Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Yeah this kind of thing I consider a 'minor' violation. Similar to someone winding up on a Saxton Hale server and it's on a stock map. It'd be really hard for them to actively monitor for this. Fake players on the other hand.. I've sent several reports to Fletcher about some servers and he has acknowledged that they're indeed looking in to it, but I've got to wonder if they are, because I have no idea how a community can violate this policy with such active highly ranked servers for so long and get away with it. Not to derail the thread though, but I guess what I'm getting at is if Fake Players takes as long as it does to be acted upon then you can guarantee yourself that a spawn modification will take that much longer. I don't really fault valve for it as they have so many reports to act on, but popular communities who have grown to such a level and have been reported so many times shouldn't be allowed to continue doing what they've been doing. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Yeah - let's not start saying that simply using that plugin is in violation of the rules, bud. We run it, but we have modified it to insure the respawn_times is added to the server browser when it is enabled (we also add the noquickplay tag for good measure). Running that plugin is NOT a violation - running it without modifying it to add the proper tags is (which, by the way, is painfully easy). Let's not start trying to get Valve to ban broad swaths of servers simply for using a certain plugin. There are many of us who have gone to great strides to take those plugins that failed to add the proper tags and modify/rewrite them so as to maintain compliance with Valve's rules. Calling for valve to simply issue blanket bans for their use is a ridiculous idea. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
I think he was just saying the ones that do not modify the tags correctly are breaking the rules. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
This is why I think there should be a Modded game tag for the servers. Or at least some tag for the major plugins. i.e. Saxton Hale, Freak Fortress. The fact is that were not trying to scoop up players into a mode that they don't want to be in as they will instantly leave. On 7/31/2012 10:38 AM, E. Olsen wrote: Yeah - let's not start saying that simply using that plugin is in violation of the rules, bud. We run it, but we have modified it to insure the respawn_times is added to the server browser when it is enabled (we also add the noquickplay tag for good measure). Running that plugin is NOT a violation - running it without modifying it to add the proper tags is (which, by the way, is painfully easy). Let's not start trying to get Valve to ban broad swaths of servers simply for using a certain plugin. There are many of us who have gone to great strides to take those plugins that failed to add the proper tags and modify/rewrite them so as to maintain compliance with Valve's rules. Calling for valve to simply issue blanket bans for their use is a ridiculous idea. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
That's what the server score system is for. If player's constantly leave a server as soon as they are placed in it, that server's score will rapidly decline, and it will get less and less traffic - which is the best way to do it. Valve has had the wisdom to (for the most part) allow the players to decide which are quality servers and which are not. They already tried a custom tab in the server browser years ago, and it was a disaster. Letting the players decide which servers deserve their traffic (by way of sustained playtime) is democracy in action. Players are voting with their playtime, plain and simple. Quite frankly, if more server operators focused on creating a unique and valuable playing environment for their players, as well as actively supporting their servers through active seeding efforts (as opposed to worrying about what the other guy is or isn't doing), most of them would have alot more success filling their servers. I frankly don't give a damn if some of those shady operators want to use bots, fake slots, premium crap, or any of that other junk to try to trick players onto their servers. The vast majority of players are far smarter than that, and they eventually find servers like ours that stay both compliant with Valve's rules, AND maintain a unique playing space. Quite honestly, I find the whole my servers are more vanilla than their servers, so I should get more zero-effort traffic! argument tiresome at best. Quickplay has lulled a whole new generation of server operators into thinking that building a gaming community is as easy as throwing up a few vanilla servers and pressing the easy button. As soon as that traffic (over which they have zero control) is interrupted in any way - they go looking for the competition whom they feel has no right to their (un-earned) traffic unless they are just as plain-jane as they are. That's not to say there's anything wrong with Vanilla servers, of course (we run several), but as TF2 is a 5 year old game, if a server operator's only argument for receiving blind player traffic is that they are as plain and generic as they can be, I have to wonder what they are offering players that the hundreds of Valve servers do not? This is where, IMHO, Valve is sending the wrong message with Quickplay. While I fully understand that they created and optimized the game for 24 players, and they want to push people to play it their waythe fact is we are over 4 years in, and thousands upon thousands of players PREFER 32 player servers, altered spawn times, custom maps, etc. etc. While quickplay is an interesting idea, in the context of introducing it to a mature game like TF2, it is a flawed implementation. Again, it should always be all about letting the *players* decide. With that in mind, why (after a certain amount of time) does quickplay not offer the CHOICE of connecting the player(s) to a modified server? Again, this should be a CHOICE players can make simply by checking or un-checking a box that says allow custom servers in the quickplay interface. Valve could even incentivise that by only unlocking that option after X amount of playtime, or only as a feature for players who have spent X amount at the valve store, etc. Anyhoo the point is - the best judge of whether a server is good or not should always (IMHO) be left up to the players themselves - and that's a system that is painfully easy to implement. Long overall playtimes = good servers, period. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Cameron Munroe cmun...@cameronmunroe.comwrote: This is why I think there should be a Modded game tag for the servers. Or at least some tag for the major plugins. i.e. Saxton Hale, Freak Fortress. The fact is that were not trying to scoop up players into a mode that they don't want to be in as they will instantly leave. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
They have the choice. It's called the server browser. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 11:21 AM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote: This is where, IMHO, Valve is sending the wrong message with Quickplay. While I fully understand that they created and optimized the game for 24 players, and they want to push people to play it their waythe fact is we are over 4 years in, and thousands upon thousands of players PREFER 32 player servers, altered spawn times, custom maps, etc. etc. While quickplay is an interesting idea, in the context of introducing it to a mature game like TF2, it is a flawed implementation. Again, it should always be all about letting the players decide. With that in mind, why (after a certain amount of time) does quickplay not offer the CHOICE of connecting the player(s) to a modified server? Again, this should be a CHOICE players can make simply by checking or un-checking a box that says allow custom servers in the quickplay interface. Valve could even incentivise that by only unlocking that option after X amount of playtime, or only as a feature for players who have spent X amount at the valve store, etc. Anyhoo the point is - the best judge of whether a server is good or not should always (IMHO) be left up to the players themselves - and that's a system that is painfully easy to implement. Long overall playtimes = good servers, period. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
If you read my statement I did not call for Valve to ban anyone who uses the plugin. I called for them to ban all servers who are in violation of the policy. I did find that of the 39 servers I looked at none of them had modified their sv_tags. My point is the violations are rampant. Please do not put words in my mouth. There are hundreds of servers who have not taken these steps are using a fast respawn plugin and still benefiting from quickplay. Honestly I think Valve is either not able to or just isn't regulating this so I would prefer the policy just be changed so those of us who use mp_respawnwavetimes. I get more complaints about the respawn times being too long than I do for cheaters and griefers. It is obvious more servers are violating this policy than aren't. - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 1:38:36 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Yeah - let's not start saying that simply using that plugin is in violation of the rules, bud. We run it, but we have modified it to insure the respawn_times is added to the server browser when it is enabled (we also add the noquickplay tag for good measure). Running that plugin is NOT a violation - running it without modifying it to add the proper tags is (which, by the way, is painfully easy). Let's not start trying to get Valve to ban broad swaths of servers simply for using a certain plugin. There are many of us who have gone to great strides to take those plugins that failed to add the proper tags and modify/rewrite them so as to maintain compliance with Valve's rules. Calling for valve to simply issue blanket bans for their use is a ridiculous idea. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
I'd generally agree with you on everything other than fake players that are specifically designed to FOOL the system that decides whether players should be sent to it in the first place. No players? No problem, we'll load Fake Players. If no one reports those servers for breaking a policy, nothing gets done about it. People are perfectly within their rights to focus on servers abusing the system. Admins are perfectly within their rights to report other communities for abusing it. Everyone being indifferent to the problems doesn't help matters. Like I said, I agree about the whole 'let the experience and users dictate the server popularity'. I do not agree that owners of servers should ignore other server owners abusing the policy. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
That is the whole point of my argument. It is very apparent the thousands of new players who joined after TF2 went F2P prefer fast respawntimes and often prefer 32 player servers. However, if you run a server within the rules of Valve's policy of truth you do not get the benefit of the quickplay system and a 32 player server using mp_respawnwavetimes has no chance against violators of the policy. Do not say its because I don't know how to run a server either. All my 24 player servers are 100 percent full for 3/4 of the day. People who play 32 player expect fast respawns and the rules should apply to us all. - Original Message - From: Phillip Vector t...@mostdeadlygame.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 2:28:56 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? They have the choice. It's called the server browser. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 11:21 AM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote: This is where, IMHO, Valve is sending the wrong message with Quickplay. While I fully understand that they created and optimized the game for 24 players, and they want to push people to play it their waythe fact is we are over 4 years in, and thousands upon thousands of players PREFER 32 player servers, altered spawn times, custom maps, etc. etc. While quickplay is an interesting idea, in the context of introducing it to a mature game like TF2, it is a flawed implementation. Again, it should always be all about letting the players decide. With that in mind, why (after a certain amount of time) does quickplay not offer the CHOICE of connecting the player(s) to a modified server? Again, this should be a CHOICE players can make simply by checking or un-checking a box that says allow custom servers in the quickplay interface. Valve could even incentivise that by only unlocking that option after X amount of playtime, or only as a feature for players who have spent X amount at the valve store, etc. Anyhoo the point is - the best judge of whether a server is good or not should always (IMHO) be left up to the players themselves - and that's a system that is painfully easy to implement. Long overall playtimes = good servers, period. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Of course I agree that rules should apply to everyone equally. However, saying that a *a 32 player server using mp_respawnwavetimes has no chance against violators of the policy.