Re: So, where to repeat?
Michael == Michael Richardson m...@sandelman.ca writes: Michael but please, not Paris in the summer... nor Orlando on Michael spring break) ps: I'm really upset about Orlando in March. We did that in back in December 1998, and it seemed a failure to me. Maybe this will be a remote meeting for me. (go rps WG, go!!) The hallways were WAY WAY too small for the people, thank god they didn't serve the cookies there, and the social event... nice band, but so loud, one couldn't talk to each other. I understand that perhaps we won't be in the same conference centre, and maybe NBC Universal will do a better job... but. -- Michael Richardson mcr+i...@sandelman.ca, Sandelman Software Works pgpNKYCx7u144.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: So, where to repeat?
On 08/09/2012 09:17 AM, Yoav Nir wrote: On Aug 9, 2012, at 6:07 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: offlist. Not so much Geoff, Frankfurt is a city in Germany. I believe the IETF has never been there. Two more tidbits: - It's a huge aviation hub. There are direct flights from everywhere, similar to CDG, Heathrow, or Schiphol - Unlike Paris, London and Amsterdam, it's not a great tourist attraction, so conceivably it would be cheaper. I've found it relatively inexpensive, clean and very easy to get to. Other than those two tidbits about it, I've no idea what is to be accomplished by someone's randomly throwing out the names of cities for a discussion like this, especially when threads like these always have a great deal of trouble staying focused on the /principle/ rather than haggling the details. The principle would be to go to aviation hubs so as to minimize the collective pain. Most people from the US going to Prague, would have a connection in Frankfurt, so a meeting in Frankfurt would reduce the amount of flights. This is why I threw out a not so random city name - Frankfurt. Yoav On 8/8/2012 12:24 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: Frankfurt? On Aug 8, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Dave Crocker dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/8/2012 11:46 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? shockingly, amsterdam can't handle the ietf. wrong mix of resources. really. paris appears to have broad crime and work-ethic patterns that also are problematic, not just at the concorde. to be clear: i'm speaking for myself. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net Scanned by Check Point Total Security Gateway.
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Ole == Ole Jacobsen o...@cisco.com writes: Ole On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So I'm confused... We're we talking about the possibility of sticking to one European city, one north American city and one Asian city and not picking various cities throughout the world. Ole Oh, I see. My reading was that we would focus on small number of Ole cities in each region, especially since we cannot depend on ONE Ole being always available for our dates, host and sponsorship Ole notwithstanding. I understood what Ole did. I think that over a decade, the small number would go from ~7 to perhaps 2 in each region. That's because we'd wind up signing multi-year contracts with hotels that we liked. (which is, I understand, why we repeated in Minneapolis)
Re: So, where to repeat?
Frankfurt as the Minneapolis of Europe: central, well-connected, cold, unglamorous. -T On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Geoff Mulligan ge...@proto6.com wrote: On 08/09/2012 09:17 AM, Yoav Nir wrote: On Aug 9, 2012, at 6:07 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: offlist. Not so much Geoff, Frankfurt is a city in Germany. I believe the IETF has never been there. Two more tidbits: - It's a huge aviation hub. There are direct flights from everywhere, similar to CDG, Heathrow, or Schiphol - Unlike Paris, London and Amsterdam, it's not a great tourist attraction, so conceivably it would be cheaper. I've found it relatively inexpensive, clean and very easy to get to. Other than those two tidbits about it, I've no idea what is to be accomplished by someone's randomly throwing out the names of cities for a discussion like this, especially when threads like these always have a great deal of trouble staying focused on the /principle/ rather than haggling the details. The principle would be to go to aviation hubs so as to minimize the collective pain. Most people from the US going to Prague, would have a connection in Frankfurt, so a meeting in Frankfurt would reduce the amount of flights. This is why I threw out a not so random city name - Frankfurt. Yoav On 8/8/2012 12:24 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: Frankfurt? On Aug 8, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Dave Crocker dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/8/2012 11:46 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? shockingly, amsterdam can't handle the ietf. wrong mix of resources. really. paris appears to have broad crime and work-ethic patterns that also are problematic, not just at the concorde. to be clear: i'm speaking for myself. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net Scanned by Check Point Total Security Gateway.
Re: So, where to repeat?
On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Tim Bray wrote: Frankfurt as the Minneapolis of Europe: central, well-connected, cold, unglamorous. -T Plus expensive and generally unsuitable for a meeting such as ours, until the day Bit's and Bites turns into a 200,000 square foot tradeshow, just kidding! :-) I agree with the well-connected, it's my main gateway to Europe these days, especially because of the great train service, getting to Amsterdam for example is very easy. Ole
RE: So, where to repeat?
Minneapolis is infinitely more glamorous Frankfurt .. -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tim Bray Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:30 PM To: Geoff Mulligan Cc: Dave Crocker; ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? Frankfurt as the Minneapolis of Europe: central, well-connected, cold, unglamorous. -T On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Geoff Mulligan ge...@proto6.com wrote: On 08/09/2012 09:17 AM, Yoav Nir wrote: On Aug 9, 2012, at 6:07 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: offlist. Not so much Geoff, Frankfurt is a city in Germany. I believe the IETF has never been there. Two more tidbits: - It's a huge aviation hub. There are direct flights from everywhere, similar to CDG, Heathrow, or Schiphol - Unlike Paris, London and Amsterdam, it's not a great tourist attraction, so conceivably it would be cheaper. I've found it relatively inexpensive, clean and very easy to get to. Other than those two tidbits about it, I've no idea what is to be accomplished by someone's randomly throwing out the names of cities for a discussion like this, especially when threads like these always have a great deal of trouble staying focused on the /principle/ rather than haggling the details. The principle would be to go to aviation hubs so as to minimize the collective pain. Most people from the US going to Prague, would have a connection in Frankfurt, so a meeting in Frankfurt would reduce the amount of flights. This is why I threw out a not so random city name - Frankfurt. Yoav On 8/8/2012 12:24 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: Frankfurt? On Aug 8, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Dave Crocker dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/8/2012 11:46 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? shockingly, amsterdam can't handle the ietf. wrong mix of resources. really. paris appears to have broad crime and work-ethic patterns that also are problematic, not just at the concorde. to be clear: i'm speaking for myself. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net Scanned by Check Point Total Security Gateway.
Re: So, where to repeat?
The tourist website www.minneapolis.org uses the slogan City by Nature. I think An infinitely more glamorous Frankfurt would be an improvement. . On Aug 10, 2012, at 10:01 PM, Richard Shockey wrote: Minneapolis is infinitely more glamorous Frankfurt .. -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tim Bray Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:30 PM To: Geoff Mulligan Cc: Dave Crocker; ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? Frankfurt as the Minneapolis of Europe: central, well-connected, cold, unglamorous. -T
Re: So, where to repeat?
On 8/10/12 9:30 AM, Tim Bray wrote: Frankfurt as the Minneapolis of Europe: central, well-connected, cold, unglamorous. -T Also home of the ECB and the Bundesbank which shows when you try to book a large event into the big hotels near the hauptbahnhof. The why have we not met in this large city which I think is more appropriate then some of our others choices aspect of this thrice annual discussion seems a bit played out. On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Geoff Mulligan ge...@proto6.com wrote: On 08/09/2012 09:17 AM, Yoav Nir wrote: On Aug 9, 2012, at 6:07 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: offlist. Not so much Geoff, Frankfurt is a city in Germany. I believe the IETF has never been there. Two more tidbits: - It's a huge aviation hub. There are direct flights from everywhere, similar to CDG, Heathrow, or Schiphol - Unlike Paris, London and Amsterdam, it's not a great tourist attraction, so conceivably it would be cheaper. I've found it relatively inexpensive, clean and very easy to get to. Other than those two tidbits about it, I've no idea what is to be accomplished by someone's randomly throwing out the names of cities for a discussion like this, especially when threads like these always have a great deal of trouble staying focused on the /principle/ rather than haggling the details. The principle would be to go to aviation hubs so as to minimize the collective pain. Most people from the US going to Prague, would have a connection in Frankfurt, so a meeting in Frankfurt would reduce the amount of flights. This is why I threw out a not so random city name - Frankfurt. Yoav On 8/8/2012 12:24 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: Frankfurt? On Aug 8, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Dave Crocker dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/8/2012 11:46 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? shockingly, amsterdam can't handle the ietf. wrong mix of resources. really. paris appears to have broad crime and work-ethic patterns that also are problematic, not just at the concorde. to be clear: i'm speaking for myself. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net Scanned by Check Point Total Security Gateway.
RE: So, where to repeat?
