RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
> > Any person who is not trained in the basics of programming (algorithms + > > data = programs) and how to express them in a computer language is > > -- by definition -- not a programmer. This is the same distinction > > made between real "hackers" and mere "script kiddies". > > The way you say this, you're basically saying that *I* am not a programmer, > and am limited to copy and paste. I've never taken a lesson in my life, I've > never been "trained" and I'm willing to bet a LOT of people that could do > circles around you haven't either. You can teach yourself to program, but both teacher and student need to be the right kind of person. This was aimed at people who are untrained in the respect of being unable to implement new algorithms in code. You're clearly better than that. "Edge has managed to procure some information from insiders at Sony though. Apparently, PlayStation3 will be even more difficult to program than the PlayStation2 was, though according to contacts inside SCB R&D, this is partly deliberate, in a bid to eliminate developers who don't have the technical skill to develop for the platform." - p.12, Edge #124 Referring back to the original discussion... Power and flexibility are necessary to give HL2 technically interesting mods. Simplicity and ease of use are clearly secondary. However, a well-documented SDK would be nice, and would make it easier to use this power and flexibility - to those who know what they're doing. Unskilled programmers who don't know what they're doing are basically irrelevant, as they are unlikely to produce anything of importance until they improve - whether with a simplified scripting language or a powerful and well-supported language like C++ or Java. -randomnine- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: QUERY PROTOCOL - WAS Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
The problem with the halfd protocol is that it is way too verbose. This querying standard will be used for ALL 3rd party server interactions (i.e when you are not actually in the game). We need to minimise the "cost" of getting the status of a server. That is why the standard specified default queries (ala stored procedures in the db world) to minimise the bandwidth when getting commonly used queries. The standard also allows programs to query on an ad-hoc basis for the data they want, it doesn't all need to be lumped into on giant packet. If you read the standard you will see it is similar to the halfd format, Rob actually helped in its creation. Right now it is zero limited rather than tab limited because we didn't want to put any arbiarty constaints on the strings you can use in response packets. We also designed the standard to work for all FPS style gaming engines (in the hope that others would implement it). - Alfred Brian A. Stumm wrote: AND to add to this... the most popular HL mods are team based. One should be able to get the damned TEAM scores via a query as well... Why can I not determine that (in TF) Red teams score is 20 and Blue teams score is 10 via a query... THAT is an absolute must in whatever standard is determined. The engine should allow the mod to set a mod type flag (aka team based) which means the engine will track team scores... On a side note, does anyone know how I can obtain team scores for TFC in the current hlds, even via a middle man hack? by middle man I mean something such as how botman's code sits between the engine and mod? I've figured out how to determine lots of info like the x,y,z coords of each player, kills, deaths, current weapon held, armor, health, etc etc etc but for the life of me CANNOT find the phreaking team score and THAT is completely frustrating... On Tue, 27 May 2003, Brian A. Stumm wrote: On Tue, 27 May 2003, Alfred wrote: http://www.adminmod.org/alfred/SQS_v03.html This standard was produces by this list about 6 months ago. Hopefully something like this will appear in HL2, nothing concrete about this side of the engine has been decided