanding of his theory. It's also important to understand that the scientific method is like the US constitution. It's a living, breathing set of foundations that allows us to challenge and refine theories or laws to get a better understanding of our universe. Religious dogma is absolute, it can not be corrected, and many have died when pointing out the blatent stupidity of said dogma. Those who suggest compromising the scientific method in wake of certain people's belief in delusional frameworks based ancient superstitions is an insult to all of mankind's progress as a result of science. Just sickening.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:40:23 -0500 Instead of blaming the Creator in intelligent design for sickness and death, why not hope for the day he fixes the hindrance to the human body remaining well and regenerating thus not wearing out and dying, as we know it has the basic design to do? But then there are those who do not believe it required intelligent design to build something as complex as the universe and the human body. Why do all whales have useless hip bones? Not very intelligent in design I'd say.
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Unfortunately, neither the Intelligent design people or the evolution thumpers have it right. The real answer is somewhere in the middle. It is like a well kept secret like the formula for Coke. If we could scientifically prove the origin of human beings, then most religions (believing in the unseen) would not be necessary. All the people would go to Churches, Synagogues and Mosques all the time). And we would not have atheists or agnostics. 007 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Pat Robertson Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:46 AM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:40:23 -0500 Instead of blaming the Creator in intelligent design for sickness and death, why not hope for the day he fixes the hindrance to the human body remaining well and regenerating thus not wearing out and dying, as we know it has the basic design to do? But then there are those who do not believe it required intelligent design to build something as complex as the universe and the human body. Why do all whales have useless hip bones? Not very intelligent in design I'd say.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Pat Robertson wrote: It's also important to understand that the scientific method is like the US constitution. It's a living, breathing set of foundations that allows us to challenge and refine theories or laws to get a better understanding of our universe. Religious dogma is absolute, it can not be corrected, and many have died when pointing out the blatent stupidity of said dogma. Those who suggest compromising the scientific method in wake of certain people's belief in delusional frameworks based ancient superstitions is an insult to all of mankind's progress as a result of science. Just sickening. Didn't something like this happen in the last election?
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Pat Robertson wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:40:23 -0500 Instead of blaming the Creator in intelligent design for sickness and death, why not hope for the day he fixes the hindrance to the human body remaining well and regenerating thus not wearing out and dying, as we know it has the basic design to do? But then there are those who do not believe it required intelligent design to build something as complex as the universe and the human body. Why do all whales have useless hip bones? Not very intelligent in design I'd say. Ahperhaps you lack sufficient intelligence! :)
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
At 12:57 PM 21/12/2005, 007 wrote: The real answer is somewhere in the middle. It is like a well kept secret like the formula for Coke. If we could scientifically prove the origin of human beings, then most religions (believing in the unseen) would not be necessary. All the people would go to Churches, Synagogues and Mosques all the time). And we would not have atheists or agnostics. Assuming there is a god. T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
How about everyone get a little intelligence and realize that you are NOT going to change anyone's opinion here? This is a hardware list. This whole post was just flamebait--and has been hashed out numerous times in the past to no avail. Personally, I don't think this decision had any place in a courtroom. If the community didn't want ID in their science classes, they should have changed the board. And they did. Democracy was served--so why do we need to involve the already overburdened (and serviously flawed) court system? Greg - Original Message - From: Anthony Q. Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Pat Robertson wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:40:23 -0500 Instead of blaming the Creator in intelligent design for sickness and death, why not hope for the day he fixes the hindrance to the human body remaining well and regenerating thus not wearing out and dying, as we know it has the basic design to do? But then there are those who do not believe it required intelligent design to build something as complex as the universe and the human body. Why do all whales have useless hip bones? Not very intelligent in design I'd say. Ahperhaps you lack sufficient intelligence! :)
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
I thought that someone had recently changed their name to GOD in a courthouse. 007. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thane Sherrington (S) Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 12:38 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge At 12:57 PM 21/12/2005, 007 wrote: The real answer is somewhere in the middle. It is like a well kept secret like the formula for Coke. If we could scientifically prove the origin of human beings, then most religions (believing in the unseen) would not be necessary. All the people would go to Churches, Synagogues and Mosques all the time). And we would not have atheists or agnostics. Assuming there is a god. T
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
God Shamgod 2nd round pick by the Washington Wizards. It's his birth given name though. From: 007 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:44:22 -0500 I thought that someone had recently changed their name to GOD in a courthouse. 007. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thane Sherrington (S) Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 12:38 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge At 12:57 PM 21/12/2005, 007 wrote: The real answer is somewhere in the middle. It is like a well kept secret like the formula for Coke. If we could scientifically prove the origin of human beings, then most religions (believing in the unseen) would not be necessary. All the people would go to Churches, Synagogues and Mosques all the time). And we would not have atheists or agnostics. Assuming there is a god. T
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
I am not sure if you can count this as an argument for GOD, but most porn stars especially the female ones, have been known to utter no other word except Oh my God in the money shot. 007. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Pat Robertson Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 2:02 PM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge God Shamgod 2nd round pick by the Washington Wizards. It's his birth given name though. From: 007 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:44:22 -0500 I thought that someone had recently changed their name to GOD in a courthouse. 007. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thane Sherrington (S) Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 12:38 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge At 12:57 PM 21/12/2005, 007 wrote: The real answer is somewhere in the middle. It is like a well kept secret like the formula for Coke. If we could scientifically prove the origin of human beings, then most religions (believing in the unseen) would not be necessary. All the people would go to Churches, Synagogues and Mosques all the time). And we would not have atheists or agnostics. Assuming there is a god. T
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Naw, it was DOG. 007 wrote: I thought that someone had recently changed their name to GOD in a courthouse.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
- Original Message - From: 007 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 2:09 PM Subject: RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge other word except Oh my God in the money shot. This is in humor, not to debate, but somebody did a super job in making us the sexual beings we are! Chuck
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Three instances of GOD that I can remember: http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61673 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/28/AR2005062801 073.html And another one that happened about 10 years back. 007. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of warpmedia Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 3:07 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Naw, it was DOG. 007 wrote: I thought that someone had recently changed their name to GOD in a courthouse.