The tourist website www.minneapolis.org uses the slogan City by Nature. I think An infinitely more glamorous Frankfurt would be an improvement. [RS ] If you prefer a globally dysfunctional airport and a city run by bankers ..then yes its potentially more 'glamorous'. Granted they do have a world class Christmas Market in season. If you want the center of Europe .. Munchen. You could think about Berlin but then you have a totally non existent disfunctional airport. Wait a few years out and you can rethink Washington DC. A totally functional 5 runway international airport .. a full metro rail from the airport to the city and all of Washington's many nonexistent charms. . On Aug 10, 2012, at 10:01 PM, Richard Shockey wrote: Minneapolis is infinitely more glamorous Frankfurt .. -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tim Bray Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:30 PM To: Geoff Mulligan Cc: Dave Crocker; ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? Frankfurt as the Minneapolis of Europe: central, well-connected, cold, unglamorous. -T
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Original Message - From: Geoff Mulligan ge...@proto6.com To: Richard Shockey rich...@shockey.us Cc: ietf@ietf.org Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 5:34 PM I also would vote to return to Minneapolis again and again even permanently. tp So, would I despite London 2014 being only a train ride away. Minneapolis has the flights, and flights across the Atlantic are so much cheaper than those across Europe, has the range of hotels (and has the possibility of extra-mural interests, although it is travel and hotel costs that dominate my decision-making) Tom Petch /tp Geoff On Aug 6, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Richard Shockey rich...@shockey.us wrote: [RS ] +1 and no employer ever argued that going to Minneapolis was a boondoggle. The Hilton in Minneapolis of all the IETF meetings I’ve attended has the most optimal layout of meeting rooms etc. If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and the hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more attendees). Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend the vast majority of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy if we meet there in March and November. Mary On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) chris.dearl...@baesystems.com wrote: I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that I have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego). And of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday night in your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least it is from here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was staying fairly cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my employer, and I didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper, just better). Paris has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I felt less location constrained. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) [mailto:nurit.sprec...@nsn.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 15:07 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. When you are not close (time), flight cost may become higher in the priority (over hotem) Flying to Vancouver for me for example is the most expensive tripeven though the city is amazing and the host was wonderful! -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:56 PM To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has also been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.) Contrast with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right in the city. Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking a break to go to a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and so on. (I'm deliberately not including tourism here.) However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible would be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those for me. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
offlist. Geoff, Frankfurt is a city in Germany. I believe the IETF has never been there. Other than those two tidbits about it, I've no idea what is to be accomplished by someone's randomly throwing out the names of cities for a discussion like this, especially when threads like these always have a great deal of trouble staying focused on the /principle/ rather than haggling the details. d/ On 8/8/2012 12:24 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: Frankfurt? On Aug 8, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Dave Crocker dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/8/2012 11:46 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? shockingly, amsterdam can't handle the ietf. wrong mix of resources. really. paris appears to have broad crime and work-ethic patterns that also are problematic, not just at the concorde. to be clear: i'm speaking for myself. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So, where to repeat?
On 8/8/2012 1:52 PM, John Levine wrote: ps. btw, what is it that you think is different about this from the way we /do/ discuss protocol specs? People discussing venues are less willing to believe that anyone else's experience or issues differ from their own. A common problem in /any/ IETF discussion, technical or otherwise, is the tendency of speakers to live within two views: 1. If it is good enough for me, it must be good enough for everyone 2. If it is unacceptable to me, it must be unacceptable for everyone. We are not a very empathetic crowd. I can't say that I see the 'less' that you assert. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So, where to repeat?
On 8/9/2012 8:07 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: offlist. weird. i really did prune the list. sorry. but then, it's not as if my concern applies only to Geoff's note... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On Aug 9, 2012, at 6:07 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: offlist. Not so much Geoff, Frankfurt is a city in Germany. I believe the IETF has never been there. Two more tidbits: - It's a huge aviation hub. There are direct flights from everywhere, similar to CDG, Heathrow, or Schiphol - Unlike Paris, London and Amsterdam, it's not a great tourist attraction, so conceivably it would be cheaper. Other than those two tidbits about it, I've no idea what is to be accomplished by someone's randomly throwing out the names of cities for a discussion like this, especially when threads like these always have a great deal of trouble staying focused on the /principle/ rather than haggling the details. The principle would be to go to aviation hubs so as to minimize the collective pain. Most people from the US going to Prague, would have a connection in Frankfurt, so a meeting in Frankfurt would reduce the amount of flights. Yoav On 8/8/2012 12:24 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: Frankfurt? On Aug 8, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Dave Crocker dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/8/2012 11:46 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? shockingly, amsterdam can't handle the ietf. wrong mix of resources. really. paris appears to have broad crime and work-ethic patterns that also are problematic, not just at the concorde. to be clear: i'm speaking for myself. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net Scanned by Check Point Total Security Gateway.
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So I'm confused... We're we talking about the possibility of sticking to one European city, one north American city and one Asian city and not picking various cities throughout the world. Oh, I see. My reading was that we would focus on small number of cities in each region, especially since we cannot depend on ONE being always available for our dates, host and sponsorship notwithstanding. Ole
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Frankfurt has been considered. Turns out that it is one of the most expensive cities in all of Europe to have a conference. It is also geared mostly towards large tradeshows. The Frankfurt Messe is about the size of your average Olympic Park, just walking from the nearest hotel to your venue Hall could take 15 minutes. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Besides where to to repeat, some new places to go that are cheaper and closer to me (and possible to others, and perhaps not so bad to many). Sao Paolo, Mexico City, Miami, Madrid, Cancun, Santiago, Panama, San Juan Regards, as On 9 Aug 2012, at 12:22, Ole Jacobsen wrote: Frankfurt has been considered. Turns out that it is one of the most expensive cities in all of Europe to have a conference. It is also geared mostly towards large tradeshows. The Frankfurt Messe is about the size of your average Olympic Park, just walking from the nearest hotel to your venue Hall could take 15 minutes. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Hi, For new how is Dubai or Barcelona? Repeat: I would like Prague, Vancouver, Quebec! Regards, D On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Arturo Servin aser...@lacnic.net wrote: Besides where to to repeat, some new places to go that are cheaper and closer to me (and possible to others, and perhaps not so bad to many). Sao Paolo, Mexico City, Miami, Madrid, Cancun, Santiago, Panama, San Juan Regards, as On 9 Aug 2012, at 12:22, Ole Jacobsen wrote: Frankfurt has been considered. Turns out that it is one of the most expensive cities in all of Europe to have a conference. It is also geared mostly towards large tradeshows. The Frankfurt Messe is about the size of your average Olympic Park, just walking from the nearest hotel to your venue Hall could take 15 minutes. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo
Re: So, where to repeat?
Simon == Simon Perreault simon.perrea...@viagenie.ca writes: Simon Le 2012-08-08 12:34, Geoff Mulligan a écrit : I also would vote to return to Minneapolis again and again even permanently. Simon Does nobody care about going to new places so that new people Simon are exposed to the IETF and may start getting involved? Simon We've seen this positive effect many times when we went Simon outside our comfort zone... Simon, it *is* important. But, we don't have to go to a new place every meeting. If 1/3 meetings are in North America, I see no reason why we can't return to places that work. I think the same mostly applies to Europe as well. (We don't have to go back to the *same* place every year, although there are advantages of that. So a Paris/Prague would be fine, but please, not Paris in the summer... nor Orlando on spring break) Let's innovate for that third meeting, realizing that we do not yet have a preferred place in Asia, or any place in Africa or South America, but maybe we should. -- ] He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life! | firewalls [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON|net architect[ ] m...@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[ Kyoto Plus: watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzx1ycLXQSE then sign the petition.
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Frankfurt? On Aug 8, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Dave Crocker dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: On 8/8/2012 11:46 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? shockingly, amsterdam can't handle the ietf. wrong mix of resources. really. paris appears to have broad crime and work-ethic patterns that also are problematic, not just at the concorde. to be clear: i'm speaking for myself. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
So I'm confused... We're we talking about the possibility of sticking to one European city, one north American city and one Asian city and not picking various cities throughout the world. I was just suggesting picking -a- city in Europe that was not multiple hops from most US hubs. Prague, while a nice city, isn't one hop and as Dave pointed out this adds costs and time, just as would choosing a US city that is multiple hops from major European hubs. I loved Vancouver and would go back there over and over again. I like Minneapolis for convenience and venue and would go there every time. I liked Prague, both times, but had trouble getting there both times and it did add time and cost. Geoff On Aug 8, 2012, at 1:06 PM, Ole Jacobsen o...@cisco.com wrote: Geoff, What are you talking about? Of course we are considering all of those places. We are going to London in 2014 for example, we went to Paris this year. But, like with all popular places, finding venues available for OUR dates is not easy. Add to that the costs and you will understand why we don't meet in London or Paris or Frankfurt or Amsterdam more often. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam?