however. yes I've reviewed that before. I should have commented before. a tab delimited format would be much better. Its a system that has been in use for better than 20 years now. Are you familiar with the halfd newapi standard? lines 18 typeUPDATE up 1 time1537 data users [STF]H4XI-NET_COP [STF]1337 TheOtherWhiteMeat pings 5 5 5 5 frags 0 10 1 1 times 60:42:3560:42:3560:42:3560:42:35 ips 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 userid 843 844 845 846 wonid 0 0 0 0 model PyroPyroEngineerEngineer teamBlueRed BlueRed deaths 0 0 1 1 map 2fort cnt 4 vote1 Formatting may get wasted here but let me explain. First line tells us how many lines to expect ie: lines\t18\r\n \t meaning TAB and \r\n meaning newline. Now we read 18 lines, the 18th line is blank which indicates end of packet. These subsequent lines are key/data pairs. This provides us with a multidimensional array of data. From the data above we can see that... The player with name "theotherwhitemeat" has ping of 5, 1 frag, been playing for 60 hours 42 minutes 35 minutes, is from ip 127.0.0.1, userid is 846, wonid is 0 (this is a bot), model/class is engineer, team is red, has 1 death. We also know that voting is enabled (1) the map is 2fort and that there are 1537 seconds left on map. This is a single Halfd packet. There are other "type" messages that COULD be received. ie: lines 8 typeINIT up 1 auth2 nameSpokaneTeamFortress.com #2 ip 216.255.199.157 max 14 port27016 type indicates the kind of data we are reading... Anyone that is familiar with database import can deal with this type of data in any language. Tab Delimited... Players cannot use tabs or newlines in chat messages (in current hlds engine) which also makes this preferable. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ab. Brian A. Stummd88b. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8P"YP"Y88 http://www.bs-linux.com 8|o||o|88 The Choice of a Gnu Generation8'.88 8`._.' Y8. # d/ `8b. ### .dP . Y8b. ## # d8:' " `::88b. ## ### ### ### ### ### ### ### d8" `Y88b ## # ## ### ## ####
RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Sneaky, why are you so bloody arrogant? Unless I'm reading what you said completely wrong: > Any person who is not trained in the basics of programming (algorithms + > data > = programs) and how to express them in a computer language is -- by > definition > -- not a programmer. This is the same distinction made between real > "hackers" > and mere "script kiddies". > > Such persons are limited to cutting and pasting example code from > tutorials > and/or tweaking damage values, rates of fire, movement speeds and other > such readily changeable values in source code written by someone else > who can *really* program. The way you say this, you're basically saying that *I* am not a programmer, and am limited to copy and paste. I've never taken a lesson in my life, I've never been "trained" and I'm willing to bet a LOT of people that could do circles around you haven't either. Btw, you've been pissing a lot of people off lately, its come to the point that it doesn't matter what you know, because the way you've been delivering it makes you look like a prick. And your original email on this, and even your reply to me in the first place when I was talking about quake3 vm's vs dlls (which I said in the end, compare yourself, which you obviously didn't) came out as a blatant arrogant attack. You say you work for some professional gaming company, and that's the reason why you can be a snot, but yet you don't even tell anybody what it is. If you have something useful to say, say it in a useful mannor, not in a way that makes you look like you have a stick straight up your [EMAIL PROTECTED] For everyone else on this list...Rant over. omega Blackened Interactive - http://www.blackened-interactive.com Wavelength - http://www.thewavelength.net ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
[Correction]
This phrase:
(algorithms + data = programs)
Should be:
(algorithms + data structures = programs)
{OLD}Sneaky_Bastard!
