Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
> wasn't easy to port Would OOREXX 5 pose the same porting issues? > A couple of years later I ported Lua I believe that is the implementation language for much of wiki. > I don't think ooRexx supports functions as first class objects? Alas, no. Also, while OOREXX 5 has regexen, it's missing regex features that you may be used to in, e.g., Perl, Python. > What I do appreciate about Python is it's colossal standard library and > eco-system. How does it compare to CPAN? > I'm a Vim man myself when I dwell in the shell ;) Why not emacs? > I agree but the truth is they don't really need to. I work with a lot of > really smart millennials who have a deeper knowledge of MVS internals t> hen REXX and JCL. How do they get access to logic manuals and compilation listings? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 2, 2021 12:46 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF On 1/12/21 11:58 pm, René Jansen wrote: > David, > > Thank you for mentioning these plugins, I am certainly going to have a look > at them. > There are some things in your mail I feel I have to correct. > >> On 30 Nov 2021, at 22:55, David Crayford wrote: >> >> On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. >> IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick >> McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a >> bit of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're >> referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately >> I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. > IBM has abandoned ORexx; the source code was given to the Rexx Language > Association (of which I am, coincidentally, president) in 2005 already and we > have to thank Rick that he still works on it in his own time, not IBM; as do > lots of other people. It is very much alive, and at the moment better than it > ever was. I’ll leave the remark “language in decline” without comment here, > but allow me to say that if Rexx would fail at this moment, it would mark the > end of civilisation as we know it. Rexx might wel be the most under-the-radar > programming language there is, because it is very often used by systems staff > (who were never allowed to program) to save applications of otherwise > questionable architecture and implementation. Thanks Rene, I stand corrected. I appreciate you taking the effort to write such an insightful response. > > Some people from IBM have told me that there was an Object Rexx > implementation for z/OS (well, it might have been MVS/ESA or OS/390) that was > finished and ready, and was scrapped through company polittics. In this > sense, I agree with Seymour. If you look through the oorexx-dev archives you will my name attached to a z/OS port of ooRexx about 15 years ago. I got it working but it was buggy and it wasn't easy to port as the UNIX code used nefarious hacks such as using integers for pthread_t which isn't portable. Once it became obvious that integration with the MVS file system and TSO/ISPF was a very heavy lift I abandoned it. A couple of years later I ported Lua which was easy to port and inteegrates into z/OS very nicely. It supports all MVS data set access methods such as VSAM which REXX doesn't https://secure-web.cisco.com/10AufpS9N_uXofzsDcsv0gg_wU0mOHbvy_ayYdmyTXRtPkiukf7czsKVKHhvrCBhPWlTLcW3VrNieVd3vZ5u70bDXF3jh8VsBxWtM0vzxXyUtXbveLYxYCJbeMBVjexemjLppGn_u2MHMTOpIgPuHkDutCSFUCinlIL-0EwxYNoyUREu8gbk_qDpjjOqTiThj93EVRJXd7Y-TJmu3cydMN5tZEVGRtXaKLtxh9SGzgqwBSkvuaVTNGW-ggW3sVgAx3f8lbX598NKz9VTl2DLi7pkw0pMURL7kDONSGPhiQ9AYLehDZZ-_y6l5kObsgB6w_mvGg5sX86AG9xkt_ndiR0uClh93zQn6GaCRmWeFbUXTw0y0w3OIINyyKO7dJdxoEko6gcAmd4MT_vdmVueLN5XS0-BZtCRCJPM0uYS0QvYAPSyQ2jG9dnI-BCNAUNTmvuTVbcXYKuHAjSPrHDQfsA/https%3A%2F%2Flua4z.github.io%2FLua4z%2F. ooRexx is a massive code base. I didn't like the architecture very much. Everything is a C++ class, including language constructs such as If/Else etc that all use an abstract base class. The amount of dynamic dispatch going on makes it bloated and slow. Lua compiles to bytecode and uses a highly optimzed VM that is tiny and can fit in L2 cache which is why it's so fast and commonly embedded into larger applications such as video games. Lua on z/OS is an order of magnitude faster than native REXX. > As RexxLA, we did not receive this codebase; the same goes for the OS/2 > Object Rexx codebase, which apparently was encumbered copyright-wise. Where > the OREXX for MVS implementation has the status of a ru
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
On 1/12/21 11:58 pm, René Jansen wrote: David, Thank you for mentioning these plugins, I am certainly going to have a look at them. There are some things in your mail I feel I have to correct. On 30 Nov 2021, at 22:55, David Crayford wrote: On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. IBM has abandoned ORexx; the source code was given to the Rexx Language Association (of which I am, coincidentally, president) in 2005 already and we have to thank Rick that he still works on it in his own time, not IBM; as do lots of other people. It is very much alive, and at the moment better than it ever was. I’ll leave the remark “language in decline” without comment here, but allow me to say that if Rexx would fail at this moment, it would mark the end of civilisation as we know it. Rexx might wel be the most under-the-radar programming language there is, because it is very often used by systems staff (who were never allowed to program) to save applications of otherwise questionable architecture and implementation. Thanks Rene, I stand corrected. I appreciate you taking the effort to write such an insightful response. Some people from IBM have told me that there was an Object Rexx implementation for z/OS (well, it might have been MVS/ESA or OS/390) that was finished and ready, and was scrapped through company polittics. In this sense, I agree with Seymour. If you look through the oorexx-dev archives you will my name attached to a z/OS port of ooRexx about 15 years ago. I got it working but it was buggy and it wasn't easy to port as the UNIX code used nefarious hacks such as using integers for pthread_t which isn't portable. Once it became obvious that integration with the MVS file system and TSO/ISPF was a very heavy lift I abandoned it. A couple of years later I ported Lua which was easy to port and inteegrates into z/OS very nicely. It supports all MVS data set access methods such as VSAM which REXX doesn't https://lua4z.github.io/Lua4z/. ooRexx is a massive code base. I didn't like the architecture very much. Everything is a C++ class, including language constructs such as If/Else etc that all use an abstract base class. The amount of dynamic dispatch going on makes it bloated and slow. Lua compiles to bytecode and uses a highly optimzed VM that is tiny and can fit in L2 cache which is why it's so fast and commonly embedded into larger applications such as video games. Lua on z/OS is an order of magnitude faster than native REXX. As RexxLA, we did not receive this codebase; the same goes for the OS/2 Object Rexx codebase, which apparently was encumbered copyright-wise. Where the OREXX for MVS implementation has the status of a rumour, the mishandling of the Linux/Windows/AIX codebase (which would be open sourced, then not, then ‘free’ for Linux, cheap for Windows and expensive for the ’toolset’ - and some decade later open sourced again (for which we are grateful, of course, because even open sourcing is costly business) is public knowledge and can be found on the net. For this list, it would go too far to go into the ‘LotusScript’ and ‘DataBasic’ circumstances that probably influenced these decisions. Rexx in decline? Not really - who would be making Microsoft Visual whatever extensions for it if that were true. It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. I have some trouble to see Go and Python as more modern languages. A recent book tells me there are ‘100 Go Mistakes to Avoid’ - I think I am going to avoid only one. Python bases structure on indentation - I have trouble calling that modern, it actually reminds me of A and B margins and BAL sheets. And lots of ugly double underscores, if I may say. It's all subjective. I could pick holes in any language. I much prefer languages that support anonymous functions to Pythons puny lambda syntax. I don't think ooRexx supports functions as first class objects? What I do appreciate about Python is it's colossal standard library and eco-system. The LLVM for z/OS port actually is the best news there is here: it means we can base an
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