* isn't even remotely true. I'm looking at 10 of my servers that are full (32-players) right now that have the following tags set: * HlstatsX:CE,_registered,increased_maxplayers,noquickplay,replays,respawntimes * Obviously, with those tags set, they are not currently receiving any quickplay traffic, yet they will remain full until 1-3am EST. Are modified servers like that harder to fill since the addition of quickplay? Of course - but it is certainly not impossible. Hell, we run a 32-player server that runs nothing but 26 custom payload maps, and it is the busiest server in our fleet. My point being that while I understand and agree that everyone should be held to the same standard to maintain a level playing field - the fact that some people break the rules does not prevent your server (or any server) from being successful. It makes it slightly more difficult, perhapsbut certainly not impossible with consistent traffic-building/server seeding efforts. Building a core-group of server regulars is something that takes a huge amount of time - and with the age of TF2, it is only going to get harder, but I don't think anything any other server operator does can prevent someone else's success. Sure, server admins are within their rights to seek out and report violators if they wish to - my point was that their time would probably be better spend focusing on what they're doing, as opposed to what the other guys are. I honestly have not set foot on anyone else's TF2 servers in 3+ years, nor do I try to bird-dog the server browser - simply because I don't care what they are doing - my focus is on my servers, and delivering the experience my players want. Take that for what it's worth. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: That is the whole point of my argument. It is very apparent the thousands of new players who joined after TF2 went F2P prefer fast respawntimes and often prefer 32 player servers. However, if you run a server within the rules of Valve's policy of truth you do not get the benefit of the quickplay system and a 32 player server using mp_respawnwavetimes has no chance against violators of the policy. Do not say its because I don't know how to run a server either. All my 24 player servers are 100 percent full for 3/4 of the day. People who play 32 player expect fast respawns and the rules should apply to us all. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Olsen, it sounds more to me like you've been building your community for a while, possibly even before Quickplay and have a very solid group of players. Nowadays, most veteran TF2 players have their own community servers they visit. I'd wager a guess to say it's nearly impossible to build a server from the ground up at this point in TF2's lifetime without Quickplay. I'm not sure what you mean when you say it's not impossible as modifying the respawn times with Quickplay disqualifies you from it completely. So yes, it is impossible. I think that's the problem he has with servers being able to modify Quickplay tag with WoZers plugin (That doesn't modify the tag) and his servers. He's saying he'd like to just be Quickplay capable and modify the respawn timers without a plugin. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
I think that these plugins that Todd posted are really breaking the rules of quickplay and the owners should be punished accordingly. They might not do it willingly, might have just grabbed a plugin and now know about the rules of quickplay. Then again, if they registered their servers to receive traffic, they will know about the rules too. So, there should be made a check which of these servers that use these 2 plugins are using it as is, without setting the tag. Those plugins do not set the tag and they have been disproved for it. Also, it's not so easy to keep server populated after quickplay came in. A lot of custom map servers and over 24 slotters took a big hit. Even if you have regulars, there never isn't going to be enough of those in every area and some regulars have gone, what is replacing them is new players through quickplay and that is impossible if there are more than 24 slots (penalty is too high) or custom maps (no traffic while they are on, except through server browser). So those people that cheat with the plugins and faking tags are winning. I don't mind competition but servers breaking the rules - it's hard to compete against them. It means less players for rest of us, while the rulebreakers get players through quickplay despite having modified respawn times with plugins that don't set the tags. -ics 31.7.2012 21:58, E. Olsen kirjoitti: Of course I agree that rules should apply to everyone equally. However, saying that a /a 32 player server using mp_respawnwavetimes has no chance against violators of the policy./ isn't even remotely true. I'm looking at 10 of my servers that are full (32-players) right now that have the following tags set: *HlstatsX:CE,_registered,increased_maxplayers,noquickplay,replays,respawntimes* Obviously, with those tags set, they are not currently receiving any quickplay traffic, yet they will remain full until 1-3am EST. Are modified servers like that harder to fill since the addition of quickplay? Of course - but it is certainly not impossible. Hell, we run a 32-player server that runs nothing but 26 custom payload maps, and it is the busiest server in our fleet. My point being that while I understand and agree that everyone should be held to the same standard to maintain a level playing field - the fact that some people break the rules does not prevent your server (or any server) from being successful. It makes it slightly more difficult, perhapsbut certainly not impossible with consistent traffic-building/server seeding efforts. Building a core-group of server regulars is something that takes a huge amount of time - and with the age of TF2, it is only going to get harder, but I don't think anything any other server operator does can prevent someone else's success. Sure, server admins are within their rights to seek out and report violators if they wish to - my point was that their time would probably be better spend focusing on what they're doing, as opposed to what the other guys are. I honestly have not set foot on anyone else's TF2 servers in 3+ years, nor do I try to bird-dog the server browser - simply because I don't care what they are doing - my focus is on my servers, and delivering the experience my players want. Take that for what it's worth. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com mailto:pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: That is the whole point of my argument. It is very apparent the thousands of new players who joined after TF2 went F2P prefer fast respawntimes and often prefer 32 player servers. However, if you run a server within the rules of Valve's policy of truth you do not get the benefit of the quickplay system and a 32 player server using mp_respawnwavetimes has no chance against violators of the policy. Do not say its because I don't know how to run a server either. All my 24 player servers are 100 percent full for 3/4 of the day. People who play 32 player expect fast respawns and the rules should apply to us all. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
I also have some servers that are 32 players with the appropriate tags that are established. My point is if I changed over to the fast respawn plugins and took advantage of quickplay I could have it rolling in less than a week. I never said it was impossible its just not an even playing field. The vast majority of servers using fast respawns are doing it in violation of the policy. So either the policy should be changed so it does not punish admins following the rules and reward violators or start de-listing violators until they comply. This is no different that using bot plugins and fake clients. Its a policy violation to gain a competitive advantage. It's pretty easy to crowd out competition if they run out of money simply due to violators siphoning off players. All of this is a moot point. Violators should be punished or the policy should be changed either way I don't care. - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 2:58:23 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Of course I agree that rules should apply to everyone equally. However, saying that a a 32 player server using mp_respawnwavetimes has no chance against violators of the policy. isn't even remotely true. I'm looking at 10 of my servers that are full (32-players) right now that have the following tags set: HlstatsX:CE,_registered,increased_maxplayers,noquickplay,replays,respawntimes Obviously, with those tags set, they are not currently receiving any quickplay traffic, yet they will remain full until 1-3am EST. Are modified servers like that harder to fill since the addition of quickplay? Of course - but it is certainly not impossible. Hell, we run a 32-player server that runs nothing but 26 custom payload maps, and it is the busiest server in our fleet. My point being that while I understand and agree that everyone should be held to the same standard to maintain a level playing field - the fact that some people break the rules does not prevent your server (or any server) from being successful. It makes it slightly more difficult, perhapsbut certainly not impossible with consistent traffic-building/server seeding efforts. Building a core-group of server regulars is something that takes a huge amount of time - and with the age of TF2, it is only going to get harder, but I don't think anything any other server operator does can prevent someone else's success. Sure, server admins are within their rights to seek out and report violators if they wish to - my point was that their time would probably be better spend focusing on what they're doing, as opposed to what the other guys are. I honestly have not set foot on anyone else's TF2 servers in 3+ years, nor do I try to bird-dog the server browser - simply because I don't care what they are doing - my focus is on my servers, and delivering the experience my players want. Take that for what it's worth. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: That is the whole point of my argument. It is very apparent the thousands of new players who joined after TF2 went F2P prefer fast respawntimes and often prefer 32 player servers. However, if you run a server within the rules of Valve's policy of truth you do not get the benefit of the quickplay system and a 32 player server using mp_respawnwavetimes has no chance against violators of the policy. Do not say its because I don't know how to run a server either. All my 24 player servers are 100 percent full for 3/4 of the day. People who play 32 player expect fast respawns and the rules should apply to us all. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
The point is - that's impossible to do fairly. We DO run that plugin, but on the maps where it is disabled (i.e. sm_respawn_time_enabled 0) that plugin is technically still RUNNING, but since fast respawn is disabled, the sv_tag is not set. See my point - you can't just poll a bunch of servers running a plugin and ban them outright, as the plugin may be running but disabled for that particular map (which would therefore not require the respawntimes tag to be set). Actually, this whole argument would be a moot point if Valve could just implement settings in the engine itself that allows us the same functionality of the fast respawn plugins, and automatically sets the proper tag if/when they are modified (I think this would be the optimal solution). That way - server operators that want/need fast respawn times on certain maps/servers could transition away from using plugins all together, and Valve could implement allow a couple of months for server operators to change their servers over to the new system, after which fast respawn plugins could be outlawed all together ;-) On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 3:15 PM, ics i...@ics-base.net wrote: I think that these plugins that Todd posted are really breaking the rules of quickplay and the owners should be punished accordingly. They might not do it willingly, might have just grabbed a plugin and now know about the rules of quickplay. Then again, if they registered their servers to receive traffic, they will know about the rules too. So, there should be made a check which of these servers that use these 2 plugins are using it as is, without setting the tag. Those plugins do not set the tag and they have been disproved for it. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
It's failrly easy. If you enable that plugin that breaks the rules, you disable quickplay traffic with cvar tf_server_identity_disable_quickplay 1. In that case, you do not break the rules. How can you expect Valve to save you if the plugin creators are ignorant of their rules. What you are asking for isn't going to happen. You need to be self-aware about these things and set the tags yourself if you use these plugins that do not set the appropriate tags. -ics 31.7.2012 22:25, E. Olsen kirjoitti: The point is - that's impossible to do fairly. We DO run that plugin, but on the maps where it is disabled (i.e. sm_respawn_time_enabled 0) that plugin is technically still RUNNING, but since fast respawn is disabled, the sv_tag is not set. See my point - you can't just poll a bunch of servers running a plugin and ban them outright, as the plugin may be running but disabled for that particular map (which would therefore not require the respawntimes tag to be set). Actually, this whole argument would be a moot point if Valve could just implement settings in the engine itself that allows us the same functionality of the fast respawn plugins, and automatically sets the proper tag if/when they are modified (I think this would be the optimal solution). That way - server operators that want/need fast respawn times on certain maps/servers could transition away from using plugins all together, and Valve could implement allow a couple of months for server operators to change their servers over to the new system, after which fast respawn plugins could be outlawed all together ;-) On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 3:15 PM, ics i...@ics-base.net mailto:i...@ics-base.net wrote: I think that these plugins that Todd posted are really breaking the rules of quickplay and the owners should be punished accordingly. They might not do it willingly, might have just grabbed a plugin and now know about the rules of quickplay. Then again, if they registered their servers to receive traffic, they will know about the rules too. So, there should be made a check which of these servers that use these 2 plugins are using it as is, without setting the tag. Those plugins do not set the tag and they have been disproved for it. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Technically you still break the rules because the rule talks about misrepresenting gameplay on the server ie no gravity, all crits, fast respawns not reported correctly in sv_tags. The only real reason to even need those plugins is to violate the policy otherwise it iss so simple to add mp_respawnwatimes 3 to a map config and then the reporting is handled for you. - Original Message - From: ics i...@ics-base.net To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:29:31 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? It's failrly easy. If you enable that plugin that breaks the rules, you disable quickplay traffic with cvar tf_server_identity_disable_quickplay 1. In that case, you do not break the rules. How can you expect Valve to save you if the plugin creators are ignorant of their rules. What you are asking for isn't going to happen. You need to be self-aware about these things and set the tags yourself if you use these plugins that do not set the appropriate tags. -ics 31.7.2012 22:25, E. Olsen kirjoitti: The point is - that's impossible to do fairly. We DO run that plugin, but on the maps where it is disabled (i.e. sm_respawn_time_enabled 0) that plugin is technically still RUNNING, but since fast respawn is disabled, the sv_tag is not set. See my point - you can't just poll a bunch of servers running a plugin and ban them outright, as the plugin may be running but disabled for that particular map (which would therefore not require the respawntimes tag to be set). Actually, this whole argument would be a moot point if Valve could just implement settings in the engine itself that allows us the same functionality of the fast respawn plugins, and automatically sets the proper tag if/when they are modified (I think this would be the optimal solution). That way - server operators that want/need fast respawn times on certain maps/servers could transition away from using plugins all together, and Valve could implement allow a couple of months for server operators to change their servers over to the new system, after which fast respawn plugins could be outlawed all together ;-) On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 3:15 PM, ics i...@ics-base.net wrote: I think that these plugins that Todd posted are really breaking the rules of quickplay and the owners should be punished accordingly. They might not do it willingly, might have just grabbed a plugin and now know about the rules of quickplay. Then again, if they registered their servers to receive traffic, they will know about the rules too. So, there should be made a check which of these servers that use these 2 plugins are using it as is, without setting the tag. Those plugins do not set the tag and they have been disproved for it. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Meh - I think delisting/banning servers for merely altered spawn times is killing a mosquito with a sledgehammer. Remove them from quickplay? Sure - why not...but if their only violation (which, I would guess, many server operators are ignorant of) is changing spawn times, then the thing that people are asking for here (their removal of eligibility for quickplay traffic) would accomplish the same thing they are asking for. No offense, but most of these traffic discussions sounds alot like sour grapes. How about we do this - ban all the servers for any kind of violation(s) of the policy for X number of weeks - but also make receiving any quickplay traffic contingent upon having your server at least 50% full with real players? That way, those of us who are always in compliance, yet still work on traffic building on our own will reap the most benefit? That sounds fair to me. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Fair thing would be following the rules that Valve has placed in. Obviously there always will be rulebreakers but their numbers would significantly decrease either by temporarely punishements or by more permanent. Obviously there will be those who get banned and say Valve killed our servers but fail to mention that they broke the rules and that's why their donations ran dry etc. If the risk get caught is bigger, people wouldn't run these plugins as much as they do now. I agree that the game has to have variety but servers should be tagged accordingly. Disabling quickplay by cvar is fair to others if you run something that isn't quickplay eglible. That's just the way it is. -ics 31.7.2012 22:52, E. Olsen kirjoitti: Meh - I think delisting/banning servers for merely altered spawn times is killing a mosquito with a sledgehammer. Remove them from quickplay? Sure - why not...but if their only violation (which, I would guess, many server operators are ignorant of) is changing spawn times, then the thing that people are asking for here (their removal of eligibility for quickplay traffic) would accomplish the same thing they are asking for. No offense, but most of these traffic discussions sounds alot like sour grapes. How about we do this - ban all the servers for any kind of violation(s) of the policy for X number of weeks - but also make receiving any quickplay traffic contingent upon having your server at least 50% full with real players? That way, those of us who are always in compliance, yet still work on traffic building on our own will reap the most benefit? That sounds fair to me. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
The policy is clear and has been in place for months. Admins using fake clients were not warned and several of those are the current violators. Ban them. They are repeat offenders and they are masking it. They took the risk. They are aware of the policy. It is not sour grapes. Some servers are in violation others are not but violators receive a benefit that is in clear violation of a long standing policy and is clearly articulated on alliedmodders as well. Ignorance is not a defense. I am sure a lot of people who jaywalk are ignorant of the law but it will not stop you from getting a ticket. - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:52:00 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Meh - I think delisting/banning servers for merely altered spawn times is killing a mosquito with a sledgehammer. Remove them from quickplay? Sure - why not...but if their only violation (which, I would guess, many server operators are ignorant of) is changing spawn times, then the thing that people are asking for here (their removal of eligibility for quickplay traffic) would accomplish the same thing they are asking for. No offense, but most of these traffic discussions sounds alot like sour grapes. How about we do this - ban all the servers for any kind of violation(s) of the policy for X number of weeks - but also make receiving any quickplay traffic contingent upon having your server at least 50% full with real players? That way, those of us who are always in compliance, yet still work on traffic building on our own will reap the most benefit? That sounds fair to me. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Yeah I kind of feel like an outright ban for the spawn timing thing is slightly overkill. But, at the same time, this policy has been in place long enough to where you would think there aren't any Admins/Owners who aren't aware of it. That seems to make it more of a foul in my opinion. What I'm really against are the servers who benefit from Quickplay by utilizing Fake Clients that trick the system in to thinking humans are actually playing. SteamIDs, Avatars, Pings, the works. This is the kind of offense that should have a no tolerance policy. Most other settings, I feel, should be fair game (I know it's not that way, and while it isn't, servers should adhere) but I am with Olsen in that the community will dictate what they want to play. I think Valve just doesn't want players to get the wrong idea by joining some server with instant respawns, etc. But does it really matter? They're already being throw in to Saxton Hale servers and the like. I think it's about time to relax those policies and let the community decide what they like to play. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
I am fine with changing the policy. In fact I wish they would since the vast majority of popular communities are using fast respawn. It is obvious players prefer faster respawns especially on 32 player servers. Right now though servers in compliance are penalized for obeying the rules. If you report respawnwavetimes correctly you are completely removed from quickplay. Not enforcing the policy ends up validating abuse of the policy. I agree the fake pings, clients, and avatars is a much more grievous violation but both have the same purpose to gain an unjust advantage on rule abiding communities. There is no way you can convince me that major communities who have been delisted for fake clients in the past are not well aware they are willfully violating this policy for a competitive advantage. If there was no advantage they would not bother and take the additional risk. De-list the major violators and send a message. - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:29:18 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Yeah I kind of feel like an outright ban for the spawn timing thing is slightly overkill. But, at the same time, this policy has been in place long enough to where you would think there aren't any Admins/Owners who aren't aware of it. That seems to make it more of a foul in my opinion. What I'm really against are the servers who benefit from Quickplay by utilizing Fake Clients that trick the system in to thinking humans are actually playing. SteamIDs, Avatars, Pings, the works. This is the kind of offense that should have a no tolerance policy. Most other settings, I feel, should be fair game (I know it's not that way, and while it isn't, servers should adhere) but I am with Olsen in that the community will dictate what they want to play. I think Valve just doesn't want players to get the wrong idea by joining some server with instant respawns, etc. But does it really matter? They're already being throw in to Saxton Hale servers and the like. I think it's about time to relax those policies and let the community decide what they like to play. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
I just think people have to be careful in thinking that everything comes down to back white. I'll give you a specific example: A few months ago when I had the fast respawn plugin we use re-written by a Sorucemod coder to insure it added the proper sv_tags, an error was introduced that went unnoticed for almost 6 weeks. For some reason, whatever the coder did (which, I have no idea, I have to pay freelancers to get these things done for me) somehow caused the increased_maxplayers tag to disappear when it added the respawntimes tag, even though my servers were set above 24 slots. Now, that is something I certainly did not intend to do (I didn't even think it was possible, as that's hard-coded into the engine), and I only happened to notice it when checking our servers in the browser one day. Now, as soon as I saw that, I contacted the coder and he found/fixed the error that caused it - but I certainly wasn't trying to game the system, it was an innocent coding error. Should everyone be aware of the rules? Sure - but unless it's something truly intentional and nefarious like the fake clients thing described above, then outright bans of servers is extreme. I agree ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but the last time I checked we didn't put jaywalkers in front of firing squads either. There needs to be a reasonable level of response to these types of things. A written warning with X amount of time to comply (with graduating consequences for non-compliance such as revoking quickplay eligibility, temporary delisting, followed by a perma-ban) is absolutely appropriate and acceptable. Those server operators that are less-tech savvy than others may someday put a plugin on their server that (as the example I noted above) causes unintended non-compliance in one or more areas, without their knowledge. A simple warning to these folks would go a long way towards preserving goodwill in the server community as a whole. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