Michael A. Hobson
icq:#2186709
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Yeah, this is what I've been saying too. There's a time and a place for scripting languages. Like, scripting languages for use by mappers to create cool far-ranging effects, that type of thing. For main logic use, however, it seems pointless. Any scripting language complex enough to use would be just as complex as a normal programming language, with the detriment of no one knowing it. Persuter At 10:09 PM 5/27/2003 -0700, you wrote: Scripting languages belong OUTSIDE of hlds. Take for example halfd, written in TCL (a scripting language). Wonderful tool for hlds_l admins. It remains outside of hlds as a wrapper that intercepts console and interacts to whats going on in hlds from outside of the binary executable. If we are going to have a big debate over what should and shouldn't be in hl2 it would be more productive to discuss a better api for interacting with hlds from outside the engine AND mod. The current hlds server protocol (for queries) is crap, imho. A lesson could be learned from Halfd and its "newapi" protocol. yes I probably am biased since I helped come up with the protocol but it's not exactly new thinking. tab delimited is a widely used format. For what it's worth, I believe in using the best language for the job. Sometimes I find scripting languages to be best, sometimes I find C/C++ best for the project at hand. Ok so I didn't add much to this discussion. But I would like to see the hlds query (aka server protocol) api discussed. I hope Valve will make serious changes to it prior to coming up with a formal SDK for hl2. -- ab. Brian A. Stummd88b. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8P"YP"Y88 http://www.bs-linux.com 8|o||o|88 The Choice of a Gnu Generation8'.88 8`._.' Y8. # d/ `8b. ### .dP . Y8b. ## # d8:' " `::88b. ## ### ### ### ### ### ### ### d8" `Y88b ## # ## ### ## #### ## ## :8P ' :888 ## # ## #### #### ### 8a.: _a88P ##### #### #### ###._/"Yaa_ :.| 88P| ## # ####### ###### ## \YP" `| 8P `. #### ### # #### ### ### ## ## / \._.d|.' # ### ### ### ### ### `--..__)88P`._.' ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Alfred wrote: >http://www.adminmod.org/alfred/SQS_v03.html > >This standard was produces by this list about 6 months ago. Hopefully >something like this will appear in HL2, nothing concrete about this side >of the engine has been decided however. > Actually, we had the discussion on the hlds_apps list, not this one. So, I'm sure many here are not aware of it. HoundDawg http://www.unitedadmins.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
http://www.adminmod.org/alfred/SQS_v03.html This standard was produces by this list about 6 months ago. Hopefully something like this will appear in HL2, nothing concrete about this side of the engine has been decided however. Brian A. Stumm wrote: Scripting languages belong OUTSIDE of hlds. Take for example halfd, written in TCL (a scripting language). Wonderful tool for hlds_l admins. It remains outside of hlds as a wrapper that intercepts console and interacts to whats going on in hlds from outside of the binary executable. If we are going to have a big debate over what should and shouldn't be in hl2 it would be more productive to discuss a better api for interacting with hlds from outside the engine AND mod. The current hlds server protocol (for queries) is crap, imho. A lesson could be learned from Halfd and its "newapi" protocol. yes I probably am biased since I helped come up with the protocol but it's not exactly new thinking. tab delimited is a widely used format. For what it's worth, I believe in using the best language for the job. Sometimes I find scripting languages to be best, sometimes I find C/C++ best for the project at hand. Ok so I didn't add much to this discussion. But I would like to see the hlds query (aka server protocol) api discussed. I hope Valve will make serious changes to it prior to coming up with a formal SDK for hl2. -- ab. Brian A. Stummd88b. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8P"YP"Y88 http://www.bs-linux.com 8|o||o|88 The Choice of a Gnu Generation8'.88 8`._.' Y8. # d/ `8b. ### .dP . Y8b. ## # d8:' " `::88b. ## ### ### ### ### ### ### ### d8" `Y88b ## # ## ### ## #### ## ## :8P ' :888 ## # ## #### #### ### 8a.: _a88P ##### #### #### ###._/"Yaa_ :.| 88P| ## # ####### ###### ## \YP" `| 8P `. #### ### # #### ### ### ## ## / \._.d|.' # ### ### ### ### ### `--..__)88P`._.' ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Phantom, Try quoting me next time instead of making false representations of what I actually said, which was: >Persons who are not up to programming in C or C++ are not up to >programming at all and are certainly not skilled enough to produce anything >but crappy "weapons mods". > I made this statement based upon the observation that these languages require a particular level of knowledge in the subjects of computer languages, algorithms, data structures and other fundamentals of Computer Science and skill in their application which the "easy-to-program" scripting language, by definition, do not require. Any person who is not trained in the basics of programming (algorithms + data = programs) and how to express them in a computer language is -- by definition -- not a programmer. This is the same distinction made between real "hackers" and mere "script kiddies". Such persons are limited to cutting and pasting example code from tutorials and/or tweaking damage values, rates of fire, movement speeds and other such readily changeable values in source code written by someone else who can *really* program. Implementation of totally new innovative ideas in a mod is utterly beyond such persons, for they lack the knowledge and skills to do so. That is what is meant by "crappy weapons mods". >Limiting the skilled programmers with a scripting language so unskilled >programmers can find it easier to make crappy mods is a completely >brain-damaged idea. I was being charitable to even call such people "programmers". You however, crossed the line when you called me 'bigoted' and then called into question my knowledge of the program languages in question, which is actually completely irrelevant to the point of argument I made, as I did not claim expertise as the reason anyone should accept my statement. Such slimey personal attacks in debates are called 'ad hominem' and all they demonstrate is your lack of ability at fair and reasonable argumentation. At 05:08 AM 5/28/2003 +0100, you wrote: btw, most of my comment was directed at the idea that unless you can code in C or C++ you might as well not bother programming at all, which unless you are crazy and an idiot you cant agree with :) Michael A. Hobson Web Programmer IBRC, Inc. email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
I never said that a scripting system alone would be the only way to mod, in fact i'm pretty sure that at some point i agreed that a mix of scripting and C++ _would_ be a good solution. what i was in fact argueing against was teh idea that 'scripts are useless for modding' and the general feel that 'scripts are like VB' and they are generaly 'useless' as proven by other titles which exist. btw, and unrelated to the reply below, someone mentioned about the Valve guys setting up a mailing list for the modders, Epic have done the same thing and are opening up alot of docs/tool for the modders as well :) (and until this C++ vs scripts arguement i got alot more traffic on that list than this one) - Original Message - From: "RDG O'Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts > > On the subject of 'Half-life being the biggest mod community', yes, > this is > > true however it was also pretty much the first as well, it was a few years > > before we saw other games which could be modable. However biggest doesnt > > mean best, look at every mod we've seen for HL, 99% of them are 'oh look its > > a fps we've just changed things a bit' its only recently with NS and ISO > > that things have changed a bit. Now look at UT2K3, its not really been out > > that long and someone has already used UScript to produce a game which is > > nuffin like a fps (Marble maddness), THATS flexiblity. > > Half-Life has had racing mods, several Pong mods and engine upgrades - > all years ago. It's had a viable persistent character system written > entirely as part of a mod, though never implemented. With the Half-Life > SDK, you could feasibly write your own networking component, your own > renderer, your own physics engine. You can write them optimally and > integrate them with the rest of the engine, and it'll all work - and > fast. More and more people have done so, as with the Q3 map loader > discussed on the list a few days back. > > Any scripting system alone would not allow modders to do things like > this. I would not consider that flexible. > > -randomnine- > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
And i wonder how many 'crappy weapon mods' have existed for HL and just faded away.. probably no less. btw, most of my comment was directed at the idea that unless you can code in C or C++ you might as well not bother programming at all, which unless you are crazy and an idiot you cant agree with :) - Original Message - From: "Sniper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts > Truth hurts, doesn't it. The average game out there IS just a bunch of > crappy weapon mods. Take the entire Starsiege: Tribes series for instance. > The mod community was built around a scripting engine the game featured. > Nothing but "double warhammer shotgun flameball thrower plasma bomb > launcher" weapon mods were created. > > There are several different examples of why scripting languages usually lead > to crappy weapon mods. Too many to list. > > Sniper ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
> Assuming there is a scripting language it will have been used to > create HL2 and to allow the engine to work with other games just as > well. The power Valve had to create HL2 isnt enuff for you? :) In that hypothetical case, Valve would have had the option of extending their proprietary scripting system if they came up against a barrier created by the limitations of that system. Modders would not, and would have to put up with the functional limitations of that system. As well as the undocumented quirks of that system, mind. -randomnine- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
