Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On 10 Sep 2007 10:12:27 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: David wrote: In other words, if a poster identifies himself with a .com address of a legit company say a bank in Hong Kong then I will be happy to help if I can. It's when the .com is a generic ISP such as Gmail or Yahoo that I start to question who it is asking for help. They can RTFM. David, I half agree with you... If a person is not prepared to register to the list with his company email address, it just tells me that probably 99% of the time he will not pass the requirements sometimes found at the bottom of emails... Most of the time I was on assignment, I posted to this list with my personal e-mail address and as a semi-retired systems and applications programmer, I of course do so. As a contractor I prefer not to have anything I say associated with the client. On this list, I start with the advantage/disadvantage of some of the other posters knowing me from SHARE. In being willing to answer a question, I go with looking at context such as how much work has the poster done prior to asking and what if any is their past posting record. Clark Morris The view of the sender does not necessary reflect the views of this company What I do not agree with is this... A large bank in Hong Kong have a much larger training budget, than the smaller .com, also when the person from the smaller company asks a question, it gives people on the list an idea, no1. where there are more companies to go and work for when NYSE gets rid of 1500 MIPS to go to AIX. Also it gives the trainers/sw salesmen on the list a better chance to target those companies in which there are a lack of knowledge. Regards Herbie (from an unknown .com... that is really a part of USBank, at least until April 2004 when they move the mainframe work back to Minneapolis) Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
It does have its advantages. I try to count to 10, take a walk, count to 10 again, then have a nap, then count some more before hitting send. If it was my personal email I might skip the nap part. (-: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Clark Morris Sent: 28. syyskuuta 2007 20:56 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] As a contractor I prefer not to have anything I say associated with the client. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
What he said PLUS there are several contributors either between jobs or retired who don't have a company ID. Bill From: Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:36:11 + What he said! Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use of company email addresses to post on public forums. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html _ More photos; more messages; more whatever. Windows Live Hotmail - NOW with 5GB storage. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-usocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
What he said PLUS there are several contributors either between jobs I resemble that remark! Just because you don't use a corporate account, doesn't mean you should not contribute. There is only ONE List-Serve that I know of which requires you to use a corporate e-mail to contribute. And, that is ISV-Costs (run by John Anderson of IBM Canada). So, I never joined because my former company forbade us from using our e-mail to contribute. And, now I cannot join because I am back out on the job market. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
In a message dated 9/12/2007 6:22:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is only ONE List-Serve that I know of which requires you to use a corporate e-mail to contribute. And, that is ISV-Costs (run by John Anderson of IBM Canada). So, I never joined because my former company forbade us from using our e-mail to contribute. And, now I cannot join because I am back out on the job market. So create a new corporation named, perhaps, Eamacneil Enterprises. A corporate e-mail should be an easy second step. Show me a law, and I will show you a loophole. [First rule of lawyers] Bill Fairchild Plainfield, IL ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Bill there are several contributors ... between jobs ... In some professions it's called resting. Chris Mason - Original Message - From: Bill Wilkie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 12:52 PM Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Sincere apologies... I was probably wrong to create an absolute rule... Thanks for pointing out the other side of the coin to me... it was definitely in the shade, otherwise I would have noticed it, surely... -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Wilkie Sent: 12 September 2007 11:52 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] What he said PLUS there are several contributors either between jobs or retired who don't have a company ID. Bill From: Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:36:11 + What he said! Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use of company email addresses to post on public forums. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html _ More photos; more messages; more whatever. Windows Live Hotmail - NOW with 5GB storage. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-usocid=TXT_TAGHM_migr ation_HM_mini_5G_0907 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Not to mention us unwashed unemployed Ted MacNEIL wrote: What he said! Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use of company email addresses to post on public forums. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Here's one that I remember reading a while back: http://www.cio.com/article/131500/Eight_of_the_Worst_Spreadsheet_Blunder s The article itself even has an amusing error in blunder #3, entitled Fannie Mae Discovers $1.3 Billion Honest Mistake. They quote from PC World: 'Fannie Mae, which finances home mortgages, stated in a news release of third-quarter financials that it had discovered a $1.136 billion error in total shareholder equity. Jayne Shontell, Fannie Mae senior vice president for investor relations, explained in a written statement, There were honest mistakes made in a spreadsheet used in the implementation of a new accounting standard.' 1.136 = 1.3? Jon snip I've seen many a non-programming type (secretaries, VP's, accountants, and other usual suspects) build spreadsheets and assume, that because they typed it in, the figures were accurate. Not learning any programming discipline, they never learned to check for boundary conditions, cross-checking of rows vs columns, etc. I've seen corporate reports with tables with !#DIV/0 in the final product. I wish I could still find a copy of an article, from last year, that stated most re-statements of earnings were due to people without the discipline just dumping data into a spread sheet (without checking). /snip -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Howard, That is the funny thing... The customers is in Europa and sadly, they are unhappy too, not because the mainframe is moving to the US, but because the salesman is fluent Nordic / Polish / English / Spanish, but the moment he has to phone the helpdesk for support on his credit card machine... he could get someone from any of those languages on the line, and it might not match his language, he might be asked to repeat / spell his name 3 times during the conversation... So in the end he leaves, enticed by the next sales-man, ends up in a similar situation as before... and the wheel keeps on turning... Sorry, just had to wine a bit... Herbie Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Hello Herbie, Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use of company email addresses to post on public forums. Which is why this mail is from a .hotmail.com address. On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:12:14 +0100, Van Dalsen, Herbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip David, I half agree with you... If a person is not prepared to register to the list with his company email address, it just tells me that probably 99% of the time he will not pass the requirements sometimes found at the bottom of emails... snip Regards Bruce Hewson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
What he said! Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use of company email addresses to post on public forums. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
That's funny. My company forbids me from using anything other than my company email address !! Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use of company email addresses to post on public forums. - --- This e-mail is sent by Suncorp-Metway Limited ABN 66 010 831 722 or one of its related entities Suncorp. Suncorp may be contacted at Level 18, 36 Wickham Terrace, Brisbane or on 13 11 55 or at suncorp.com.au. The content of this e-mail is the view of the sender or stated author and does not necessarily reflect the view of Suncorp. The content, including attachments, is a confidential communication between Suncorp and the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, interference with, disclosure or copying of this e-mail, including attachments, is unauthorised and expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please contact the sender immediately and delete the e-mail and any attachments from your system. If this e-mail constitutes a commercial message of a type that you no longer wish to receive please reply to this e-mail by typing Unsubscribe in the subject line. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
That's funny. My company forbids me from using anything other than my company email address !! That (officially, or unofficially) makes you a spokesman. My former company only wanted corporate communications (or legal) to be spokesmen. In your case, there are a TON of legal issues! - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I'm in that category. But that's not why I'm always civil. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of FRASER, Brian Sent: 12. syyskuuta 2007 5:50 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] That's funny. My company forbids me from using anything other than my company email address !! Please remember that a lot of us work for companies who forbid our use of company email addresses to post on public forums. - -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