https://github.com/Lua4z/Lua4z On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 11:00 PM Bob Bridges wrote: > > I've heard of LUA, but only in connection to user-built mods for Factorio, a > game I'm a big fan of on Steam. Not being terribly interested in writing > mods, I haven't thought very seriously about learning it. But I would not > have expected to associate Factorio and Steam with the mainframe. > > You're saying I can write Python and Java programs to run in TSO? I never > mind learning a new language, but where would I find them? > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to unlearn > old falsehoods. -Lazarus Long */ > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Farley, Peter x23353 > Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 12:52 > > Doesn't lua also have object-oriented syntax and semantics? I know there is > a z/OS lua port available. > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Pew, Curtis G > Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 12:46 PM > > Java is object-oriented, and Python supports object-oriented programming. > > --- On Dec 1, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > > Is there ~any~ object-oriented interpreter on the mainframe? > > Maybe it's time I learned a new language. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
On Dec 1, 2021, at 4:59 PM, Bob Bridges wrote: > > You're saying I can write Python and Java programs to run in TSO? I never > mind learning a new language, but where would I find them? I mostly run Python in OMVS, but have also done it in batch. It’s not installed by default; you’ll need to get it from IBM or Rocket. I’ve never done Java on z/OS, but lots of people have. -- Pew, Curtis G curtis@austin.utexas.edu -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
I've heard of LUA, but only in connection to user-built mods for Factorio, a game I'm a big fan of on Steam. Not being terribly interested in writing mods, I haven't thought very seriously about learning it. But I would not have expected to associate Factorio and Steam with the mainframe. You're saying I can write Python and Java programs to run in TSO? I never mind learning a new language, but where would I find them? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to unlearn old falsehoods. -Lazarus Long */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Farley, Peter x23353 Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 12:52 Doesn't lua also have object-oriented syntax and semantics? I know there is a z/OS lua port available. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pew, Curtis G Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 12:46 PM Java is object-oriented, and Python supports object-oriented programming. --- On Dec 1, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > Is there ~any~ object-oriented interpreter on the mainframe? > Maybe it's time I learned a new language. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
There are certainly compilers for object-oriented languages for z/OS. Python is arguably object oriented, and Java certainly is. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 12:36 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF I'm coming late to this thread. I never knew that ooREXX was from IBM, and it never occurred it to me to wonder whether it might be ported to TSO. So this question: Is there ~any~ object-oriented interpreter on the mainframe? Maybe it's time I learned a new language. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* It's never good news when a bunch of people learn the name of a boat. -Philip Bump @pbump */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 12:01 IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. As we are discussing z/OSMF and REXX I thought I would mention the Z Open Editor plugin [1] for the VS Code editor. This includes the REXX LSP plugin [2] written by Broadcom which supports auto-completion, syntax checking as you type and symbol outlines. The COBOL and HLASM plugins are even better. It uses the Zowe CLI [3] to interact with the z/OSMF REST APIs for the Zowe System explorer [4]. It wasn't that long ago that you would have to pay for the likes or RDz to get this functionality but now it's free and uses cutting edge tools. The Zowe CLI does not have a dependency on Zowe being installed on the back-end. It's a client API and the only requirement is Node.js/NPM on your PC. The salient point is that z/OSMF is not just for just for GUI applications. The APIs are being used to build strategic eco-systems to modernize z/OS for new hires that didn't grow up using TSO/ISPF. Of course, this new tooling is mainly targeted at the new generation of mainframers and not at folks who don't like learning curves. But there is a lot of value to be had if you don't mind trying new things. The Zowe explorer VS Code extension has 46K downloads so it's quite popular. Although when you compare that to 46M for Python [5] you can appreciate why IBM ported Python to z/OS :) Yes, IBM is contributing to OOREXX, and I use it on Linux, but IBM is not upgrading REXX in TSO to OOREXX. In fact, IBM is not even upgrading REXX in TSO to the level of the ANSI standard. Yes, IBM has ported some, but not all, of the newer languages, and that is a good thing. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2021 9:55 PM --- On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Depending on how you define mainframe and interpreter, .NET has been or is being ported to Linux on Z, and .NET kinda sorta interprets C#. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 9:36 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF I'm coming late to this thread. I never knew that ooREXX was from IBM, and it never occurred it to me to wonder whether it might be ported to TSO. So this question: Is there ~any~ object-oriented interpreter on the mainframe? Maybe it's time I learned a new language. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* It's never good news when a bunch of people learn the name of a boat. -Philip Bump @pbump */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 12:01 IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. As we are discussing z/OSMF and REXX I thought I would mention the Z Open Editor plugin [1] for the VS Code editor. This includes the REXX LSP plugin [2] written by Broadcom which supports auto-completion, syntax checking as you type and symbol outlines. The COBOL and HLASM plugins are even better. It uses the Zowe CLI [3] to interact with the z/OSMF REST APIs for the Zowe System explorer [4]. It wasn't that long ago that you would have to pay for the likes or RDz to get this functionality but now it's free and uses cutting edge tools. The Zowe CLI does not have a dependency on Zowe being installed on the back-end. It's a client API and the only requirement is Node.js/NPM on your PC. The salient point is that z/OSMF is not just for just for GUI applications. The APIs are being used to build strategic eco-systems to modernize z/OS for new hires that didn't grow up using TSO/ISPF. Of course, this new tooling is mainly targeted at the new generation of mainframers and not at folks who don't like learning curves. But there is a lot of value to be had if you don't mind trying new things. The Zowe explorer VS Code extension has 46K downloads so it's quite popular. Although when you compare that to 46M for Python [5] you can appreciate why IBM ported Python to z/OS :) Yes, IBM is contributing to OOREXX, and I use it on Linux, but IBM is not upgrading REXX in TSO to OOREXX. In fact, IBM is not even upgrading REXX in TSO to the level of the ANSI standard. Yes, IBM has ported some, but not all, of the newer languages, and that is a good thing. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2021 9:55 PM --- On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
My understanding is that IBM release the entire codebase for OREXX, but not the source code of the SOM and WPS classes. WRT modern languages, I don't know of anything that has an equivalent to REXX environments; that is, a standardized interface to allow an application to support scripting including application-specific functions and variables. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 10:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF David, Thank you for mentioning these plugins, I am certainly going to have a look at them. There are some things in your mail I feel I have to correct. > On 30 Nov 2021, at 22:55, David Crayford wrote: > > On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. > > IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick > McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit > of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're > referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately > I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. IBM has abandoned ORexx; the source code was given to the Rexx Language Association (of which I am, coincidentally, president) in 2005 already and we have to thank Rick that he still works on it in his own time, not IBM; as do lots of other people. It is very much alive, and at the moment better than it ever was. I’ll leave the remark “language in decline” without comment here, but allow me to say that if Rexx would fail at this moment, it would mark the end of civilisation as we know it. Rexx might wel be the most under-the-radar programming language there is, because it is very often used by systems staff (who were never allowed to program) to save applications of otherwise questionable architecture and implementation. Some people from IBM have told me that there was an Object Rexx implementation for z/OS (well, it might have been MVS/ESA or OS/390) that was finished and ready, and was scrapped through company polittics. In this sense, I agree with Seymour. As RexxLA, we did not receive this codebase; the same goes for the OS/2 Object Rexx codebase, which apparently was encumbered copyright-wise. Where the OREXX for MVS implementation has the status of a rumour, the mishandling of the Linux/Windows/AIX codebase (which would be open sourced, then not, then ‘free’ for Linux, cheap for Windows and expensive for the ’toolset’ - and some decade later open sourced again (for which we are grateful, of course, because even open sourcing is costly business) is public knowledge and can be found on the net. For this list, it would go too far to go into the ‘LotusScript’ and ‘DataBasic’ circumstances that probably influenced these decisions. Rexx in decline? Not really - who would be making Microsoft Visual whatever extensions for it if that were true. > It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and > runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's > written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang > LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a > plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a > similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and > bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. > I have some trouble to see Go and Python as more modern languages. A recent book tells me there are ‘100 Go Mistakes to Avoid’ - I think I am going to avoid only one. Python bases structure on indentation - I have trouble calling that modern, it actually reminds me of A and B margins and BAL sheets. And lots of ugly double underscores, if I may say. The LLVM for z/OS port actually is the best news there is here: it means we can base an Object Rexx version on that in a number of years from now. Also, the mainframe has gotten so fast that you probably can write an ooRexx in Classic Rexx for it without seeing slowdown. > As we are discussing z/OSMF and REXX I thought I would mention the Z Open > Editor plugin [1] for the VS Code editor. This includes the REXX LSP plugin > [2] written by Broadcom which supports auto-completion, syntax checking as > you type and symbol outlines. That is great news. Although I use ISPF, LEXX or XEDIT for serious work, and Emacs for all other platforms, I would love to see what they made, especially for an MS platform, the company that was very hostile to REXX in the OS/2 days - remember it initially was only in IBM’s OS/2 EE (Extended Edition). > > Of course,
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Doesn't lua also have object-oriented syntax and semantics? I know there is a z/OS lua port available. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pew, Curtis G Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 12:46 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL On Dec 1, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > > Is there ~any~ object-oriented interpreter on the mainframe? > Maybe it's time I learned a new language. Java is object-oriented, and Python supports object-oriented programming. -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
On Dec 1, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > > Is there ~any~ object-oriented interpreter on the mainframe? > Maybe it's time I learned a new language. Java is object-oriented, and Python supports object-oriented programming. -- Pew, Curtis G curtis@austin.utexas.edu -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
I'm coming late to this thread. I never knew that ooREXX was from IBM, and it never occurred it to me to wonder whether it might be ported to TSO. So this question: Is there ~any~ object-oriented interpreter on the mainframe? Maybe it's time I learned a new language. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* It's never good news when a bunch of people learn the name of a boat. -Philip Bump @pbump */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 12:01 IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. As we are discussing z/OSMF and REXX I thought I would mention the Z Open Editor plugin [1] for the VS Code editor. This includes the REXX LSP plugin [2] written by Broadcom which supports auto-completion, syntax checking as you type and symbol outlines. The COBOL and HLASM plugins are even better. It uses the Zowe CLI [3] to interact with the z/OSMF REST APIs for the Zowe System explorer [4]. It wasn't that long ago that you would have to pay for the likes or RDz to get this functionality but now it's free and uses cutting edge tools. The Zowe CLI does not have a dependency on Zowe being installed on the back-end. It's a client API and the only requirement is Node.js/NPM on your PC. The salient point is that z/OSMF is not just for just for GUI applications. The APIs are being used to build strategic eco-systems to modernize z/OS for new hires that didn't grow up using TSO/ISPF. Of course, this new tooling is mainly targeted at the new generation of mainframers and not at folks who don't like learning curves. But there is a lot of value to be had if you don't mind trying new things. The Zowe explorer VS Code extension has 46K downloads so it's quite popular. Although when you compare that to 46M for Python [5] you can appreciate why IBM ported Python to z/OS :) Yes, IBM is contributing to OOREXX, and I use it on Linux, but IBM is not upgrading REXX in TSO to OOREXX. In fact, IBM is not even upgrading REXX in TSO to the level of the ANSI standard. Yes, IBM has ported some, but not all, of the newer languages, and that is a good thing. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2021 9:55 PM --- On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Yes, IBM is contributing to OOREXX, and I use it on Linux, but IBM is not upgrading REXX in TSO to OOREXX. In fact, IBM is not even upgrading REXX in TSO to the level of the ANSI standard. Yes, IBM has ported some, but not all, of the newer languages, and that is a good thing. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2021 9:55 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. As we are discussing z/OSMF and REXX I thought I would mention the Z Open Editor plugin [1] for the VS Code editor. This includes the REXX LSP plugin [2] written by Broadcom which supports auto-completion, syntax checking as you type and symbol outlines. The COBOL and HLASM plugins are even better. It uses the Zowe CLI [3] to interact with the z/OSMF REST APIs for the Zowe System explorer [4]. It wasn't that long ago that you would have to pay for the likes or RDz to get this functionality but now it's free and uses cutting edge tools. The Zowe CLI does not have a dependency on Zowe being installed on the back-end. It's a client API and the only requirement is Node.js/NPM on your PC. The salient point is that z/OSMF is not just for just for GUI applications. The APIs are being used to build strategic eco-systems to modernize z/OS for new hires that didn't grow up using TSO/ISPF. Of course, this new tooling is mainly targeted at the new generation of mainframers and not at folks who don't like learning curves. But there is a lot of value to be had if you don't mind trying new things. The Zowe explorer VS Code extension has 46K downloads so it's quite popular. Although when you compare that to 46M for Python [5] you can appreciate why IBM ported Python to z/OS :) [1] https://secure-web.cisco.com/1zXRt7u3qkLnz2qeKuEJzwugTua8JyAoQNqVSwNpEzAKU5I9UaFTsSIKGXxdp8O9muT9XtFC4g4sulJKiFhWgsD4IKamBn35_onR6nLhW3VNRFGENriMGFh1zCwyS60Lt56LpxBbLHqKdJBxsfC8bxlyBCDYMwWnsoVGZ_p0nYY2gVepZl4XAy0whtx2E82bYfVy1k-WzcIDPcABe86oZ2g7Z-jw3Tw6c6ByYzv-EWoYEHszBXWiGiCjap64CCw7PzirQxYYE18fZnLDyIXPgCBjV0nnvD8cUMTbRY2Dy_FTXDJzIGqm7ckcKYE2YP51OQkayFcj1REMRsW1YqhNmqY1_67ExymfeA5rL0dWcsCCcROY2XE3Pyxm9RaSOSiq30h3l52Pk18jwwFiKlTJ-yy_T3OH1B3IbuyvTQJ8sAySdgDdjKOgkHqf720w-sjxw/https%3A%2F%2Fmarketplace.visualstudio.com%2Fitems%3FitemName%3DIBM.zopeneditor [2] https://secure-web.cisco.com/18yyw2rprscu5cQjed6Wi98-ZgXM0V01VE9pjoF9hpIIpKxebUmktFGBv1y3ug1P8-QU-5nA0cJuXvT4Eq7EqkoEItMM-nME0q9SizaW4A2JbVEypjn82eXrAKiTIyvKpwlyVstN2VI8eP06hKVmNRB3fmt96pg84P4m5babcWEIWo__2yjPYA-3R0_9xfz1bwZ2YjJSFSHdmIGUNbiG5wMNyW34yYwJHSA9Sa0r19guEXTE6WwIC0qzBPCS_LGQB-VvNDJaj_ZMLxMCaDm9VoZblfYGBo7jIcx8ltGGeugn0cDLTWig3rQQ7Zlx83RNdlN9cwQFlbU6XFb2eizuqf3AmYdGrafrEzoq9p6htUfRmFhukf0ExIa8i7df390IBmmXr99TA0Kl-EnHsgx8V2cV6PDpI66zH651-B1Z9VNvpUCSDu1-7MnN6eOIniZ7M/https%3A%2F%2Fmarketplace.visualstudio.com%2Fitems%3FitemName%3DbroadcomMFD.lsp-for-rexx [3] https://secure-web.cisco.com/1gSG2evK9i1oEkT-JBkTDfhbZnuEYCkw4yGj2BSiLt08cZFMgbkGTsmOuuJ0z9F4Db4yokx9oJ6YvdtXh8rRcJ9RUB3CR_Q6mjeobDkWt1R830LSlxOnX8_zrjZdHgTbR5UIJCQ0RCR2h340ulKgkBY_03HiDt-UR7iAxfdQPLepD_Y6v-ECKUleCOMQFnTQnBhlSAI1oLG9FQV33e4wK9NTlfB4N8coethSIHQW2TYybr5upLOj9SQkxQIzcKUg2J6rQxlE8HWfuN789dP_Wo_wPm8kvTFxQgOhWfgkJT-G7HJEBGe_AAOtNPM6DMCg-NGmlx-vBJXh_xZeLjJbHek-_Zqj45bnNdRjJkIYrnWct25VEf0llhuVTM-lKteTabzkPgtqHHQFD2qzUcUhYufCIpChccM800RQJfpa_6w7VvU8pTUzaVUrQq4rEhsHn4U8W1vdp-fxNyauyn2nfdQ/https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.zowe.org%2Fstable%2Fuser-guide%2Finstall-overview [4] https://secure-web.cisco.com/1D6J9oE2burRn4talL93uUMNh9bUFC3djkvMF-YqChPkwlJj8Cr4o2_dk-bcHzaLum0_x6RiHRUFVRdCc9mAHs9g4z4a7Xz87uyD8i2WJPFM5Rlbh-L_CcGqoyh7WkvVzwBqcOIMA9zZym2FoEa6EsSCxmT-pOUwlpTsgyT7GOeXi4au8apAM0ZT7CZI8yNHucKQQ1xV2CKMTXMB-66f6eojIcpzqyYODEbNn85fOLWvQ4_vEFjdo1svFardNzdGL22RepTw_ZBtqea5H9JicRtuKX1iaoWUhdRs