So in light of what you just implied on 32 slot servers running fast respawn and faking it, i had my own 30 slot servers forcibly turned to 24 slots due to lack of real players. Not alone by the slot count, i also run custom maps on them but partly. There were also a lot of official maps on the cycle byt the penalty was too great and no new players ever got assigned in. So the tags faking(lacking 30-32 slotters get the traffic that was off from me completely. 2 edged sword. Now it kills the servers obeying the rules. -ics 31.7.2012 23:41, Todd Pettit kirjoitti: I am fine with changing the policy. In fact I wish they would since the vast majority of popular communities are using fast respawn. It is obvious players prefer faster respawns especially on 32 player servers. Right now though servers in compliance are penalized for obeying the rules. If you report respawnwavetimes correctly you are completely removed from quickplay. Not enforcing the policy ends up validating abuse of the policy. I agree the fake pings, clients, and avatars is a much more grievous violation but both have the same purpose to gain an unjust advantage on rule abiding communities. There is no way you can convince me that major communities who have been delisted for fake clients in the past are not well aware they are willfully violating this policy for a competitive advantage. If there was no advantage they would not bother and take the additional risk. De-list the major violators and send a message. - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:29:18 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Yeah I kind of feel like an outright ban for the spawn timing thing is slightly overkill. But, at the same time, this policy has been in place long enough to where you would think there aren't any Admins/Owners who aren't aware of it. That seems to make it more of a foul in my opinion. What I'm really against are the servers who benefit from Quickplay by utilizing Fake Clients that trick the system in to thinking humans are actually playing. SteamIDs, Avatars, Pings, the works. This is the kind of offense that should have a no tolerance policy. Most other settings, I feel, should be fair game (I know it's not that way, and while it isn't, servers should adhere) but I am with Olsen in that the community will dictate what they want to play. I think Valve just doesn't want players to get the wrong idea by joining some server with instant respawns, etc. But does it really matter? They're already being throw in to Saxton Hale servers and the like. I think it's about time to relax those policies and let the community decide what they like to play. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Sweet Lord. Lotusclan and Skial are doing it so are Wonkagaming.net and so is Battlegrounds who is coincidentally using fake clients as well and they sure as hell know they are in violation because they have all been de-listed for using fake clients. That right there is 250-300 flagrant violators. You don't think lotus and skial knew what they were doing when they renamed their plugins? Both of them have 8 sec Blue team respawns and no sv_tags. How hard is it to understand if you break the policy you are in violation. It is black and white if you are too lazy to learn scripting and do not check the effects of a plugin you purchase you are still ultimately responsible for your servers. So yes you should be de-listed if it was caught. They do not send you a warning for fake clients. Ignorance is not an excuse if you are incompetent. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). You mean they like servers which manipulate the system to gain a competitive advantage. If you don't know the speed limit does that excuse you from a speeding ticket? NO! - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:46:26 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? I just think people have to be careful in thinking that everything comes down to back white. I'll give you a specific example: A few months ago when I had the fast respawn plugin we use re-written by a Sorucemod coder to insure it added the proper sv_tags, an error was introduced that went unnoticed for almost 6 weeks. For some reason, whatever the coder did (which, I have no idea, I have to pay freelancers to get these things done for me) somehow caused the increased_maxplayers tag to disappear when it added the respawntimes tag, even though my servers were set above 24 slots. Now, that is something I certainly did not intend to do (I didn't even think it was possible, as that's hard-coded into the engine), and I only happened to notice it when checking our servers in the browser one day. Now, as soon as I saw that, I contacted the coder and he found/fixed the error that caused it - but I certainly wasn't trying to game the system, it was an innocent coding error. Should everyone be aware of the rules? Sure - but unless it's something truly intentional and nefarious like the fake clients thing described above, then outright bans of servers is extreme. I agree ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but the last time I checked we didn't put jaywalkers in front of firing squads either. There needs to be a reasonable level of response to these types of things. A written warning with X amount of time to comply (with graduating consequences for non-compliance such as revoking quickplay eligibility, temporary delisting, followed by a perma-ban) is absolutely appropriate and acceptable. Those server operators that are less-tech savvy than others may someday put a plugin on their server that (as the example I noted above) causes unintended non-compliance in one or more areas, without their knowledge. A simple warning to these folks would go a long way towards preserving goodwill in the server community as a whole. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
- Original Message - From: ics i...@ics-base.net To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:51:40 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? So in light of what you just implied on 32 slot servers running fast respawn and faking it, i had my own 30 slot servers forcibly turned to 24 slots due to lack of real players. Not alone by the slot count, i also run custom maps on them but partly. There were also a lot of official maps on the cycle byt the penalty was too great and no new players ever got assigned in. So the tags faking(lacking 30-32 slotters get the traffic that was off from me completely. 2 edged sword. Now it kills the servers obeying the rules. -ics The policy states anything misrepresenting the expected gameplay of the server without the appropriate tags is in violation of the policy of truth. If you are faking a 24 player by blocking increased_maxplayers you are in violation and should be delisted. I am not sure what your argument even was. I think fast respawns should be like 32 player servers. It should not remove you from quickplay but should have a penalty. Irregardless if you are still using the plugin to avoid reporting the proper tags so you can avoid being removed from the quickplay pool you should have all your servers de-listed today. No warning. Not Tomorrow. If you are in violation you are in violation. Simple as that. Suffer the consequences. 31.7.2012 23:41, Todd Pettit kirjoitti: I am fine with changing the policy. In fact I wish they would since the vast majority of popular communities are using fast respawn. It is obvious players prefer faster respawns especially on 32 player servers. Right now though servers in compliance are penalized for obeying the rules. If you report respawnwavetimes correctly you are completely removed from quickplay. Not enforcing the policy ends up validating abuse of the policy. I agree the fake pings, clients, and avatars is a much more grievous violation but both have the same purpose to gain an unjust advantage on rule abiding communities. There is no way you can convince me that major communities who have been delisted for fake clients in the past are not well aware they are willfully violating this policy for a competitive advantage. If there was no advantage they would not bother and take the additional risk. De-list the major violators and send a message. - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:29:18 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Yeah I kind of feel like an outright ban for the spawn timing thing is slightly overkill. But, at the same time, this policy has been in place long enough to where you would think there aren't any Admins/Owners who aren't aware of it. That seems to make it more of a foul in my opinion. What I'm really against are the servers who benefit from Quickplay by utilizing Fake Clients that trick the system in to thinking humans are actually playing. SteamIDs, Avatars, Pings, the works. This is the kind of offense that should have a no tolerance policy. Most other settings, I feel, should be fair game (I know it's not that way, and while it isn't, servers should adhere) but I am with Olsen in that the community will dictate what they want to play. I think Valve just doesn't want players to get the wrong idea by joining some server with instant respawns, etc. But does it really matter? They're already being throw in to Saxton Hale servers and the like. I think it's about time to relax those policies and let the community decide what they like to play. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
My point was that the servers running over 32 slots, faking tags and with modified respawn times receive the traffic that normally would go to good behaving over 24 slot server that has a penalty for increased slot count. It's a small part of quickplay traffic but still. After quickplay came in town, it's very hard to have over 24 slot server populated in this part of the world. -ics 1.8.2012 0:36, Todd Pettit kirjoitti: - Original Message - From: ics i...@ics-base.net To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:51:40 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? So in light of what you just implied on 32 slot servers running fast respawn and faking it, i had my own 30 slot servers forcibly turned to 24 slots due to lack of real players. Not alone by the slot count, i also run custom maps on them but partly. There were also a lot of official maps on the cycle byt the penalty was too great and no new players ever got assigned in. So the tags faking(lacking 30-32 slotters get the traffic that was off from me completely. 2 edged sword. Now it kills the servers obeying the rules. -ics The policy states anything misrepresenting the expected gameplay of the server without the appropriate tags is in violation of the policy of truth. If you are faking a 24 player by blocking increased_maxplayers you are in violation and should be delisted. I am not sure what your argument even was. I think fast respawns should be like 32 player servers. It should not remove you from quickplay but should have a penalty. Irregardless if you are still using the plugin to avoid reporting the proper tags so you can avoid being removed from the quickplay pool you should have all your servers de-listed today. No warning. Not Tomorrow. If you are in violation you are in violation. Simple as that. Suffer the consequences. 31.7.2012 23:41, Todd Pettit kirjoitti: I am fine with changing the policy. In fact I wish they would since the vast majority of popular communities are using fast respawn. It is obvious players prefer faster respawns especially on 32 player servers. Right now though servers in compliance are penalized for obeying the rules. If you report respawnwavetimes correctly you are completely removed from quickplay. Not enforcing the policy ends up validating abuse of the policy. I agree the fake pings, clients, and avatars is a much more grievous violation but both have the same purpose to gain an unjust advantage on rule abiding communities. There is no way you can convince me that major communities who have been delisted for fake clients in the past are not well aware they are willfully violating this policy for a competitive advantage. If there was no advantage they would not bother and take the additional risk. De-list the major violators and send a message. - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:29:18 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Yeah I kind of feel like an outright ban for the spawn timing thing is slightly overkill. But, at the same time, this policy has been in place long enough to where you would think there aren't any Admins/Owners who aren't aware of it. That seems to make it more of a foul in my opinion. What I'm really against are the servers who benefit from Quickplay by utilizing Fake Clients that trick the system in to thinking humans are actually playing. SteamIDs, Avatars, Pings, the works. This is the kind of offense that should have a no tolerance policy. Most other settings, I feel, should be fair game (I know it's not that way, and while it isn't, servers should adhere) but I am with Olsen in that the community will dictate what they want to play. I think Valve just doesn't want players to get the wrong idea by joining some server with instant respawns, etc. But does it really matter? They're already being throw in to Saxton Hale servers and the like. I think it's about time to relax those policies and let the community decide what they like to play. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Over 32.. ment to say over 24. -ics 1.8.2012 0:41, ics kirjoitti: My point was that the servers running over 32 slots, faking tags and with modified respawn times receive the traffic that normally would go to good behaving over 24 slot server that has a penalty for increased slot count. It's a small part of quickplay traffic but still. After quickplay came in town, it's very hard to have over 24 slot server populated in this part of the world. -ics 1.8.2012 0:36, Todd Pettit kirjoitti: - Original Message - From: ics i...@ics-base.net To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:51:40 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? So in light of what you just implied on 32 slot servers running fast respawn and faking it, i had my own 30 slot servers forcibly turned to 24 slots due to lack of real players. Not alone by the slot count, i also run custom maps on them but partly. There were also a lot of official maps on the cycle byt the penalty was too great and no new players ever got assigned in. So the tags faking(lacking 30-32 slotters get the traffic that was off from me completely. 2 edged sword. Now it kills the servers obeying the rules. -ics The policy states anything misrepresenting the expected gameplay of the server without the appropriate tags is in violation of the policy of truth. If you are faking a 24 player by blocking increased_maxplayers you are in violation and should be delisted. I am not sure what your argument even was. I think fast respawns should be like 32 player servers. It should not remove you from quickplay but should have a penalty. Irregardless if you are still using the plugin to avoid reporting the proper tags so you can avoid being removed from the quickplay pool you should have all your servers de-listed today. No warning. Not Tomorrow. If you are in violation you are in violation. Simple as that. Suffer the consequences. 31.7.2012 23:41, Todd Pettit kirjoitti: I am fine with changing the policy. In fact I wish they would since the vast majority of popular communities are using fast respawn. It is obvious players prefer faster respawns especially on 32 player servers. Right now though servers in compliance are penalized for obeying the rules. If you report respawnwavetimes correctly you are completely removed from quickplay. Not enforcing the policy ends up validating abuse of the policy. I agree the fake pings, clients, and avatars is a much more grievous violation but both have the same purpose to gain an unjust advantage on rule abiding communities. There is no way you can convince me that major communities who have been delisted for fake clients in the past are not well aware they are willfully violating this policy for a competitive advantage. If there was no advantage they would not bother and take the additional risk. De-list the major violators and send a message. - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:29:18 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn withouttags OK? Yeah I kind of feel like an outright ban for the spawn timing thing is slightly overkill. But, at the same time, this policy has been in place long enough to where you would think there aren't any Admins/Owners who aren't aware of it. That seems to make it more of a foul in my opinion. What I'm really against are the servers who benefit from Quickplay by utilizing Fake Clients that trick the system in to thinking humans are actually playing. SteamIDs, Avatars, Pings, the works. This is the kind of offense that should have a no tolerance policy. Most other settings, I feel, should be fair game (I know it's not that way, and while it isn't, servers should adhere) but I am with Olsen in that the community will dictate what they want to play. I think Valve just doesn't want players to get the wrong idea by joining some server with instant respawns, etc. But does it really matter? They're already being throw in to Saxton Hale servers and the like. I think it's about time to relax those policies and let the community decide what they like to play. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