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? On Aug 7, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Ole Jacobsen o...@cisco.com wrote: You said about Prague: ...[do] folks who live outside of that region not care about the additional hop of travel to get to it? This gets cited often, and I don't really understand why. There are VERY few European cities that are reachable directly from the US (or Asia for that matter). Most require transiting some kind of major hub (London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam to name a few). There will always be exceptions, I am sure you can get to Stockholm directly from the US East Coast, but not from the West Coast. I am sure a very large percentage of the IETF attendees from the US went through London or Frankfurt (or a small number of alternatives) to get to Stockholm on the two occasions when we met there. Since I travel to Norway on a more or less regular basis, I am used to (and quite happy to) go through Frankfurt or London, it's just a fact of life especially if you factor in the preferred carrier (personal or corporate). Prague may be an extra hop, but depending on schedules you might well get to your destination (hotel) just as quickly as you would for getting from CDG to central Paris or LHR to central London. If we restrict European cities to the ones with direct flight connections from other continents, we're really limiting the choices. Let's be a little more realistic and consider actual travel pain from the top hubs in Europe, assuming we can't (always) meet in those places. I do understand that the extra hop does add some cost, which is why I always consider trains as a reasonable alternative, albeit not a particularly fast one. For example, the cost for a First Class train ticket from Frankfurt to Prague was 98 Euros. I am not suggesting that this is always going to be a reasonable alternative, and I am worried that the mere mention of train on this list may result in a flame war, but still... Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo
Re: So, where to repeat?
+1 Regards, as On 8 Aug 2012, at 16:40, Michael Richardson wrote: Let's innovate for that third meeting, realizing that we do not yet have a preferred place in Asia, or any place in Africa or South America, but maybe we should.
Re: So, where to repeat?
On Aug 8, 2012, at 3:40 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: Simon Does nobody care about going to new places so that new people Simon are exposed to the IETF and may start getting involved? Simon We've seen this positive effect many times when we went Simon outside our comfort zone... Simon, it *is* important. But, we don't have to go to a new place every meeting. If 1/3 meetings are in North America, I see no reason why we can't return to places that work. I think the same mostly applies to Europe as well. (We don't have to go back to the *same* place every year, although there are advantages of that. So a Paris/Prague would be fine, but please, not Paris in the summer... nor Orlando on spring break) Let's innovate for that third meeting, realizing that we do not yet have a preferred place in Asia, or any place in Africa or South America, but maybe we should. I think this is a fine idea. And while some see value in going to new places so as to expose new people to the IETF, there is one benefit to revisiting venues that has not been given. By revisiting well trodden venues, attendees have the opportunity to learn what works for them as far as hotel, travel, etc… and can learn to optimize based on their needs and hopefully that will enable them to reduce costs in both money, time, and mental energy. -andy
Re: So, where to repeat?
On 8/9/2012 11:37 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: Frankfurt is a city in Germany. I believe the IETF has never been ... I've found it relatively inexpensive, clean and very easy to get to. Ole's comment was reflecting secretariat and IAOC research. Individual experience can be very misleading here. Sometimes, yes, it can point to approaches that haven't been considered. But the 'sometimes' is meant as a polite way of saying 'almost never'. As someone who has challenged the IETF's venue selection process vigorously for 20 years, I am forced to admit that any possible problems in the process seem to be strategic, not tactical. I haven't seen any evidence that the current process obtains distorted data or makes silly decisions in the /details/ of researching or arranging a given city. Anyone thinking otherwise needs to employ the full set of requirements for an IETF meeting, not merely a stray, isolated item, such as discounted hotel price. Other than those two tidbits about it, I've no idea what is to be accomplished by someone's randomly throwing out the names of cities for a discussion like this, especially when threads like these always have a great deal of trouble staying focused on the /principle/ rather than haggling the details. The principle would be to go to aviation hubs so as to minimize the collective pain. Most people from the US going to Prague, would have a connection in Frankfurt, so a meeting in Frankfurt would reduce the amount of flights. This is why I threw out a not so random city name - Frankfurt. Indeed, random was the wrong word. That word is often used incorrectly. The correct word is arbitrary. It is frankly entirely arbitrary to suggest a particular city, in terms of the a directed discussion about the /approach/ of choosing cities. It presumes that the existing processes haven't researched most choices for Europe, Asia, or North America. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
RE: So, where to repeat?
I haven't been at any IETF recently, but from my previous experience, I agree with several commenters about these cities: * MINNEAPOLIS consistently works well for IETF meetings. * VANCOUVER consistently works well for IETF meetings. * DUBLIN has good air transport links, and would have rated MUCH higher in many folks' views if only the meeting either had been downtown (or in another part of town with a range of hotel and restaurant options to choose from). I very much hope the IAOC will look into Dublin again, but a meeting downtown or otherwise with a range of hotel and restaurant options. * WASHINGTON DC worked well for several meetings in the 1990s and would be worth re-examining. It has very good air transport links, and the Metro Rail (subway) is being extended out west to Dulles International Airport. [MetroRail to Reston/Wiehle Ave opens in 2013; extending the last few miles from there to Dulles Airport is expected circa 2016.] I also agree with several commenters about these more general meeting aspects: * When I attend an IETF, I'm working, not playing tourist. So I'm quite happy to meet someplace cold in winter or someplace wet during rainy season -- provided one can get around in a reasonable way. * Tourist-oriented venues often ring alarm bells in the management approval processes for many organisations. As examples, meetings in Hawaii or Las Vegas (any time) likely will raise more management-approval questions than meeting in Minneapolis during the local winter. * Locations convenient (using public transport) to a major airline hub are preferable, given our global scope. Separately, despite the best efforts of the IAOC (and their predecessors), it has been disappointing that most A/P region locations have been relatively expensive. Yours, Ran
Re: So, where to repeat?
--On Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:55 -0700 Dave Crocker dcroc...@bbiw.net wrote: This is why I threw out a not so random city name - Frankfurt. Indeed, random was the wrong word. That word is often used incorrectly. The correct word is arbitrary. It is frankly entirely arbitrary to suggest a particular city, in terms of the a directed discussion about the /approach/ of choosing cities. It presumes that the existing processes haven't researched most choices for Europe, Asia, or North America. Dave, Without suggesting that Frankfurt has not been carefully researched (I gather it has and have some personal experience with meeting arrangements, not just individual visits that leads me to agree with the conclusion, whether you approve of such personal experiences or not), I don't think you can dismiss it as either random or even arbitrary. One of the major criteria that has often been suggested --I think even by you-- is major airline hub. As far as I know, there are four such hubs in Europe: London (where we have met and are planning to meet again), Paris (where we have met), Amsterdam (where we have met), and Frankfurt. I would consider Copenhagen, Munich (where we have met), and a few other places as secondary hubs; YMMD. I think its being the only place on that first list where we have not met makes why not Frankfurt an entirely reasonable and actually highly focused and predictable question. If he had said why not Köln-Bonn or why not Nice or any of dozens of other smaller, non-hub airports, arbitrary would have been in order. But Frankfurt is no more arbitrary than Chicago, Dallas, or New York -- there may be perfectly good reasons to avoid all three (although we have met in Chicago and Dallas), but it seems to me that asking about _any_ airline hub city that significant can certainly not be dismissed as arbitrary. john
RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Why not consider Istanbul? It's another nice harbor city. Has a series of world class hotels like Grand Hyatt, Hilton, InterContinental, Radisson Blu but also less expensive hotels, close to each other. Cheers, Mehmet -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Geoff Mulligan Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 8:47 PM To: Ole Jacobsen Cc: Richard Shockey; dcroc...@bbiw.net; ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? On Aug 7, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Ole Jacobsen o...@cisco.com wrote: You said about Prague: ...[do] folks who live outside of that region not care about the additional hop of travel to get to it? This gets cited often, and I don't really understand why. There are VERY few European cities that are reachable directly from the US (or Asia for that matter). Most require transiting some kind of major hub (London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam to name a few). There will always be exceptions, I am sure you can get to Stockholm directly from the US East Coast, but not from the West Coast. I am sure a very large percentage of the IETF attendees from the US went through London or Frankfurt (or a small number of alternatives) to get to Stockholm on the two occasions when we met there. Since I travel to Norway on a more or less regular basis, I am used to (and quite happy to) go through Frankfurt or London, it's just a fact of life especially if you factor in the preferred carrier (personal or corporate). Prague may be an extra hop, but depending on schedules you might well get to your destination (hotel) just as quickly as you would for getting from CDG to central Paris or LHR to central London. If we restrict European cities to the ones with direct flight connections from other continents, we're really limiting the choices. Let's be a little more realistic and consider actual travel pain from the top hubs in Europe, assuming we can't (always) meet in those places. I do understand that the extra hop does add some cost, which is why I always consider trains as a reasonable alternative, albeit not a particularly fast one. For example, the cost for a First Class train ticket from Frankfurt to Prague was 98 Euros. I am not suggesting that this is always going to be a reasonable alternative, and I am worried that the mere mention of train on this list may result in a flame war, but still... Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo
RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Istanbul, Dubai, and similar places will not allow all of us in the community to participate in the meetings -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:20 PM To: ext Geoff Mulligan; Ole Jacobsen Cc: ietf@ietf.org; dcroc...@bbiw.net; Richard Shockey Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) Why not consider Istanbul? It's another nice harbor city. Has a series of world class hotels like Grand Hyatt, Hilton, InterContinental, Radisson Blu but also less expensive hotels, close to each other. Cheers, Mehmet -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Geoff Mulligan Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 8:47 PM To: Ole Jacobsen Cc: Richard Shockey; dcroc...@bbiw.net; ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? On Aug 7, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Ole Jacobsen o...@cisco.com wrote: You said about Prague: ...[do] folks who live outside of that region not care about the additional hop of travel to get to it? This gets cited often, and I don't really understand why. There are VERY few European cities that are reachable directly from the US (or Asia for that matter). Most require transiting some kind of major hub (London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam to name a few). There will always be exceptions, I am sure you can get to Stockholm directly from the US East Coast, but not from the West Coast. I am sure a very large percentage of the IETF attendees from the US went through London or Frankfurt (or a small number of alternatives) to get to Stockholm on the two occasions when we met there. Since I travel to Norway on a more or less regular basis, I am used to (and quite happy to) go through Frankfurt or London, it's just a fact of life especially if you factor in the preferred carrier (personal or corporate). Prague may be an extra hop, but depending on schedules you might well get to your destination (hotel) just as quickly as you would for getting from CDG to central Paris or LHR to central London. If we restrict European cities to the ones with direct flight connections from other continents, we're really limiting the choices. Let's be a little more realistic and consider actual travel pain from the top hubs in Europe, assuming we can't (always) meet in those places. I do understand that the extra hop does add some cost, which is why I always consider trains as a reasonable alternative, albeit not a particularly fast one. For example, the cost for a First Class train ticket from Frankfurt to Prague was 98 Euros. I am not suggesting that this is always going to be a reasonable alternative, and I am worried that the mere mention of train on this list may result in a flame war, but still... Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo
RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Let me say that a different way. We sometimes have to tolerate countries, like the US, who a fussy about visas or immigration procedures for people coming from specific other countries. I wish we didn't. But, as soon as a country says if you have a passport from X, you aren't getting in, don't even bother to apply for a visa, they should be off our list of possibilities. john --On Thursday, August 09, 2012 22:22 +0200 Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) nurit.sprec...@nsn.com wrote: Istanbul, Dubai, and similar places will not allow all of us in the community to participate in the meetings -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:20 PM To: ext Geoff Mulligan; Ole Jacobsen Cc: ietf@ietf.org; dcroc...@bbiw.net; Richard Shockey Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) Why not consider Istanbul? It's another nice harbor city. Has a series of world class hotels like Grand Hyatt, Hilton, InterContinental, Radisson Blu but also less expensive hotels, close to each other.