Re: Mainframe Language Support for VS Code (Was RE: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF)
Doing mobile development in C# and Xamarin, which requires VS 2019. What are "symbol outlines"? > Broadcom provide the plugins using LSP (language server protocol) that > provides the context assist etc. It would be useless without it. Why would I care about the underlying methodology as opposed to caring about the functionality? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 7:44 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe Language Support for VS Code (Was RE: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF) On 1/12/21 11:00 pm, Charles Mills wrote: > David, thanks, nice stuff. > > I downloaded an installed the Z plugin for VS. Took about 3 minutes start to > finish. (It helped that I already had VS Code -- which is free, by the way.) > I would rather it was for VS 2019, which I use a lot, but whatever. The > auto-complete and syntax-highlighting are nice. I've been using Notepad++, > which does the same thing, but this looks a little slicker. Not sure which I > will use going forward. For C/C++ it uses intellitense which should be equivilent > Not sure what the benefit of the Broadcom plug-in is over the IBM plug-in. > Looks like it suggests Rexx keywords in all upper case, which is not my > coding style. What are "symbol outlines"? Broadcom provide the plugins using LSP (language server protocol) that provides the context assist etc. It would be useless without it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
David, Thank you for mentioning these plugins, I am certainly going to have a look at them. There are some things in your mail I feel I have to correct. > On 30 Nov 2021, at 22:55, David Crayford wrote: > > On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. > > IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick > McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit > of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're > referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately > I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. IBM has abandoned ORexx; the source code was given to the Rexx Language Association (of which I am, coincidentally, president) in 2005 already and we have to thank Rick that he still works on it in his own time, not IBM; as do lots of other people. It is very much alive, and at the moment better than it ever was. I’ll leave the remark “language in decline” without comment here, but allow me to say that if Rexx would fail at this moment, it would mark the end of civilisation as we know it. Rexx might wel be the most under-the-radar programming language there is, because it is very often used by systems staff (who were never allowed to program) to save applications of otherwise questionable architecture and implementation. Some people from IBM have told me that there was an Object Rexx implementation for z/OS (well, it might have been MVS/ESA or OS/390) that was finished and ready, and was scrapped through company polittics. In this sense, I agree with Seymour. As RexxLA, we did not receive this codebase; the same goes for the OS/2 Object Rexx codebase, which apparently was encumbered copyright-wise. Where the OREXX for MVS implementation has the status of a rumour, the mishandling of the Linux/Windows/AIX codebase (which would be open sourced, then not, then ‘free’ for Linux, cheap for Windows and expensive for the ’toolset’ - and some decade later open sourced again (for which we are grateful, of course, because even open sourcing is costly business) is public knowledge and can be found on the net. For this list, it would go too far to go into the ‘LotusScript’ and ‘DataBasic’ circumstances that probably influenced these decisions. Rexx in decline? Not really - who would be making Microsoft Visual whatever extensions for it if that were true. > It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and > runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's > written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang > LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a > plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a > similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and > bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. > I have some trouble to see Go and Python as more modern languages. A recent book tells me there are ‘100 Go Mistakes to Avoid’ - I think I am going to avoid only one. Python bases structure on indentation - I have trouble calling that modern, it actually reminds me of A and B margins and BAL sheets. And lots of ugly double underscores, if I may say. The LLVM for z/OS port actually is the best news there is here: it means we can base an Object Rexx version on that in a number of years from now. Also, the mainframe has gotten so fast that you probably can write an ooRexx in Classic Rexx for it without seeing slowdown. > As we are discussing z/OSMF and REXX I thought I would mention the Z Open > Editor plugin [1] for the VS Code editor. This includes the REXX LSP plugin > [2] written by Broadcom which supports auto-completion, syntax checking as > you type and symbol outlines. That is great news. Although I use ISPF, LEXX or XEDIT for serious work, and Emacs for all other platforms, I would love to see what they made, especially for an MS platform, the company that was very hostile to REXX in the OS/2 days - remember it initially was only in IBM’s OS/2 EE (Extended Edition). > > Of course, this new tooling is mainly targeted at the new generation of > mainframers and not at folks who don't like learning curves. But there is a > lot of value to be had if you don't mind trying new things. The Zowe explorer > VS Code extension has 46K downloads so it's quite popular. Although when you > compare that to 46M for Python [5] you can appreciate why IBM ported Python > to z/OS :) > I - personally - feel that people would be missing out when they are not learning ISPF and JCL (and REXX!) like we did. If I was starting out in this field, I’d rather learn something that is a nice niche instead of the standard fare that millions of young people must have in their repertoire. Which mostly lasts the lifetime of a JavaScript framework. Also, with
Re: Mainframe Language Support for VS Code (Was RE: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF)
On 1/12/21 11:00 pm, Charles Mills wrote: David, thanks, nice stuff. I downloaded an installed the Z plugin for VS. Took about 3 minutes start to finish. (It helped that I already had VS Code -- which is free, by the way.) I would rather it was for VS 2019, which I use a lot, but whatever. The auto-complete and syntax-highlighting are nice. I've been using Notepad++, which does the same thing, but this looks a little slicker. Not sure which I will use going forward. For C/C++ it uses intellitense which should be equivilent Not sure what the benefit of the Broadcom plug-in is over the IBM plug-in. Looks like it suggests Rexx keywords in all upper case, which is not my coding style. What are "symbol outlines"? Broadcom provide the plugins using LSP (language server protocol) that provides the context assist etc. It would be useless without it. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2021 6:56 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. As we are discussing z/OSMF and REXX I thought I would mention the Z Open Editor plugin [1] for the VS Code editor. This includes the REXX LSP plugin [2] written by Broadcom which supports auto-completion, syntax checking as you type and symbol outlines. The COBOL and HLASM plugins are even better. It uses the Zowe CLI [3] to interact with the z/OSMF REST APIs for the Zowe System explorer [4]. It wasn't that long ago that you would have to pay for the likes or RDz to get this functionality but now it's free and uses cutting edge tools. The Zowe CLI does not have a dependency on Zowe being installed on the back-end. It's a client API and the only requirement is Node.js/NPM on your PC. The salient point is that z/OSMF is not just for just for GUI applications. The APIs are being used to build strategic eco-systems to modernize z/OS for new hires that didn't grow up using TSO/ISPF. Of course, this new tooling is mainly targeted at the new generation of mainframers and not at folks who don't like learning curves. But there is a lot of value to be had if you don't mind trying new things. The Zowe explorer VS Code extension has 46K downloads so it's quite popular. Although when you compare that to 46M for Python [5] you can appreciate why IBM ported Python to z/OS :) [1] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=IBM.zopeneditor [2] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=broadcomMFD.lsp-for-rexx [3] https://docs.zowe.org/stable/user-guide/install-overview [4] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Zowe.vscode-extension-for-zowe [5] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-python.python -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Mainframe Language Support for VS Code (Was RE: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF)