I agree with that but that is a choice you have to make as an admin. There is a big difference between following the rules and suffering the penalty for making the choice to run a more than 24 player server and disabling the increased_maximum players and respawntimes sv_tags so you can avoid the penalty entirely. The massive pool of violators will affect you more negatively than any penalty for running a large server. Where would you rather play the full 32 player server who is in clear violation of the rules or the empty 32 player server in compliance. No one is going to walk away from populated servers to seek out a compliant server. - Original Message - From: ics i...@ics-base.net To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 5:41:23 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? My point was that the servers running over 32 slots, faking tags and with modified respawn times receive the traffic that normally would go to good behaving over 24 slot server that has a penalty for increased slot count. It's a small part of quickplay traffic but still. After quickplay came in town, it's very hard to have over 24 slot server populated in this part of the world. -ics 1.8.2012 0:36, Todd Pettit kirjoitti: - Original Message - From: ics i...@ics-base.net To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:51:40 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? So in light of what you just implied on 32 slot servers running fast respawn and faking it, i had my own 30 slot servers forcibly turned to 24 slots due to lack of real players. Not alone by the slot count, i also run custom maps on them but partly. There were also a lot of official maps on the cycle byt the penalty was too great and no new players ever got assigned in. So the tags faking(lacking 30-32 slotters get the traffic that was off from me completely. 2 edged sword. Now it kills the servers obeying the rules. -ics The policy states anything misrepresenting the expected gameplay of the server without the appropriate tags is in violation of the policy of truth. If you are faking a 24 player by blocking increased_maxplayers you are in violation and should be delisted. I am not sure what your argument even was. I think fast respawns should be like 32 player servers. It should not remove you from quickplay but should have a penalty. Irregardless if you are still using the plugin to avoid reporting the proper tags so you can avoid being removed from the quickplay pool you should have all your servers de-listed today. No warning. Not Tomorrow. If you are in violation you are in violation. Simple as that. Suffer the consequences. 31.7.2012 23:41, Todd Pettit kirjoitti: I am fine with changing the policy. In fact I wish they would since the vast majority of popular communities are using fast respawn. It is obvious players prefer faster respawns especially on 32 player servers. Right now though servers in compliance are penalized for obeying the rules. If you report respawnwavetimes correctly you are completely removed from quickplay. Not enforcing the policy ends up validating abuse of the policy. I agree the fake pings, clients, and avatars is a much more grievous violation but both have the same purpose to gain an unjust advantage on rule abiding communities. There is no way you can convince me that major communities who have been delisted for fake clients in the past are not well aware they are willfully violating this policy for a competitive advantage. If there was no advantage they would not bother and take the additional risk. De-list the major violators and send a message. - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:29:18 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Yeah I kind of feel like an outright ban for the spawn timing thing is slightly overkill. But, at the same time, this policy has been in place long enough to where you would think there aren't any Admins/Owners who aren't aware of it. That seems to make it more of a foul in my opinion. What I'm really against are the servers who benefit from Quickplay by utilizing Fake Clients that trick the system in to thinking humans are actually playing. SteamIDs, Avatars, Pings, the works. This is the kind of offense that should have a no tolerance policy. Most other settings, I feel, should be fair game (I know it's not that way, and while it isn't, servers should adhere) but I am with Olsen in that the community will dictate what they want to play. I think Valve just doesn't want players
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
LotusClan does nothing of the sort. We are in complete compliance with the Policy of Truth. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Sweet Lord. Lotusclan and Skial are doing it so are Wonkagaming.net and so is Battlegrounds who is coincidentally using fake clients as well and they sure as hell know they are in violation because they have all been de-listed for using fake clients. That right there is 250-300 flagrant violators. You don't think lotus and skial knew what they were doing when they renamed their plugins? Both of them have 8 sec Blue team respawns and no sv_tags. How hard is it to understand if you break the policy you are in violation. It is black and white if you are too lazy to learn scripting and do not check the effects of a plugin you purchase you are still ultimately responsible for your servers. So yes you should be de-listed if it was caught. They do not send you a warning for fake clients. Ignorance is not an excuse if you are incompetent. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). You mean they like servers which manipulate the system to gain a competitive advantage. If you don't know the speed limit does that excuse you from a speeding ticket? NO! - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:46:26 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? I just think people have to be careful in thinking that everything comes down to back white. I'll give you a specific example: A few months ago when I had the fast respawn plugin we use re-written by a Sorucemod coder to insure it added the proper sv_tags, an error was introduced that went unnoticed for almost 6 weeks. For some reason, whatever the coder did (which, I have no idea, I have to pay freelancers to get these things done for me) somehow caused the increased_maxplayers tag to disappear when it added the respawntimes tag, even though my servers were set above 24 slots. Now, that is something I certainly did not intend to do (I didn't even think it was possible, as that's hard-coded into the engine), and I only happened to notice it when checking our servers in the browser one day. Now, as soon as I saw that, I contacted the coder and he found/fixed the error that caused it - but I certainly wasn't trying to game the system, it was an innocent coding error. Should everyone be aware of the rules? Sure - but unless it's something truly intentional and nefarious like the fake clients thing described above, then outright bans of servers is extreme. I agree ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but the last time I checked we didn't put jaywalkers in front of firing squads either. There needs to be a reasonable level of response to these types of things. A written warning with X amount of time to comply (with graduating consequences for non-compliance such as revoking quickplay eligibility, temporary delisting, followed by a perma-ban) is absolutely appropriate and acceptable. Those server operators that are less-tech savvy than others may someday put a plugin on their server that (as the example I noted above) causes unintended non-compliance in one or more areas, without their knowledge. A simple warning to these folks would go a long way towards preserving goodwill in the server community as a whole. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Okay, seriously guys, this list's occupants are great most of the time, but sometimes a thread makes me feel like I'm on the World of Warcraft forums. Speculation is fun and all, but until an official statement comes in, that's all it can be: Speculation. Just please, before posting, think about what's being said and whether it goes against even just common sense. Is it cool that servers cheat and get more players for it? Probably not. Should it be handled? Probably. How should it be handled? Some folks have had really good observations on the thread that maybe the policy or handling needs to be redefined. Will somebody be butt-hurt from handling things? Always. Whether they are hurt from it not being handled or hurt because OMG, U B ME! or because they feel it wasn't handled the way they would have done it, the rear ends will be in pain. People who follow the rules take a penalty from people who don't and can't fill their servers!... Then why are there as many full rule-following servers out there as there are? Perhaps, when cheating takes away a free handout, rather than waiting for somebody else to fix it, figure out how to become like a full non-cheating server. Does not knowing the speed limit excuse you from a speeding ticket? I guess you don't drive much, because yes, it absolutely can. While one shouldn't RELY on it, because it's not an absolute (see that not black and white thing), it's perfectly possible. Although a better example, since the link was shaky at best, would be too big a diameter tire putting 10% speed or so above what the speedometer says. But really, the people who are complaining about the issue right now seem to be more interested in complaining to complain and be annoying than to help find solutions that make sense. So take a step back and think about it before clicking post. If the message sounds like a whiny forum post from WoW forums... It probably won't help you get your way. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
You're making the assumption that because people are here complaining about servers and communities breaking a policy that we have servers dead 24/7. It's just quite annoying having communities outright breaking the policy, getting reported (multiple times) and still nothing is done about it. I know things like spawn timings and all might be a lot more difficult to handle and I'm sure has a ton more violators, but a big community abusing the heck out of fake clients shouldn't be hard to see. Jump on, watch the botty behavior, check status. It shouldn't take months to happen. At least, not in my opinion. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Bull! Since when? This afternoon. What a crock! - Original Message - From: Brian Simon bluebriansi...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:05:31 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? LotusClan does nothing of the sort. We are in complete compliance with the Policy of Truth. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Sweet Lord. Lotusclan and Skial are doing it so are Wonkagaming.net and so is Battlegrounds who is coincidentally using fake clients as well and they sure as hell know they are in violation because they have all been de-listed for using fake clients. That right there is 250-300 flagrant violators. You don't think lotus and skial knew what they were doing when they renamed their plugins? Both of them have 8 sec Blue team respawns and no sv_tags. How hard is it to understand if you break the policy you are in violation. It is black and white if you are too lazy to learn scripting and do not check the effects of a plugin you purchase you are still ultimately responsible for your servers. So yes you should be de-listed if it was caught. They do not send you a warning for fake clients. Ignorance is not an excuse if you are incompetent. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). You mean they like servers which manipulate the system to gain a competitive advantage. If you don't know the speed limit does that excuse you from a speeding ticket? NO! - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:46:26 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? I just think people have to be careful in thinking that everything comes down to back white. I'll give you a specific example: A few months ago when I had the fast respawn plugin we use re-written by a Sorucemod coder to insure it added the proper sv_tags, an error was introduced that went unnoticed for almost 6 weeks. For some reason, whatever the coder did (which, I have no idea, I have to pay freelancers to get these things done for me) somehow caused the increased_maxplayers tag to disappear when it added the respawntimes tag, even though my servers were set above 24 slots. Now, that is something I certainly did not intend to do (I didn't even think it was possible, as that's hard-coded into the engine), and I only happened to notice it when checking our servers in the browser one day. Now, as soon as I saw that, I contacted the coder and he found/fixed the error that caused it - but I certainly wasn't trying to game the system, it was an innocent coding error. Should everyone be aware of the rules? Sure - but unless it's something truly intentional and nefarious like the fake clients thing described above, then outright bans of servers is extreme. I agree ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but the last time I checked we didn't put jaywalkers in front of firing squads either. There needs to be a reasonable level of response to these types of things. A written warning with X amount of time to comply (with graduating consequences for non-compliance such as revoking quickplay eligibility, temporary delisting, followed by a perma-ban) is absolutely appropriate and acceptable. Those server operators that are less-tech savvy than others may someday put a plugin on their server that (as the example I noted above) causes unintended non-compliance in one or more areas, without their knowledge. A simple warning to these folks would go a long way towards preserving goodwill in the server community as a whole. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
