The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I'm certainly not at a level of knowledge of z/OS that I would like to be. I'm often in awe at how much people on this and other lists know. I like though that there is still a lot of cool stuff to learn. I started with IBM mainframes in 1982 when I was at the university. I was a music major and I wanted to learn about computers. They had a smaller room with the micro computers in that was kept locked and you had to be a CS major or have special permission to use those. Next to it though (this was in the data center building) was a bigger open room with IBM 3270 and DEC terminals and a bunch of documentation. (There was also an adjacent room with a machine they called a Widget and was used by CS 101 students. No idea what that was, but I think something by IBM.) I got an account on an IBM 4341 running VM/CMS. I still remember my userid: MULINDY. I didn't know how to program. I managed to teach myself a bit of Waterloo Basic but I couldn't do much. I was so intrigued by these machines that I would stay there all night long just hacking at the OS, learning to write Execs, and so on. I never got to take any CS classes. I belong now to a couple of Yahoo Groups which is made up of mostly people new to z/OS, and I help out and answer questions when I can. If I'm not mistaken, by the names, most of the people are from India. It is not uncommon to see posts like this: quote Hi, I have been developing applications for zOS using the USS for some time. Now, I want to learn more about the zOS. Can somebody give me tips where to start learning zOS, TSO, ISPF, SDSF, etc? Soon we will be getting a dedicated development environment from IBM, where I will have to operate everything myself. Thanks for the replies. /quote (No idea how to answer that. Steve you want to open a branch office in India?) I absolutely do not want to bring up the pros cons of outsourcing. The fact is, though, places like India are getting a lot of mainframe work. And indeed there are a lot of areas in the world where mainframes still have a chance to take hold. I'm thinking China may be a big up-and-coming market (but I've no facts to back that up). One point I'm making is that it took me years and a lot of difficult study to grow to my current level. Yet there are many people now being handed an MVS job to do and told to get to it. Do others see this as a challenge? That mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them? And how do you learn what you need to know - things that normally take experience and time - so quickly? Perhaps Steve if he reads this has some answers. I for one am very happy to see so many new (and young) people interested in working with IBM mainframes. Having survived the Microsoft Wars I'm happy our side didn't lose. Remember things like in 1991 when Stewart Alsop wrote, I predict that the last mainframe will be unplugged on 15 March 1996. (If centralization by virtualization continues to be a better way to go, then people will realize that there are better OS's than MS for this and make the natural switch to Unix and mainframe servers. I predict that the last MS server will be unplugged by 2025.) (-: On a good note, you can't stop people from learning z/OS no matter how hard you try (IBM). z/OS 1.6 ADCD (I've read) is available to download on some of the bittorrent networks. (Well, for all I know IBM actually put them out there, and if so, smart move.) Kind regards, Lindy -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
(There was also an adjacent room with a machine they called a Widget and was used by CS 101 students. No idea what that was, but I think something by IBM.) WIDJET. Waterloo Interactive Debug and Job Entry Terminal. Written by the University of Waterloo. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 12:40 +0200, Lindy Mayfield wrote: One point I'm making is that it took me years and a lot of difficult study to grow to my current level. Yet there are many people now being handed an MVS job to do and told to get to it. Do others see this as a challenge? No, I see it as an abrogation of corporate governance. Customers that once demanded 5 nines (or better) of their IT department(s) now accept anything that reduces their bottom line. I am now less inclined to perpetuate the misdemeanour by answering newbie questions on public fora. z/OS 1.6 ADCD (I've read) is available to download on some of the bittorrent networks. If it is, some-one has put their gonads on the chopping block. IBMs licensing requirements tend to be very specific. And not at all magnanimous. Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
A PDP-11! Wow, if I only knew then... -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: 8. syyskuuta 2007 14:35 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] (There was also an adjacent room with a machine they called a Widget and was used by CS 101 students. No idea what that was, but I think something by IBM.) WIDJET. Waterloo Interactive Debug and Job Entry Terminal. Written by the University of Waterloo. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: System Trace Table