David, thanks, nice stuff. I downloaded an installed the Z plugin for VS. Took about 3 minutes start to finish. (It helped that I already had VS Code -- which is free, by the way.) I would rather it was for VS 2019, which I use a lot, but whatever. The auto-complete and syntax-highlighting are nice. I've been using Notepad++, which does the same thing, but this looks a little slicker. Not sure which I will use going forward. Not sure what the benefit of the Broadcom plug-in is over the IBM plug-in. Looks like it suggests Rexx keywords in all upper case, which is not my coding style. What are "symbol outlines"? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2021 6:56 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. As we are discussing z/OSMF and REXX I thought I would mention the Z Open Editor plugin [1] for the VS Code editor. This includes the REXX LSP plugin [2] written by Broadcom which supports auto-completion, syntax checking as you type and symbol outlines. The COBOL and HLASM plugins are even better. It uses the Zowe CLI [3] to interact with the z/OSMF REST APIs for the Zowe System explorer [4]. It wasn't that long ago that you would have to pay for the likes or RDz to get this functionality but now it's free and uses cutting edge tools. The Zowe CLI does not have a dependency on Zowe being installed on the back-end. It's a client API and the only requirement is Node.js/NPM on your PC. The salient point is that z/OSMF is not just for just for GUI applications. The APIs are being used to build strategic eco-systems to modernize z/OS for new hires that didn't grow up using TSO/ISPF. Of course, this new tooling is mainly targeted at the new generation of mainframers and not at folks who don't like learning curves. But there is a lot of value to be had if you don't mind trying new things. The Zowe explorer VS Code extension has 46K downloads so it's quite popular. Although when you compare that to 46M for Python [5] you can appreciate why IBM ported Python to z/OS :) [1] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=IBM.zopeneditor [2] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=broadcomMFD.lsp-for-rexx [3] https://docs.zowe.org/stable/user-guide/install-overview [4] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Zowe.vscode-extension-for-zowe [5] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-python.python -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Classification: Confidential This whole discussion reminds me of the C-19 vaccine mandate. Yu Vill get da (z/OSMF) vaccine or else! -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2021 8:56 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.] On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. As we are discussing z/OSMF and REXX I thought I would mention the Z Open Editor plugin [1] for the VS Code editor. This includes the REXX LSP plugin [2] written by Broadcom which supports auto-completion, syntax checking as you type and symbol outlines. The COBOL and HLASM plugins are even better. It uses the Zowe CLI [3] to interact with the z/OSMF REST APIs for the Zowe System explorer [4]. It wasn't that long ago that you would have to pay for the likes or RDz to get this functionality but now it's free and uses cutting edge tools. The Zowe CLI does not have a dependency on Zowe being installed on the back-end. It's a client API and the only requirement is Node.js/NPM on your PC. The salient point is that z/OSMF is not just for just for GUI applications. The APIs are being used to build strategic eco-systems to modernize z/OS for new hires that didn't grow up using TSO/ISPF. Of course, this new tooling is mainly targeted at the new generation of mainframers and not at folks who don't like learning curves. But there is a lot of value to be had if you don't mind trying new things. The Zowe explorer VS Code extension has 46K downloads so it's quite popular. Although when you compare that to 46M for Python [5] you can appreciate why IBM ported Python to z/OS :) [1] https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmarketplace.visualstudio.com%2Fitems%3FitemName%3DIBM.zopeneditordata=04%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C7122ca5145e54040b97108d9b4762318%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C637739241771424648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sdata=p33q93qroInkUtbu3SYPPbRb35PIdfEIV53DapPu4FU%3Dreserved=0 [2] https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmarketplace.visualstudio.com%2Fitems%3FitemName%3DbroadcomMFD.lsp-for-rexxdata=04%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C7122ca5145e54040b97108d9b4762318%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C637739241771424648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sdata=36UHtfSHLu2A0%2FJVz0xUdcvbI4o%2BmrzdL2vj4FaN7eA%3Dreserved=0 [3] https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.zowe.org%2Fstable%2Fuser-guide%2Finstall-overviewdata=04%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C7122ca5145e54040b97108d9b4762318%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C637739241771424648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sdata=dUomQBe0gyKBakDyv6csQi6Fm24XYUmn4Ic%2FvaMAwKo%3Dreserved=0 [4] https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmarketplace.visualstudio.com%2Fitems%3FitemName%3DZowe.vscode-extension-for-zowedata=04%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C7122ca5145e54040b97108d9b4762318%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C637739241771424648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sdata=7hTDDeq7F5j6e0pvR%2F%2Bc0C6jCnpRMpr%2BUPZzAlOepuk%3Dreserved=0 [5] https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmarketplace.visualstudio.com%2Fitems%3FitemName%3Dms-python.pythondata=04%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C7122ca5145e54040b97108d9b4762318%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C637739241771424648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sd
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
On 1/12/21 10:03 am, Tom Longfellow wrote: Just to clarify on my earlier comments. The wealth of choices for installations is not necessarily 'bad' just potentially loaded with dead ends. I think we have all seen big 'initiatives' from IBM that were later 'withdrawn from marketing' because they just never caught on. You don't have much choice for zCX. It's Docker in the host environment and then whatever you choose for the guest. I heard a rumor that Kubernetes may be coming in future. In that case you won't need to worry about docker, package managers etc. You will just install an entire stack at the versions you require. Updates are managed and if they fail to install will be rolled back with no loss of service. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