In many cases it has to do with not being to access web email accounts and they've turned off outgoing smtp and incoming pop3, imap, etc. ports for security reasons, which leaves one company email only by default. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: 12. syyskuuta 2007 5:56 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] That's funny. My company forbids me from using anything other than my company email address !! That (officially, or unofficially) makes you a spokesman. My former company only wanted corporate communications (or legal) to be spokesmen. In your case, there are a TON of legal issues! - Too busy driving to stop for gas! /archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The death of the mainframe community, was: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Dean How about the following? quote People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. . But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies; much less to render them necessary. Adam Smith,The Wealth of Nations, Book I, Chapter X /quote It's not precisely on-topic, but in the same ball-park, as you say over the pond. Chris Mason - Original Message - From: Dean Kent [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 6:47 AM Subject: Re: The death of the mainframe community, was: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] - Original Message - From: Mark Post [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 5:00 PM Subject: Re: The death of the mainframe community, was: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Of course you do. If you want to be _sure_ that nothing you say can ever be used to advantage by anyone outside your personally defined economic self interest, you might want to never post to the mailing list again. Otherwise you might let something slip that some aspiring mainframe technician in Brazil might be able to put to good use. Reading this thread, the word 'guild' kept coming to mind for some reason... ;-). Mark Post -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of John P Baker [ snip ] I believe that a good systems programmer must have the ability to maintain a well-ordered and logical mindset. Some 20 years ago an article in Computerworld noted that high-level software engineers had the second highest rate of nervous breakdowns after, yes, you guessed it, air traffic controllers. Hmmm Perhaps it was unwise that I followed an air traffic control career with a sysprog career. But I've never suffered a nervous breakdown in either career. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT work were outsourced. It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the economic argument you're on. From my perspective we in the developed world are in an economic war with India and China as well as Brazil and Russia. Aiding them is not in our economic self interest, therefore why should we? For my part, I believe a boycott is in order. So I guess we can assume that none of your electronics, automobiles, or clothing are made overseas, you only visit US websites, and of course you would have voted to sit out WWII? (OK, I'm kidding about the last two, but not about the first.) I'm astonished by the unprofessionalism evinced by this thread. If you don't want to answer a question, don't answer it. But whining about outsourcing based on someone's name, grasp of English, and possible naïvete is mind-bogglingly childish. I've been working with mainframes for 30+ years, but I'm not an MVS person. I'm employed by a US software vendor; we don't do services, we don't outsource. If I were to ask a naïve MVS question, should I expect to be flamed? Or do my coherent English and WASP last name ensure moderation? (Hmm, perhaps I should offer a service to Teja, Archana, and Rajesh, translating their queries into American and posting as Bob Jones, from a US-based .com address...reverse outsourcing!) This all starts to remind me of what my dad said about the average Unix newsgroup, some 25-30 years ago: If you ask a question, you get several responses: some flaming you for not knowing the answer in the first place, some flaming you for asking the question the way you asked it, and some flaming you for trying to do it that way in the first place. None of them actually make any effort to answer the question or help in any way. I sure hope this list isn't headed in that direction. We're adults, we should be able to act like it. ...phsiii -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... we in the developed world are in an economic war... Aiding them is not in our economic self interest... For my part, I believe a boycott is in order. Every individual is in an economic war with every other individual on earth for resources necessary for life. And every thing we do, every thought we have, every decision we make is always in our own self-interest, whether economic or otherwise and whether we realize it or not. This is the way life works. If we don't learn how to co-operate and thus mutually survive, the logical extreme of this self-interested warfare is for there to be only one person left alive who has killed everyone else. It would seem that some form of voluntary, mutual co-operation would be much better. There are many web sites where one can freely learn about various economic and political theories. Perhaps some browsing of them might also help in this regard. Bill Fairchild Plainfield, IL ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
It sounds like the thread is changing towards outsourcing again? Why don't we look at the reason for outsourcing? I see 2 major reasons... 1. The investor's greed to earn the max on his investment... 2. The Government of the country from which things are being outsourced, to create an environment that 1) stays competitive, but at the same time 2) remains viable for companies to operate in. What I mean with the last statement is, it must not become impossible for a factory worker to feed clothe his kids, because guess what, he will either up-skill, or go on social security(doll), the guy replacing him, will not work for that low a salary, because again, he has commitments to meet... I don't have the solution Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Tom wrote: Very few consultants (big 'C' or little 'c') from the U.S. would benefit from outsourcing in my experience. A few of the high-volume posters on this list might, but they are exceptions not the rule. Most consultants work within their own country and often tend to stay within their region within the country. (Unless it is a particularly small country or unless their specialty is sufficiently unique.) Those with spectacular skills may also be exceptions, of course, but they always will be. A lot of people prefer to live at home if they have the choice. Response: Happy to hear you have been unaffected by outsourcing to native consultants. Two jobs ago I and nine of my co-workers were replaced by a consulting company on a time and material basis. That arrangement lasted less than three years but caused quite a bit of grief to the folks involved. Not all outsourced jobs are sent offshore. You just might want to get out of D.C. and see the world before you make too many more assessments like that about Brazil, Russia, India or China. There are certainly highly developed pockets in each of those countries - and there are, conversely, underdeveloped pockets here in the U.S.) Response: Having worked overseas for six years, I think I probably have a better global view than most Americans, particularly the 90% who don't have a passport. To correct another assumption, I'm not in DC. I also never said that the aforementioned countries aren't capable. In fact the most knowledgeable MVS person I've ever met was a Brazilian instructor at the IBM Ed Centre in LaHulpe, Belgium. I still maintain that the original poster just wanted to expand his knowledge so he could get a chance at a promotion. I don't see anything particularly sinister or unexpected in that. Response: At the personal level your statement is probably true. It is within the larger context of jobs being siphoned out of the country that I may have a problem. In other words, if a poster identifies himself with a .com address of a legit company say a bank in Hong Kong then I will be happy to help if I can. It's when the .com is a generic ISP such as Gmail or Yahoo that I start to question who it is asking for help. They can RTFM. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
This reminds me of the advice given to those that live in glass houses. Tom Moulder -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Phil Smith III Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 7:39 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT work were outsourced. It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the economic argument you're on. From my perspective we in the developed world are in an economic war with India and China as well as Brazil and Russia. Aiding them is not in our economic self interest, therefore why should we? For my part, I believe a boycott is in order. So I guess we can assume that none of your electronics, automobiles, or clothing are made overseas, you only visit US websites, and of course you would have voted to sit out WWII? (OK, I'm kidding about the last two, but not about the first.) I'm astonished by the unprofessionalism evinced by this thread. If you don't want to answer a question, don't answer it. But whining about outsourcing based on someone's name, grasp of English, and possible naïvete is mind-bogglingly childish. I've been working with mainframes for 30+ years, but I'm not an MVS person. I'm employed by a US software vendor; we don't do services, we don't outsource. If I were to ask a naïve MVS question, should I expect to be flamed? Or do my coherent English and WASP last name ensure moderation? (Hmm, perhaps I should offer a service to Teja, Archana, and Rajesh, translating their queries into American and posting as Bob Jones, from a US-based .com address...reverse outsourcing!) This all starts to remind me of what my dad said about the average Unix newsgroup, some 25-30 years ago: If you ask a question, you get several responses: some flaming you for not knowing the answer in the first place, some flaming you for asking the question the way you asked it, and some flaming you for trying to do it that way in the first place. None of them actually make any effort to answer the question or help in any way. I sure hope this list isn't headed in that direction. We're adults, we should be able to act like it. ...phsiii No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.12 - Release Date: 9/9/2007 12:00 AM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
John P Baker wrote on 09/09/2007 10:34:11 PM: I concur, but feel that you do not adequately stress the importance of curiosity. That, coupled with extreme laziness. ;-) If you have a work harder mentality, you'll never make it as a sysprog. A work smarter person is the type who simplifies, optimizes, innovates, etc. and makes the platform better. Working smarter is hard work too, but much more satisfying. Mark L. Wheeler IT Infrastructure, 3M Center B224-4N-20, St Paul MN 55144 Tel: (651) 733-4355, Fax: (651) 736-7689 mlwheeler at mmm.com “The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt” - Bertrand Russell -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
David, Well at least you don't have to read Anton Britz's email - he uses gmail... And I bet all the people China that use the local equivalents of hotmail and yahoo are glad you will still read their posts. Ron say a bank in Hong Kong then I will be happy to help if I can. It's when the .com is a generic ISP such as Gmail or Yahoo that I start to question who it is asking for help. They can RTFM. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:46:12 -0500 Mark L. Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: :John P Baker wrote on 09/09/2007 10:34:11 PM: : I concur, but feel that you do not adequately stress the importance of : curiosity. :That, coupled with extreme laziness. ;-) :If you have a work harder mentality, you'll never make it as a sysprog. A :work smarter person is the type who simplifies, optimizes, innovates, :etc. and makes the platform better. Working smarter is hard work too, but :much more satisfying. While I was at Western Electric, I eventually worked myself down to a few hours a week - I automated as much as possible. -- Binyamin Dissen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dissensoftware.com Director, Dissen Software, Bar Grill - Israel Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me, you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain. I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems, especially those from irresponsible companies. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Binyamin Dissen wrote: snip While I was at Western Electric, I eventually worked myself down to a few hours a week - I automated as much as possible. snip And then some management type person started wondering why you weren't always busy. -- Mark Jacobs Time Customer Service Tampa, FL -- Pound pastrami, can kraut, six bagels -- bring home for Emma. Isaac Edward Leibowitz (Saint Leibowitz) A Canticle for Leibowitz -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mark Jacobs Binyamin Dissen wrote: snip While I was at Western Electric, I eventually worked myself down to a few hours a week - I automated as much as possible. snip And then some management type person started wondering why you weren't always busy. Reminds me that I once had a tent card at my desk that read, I'm not loafing -- I work so fast, I'm always finished! -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:05:39 -0400 Mark Jacobs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: :Binyamin Dissen wrote: : :snip : While I was at Western Electric, I eventually worked myself down to a few : hours a week - I automated as much as possible. :And then some management type person started wondering why you weren't :always busy. No, at WE I had good managers. Also, pretty much the only time the SP's were noticed was when things were going wrong. They kind of liked it when there weren't any problems. But, I did get into trouble when I tried fixing things under other SP groups responsibilities - since their problems were giving me work. -- Binyamin Dissen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dissensoftware.com Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me, you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain. I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems, especially those from irresponsible companies. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On 9 Sep 2007 15:15:45 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tech support should answer ANY question asked of it. But IBM-Main is not some sort of commercial, for-pay technical support organization. *No one* comes to this list with some sort of legal, commercial or moral _right_ to assistance. On 10 Sep 2007 05:39:38 -0700, Phil Smith III wrote: This all starts to remind me of what my dad said about the average Unix newsgroup, some 25-30 years ago: If you ask a question, you get several responses: some flaming you for not knowing the answer in the first place, some flaming you for asking the question the way you asked it, and some flaming you for trying to do it that way in the first place. None of them actually make any effort to answer the question or help in any way. I sure hope this list isn't headed in that direction. We're adults, we should be able to act like it. Eric Steven Raymond has written an excellent FAQ called How To Ask Questions The Smart Way: http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html From this article: quote Before You Ask -- Before asking a technical question by e-mail, or in a newsgroup, or on a website chat board, do the following: 1. Try to find an answer by searching the archives of the forum you plan to post to. 2. Try to find an answer by searching the Web. 3. Try to find an answer by reading the manual. 4. Try to find an answer by reading a FAQ. 5. Try to find an answer by inspection or experimentation. 6. Try to find an answer by asking a skilled friend. 7. If you're a programmer, try to find an answer by reading the source code. When you ask your question, display the fact that you have done these things first; this will help establish that you're not being a lazy sponge and wasting people's time. Better yet, display what you have learned from doing these things. We like answering questions for people who have demonstrated they can learn from the answers. /quote I don't think it's unreasonable to expect anyone asking for help from this group to have first done a little research on their own. -- Eric Chevalier E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.tulsagrammer.com Is that call really worth your child's life? HANG UP AND DRIVE! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Eric Chevalier On 9 Sep 2007 15:15:45 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tech support should answer ANY question asked of it. But IBM-Main is not some sort of commercial, for-pay technical support organization. *No one* comes to this list with some sort of legal, commercial or moral _right_ to assistance. Neither is there any similar _obligation_ for anyone here to provide such assistance. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I too, am a consultant of sort, but not for outsourcing, My client wants me in their building to babysit their systems. I do not use their email address because all of this traffic floods the blackberry I have to carry, and because sometimes, I ask for information or offer information that is NOT on my client's behalf. I won't attach their name to advice that they won't accept from me, or to queries for my own interests. When I do ask or offer on their behalf, I include my work phone number so that people can reach me to talk about problems with what I have asked/offered. If the list generally agrees that affiliation needs to be known, I will add my client's name to the phone number, But I will still askoffer on my own account when appropriate. If that lack of corporate tattooing gets me less responses, so be it. Personally, I skip past a lot of those messages that are obviously from people who are way too far into the deep water to really save. /Tom Kern On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 19:16:32 -0400, O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT work were outsourced. It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the economic argument you're on. From my perspective we in the developed world are in an economic war with India and China as well as Brazil and Russia. Aiding them is not in our economic self interest, therefore why should we? For my part, I believe a boycott is in order. Dave O'Brien -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:02:19 EDT, IBM Mainframe Discussion List wrote: O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] wrote: ... we in the developed world are in an economic war... Aiding them is not in our economic self interest... For my part, I believe a boycott is in order. Every individual is in an economic war with every other individual on earth for resources necessary for life. And every thing we do, every thought we have, every decision we make is always in our own self-interest, whether economic or otherwise and whether we realize it or not. This is the way life works. If we don't learn how to co-operate and thus mutually survive, the logical extreme of this self-interested warfare is for there to be only one person left alive who has killed everyone else. I suspect that Freud, Dawkins, and Anatol Rappaport would all disagree with this conclusion, for their respective reasons. Perhaps two persons. ... It would seem that some form of voluntary, mutual co-operation would be much better. There are many web sites where one can freely learn about various economic and political theories. Perhaps some browsing of them might also help in this regard. Even the most doctrinaire evolutionists acknowledge the survival value of altruism. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
--snip-- Tech support should answer ANY question asked of it. But IBM-Main is not some sort of commercial, for-pay technical support organization. *No one* comes to this list with some sort of legal, commercial or moral _right_ to assistance. ---unsnip 100% agreement, as far as it goes. He should also realize that some responses might not comprise a complete solution to his problem. Each shop is different and a solution that works great in one shop may be inappropriate in another. Like the man says, YMMV. snip This all starts to remind me of what my dad said about the average Unix newsgroup, some 25-30 years ago: If you ask a question, you get several responses: some flaming you for not knowing the answer in the first place, some flaming you for asking the question the way you asked it, and some flaming you for trying to do it that way in the first place. None of them actually make any effort to answer the question or help in any way. I sure hope this list isn't headed in that direction. We're adults, we should be able to act like it. Eric Steven Raymond has written an excellent FAQ called How To Ask Questions The Smart Way: http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html From this article: quote Before You Ask -- Before asking a technical question by e-mail, or in a newsgroup, or on a website chat board, do the following: 1. Try to find an answer by searching the archives of the forum you plan to post to. 2. Try to find an answer by searching the Web. 3. Try to find an answer by reading the manual. 4. Try to find an answer by reading a FAQ. 5. Try to find an answer by inspection or experimentation. 6. Try to find an answer by asking a skilled friend. 7. If you're a programmer, try to find an answer by reading the source code. When you ask your question, display the fact that you have done these things first; this will help establish that you're not being a lazy sponge and wasting people's time. Better yet, display what you have learned from doing these things. We like answering questions for people who have demonstrated they can learn from the answers. /quote I don't think it's unreasonable to expect anyone asking for help from this group to have first done a little research on their own. ---unsnip--- I agree that the questioner needs to take some reasonable steps before consulting the list, but given the complexity of IBM's documentation these days, I don't believe it's unreasonable to ask for help in learning where to look. This is one reason I like BookManager so much; its search engine seems to be FAR more efficient than Library Manager or the various PDF-related tools. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
David wrote: In other words, if a poster identifies himself with a .com address of a legit company say a bank in Hong Kong then I will be happy to help if I can. It's when the .com is a generic ISP such as Gmail or Yahoo that I start to question who it is asking for help. They can RTFM. David, I half agree with you... If a person is not prepared to register to the list with his company email address, it just tells me that probably 99% of the time he will not pass the requirements sometimes found at the bottom of emails... The view of the sender does not necessary reflect the views of this company What I do not agree with is this... A large bank in Hong Kong have a much larger training budget, than the smaller .com, also when the person from the smaller company asks a question, it gives people on the list an idea, no1. where there are more companies to go and work for when NYSE gets rid of 1500 MIPS to go to AIX. Also it gives the trainers/sw salesmen on the list a better chance to target those companies in which there are a lack of knowledge. Regards Herbie (from an unknown .com... that is really a part of USBank, at least until April 2004 when they move the mainframe work back to Minneapolis) Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:16:21 -0400, David W. O'Brien wrote: It's when the .com is a generic ISP such as Gmail or Yahoo that I start to question who it is asking for help. They can RTFM. I do RTFM. I've been involved with this group for many years. When I left Wayne State seven years ago I got an email address that would survive any future job changes. I still use a yahoo email address because 1. It keeps the list traffic off of my work account. I need to use email to do my job and I don't need over two thousand additional emails from IBM-MAIN cluttering up my mail here. I don't always monitor the list, and I don't want to feel oblibated to catch up with everything. Because of this, I am also set to NOMAIL and I read the list through the web interface. 2. It keeps the brain-dead disclaimer that my company puts on emails that I send outside the company off of the lists. 