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Yes, and sadly that rules out really good venues such as Kuala Lumpur, quite possibly the least expensive (hotel wise) suitable location in Asia. Ole J. Jacobsen Editor Publisher http://cisco.com/ipj Sent from my iPhone On 9 Aug 2012, at 13:42, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote: Let me say that a different way. We sometimes have to tolerate countries, like the US, who a fussy about visas or immigration procedures for people coming from specific other countries. I wish we didn't. But, as soon as a country says if you have a passport from X, you aren't getting in, don't even bother to apply for a visa, they should be off our list of possibilities. john --On Thursday, August 09, 2012 22:22 +0200 Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) nurit.sprec...@nsn.com wrote: Istanbul, Dubai, and similar places will not allow all of us in the community to participate in the meetings -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:20 PM To: ext Geoff Mulligan; Ole Jacobsen Cc: ietf@ietf.org; dcroc...@bbiw.net; Richard Shockey Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) Why not consider Istanbul? It's another nice harbor city. Has a series of world class hotels like Grand Hyatt, Hilton, InterContinental, Radisson Blu but also less expensive hotels, close to each other.
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On 8/9/12 2:42 PM, John C Klensin wrote: Let me say that a different way. We sometimes have to tolerate countries, like the US, who a fussy about visas or immigration procedures for people coming from specific other countries. I wish we didn't. But, as soon as a country says if you have a passport from X, you aren't getting in, don't even bother to apply for a visa, they should be off our list of possibilities. Agreed. Dare I say that we need a requirements document? ;-) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Yes, and sadly that rules out really good venues such as Kuala Lumpur, quite possibly the least expensive (hotel wise) suitable location in Asia. The IAOC researched this recently, quite thoroughly; Ole and I are both biased towards wanting it. (I lived there for a year.) This is worth mentioning because the MY formal rule is not strict prohibition but a formal visa process that is so onerous as to equate to a prohibition. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
But, as soon as a country says if you have a passport from X, you aren't getting in, don't even bother to apply for a visa, they should be off our list of possibilities. It is sad to hear this. I actually never heard such restrictions for people travelling to Turkey. BTW: A lot of countries, including Israel, don't need a visa for Turkey. For others it is technically a non-issue to get it at the border. Beside many European cities there are direct flights to Istanbul from: Los Angeles, Washington, Chicago, New York, Beijing, Tokyo, Seoul, Bangkok, and Tel Aviv. Cheers, Mehmet -Original Message- From: ext Ole Jacobsen (ole) [mailto:o...@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 10:48 PM To: John C Klensin Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Geoff Mulligan; Richard Shockey; ietf@ietf.org; dcroc...@bbiw.net Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) Yes, and sadly that rules out really good venues such as Kuala Lumpur, quite possibly the least expensive (hotel wise) suitable location in Asia. Ole J. Jacobsen Editor Publisher http://cisco.com/ipj Sent from my iPhone On 9 Aug 2012, at 13:42, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote: Let me say that a different way. We sometimes have to tolerate countries, like the US, who a fussy about visas or immigration procedures for people coming from specific other countries. I wish we didn't. But, as soon as a country says if you have a passport from X, you aren't getting in, don't even bother to apply for a visa, they should be off our list of possibilities. john --On Thursday, August 09, 2012 22:22 +0200 Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) nurit.sprec...@nsn.com wrote: Istanbul, Dubai, and similar places will not allow all of us in the community to participate in the meetings -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:20 PM To: ext Geoff Mulligan; Ole Jacobsen Cc: ietf@ietf.org; dcroc...@bbiw.net; Richard Shockey Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) Why not consider Istanbul? It's another nice harbor city. Has a series of world class hotels like Grand Hyatt, Hilton, InterContinental, Radisson Blu but also less expensive hotels, close to each other.
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
We HAVE a requirements document. Ole On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: Agreed. Dare I say that we need a requirements document? ;-) Peter Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/
Re: So, where to repeat?
On 8/9/12 3:31 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: We HAVE a requirements document. Aha, so it's just that people at the mic haven't read the draft. That never happens at one of our meetings, does it? ;-) Unfortunately, I can't seem to find this requirements document in the datatracker... Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
This is worth mentioning because the MY formal rule is not strict prohibition but a formal visa process that is so onerous as to equate to a prohibition. Wouldn't that rule out the United States? It is my impression that getting a US visa for someone with a Cuban or Iranian passport is effectively impossible. R's, John
RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
I'll bet Dublin would be rated higher if the meetings had been downtown. Indeed. Mehmet -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Crocker Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:01 AM To: Tim Chown Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) I'll bet Dublin would be rated higher if the meetings had been downtown. Same for Vienna. Steve On Aug 7, 2012, at 5:55 PM, Tim Chown wrote: Hi, My top three repeat venues would be Prague, Minneapolis and Vancouver. Great meeting venues, with everything you need nearby. My least favoured venues have been Dublin, Vienna and Maastricht. Of course, you have to experiment to find good repeat venues... Tim
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
I also would vote to return to Minneapolis again and again even permanently. Geoff On Aug 6, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Richard Shockey rich...@shockey.us wrote: [RS ] +1 and no employer ever argued that going to Minneapolis was a boondoggle. The Hilton in Minneapolis of all the IETF meetings I’ve attended has the most optimal layout of meeting rooms etc. If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and the hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more attendees). Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend the vast majority of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy if we meet there in March and November. Mary On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) chris.dearl...@baesystems.com wrote: I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that I have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego). And of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday night in your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least it is from here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was staying fairly cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my employer, and I didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper, just better). Paris has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I felt less location constrained. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) [mailto:nurit.sprec...@nsn.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 15:07 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. When you are not close (time), flight cost may become higher in the priority (over hotem) Flying to Vancouver for me for example is the most expensive tripeven though the city is amazing and the host was wonderful! -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:56 PM To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has also been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.) Contrast with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right in the city. Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking a break to go to a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and so on. (I'm deliberately not including tourism here.) However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible would be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those for me. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniele Ceccarelli Sent: 06 August
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
The Orlando airport is a nightmare almost any time and will be even worse during this upcoming IETF. When I had my FlyClear card it was the only airport where I ever felt that it was necessary. Avoiding Orlando during the many weeks a spring break would have been good. Geoff On Aug 6, 2012, at 6:14 PM, Michael Richardson mcr+i...@sandelman.ca wrote: I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel cost for a week. note: I pay my own way, and make all my own arrangements. The only meetings where my hotel costs exceeded my transporation costs were the Montreal IETFs (I live in Ottawa). When I've flown I have seldom ever been on direct flights. I *do* avoid the main hotel if the price is poor. I did get the Sheraton Wall (backup hotel IETF84), via hotwire.com, which surprised me. I find staying over saturday night no longer has any affect on my travel costs. I do prefer returning to the same places, and I do like Minneapolis. (Yes, even in March and November) I am more concerned that we have three north-american IETFs in a row (Vancouver, Atlanta, Orlando), and 4 of the next 6 are in North America. (Not counting Hawaii as North America for the purposes of travel budgets, or it's be 5/7) I'm also concerned about going popular places (Quebec, Orlando) during peak tourist season. -- Michael Richardson mcr+i...@sandelman.ca, Sandelman Software Works
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
I liked the hotel and prague was wonderful, but it didn't seem easy to get to cheaply from the US. Geoff On Aug 6, 2012, at 6:22 PM, Carsten Bormann c...@tzi.org wrote: On Aug 6, 2012, at 16:41, Mary Barnes mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com wrote: If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. +1 a lot. (If we indeed have to choose the US.) Great facility to get work done, good food, reasonable flights. And add Prague as the staple for Europe. Grüße, Carsten
Re: So, where to repeat?