I forgot to add that we are running 2 processors so it appears that total storage would really be around 2M. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Lindy Mayfield wrote: [snip] I belong now to a couple of Yahoo Groups which is made up of mostly people new to z/OS, and I help out and answer questions when I can. If I'm not mistaken, by the names, most of the people are from India. It is not uncommon to see posts like this: quote Hi, I have been developing applications for zOS using the USS for some time. Now, I want to learn more about the zOS. Can somebody give me tips where to start learning zOS, TSO, ISPF, SDSF, etc? Soon we will be getting a dedicated development environment from IBM, where I will have to operate everything myself. Thanks for the replies. /quote I've started a folder I call pathetic_outsourcing_questions, all come from the MVSQuest Yahoo group, and they are all from India, people seeking free information with no idea how to go about it. Here's some samples: --- Hello Guru's, Could any 1 tell me in DB2 V7 S/390 : Q.) How to Extract data from SYSIBM.SYSLGRNX Q) What is exact use of DSN.BSDS files Q) How to Read Active Log of DB2. Thanks Teja --- Hi folks, This is Nandha, i need mainframe server to practice from home.Becuase i am doing mainframe course and i need to practice a lot. Pl anyone help me. Regards, Nnadhakumar --- Hi Grp, I am learning REXX i want a material which is right from scrath...till depth..including panels... Please dont send me an links..because i cant access net in my Project. Awaiting for the reply. Thanks in advance. Archana Reddy Chundi Tata Consultancy Services Limited Mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.tcs.com --- Hi Guys, Is Anyone has Learning Material on Coolgen Please send it It will be of great help Thanks And Regards Rajesh --- Hi, Can anyone please send me some materials on PLI. Thanks regards, sairathi. --- Hi all I am preparing for DB2 family fundamental Exam(700) . Please send me previous question paper and related material . So that i can easily clear the exam . Please send , i will be thankful to you . Regards Suprakash Mohapatra --- Hi, Could any please elobertae about LOW VALUES and HIGH VALUES. EG: MOVE LOW-VALUES TO INREC MOVE HIGH-VALUES TO OUTREC and what is the difference b/w the Record Formats V and VB. Thanks --- etc. (No idea how to answer that. Steve you want to open a branch office in India?) Thought about it. A few years ago I visited Hursley, England, and spoke with the IBM'er in charge of training for Asia. He told me that ed centers there generally charge $25 per student day and make a profit. I can't afford to work that cheap, I'm afraid. I absolutely do not want to bring up the pros cons of outsourcing. The fact is, though, places like India are getting a lot of mainframe work. And indeed there are a lot of areas in the world where mainframes still have a chance to take hold. I'm thinking China may be a big up-and-coming market (but I've no facts to back that up). A colleague of mine is constantly on the road to China; but he is teaching .NET type things to GE employees there; no mainframe. Still, it is going to be a center that includes mainframe work. [snip] Do others see this as a challenge? That mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them? And how do you learn what you need to know - things that normally take experience and time - so quickly? Perhaps Steve if he reads this has some answers. Wish it were so. I'm still running into the mindset of most medium to large companies getting off the mainframe (whether they actually accomplish that varies). The largest companies are committed to mainframes, so far. But as far as training, most organizations have dropped that priority way down the list; they expect employees to train themselves or find training on their own. Note: there are some exceptions, where training is still valued; just found one and I'm not giving out the name; we'll see. I for one am very happy to see so many new (and young) people interested in working with IBM mainframes. Having survived the Microsoft Wars I'm happy our side didn't lose. Well, we weren't wiped out. The war is not over. Remember things like in 1991 when Stewart Alsop wrote, I predict that the last mainframe will be unplugged on 15 March 1996. (If centralization by virtualization continues to be a better way to go, then people will realize that there are better OS's than MS for this and make the natural switch to Unix and mainframe servers. I predict that the last MS server will be unplugged by 2025.) (-: On a good note, you can't stop people from learning z/OS no matter how hard you try (IBM). z/OS 1.6 ADCD (I've read) is available to download on some of the bittorrent networks. (Well, for all I know IBM actually put them out there, and if so, smart move.) I agree with Shane on this: IBM did not do this in any authorized way and someone is at big legal risk for that. Kind regards, Lindy -- Kind regards, -Steve
Re: COMMAND SHELL PROGRAMMING.
