RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Randall Gellens [mailto:ra...@qualcomm.com] writes: At 10:06 AM +0700 8/30/10, Glen Zorn wrote: Are there any smoke-free restaurants near the site, or even anywhere in Beijing? Don't worry: the Disneyfication of the planet continues apace the Chinese, being good capitalists, have also discovered the profit advantages in controlling human behavior as opposed to actual air quality. I'm sure that you will be able to find many places to soak up your preferred mixture of toxic pollutants without any offensive additions. Of course different people see things differently, but I find it hard to see how you can compare not being forced against one's will to smoke to Disney's bland entertainment. A little less hyperbole would go a long way toward making this conversation productive: nobody is forcing you against your will to do anything, let alone smoke. Everybody makes choices every day, always choosing those things they perceive as preferable (if possible). Maybe Qualcomm is actually forcing you against your will to go and breathe the abysmal air in Beijing for a week but I doubt it: they would probably be happy to save the expense you could always resign. Even if there were no non-smoking restaurants anywhere in China you would have a number of options for feeding yourself for the week. If, in that situation, you were to enter a restaurant I doubt strongly that it would be because you were in chains with a gun to your head; rather, it would be because you found it preferable to the alternatives. Personally, I have no interest in controlling anyone's behavior, *except* that I prefer that someone else's choice not drag me into it. A one-man spaceship sounds like the only answer, then, since other people's choices 'drag you into it' virtually constantly. If you want to drink, shoot heroin, skydive, whatever, I don't care at all unless you try to force me to do the same. When someone smokes in public, every else is forced to smoke as well. Nonsense: there is always, at least, the option to move away. If you want to inject nicotine during an IETF session or at dinner, I could not care less. Just don't force me to as well. I can only assume that you never actually been forced to do anything; I cannot otherwise explain your cavalier use of the word. As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins. Again, refraining from hyperbole would be helpful. Only in the most fevered imagination could a person smoking 25 feet away be equated with a personal, physical attack. I really cannot figure out what what you are saying about the Chinese. I am not aware of them controlling smoking in public, so I assume you're talking about something else, but what? Can you please clarify? Sorry for the lack of clarity: I really thought that my meaning was obvious. Anyway, especially since they cleaned up the town in the run-up to the Olympics there are (in my experience) lots of non-smoking restaurants in Beijing. For example, all of the restaurants in the Shangri-La have non-smoking sections. Here is a link to a non-smoking ( cheap) 4* hotel closer than the Nikko: http://www.agoda.com/asia/china/beijing/jiu_zhou_commercial_hotel.html. ... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
At 12:58 AM -0700 8/28/10, Fred Baker wrote: Hiroshima, Barcelona, and Maastricht are equally secondary to me. I take a commuter flight, I take a flight between hubs, and I do something else (flight or train, and the train's a lot more comfortable than flying), and I'm there. If I'm on three flights or two and a train, to me that's pretty normal. Leaves me wondering what the fuss is about. I'm glad it was so easy for you to get to Maastricht and Hiroshima. I know that a number of people had equally easy access. However, others had much more difficult journeys, involving multiple trains/taxis, and confusing and conflicting information. If you're arguing against Maastricht on the basis of it being secondary, do you really want to go there? Maastricht is not well-connected to international airports in the summer. I agree they need to be good venues. Was Hiroshima a good venue, by your analysis? It seemed very good to me. So did Maastricht, although we had to fix the Internet access in the conference hotel. My only complaint there, to be honest, is that I used Swisscom in the Crowne Plaza and several other hotels while in Europe, and with the exception of the NH Airport Brussels, they all had loss rates on the order of 1% or greater for the duration that I was measuring. I thought Maastricht was a great city. In Hiroshima, we met in a large hotel in a dense area. In Maastricht, there was only one hotel close to where we met, and the Internet access required a Herculean effort that I don't think we have a right to demand. (It was difficult to find smoke-free food in Hiroshima, except for the nearby department store's food court, but I can live with that.) So, I'd say both Maastricht and Hiroshima were hard to get to, and Maastricht additionally had less good facilities. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;facts are suspect;I speak for myself only -- Randomly selected tag: --- I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter. --Blaise Pascal ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
You said: For an IETF meeting, we don't really have either of these. What? IETF 79 is hosted by Tsinghua University, CERNET and CNNIC. The website is still work in progress, but I would be very surprised if they won't iinclude additional hotel info etc, if they don't, well then we can certainly ask them too. Food (outside of the major international hotels) is VERY cheap in Beijing, as in less than $20 for a 5-course meal for 2 including beer. Beer in a grocery store is about 25 US cents per bottle. Sounding a little better? Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
On Aug 29, 2010, at 9:32 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: You said: For an IETF meeting, we don't really have either of these. What? IETF 79 is hosted by Tsinghua University, CERNET and CNNIC. The website is still work in progress, but I would be very surprised if they won't iinclude additional hotel info etc, if they don't, well then we can certainly ask them too. Hopefully. But only the two hotels listed there have agreements and special rates for IETF attendants. In Maastricht there were a lot of hotels with special rates, so a lot were listed. I don't remember additional hotels being listed for Anaheim, Dublin or Chicago. In all those locations this was not a problem, but I don't know how to spot a fleabag hotel in China. I believe I can do this in the US or Europe. Food (outside of the major international hotels) is VERY cheap in Beijing, as in less than $20 for a 5-course meal for 2 including beer. Beer in a grocery store is about 25 US cents per bottle. Sounding a little better? Sounds great, but food and hotels are two separate expense report items, each with its own caps. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Yoav Nir wrote: Hopefully. But only the two hotels listed there have agreements and special rates for IETF attendants. In Maastricht there were a lot of hotels with special rates, so a lot were listed. Yeah, and people (as usual) complained that they could get much better rates outside the IETF block. Can't win that one. In all those locations this was not a problem, but I don't know how to spot a fleabag hotel in China. I believe I can do this in the US or Europe. Lonely Planet? Google? Ask someone who has been there? Wait a couple of weeks and see what the host comes up with? For the record, I tried to hire (volunteer) a local expert who has lived there for 18 years and speaks fluent Mandarin and English, but he was too busy with his day job, I am still hoping someone else will step up to the plate, but in any case, I am confident the host will help. Plus there are lots of people on this list who can assist, one of the reasons we are going to China is the increasing participation from China in the IETF. James Seng, how do you read? Sounds great, but food and hotels are two separate expense report items, each with its own caps. Fair enough, but total cost is surely a factor for approval, no? I know, I won't call you Shirley again :-) Ole ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Ole Jacobsen [mailto:o...