3. I don't have to worry about the brain-dead Out of Office Autoreply that my boss expects me to put up when I am unavailable. Again, less clutter on the list. 4. It keeps the spam away from my work account. 5. When I first left Wayne State, I went to work at a company that did not want their name identified on the list. I've moved on since then, but I am still not here as a company spokesman. There are probably other reasons. I will continue to use my yahoo email for any postings to this group. There are many on this list whose opinions I value who also use an email provider that is not their employer. Some of them do not currently have an employer. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Tom, You are a frequent poster to this list and my comments were certainly not directed at you. I am sorry you seem to have taken my remarks personally. The above also applies to any other frequent poster to this group who give more than they receive. Regards, Dave O'Brien Tom Marchant mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:16:21 -0400, David W. O'Brien wrote: It's when the .com is a generic ISP such as Gmail or Yahoo that I start to question who it is asking for help. They can RTFM. I do RTFM. I've been involved with this group for many years. When I left Wayne State seven years ago I got an email address that would survive any future job changes. I still use a yahoo email address because 1. It keeps the list traffic off of my work account. I need to use email to do my job and I don't need over two thousand additional emails from IBM-MAIN cluttering up my mail here. I don't always monitor the list, and I don't want to feel oblibated to catch up with everything. Because of this, I am also set to NOMAIL and I read the list through the web interface. 2. It keeps the brain-dead disclaimer that my company puts on emails that I send outside the company off of the lists. 3. I don't have to worry about the brain-dead Out of Office Autoreply that my boss expects me to put up when I am unavailable. Again, less clutter on the list. 4. It keeps the spam away from my work account. 5. When I first left Wayne State, I went to work at a company that did not want their name identified on the list. I've moved on since then, but I am still not here as a company spokesman. There are probably other reasons. I will continue to use my yahoo email for any postings to this group. There are many on this list whose opinions I value who also use an email provider that is not their employer. Some of them do not currently have an employer. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:30:10 -0500, Tom Marchant m42tom- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:16:21 -0400, David W. O'Brien wrote: When I left Wayne State seven years ago I got an email address that would survive any future job changes. Wayne State in Nebraska? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On 10 Sep 2007 06:04:53 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: Why don't we look at the reason for outsourcing? I see 2 major reasons... 1. The investor's greed to earn the max on his investment... 2. The Government of the country from which things are being outsourced, to create an environment that 1) stays competitive, but at the same time 2) remains viable for companies to operate in. What I mean with the last statement is, it must not become impossible for a factory worker to feed clothe his kids, because guess what, he will either up-skill, or go on social security(doll), the guy replacing him, will not work for that low a salary, because again, he has commitments to meet... When our customers are overseas, there is a strong pressure to hire workers from those same countries. Certainly we give similar pressure in return. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On 8 Sep 2007 04:58:03 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: No, I see it as an abrogation of corporate governance. Customers that once demanded 5 nines (or better) of their IT department(s) now accept anything that reduces their bottom line. I am now less inclined to perpetuate the misdemeanour by answering newbie questions on public fora. The big wigs used to think of computers as being rocket science that only gurus could understand.But now they think of computers as toys that children use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:51 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] On 8 Sep 2007 04:58:03 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: No, I see it as an abrogation of corporate governance. Customers that once demanded 5 nines (or better) of their IT department(s) now accept anything that reduces their bottom line. I am now less inclined to perpetuate the misdemeanour by answering newbie questions on public fora. The big wigs used to think of computers as being rocket science that only gurus could understand.But now they think of computers as toys that children use. Same with end users. They know how to use email, word, and a spreadsheet. Therefore, they know that writing programs is very simple and fast and aren't willing to wait while IT messes around with things. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Howard: You make an interesting point. I was told by a friend that his grandson, who is about 11, does the same thing I do. At the time, I was a Consulting SSE in Worldwide Support with HDS. Bill From: Howard Brazee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:51:23 -0600 On 8 Sep 2007 04:58:03 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: No, I see it as an abrogation of corporate governance. Customers that once demanded 5 nines (or better) of their IT department(s) now accept anything that reduces their bottom line. I am now less inclined to perpetuate the misdemeanour by answering newbie questions on public fora. The big wigs used to think of computers as being rocket science that only gurus could understand.But now they think of computers as toys that children use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html _ Share your special parenting moments! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHMloc=us -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
But now they think of computers as toys that children use. For years, programming was considered a skill (or an art). The, visi-calc (and successors) came out. I've seen many a non-programming type (secretaries, VP's, accountants, and other usual suspects) build spreadsheets and assume, that because they typed it in, the figures were accurate. Not learning any programming discipline, they never learned to check for boundary conditions, cross-checking of rows vs columns, etc. I've seen corporate reports with tables with !#DIV/0 in the final product. I wish I could still find a copy of an article, from last year, that stated most re-statements of earnings were due to people without the discipline just dumping data into a spread sheet (without checking). Now, secretaries are preparing financial documentation, rather than professional accountants. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
My daughter always told her teachers that I went to work to play on the computer... -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Wilkie Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2007 8:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Howard: You make an interesting point. I was told by a friend that his grandson, who is about 11, does the same thing I do. At the time, I was a Consulting SSE in Worldwide Support with HDS. Bill --- This e-mail is sent by Suncorp-Metway Limited ABN 66 010 831 722 or one of its related entities Suncorp. Suncorp may be contacted at Level 18, 36 Wickham Terrace, Brisbane or on 13 11 55 or at suncorp.com.au. The content of this e-mail is the view of the sender or stated author and does not necessarily reflect the view of Suncorp. The content, including attachments, is a confidential communication between Suncorp and the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, interference with, disclosure or copying of this e-mail, including attachments, is unauthorised and expressly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please contact the sender immediately and delete the e-mail and any attachments from your system. If this e-mail constitutes a commercial message of a type that you no longer wish to receive please reply to this e-mail by typing Unsubscribe in the subject line. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
If a person is not prepared to register to the list with his company email address, it just tells me that probably 99% of the time he will not pass the requirements sometimes found at the bottom of emails... That bias is not necessarily true. I use a YAHOO account for two reasons: 1. When I was employed, my former company forbade me from using my corporate e-mail account on public forums. They did not want it to appear as statements representing their opinions - regardless of the disclaimer. 2. Now that I am down-sized, I do not have a corporate account. Also, a YAHOO account is portable to my personal BlackBerry. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
---snip--- On the other hand, we had Program Logic Manuals and microfiche. I spent many hours reading both so that I could understand the code that I was trying to interface to. In the process I gained a lot of insight into the workings of the system. I wouldn't trade that for anything. ---unsnip- Same here, but I had the actual source code, on tape, so I could play with it. My first boss, in college, explained that he'd set up each utility I need, the first time. After that, I had to read the manual and do it myself. But he'd still help out if I got in a jam, and he encouraged me to experiment. Mistakes were made, many times, but each was a learning experience. I could get all the machine time I wanted, between 5:00PM Saturday and 7:00AM Monday, and from 10:00PM to the following 7:00AM during the rest of the week. Of course, A sysgen Stage-1 took 2 hours to assemble, and a stage-2 took all of Saturday night and most of Sunday. (S/360 Model 44, with 256k of storage and six spindles of 2319 DASD.) During my college time, I had the great good fortune to be sent to OS/360 school, in San Jose. A truly unforgettable experience. A good mentor (Thank you, Scott, Darryl, Joe, Paul, Robin, Ken, Don, James, and all the others) is a wonderful adjunct to formal training; neither can stand alone and neither can completely substitute for experience. I had a RACF auditor, fresh from RACF school, who had a LOT of mistaken ideas about what RACF could or could not do. He was in our shop for two weeks and got a real eye-opener of an education. He kept insisting that RACF had some magical ability and I kept betting him steak lunches. His company bought me steak lunches every day for two weeks, but the auditor got some serious education and experience, a lot cheaper than the RACF class that he'd recently attended. I maintain that a good sysprog stands on a tripod. First comes formal training; it's not the cure-all but it gives a foundation to build upon. Experience, including the experience of searching manuals for relevant documentation, is the second leg. And the third leg is a willing, patient and knowledgeable mentor. Take away any of these three legs and things start to get really wobbly. I must admit that it came as a shock to me when I went from HAVING a mentor to BEING the mentor. Sandy and I fought almost like a married couple at times, but I'm sure that she still remembers much that I helped her learn. Not taught but helped her learn, and I believe that there's a huge difference between the two. Just as Bob and Rich helped me learn so much about SMS and WLM during their visits to my shop as consultants. WLM is still very much a black box to me; I actually LIKED working with SRM, with the IPS and ICS