On 1/12/21 1:55 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. IBM certainly haven't abandoned ooRexx. It's my understanding that Rick McGuire works on it almost full time. The mailing lists still get quite a bit of traffic and the Github repo shows recent commit activity. If you're referring the fact that ooRexx hasn't been ported to z/OS then unfortunately I don't see IBM committing resources to a language in decline. It makes much more sense to port modern languages like Go, Python and runtimes like Node.js. Docker is going to be important for z/OS and it's written in Go so it's a no-brainer. We've been beta testing IBMs new clang LLVM z/OS port which is exciting in the fact that LLVM can be used to build a plethora of different languages. I particularly like Julia which has a similar syntax to Lua but can be strongly typed and is compiled and bench-tests show it runs at near C speeds. As we are discussing z/OSMF and REXX I thought I would mention the Z Open Editor plugin [1] for the VS Code editor. This includes the REXX LSP plugin [2] written by Broadcom which supports auto-completion, syntax checking as you type and symbol outlines. The COBOL and HLASM plugins are even better. It uses the Zowe CLI [3] to interact with the z/OSMF REST APIs for the Zowe System explorer [4]. It wasn't that long ago that you would have to pay for the likes or RDz to get this functionality but now it's free and uses cutting edge tools. The Zowe CLI does not have a dependency on Zowe being installed on the back-end. It's a client API and the only requirement is Node.js/NPM on your PC. The salient point is that z/OSMF is not just for just for GUI applications. The APIs are being used to build strategic eco-systems to modernize z/OS for new hires that didn't grow up using TSO/ISPF. Of course, this new tooling is mainly targeted at the new generation of mainframers and not at folks who don't like learning curves. But there is a lot of value to be had if you don't mind trying new things. The Zowe explorer VS Code extension has 46K downloads so it's quite popular. Although when you compare that to 46M for Python [5] you can appreciate why IBM ported Python to z/OS :) [1] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=IBM.zopeneditor [2] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=broadcomMFD.lsp-for-rexx [3] https://docs.zowe.org/stable/user-guide/install-overview [4] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Zowe.vscode-extension-for-zowe [5] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-python.python -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Just to clarify on my earlier comments. The wealth of choices for installations is not necessarily 'bad' just potentially loaded with dead ends. I think we have all seen big 'initiatives' from IBM that were later 'withdrawn from marketing' because they just never caught on. All the vendors do it. And each vendor has one or more set of development tools that will dovetail with one set of packaging tools. Forcing the poor guys like us to support many 'installers'. Just think about what is possible in the current world. A hardware Partition (z15) supporting one or more partitions (z/VM, Native Linux, z/OS)... With those partitions subdivided further with Docker, under some linux supporting packages that can be Java apps. or written in Python ad infinitum. Even if all the nesting dolls have 95% reliability, a 5 deep nest would have a theoretical reliabilty below 80%. Now the eventual vendor mergers happen. The new consolidated company will pick winner and loser technologies. And if we went through all the training and earned all of our experience we could end up back at square one with our 'outdated' knowledge. We can join the unemployment line with the Redbooks division of IBM. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Classification: Confidential I concur, provided the new tools can actually do the job. IBM's recent track record in this and other areas has not been stellar (more like abysmal). -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2021 11:56 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.] While z/OSMF may be a step backward in some regards, that does not mean that all new tools are bad. I for one am not about to complain that IMAPTFLE is gone; SMP is far better. Tools like Docker are already part of the ecosystem, and it behooves IBM to acknowledge them. I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3data=04%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C8dedf4b253b7420cb27808d9b42ab1c6%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C637738917748898389%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000sdata=BMhmuuxmxfLQJcWWfI%2BGrgAyHDQtqsLBX3yZh5S1EIg%3Dreserved=0 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Longfellow [03e29b607131-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 9:00 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF The replies to my recent post are adding to my arguments. Adding dozens of new ways to get something to do actual work does not get final goals done faster. The actual work that the users (remember them) need do not care how cleverly the software is installed. They just want it now (or yesterday) . Sooner or later the rubber has to meet the road. Docker, noDocker, Anaconda, miniconda, rpm, and all the many items seen in the replies just look to me like a series of new learning curves that stand between and getting the job done. It becomes a learning/training nightmare when you are getting paid for results. I am reminded of reading job openings where they were looking for 10 years of experience in a software that has only been available for 2 years.If you really wanted the job you had to find a polite way to point out their lack of knowledge. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ::DISCLAIMER:: The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses in transmission. The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and / or publication of this message without the prior written consent of authorized representative of HCL is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender immediately. Before opening any email and/or attachments, please check them for viruses and other defects. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
While z/OSMF may be a step backward in some regards, that does not mean that all new tools are bad. I for one am not about to complain that IMAPTFLE is gone; SMP is far better. Tools like Docker are already part of the ecosystem, and it behooves IBM to acknowledge them. I just wish that they would acknowledge their abandoned child OREXX. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Longfellow [03e29b607131-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 9:00 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF The replies to my recent post are adding to my arguments. Adding dozens of new ways to get something to do actual work does not get final goals done faster. The actual work that the users (remember them) need do not care how cleverly the software is installed. They just want it now (or yesterday) . Sooner or later the rubber has to meet the road. Docker, noDocker, Anaconda, miniconda, rpm, and all the many items seen in the replies just look to me like a series of new learning curves that stand between and getting the job done. It becomes a learning/training nightmare when you are getting paid for results. I am reminded of reading job openings where they were looking for 10 years of experience in a software that has only been available for 2 years.If you really wanted the job you had to find a polite way to point out their lack of knowledge. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
The replies to my recent post are adding to my arguments. Adding dozens of new ways to get something to do actual work does not get final goals done faster. The actual work that the users (remember them) need do not care how cleverly the software is installed. They just want it now (or yesterday) . Sooner or later the rubber has to meet the road. Docker, noDocker, Anaconda, miniconda, rpm, and all the many items seen in the replies just look to me like a series of new learning curves that stand between and getting the job done. It becomes a learning/training nightmare when you are getting paid for results. I am reminded of reading job openings where they were looking for 10 years of experience in a software that has only been available for 2 years.If you really wanted the job you had to find a polite way to point out their lack of knowledge. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