@cisco.com] writes: On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Yoav Nir wrote: Hopefully. But only the two hotels listed there have agreements and special rates for IETF attendants. In Maastricht there were a lot of hotels with special rates, so a lot were listed. Yeah, and people (as usual) complained that they could get much better rates outside the IETF block. Can't win that one. Perhaps not (there will always be a Motel 6 or some such down the road), but that's not the question definitely not the problem. The question is why, when the IETF has essentially promised to fill the Shangri-La Beijing for the week, is it possible to book a room on the Shangri-La Web site right now for the entire week of the meeting at less than the IETF rate? The question is why I was able to book a room @ the Hiroshima hotel for less than half the IETF rate (admittedly w/o breakfast; was the free breakfast worth ~$80/day?). The problem is that, eventually, the IETF will no longer be able to fill the conference hotel because of the outrageous rates negotiated. IEEE 802 has already run into this and has had to resort to offering a meeting fee discount to those who spend at least one night in the conference hotel. The IEEE got into that position, I'm told, thanks to the corruption of a meeting scheduler who locked them into a particular hotel chain for many years in advance in return for valuable kickbacks. What is the IETF excuse? In all those locations this was not a problem, but I don't know how to spot a fleabag hotel in China. I believe I can do this in the US or Europe. Lonely Planet? Google? Ask someone who has been there? Wait a couple of weeks and see what the host comes up with? Again, that's not the problem: in about an hour I was able to come up with half a dozen 4*+ hotels as close or closer to the Shangri-La than the official overflow hotel @ a maximum rate of $72/night (for a new, deluxe 2 bdrm apartment). Why should I have to? Again, we're basically promising to fill the hotel for a week in November; that's worth money to the hotel but we don't seem to be seeing any of it. I've even been told that the IETF has recently been paying for the use of meeting rooms @ the conference hotel. Why? . ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Glen Zorn wrote: Lonely Planet? Google? Ask someone who has been there? Wait a couple of weeks and see what the host comes up with? Again, that’s not the problem: in about an hour I was able to come up with half a dozen 4*+ hotels as close or closer to the Shangri-La than the official overflow hotel @ a maximum rate of $72/night (for a new, deluxe 2 bdrm apartment). Please share. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Yoav Nir [mailto:y...@checkpoint.com] writes: On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Glen Zorn wrote: Lonely Planet? Google? Ask someone who has been there? Wait a couple of weeks and see what the host comes up with? Again, that's not the problem: in about an hour I was able to come up with half a dozen 4*+ hotels as close or closer to the Shangri-La than the official overflow hotel @ a maximum rate of $72/night (for a new, deluxe 2 bdrm apartment). Please share. Happy to do so, once my own reservation is confirmed ;-). Hint: you can use the combination of asiarooms.com for location agoda.com for price... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Glen Zorn wrote: Ole Jacobsen [mailto:o...@cisco.com]mailto:[mailto:o...@cisco.com] writes: On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Yoav Nir wrote: Hopefully. But only the two hotels listed there have agreements and special rates for IETF attendants. In Maastricht there were a lot of hotels with special rates, so a lot were listed. Yeah, and people (as usual) complained that they could get much better rates outside the IETF block. Can't win that one. Perhaps not (there will always be a Motel 6 or some such down the road), but that’s not the question definitely not the problem. The question is why, when the IETF has essentially promised to fill the Shangri-La Beijing for the week, is it possible to book a room on the Shangri-La Web site right now for the entire week of the meeting at less than the IETF rate? Really? I have just tried that, and got the same 1300 RMB with or without the promotion code. I can get cheaper rates for the week before or the week after, but entering 7th-12th of November gives me just the 1300 RMB rate. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Yoav Nir [mailto:y...@checkpoint.com] writes: On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Glen Zorn wrote: Ole Jacobsen [mailto:o...@cisco.com] writes: On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Yoav Nir wrote: Hopefully. But only the two hotels listed there have agreements and special rates for IETF attendants. In Maastricht there were a lot of hotels with special rates, so a lot were listed. Yeah, and people (as usual) complained that they could get much better rates outside the IETF block. Can't win that one. Perhaps not (there will always be a Motel 6 or some such down the road), but that's not the question definitely not the problem. The question is why, when the IETF has essentially promised to fill the Shangri-La Beijing for the week, is it possible to book a room on the Shangri-La Web site right now for the entire week of the meeting at less than the IETF rate? Really? I have just tried that, and got the same 1300 RMB with or without the promotion code. Nevertheless, does it not put the lie to the idea that the IETF is getting a deal (except maybe a bad one)? I can get cheaper rates for the week before or the week after, but entering 7th-12th of November gives me just the 1300 RMB rate. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
On 29/08/2010 06:22, Yoav Nir wrote: The warning to have your destination written down in Chinese, because the taxi drivers don't speak English doesn't inspire confidence either. I've never been to Beijing myself but friends who have told me that this worked perfect for them: the taxidriver understood where they wanted to go and they got there in more or less a straight line. For most business meetings, all this doesn't matter. You either have a host that helps you out, or your Chinese sales office helps you out. For an IETF meeting, we don't really have either of these. The host and the IETF do help: we provide 2 hotels and instructions on how to get there. The IETF (IAOC, local host, ...) is not a travel agent though, if you have requirements outside what is provided, I suggest that you contact a travel agent. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Yoav Nir wrote: If this was some place in the US, I could easily find a cheap hotel chain nearby (like I did in Anaheim). In Europe, it's a little more difficult, but still doable (thanks, Google Earth). In China, I have no idea where to even look. There are usual plenty of web sites for hostels, hotels, and the like. They usually provide a map that indicates where exactly the hotel is. If possible, you print the map in advance, and that helps quite a bit. At Hiroshima a couple of us got on a cab, and it was impossible for us to understand each other with the taxi driver. We asked him to stop, we got of the cab, and drew with the pen on our map a circle to show him where we wonted to go. -- No big deal. At the airport (Tokyo) it was even funnier... I don't recall what I was looking for, but we couldn't understand each other. However, a bit of sign language and their patience and politeness were enough. IMO, that's part of the fun of traveling... Sure, I can find a list of cheap hotels in Beijing, but I have no idea where they are in relation to the meeting venue, or whether the staff would speak English. At times I have done this: get there a day earlier or so, and you do all your logistics. Find out how far if it's possible to walk from your hotel to the meeting venue, find some place that's affordable to eat, etc. The warning to have your destination written down in Chinese, because the taxi drivers don't speak English doesn't inspire confidence either. Why would you expect them to speak English? They are Chinese, and live in China... hence they speak Chinese. :-)- I'd argue that in most of Latin-America taxi drivers won't speak English, either. Writing down whatever you want to communicate when you travel to a country where you don't speak their language is usually the safe way to go. Ah, and of course you also take some cash with you, and if possible, get some Chinese currency before you actually get to China. Having some idea about how much they should charge you for e.g. a taxi from the airport to the center of the city is usually valuable information, too. It wouldn't be surprised if the taxi driver tried to charge you more than he should if he realized you have no idea of how much things cost there (this could easily happen here in Argentina). Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: ferna...@gont.com.ar || fg...@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