Wow is that bad. All these variables with no indication of how one would set them. The first comment claims to get user's input but never prompts for anyhing. Another comment claims to delete the script file but only empties it. And it only handles one file. Long ago I read :REM is quicker then REM. The DOS variables would allow a user to pass in everything you need. You do not need to specify USER unless your host does not require you to signon. And if you do not need to signon, why are you? But thanks for showing the reversed redirection method. Until now I have always used: Echo some text here outputfile.txt On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:21:33 +0530, Yogesh Mahajan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This could be done by REXX/ CList. But if you wish to do write FTP script on client receiving the file, you may write a DOS shell script (.bat) like this: == === REM Get user's input - Mainframe IP, FTP ID, Pwd etc... REM Create downloading script, execute it (ftp) and delete it. REM SET strMember='%strInputFileNameFromUser%' script.ftp ECHO USER %strUser% script.ftp ECHO %strPwd% script.ftp ECHO prompt n echo Downloading the file: %strMember% TO %strSProc% script.ftp ECHO get %strMember% %strSProc% script.ftp ECHO bye ftp -n -s:script.ftp %strMainframe% TYPE NUL script.ftp NOTEPAD %strSProc% -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Control Program of OS/360 reel tape
I am willing to try. On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 06:11:02 -0500, Michael Stack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:26 PM 9/6/2007, you wrote: On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:04:35 -0500, Michael Stack wrote: I had the 16mm film copied to videotape before I retired from NIU in 1999, then I digitized it to DVD for SHARE's 50th anniversary. I gave copies to a few people, and if someone has a few gigabytes (and bandwidth) of server space, I'll be glad to make an ISO file available. Michael Stack -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: SGML DTD for Bookmaster
What does that mean? Do you want to know which manual describes the Bookmaster tags? Do you think they released the libraries you include when executing Document Composition Facility (a.k.a. SCRIPT) to the public? On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:06:36 -0400, David Boyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know whether IBM ever published a SGML DTD for Bookmaster? Ideas? Does anyone know who I might ask? -- db -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Maybe we should not answer those questions. The outsourced work went to a place where lower wages are paid. If they can not perform the work, things will fail any maybe get insourced. Or sourced to a competent firm. By answering the question you are now a free resource to the outsourcer. Refer them to the manual and let them read. On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 06:50:28 -0600, Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lindy Mayfield wrote: [snip] I belong now to a couple of Yahoo Groups which is made up of mostly people new to z/OS, and I help out and answer questions when I can. If I'm not mistaken, by the names, most of the people are from India. It is not uncommon to see posts like this: quote Hi, I have been developing applications for zOS using the USS for some time. Now, I want to learn more about the zOS. Can somebody give me tips where to start learning zOS, TSO, ISPF, SDSF, etc? Soon we will be getting a dedicated development environment from IBM, where I will have to operate everything myself. Thanks for the replies. /quote I've started a folder I call pathetic_outsourcing_questions, all come from the MVSQuest Yahoo group, and they are all from India, people seeking free information with no idea how to go about it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: System Trace Table
Go for it George 2M of real storage in @ LPAR and this can really save you a recreate for a sticky problem. We have been setup this way for a while no problems. Currently on 1.8 and looking forward to being able to specify more than 1M @ CP in z/OS 1.9. COM='TRACE ST,999K,BR=OFF IBM DEFAULT AFTER OA07896 IS 256K ' Best Regards, Sam Knutson, GEICO System z Performance and Availability Management mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (office) 301.986.3574 Excellent firms don't believe in excellence Only in constant improvement and constant change. Tom Peters -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Dranes Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:54 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: System Trace Table I've been following the System Trace Table discussions and it sounds like I should probably be setting the table to 999K. We're currently at z/OS 1.8 so 999K seems to be the limit. Are there any issues I should be considering before I put TRACE ST,999K in my COMMNDxx member? Thanks for any help. This email/fax message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution of this email/fax is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy all paper and electronic copies of the original message. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I see what you (and Shane) are saying. I don't answer the really bad questions (like Steve has collected). Then again I put myself in their shoes, people just trying to do a job who are not involved in the politics of it all. It's hard not to feel for them on a human level and not want to help. I see both sides. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenneth E Tomiak Sent: 8. syyskuuta 2007 18:15 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Maybe we should not answer those questions. The outsourced work went to a place where lower wages are paid. If they can not perform the work, things will fail any maybe get insourced. Or sourced to a competent firm. By answering the question you are now a free resource to the outsourcer. Refer them to the manual and let them read. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On 8 Sep 2007 03:40:56 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lindy Mayfield) wrote: One point I'm making is that it took me years and a lot of difficult study to grow to my current level. Yet there are many people now being handed an MVS job to do and told to get to it. Do others see this as a challenge? That mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them? And how do you learn what you need to know - things that normally take experience and time - so quickly? I believe, as I always have, that the only way towards expertise in mainframes is via mentoring. A junior sysprog needs to apprentice to a senior sysprog. Any shop, regardless of location, which is not willing to pay for the senior sysprog to learn from is doomed to be substandard. There are plenty of mainframe professionals for newbies to learn from, but the companies that hire only newbies don't want to pay for that experience. I have nothing against newbies who want to learn. In fact, I love to teach. However, I am not willing to help a *company* that refuses to hire the expertise they need, again regardless of location. I see those companies as the root of the problem. So, I don't believe that mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them. I believe that they are spreading faster than people are being *allowed* to learn them, and that it is an economic problem rather than a physical one. -- I cannot receive mail at the address this was sent from. To reply directly, send to ar23hur at intergate dot com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: General nature of moving work to outsiders was Re: Outsourcing
And just how are we all to figure out what offends your sentiments? Sorry, and with all due respect, open dialog requires that some people get insulted by a post. Oh well... I think it is far more important to keep the flow of opinions and ideas going. And if some one is insulted, oh well... Doug At 09:11 PM 9/7/2007, you wrote: On 31 Aug 2007 23:18:08 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: With due respect to all the fellow listers, I would like to request everybody on the list to kindly avoid any comments that directly or indirectly hurt anybody's sentiments. I have felt, that some of the comments (recently) were not intentional, but may just have been a result of the outsourcing and the resulting job-cuts in US and other countries. I am working for a company in India, and I must say that it gives us no pleasure to know the fact that a lot of us have got our jobs at the expense of some other folks around the world. All of us know that these are not employee decisions but the company's higher management snip Doug Fuerst Consultant BK Associates Brooklyn, NY (718) 921-2620 (Office) (718) 921-0952 (Fax) (917) 572-7364 (Cell) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
That is a side of things that I hadn't considered. Thanks for pointing it out. Interesting, the company that I work for would basically send me to any training I would like to take (within reason, of course), but I rarely take advantage of it, preferring to just get a book and learn on my own. But me, I'm just a geek and if I help anyone out it's person to person. At the level I'm at I don't even consider the politics of the situation. I'm glad, too. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Arthur T. Sent: 8. syyskuuta 2007 19:42 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] I have nothing against newbies who want to learn. In fact, I love to teach. However, I am not willing to help a *company* that refuses to hire the expertise they need, again regardless of location. I see those companies as the root of the problem. So, I don't believe that mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them. I believe that they are spreading faster than people are being *allowed* to learn them, and that it is an economic problem rather than a physical one. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is TCBECB supposed to be zero at end of task?