Le 2012-08-08 12:34, Geoff Mulligan a écrit : I also would vote to return to Minneapolis again and again even permanently. Does nobody care about going to new places so that new people are exposed to the IETF and may start getting involved? We've seen this positive effect many times when we went outside our comfort zone... Simon -- DTN made easy, lean, and smart -- http://postellation.viagenie.ca NAT64/DNS64 open-source-- http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca STUN/TURN server -- http://numb.viagenie.ca
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Mileage varies. For me it was the shortest and cheapest flight of any IETF meeting I have attended. Yoav On Aug 8, 2012, at 7:41 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: I liked the hotel and prague was wonderful, but it didn't seem easy to get to cheaply from the US. Geoff On Aug 6, 2012, at 6:22 PM, Carsten Bormann c...@tzi.org wrote: On Aug 6, 2012, at 16:41, Mary Barnes mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com wrote: If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. +1 a lot. (If we indeed have to choose the US.) Great facility to get work done, good food, reasonable flights. And add Prague as the staple for Europe. Grüße, Carsten
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
+1 -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Yoav Nir Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:07 PM To: Geoff Mulligan Cc: Carsten Bormann; ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Mileage varies. For me it was the shortest and cheapest flight of any IETF meeting I have attended. Yoav On Aug 8, 2012, at 7:41 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: I liked the hotel and prague was wonderful, but it didn't seem easy to get to cheaply from the US. Geoff On Aug 6, 2012, at 6:22 PM, Carsten Bormann c...@tzi.org wrote: On Aug 6, 2012, at 16:41, Mary Barnes mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com wrote: If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. +1 a lot. (If we indeed have to choose the US.) Great facility to get work done, good food, reasonable flights. And add Prague as the staple for Europe. Grüße, Carsten
Re: So, where to repeat?
On 8/8/12 12:06 PM, Yoav Nir wrote: Mileage varies. For me it was the shortest and cheapest flight of any IETF meeting I have attended. If we discussed protocols the way we discuss venue sites, all would be lost. Oh, this feature works great for me, therefore let's include it in the spec. Perhaps we might consider ending these interminable venue discussions and just complain three times a year when we visit a place that the IAOC has selected? Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/
Re: So, where to repeat?
On 8/8/2012 11:18 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: Perhaps we might consider ending these interminable venue discussions and just complain three times a year when we visit a place that the IAOC has selected? now i'm completely confused. i thought that that was/is exactly what's being done... d/ ps. btw, what is it that you think is different about this from the way we /do/ discuss protocol specs? -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On 8/8/2012 11:46 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam? shockingly, amsterdam can't handle the ietf. wrong mix of resources. really. paris appears to have broad crime and work-ethic patterns that also are problematic, not just at the concorde. to be clear: i'm speaking for myself. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Geoff, What are you talking about? Of course we are considering all of those places. We are going to London in 2014 for example, we went to Paris this year. But, like with all popular places, finding venues available for OUR dates is not easy. Add to that the costs and you will understand why we don't meet in London or Paris or Frankfurt or Amsterdam more often. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Geoff Mulligan wrote: So then why not consider, London, Paris (not the Concorde Lafayette), Frankfurt, Amsterdam?
Re: So, where to repeat?
Hi Peter, At 11:18 08-08-2012, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: If we discussed protocols the way we discuss venue sites, all would be lost. Oh, this feature works great for me, therefore let's include it in the spec. That's how protocols are discussed. :-) Perhaps we might consider ending these interminable venue discussions and just complain three times a year when we visit a place that the IAOC has selected? Here's a quick snapshot. Quebec has been in the exact same location for over 400 years. The city has historic monuments which are insulting to the Americans who failed to capture the city in 1775. [1] Brand-new conference centre, canonical hotel is a Hilton, and boy can I show you some bars... [2] Nothing is a reasonable walk when the average temperature is 32 C. At least not for the average IETF attendee. [3] You'd be eligible to vote if you'd attended an IETF anytime within the past, say, 2 years - or if you were willing to commit to attending the one you vote on if it wins. [4] There are a host of reasons that voting is a stupid decision making process. I thought we knew that. [5] Now, we should maybe calibrate that in something other than USD (maybe in milligrams of gold, or the Economist's Bic Mac index) and also find an independent source on hotel price inflation. [6] According to the stats, since IETF-1, there have been 6 IETF meetings in Minneapolis. Every one of them had significantly lower number of participants than the meeting before and after them... except IETF-44 which was lower than IETF-43 but about the same as IETF-45, but IETF-45 was in Oslo, Norway, and IETF-46 went back up to higher levels again. [7] Maastricht Bans Cannabis Coffee-Shop Tourists [8] The social was held at an abbey that had wonderful dark beer in 1 litre steins. I discovered that it's best to drink only one, if flying home at 30,000 feet the next day. [9] Obviously, not enough Canadians from outside Toronto were asked. Everyone in the country loves to hate Toronto. [10] Regards, -sm 1. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg66962.html 2. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68326.html 3. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68330.html 4. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68655.html 5. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68681.html 6. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68682.html 7. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg68729.html 8. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg69714.html 9. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg70647.html 10. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg70653.html
Re: So, where to repeat?
ps. btw, what is it that you think is different about this from the way we /do/ discuss protocol specs? People discussing venues are less willing to believe that anyone else's experience or issues differ from their own. R's, John
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 10:34 -0600, Geoff Mulligan wrote: I also would vote to return to Minneapolis again and again even permanently. Geoff On Aug 6, 2012, at 2:32 PM, Richard Shockey rich...@shockey.us wrote: [RS ] +1 and no employer ever argued that going to Minneapolis was a boondoggle. I imagine that few employers would ever argue that a trip to Hell would be a boondoggle, either, but that doesn't make it a good idea... The Hilton in Minneapolis of all the IETF meetings I’ve attended has the most optimal layout of meeting rooms etc. If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and the hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more attendees). Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend the vast majority of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy if we meet there in March and November. Mary On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) chris.dearl...@baesystems.com wrote: I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that I have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego). And of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday night in your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least it is from here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was staying fairly cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my employer, and I didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper, just better). Paris has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I felt less location constrained. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) [mailto:nurit.sprec...@nsn.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 15:07 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. When you are not close (time), flight cost may become higher in the priority (over hotem) Flying to Vancouver for me for example is the most expensive tripeven though the city is amazing and the host was wonderful! -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:56 PM To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has also been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.) Contrast with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right in the city. Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking a break to go to a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and so on. (I'm deliberately not including tourism here.) However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible would be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those for me. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 20:13 +0200, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote: +1 Indeed, almost any place in Europe is easier cheaper for me (not to mention less hassle from immigration and customs!) than any place in the US. -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Yoav Nir Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:07 PM To: Geoff Mulligan Cc: Carsten Bormann; ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Mileage varies. For me it was the shortest and cheapest flight of any IETF meeting I have attended. Yoav On Aug 8, 2012, at 7:41 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: I liked the hotel and prague was wonderful, but it didn't seem easy to get to cheaply from the US. Geoff On Aug 6, 2012, at 6:22 PM, Carsten Bormann c...@tzi.org wrote: On Aug 6, 2012, at 16:41, Mary Barnes mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com wrote: If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. +1 a lot. (If we indeed have to choose the US.) Great facility to get work done, good food, reasonable flights. And add Prague as the staple for Europe. Grüße, Carsten
Re: So, where to repeat?
On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 12:18 -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 8/8/12 12:06 PM, Yoav Nir wrote: Mileage varies. For me it was the shortest and cheapest flight of any IETF meeting I have attended. If we discussed protocols the way we discuss venue sites, all would be lost. Oh, this feature works great for me, therefore let's include it in the spec. Perhaps we might consider ending these interminable venue discussions and just complain three times a year when we visit a place that the IAOC has selected? I though we already did that ;-). Peter attachment: face-wink.png
Re: So, where to repeat?