At 11:32 PM -0700 8/28/10, Ole Jacobsen wrote: Food (outside of the major international hotels) is VERY cheap in Beijing, as in less than $20 for a 5-course meal for 2 including beer. Beer in a grocery store is about 25 US cents per bottle. Are there any smoke-free restaurants near the site, or even anywhere in Beijing? I don't care about beer, but breathing would be nice. Being able to join people for meals might be nice, too, but I guess that will have to wait for a venue that isn't China or Prague. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;facts are suspect;I speak for myself only -- Randomly selected tag: --- A logician saves the life of a space alien and is rewarded with an offer to answer any question. After a thought he asks: What is the best question to ask and the correct answer to it? After a brief panic the alien consults her computer and says: The best question to ask is the one you just did and the correct answer to it is the one I gave. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
At 10:06 AM +0700 8/30/10, Glen Zorn wrote: Are there any smoke-free restaurants near the site, or even anywhere in Beijing? Don't worry: the Disneyfication of the planet continues apace the Chinese, being good capitalists, have also discovered the profit advantages in controlling human behavior as opposed to actual air quality. I'm sure that you will be able to find many places to soak up your preferred mixture of toxic pollutants without any offensive additions. Of course different people see things differently, but I find it hard to see how you can compare not being forced against one's will to smoke to Disney's bland entertainment. Personally, I have no interest in controlling anyone's behavior, *except* that I prefer that someone else's choice not drag me into it. If you want to drink, shoot heroin, skydive, whatever, I don't care at all unless you try to force me to do the same. When someone smokes in public, every else is forced to smoke as well. If you want to inject nicotine during an IETF session or at dinner, I could not care less. Just don't force me to as well. As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins. I really cannot figure out what what you are saying about the Chinese. I am not aware of them controlling smoking in public, so I assume you're talking about something else, but what? Can you please clarify? -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;facts are suspect;I speak for myself only -- Randomly selected tag: --- Perhaps the real reason why we have always been able to champion free speech in this country is that we know perfectly well that hardly anybody has got anything to say, and that no one will listen to anyone that has. -- Editorial, Daily Mail [British Paper, date unknown] ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Hi Olaf, What I'm saying is that this has been done wrong, and probably the only way to avoid it is to: 1) Not accepting a venue which is not directly connected (and CONFIRMED by the secretariat) by an international airport, served by at least 3 different alliances (example, OneWorld, Star, Skyteam). It will be acceptable a train or bus from the airport to the venue/hotels, let's say less than one hour trip, AND with no line changes. Or 2) If the venue don't met that requirement, then the secretariat should take the responsibility to double check that the different recommended transportation suggestions are valid and perform as announced by the provider (example, the railway company). Maastricht didn't met any of both choices. I don't think the responsibility of the IAOC/secretariat finish by providing the venue and hotels. It must be a GOOD venue. Otherwise we may choose as venue ANY city lost in a far corner of any country, right ? And that should include the most obvious info about how to reach the venue (especially if is not next to an international airport). If somebody take the risk of choosing an alternative path, of course, that's a different history. I don't agree either that the secretariat should not make a minimum supervision of the host provided info. I know it is impossible not being local to monitor all, but in a case where we don't have an international airport, the secretariat should make sure that the trains have the right information, definitively ! Regards, Jordi From: Olaf Kolkman o...@nlnetlabs.nl Reply-To: o...@nlnetlabs.nl Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:06:14 +0200 To: jordi.pa...@consulintel.es Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 On Aug 26, 2010, at 3:07 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi, I'm forwarding this message to the general IETF mailing list, because I think we need a good discussion on this and the confirmation from the secretariat/IAOC that this work will be done CORRECTLY NEXT TIME. The fact is that if we don't make sure that a venue has good connections then should not be candidate to be an IETF venue. I'm not referring to plane vs train. I'm fine with train if the information provided is accurate. Some times, for people in Europe, train can be more convenient than planes, but this is only true if the train system is reliable in general (of course, a strike, crash or anything like that is something that we can't predict/avoid). Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was totally FALSE. This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting a venue. I hope that we learn the lesson. Jordi, You are suggesting that the secretariat or the IAOC does research into the correctness of information that is linked from the host site, correct? If so: The host site is _not_ the responsibility of the IAOC or the secretariat, it is the responsibility of the host. And although I would agree that there should be some expectation that the host does its best to provide accurate venue information one cannot expect the host to actually _test_ whether sites that (in their eyes) are supposed to give authoritative information are actually correct. Suppose that this link was not provided by the host. You would probably have googled for Maastricht Brussels Train? That query provides me with the mentioned site as first hit. Would you have complained to google that the first hit for that query contained false information? But to the underlying point: I think the responsibility of the IAOC and secretariat stops with providing accurate hotel and venue location information. How to get from home to the venue is _your own_ responsibility by which you might be aided through links provided by the hosts and hints and tips from your colleagues on the various IETF lists. I would agree that it is fair to expect that folk providing those hints and tips do so diligently but that is not the responsibility of the IAOC or Secretariat. On purely personal title, --Olaf Olaf M. KolkmanNLnet Labs Science Park 140, http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/ 1098 XG Amsterdam ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