On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:40:18 -0500 Vic Petrone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: :I have a main program that attaches a subtask. The main program specifies :both ECB= and EXTR= on the ATTACHX macro. The ECB pointed by ECB=, :resides ***within*** a subtask context area allocated by the main program. :When the subtask terminates, the ETXR routine receives control with the :address of the terminating TCB in R1. The ETXR attempts to use the address :in the TCBECB field to calculate the base address of the subtask context area. :Unfortunately the address in TCBECB is zeros and the ETXR routine abends :S0C4. :From within the executing subtask, I have verified that the TCBECB field does :point back to the ECB within the context area. :Can anyone please verify that the TCBECB field is supposed to be zeros upon :entry to the ETXR? Or am I missing something? If you specify ECB=, the control program posts the ECB. No need for the ETXR to do it. If you need to coordinate the ETXR with the maintask use a different ECB. By the time the ETXR gets control, a lot of the TCB has been cleaned up. -- Binyamin Dissen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dissensoftware.com Director, Dissen Software, Bar Grill - Israel Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me, you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain. I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems, especially those from irresponsible companies. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Ed, Then he could add an irritating and stupid filter as well... Ron Steve has the right idea maybe it should be carried one step further. Just as an idea, how about if the list owner can insert some identifier to the email so that we can filter on say raw recruit in the subject line. The owner of the list can maintain a list of email address's that have sent in such messages. Just a possibility or maybe someone else can suggest another way. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I have nothing against newbies who want to learn. In fact, I love to teach. However, I am not willing to help a *company* that refuses to hire the expertise they need, again regardless of location. I see those companies as the root of the problem. This whole thread borders on the ridiculous. Any question that is answered can be construed as helping regardless of whether one likes the organization involved or not. Similarly, it is preposterous to suggest that an answered question from this forum suddenly conveys expertise. There is nothing that can be provided here that isn't already provided in numerous sources, so the notion that this is a unique source of information is ludicrous. While answering a question may shorten the path an individual needs to pursue in obtaining answer, it is certainly no replacement for the years of experience necessary to obtain any degree of expertise. There will always be a conflict when someone loses their job to someone else, and I, for one, refuse to take sides in the matter. A company that doesn't want to pay for expertise will either learn the hard way, or discover that it doesn't need the expertise. I have seen far too many marginal individuals protected simply by a long employment history. After all, I still remember a day when all contractors and outsourcers were considered evil since they threatened someone's job. Now, the focus is easier for some to rationalize since it often involves off-shoring as well. While there are certainly many problems associated with the use of cheap labor and H1B visa's, etc. the issue of answering questions certainly isn't one of them. The simple truth is that, given today's larger systems, consolidation is a realistic option and generally involves fewer people to maintain and support. If the objective is to retain a stable 9-5 workday job, then get over it, because it won't last. Most companies don't require on-site expertise on a continuous basis, so anyone with real experience, will need to leverage it by being prepared to share this knowledge with multiple organizations. In short ... don't count on retiring from the company you're working for as a systems programmer unless you're working for a vendor. So, I don't believe that mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them. I believe that they are spreading faster than people are being *allowed* to learn them, and that it is an economic problem rather than a physical one. As for being allowed to learn ... There has NEVER been more information available, nor more readily available than today. There is absolutely no excuse for anyone that wants to learn to suggest that they are being denied access to information. Implicit in this statement is the assumption that education is the company's responsiblity. If we are professionals then education is OUR responsibility. While it is a tremendous benefit when a company elects to pay for such education, it is by no means our right to have it at someone else's expense. A company is not responsible for enhancing our careers. If it is cheaper to educate staff rather than bring in outside expertise, then it is likely that course of action may be taken. While a classroom might be easier, and a mentor can certainly be beneficial, the suggestion of not being allowed is simply over the top. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Maybe we should not answer those questions. I suggested that a long time ago, and was run through the wringer because of it. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I agree about the amount of information available these days. It's unbelievable. When I started out an IBM manual was worth its weight in gold almost. Now the problem is wading through all the information. It can be overwhelming. Also experience (someone mentioned a mentor) is hard to find in books. To tap into others experience is why I come here. Oh and entertainment, too. And of course camaraderie, can't forget that. (-: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gerhard Adam Sent: 8. syyskuuta 2007 21:50 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] There is nothing that can be provided here that isn't already provided in numerous sources, so the notion that this is a unique source of information is ludicrous. While answering a question may shorten the path an individual needs to pursue in obtaining answer, it is certainly no replacement for the years of experience necessary to obtain any degree of expertise. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
When I started out an IBM manual was worth its weight in gold almost. Now the problem is wading through all the information. It can be overwhelming. Also experience (someone mentioned a mentor) is hard to find in books. I agree that a mentor can be a tremendous asset, however let's not overlook one other key element. You mentioned how valuable an IBM manual was in the old days, but consider that in most environments today, the system programmer has access to a sandbox system virtually 24 hours a day, both at work and at home. In the old days, the opportunity to TEST or try something out required an inordinate amount of finesse to carve out a small chunk of time. In truth, like the manuals, there has never been a higher availablility of access to test configurations than exists today, yet the majority of people i've run into rarely exploit these opportunities. Mentor or not, the majority of a system programmer's education will come from hands on, and we have significant unexploited opportunities there. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On 8 Sep 2007 11:50:26 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerhard Adam) wrote: As for being allowed to learn ... There has NEVER been more information available, nor more readily available than today. There is absolutely no excuse for anyone that wants to learn to suggest that they are being denied access to information. Implicit in this statement is the assumption that education is the company's responsiblity. If we are professionals then education is OUR responsibility. While it is a tremendous benefit when a company elects to pay for such education, it is by no means our right to have it at someone else's expense. A company is not responsible for enhancing our careers. If it is cheaper to educate staff rather than bring in outside expertise, then it is likely that course of action may be taken. While a classroom might be easier, and a mentor can certainly be beneficial, the suggestion of not being allowed is simply over the top. Your reply to my last two paragraphs significantly skews my position. Please reread my first paragraph: I believe, as I always have, that the only way towards expertise in mainframes is via mentoring. A junior sysprog needs to apprentice to a senior sysprog. I am not talking about reading, lurking or questioning online, or even classes. There are many things that can be learned from people, but that can't be taught. Constant exposure to a good senior sysprog will leave a good junior sysprog with ideas, attitudes, and competences that are not likely to arise any other way within a reasonable number of years. That is the kind of education that is the responsibility of the companies; it's almost impossible for an individual to obtain. Online, telephone, classes, and two Shares a year cannot replace it. It's the knowledge of when stay calm and when to go into a frenzy of problem determination or amelioration. It's having available that large memory of things that went wrong, without having to find them all the hard way. It's learning by example what knowledge it's important to memorize versus that which should be looked up. It's many other things, most of which I'll never be able to explain verbally, which is part of my point. A company that doesn't want to pay for expertise will either learn the hard way, or discover that it doesn't need the expertise. Any mainframe company without sufficient expertise is bad for all of us. Mainframes already get bad press. Any business failure directly relating to the mainframe will be even worse. I don't want companies to die because they did things wrong; I want them to live because they do things right. The elementary level of some of the questions showing up here and elsewhere show that they do need that expertise. A well-run company can't pause for Usenet responses *every time* something new comes up, even if it can, sometimes. I will continue to lurk, and to answer questions that both intrigue me and that I may know the answers to. And, obviously, to occasionally spout on-topic opinions. -- I cannot receive mail at the address this was sent from. To reply directly, send to ar23hur at intergate dot com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Your reply to my last two paragraphs significantly skews my position. My comments weren't specifically directed to your statements, but rather to the general sense that seems to permeate this thread. That is the kind of education that is the responsibility of the companies; it's almost impossible for an individual to obtain. I have to disagree. Many senior systems prorammers had no mentors