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, 007 wrote: Unfortunately, neither the Intelligent design people or the evolution thumpers have it right. It's the Goa'ould. Christopher Fisk -- BOFH Excuse #428: Firmware update in the coffee machine
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
No, worse, it's the Ori trying to get us to follow Origin. Blessed are the Ori! Christopher Fisk wrote: On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, 007 wrote: Unfortunately, neither the Intelligent design people or the evolution thumpers have it right. It's the Goa'ould. Christopher Fisk
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Ok, let's for a minute assume that the Creator did build the human body to last forever in perfect health. And let's assume that he prevents it from functioning that way for some reason. That doesn't make him benevolent. In fact, it makes him a really nasty bastard. I'd pass on worshipping that sort of diety. Read the story of Adam and Eve in the garden. It's called having free will, and making the wrong choice. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Unfortunately, neither the Intelligent design people or the evolution thumpers have it right. The real answer is somewhere in the middle. It is like a well kept secret like the formula for Coke. If we could scientifically prove the origin of human beings, then most religions (believing in the unseen) would not be necessary. So far, scientists have been unable to duplicate the event that supposedly caused the first living organism on earth to come into being. Real science is provable with experiments that are readily reproducable. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Perhaps, the Universe *is* an intelligently designed construct or mechanism! But in the same token, it was clearly setup to be self-maintaining and evolving. Life isn't the only thing in the cosmos to evolve. Stars also evolve, in that the 1st generation suns (the 1st ones that formed after the Big Bang) were pure hydrogen that produce helium waste during the process of fusion. When a 1st generation star goes nova, the resulting heat and pressure create higher elements on the periodic table that can't be produced in any other manner. Eventually this material will coalesce forming new suns that periodically go nova and create even higher elements on the periodic table. The latest research states that Iron is probably the highest element that will fuse as fuel for solar activity. The Universe is ~18 billion years old and therefore the matter that you and I are made of is from star material that has been through this crucible of fire multiple times. That's evolution plain and simple! Darwin didn't dream up his theory he observed it as a natural fact! It's as plain as the nose on my face! Merry Christmas to all the Luddites! And have a Happy denial of reality New Year! @:D [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Thane Sherrington (S) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge All these questions simply show that you haven't thought Darwinism through completely. The idea that Darwinism requires continuous improvement Instead of blaming the Creator in intelligent design for sickness and death, why not hope for the day he fixes the hindrance to the human body remaining well and regenerating thus not wearing out and dying, as we know it has the basic design to do? But then there are those who do not believe it required intelligent design to build something as complex as the universe and the human body. Chuck
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Hallelujah, praise God for that! @:) Analyst wrote: On 21 Dec 2005 at 7:25, Ben Ruset wrote: Didn't most of the school board get voted out of office there as well? All EIGHT of them were voted out in the last election. The newly elected members have no intention to appeal the judge's ruling. Vince
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
FWIW, that's an excellent example of the evolutionary process proving that Whales were once land dwellers and mammals like ourselves. Uh, just so you know Pat I called Pat Robertson an Ape the other day. I hope you won't take offense. @:D Pat Robertson wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:40:23 -0500 Instead of blaming the Creator in intelligent design for sickness and death, why not hope for the day he fixes the hindrance to the human body remaining well and regenerating thus not wearing out and dying, as we know it has the basic design to do? But then there are those who do not believe it required intelligent design to build something as complex as the universe and the human body. Why do all whales have useless hip bones? Not very intelligent in design I'd say.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Number one Greg, people like to talk about this stuff because it is fundamental to our understanding of human origins. Second of all, you don't know what you're talking about by calling it flame bait just because someone reports a current event in the news. And third, the list rule is that OT conversations are allowed up to a point. If you don't want to discuss the matter then ignore it. Please don't try to spoil it for the rest of us. Ok? Greg Sevart wrote: How about everyone get a little intelligence and realize that you are NOT going to change anyone's opinion here? This is a hardware list. This whole post was just flamebait--and has been hashed out numerous times in the past to no avail. Personally, I don't think this decision had any place in a courtroom. If the community didn't want ID in their science classes, they should have changed the board. And they did. Democracy was served--so why do we need to involve the already overburdened (and serviously flawed) court system? Greg - Original Message - From: Anthony Q. Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Pat Robertson wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:40:23 -0500 Instead of blaming the Creator in intelligent design for sickness and death, why not hope for the day he fixes the hindrance to the human body remaining well and regenerating thus not wearing out and dying, as we know it has the basic design to do? But then there are those who do not believe it required intelligent design to build something as complex as the universe and the human body. Why do all whales have useless hip bones? Not very intelligent in design I'd say. Ahperhaps you lack sufficient intelligence! :)