On 29/11/21 5:27 pm, Sebastian Welton wrote: On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:03:01 +0800, David Crayford wrote: Didn't CA create the Chorus Software Manager that was generally very well received by the community. I haven't used it but I heard that installing mainframe software using SMP/E was as easy as installing a browser add-on using the Web UI. As for Linux package managers, they are so simple to use. I use debian systems and can install a complex software product such as Docker simply by using the "sudo apt install docker" command. Even Windows has a package manager now and "winget install python" from PowerShell is much simplier than downloading an MSI installer or fussy around with a GUI like Windows Store. Installing software on Ubuntu, you can use: - Ubuntu software center - APT - Synaptic Package Manager - Downloadable packages (.deb) - Installing with APT - Installing with dpkg - Installing via the GUI - Compiling from source code If like me you support various distros, then you're going to have to remember some of these, and this is a very cutdown list of installers: - apk-tools (apk): Alpine Package Keeper, the package manager for Alpine Linux; - Flatpak: A containerized/sandboxed packaging format previously known as xdg-app; - netpkg: The package manager used by Zenwalk. Compatible with Slackware package management tools; - Nix Package Manager: Nix is a powerful package manager for Linux and other Unix systems that makes package management reliable and reproducible. It provides atomic upgrades and rollbacks, side-by-side installation of multiple versions of a package, multi-user package management and easy setup of build environments; - OpenPKG: Cross-platform package management system based on RPM Package Manager; - opkg: Fork of ipkg lightweight package management intended for use on embedded Linux devices; - Pacman: Used in Arch Linux, Frugalware and DeLi Linux. Its binary package format is a zstd-compressed tar archive (file extension: .pkg.tar.zst) built using the makepkg utility (which comes bundled with pacman) and a specialized type of shell script called a PKGBUILD; - PETget: Used by Puppy Linux; - RPM Package Manager: Created by Red Hat. RPM is the Linux Standard Base packaging format and the base of a number of additional tools, including apt4rpm, Red Hat's up2date, Mageia's urpmi, openSUSE's ZYpp (zypper), PLD Linux's poldek, Fedora's DNF, and YUM, which is used by Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and Yellow Dog Linux; - probably the one most people know of but each distro seems to have it's own implementation so you have to know how to use each different one - slapt-get: Which is used by Slackware and works with a binary package format that is essentially a xz-compressed tar archive with the file extension .txz; - Smart Package Manager: Used by CCux Linux; - Snappy: Cross-distribution package manager, non-free on the server-side, originally developed for Ubuntu; - Zero Install (0install): Cross-platform packaging and distributions software. It is available for Arch Linux, Debian, Knoppix, Mint, Ubuntu, Fedora, Gentoo, OpenSUSE, Red Hat and Slackware; Awesome list! Who doesn't love choice? ;) I only use Ubuntu based debian distros (headless or mint for desktop) or RHEL so I'm comfortable with both. So now I've installed python using the package manager for the distro, I then want to install packages at an application level. For example, if I want to install python packages, I then have to use pip and so on (Go, Gradle, Maven, Yam, et.) and now on z/OS we have miniconda...When will it ever stop? Haha, we use Poetry for Python which I notice is missing from your exhaustive list! Miniconda certainly had a mixed reception when it was rolled out. On the one hand you have devs who use different versions of software and like being able to set up multiple conda environments that they can easily switch between. On the other you have to sysadmins (sysprogs) who just want a fixed, stable, environment and would prefer to use SMP/E. IIRC, you can install Ported Tools using SMP/E but you need to have a support contract with Rocket. Sebastian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:03:01 +0800, David Crayford wrote: >Didn't CA create the Chorus Software Manager that was generally very >well received by the community. I haven't used it but I heard that >installing mainframe software using SMP/E was as easy as installing a >browser add-on using the Web UI. As for Linux package managers, they are >so simple to use. I use debian systems and can install a complex >software product such as >Docker simply by using the "sudo apt install docker" command. Even >Windows has a package manager now and "winget install python" from >PowerShell is much simplier than downloading an MSI installer or fussy >around with a GUI like Windows Store. > Installing software on Ubuntu, you can use: - Ubuntu software center - APT - Synaptic Package Manager - Downloadable packages (.deb) - Installing with APT - Installing with dpkg - Installing via the GUI - Compiling from source code If like me you support various distros, then you're going to have to remember some of these, and this is a very cutdown list of installers: - apk-tools (apk): Alpine Package Keeper, the package manager for Alpine Linux; - Flatpak: A containerized/sandboxed packaging format previously known as xdg-app; - netpkg: The package manager used by Zenwalk. Compatible with Slackware package management tools; - Nix Package Manager: Nix is a powerful package manager for Linux and other Unix systems that makes package management reliable and reproducible. It provides atomic upgrades and rollbacks, side-by-side installation of multiple versions of a package, multi-user package management and easy setup of build environments; - OpenPKG: Cross-platform package management system based on RPM Package Manager; - opkg: Fork of ipkg lightweight package management intended for use on embedded Linux devices; - Pacman: Used in Arch Linux, Frugalware and DeLi Linux. Its binary package format is a zstd-compressed tar archive (file extension: .pkg.tar.zst) built using the makepkg utility (which comes bundled with pacman) and a specialized type of shell script called a PKGBUILD; - PETget: Used by Puppy Linux; - RPM Package Manager: Created by Red Hat. RPM is the Linux Standard Base packaging format and the base of a number of additional tools, including apt4rpm, Red Hat's up2date, Mageia's urpmi, openSUSE's ZYpp (zypper), PLD Linux's poldek, Fedora's DNF, and YUM, which is used by Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and Yellow Dog Linux; - probably the one most people know of but each distro seems to have it's own implementation so you have to know how to use each different one - slapt-get: Which is used by Slackware and works with a binary package format that is essentially a xz-compressed tar archive with the file extension .txz; - Smart Package Manager: Used by CCux Linux; - Snappy: Cross-distribution package manager, non-free on the server-side, originally developed for Ubuntu; - Zero Install (0install): Cross-platform packaging and distributions software. It is available for Arch Linux, Debian, Knoppix, Mint, Ubuntu, Fedora, Gentoo, OpenSUSE, Red Hat and Slackware; So now I've installed python using the package manager for the distro, I then want to install packages at an application level. For example, if I want to install python packages, I then have to use pip and so on (Go, Gradle, Maven, Yam, et.) and now on z/OS we have miniconda...When will it ever stop? Sebastian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
On 29/11/21 4:26 am, Tom Longfellow wrote: I dread z/OSMF as an installer. It's my understanding that z/OSMF just uses workflows to submit SMP/E jobs. The grey beards hate using it but the young guys are ambivalent. I am old enough to remember CA-AGGRAVATOR (i know, wrong name ) and have recently been frustrated by the Linux worlds assumption that we are all born with a native understanding of rpm and packages. Didn't CA create the Chorus Software Manager that was generally very well received by the community. I haven't used it but I heard that installing mainframe software using SMP/E was as easy as installing a browser add-on using the Web UI. As for Linux package managers, they are so simple to use. I use debian systems and can install a complex software product such as Docker simply by using the "sudo apt install docker" command. Even Windows has a package manager now and "winget install python" from PowerShell is much simplier than downloading an MSI installer or fussy around with a GUI like Windows Store. zCX looks to make life even more challenging. I've been playing with zCX and had a meeting with some IBMers a couple of weeks ago. There are uses cases for zCX which can modernize your z/OS applications and save you money by offing to a zIIP. There are challenges that are useful to me because I can leverage them to my own benefit (like pervasive encryption to head off auditors). But the z/OSMF challenges are not making my days easier. Pretty GUIs may impress gamers and senior exec, but sooner or later someone has to make the underlying software actually work (even if just a command line) To me the most compelling reason to use z/OSMF is the REST APIs. I worked with one of our sysprogs last week to write a Lua script that calls the z/OSMF data sets API to search all of our sysplexes and removes data sets for users that have left the company. Doing this manually is by logging on to ISPF is laborious and boring. It's easy to automate and integrate into ticketing systems like Jira by creating webhooks. I was reading that Viacom are integrating with z/OS using z/OSMF and Zowe APIs for their voice assistant device. It's not far fetched to imagine a future where you may install z/OS 3.1 by saying, "Mainframe, install z/OS 3.1!" :) https://thenewstack.io/trash-eavesdropping-alexa-with-a-secure-open-source-alternative/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