I have video recordings from multiple servers of yours showing that over and over 100 percent of the time the Blu and Red respawn times are decreased and always the exact same amount of time. Your tags do reflect any of this. If you are not aware of this you better check your servers because you sure are in violation. I submitted the report to Valve. - Original Message - From: Brian Simon bluebriansi...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:05:31 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? LotusClan does nothing of the sort. We are in complete compliance with the Policy of Truth. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Sweet Lord. Lotusclan and Skial are doing it so are Wonkagaming.net and so is Battlegrounds who is coincidentally using fake clients as well and they sure as hell know they are in violation because they have all been de-listed for using fake clients. That right there is 250-300 flagrant violators. You don't think lotus and skial knew what they were doing when they renamed their plugins? Both of them have 8 sec Blue team respawns and no sv_tags. How hard is it to understand if you break the policy you are in violation. It is black and white if you are too lazy to learn scripting and do not check the effects of a plugin you purchase you are still ultimately responsible for your servers. So yes you should be de-listed if it was caught. They do not send you a warning for fake clients. Ignorance is not an excuse if you are incompetent. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). You mean they like servers which manipulate the system to gain a competitive advantage. If you don't know the speed limit does that excuse you from a speeding ticket? NO! - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:46:26 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? I just think people have to be careful in thinking that everything comes down to back white. I'll give you a specific example: A few months ago when I had the fast respawn plugin we use re-written by a Sorucemod coder to insure it added the proper sv_tags, an error was introduced that went unnoticed for almost 6 weeks. For some reason, whatever the coder did (which, I have no idea, I have to pay freelancers to get these things done for me) somehow caused the increased_maxplayers tag to disappear when it added the respawntimes tag, even though my servers were set above 24 slots. Now, that is something I certainly did not intend to do (I didn't even think it was possible, as that's hard-coded into the engine), and I only happened to notice it when checking our servers in the browser one day. Now, as soon as I saw that, I contacted the coder and he found/fixed the error that caused it - but I certainly wasn't trying to game the system, it was an innocent coding error. Should everyone be aware of the rules? Sure - but unless it's something truly intentional and nefarious like the fake clients thing described above, then outright bans of servers is extreme. I agree ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but the last time I checked we didn't put jaywalkers in front of firing squads either. There needs to be a reasonable level of response to these types of things. A written warning with X amount of time to comply (with graduating consequences for non-compliance such as revoking quickplay eligibility, temporary delisting, followed by a perma-ban) is absolutely appropriate and acceptable. Those server operators that are less-tech savvy than others may someday put a plugin on their server that (as the example I noted above) causes unintended non-compliance in one or more areas, without their knowledge. A simple warning to these folks would go a long way towards preserving goodwill in the server community as a whole. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Skial is fully complaint with the policy of truth. I have to ask whether you are familiar with the fact that a default respawn time can mean faster than 10 second respawns, even for the blue team. http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn_times#Respawn_Waves There are servers out there violating the policy of truth. We are not one of them. And also if you didn't already know, Todd is the owner of Game Liberty, one of the groups caught using fake players after the first ban. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Sweet Lord. Lotusclan and Skial are doing it so are Wonkagaming.net and so is Battlegrounds who is coincidentally using fake clients as well and they sure as hell know they are in violation because they have all been de-listed for using fake clients. That right there is 250-300 flagrant violators. You don't think lotus and skial knew what they were doing when they renamed their plugins? Both of them have 8 sec Blue team respawns and no sv_tags. How hard is it to understand if you break the policy you are in violation. It is black and white if you are too lazy to learn scripting and do not check the effects of a plugin you purchase you are still ultimately responsible for your servers. So yes you should be de-listed if it was caught. They do not send you a warning for fake clients. Ignorance is not an excuse if you are incompetent. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). You mean they like servers which manipulate the system to gain a competitive advantage. If you don't know the speed limit does that excuse you from a speeding ticket? NO! - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:46:26 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? I just think people have to be careful in thinking that everything comes down to back white. I'll give you a specific example: A few months ago when I had the fast respawn plugin we use re-written by a Sorucemod coder to insure it added the proper sv_tags, an error was introduced that went unnoticed for almost 6 weeks. For some reason, whatever the coder did (which, I have no idea, I have to pay freelancers to get these things done for me) somehow caused the increased_maxplayers tag to disappear when it added the respawntimes tag, even though my servers were set above 24 slots. Now, that is something I certainly did not intend to do (I didn't even think it was possible, as that's hard-coded into the engine), and I only happened to notice it when checking our servers in the browser one day. Now, as soon as I saw that, I contacted the coder and he found/fixed the error that caused it - but I certainly wasn't trying to game the system, it was an innocent coding error. Should everyone be aware of the rules? Sure - but unless it's something truly intentional and nefarious like the fake clients thing described above, then outright bans of servers is extreme. I agree ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but the last time I checked we didn't put jaywalkers in front of firing squads either. There needs to be a reasonable level of response to these types of things. A written warning with X amount of time to comply (with graduating consequences for non-compliance such as revoking quickplay eligibility, temporary delisting, followed by a perma-ban) is absolutely appropriate and acceptable. Those server operators that are less-tech savvy than others may someday put a plugin on their server that (as the example I noted above) causes unintended non-compliance in one or more areas, without their knowledge. A simple warning to these folks would go a long way towards preserving goodwill in the server community as a whole. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
it would be pretty snazzy to see fast respawn not penalized as severely as long as the tag was present. Someone a bit earlier back posted a nicely written observance that summarily stated this: If you run a community and pay it attention, have good admins, are an enjoyable personality(s), then players will return. This is true to life and reflects on a community as well. In the end, these communities that put out legitimate effort prevail in the long run and stand the test of time. Enjoy what you have knowing you did right. Character and morality is what you do when no one is looking. In short, don't sweat the ones who circumvent the system. The few players that frequent those servers are a number versus an individual and often times it turns out the majority of the numbers are bots. Their numbers are as fake as are their honest human player count. You would be surprised to know to what extent people go to fake stats of every type in effort to trick folks in to playing. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
I am not the owner of Game Liberty and you are not compliant. I just checked your servers and blu has a 8 second respawn for all ten deaths. You also have been de-listed for fake clients so lets call a spade a spade, ok. Should I list your non-compliant servers. Just cause you renamed the plugin doesn't make you compliant. - Original Message - From: bottige...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:28:56 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Skial is fully complaint with the policy of truth. I have to ask whether you are familiar with the fact that a default respawn time can mean faster than 10 second respawns, even for the blue team. http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn_times#Respawn_Waves There are servers out there violating the policy of truth. We are not one of them. And also if you didn't already know, Todd is the owner of Game Liberty, one of the groups caught using fake players after the first ban. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Sweet Lord. Lotusclan and Skial are doing it so are Wonkagaming.net and so is Battlegrounds who is coincidentally using fake clients as well and they sure as hell know they are in violation because they have all been de-listed for using fake clients. That right there is 250-300 flagrant violators. You don't think lotus and skial knew what they were doing when they renamed their plugins? Both of them have 8 sec Blue team respawns and no sv_tags. How hard is it to understand if you break the policy you are in violation. It is black and white if you are too lazy to learn scripting and do not check the effects of a plugin you purchase you are still ultimately responsible for your servers. So yes you should be de-listed if it was caught. They do not send you a warning for fake clients. Ignorance is not an excuse if you are incompetent. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). You mean they like servers which manipulate the system to gain a competitive advantage. If you don't know the speed limit does that excuse you from a speeding ticket? NO! - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:46:26 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? I just think people have to be careful in thinking that everything comes down to back white. I'll give you a specific example: A few months ago when I had the fast respawn plugin we use re-written by a Sorucemod coder to insure it added the proper sv_tags, an error was introduced that went unnoticed for almost 6 weeks. For some reason, whatever the coder did (which, I have no idea, I have to pay freelancers to get these things done for me) somehow caused the increased_maxplayers tag to disappear when it added the respawntimes tag, even though my servers were set above 24 slots. Now, that is something I certainly did not intend to do (I didn't even think it was possible, as that's hard-coded into the engine), and I only happened to notice it when checking our servers in the browser one day. Now, as soon as I saw that, I contacted the coder and he found/fixed the error that caused it - but I certainly wasn't trying to game the system, it was an innocent coding error. Should everyone be aware of the rules? Sure - but unless it's something truly intentional and nefarious like the fake clients thing described above, then outright bans of servers is extreme. I agree ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but the last time I checked we didn't put jaywalkers in front of firing squads either. There needs to be a reasonable level of response to these types of things. A written warning with X amount of time to comply (with graduating consequences for non-compliance such as revoking quickplay eligibility, temporary delisting, followed by a perma-ban) is absolutely appropriate and acceptable. Those server operators that are less-tech savvy than others may someday put a plugin on their server that (as the example I noted above) causes unintended non-compliance in one or more areas, without their knowledge. A simple warning to these folks would go a long way towards preserving goodwill in the server community as a whole. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Bottiger you lie. Brian Simon you lie too. It does mean that it can be less than 10 seconds sure. But I just took a blu character and died 40x in a row on one of your empty servers and then on Lotus where it should not be less than 10 seconds. Guess what 40x in a row, 8 second respawn. You can lie all you want but is blatantly obvious and you should be delisted. You and lotus both. Neither of you has modified your sv_tags. Stick with the lie just like you did with fake clients and bot pings. Lemme ask the honest server admins here what are the chances of the blu respawn time being 8 seconds 40x in a row? Call out these hacks. - Original Message - From: bottige...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:28:56 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Skial is fully complaint with the policy of truth. I have to ask whether you are familiar with the fact that a default respawn time can mean faster than 10 second respawns, even for the blue team. http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn_times#Respawn_Waves There are servers out there violating the policy of truth. We are not one of them. And also if you didn't already know, Todd is the owner of Game Liberty, one of the groups caught using fake players after the first ban. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Sweet Lord. Lotusclan and Skial are doing it so are Wonkagaming.net and so is Battlegrounds who is coincidentally using fake clients as well and they sure as hell know they are in violation because they have all been de-listed for using fake clients. That right there is 250-300 flagrant violators. You don't think lotus and skial knew what they were doing when they renamed their plugins? Both of them have 8 sec Blue team respawns and no sv_tags. How hard is it to understand if you break the policy you are in violation. It is black and white if you are too lazy to learn scripting and do not check the effects of a plugin you purchase you are still ultimately responsible for your servers. So yes you should be de-listed if it was caught. They do not send you a warning for fake clients. Ignorance is not an excuse if you are incompetent. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). You mean they like servers which manipulate the system to gain a competitive advantage. If you don't know the speed limit does that excuse you from a speeding ticket? NO! - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:46:26 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? I just think people have to be careful in thinking that everything comes down to back white. I'll give you a specific example: A few months ago when I had the fast respawn plugin we use re-written by a Sorucemod coder to insure it added the proper sv_tags, an error was introduced that went unnoticed for almost 6 weeks. For some reason, whatever the coder did (which, I have no idea, I have to pay freelancers to get these things done for me) somehow caused the increased_maxplayers tag to disappear when it added the respawntimes tag, even though my servers were set above 24 slots. Now, that is something I certainly did not intend to do (I didn't even think it was possible, as that's hard-coded into the engine), and I only happened to notice it when checking our servers in the browser one day. Now, as soon as I saw that, I contacted the coder and he found/fixed the error that caused it - but I certainly wasn't trying to game the system, it was an innocent coding error. Should everyone be aware of the rules? Sure - but unless it's something truly intentional and nefarious like the fake clients thing described above, then outright bans of servers is extreme. I agree ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but the last time I checked we didn't put jaywalkers in front of firing squads either. There needs to be a reasonable level of response to these types of things. A written warning with X amount of time to comply (with graduating consequences for non-compliance such as revoking quickplay eligibility, temporary delisting, followed by a perma-ban) is absolutely appropriate and acceptable. Those server operators that are less-tech savvy than others may someday put a plugin on their server that (as the example I noted above) causes unintended non-compliance in one or more areas, without their knowledge. A simple warning to these folks would go a long way towards preserving goodwill in the server community as a whole
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Well, I'm too good to die 40 times in a row, so there would be no way for me to figure out. :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Empty servers don't really count now do they? Especially empty servers with bots. Bots mess with the respawn times due to Valve's buggy code, so we have plugins to fix this. This issue with bots and respawn times has been reported to Valve before and they confirmed that it is a bug, but have not fixed it yet. If you connect to a full server, or at least a server where there are no bots, you'll see that respawn times are default. I'm not sure what you think you're claiming when you say we've been delisted before - we've never been delisted. Fake clients and bot pings are over. When Valve announced the Policy of Truth, we disabled these plugins and they have not been enabled since. If you want to keep making worthless and invalid accusations, go ahead. But know that they are both unfounded and wrong. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Bottiger you lie. Brian Simon you lie too. It does mean that it can be less than 10 seconds sure. But I just took a blu character and died 40x in a row on one of your empty servers and then on Lotus where it should not be less than 10 seconds. Guess what 40x in a row, 8 second respawn. You can lie all you want but is blatantly obvious and you should be delisted. You and lotus both. Neither of you has modified your sv_tags. Stick with the lie just like you did with fake clients and bot pings. Lemme ask the honest server admins here what are the chances of the blu respawn time being 8 seconds 40x in a row? Call out these hacks. - Original Message - From: bottige...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:28:56 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Skial is fully complaint with the policy of truth. I have to ask whether you are familiar with the fact that a default respawn time can mean faster than 10 second respawns, even for the blue team. http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn_times#Respawn_Waves There are servers out there violating the policy of truth. We are not one of them. And also if you didn't already know, Todd is the owner of Game Liberty, one of the groups caught using fake players after the first ban. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Sweet Lord. Lotusclan and Skial are doing it so are Wonkagaming.net and so is Battlegrounds who is coincidentally using fake clients as well and they sure as hell know they are in violation because they have all been de-listed for using fake clients. That right there is 250-300 flagrant violators. You don't think lotus and skial knew what they were doing when they renamed their plugins? Both of them have 8 sec Blue team respawns and no sv_tags. How hard is it to understand if you break the policy you are in violation. It is black and white if you are too lazy to learn scripting and do not check the effects of a plugin you purchase you are still ultimately responsible for your servers. So yes you should be de-listed if it was caught. They do not send you a warning for fake clients. Ignorance is not an excuse if you are incompetent. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). You mean they like servers which manipulate the system to gain a competitive advantage. If you don't know the speed limit does that excuse you from a speeding ticket? NO! - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:46:26 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? I just think people have to be careful in thinking that everything comes down to back white. I'll give you a specific example: A few months ago when I had the fast respawn plugin we use re-written by a Sorucemod coder to insure it added the proper sv_tags, an error was introduced that went unnoticed for almost 6 weeks. For some reason, whatever the coder did (which, I have no idea, I have to pay freelancers to get these things done for me) somehow caused the increased_maxplayers tag to disappear when it added the respawntimes tag, even though my servers were set above 24 slots. Now, that is something I certainly did not intend to do (I didn't even think it was possible, as that's hard-coded into the engine), and I only happened to notice it when checking our servers in the browser one day. Now, as soon as I saw that, I contacted the coder and he found/fixed the error that caused it - but I certainly wasn't trying to game the system, it was an innocent coding error. Should everyone be aware of the rules? Sure - but unless it's something truly
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
The mailing list isn't the place for petty fights between your communities, please take it elsewhere. On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 12:50 AM, Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I'm too good to die 40 times in a row, so there would be no way for me to figure out. :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Oh so after the policy was announced and all your servers disappeared you were on vacation? Who do you think you are fooling. - Original Message - From: Brian Simon bluebriansi...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:10:10 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Empty servers don't really count now do they? Especially empty servers with bots. Bots mess with the respawn times due to Valve's buggy code, so we have plugins to fix this. This issue with bots and respawn times has been reported to Valve before and they confirmed that it is a bug, but have not fixed it yet. If you connect to a full server, or at least a server where there are no bots, you'll see that respawn times are default. I'm not sure what you think you're claiming when you say we've been delisted before - we've never been delisted. Fake clients and bot pings are over. When Valve announced the Policy of Truth, we disabled these plugins and they have not been enabled since. If you want to keep making worthless and invalid accusations, go ahead. But know that they are both unfounded and wrong. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Bottiger you lie. Brian Simon you lie too. It does mean that it can be less than 10 seconds sure. But I just took a blu character and died 40x in a row on one of your empty servers and then on Lotus where it should not be less than 10 seconds. Guess what 40x in a row, 8 second respawn. You can lie all you want but is blatantly obvious and you should be delisted. You and lotus both. Neither of you has modified your sv_tags. Stick with the lie just like you did with fake clients and bot pings. Lemme ask the honest server admins here what are the chances of the blu respawn time being 8 seconds 40x in a row? Call out these hacks. - Original Message - From: bottige...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:28:56 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Skial is fully complaint with the policy of truth. I have to ask whether you are familiar with the fact that a default respawn time can mean faster than 10 second respawns, even for the blue team. http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn_times#Respawn_Waves There are servers out there violating the policy of truth. We are not one of them. And also if you didn't already know, Todd is the owner of Game Liberty, one of the groups caught using fake players after the first ban. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Sweet Lord. Lotusclan and Skial are doing it so are Wonkagaming.net and so is Battlegrounds who is coincidentally using fake clients as well and they sure as hell know they are in violation because they have all been de-listed for using fake clients. That right there is 250-300 flagrant violators. You don't think lotus and skial knew what they were doing when they renamed their plugins? Both of them have 8 sec Blue team respawns and no sv_tags. How hard is it to understand if you break the policy you are in violation. It is black and white if you are too lazy to learn scripting and do not check the effects of a plugin you purchase you are still ultimately responsible for your servers. So yes you should be de-listed if it was caught. They do not send you a warning for fake clients. Ignorance is not an excuse if you are incompetent. Luckily - cooler heads usually prevail with the TF2 team, and they have the added benefit of seeing the big picture (and all the underlying player-data that denotes which servers players like). You mean they like servers which manipulate the system to gain a competitive advantage. If you don't know the speed limit does that excuse you from a speeding ticket? NO! - Original Message - From: E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:46:26 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? I just think people have to be careful in thinking that everything comes down to back white. I'll give you a specific example: A few months ago when I had the fast respawn plugin we use re-written by a Sorucemod coder to insure it added the proper sv_tags, an error was introduced that went unnoticed for almost 6 weeks. For some reason, whatever the coder did (which, I have no idea, I have to pay freelancers to get these things done for me) somehow caused the increased_maxplayers tag to disappear when it added the respawntimes tag, even though my servers were set above 24 slots. Now, that is something I certainly did