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Allow me to interject a little intelligence into this line of thought. I've read the Bible and thought about what it states rather than just accept a preacher man's interpretation. Since God is all-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing and designed us he is fully aware of who/what we are and what any of us will do in any given situation! God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (apples you know) in the garden and then made sure that Adam and Eve knew about it. He knew that Satan would go to the garden and tempt Eve. He knew that Satan could charm the chrome off a steel bumper and that Eve would easily succumb. He knew that Eve could talk Adam into anything simply because the little head is more powerful than the big head. Clear so far? So Eve was first to eat the Apple but Adam got blamed for original sin and finally when God kicked them both out of the Garden of Eden he placed 2 flaming swords around the Tree of Life (a different tree than the one mentioned above) so nobody could sneak back and eat the fruit to become immortal (not that they didn't live 8 or 9 hundred years @ the time). But wait, this sounds like a fairy tale and not be the work of an intelligence so far above our own that it could create something as vast and complex as the entire Universe! Seems pretty clear to me no god I can believe in could act like a simpleton the way Genesis portrays him/her/it (since God came from outside this Universe and clearly can't be human why did he tell his prophets that he's male? God doesn't lie does he?). Finally, I would like to say to all my Christian brothers and sisters that lest you say the Bible was written by his prophets who are fallible men I say that God is smart and powerful enough to straighten it out so we read it the way he intended! Surely an all-powerful God would not allow a corrupted version of his word to pollute the minds of all mankind the past several millenia? Read it and see for yourself if you think it represents the works of an ultimate being. To me it's more along the lines of a twelve year olds idea of the supreme being! @:D Gary VanderMolen wrote: Ok, let's for a minute assume that the Creator did build the human body to last forever in perfect health. And let's assume that he prevents it from functioning that way for some reason. That doesn't make him benevolent. In fact, it makes him a really nasty bastard. I'd pass on worshipping that sort of diety. Read the story of Adam and Eve in the garden. It's called having free will, and making the wrong choice. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
And the Human Race has had scientific reason for how long now? Imagine what they will figure out in the next 2000 years. The apostle Paul (the former Saul of Tarsus) said that the end is near referring to the second coming of Jesus and I haven't been raptured yet. He didn't lie to us did he? That's what it says! @:D Gary VanderMolen wrote: Unfortunately, neither the Intelligent design people or the evolution thumpers have it right. The real answer is somewhere in the middle. It is like a well kept secret like the formula for Coke. If we could scientifically prove the origin of human beings, then most religions (believing in the unseen) would not be necessary. So far, scientists have been unable to duplicate the event that supposedly caused the first living organism on earth to come into being. Real science is provable with experiments that are readily reproducable. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Who would have imagined it would have happened in Jersey... Brian Weeden wrote: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051220-5807.html Quote: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. Chalk one up for the good guys. -- Brian
RE: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
That town is invoking the wrath of God. Rabbi Jesus will not be mocked by such blasphemous diatribe. Only communists and deviants believe that man and monkey are related. PROOF: http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=2434192005 Pat Robertson, I'm not an ape but I play one on TV. From: Brian Weeden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: hwg hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:59:08 -0700 http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051220-5807.html Quote: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. Chalk one up for the good guys. -- Brian
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
@ last, some intelligence in a sea of ignorant despair. @:D Brian Weeden wrote: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051220-5807.html Quote: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. Chalk one up for the good guys. -- Brian
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Pat Robertson *is* an ape! @:D Pat Robertson Elkins wrote: That town is invoking the wrath of God. Rabbi Jesus will not be mocked by such blasphemous diatribe. Only communists and deviants believe that man and monkey are related. PROOF: http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=2434192005 Pat Robertson, I'm not an ape but I play one on TV. From: Brian Weeden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: hwg hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:59:08 -0700 http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051220-5807.html Quote: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. Chalk one up for the good guys. -- Brian