OK Jordi, you fell victim to a marketing site. I've got some news for you: Not every site on the Web has accurate information. Let me explain how that works. Something new comes along (say, a new train service) and marketing material (a web site) is generated. Some budget is set aside. The web site looks nice and flashy and correctly describes the state at the time the budget was there. The service turns out to be less successful than anticipated. Some changes are made. The website is not updated (out of lack of budget; out of shame; I don't know). The train personnel even knows that but probably thought: not a big problem, that's just a marketing site. Those who really need to know will go to the operator. An IETF analogy would be IPv6 and security: When IPv6 was first marketed, its mandatory security was an important (the only at the time) selling point. Lots of marketing of this feature, which made it turn into the incorrect marketing statement IPv6 more secure. IPv6 turns out to be less successful than planned and a lot of that security is never deployed. Still, after more than 10 years and a lot of IPv4 IPsec deploument, most IPv6 marketing sites sell IPv6 more secure. This kind outdated information is hard to get rid of. Not a problem, because those who really need to know will talk to experts. Should the host site have vetted the information on the marketing site before linking to it? Probably. On the other hand, the site does contain useful information. Still, it is quite obvious that this is not an operator site so nobody in their right mind would be relying on the letter of it for current information. The ugly part of this conversation is that you map this little failure of the hosts and then your big failure to properly vet information on the web to a failure of the site selection process or the IAOC. No, that's not it. General recommendation on the latter point: less drama, please. Gruesse, Carsten ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
On 08/28/2010 03:27 EDT, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Olaf, What I'm saying is that this has been done wrong, and probably the only way to avoid it is to: 1) Not accepting a venue which is not directly connected (and CONFIRMED by the secretariat) by an international airport, served by at least 3 different alliances (example, OneWorld, Star, Skyteam). It will be acceptable a train or bus from the airport to the venue/hotels, let's say less than one hour trip, AND with no line changes. What you save in transportation at the tail end can be totally destroyed by hotel and dining costs, and the IETF has to pay more for meeting facilities. swb ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
The savings really depends upon the city. After Maastricht, I went to Paris and the hotel for me there was 25 Euros a nite less than in Maastricht and I would have also saved several hundred dollars in airfare as well as alot of time in transit. So, while it is possible that IETF may have to pay more for meeting facilities, I contend that the net expenses for the average participant would be fairly close, even if the meeting fee were higher. Certainly, my meal expenses overall would be higher in larger and easier to reach cities, but that's more because I could actually find more to eat than that the overall costs are significantly higher. Mary. What you save in transportation at the tail end can be totally destroyed by hotel and dining costs, and the IETF has to pay more for meeting facilities. swb ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Fred, The fuss is all about the fact that the trains between Hiroshima or a flight leg from Frankfurt to Prague, for example can't be compared to the train experience to/from Maastricht in terms of convenience in scheduling, ease in purchasing ticketss, quality of transport and comfort (in my experience). Information about the trains to Hiroshima was provided well ahead of time and was extremely accurate and informative (down to the detail of not changing at the central Tokyo station). The trains to Hiroshima were far superior in quality and comfort than those to Maastricht. The train I took to Maastricht was decrepit - two cars that were filthy, with the filthiest restroom I have EVER seen in my entire life and I've seen alot having traveled in a station wagon all around the US as a child. And, unfortunately, I had no choice but to use the facilities on the train since the public restroom at the lovely Liege station was closed at 10pm at nite. I barely caught the last train to Maastricht due to flight delays and I got very lucky in that there was a cab dropping someone at the train station in Maastricht when I arrived, otherwise I would have had to walk to my hotel as the train station was entirely shutdown when I arrived. So, AT MOST, I would consider Maastricht a Tertiary location as I would the venue in Dublin and as I would a conference center located 15 minutes from my house despite it being 15 minutes from the 3rd busiest international airport in the world because there are no restaurants nearby and folks that stayed at other hotels would need a car to get there. In my opinion Hiroshima was a very satisfactory venue - the trains were clean, easy to use and the meeting venue was located in a city center (near all the hotels) with plenty of nearby choices for finding food. These are all very, very basic and simple criteria to meet, unfortunately, Maastricht did not satisfy any of them. Regards. Mary. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Fred Baker f...@cisco.com wrote: Hiroshima, Barcelona, and Maastricht are equally secondary to me. I take a commuter flight, I take a flight between hubs, and I do something else (flight or train, and the train's a lot more comfortable than flying), and I'm there. If I'm on three flights or two and a train, to me that's pretty normal. Leaves me wondering what the fuss is about. I've attached the www.hipmunk.com report on how to get from Barcelona to Beijing. If you're arguing against Maastricht on the basis of it being secondary, do you really want to go there? Maastricht didn't met any of both choices. I don't think the responsibility of the IAOC/secretariat finish by providing the venue and hotels. It must be a GOOD venue. Otherwise we may choose as venue ANY city lost in a far corner of any country, right ? And that should include the most obvious info about how to reach the venue (especially if is not next to an international airport). If somebody take the risk of choosing an alternative path, of course, that's a different history. I agree they need to be good venues. Was Hiroshima a good venue, by your analysis? It seemed very good to me. So did Maastricht, although we had to fix the Internet access in the conference hotel. My only complaint there, to be honest, is that I used Swisscom in the Crowne Plaza and several other hotels while in Europe, and with the exception of the NH Airport Brussels, they all had loss rates on the order of 1% or greater for the duration that I was measuring. I thought Maastricht was a great city. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
That's it ! Regards, Jordi From: Mary Barnes mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com Reply-To: mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:11:47 -0500 To: Fred Baker f...@cisco.com Cc: jordi.pa...@consulintel.es, IETF Discussion ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 Fred, The fuss is all about the fact that the trains between Hiroshima or a flight leg from Frankfurt to Prague, for example can't be compared to the train experience to/from Maastricht in terms of convenience in scheduling, ease in purchasing ticketss, quality of transport and comfort (in my experience). Information about the trains to Hiroshima was provided well ahead of time and was extremely accurate and informative (down to the detail of not changing at the central Tokyo station). The trains to Hiroshima were far superior in quality and comfort than those to Maastricht. The train I took to Maastricht was decrepit - two cars that were filthy, with the filthiest restroom I have EVER seen in my entire life and I've seen alot having traveled in a station wagon all around the US as a child. And, unfortunately, I had no choice but to use the facilities on the train since the public restroom at the lovely Liege station was closed at 10pm at nite. I barely caught the last train to Maastricht due to flight delays and I got very lucky in that there was a cab dropping someone at the train station in Maastricht when I arrived, otherwise I would have had to walk to my hotel as the train station was entirely shutdown when I arrived. So, AT MOST, I would consider Maastricht a Tertiary location as I would the venue in Dublin and as I would a conference center located 15 minutes from my house despite it being 15 minutes from the 3rd busiest international airport in the world because there are no restaurants nearby and folks that stayed at other hotels would need a car to get there. In my opinion Hiroshima was a very satisfactory venue - the trains were clean, easy to use and the meeting venue was located in a city center (near all the hotels) with plenty of nearby choices for finding food. These are all very, very basic and simple criteria to meet, unfortunately, Maastricht did not satisfy any of them. Regards. Mary. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Fred Baker f...@cisco.com wrote: Hiroshima, Barcelona, and Maastricht are equally secondary to me. I take a commuter flight, I take a flight between hubs, and I do something else (flight or train, and the train's a lot more comfortable than flying), and I'm there. If I'm on three flights or two and a train, to me that's pretty normal. Leaves me wondering what the fuss is about. I've attached the www.hipmunk.com report on how to get from Barcelona to Beijing. If you're arguing against Maastricht on the basis of it being secondary, do you really want to go there? Maastricht didn't met any of both choices. I don't think the responsibility of the IAOC/secretariat finish by providing the venue and hotels. It must be a GOOD venue. Otherwise we may choose as venue ANY city lost in a far corner of any country, right ? And that should include the most obvious info about how to reach the venue (especially if is not next to an international airport). If somebody take the risk of choosing an alternative path, of course, that's a different history. I agree they need to be good venues. Was Hiroshima a good venue, by your analysis? It seemed very good to me. So did Maastricht, although we had to fix the Internet access in the conference hotel. My only complaint there, to be honest, is that I used Swisscom in the Crowne Plaza and several other hotels while in Europe, and with the exception of the NH Airport Brussels, they all had loss rates on the order of 1% or greater for the duration that I was measuring. I thought Maastricht was a great city. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Scott Brim [mailto://scott.b...@gmail.com] writes: On 08/28/2010 03:27 EDT, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Olaf, What I'm saying is that this has been done wrong, and probably the only way to avoid it is to: 1) Not accepting a venue which is not directly connected (and CONFIRMED by the secretariat) by an international airport, served by at least 3 different alliances (example, OneWorld, Star, Skyteam). It will be acceptable a train or bus from the airport to the venue/hotels, let's say less than one hour trip, AND with no line changes. What you save in transportation at the tail end can be totally destroyed by hotel and dining costs, and the IETF has to pay more for meeting facilities. Speaking of which, I hope to be the first to note that paying $192 for a room in Beijing in November is highway robbery... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Sounds to me as if you both just need a good travel agent ( possibly a little anti-whining therapy ;-). Hope this helps. ~gwz -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 3:57 AM To: IETF Discussion Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat- Aero, Sat 07:09 That's it ! Regards, Jordi From: Mary Barnes mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com Reply-To: mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:11:47 -0500 To: Fred Baker f...@cisco.com Cc: jordi.pa...@consulintel.es, IETF Discussion ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat- Aero, Sat 07:09 Fred, The fuss is all about the fact that the trains between Hiroshima or a flight leg from Frankfurt to Prague, for example can't be compared to the train experience to/from Maastricht in terms of convenience in scheduling, ease in purchasing ticketss, quality of transport and comfort (in my experience). Information about the trains to Hiroshima was provided well ahead of time and was extremely accurate and informative (down to the detail of not changing at the central Tokyo station). The trains to Hiroshima were far superior in quality and comfort than those to Maastricht. The train I took to Maastricht was decrepit - two cars that were filthy, with the filthiest restroom I have EVER seen in my entire life and I've seen alot having traveled in a station wagon all around the US as a child. And, unfortunately, I had no choice but to use the facilities on the train since the public restroom at the lovely Liege station was closed at 10pm at nite. I barely caught the last train to Maastricht due to flight delays and I got very lucky in that there was a cab dropping someone at the train station in Maastricht when I arrived, otherwise I would have had to walk to my hotel as the train station was entirely shutdown when I arrived. So, AT MOST, I would consider Maastricht a Tertiary location as I would the venue in Dublin and as I would a conference center located 15 minutes from my house despite it being 15 minutes from the 3rd busiest international airport in the world because there are no restaurants nearby and folks that stayed at other hotels would need a car to get there. In my opinion Hiroshima was a very satisfactory venue - the trains were clean, easy to use and the meeting venue was located in a city center (near all the hotels) with plenty of nearby choices for finding food. These are all very, very basic and simple criteria to meet, unfortunately, Maastricht did not satisfy any of them. Regards. Mary. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Fred Baker f...@cisco.com wrote: Hiroshima, Barcelona, and Maastricht are equally secondary to me. I take a commuter flight, I take a flight between hubs, and I do something else (flight or train, and the train's a lot more comfortable than flying), and I'm there. If I'm on three flights or two and a train, to me that's pretty normal. Leaves me wondering what the fuss is about. I've attached the www.hipmunk.com report on how to get from Barcelona to Beijing. If you're arguing against Maastricht on the basis of it being secondary, do you really want to go there? Maastricht didn't met any of both choices. I don't think the responsibility of the IAOC/secretariat finish by providing the venue and hotels. It must be a GOOD venue. Otherwise we may choose as venue ANY city lost in a far corner of any country, right ? And that should include the most obvious info about how to reach the venue (especially if is not next to an international airport). If somebody take the risk of choosing an alternative path, of course, that's a different history. I agree they need to be good venues. Was Hiroshima a good venue, by your analysis? It seemed very good to me. So did Maastricht, although we had to fix the Internet access in the conference hotel. My only complaint there, to be honest, is that I used Swisscom in the Crowne Plaza and several other hotels while in Europe, and with the exception of the NH Airport Brussels, they all had loss rates on the order of 1% or greater for the duration that I was measuring. I thought Maastricht was a great city. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
On Aug 29, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Glen Zorn wrote: What you save in transportation at the tail end can be totally destroyed by hotel and dining costs, and the IETF has to pay more for meeting facilities. Speaking of which, I hope to be the first to note that paying $192 for a room in Beijing in November is highway robbery... What Glen said. Also, the secondary hotel is not much better at $147. The 15% service charge increase these to $220 and $169 respectively, which is way beyond the budget my company gives me for all locations in the world besides NYC. If this was some place in the US, I could easily find a cheap hotel chain nearby (like I did in Anaheim). In Europe, it's a little more difficult, but still doable (thanks, Google Earth). In China, I have no idea where to even look. Sure, I can find a list of cheap hotels in Beijing, but I have no idea where they are in relation to the meeting venue, or whether the staff would speak English. The warning to have your destination written down in Chinese, because the taxi drivers don't speak English doesn't inspire confidence either. For most business meetings, all this doesn't matter. You either have a host that helps you out, or your Chinese sales office helps you out. For an IETF meeting, we don't really have either of these. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