because there was literally no one senior enough to have had the experiences. In addition, the opportunity to learn from hands on was significantly more restricted than it is today. Any mainframe company without sufficient expertise is bad for all of us. Mainframes already get bad press. While I can appreciate the sentiment, I think you're overstating the case by a fair amount. Good press or bad press isn't likely to occur based on any of the arguments you're advancing. If people can't see the good in forty-plus years of achievement, then they're not likely to see it in a well-run data center or anything else for that matter. In addition, you're assuming that there is enough factual reporting and discrimination on the part of the reader to distinguish a mainframe outage from any other platform. Whether or not the mainframe does well, will depend far more on political decisions than technical ones, but that's a different agenda and a different issue. Once again, those organizations that will require mainframes will keep them, while those that don't will have multiple choices. Honestly, the discussion about mainframes isn't being very precise, since the majority of the people on this forum are concerned about z/OS and not mainframes. In many cases, a mainframe running another operating system would be considered as big a loss as anything. Perhaps instead of worrying so much about answering questions, we should be asking them to expand our own horizons. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Maybe we should not answer those questions. I suggested that a long time ago, and was run through the wringer because of it. - Each of us may do as we wish. There is no guarantee from any of us to answer any particular question. Each of us participates as we wish. If anyone thinks that a question is not worth answering for whatever reason, then the easiest thing to do is what I do. Ignore it. Why bother to fan flames or pour gasoline onto them? Only once in my memory has anybody complained when then did not get an answer for people. This is a free (gratis and libre) forum. If I don't want to answer a question, I am not under any obligation to do so. If I do give an answer, everybody better understand that it is not guaranteed to be correct. I try to not give bad information out, but I sometimes do. This is not a formal support forum for anything. It is a corner pub, without the booze, chips and dart board. (so to speak - I've never been in a pub). -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I was fortunate when I was promoted to a sysprog job back in 1978 to have a boss who was a very good mentor. Sometimes, when he wanted me to do a project that he knew I didn't have any experience in, he would call me into his office. He would show me the book I needed and the relevant sections, and give me an overview of what I needed to know. Also, everyone else in the department was very helpful when I had questions. I think that whole experience was invaluable. I remember going to the Synergistics OS Users Group about 2 weeks after I started as a sysprog. I thought they were talking a foreign language. This group met quarterly. By the 3rd of 4th meeting, things made a whole lot more sense. We used to get 50 to 60 people in per meeting in Milwaukee back in the late 70s and early 80s. By 1993, it was hard to get 10 or 15 people, and the group finally disbanded. Anyone out there remember the old group? Eric Bielefeld Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer Milwaukee, Wisconsin 414-475-7434 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:43:44 -0400, Gerhard Adam wrote: . In addition, the opportunity to learn from hands on was significantly more restricted than it is today. On the other hand, we had Program Logic Manuals and microfiche. I spent many hours reading both so that I could understand the code that I was trying to interface to. In the process I gained a lot of insight into the workings of the system. I wouldn't trade that for anything. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 6:11 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:43:44 -0400, Gerhard Adam wrote: . In addition, the opportunity to learn from hands on was significantly more restricted than it is today. On the other hand, we had Program Logic Manuals and microfiche. I spent many hours reading both so that I could understand the code that I was trying to interface to. In the process I gained a lot of insight into the workings of the system. I wouldn't trade that for anything. -- Tom Marchant Hum, and everybody at my first job thought that I was weird for taking PLMs home to read over the weekend and on vacation. I don't miss the HIPO diagrams, however. I only looked a the fiche once. I needed to know how to convert an STCK value to printable date and time. At that time, I was fresh out of college and didn't have much assembler experience. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Is TCBECB supposed to be zero at end of task?
I don't feel a whole lot of need to answer this, as TCBECB is not a programming interface so you should not be relying on the contents of that field or current system behavior in regard to that field. But, for what it's worth, it is definitely the case that the normal system processing of detach happens to set TCBECB to 0 after posting the attacher's ECB.. Also, in case you weren't aware, an ETXR gets control after the attached task has completed termination. That means that all task-related storage owned by that task has been freed. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