specifications, mainly because I understood them fairly well. But now, thanks to Rich, I at least understand the concepts of WLM much better, even though I still have problems with specific parameters and situations. SMS turned out to be far easier than I originally thought, thanks to Bob's pointing me in the right directions for reading material, and in his extended visit we became great friends. IMHO, this is how really good sysprogs are built. IBM-MAIN participants are a wonderful adjunct to mentors; each of us has skills and knowledge that we're willing to share, and each of us is not so overinflated of ego that we're unwilling (or afraid) to admit that we all could use a little help now and then. My only problem is that some posters manage to mangle the English language so badly that we can't understand what they're asking. :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thought about it. A few years ago I visited Hursley, England, and spoke with the IBM'er in charge of training for Asia. He told me that ed centers there generally charge $25 per student day and make a profit. I can't afford to work that cheap, I'm afraid. Minimum class size 200 students, maybe? ...phsiii -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:10:39 -0500, Rick Fochtman wrote: I maintain that a good sysprog stands on a tripod. First comes formal training; it's not the cure-all but it gives a foundation to build upon. Experience, including the experience of searching manuals for relevant documentation, is the second leg. And the third leg is a willing, patient and knowledgeable mentor. Take away any of these three legs and things start to get really wobbly. I partially disagree -- a good sysprog needs four legs, not just the three you mentioned. The fourth leg is a very strong innate curiousity. Without that, you may spend a lot of money, time and patience on someone unwilling to open the books, manuals, or even videos in order to learn the craft. I have seen several such sysprog-wannabe employees in my day and have learned not to waste much of my time or energy on them. I suspect that many of the rest of you have noticed that over the years. (Maybe you are just too polite to mention it here? Seems somewhat unlikely given the tone of the list of late.) -- Tom Schmidt Madison, WI (I'm not really a curmudgeon nor have I ever played one on TV.) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Sep 9, 2007, at 12:34 PM, Tom Schmidt wrote: -SDNIP-- I partially disagree -- a good sysprog needs four legs, not just the three you mentioned. The fourth leg is a very strong innate curiousity. Without that, you may spend a lot of money, time and patience on someone unwilling to open the books, manuals, or even videos in order to learn the craft. I have seen several such sysprog-wannabe employees in my day and have learned not to waste much of my time or energy on them. I suspect that many of the rest of you have noticed that over the years. (Maybe you are just too polite to mention it here? Seems somewhat unlikely given the tone of the list of late.) Tom: I really agree with you. I have seen many a sysprog wanna be's sit back and want the world served up to them. I walked into one place and 3 out of the 3 sysprogs were exactly like that. It took 2 years to get rid of them but it was worth it. They had no interest whatsoever in learning. Early on I had one come up up to me and ask a question that should have gotten him fired on the spot. I handed him a manual and told him to look it up. He was too lazy to and tried an end run. I walked up to him while he was asking someone else and I asked him if he couldn't find the answer in the book. He spent his entire day scheduling volley ball beach games. Between the boss and myself it took 1 year to get rid of him. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Of course had this person known about this list and queried here using his AOL or Comcast or GMAIL ID, he might never have been found out. Which brings me back to the question - Do we offer free tech support to those unwilling to read the manual? Or worse pass themselves off as competent to organizations devoted to outsourcing OUR jobs? If the poster is unwilling to identify his/herself and the organization they work for, perhaps we should without advice for our own benefit. Dave O'Brien Ed Gould wrote I really agree with you. I have seen many a sysprog wanna be's sit back and want the world served up to them. I walked into one place and 3 out of the 3 sysprogs were exactly like that. It took 2 years to get rid of them but it was worth it. They had no interest whatsoever in learning. Early on I had one come up up to me and ask a question that should have gotten him fired on the spot. I handed him a manual and told him to look it up. He was too lazy to and tried an end run. I walked up to him while he was asking someone else and I asked him if he couldn't find the answer in the book. He spent his entire day scheduling volley ball beach games. Between the boss and myself it took 1 year to get rid of him. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Do we offer free tech support to those unwilling to read the manual? Or worse pass themselves off as competent to organizations devoted to outsourcing OUR jobs? You still don't get it! If you don't like outsourcing, or the low wage policies, then those need to be addressed through political means and not by some childish notion of I'm not going to answer your question. Tech support should answer ANY question asked of it. If the question is ridiculous or too general, then don't answer it. There is certainly not much possibility that an answer is so thorough that it will produce an expert instantaneously. If we start judging who is worthy of having a question answered or not, then, if this is what it means to be a mainframe systems programmer then we will deservedly be pushed aside. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Charter.net? and just who do you represent? From: Gerhard Adam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sun 9/9/2007 6:15 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Do we offer free tech support to those unwilling to read the manual? Or worse pass themselves off as competent to organizations devoted to outsourcing OUR jobs? You still don't get it! If you don't like outsourcing, or the low wage policies, then those need to be addressed through political means and not by some childish notion of I'm not going to answer your question. Tech support should answer ANY question asked of it. If the question is ridiculous or too general, then don't answer it. There is certainly not much possibility that an answer is so thorough that it will produce an expert instantaneously. If we start judging who is worthy of having a question answered or not, then, if this is what it means to be a mainframe systems programmer then we will deservedly be pushed aside. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Charter.net? and just who do you represent? Who do I represent? Well, not that it's really any of your business, but I'm a consultant with 35+ years as a MVS/zOS systems programmer. I don't believe there's any reason why I need to justify the use of a particular ISP to you. However if you must know ... this is what works at the hotel I'm staying at while I'm on an assignment. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT work were outsourced. It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the economic argument you're on. From my perspective we in the developed world are in an economic war with India and China as well as Brazil and Russia. Aiding them is not in our economic self interest, therefore why should we? For my part, I believe a boycott is in order. Dave O'Brien Charter.net? and just who do you represent? Who do I represent? Well, not that it's really any of your business, but I'm a consultant with 35+ years as a MVS/zOS systems programmer. I don't believe there's any reason why I need to justify the use of a particular ISP to you. However if you must know ... this is what works at the hotel I'm staying at while I'm on an assignment. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT work were outsourced. It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the economic argument you're on. I can't quite believe that you could truly be that naive. However I do see your agenda, so there's not much point in continuing this dialogue. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The death of the mainframe community, was: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Sun, Sep 9, 2007 at 7:16 PM, in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT work were outsourced. You seem to be saying that people can't look beyond their own short-term economic interests when making comments. How sad for you. It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the economic argument you're on. There you go again. Why do you think economics has anything to do with anyone's position, except your own? From my perspective we in the developed world are in an economic war with India and China as well as Brazil and Russia. Aiding them is not in our economic self interest, therefore why should we? Because it may be the right thing to do, economics or not? I know, that doesn't seem to fit into your world view. For my part, I believe a boycott is in order. Of course you do. If you want to be _sure_ that nothing you say can ever be used to advantage by anyone outside your personally defined economic self interest, you might want to never post to the mailing list again. Otherwise you might let something slip that some aspiring mainframe technician in Brazil might be able to put to good use. Mark Post And, since it seems that you believe anything anyone says in a mailing list is somehow representing their employer (or whatever), please insert here the standard disclaimer otherwise. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Sep 9, 2007, at 5:06 PM, O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] wrote: Of course had this person known about this list and queried here using his AOL or Comcast or GMAIL ID, he might never have been found out. Which brings me back to the question - Do we offer free tech support to those unwilling to read the manual? Or worse pass themselves off as competent to organizations devoted to outsourcing OUR jobs? If the poster is unwilling to identify his/herself and the organization they work for, perhaps we should without advice for our own benefit. Dave O'Brien Dave: Its like any department in the organization IMO. Some departments are wide open and some are closed. It really depends on the department head. In this case the list is run on a educational computer. They should be leading the way by example. Since it is an open list it would seem reasonable that anyone can join (even if they come from a society that doesn't believe in a free flow of information) or they come from a society who is benefiting from *OUR* poor management. We can blame the others for our ills or we can listen and not give advice. I personally think a hands off approach is best, like star treks rule #1 of non interference. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I'll grant that point. Without a basic curiousity, no sysprog is worth his salt. --snip--- On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:10:39 -0500, Rick Fochtman wrote: I maintain that a good sysprog stands on a tripod. First comes formal training; it's not the cure-all but it gives a foundation to build upon. Experience, including the experience of searching manuals for relevant documentation, is the second leg. And the third leg is a willing, patient and knowledgeable mentor. Take away any of these three legs and things start to get really wobbly. I partially disagree -- a good sysprog needs four legs, not just the three you mentioned. The fourth leg is a very strong innate curiousity. Without that, you may spend a lot of money, time and patience on someone unwilling to open the books, manuals, or even videos in order to learn the craft. I have seen several such sysprog-wannabe employees in my day and have learned not to waste much of my time or energy on them. I suspect that many of the rest of you have noticed that over the years. (Maybe you are just too polite to mention it here? Seems somewhat unlikely given the tone of the list of late.) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