If this was some place in the US, I could easily find a cheap hotel chain nearby (like I did in Anaheim). In Europe, it's a little more difficult, but still doable (thanks, Google Earth). In China, I have no idea where to even look. Sure, I can find a list of cheap hotels in Beijing, but I have no idea where they are in relation to the meeting venue, or whether the staff would speak English. The warning to have your destination written down in Chinese, because the taxi drivers don't speak English doesn't inspire confidence either. For most business meetings, all this doesn't matter. You either have a host that helps you out, or your Chinese sales office helps you out. For an IETF meeting, we don't really have either of these. Just as a data point, I was in Beijing for the PPSP workshop at the beginning of the summer, and was able to come up with google maps to/from my hotel, which was not the conference hotel, with enough Chinese that I could hand the maps to a cab driver. I'm not a native, but my impression is that one of the things you're paying for at high-end hotels in China is staff that speaks English - but I've never stayed at a hotel in China where no one spoke English; it might be that just one or two people who spoke English, and everyone else would go fetch someone when I needed to answer a question. The only real point of confusion for me was that I didn't know what terminal I was DEPARTING from, when exiting China. Both Star Alliance and OneWorld fly out of the massive Terminal 3 (read more about this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_airport), but I didn't know that, and it took a little while at the hotel to figure out what to tell the cab driver. I put the address given at the IETF website (29 Zizhuyuan Road Beijing 100089 China) into Google Maps, and then zoomed out - looks like we're in Haidian District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidian_District, the university district). If you include the district in your searches for hotels, that will at least keep you from being at the other end of Beijing... Spencer ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
On Aug 26, 2010, at 3:07 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi, I'm forwarding this message to the general IETF mailing list, because I think we need a good discussion on this and the confirmation from the secretariat/IAOC that this work will be done CORRECTLY NEXT TIME. The fact is that if we don't make sure that a venue has good connections then should not be candidate to be an IETF venue. I'm not referring to plane vs train. I'm fine with train if the information provided is accurate. Some times, for people in Europe, train can be more convenient than planes, but this is only true if the train system is reliable in general (of course, a strike, crash or anything like that is something that we can't predict/avoid). Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was totally FALSE. This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting a venue. I hope that we learn the lesson. Jordi, You are suggesting that the secretariat or the IAOC does research into the correctness of information that is linked from the host site, correct? If so: The host site is _not_ the responsibility of the IAOC or the secretariat, it is the responsibility of the host. And although I would agree that there should be some expectation that the host does its best to provide accurate venue information one cannot expect the host to actually _test_ whether sites that (in their eyes) are supposed to give authoritative information are actually correct. Suppose that this link was not provided by the host. You would probably have googled for Maastricht Brussels Train? That query provides me with the mentioned site as first hit. Would you have complained to google that the first hit for that query contained false information? But to the underlying point: I think the responsibility of the IAOC and secretariat stops with providing accurate hotel and venue location information. How to get from home to the venue is _your own_ responsibility by which you might be aided through links provided by the hosts and hints and tips from your colleagues on the various IETF lists. I would agree that it is fair to expect that folk providing those hints and tips do so diligently but that is not the responsibility of the IAOC or Secretariat. On purely personal title, --Olaf Olaf M. KolkmanNLnet Labs Science Park 140, http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/ 1098 XG Amsterdam ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
- Original Message - From: Joel Jaeggli joe...@bogus.com To: jordi.pa...@consulintel.es Cc: ietf@ietf.org Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero,Sat 07:09 On 8/26/10 6:01 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Henk, This is the web site that was referred by the host web site for the fast speed train: http://www.maastrichtbrusselexpress.nl/?id=26 And still has the wrong information about the timing (the site has not been updated since the IETF, despite the written complain done to the train management and their confirmation that was not updated). Perhaps when you're done fixing the Belgian rail system you can fix the government as well... very interesting point. Regards, Jordi From: Henk Uijterwaal h...@ripe.net Organization: RIPE NCC Reply-To: h...@ripe.net Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:08:30 +0200 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 Hi Jordi, In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was not the case. It is a train starting in the Netherlands, the schedule published by the NS on their website can then be considered authoritative. The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good international local airport. I don't remember if this question was asked or not, some of this was discussed before I joined the IAOC. But even if the question was asked, I don't quite see how this would have solved your problem. 3 of the IAOC members had travelled with Dutch trains beforehand and their experience was that the information on the website was 100% accurate. And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you: Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not been updated for ages !. This is strange, as both the NS (Dutch) and NMBS (Belgium) railways recommend to check their websites to plan a trip. And again, I have yet to come across a case where the website different from the intention of the railway company to run a train. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: FW: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Jordi, Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was totally FALSE. This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting a venue. The Dutch railway site (www.ns.nl) is quite accurate. It lists the trains, arrival time, departure time and location where you have to change trains. In the 6 years or so that I've been a regular train user, I still have to come across a case where the website listed a train that the NS did not intend to run. Of course, the system is as good as its input data. If there is a technical problem or accident along a path, the website will notify you about that as soon as the data is entered. In practice, this means some chaos and confusion the first 10-30 minutes after the incident, then decent warning messages appear. That said, please explain to me how the IAOC can verify that a train sometime in the future, will not run according to schedule. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Hi Henk, In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was not the case. The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good international local airport. WE can't recommend train if we don't sample it. And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you: Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not been updated for ages !. I think we could have avoided and we SHOULD avoid this mess to the participants. Regards, Jordi From: Henk Uijterwaal h...@ripe.net Organization: RIPE NCC Reply-To: h...@ripe.net Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:38:23 +0200 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: FW: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 Jordi, Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was totally FALSE. This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting a venue. The Dutch railway site (www.ns.nl) is quite accurate. It lists the trains, arrival time, departure time and location where you have to change trains. In the 6 years or so that I've been a regular train user, I still have to come across a case where the website listed a train that the NS did not intend to run. Of course, the system is as good as its input data. If there is a technical problem or accident along a path, the website will notify you about that as soon as the data is entered. In practice, this means some chaos and confusion the first 10-30 minutes after the incident, then decent warning messages appear. That said, please explain to me how the IAOC can verify that a train sometime in the future, will not run according to schedule. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Jordi, I have no idea how you managed to have such a bad experience. I travelled on German, Dutch and Belgian railways to/from Maastricht and all the info I got in advance was 100% accurate, right down to what platform the trains departed from. I did hear that there was some confusion about whether or not express trains ran on the weekends from Brussels, but beyond that I am not aware of the total chaos you describe. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Henk, In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was not the case. The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good international local airport. WE can't recommend train if we don't sample it. And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you: Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not been updated for ages !. I think we could have avoided and we SHOULD avoid this mess to the participants. Regards, Jordi From: Henk Uijterwaal h...@ripe.net Organization: RIPE NCC Reply-To: h...@ripe.net Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:38:23 +0200 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: FW: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 Jordi, Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was totally FALSE. This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting a venue. The Dutch railway site (www.ns.nl) is quite accurate. It lists the trains, arrival time, departure time and location where you have to change trains. In the 6 years or so that I've been a regular train user, I still have to come across a case where the website listed a train that the NS did not intend to run. Of course, the system is as good as its input data. If there is a technical problem or accident along a path, the website will notify you about that as soon as the data is entered. In practice, this means some chaos and confusion the first 10-30 minutes after the incident, then decent warning messages appear. That said, please explain to me how the IAOC can verify that a train sometime in the future, will not run according to schedule. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Hi Ole, That's what I understood from the web site, and that's why I not complained with the difficulties on Sunday, but I was departing on Friday, which is a week-day, unless I've got it wrong :-) What I'm saying was the response from the train ticketing people in Liege if I recall correctly. Also they give me the incorrect information in the office about the faster way to reach the airport ... Then I was lucky to ask again in the tracks, while waiting the train and one of the employees that check for the people having a ticket or not (inside the train), provided me a better/faster route. Even if your experience has been different, I'm not making it. I've a written complain and already a response from Belgium trains. They ask their excuses, and confirm that it has not been updated (the info in the web site) for years, and that it is not definitively accurate. Regards, Jordi From: Ole Jacobsen o...@cisco.com Reply-To: Ole Jacobsen o...@cisco.com Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:04:35 -0700 (PDT) To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ jordi.pa...@consulintel.es Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 Jordi, I have no idea how you managed to have such a bad experience. I travelled on German, Dutch and Belgian railways to/from Maastricht and all the info I got in advance was 100% accurate, right down to what platform the trains departed from. I did hear that there was some confusion about whether or not express trains ran on the weekends from Brussels, but beyond that I am not aware of the total chaos you describe. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Henk, In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was not the case. The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good international local airport. WE can't recommend train if we don't sample it. And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you: Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not been updated for ages !. I think we could have avoided and we SHOULD avoid this mess to the participants. Regards, Jordi From: Henk Uijterwaal h...@ripe.net Organization: RIPE NCC Reply-To: h...@ripe.net Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:38:23 +0200 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: FW: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 Jordi, Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was totally FALSE. This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting a venue. The Dutch railway site (www.ns.nl) is quite accurate. It lists the trains, arrival time, departure time and location where you have to change trains. In the 6 years or so that I've been a regular train user, I still have to come across a case where the website listed a train that the NS did not intend to run. Of course, the system is as good as its input data. If there is a technical problem or accident along a path, the website will notify you about that as soon as the data is entered. In practice, this means some chaos and confusion the first 10-30 minutes after the incident, then decent warning messages appear. That said, please explain to me how the IAOC can verify that a train sometime in the future, will not run according to schedule. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Hi Jordi, In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was not the case. It is a train starting in the Netherlands, the schedule published by the NS on their website can then be considered authoritative. The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good international local airport. I don't remember if this question was asked or not, some of this was discussed before I joined the IAOC. But even if the question was asked, I don't quite see how this would have solved your problem. 3 of the IAOC members had travelled with Dutch trains beforehand and their experience was that the information on the website was 100% accurate. And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you: Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not been updated for ages !. This is strange, as both the NS (Dutch) and NMBS (Belgium) railways recommend to check their websites to plan a trip. And again, I have yet to come across a case where the website different from the intention of the railway company to run a train. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Hi Henk, This is the web site that was referred by the host web site for the fast speed train: http://www.maastrichtbrusselexpress.nl/?id=26 And still has the wrong information about the timing (the site has not been updated since the IETF, despite the written complain done to the train management and their confirmation that was not updated). Regards, Jordi From: Henk Uijterwaal h...