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Should probably stop. This thread has a lot of valid complaints and some good thoughts. Let's not ruin it completely. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Ok, I might be way off base here that wiki he posted says the max time on Goldrush for blue should be 8 seconds. I am getting 16-18 seconds. I know my respawntimes are default. Am I missing something? - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:15:17 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Should probably stop. This thread has a lot of valid complaints and some good thoughts. Let's not ruin it completely. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
You probably have bots. As I said, bots mess with the spawn times. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, I might be way off base here that wiki he posted says the max time on Goldrush for blue should be 8 seconds. I am getting 16-18 seconds. I know my respawntimes are default. Am I missing something? - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:15:17 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Should probably stop. This thread has a lot of valid complaints and some good thoughts. Let's not ruin it completely. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
If you can point me to where this is cited and a fix I will gladly apologize. I am getting respawntimes on Goldrush on blue between 14-18 seconds. - Original Message - From: Brian Simon bluebriansi...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:24:54 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? You probably have bots. As I said, bots mess with the spawn times. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, I might be way off base here that wiki he posted says the max time on Goldrush for blue should be 8 seconds. I am getting 16-18 seconds. I know my respawntimes are default. Am I missing something? - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:15:17 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Should probably stop. This thread has a lot of valid complaints and some good thoughts. Let's not ruin it completely. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Disable bots. Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:40:26 -0400 From: pettit.t...@gmail.com To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? If you can point me to where this is cited and a fix I will gladly apologize. I am getting respawntimes on Goldrush on blue between 14-18 seconds. - Original Message - From: Brian Simon bluebriansi...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:24:54 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? You probably have bots. As I said, bots mess with the spawn times. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, I might be way off base here that wiki he posted says the max time on Goldrush for blue should be 8 seconds. I am getting 16-18 seconds. I know my respawntimes are default. Am I missing something? - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:15:17 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Should probably stop. This thread has a lot of valid complaints and some good thoughts. Let's not ruin it completely. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Thats not my point. Lotus and Skial both use bots and if there is a bug causing elevated respawn times there should be a documented fix or at least reports of the issue. - Original Message - From: Jay Singh singh...@live.com To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:41:38 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Disable bots. Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:40:26 -0400 From: pettit.t...@gmail.com To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? If you can point me to where this is cited and a fix I will gladly apologize. I am getting respawntimes on Goldrush on blue between 14-18 seconds. - Original Message - From: Brian Simon bluebriansi...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:24:54 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? You probably have bots. As I said, bots mess with the spawn times. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, I might be way off base here that wiki he posted says the max time on Goldrush for blue should be 8 seconds. I am getting 16-18 seconds. I know my respawntimes are default. Am I missing something? - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:15:17 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Should probably stop. This thread has a lot of valid complaints and some good thoughts. Let's not ruin it completely. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
There are reports of it. I think I googled it some time ago and it's been a bug for a few years now. It happens if you set the bots to join the server without humans. Let me see if I can find it. http://forum.i3d.net/hlds-valve-windows-newsletter/153873-hlds-bug-bots-attack-defense-respawn-times.html Back from 2010. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
No that is not the point. There has been multiple reports about it on the mailing list back several years with no fix from Valve because they do not deem it important enough to fix. Our servers are not affected because we have a private fix that we spent many hours figuring out, not because we are using a respawn plugin. I think you should realize by now why Valve doesn't pay attention to your reports when you don't even know what the proper respawn times on Goldrush are. Anyone can open up a listen server on Goldrush and see that you can get the same respawn on blue 20 times in a row. You aren't the owner of Game Liberty? Just the owner of the group, the website, and the only person posting announcements related to server administration. http://steamcommunity.com/groups/gameliberty http://steamcommunity.com/groups/gameliberty/announcements http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197969041621 http://imgur.com/a/qygqP List whatever servers you wrongfully think are non-complaint, post every IP on the mailing list for everyone here to check. We are not worried because we know we are fully compliant. It is understandable you are mad about being punished for using fake players. But if you are desperately finding someone to blame for your empty servers, get your facts straight. All you have done is discredit yourself and distract everyone from the communities that are actually hiding instant respawn. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Thats not my point. Lotus and Skial both use bots and if there is a bug causing elevated respawn times there should be a documented fix or at least reports of the issue. - Original Message - From: Jay Singh singh...@live.com To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:41:38 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Disable bots. Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:40:26 -0400 From: pettit.t...@gmail.com To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? If you can point me to where this is cited and a fix I will gladly apologize. I am getting respawntimes on Goldrush on blue between 14-18 seconds. - Original Message - From: Brian Simon bluebriansi...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:24:54 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? You probably have bots. As I said, bots mess with the spawn times. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, I might be way off base here that wiki he posted says the max time on Goldrush for blue should be 8 seconds. I am getting 16-18 seconds. I know my respawntimes are default. Am I missing something? - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:15:17 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Should probably stop. This thread has a lot of valid complaints and some good thoughts. Let's not ruin it completely. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Bottiger, I apologize I was not aware of this bug and I am looking into it now. I am getting respawn times between 14-18 seconds on blue. I will test this out. I already sent a message to Fletcher Dunn as well with an apology as well. I also apologize to Brian from Lotus as well. I was way out of line and I thought I did my homework but I obviously didn't. I am however not the owner of gameliberty. I am not peanut butter. I live in Hermosa Beach CA... I only have a handful of servers so far. I am not mad because I got banned I was mad because I have 3x longer respawns than you do. I sincerely apologize and I should of contacted you about the issue first. - Original Message - From: bottige...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:03:12 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? No that is not the point. There has been multiple reports about it on the mailing list back several years with no fix from Valve because they do not deem it important enough to fix. Our servers are not affected because we have a private fix that we spent many hours figuring out, not because we are using a respawn plugin. I think you should realize by now why Valve doesn't pay attention to your reports when you don't even know what the proper respawn times on Goldrush are. Anyone can open up a listen server on Goldrush and see that you can get the same respawn on blue 20 times in a row. You aren't the owner of Game Liberty? Just the owner of the group, the website, and the only person posting announcements related to server administration. http://steamcommunity.com/groups/gameliberty http://steamcommunity.com/groups/gameliberty/announcements http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197969041621 http://imgur.com/a/qygqP List whatever servers you wrongfully think are non-complaint, post every IP on the mailing list for everyone here to check. We are not worried because we know we are fully compliant. It is understandable you are mad about being punished for using fake players. But if you are desperately finding someone to blame for your empty servers, get your facts straight. All you have done is discredit yourself and distract everyone from the communities that are actually hiding instant respawn. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Thats not my point. Lotus and Skial both use bots and if there is a bug causing elevated respawn times there should be a documented fix or at least reports of the issue. - Original Message - From: Jay Singh singh...@live.com To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:41:38 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Disable bots. Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:40:26 -0400 From: pettit.t...@gmail.com To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? If you can point me to where this is cited and a fix I will gladly apologize. I am getting respawntimes on Goldrush on blue between 14-18 seconds. - Original Message - From: Brian Simon bluebriansi...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:24:54 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? You probably have bots. As I said, bots mess with the spawn times. On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Todd Pettit pettit.t...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, I might be way off base here that wiki he posted says the max time on Goldrush for blue should be 8 seconds. I am getting 16-18 seconds. I know my respawntimes are default. Am I missing something? - Original Message - From: Essay Tew Phaun sc2p...@gmail.com To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:15:17 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK? Should probably stop. This thread has a lot of valid complaints and some good thoughts. Let's not ruin it completely. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Lotus and Skial both run clean servers. I can personally vouch for Lotus as I not long ago played there all the time. Some other communities though, on the other hand.. Let's just hope Fletcher and Co do something about the reports I and others have made sooner rather than later. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Policy of Truth Still in effect? Fast Respawn without tags OK?
Okay let me get this straight. It's okay to use fake clients as long as you aren't using them as hard as the other guy. It's okay to not use proper tags on your server as long as you aren't lying too much. It's okay to bend the rules just because, like, Valve isn't fair and they should make it easier to run your crappy server and they shouldn't make players not direct there and it's their fault I'm cheating the system! Blame them not me! They're the problem! It's *my* server I should be allowed to do *WHATEVER I WANT* with it! What's next, allowing VACed players to play on VAC secure plugins? Oh wait that's already a thing. What a dark time to be running a srcds server. I was reading an interview with Gabe where he said, when someone at Valve complains about something not working right, they get told to fix the problem. “Okay, fix it.” You just say, “I don’t know what you expect to happen now, but you’ve just given yourself a job.” Fries: Does that train them to complain less or to fix things more? Newell: If you hired the right person, it trains them to fix stuff. So, no wonder these problems never get resolved. No wonder Source never gets patched. Nobody wants to get stuck with fixing the problem so nobody brings it up. I kind of can't blame them for wanting to fix anything though. When the game is making you a shitzillion dollars annually, why tip the balance? Also, irregardless? Wow. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