In a message dated 9/9/2007 5:07:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do we offer free tech support to those unwilling to read the manual? Or worse pass themselves off as competent to organizations devoted to outsourcing OUR jobs? If the poster is unwilling to identify his/herself and the organization they work for, perhaps we should without advice for our own benefit. Usually give 'em a break and try to get the fire of knowledge lit otherwise just move them over to the slobberkill file and let the wonder carpers ponder the silence ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I concur, but feel that you do not adequately stress the importance of curiosity. I suggest that a very strong innate curiosity is insufficient. A good systems programmer must have a virtually insatiable curiosity. I sometimes wonder whether any wholly sane individual would seek to go into the field of systems programming. This leads me into my second point. I believe that a good systems programmer must have the ability to maintain a well-ordered and logical mindset. Some 20 years ago an article in Computerworld noted that high-level software engineers had the second highest rate of nervous breakdowns after, yes, you guessed it, air traffic controllers. I tend to believe that the study was reasonably accurate. Many of my friends have left the field over the years, not for lack of work, but due to burnout, stress, and in some cases nervous breakdowns. John P Baker Heath Springs, SC I partially disagree -- a good sysprog needs four legs, not just the three you mentioned. The fourth leg is a very strong innate curiousity. Without that, you may spend a lot of money, time and patience on someone unwilling to open the books, manuals, or even videos in order to learn the craft. I have seen several such sysprog-wannabe employees in my day and have learned not to waste much of my time or energy on them. I suspect that many of the rest of you have noticed that over the years. (Maybe you are just too polite to mention it here? Seems somewhat unlikely given the tone of the list of late.) -- Tom Schmidt Madison, WI (I'm not really a curmudgeon nor have I ever played one on TV.) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I suggest that a very strong innate curiosity is insufficient. A good systems programmer must have a virtually insatiable curiosity. I sometimes wonder whether any wholly sane individual would seek to go into the field of systems programming. OK ... there's alot of self-motivation that goes into being good in any reasonably challenging career. However, let's not get too carried away with ourselves. We don't leap tall buildings in a single bound, we aren't faster than locomotives. There are many, many fields that are far more stressful, and there are a significant number of careers that require considerably more knowledge (and responsibility) than systems programming, so let's keep things in perspective. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The death of the mainframe community, was: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
- Original Message - From: Mark Post [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 5:00 PM Subject: Re: The death of the mainframe community, was: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Of course you do. If you want to be _sure_ that nothing you say can ever be used to advantage by anyone outside your personally defined economic self interest, you might want to never post to the mailing list again. Otherwise you might let something slip that some aspiring mainframe technician in Brazil might be able to put to good use. Reading this thread, the word 'guild' kept coming to mind for some reason... ;-). Mark Post -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 19:16:32 -0400, O'Brien, David W. (NIH/CIT) [C] wrote: Ah, Consultant which puts you in amongst those who would benefit if all IT work were outsourced. It may not be my business but it helps to know which side of the economic argument you're on. From where I sit he is on the same side of the economic argument that YOU are on (and me, too, for that matter). Very few consultants (big 'C' or little 'c') from the U.S. would benefit from outsourcing in my experience. A few of the high-volume posters on this list might, but they are exceptions not the rule. Most consultants work within their own country and often tend to stay within their region within the country. (Unless it is a particularly small country or unless their specialty is sufficiently unique.) Those with spectacular skills may also be exceptions, of course, but they always will be. A lot of people prefer to live at home if they have the choice. From my perspective we in the developed world are in an economic war with India and China as well as Brazil and Russia. Aiding them is not in our economic self interest, therefore why should we? You just might want to get out of D.C. and see the world before you make too many more assessments like that about Brazil, Russia, India or China. There are certainly highly developed pockets in each of those countries - and there are, conversely, underdeveloped pockets here in the U.S.) -- Tom Schmidt Madison, WI (I still maintain that the original poster just wanted to expand his knowledge so he could get a chance at a promotion. I don't see anything particularly sinister or unexpected in that.) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I'm certainly not at a level of knowledge of z/OS that I would like to be. I'm often in awe at how much people on this and other lists know. I like though that there is still a lot of cool stuff to learn. I started with IBM mainframes in 1982 when I was at the university. I was a music major and I wanted to learn about computers. They had a smaller room with the micro computers in that was kept locked and you had to be a CS major or have special permission to use those. Next to it though (this was in the data center building) was a bigger open room with IBM 3270 and DEC terminals and a bunch of documentation. (There was also an adjacent room with a machine they called a Widget and was used by CS 101 students. No idea what that was, but I think something by IBM.) I got an account on an IBM 4341 running VM/CMS. I still remember my userid: MULINDY. I didn't know how to program. I managed to teach myself a bit of Waterloo Basic but I couldn't do much. I was so intrigued by these machines that I would stay there all night long just hacking at the OS, learning to write Execs, and so on. I never got to take any CS classes. I belong now to a couple of Yahoo Groups which is made up of mostly people new to z/OS, and I help out and answer questions when I can. If I'm not mistaken, by the names, most of the people are from India. It is not uncommon to see posts like this: quote Hi, I have been developing applications for zOS using the USS for some time. Now, I want to learn more about the zOS. Can somebody give me tips where to start learning zOS, TSO, ISPF, SDSF, etc? Soon we will be getting a dedicated development environment from IBM, where I will have to operate everything myself. Thanks for the replies. /quote (No idea how to answer that. Steve you want to open a branch office in India?) I absolutely do not want to bring up the pros cons of outsourcing. The fact is, though, places like India are getting a lot of mainframe work. And indeed there are a lot of areas in the world where mainframes still have a chance to take hold. I'm thinking China may be a big up-and-coming market (but I've no facts to back that up). One point I'm making is that it took me years and a lot of difficult study to grow to my current level. Yet there are many people now being handed an MVS job to do and told to get to it. Do others see this as a challenge? That mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them? And how do you learn what you need to know - things that normally take experience and time - so quickly? Perhaps Steve if he reads this has some answers. I for one am very happy to see so many new (and young) people interested in working with IBM mainframes. Having survived the Microsoft Wars I'm happy our side didn't lose. Remember things like in 1991 when Stewart Alsop wrote, I predict that the last mainframe will be unplugged on 15 March 1996. (If centralization by virtualization continues to be a better way to go, then people will realize that there are better OS's than MS for this and make the natural switch to Unix and mainframe servers. I predict that the last MS server will be unplugged by 2025.) (-: On a good note, you can't stop people from learning z/OS no matter how hard you try (IBM). z/OS 1.6 ADCD (I've read) is available to download on some of the bittorrent networks. (Well, for all I know IBM actually put them out there, and if so, smart move.) Kind regards, Lindy -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
(There was also an adjacent room with a machine they called a Widget and was used by CS 101 students. No idea what that was, but I think something by IBM.) WIDJET. Waterloo Interactive Debug and Job Entry Terminal. Written by the University of Waterloo. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 12:40 +0200, Lindy Mayfield wrote: One point I'm making is that it took me years and a lot of difficult study to grow to my current level. Yet there are many people now being handed an MVS job to do and told to get to it. Do others see this as a challenge? No, I see it as an abrogation of corporate governance. Customers that once demanded 5 nines (or better) of their IT department(s) now accept anything that reduces their bottom line. I am now less inclined to perpetuate the misdemeanour by answering newbie questions on public fora. z/OS 1.6 ADCD (I've read) is available to download on some of the bittorrent networks. If it is, some-one has put their gonads on the chopping block. IBMs licensing requirements tend to be very specific. And not at all magnanimous. Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