@ripe.net Organization: RIPE NCC Reply-To: h...@ripe.net Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:08:30 +0200 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 Hi Jordi, In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was not the case. It is a train starting in the Netherlands, the schedule published by the NS on their website can then be considered authoritative. The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good international local airport. I don't remember if this question was asked or not, some of this was discussed before I joined the IAOC. But even if the question was asked, I don't quite see how this would have solved your problem. 3 of the IAOC members had travelled with Dutch trains beforehand and their experience was that the information on the website was 100% accurate. And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you: Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not been updated for ages !. This is strange, as both the NS (Dutch) and NMBS (Belgium) railways recommend to check their websites to plan a trip. And again, I have yet to come across a case where the website different from the intention of the railway company to run a train. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
On 8/26/10 6:01 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Henk, This is the web site that was referred by the host web site for the fast speed train: http://www.maastrichtbrusselexpress.nl/?id=26 And still has the wrong information about the timing (the site has not been updated since the IETF, despite the written complain done to the train management and their confirmation that was not updated). Perhaps when you're done fixing the Belgian rail system you can fix the government as well... Regards, Jordi From: Henk Uijterwaal h...@ripe.net Organization: RIPE NCC Reply-To: h...@ripe.net Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:08:30 +0200 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 Hi Jordi, In a previous discussion about this it was clear that was not the Dutch railway, but the Belgium one ... However, it was recommended to use the fast train from/to Brussels, as it was faster than to Amsterdam ... Clearly was not the case. It is a train starting in the Netherlands, the schedule published by the NS on their website can then be considered authoritative. The secretariat does an on site visit. It is simple to add one more point and question about the trains if this is going to be used by most of the participants (as it was in this case) and actually there is not a good international local airport. I don't remember if this question was asked or not, some of this was discussed before I joined the IAOC. But even if the question was asked, I don't quite see how this would have solved your problem. 3 of the IAOC members had travelled with Dutch trains beforehand and their experience was that the information on the website was 100% accurate. And you know, in this case was quite obvious. If you ask in the train station, as I did (unfortunately too late), they will tell you: Oh NO, don't believe at all at the information on the web site, it has not been updated for ages !. This is strange, as both the NS (Dutch) and NMBS (Belgium) railways recommend to check their websites to plan a trip. And again, I have yet to come across a case where the website different from the intention of the railway company to run a train. Henk -- -- Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The NetherlandsThe NetherlandsMobile: +31.6.55861746 -- I confirm today what I denied yesterday.Anonymous Politician. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
FW: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09
Hi, I'm forwarding this message to the general IETF mailing list, because I think we need a good discussion on this and the confirmation from the secretariat/IAOC that this work will be done CORRECTLY NEXT TIME. The fact is that if we don't make sure that a venue has good connections then should not be candidate to be an IETF venue. I'm not referring to plane vs train. I'm fine with train if the information provided is accurate. Some times, for people in Europe, train can be more convenient than planes, but this is only true if the train system is reliable in general (of course, a strike, crash or anything like that is something that we can't predict/avoid). Maastricht proved that the information provided by the train web sites was totally FALSE. This is something that the secretariat/IAOC SHOULD verify before accepting a venue. I hope that we learn the lesson. Regards, Jordi -- Forwarded Message From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ jordi.pa...@consulintel.es Reply-To: jordi.pa...@consulintel.es Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:57:19 +0200 To: 78attend...@ietf.org Subject: [78attendees] WARNING !!! Re: Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 - Don¹t believe at all in the info about the trains that they provide in the web site. - Don¹t believe at all in the info the employees in the train stations provide I will suggest to relay only in the people that drive the trains itself, according to my today experience. I was flying out from Brussels to Madrid. I decided just in case to take an earlier train that actually needed. I was in the station 40 minutes before the train should leave. It was a direct express train from Maastricht to Brussels North and then only one change to the airport. Guess what ... IT WAS NOT TRUE. I needed to change the train 4 times. In the first change in Liege for the info about the right itinerary, and after, asked for a complain form proving them that the web site was WRONG. They told me it is outdated and they know it for ages ... Well the worst is that the new itinerary was also INCORRECT ! I only discovered it asking to the train driver who provided me the right itinerary to all the way thru in order to be able to be in the airport 36 minutes before my train departure. I was not lucky, and the check-in was already closed and was not able to get my bags thru (no problem with me because I had already my boarding pass), so needed to get my bags directly into the plane as a very special favor because I'm Platinum level in Iberia, throwing away some of the liquids in the security control, and when arrived to Madrid, discovered that my bag was lost in the way (a direct flight !). It seems that I will get it tomorrow, as local staff forgot to put it on the plane, even if I run across all the airport with the bag ! Of course, I'm going to claim for injuries to the train system, even if I need to spend money in lawyers, but definitively, we should boycott any new meeting that need to use the Belgium/Netherlands train system. I'm sorry about this but, even if I was quite the last days with all the noise about the trains, and I was thinking that people was exaggerating, now I realize that the people was completely right, THEY HAVE THE WORST TRAIN SYSTEM IN THE WORLD. So please, IAOC/secretariat. For any NEXT MEETING make sure that the official web sites for transport are % ACCURATE, 100% is not enough. Regards, Jordi From: Gregory Lebovitz gregory.i...@gmail.com Reply-To: gregory.i...@gmail.com Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:44:19 -0700 To: 78attend...@ietf.org Subject: [78attendees] Maastricht to Brussels-Nat-Aero, Sat 07:09 Hey all, I'm heading to the Brussels airport on Saturday morning, early. I've got a 07:09 train from Maastricht city center, with two transfers, that gets me into Bruxelles-Nat-Aero at 09:10, in time for my 11:00 flight. Anyone from NH want to share a cab to the train station, and make the journey together? -- IETF related email from Gregory M. Lebovitz Juniper Networks ___ 78attendees mailing list 78attend...@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/78attendees ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ 78attendees mailing list 78attend...@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/78attendees ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you