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Their children will simply grow up ignorant then won't they ! If Darwin could prove just 1% of the natural world then it might be worth listening to . . . but why are Dogs no more intelligent than they were years ago, why are there still Monkeys, why have they not evolved like us ? Where did flowers come from ? How come there are still single cell organisms after all these milions of years ? Darwinism doesn't prove anything, all it does it suggest a possible solution to the questions man has been asking for years. If you read the Bible and compare the rock strata with the events in the Bible, like the great flood, you see the rocks match with the Bible. Darwin couldn't explain why the rocks are how they are. Have a look at http://www.creationresearch.org/ I'll get flamed for this . . . I usually do :-) Don't shoot the messenger, go argue with God ! :-) Steve - Original Message - From: Brian Weeden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hwg hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:59 PM Subject: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051220-5807.html Quote: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. Chalk one up for the good guys. -- Brian -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/207 - Release Date: 19/12/2005
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
From: Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:22:52 - Their children will simply grow up ignorant then won't they ! If Darwin could prove just 1% of the natural world then it might be worth listening to . . . but why are Dogs no more intelligent than they were years ago, why are there still Monkeys, why have they not evolved like us ? Where did flowers come from ? How come there are still single cell organisms after all these milions of years ? One thing is for sure, they did not come from fairy tales about cloud men from 5,000 years ago (which are rehashed in every new cult inception, the cult of Rabbi Jesus is no exception). Darwinism doesn't prove anything, all it does it suggest a possible solution to the questions man has been asking for years. Actually it is a scientific theory. People who use Cletus McRedstate pablum such as it's only a theory perhaps should go prove how weak and unfounded scientific theories are by testing the theory of gravity and go leap off a tall building. If you read the Bible and compare the rock strata with the events in the Bible, like the great flood, you see the rocks match with the Bible. Darwin couldn't explain why the rocks are how they are. Have a look at http://www.creationresearch.org/ Some people have lost grasp of what faith is. Faith is defined as something that can never be proven yet is believed nonetheless. God archeologists are missing the point. Trying to fuse unprovable fairy tales with actual reality is a fruitless endeavor. Everybody has their own superstitions, I'm just as guilty. I have faith that the Redskins will make the Super Bowl this year but I have no proof to show for it (logic suggests that they will be lucky if they make the playoffs). The world's greatest novel was written to inspire it's readership with it's interpretation of how to live a moral life - not inspire wackos to hunt down wood debris claiming it's from Noah. I'm sure the authors would be laughing their asses off.
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Steve wrote: :: I'll get flamed for this . . . I usually do :-) Don't shoot the :: messenger, go argue with God ! :-) Yeah, that's the ticket!
Re: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge
Uh huh,, and in every myth there is a bit of truth. Doesn't make it fact or factual. Nothing about the bible is anything more than the influence of events interpreted through SOME peoples values, fears wants roiled into myth. Indians had a god for everything and following your logic, thunder for example existing would make them right since they bothered to construct the myth. Man, what bunch of dumb apes fearfully stumbling around in the dark we can be... Even if ID is valid food for thought,it belongs in a philosophy class not science and should be religious flavor neutral. Let's not forget that these books were in written by primitives with fears, ignorance an agenda. Oh, while were talking ID, let's consider space aliens seeding the earth also. I think now that most of us have said our peace we should drop this thread since it will accomplish nothing change nothing. In fact most organized religious theory only serves to divide us all not on the word of deity, but the word of some other semi-evolved apes claiming to speak for a deity. Rubber room time if you did it in the modern world. Steve wrote: Their children will simply grow up ignorant then won't they ! If Darwin could prove just 1% of the natural world then it might be worth listening to . . . but why are Dogs no more intelligent than they were years ago, why are there still Monkeys, why have they not evolved like us ? Where did flowers come from ? How come there are still single cell organisms after all these milions of years ? Darwinism doesn't prove anything, all it does it suggest a possible solution to the questions man has been asking for years. If you read the Bible and compare the rock strata with the events in the Bible, like the great flood, you see the rocks match with the Bible. Darwin couldn't explain why the rocks are how they are. Have a look at http://www.creationresearch.org/ I'll get flamed for this . . . I usually do :-) Don't shoot the messenger, go argue with God ! :-) Steve - Original Message - From: Brian Weeden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hwg hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:59 PM Subject: [H] OT - Intelligent Design dealt harsh blow by NJ Judge http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051220-5807.html Quote: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. Chalk one up for the good guys. -- Brian -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/207 - Release Date: 19/12/2005