Simon Perreault wrote: Le 2012-08-08 12:34, Geoff Mulligan a écrit : I also would vote to return to Minneapolis again and again even permanently. Does nobody care about going to new places so that new people are exposed to the IETF and may start getting involved? We've seen this positive effect many times when we went outside our comfort zone... Is Miami out of the question? -- HLS
Re: So, where to repeat?
No more so than Orlando where we are going after Atlanta, in my opinion. There exists a whole set of requirements ranging from travel considerations, costs, suitable venue, hotels, and nearby environment to host and sponsorship availability. I see no reason why Miami would be automatically excluded from consideration. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Hector Santos wrote: Simon Perreault wrote: Le 2012-08-08 12:34, Geoff Mulligan a écrit : I also would vote to return to Minneapolis again and again even permanently. Does nobody care about going to new places so that new people are exposed to the IETF and may start getting involved? We've seen this positive effect many times when we went outside our comfort zone... Is Miami out of the question? -- HLS
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
+1 to both of Carsten's suggestions. On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 8:22 PM, Carsten Bormann c...@tzi.org wrote: On Aug 6, 2012, at 16:41, Mary Barnes mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com wrote: If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. +1 a lot. (If we indeed have to choose the US.) Great facility to get work done, good food, reasonable flights. And add Prague as the staple for Europe. Grüße, Carsten
RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
From: John Levine [jo...@taugh.com] It would have cost me more than twice as much as it did to fly to Beijing, for example, if I had taken a direct flight from DFW That's very odd. I see lots of fares from DFW to YVR from Saturday to Saturday via Houston or Denver for in upcoming weeks for under $550, and nonstops for $678. I expect that a chunk of the variance hinges on the qualifier direct, which Mary included and Jon did not. Mary uses a major hub (DFW) and can plausibly take direct flights to many locations. I don't, and I never even consider searching for direct flights. But the market for direct flights is likely to be much thinner than the market for connecting flights, and to be more subject to spot shortages and the vagaries of how airles have laid out their route systems. More disturbing is Mary's later My indirect flight was $1156.23. It'd be useful to get information from someone who really knows airfares as to why that might happen. But I can see from ITA Software that even indirect flights DFW-YVR in the near future can easily reach $650, and higher within the next two weeks. Tickets BOS-YVR (my route) have about the same prices. Dale
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Dear colleagues, On Tue, Aug 07, 2012 at 10:42:10AM -0400, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: I expect that a chunk of the variance hinges on the qualifier While the vagaries of air transport costs fascinate me, I'm not sure how the question of the cost of one route at one time for one person is broadly relevant. The basic fact of having meetings in multiple places (which is a direct consequence of trying to spread the pain of travel) is that sometimes each of us will have an expensive flight. (This is the same reason that I think confusing the scheduling-in-advance question with the venue question is a bad idea.) Dave Crocker's original point was that some venues are good enough that you can tune them to be better. I was sceptical, but upthread we had two proposals: Minneapolis and Prague. Nobody seems to have argued against. Any others? At the plenary in Vancouver we heard go here again, and we've already decided to run that trial in any case. That makes three. Also, many people expressed satisfaction in Québec. Vancouver's Pacific location notwithstanding, this appears to me to suggest that we have one repeat location in Europe and two in North America. This leaves us rather thin in Asia-Pacific. I recall people saying good things about Taipei. The point of all this, in case it isn't clear, is to ask to add a question to the post-meeting survey about specific venues and whether future meetings should try to return to them. Given Arrow paradoxes and so on, I think a short list with yes/no for each is much more likely to yield useful aggregate results than a big list or a rank order. So, I'd like to suggest the following survey item be added to the post-Vancouver survey: Do you support the IETF returning to the very same venue (hotel and meeting facilities) as the last time in the following meetings: - IETF 84, Vancouver (Hyatt) [Y|N] - IETF 82, Taipei (Hyatt and TICC) [Y|N] - IETF 81, Québec (Hilton) [Y|N] - IETF 80, Prague (Hilton) [Y|N] - IETF 73, Minneapolis (Hilton) [Y|N] I suppose we could just add every venue from the last _n_ years, but I'm reluctant to do that because I think it will give too many options. I seem to recall at least some of the previous post-meeting surveys asking this question about the venue we were just in. I think it would be interesting, however, to pick a few popular venues and track their ratings over time. This is merely a suggestion for the IAOC, and I hope they feel free to treat it as a bad idea. (It's also the last I have to say on this topic, since I've used up my bit quota.) Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Why the survey should limit it to the last five meetings... In the long history we experienced additional good places So maybe the survey should be more open and let each list his 3-5 favorable places based on the experience from earlier meetings? Best regards, Nurit -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Andrew Sullivan Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:11 PM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) Dear colleagues, On Tue, Aug 07, 2012 at 10:42:10AM -0400, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: I expect that a chunk of the variance hinges on the qualifier While the vagaries of air transport costs fascinate me, I'm not sure how the question of the cost of one route at one time for one person is broadly relevant. The basic fact of having meetings in multiple places (which is a direct consequence of trying to spread the pain of travel) is that sometimes each of us will have an expensive flight. (This is the same reason that I think confusing the scheduling-in-advance question with the venue question is a bad idea.) Dave Crocker's original point was that some venues are good enough that you can tune them to be better. I was sceptical, but upthread we had two proposals: Minneapolis and Prague. Nobody seems to have argued against. Any others? At the plenary in Vancouver we heard go here again, and we've already decided to run that trial in any case. That makes three. Also, many people expressed satisfaction in Québec. Vancouver's Pacific location notwithstanding, this appears to me to suggest that we have one repeat location in Europe and two in North America. This leaves us rather thin in Asia-Pacific. I recall people saying good things about Taipei. The point of all this, in case it isn't clear, is to ask to add a question to the post-meeting survey about specific venues and whether future meetings should try to return to them. Given Arrow paradoxes and so on, I think a short list with yes/no for each is much more likely to yield useful aggregate results than a big list or a rank order. So, I'd like to suggest the following survey item be added to the post-Vancouver survey: Do you support the IETF returning to the very same venue (hotel and meeting facilities) as the last time in the following meetings: - IETF 84, Vancouver (Hyatt) [Y|N] - IETF 82, Taipei (Hyatt and TICC) [Y|N] - IETF 81, Québec (Hilton) [Y|N] - IETF 80, Prague (Hilton) [Y|N] - IETF 73, Minneapolis (Hilton) [Y|N] I suppose we could just add every venue from the last _n_ years, but I'm reluctant to do that because I think it will give too many options. I seem to recall at least some of the previous post-meeting surveys asking this question about the venue we were just in. I think it would be interesting, however, to pick a few popular venues and track their ratings over time. This is merely a suggestion for the IAOC, and I hope they feel free to treat it as a bad idea. (It's also the last I have to say on this topic, since I've used up my bit quota.) Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
the methodology (was: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity))
Ok, I know I said that I'd shut up, but this is a clarifying question, so I'll answer. On Tue, Aug 07, 2012 at 05:28:33PM +0200, Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) wrote: Why the survey should limit it to the last five meetings... That's what the oblique reference to Arrow-and-other-issues was about. It turns out that if you give groups of people choices, the preferences in a set are not necessarily transitive in the aggregate even if they are in the individual cases. (This is why preferential ballot systems and so on have paradoxical effects.) Similarly, if you give people too many options, you overwhelm their ability to answer and you get answers that are not consistent with the answers under more narrowly constrained choices. Survey methodology is one of my hobby horses. The approach I suggested is far from perfect, but given the lousy sample (our sample is always self-selected) it seemed likely to me to produce better data than other approaches. I can justify this at greater length off list if you really want. In the long history we experienced additional good places I picked recent ones where I heard people say good things and I didn't hear very many complaints; also, I included only things people have quite recently praised (that's why Minneapolis is on there even though the last visit was some years ago). I should note that I haven't really found anything too bad about _any_ meeting I've been to, so I don't have a horse in this race. Anaheim was my least favourite, but I still had a useful meeting, which is my real measure. (Once again, I note, people complained rather little and the weather was good. I'm pretty convinced about the weather-to-complaints correlation. Maybe we need a COLDNWET WG.) So maybe the survey should be more open and let each list his 3-5 favorable places based on the experience from earlier meetings? No, that will produce totally useless data. There will be no way to reconcile it. And anyway, because of the transitivity problem, we could end up picking everyone's last choice out of that list to go to. Now I really will shut up, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
Re: So, where to repeat?
I'd strongly prefer the IETF to focus on going to places where we get work done and where costs can be controlled. I'd prefer to avoid tourist destinations to some extent even if they are not more expensive, but definitely if they are. I want to present a professional image to my clients and I want to go to IETf meetings with people who are there to get work done, not to tour. So, for US meetings I agree with the following: [RS ] +1 and no employer ever argued that going to Minneapolis was a boondoggle. The Hilton in Minneapolis of all the IETF meetings I ve attended has the most optimal layout of meeting rooms etc. If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and the hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more attendees). Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend the vast majority of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy if we meet there in March and November.