To Brians remark about the quality of installation deliverables We had missing component or two in our z/OS 2.4 order from July, before 2.5 hit the streets. It is hard enough to get z/OS up and running without glitches and 'do it our way, or else' directives. I dread z/OSMF as an installer. I am old enough to remember CA-AGGRAVATOR (i know, wrong name ) and have recently been frustrated by the Linux worlds assumption that we are all born with a native understanding of rpm and packages. zCX looks to make life even more challenging. There are challenges that are useful to me because I can leverage them to my own benefit (like pervasive encryption to head off auditors). But the z/OSMF challenges are not making my days easier. Pretty GUIs may impress gamers and senior exec, but sooner or later someone has to make the underlying software actually work (even if just a command line) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Happy Turkey Day in advance Bob! Carmen Vitullo -Original Message- From: Robert <01c91f408b9e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> To: IBM-MAIN Date: Thursday, 18 November 2021 10:36 AM CST Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF Marna, Next week is soon enough! I have enough other reading material in the meantime (Planning for Installation, z/OSMF manuals, etc.). Not to mention I'm on vacation next week!!! Bob (I only use Robert for official documentation, like a government email userid. ☹ ) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Marna WALLE Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 9:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF Robert, The PTFs for OA62404 are making their way through test, and should be available next week. If you'd like a ++APAR for this APAR, please contact IBM Service, and we can give you one. We've tested the ++APARs and they should be available for distribution should you request them. -Marna WALLE z/OS System Installation and Upgrade IBM Poughkeepsie -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Marna, Next week is soon enough! I have enough other reading material in the meantime (Planning for Installation, z/OSMF manuals, etc.). Not to mention I'm on vacation next week!!! Bob (I only use Robert for official documentation, like a government email userid. ☹ ) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Marna WALLE Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 9:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF Robert, The PTFs for OA62404 are making their way through test, and should be available next week. If you'd like a ++APAR for this APAR, please contact IBM Service, and we can give you one. We've tested the ++APARs and they should be available for distribution should you request them. -Marna WALLE z/OS System Installation and Upgrade IBM Poughkeepsie -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Robert, The PTFs for OA62404 are making their way through test, and should be available next week. If you'd like a ++APAR for this APAR, please contact IBM Service, and we can give you one. We've tested the ++APARs and they should be available for distribution should you request them. -Marna WALLE z/OS System Installation and Upgrade IBM Poughkeepsie -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Hi Marc, I was aware of that an hour ago. I should have asked when UJ07093 would be available instead of the PE'd UJ06880. I also meant to ask if Brian's build issue was a one-off for him or any other recent builds. I have a November 4th build that I have not unloaded yet as I was waiting to review the latest migration workflow first. Bob -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN Marc Yves Desravines Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 6:52 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF Hi Bob, The APAR OA62404 is already closed. I think the PTFs UJ07092 UJ07093 UJ07094 may be in TEST now. https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/apar/OA62404 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Hi Bob, The APAR OA62404 is already closed. I think the PTFs UJ07092 UJ07093 UJ07094 may be in TEST now. https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/apar/OA62404 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Marna, Any idea when UJ06880 (latest migration workflow) will be fixed? Bob -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Marna WALLE Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 8:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF Mark, Please open a Case against ServerPac. It is possible that your order, if it had gone through the manual entitlement process, could have been switched. This would have been an error that the Service folks can verify and fix. Thanks. Marna WALLE z/OS Install and Upgrade IBM Poughkeepsie. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
I was notified of a build issue with the z/OSMF build for z/OS 2.5. The first order I placed was missing several components in my order list, the second one (the redo) was the one they told me would be delayed while they fixed the z/OSMF build process. However, when I placed my redo order, I also placed one for the Serverpac version and I received that one yesterday. So far, I'm not too thrilled with the process. It was possibly due to the build error, so I'm going to try it again when they finally send me the fixed build, but in the mean time I'm going to install the Serverpac one and then I will be able to compare the two results and see how I feel about it then. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
I opened a Case against ShopZ. I saw that somewhere on ShopZ that is what I should have done. It was a real treat trying to convince Support that ShopZ was a real thing. :) Then 7 failed attempts at sending an email with a link to update my Support record. None of which I could open. Finally I have been in touch with someone that could help. *"During some quality verification checks for the processing of your z/OS V2.5 ServerPac order, we noticed an oversight on our part. You chose to have the installation method of z/OSMF ServerPac, and yet your ServerPac order was created with the installation method of CustomPac Dialog ServerPac."* The answer is to reorder z/OS 2.5. Which I will be doing tomorrow morning. On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 8:51 AM Marna WALLE wrote: > Mark, > Please open a Case against ServerPac. It is possible that your order, if > it had gone through the manual entitlement process, could have been > switched. This would have been an error that the Service folks can verify > and fix. > > Thanks. > Marna WALLE > z/OS Install and Upgrade > IBM Poughkeepsie. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- The postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent Mainline’s positions or opinions Mark D Pace Senior Systems Engineer Mainline Information Systems -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
Mark, Please open a Case against ServerPac. It is possible that your order, if it had gone through the manual entitlement process, could have been switched. This would have been an error that the Service folks can verify and fix. Thanks. Marna WALLE z/OS Install and Upgrade IBM Poughkeepsie. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
I wanted to verify that I ordered it correctly before I go off and open a ticket. This is from my ShopZ order. Installation Method z/OSMF SW Management On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 10:42 AM Kurt J. Quackenbush wrote: > > I ordered z/OS 2.5 as a Workload installation via z/OSMF. > > All of the documentation I received was for installing via the Dialogs. > > I've followed all the directions for making sure z/OSMF was ready to use > > Workloads, but I can not find any documentation on using z/OSMF to > install > > z/OS 2.5. > > When you placed the order in Shopz, are you sure you selected "z/OSMF SW > Management" as the Installation Method? If so, then I suggest you open a > case with IBM Support so they can track down what happened after you > submitted the order. > > Kurt Quackenbush -- IBM, z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management > Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs. > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- The postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent Mainline’s positions or opinions Mark D Pace Senior Systems Engineer Mainline Information Systems -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 2.5 install with z/OSMF
> I ordered z/OS 2.5 as a Workload installation via z/OSMF. > All of the documentation I received was for installing via the Dialogs. > I've followed all the directions for making sure z/OSMF was ready to use > Workloads, but I can not find any documentation on using z/OSMF to install > z/OS 2.5. When you placed the order in Shopz, are you sure you selected "z/OSMF SW Management" as the Installation Method? If so, then I suggest you open a case with IBM Support so they can track down what happened after you submitted the order. Kurt Quackenbush -- IBM, z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