> On the subject of 'Half-life being the biggest mod community', yes, this is > true however it was also pretty much the first as well, it was a few years > before we saw other games which could be modable. However biggest doesnt > mean best, look at every mod we've seen for HL, 99% of them are 'oh look its > a fps we've just changed things a bit' its only recently with NS and ISO > that things have changed a bit. Now look at UT2K3, its not really been out > that long and someone has already used UScript to produce a game which is > nuffin like a fps (Marble maddness), THATS flexiblity. Half-Life has had racing mods, several Pong mods and engine upgrades - all years ago. It's had a viable persistent character system written entirely as part of a mod, though never implemented. With the Half-Life SDK, you could feasibly write your own networking component, your own renderer, your own physics engine. You can write them optimally and integrate them with the rest of the engine, and it'll all work - and fast. More and more people have done so, as with the Q3 map loader discussed on the list a few days back. Any scripting system alone would not allow modders to do things like this. I would not consider that flexible. -randomnine- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Truth hurts, doesn't it. The average game out there IS just a bunch of crappy weapon mods. Take the entire Starsiege: Tribes series for instance. The mod community was built around a scripting engine the game featured. Nothing but "double warhammer shotgun flameball thrower plasma bomb launcher" weapon mods were created. There are several different examples of why scripting languages usually lead to crappy weapon mods. Too many to list. Sniper - Original Message - From: "Phantom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael A. Hobson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:18 PM > Subject: RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts > > > > Persons who are not up to programming in C or C++ are not up to > > programming at all and are certainly not skilled enough to produce > anything > > but crappy "weapons mods". > > oh, one last thing, this is the most bigoeted, short sighed and childish > comment in this whole convasion. > Your going to write off the work of everyone who programs in something else > other than C or C++ because they are 'not upto it' if they havent needed to > learn it? > Tell me when you get out into the real world and discover C++ isnt 'all > that' :) > (btw, i'd be intrested to know just how much of C++ you really do know :) ) > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
OMFG MY EMAIL, jesus christ you guys clam DOWN! LOL -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony "omega" Sergi Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 8:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts I'm replying to myself because I just re-read it, it may seem like I have this thing against CS, but I don't. Anyway, more to the point, because of something phantom said about hl being one of the first.. well, no. Quake. I'll bring up quake any day of the week. From what I know/remember, the majority (or at least, a large chunk.. robin with tf, yahn with BSP, steve used to run a quake modding site (he even helped me with some stuff back in the day for quake, thanks steve!) of valve are/were all Quake Modders. It isn't because its written in c/c++ that the mod community is so big; its BECAUSE THEY SUPPORT IT. I've yet to see another retail game where the TEAM sets up a coding mailing list, and other forms of communication to keep community interaction with their project. HL could have had its own variation on QuakeC, and I'm willing to bet it still would have risen to the top. Sure, it may not have lasted AS long, with so many things being recycled, it's the fact that valve has always supported the mod community, being modders themselves that put them to the top. >From what I've seen, even if hl2 used a scripting language, I'd STILL mod for it, unlike unreal. I just don't see the support aspect there. omega Blackened Interactive - http://www.blackened-interactive.com Wavelength - http://www.thewavelength.net > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlcoders- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony "omega" Sergi > Sent: May 26, 2003 11:30 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts > > No other game has counter-strike, and people wanting to clone it either. > No other game has a huge following that thinks CS *IS* the engine, and > that > they want to mod it. > > I just felt like throwing this in for no real reason. I'm all for c/c++ > over > scripting anyway, always have been, however its surely not because of > c/c++ > that there are so many mods. There are hundreds if not thousands of mods > that are by people that don't know how to program anyway, they just want a > piece of the hl mod pie, and most of them are CS players. > > > > > omega > Blackened Interactive - http://www.blackened-interactive.com > Wavelength - http://www.thewavelength.net ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