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Why not in bermuda triangle- innovation coupled with adventure!!! Warm Regards, Anshuman Sent from my BlackBerry® Smartphone, regret typo's! -Original Message- From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) nurit.sprec...@nsn.com Sender: ietf-boun...@ietf.org Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 17:28:33 To: ext Andrew Sullivana...@anvilwalrusden.com; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) Why the survey should limit it to the last five meetings... In the long history we experienced additional good places So maybe the survey should be more open and let each list his 3-5 favorable places based on the experience from earlier meetings? Best regards, Nurit -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Andrew Sullivan Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:11 PM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) Dear colleagues, On Tue, Aug 07, 2012 at 10:42:10AM -0400, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: I expect that a chunk of the variance hinges on the qualifier While the vagaries of air transport costs fascinate me, I'm not sure how the question of the cost of one route at one time for one person is broadly relevant. The basic fact of having meetings in multiple places (which is a direct consequence of trying to spread the pain of travel) is that sometimes each of us will have an expensive flight. (This is the same reason that I think confusing the scheduling-in-advance question with the venue question is a bad idea.) Dave Crocker's original point was that some venues are good enough that you can tune them to be better. I was sceptical, but upthread we had two proposals: Minneapolis and Prague. Nobody seems to have argued against. Any others? At the plenary in Vancouver we heard go here again, and we've already decided to run that trial in any case. That makes three. Also, many people expressed satisfaction in Québec. Vancouver's Pacific location notwithstanding, this appears to me to suggest that we have one repeat location in Europe and two in North America. This leaves us rather thin in Asia-Pacific. I recall people saying good things about Taipei. The point of all this, in case it isn't clear, is to ask to add a question to the post-meeting survey about specific venues and whether future meetings should try to return to them. Given Arrow paradoxes and so on, I think a short list with yes/no for each is much more likely to yield useful aggregate results than a big list or a rank order. So, I'd like to suggest the following survey item be added to the post-Vancouver survey: Do you support the IETF returning to the very same venue (hotel and meeting facilities) as the last time in the following meetings: - IETF 84, Vancouver (Hyatt) [Y|N] - IETF 82, Taipei (Hyatt and TICC) [Y|N] - IETF 81, Québec (Hilton) [Y|N] - IETF 80, Prague (Hilton) [Y|N] - IETF 73, Minneapolis (Hilton) [Y|N] I suppose we could just add every venue from the last _n_ years, but I'm reluctant to do that because I think it will give too many options. I seem to recall at least some of the previous post-meeting surveys asking this question about the venue we were just in. I think it would be interesting, however, to pick a few popular venues and track their ratings over time. This is merely a suggestion for the IAOC, and I hope they feel free to treat it as a bad idea. (It's also the last I have to say on this topic, since I've used up my bit quota.) Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
BTW, if anyone finds the venue question extremely compelling / interesting -- consider seeking a spot on the IAOC during the next nominating period. - Jason
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
BTW, if anyone finds the venue question extremely compelling / interesting -- consider seeking a spot on the IAOC during the next nominating period. Yes, please do. Frankly, I'd prefer there be competition; it creates healthy debate within nomcom and might even improve community awareness of IAOC functions. The one caveat that I'll offer is that the IAOC has a range of topics beyond meeting venue -- budget, tools development, IT ops, legal, IPR, etc.: http://iaoc.ietf.org/ They all need to be covered by all the IAOC members. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
Hi, My top three repeat venues would be Prague, Minneapolis and Vancouver. Great meeting venues, with everything you need nearby. My least favoured venues have been Dublin, Vienna and Maastricht. Of course, you have to experiment to find good repeat venues... Tim
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
I'll bet Dublin would be rated higher if the meetings had been downtown. Same for Vienna. Steve On Aug 7, 2012, at 5:55 PM, Tim Chown wrote: Hi, My top three repeat venues would be Prague, Minneapolis and Vancouver. Great meeting venues, with everything you need nearby. My least favoured venues have been Dublin, Vienna and Maastricht. Of course, you have to experiment to find good repeat venues... Tim
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On 7 Aug 2012, at 23:01, Steve Crocker st...@shinkuro.com wrote: I'll bet Dublin would be rated higher if the meetings had been downtown. Same for Vienna. Quite possibly, but a rating is based on a venue, not a city. Dublin is a great city. An out of town golf resort is not a great venue. Tim On Aug 7, 2012, at 5:55 PM, Tim Chown wrote: Hi, My top three repeat venues would be Prague, Minneapolis and Vancouver. Great meeting venues, with everything you need nearby. My least favoured venues have been Dublin, Vienna and Maastricht. Of course, you have to experiment to find good repeat venues... Tim
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, Tim Chown wrote: On 7 Aug 2012, at 23:01, Steve Crocker st...@shinkuro.com wrote: I'll bet Dublin would be rated higher if the meetings had been downtown. Same for Vienna. Quite possibly, but a rating is based on a venue, not a city. Dublin is a great city. An out of town golf resort is not a great venue. Tim Right, and I don't think we will be going back to CityWest ever: http://www.herald.ie/news/creditors-fury-at-citywest-showdown-2489018.html Ole
RE: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
+1 Prague was excellent .. I actually liked Quebec City but connections were awful. So where in Asia? You have to have the 3. Is this discussion is really about are we the Internet Entertainment and Travel Facility?? Some of us have employers some of us do not. Is this about diversity or getting the work done. -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Crocker Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:01 PM To: Tim Chown Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity) I'll bet Dublin would be rated higher if the meetings had been downtown. Same for Vienna. Steve On Aug 7, 2012, at 5:55 PM, Tim Chown wrote: Hi, My top three repeat venues would be Prague, Minneapolis and Vancouver. Great meeting venues, with everything you need nearby. My least favoured venues have been Dublin, Vienna and Maastricht. Of course, you have to experiment to find good repeat venues... Tim
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On 08/08/2012 12:30 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, Tim Chown wrote: On 7 Aug 2012, at 23:01, Steve Crocker st...@shinkuro.com wrote: I'll bet Dublin would be rated higher if the meetings had been downtown. Same for Vienna. Quite possibly, but a rating is based on a venue, not a city. Dublin is a great city. An out of town golf resort is not a great venue. Tim Right, and I don't think we will be going back to CityWest ever: So I agree with that. If a feasible venue actually in Dublin turns up I'll be sure to let Ray/IAOC/site-visit folks know. http://www.herald.ie/news/creditors-fury-at-citywest-showdown-2489018.html However the place is still open. Wonders of business I guess;-) S. Ole
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
So I agree with that. If a feasible venue actually in Dublin turns up I'll be sure to let Ray/IAOC/site-visit folks know. The Burlington hotel claims that they can host a 1500 person meeting. MAAWG met there in 2007 and it worked well for us, although that was a somewhat smaller meeting. R's, John
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On 8/7/2012 5:29 PM, John Levine wrote: So I agree with that. If a feasible venue actually in Dublin turns up I'll be sure to let Ray/IAOC/site-visit folks know. The Burlington hotel claims that they can host a 1500 person meeting. Yeah, it's exactly that easy to choose a venue. A single number does it.[1] not. Folks, the IETF actually has a rather constraining set of requirements and the secretariat has to put in quite a bit of effort to qualify venues. Many places that are otherwise just dandy can't deal with these complexities. For example, we run quite a few parallel meetings that are large. Take a careful look at the range of serious complaints that get lodged about venues and you can start to glean the requirements list. (I said serious. That is, complaints that get significant traction from the community.) Perhaps the Burlington really can accommodate us, but given the rate at which places get rejected, the expectation ain't great. That doesn't mean reject it out of hand, of course. d/ [1] For the places that we do go to and that we like, I've no idea what single capacity number they typically cite, but I predict it's more like double our actual size, if not triple. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On 8/7/2012 4:34 PM, Richard Shockey wrote: +1 Prague was excellent .. I actually liked Quebec City but connections were awful. I haven't seen anyone post negative comments about Prague in this thread. By way of probing, I'll ask for them. For example, do folks who live outside of that region not care about the additional hop of travel to get to it? So where in Asia? You have to have the 3. Asia is east of Prague. sigh. sorry. As Bob has noted from the IAOC presentation, Asia is actually proving a challenge. Due to language and culture challenges, we seem to really need a host. And there there are price problems we keep hitting. Is this discussion is really about are we the Internet Entertainment and Travel Facility?? Some of us have employers some of us do not. Is this about diversity or getting the work done. While it's not automatic that these are mutually exclusive, I sometimes find it confusing to discern the criteria that participants apply. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So, where to repeat?