A PDP-11! Wow, if I only knew then... -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: 8. syyskuuta 2007 14:35 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] (There was also an adjacent room with a machine they called a Widget and was used by CS 101 students. No idea what that was, but I think something by IBM.) WIDJET. Waterloo Interactive Debug and Job Entry Terminal. Written by the University of Waterloo. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Lindy Mayfield wrote: [snip] I belong now to a couple of Yahoo Groups which is made up of mostly people new to z/OS, and I help out and answer questions when I can. If I'm not mistaken, by the names, most of the people are from India. It is not uncommon to see posts like this: quote Hi, I have been developing applications for zOS using the USS for some time. Now, I want to learn more about the zOS. Can somebody give me tips where to start learning zOS, TSO, ISPF, SDSF, etc? Soon we will be getting a dedicated development environment from IBM, where I will have to operate everything myself. Thanks for the replies. /quote I've started a folder I call pathetic_outsourcing_questions, all come from the MVSQuest Yahoo group, and they are all from India, people seeking free information with no idea how to go about it. Here's some samples: --- Hello Guru's, Could any 1 tell me in DB2 V7 S/390 : Q.) How to Extract data from SYSIBM.SYSLGRNX Q) What is exact use of DSN.BSDS files Q) How to Read Active Log of DB2. Thanks Teja --- Hi folks, This is Nandha, i need mainframe server to practice from home.Becuase i am doing mainframe course and i need to practice a lot. Pl anyone help me. Regards, Nnadhakumar --- Hi Grp, I am learning REXX i want a material which is right from scrath...till depth..including panels... Please dont send me an links..because i cant access net in my Project. Awaiting for the reply. Thanks in advance. Archana Reddy Chundi Tata Consultancy Services Limited Mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.tcs.com --- Hi Guys, Is Anyone has Learning Material on Coolgen Please send it It will be of great help Thanks And Regards Rajesh --- Hi, Can anyone please send me some materials on PLI. Thanks regards, sairathi. --- Hi all I am preparing for DB2 family fundamental Exam(700) . Please send me previous question paper and related material . So that i can easily clear the exam . Please send , i will be thankful to you . Regards Suprakash Mohapatra --- Hi, Could any please elobertae about LOW VALUES and HIGH VALUES. EG: MOVE LOW-VALUES TO INREC MOVE HIGH-VALUES TO OUTREC and what is the difference b/w the Record Formats V and VB. Thanks --- etc. (No idea how to answer that. Steve you want to open a branch office in India?) Thought about it. A few years ago I visited Hursley, England, and spoke with the IBM'er in charge of training for Asia. He told me that ed centers there generally charge $25 per student day and make a profit. I can't afford to work that cheap, I'm afraid. I absolutely do not want to bring up the pros cons of outsourcing. The fact is, though, places like India are getting a lot of mainframe work. And indeed there are a lot of areas in the world where mainframes still have a chance to take hold. I'm thinking China may be a big up-and-coming market (but I've no facts to back that up). A colleague of mine is constantly on the road to China; but he is teaching .NET type things to GE employees there; no mainframe. Still, it is going to be a center that includes mainframe work. [snip] Do others see this as a challenge? That mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them? And how do you learn what you need to know - things that normally take experience and time - so quickly? Perhaps Steve if he reads this has some answers. Wish it were so. I'm still running into the mindset of most medium to large companies getting off the mainframe (whether they actually accomplish that varies). The largest companies are committed to mainframes, so far. But as far as training, most organizations have dropped that priority way down the list; they expect employees to train themselves or find training on their own. Note: there are some exceptions, where training is still valued; just found one and I'm not giving out the name; we'll see. I for one am very happy to see so many new (and young) people interested in working with IBM mainframes. Having survived the Microsoft Wars I'm happy our side didn't lose. Well, we weren't wiped out. The war is not over. Remember things like in 1991 when Stewart Alsop wrote, I predict that the last mainframe will be unplugged on 15 March 1996. (If centralization by virtualization continues to be a better way to go, then people will realize that there are better OS's than MS for this and make the natural switch to Unix and mainframe servers. I predict that the last MS server will be unplugged by 2025.) (-: On a good note, you can't stop people from learning z/OS no matter how hard you try (IBM). z/OS 1.6 ADCD (I've read) is available to download on some of the bittorrent networks. (Well, for all I know IBM actually put them out there, and if so, smart move.) I agree with Shane on this: IBM did not do this in any authorized way and someone is at big legal risk for that. Kind regards, Lindy -- Kind regards, -Steve
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Maybe we should not answer those questions. The outsourced work went to a place where lower wages are paid. If they can not perform the work, things will fail any maybe get insourced. Or sourced to a competent firm. By answering the question you are now a free resource to the outsourcer. Refer them to the manual and let them read. On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 06:50:28 -0600, Steve Comstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lindy Mayfield wrote: [snip] I belong now to a couple of Yahoo Groups which is made up of mostly people new to z/OS, and I help out and answer questions when I can. If I'm not mistaken, by the names, most of the people are from India. It is not uncommon to see posts like this: quote Hi, I have been developing applications for zOS using the USS for some time. Now, I want to learn more about the zOS. Can somebody give me tips where to start learning zOS, TSO, ISPF, SDSF, etc? Soon we will be getting a dedicated development environment from IBM, where I will have to operate everything myself. Thanks for the replies. /quote I've started a folder I call pathetic_outsourcing_questions, all come from the MVSQuest Yahoo group, and they are all from India, people seeking free information with no idea how to go about it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I see what you (and Shane) are saying. I don't answer the really bad questions (like Steve has collected). Then again I put myself in their shoes, people just trying to do a job who are not involved in the politics of it all. It's hard not to feel for them on a human level and not want to help. I see both sides. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenneth E Tomiak Sent: 8. syyskuuta 2007 18:15 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Maybe we should not answer those questions. The outsourced work went to a place where lower wages are paid. If they can not perform the work, things will fail any maybe get insourced. Or sourced to a competent firm. By answering the question you are now a free resource to the outsourcer. Refer them to the manual and let them read. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On 8 Sep 2007 03:40:56 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lindy Mayfield) wrote: One point I'm making is that it took me years and a lot of difficult study to grow to my current level. Yet there are many people now being handed an MVS job to do and told to get to it. Do others see this as a challenge? That mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them? And how do you learn what you need to know - things that normally take experience and time - so quickly? I believe, as I always have, that the only way towards expertise in mainframes is via mentoring. A junior sysprog needs to apprentice to a senior sysprog. Any shop, regardless of location, which is not willing to pay for the senior sysprog to learn from is doomed to be substandard. There are plenty of mainframe professionals for newbies to learn from, but the companies that hire only newbies don't want to pay for that experience. I have nothing against newbies who want to learn. In fact, I love to teach. However, I am not willing to help a *company* that refuses to hire the expertise they need, again regardless of location. I see those companies as the root of the problem. So, I don't believe that mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them. I believe that they are spreading faster than people are being *allowed* to learn them, and that it is an economic problem rather than a physical one. -- I cannot receive mail at the address this was sent from. To reply directly, send to ar23hur at intergate dot com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
That is a side of things that I hadn't considered. Thanks for pointing it out. Interesting, the company that I work for would basically send me to any training I would like to take (within reason, of course), but I rarely take advantage of it, preferring to just get a book and learn on my own. But me, I'm just a geek and if I help anyone out it's person to person. At the level I'm at I don't even consider the politics of the situation. I'm glad, too. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Arthur T. Sent: 8. syyskuuta 2007 19:42 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] I have nothing against newbies who want to learn. In fact, I love to teach. However, I am not willing to help a *company* that refuses to hire the expertise they need, again regardless of location. I see those companies as the root of the problem. So, I don't believe that mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them. I believe that they are spreading faster than people are being *allowed* to learn them, and that it is an economic problem rather than a physical one. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Ed, Then he could add an irritating and stupid filter as well... Ron Steve has the right idea maybe it should be carried one step further. Just as an idea, how about if the list owner can insert some identifier to the email so that we can filter on say raw recruit in the subject line. The owner of the list can maintain a list of email address's that have sent in such messages. Just a possibility or maybe someone else can suggest another way. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I have nothing against newbies who want to learn. In fact, I love to teach. However, I am not willing to help a *company* that refuses to hire the expertise they need, again regardless of location. I see those companies as the root of the problem. This whole thread borders on the ridiculous. Any question that is answered can be construed as helping regardless of whether one likes the organization involved or not. Similarly, it is preposterous to suggest that an answered question from this forum suddenly conveys expertise. There is nothing that can be provided here that isn't already provided in numerous sources, so the notion that this is a unique source of information is ludicrous. While answering a question may shorten the path an individual needs to pursue in obtaining answer, it is certainly no replacement for the years of experience necessary to obtain any degree of expertise. There will always be a conflict when someone loses their job to someone else, and I, for one, refuse to take sides in the matter. A company that doesn't want to pay for expertise will either learn the hard way, or discover that it doesn't need the expertise. I have seen far too many marginal individuals protected simply by a long employment history. After all, I still remember a day when all contractors and outsourcers were considered evil since they threatened someone's job. Now, the focus is easier for some to rationalize since it often involves off-shoring as well. While there are certainly many problems associated with the use of cheap labor and H1B visa's, etc. the issue of answering questions certainly isn't one of them. The simple truth is that, given today's larger systems, consolidation is a realistic option and generally involves fewer people to maintain and support. If the objective is to retain a stable 9-5 workday job, then get over it, because it won't last. Most companies don't require on-site expertise on a continuous basis, so anyone with real experience, will need to leverage it by being prepared to share this knowledge with multiple organizations. In short ... don't count on retiring from the company you're working for as a systems programmer unless you're working for a vendor. So, I don't believe that mainframes are beginning to spread faster than people can properly learn them. I believe that they are spreading faster than people are being *allowed* to learn them, and that it is an economic problem rather than a physical one. As for being allowed to learn ... There has NEVER been more information available, nor more readily available than today. There is absolutely no excuse for anyone that wants to learn to suggest that they are being denied access to information. Implicit in this statement is the assumption that education is the company's responsiblity. If we are professionals then education is OUR responsibility. While it is a tremendous benefit when a company elects to pay for such education, it is by no means our right to have it at someone else's expense. A company is not responsible for enhancing our careers. If it is cheaper to educate staff rather than bring in outside expertise, then it is likely that course of action may be taken. While a classroom might be easier, and a mentor can certainly be beneficial, the suggestion of not being allowed is simply over the top. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Maybe we should not answer those questions. I suggested that a long time ago, and was run through the wringer because of it. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I agree about the amount of information available these days. It's unbelievable. When I started out an IBM manual was worth its weight in gold almost. Now the problem is wading through all the information. It can be overwhelming. Also experience (someone mentioned a mentor) is hard to find in books. To tap into others experience is why I come here. Oh and entertainment, too. And of course camaraderie, can't forget that. (-: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gerhard Adam Sent: 8. syyskuuta 2007 21:50 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] There is nothing that can be provided here that isn't already provided in numerous sources, so the notion that this is a unique source of information is ludicrous. While answering a question may shorten the path an individual needs to pursue in obtaining answer, it is certainly no replacement for the years of experience necessary to obtain any degree of expertise. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
When I started out an IBM manual was worth its weight in gold almost. Now the problem is wading through all the information. It can be overwhelming. Also experience (someone mentioned a mentor) is hard to find in books. I agree that a mentor can be a tremendous asset, however let's not overlook one other key element. You mentioned how valuable an IBM manual was in the old days, but consider that in most environments today, the system programmer has access to a sandbox system virtually 24 hours a day, both at work and at home. In the old days, the opportunity to TEST or try something out required an inordinate amount of finesse to carve out a small chunk of time. In truth, like the manuals, there has never been a higher availablility of access to test configurations than exists today, yet the majority of people i've run into rarely exploit these opportunities. Mentor or not, the majority of a system programmer's education will come from hands on, and we have significant unexploited opportunities there. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On 8 Sep 2007 11:50:26 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerhard Adam) wrote: As for being allowed to learn ... There has NEVER been more information available, nor more readily available than today. There is absolutely no excuse for anyone that wants to learn to suggest that they are being denied access to information. Implicit in this statement is the assumption that education is the company's responsiblity. If we are professionals then education is OUR responsibility. While it is a tremendous benefit when a company elects to pay for such education, it is by no means our right to have it at someone else's expense. A company is not responsible for enhancing our careers. If it is cheaper to educate staff rather than bring in outside expertise, then it is likely that course of action may be taken. While a classroom might be easier, and a mentor can certainly be beneficial, the suggestion of not being allowed is simply over the top. Your reply to my last two paragraphs significantly skews my position. Please reread my first paragraph: I believe, as I always have, that the only way towards expertise in mainframes is via mentoring. A junior sysprog needs to apprentice to a senior sysprog. I am not talking about reading, lurking or questioning online, or even classes. There are many things that can be learned from people, but that can't be taught. Constant exposure to a good senior sysprog will leave a good junior sysprog with ideas, attitudes, and competences that are not likely to arise any other way within a reasonable number of years. That is the kind of education that is the responsibility of the companies; it's almost impossible for an individual to obtain. Online, telephone, classes, and two Shares a year cannot replace it. It's the knowledge of when stay calm and when to go into a frenzy of problem determination or amelioration. It's having available that large memory of things that went wrong, without having to find them all the hard way. It's learning by example what knowledge it's important to memorize versus that which should be looked up. It's many other things, most of which I'll never be able to explain verbally, which is part of my point. A company that doesn't want to pay for expertise will either learn the hard way, or discover that it doesn't need the expertise. Any mainframe company without sufficient expertise is bad for all of us. Mainframes already get bad press. Any business failure directly relating to the mainframe will be even worse. I don't want companies to die because they did things wrong; I want them to live because they do things right. The elementary level of some of the questions showing up here and elsewhere show that they do need that expertise. A well-run company can't pause for Usenet responses *every time* something new comes up, even if it can, sometimes. I will continue to lurk, and to answer questions that both intrigue me and that I may know the answers to. And, obviously, to occasionally spout on-topic opinions. -- I cannot receive mail at the address this was sent from. To reply directly, send to ar23hur at intergate dot com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
Your reply to my last two paragraphs significantly skews my position. My comments weren't specifically directed to your statements, but rather to the general sense that seems to permeate this thread. That is the kind of education that is the responsibility of the companies; it's almost impossible for an individual to obtain. I have to disagree. Many senior systems prorammers had no mentors because there was literally no one senior enough to have had the experiences. In addition, the opportunity to learn from hands on was significantly more restricted than it is today. Any mainframe company without sufficient expertise is bad for all of us. Mainframes already get bad press. While I can appreciate the sentiment, I think you're overstating the case by a fair amount. Good press or bad press isn't likely to occur based on any of the arguments you're advancing. If people can't see the good in forty-plus years of achievement, then they're not likely to see it in a well-run data center or anything else for that matter. In addition, you're assuming that there is enough factual reporting and discrimination on the part of the reader to distinguish a mainframe outage from any other platform. Whether or not the mainframe does well, will depend far more on political decisions than technical ones, but that's a different agenda and a different issue. Once again, those organizations that will require mainframes will keep them, while those that don't will have multiple choices. Honestly, the discussion about mainframes isn't being very precise, since the majority of the people on this forum are concerned about z/OS and not mainframes. In many cases, a mainframe running another operating system would be considered as big a loss as anything. Perhaps instead of worrying so much about answering questions, we should be asking them to expand our own horizons. Adam -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] Maybe we should not answer those questions. I suggested that a long time ago, and was run through the wringer because of it. - Each of us may do as we wish. There is no guarantee from any of us to answer any particular question. Each of us participates as we wish. If anyone thinks that a question is not worth answering for whatever reason, then the easiest thing to do is what I do. Ignore it. Why bother to fan flames or pour gasoline onto them? Only once in my memory has anybody complained when then did not get an answer for people. This is a free (gratis and libre) forum. If I don't want to answer a question, I am not under any obligation to do so. If I do give an answer, everybody better understand that it is not guaranteed to be correct. I try to not give bad information out, but I sometimes do. This is not a formal support forum for anything. It is a corner pub, without the booze, chips and dart board. (so to speak - I've never been in a pub). -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
I was fortunate when I was promoted to a sysprog job back in 1978 to have a boss who was a very good mentor. Sometimes, when he wanted me to do a project that he knew I didn't have any experience in, he would call me into his office. He would show me the book I needed and the relevant sections, and give me an overview of what I needed to know. Also, everyone else in the department was very helpful when I had questions. I think that whole experience was invaluable. I remember going to the Synergistics OS Users Group about 2 weeks after I started as a sysprog. I thought they were talking a foreign language. This group met quarterly. By the 3rd of 4th meeting, things made a whole lot more sense. We used to get 50 to 60 people in per meeting in Milwaukee back in the late 70s and early 80s. By 1993, it was hard to get 10 or 15 people, and the group finally disbanded. Anyone out there remember the old group? Eric Bielefeld Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer Milwaukee, Wisconsin 414-475-7434 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:43:44 -0400, Gerhard Adam wrote: . In addition, the opportunity to learn from hands on was significantly more restricted than it is today. On the other hand, we had Program Logic Manuals and microfiche. I spent many hours reading both so that I could understand the code that I was trying to interface to. In the process I gained a lot of insight into the workings of the system. I wouldn't trade that for anything. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking]
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 6:11 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of IBM Mainframes [just thinking] On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:43:44 -0400, Gerhard Adam wrote: . In addition, the opportunity to learn from hands on was significantly more restricted than it is today. On the other hand, we had Program Logic Manuals and microfiche. I spent many hours reading both so that I could understand the code that I was trying to interface to. In the process I gained a lot of insight into the workings of the system. I wouldn't trade that for anything. -- Tom Marchant Hum, and everybody at my first job thought that I was weird for taking PLMs home to read over the weekend and on vacation. I don't miss the HIPO diagrams, however. I only looked a the fiche once. I needed to know how to convert an STCK value to printable date and time. At that time, I was fresh out of college and didn't have much assembler experience. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