> I really fail to see why anyone would WANT to be forced into using a > scripting language. Scripting languages are the equivalent of Visual Basic. > And the developers of Unreal Script created UnrealED with Visual Basic. > > I find that hilarious. Anybody that has ever tried to modify/extend UnrealEd would find that comment hilarious. UnrealEd is NOT Visual Basic. UnrealEd has it's own bizarre confusing GUI API (in order to make it cross platform compatible (Windows/Linux/Mac/Playstation2/Xbox/Gamecube). I've seen the Unreal engine source code and it ain't pretty (but it is mighty damn efficient and VERY stable since it's been in use for years). Tim Sweeney is a pretty sharp guy. I'd rank him right up there with John Carmack on game engine programming skills. Unreal Script (created by Tim) is simple, yet powerful, minimal, yet extensible and one of the biggest advantages to Unreal Script is that it doesn't require you to buy any expensive compiler or development tools to create a MOD (or a simple mutator). Someone can create a mutator for a weapon in just 5 minutes following a good tutorial on the Internet. It takes me twice that long just to install Visual C++ (nevermind the time it takes to load a workspace, modify a source code file, recompile the DLL, fix any syntax errors, recompile again, then test out my changes). There are a variety of reasons for using a scripting language (in any environment). Ease of use (good for beginners), no expensive/complicated tools are required, they limit what the end user can do (which is actually a GOOD thing for beginners to help prevent them from shooting themselves in the foot), and they can be cross platform compatible (which reduces development time if you have to support many different platforms and makes your game available to a wider audience). There are many bad reasons for using a scripting language as well. They aren't as efficient as native code (compiled machine code). They aren't always easy to interface to 3rd party libraries. They are often more difficult to debug and/or profile. They require more time and effort by the game developer to create them up front than using a non-scripted language would. Ultimately it comes down to a question of how easy do you want it to be for your game customers to be able to extend your game. I think Valve made a good choice in using DLLs instead of QuakeC or something similar for Half-Life. I think Epic made a good choice in using Unreal Script for Unreal, Unreal Tournament, Unreal 2K3/Unreal Championship and Unreal 2,(notice Epic has put out 4 games in the time Valve has put out 1, makes you go "Hmm."). Each game has a specific type of MOD community and people develop MODs for those games partly because of the environment that's available for creating modifications. Each group has things they like and things they don't like. One is NOT exclusively better than the other. Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
> If you (or ANYONE) belive that C++ is the be all and end all of developement > of games then you need to take a reality check, wake up and stop being so > blinkered. It's not the be all and all. But it is the base for almost any AAA game. So you can't just shove C/C++ aside without looking back. > Anyways, I'm not going to argue this point any more, simply because i've > been in your postion, did some reading and researching into scripting > systems and realised just how good they are and what you can do with them, > and frankly i've had enuff of bashing my head against a brick wall here and > i've better things to do (like work and make a living). > So, go through life beliving C++ is the best if you like, but if you plan on > taking your skills out into the game industry be prepared for a shock and a > kick in the teeth when they use other things as well. The thing is that with only a scripting language Half-Life 2 modding will never be as big. The modders basicly need the same access to the game as the developper had, except maybe the core engine (altho there are ways aorund the enige too). Just like the HL SDK works now. With only scripting this is just not feasable. The scripting would be so complex and feature rich that it would be easier to just start coding in binary code :) The key is a combination of scriping and C/C++, just like game developpers use. The creative staff uses the scripting language to create whatever they want in a simple way. If it doesn't support a certain feature, it's added with C/C++. Just like that, the modder would need the same access. If you want to create a 'simple' mod, you can just use the scripting language only. And you're happy it was all so simple to mod HL. On the other hand, if you want to make a real TC, like a rally mod, you just fire up your favorite C/C++ editor next to the script editor and start working... If you need extra power or a new script feature, you just switch ot your C/C++ window, code it there and then continue with the script. This way you have the best of both worlds. And it allows the creative staff of your mod to do a lot of coding for you with the script, while the core coding team concentrates on the bowels of the engine. Jeroen "ShadowLord" Bogers ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