On 8/7/12 6:24 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: I haven't seen anyone post negative comments about Prague in this thread. By way of probing, I'll ask for them. For example, do folks who live outside of that region not care about the additional hop of travel to get to it? It was over 24 hours of travel to get to Prague and over 24 hours of travel to get to Taipei - it's a wash. It's looking like given the constraints we can't meet in Alaska. Kidding - there aren't any facilities large enough, even in Anchorage. Melinda
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
You said about Prague: ...[do] folks who live outside of that region not care about the additional hop of travel to get to it? This gets cited often, and I don't really understand why. There are VERY few European cities that are reachable directly from the US (or Asia for that matter). Most require transiting some kind of major hub (London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam to name a few). There will always be exceptions, I am sure you can get to Stockholm directly from the US East Coast, but not from the West Coast. I am sure a very large percentage of the IETF attendees from the US went through London or Frankfurt (or a small number of alternatives) to get to Stockholm on the two occasions when we met there. Since I travel to Norway on a more or less regular basis, I am used to (and quite happy to) go through Frankfurt or London, it's just a fact of life especially if you factor in the preferred carrier (personal or corporate). Prague may be an extra hop, but depending on schedules you might well get to your destination (hotel) just as quickly as you would for getting from CDG to central Paris or LHR to central London. If we restrict European cities to the ones with direct flight connections from other continents, we're really limiting the choices. Let's be a little more realistic and consider actual travel pain from the top hubs in Europe, assuming we can't (always) meet in those places. I do understand that the extra hop does add some cost, which is why I always consider trains as a reasonable alternative, albeit not a particularly fast one. For example, the cost for a First Class train ticket from Frankfurt to Prague was 98 Euros. I am not suggesting that this is always going to be a reasonable alternative, and I am worried that the mere mention of train on this list may result in a flame war, but still... Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On 8/7/2012 7:55 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: You said about Prague: ...[do] folks who live outside of that region not care about the additional hop of travel to get to it? This gets cited often, and I don't really understand why. There are VERY few European cities that are reachable directly from the US (or Asia for that matter). Most require transiting some kind of major hub (London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam to name a few). So, those hubs are reachable directly from the US and Asia, aren't they? If we restrict European cities to the ones with direct flight connections from other continents, we're really limiting the choices. Yup. I do understand that the extra hop does add some cost, Something like an extra US$200 or so, if I remember my research of a couple of years ago. And a round-trip extra cost in time of 1/2-1 day... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, Dave Crocker wrote: Most require transiting some kind of major hub (London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam to name a few). So, those hubs are reachable directly from the US and Asia, aren't they? Yes, they are, and we have met in Paris twice and London once, will meet there again in 2014. Amsterdam, well, we've met there once too, but that was a long time ago and the group was MUCH smaller. London and Paris also happen to be among the most expensive places in the world, and also very popular in terms of locating a suitable and available venue. I do understand that the extra hop does add some cost, Something like an extra US$200 or so, if I remember my research of a couple of years ago. And a round-trip extra cost in time of 1/2-1 day... See my previous message. Short answer: it depends. Frankfurt to Prague is a really short flight. Tradeoffs include significantly lower venue and hotel costs, more availability of said venue etc. I think you'd generally get your $200 back, but this is certainly not something one can ever be particularly scientific about given all the variables. And with specific reference to Prague, well, it certainly fits the we know this venue, we like this venue mantra, hence it gets the should repeat checkmark. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
The Burlington hotel claims that they can host a 1500 person meeting. Yeah, it's exactly that easy to choose a venue. A single number does it.[1] not. Of course. MAAWG has been there so we know it's not a dump, it's downtown, they can deal with nerds with lots of computers who demand coffee and cookies, the prices are not totally absurd, etc. MAAWG is smaller than the IETF so there may well be problems that make it unsuitable, but if people are looking for a downtown Dublin hotel, that's the most likely one. R's, John PS: Weren't you at that meeting? The day we arrived there was a benefit women's road race in the morning so when we got there in the afternoon, the pubs were all full of the racers, who ranged from athletic teens to good natured grannies, and their friends.
Re: So, where to repeat? (was: Re: management granularity)
If we restrict European cities to the ones with direct flight connections from other continents, we're really limiting the choices. For some of us, if we limit our choices to places with direct flights, that means Newark, Philadelphia, or Detroit. Count your blessings. We can argue about whether Quebec was unduly hard to get to (I didn't have any problem when I got tickets a month ahead, even though I was redeeming points), but it seems to me that so long as most people can get to or from the venue in less than a day for a reasonable amount of money, it's OK. R's, John
So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 11:58:19AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: enough merely to have excellent staff. We need to go back to the better places and benefit from the learning curve. This doesn't mean no new venues but it means fewer. As a practical matter, may I ask about which venues you want to return to? I get your argument in principle, but it seems to me that there has been quite a lot of complaining in the past. The one factor that seems to me most likely to reduce complaints -- weather -- is evidently beyond the Secretariat's or IAOC's control. People seem inclined to return to the Hyatt in Vancouver, elevators notwithstanding. We're going to do that. (I don't understand why the previous Vencouver venue was less desirable -- to me, these venues were very similar, and not very far apart. I note, however, that the previous two Vancouver visits were near the end of the year, when it rains all the time in Vancouver.) People complained at length about the venue in Paris, so I presume it's out. Some people complained about the hotel room prices and travel expense in Taipei, though I heard remarks that it was a good venue. Should we try to return there? People complained in advance about getting to Québec, although afterwards I heard lots of good noises about that venue. I note that the weather was great. Should we try to return? I don't recall much complaining about the Prague venue in 2011, which was striking to me because very little seemed different to me compared to our first visit there. Perhaps this is evidence of the tuning you suggest (ensuring the water bottles were plastic, for instance). But I note the weather was excellent. Beijing? I guess Maastricht is out. Anaheim (FWIW, I thought that was an example of a terrible location, but many people seemed happy with it)? Hiroshima? Stockholm? San Francisco (we thought the crime at Paris was bad, yet didn't complain about being smack up against the Tenderloin)? Or there's the old standby, Minneapolis; perhaps we could do it in March. The Dublin venue was panned by large numbers of people. Philadelphia, people complained about expense. Chicago, too (combined with hotel renovations). That gets us back through 2007. Which of the venues do you think we should return to, to which we already haven't returned or planned to return? And why? For what it's worth, I would not complain about returning to any of those venues; I personally had good meetings at all of them except Hiroshima, which I missed due to other commitments. That includes both Maastricht and Dublin, which were both apparently trials for large numbers of others. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Dublin panned? I thought it was one of the best venues and locations of the last meetings. What about Italy or Spain? I've never heard about an IETF in Italy. I'm ok with meetings outside Italy since i like traveling very much, but i was wondering why it has never been taken into account in the past meetings. Is it expensive? I think Italy and Spain are much cheaper than France, UK or Sweden, aren't they? BR Daniele -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan Sent: lunedì 6 agosto 2012 14.06 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 11:58:19AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: enough merely to have excellent staff. We need to go back to the better places and benefit from the learning curve. This doesn't mean no new venues but it means fewer. As a practical matter, may I ask about which venues you want to return to? I get your argument in principle, but it seems to me that there has been quite a lot of complaining in the past. The one factor that seems to me most likely to reduce complaints -- weather -- is evidently beyond the Secretariat's or IAOC's control. People seem inclined to return to the Hyatt in Vancouver, elevators notwithstanding. We're going to do that. (I don't understand why the previous Vencouver venue was less desirable -- to me, these venues were very similar, and not very far apart. I note, however, that the previous two Vancouver visits were near the end of the year, when it rains all the time in Vancouver.) People complained at length about the venue in Paris, so I presume it's out. Some people complained about the hotel room prices and travel expense in Taipei, though I heard remarks that it was a good venue. Should we try to return there? People complained in advance about getting to Québec, although afterwards I heard lots of good noises about that venue. I note that the weather was great. Should we try to return? I don't recall much complaining about the Prague venue in 2011, which was striking to me because very little seemed different to me compared to our first visit there. Perhaps this is evidence of the tuning you suggest (ensuring the water bottles were plastic, for instance). But I note the weather was excellent. Beijing? I guess Maastricht is out. Anaheim (FWIW, I thought that was an example of a terrible location, but many people seemed happy with it)? Hiroshima? Stockholm? San Francisco (we thought the crime at Paris was bad, yet didn't complain about being smack up against the Tenderloin)? Or there's the old standby, Minneapolis; perhaps we could do it in March. The Dublin venue was panned by large numbers of people. Philadelphia, people complained about expense. Chicago, too (combined with hotel renovations). That gets us back through 2007. Which of the venues do you think we should return to, to which we already haven't returned or planned to return? And why? For what it's worth, I would not complain about returning to any of those venues; I personally had good meetings at all of them except Hiroshima, which I missed due to other commitments. That includes both Maastricht and Dublin, which were both apparently trials for large numbers of others. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Oslo? -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Daniele Ceccarelli Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 3:24 PM To: Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Dublin panned? I thought it was one of the best venues and locations of the last meetings. What about Italy or Spain? I've never heard about an IETF in Italy. I'm ok with meetings outside Italy since i like traveling very much, but i was wondering why it has never been taken into account in the past meetings. Is it expensive? I think Italy and Spain are much cheaper than France, UK or Sweden, aren't they? BR Daniele -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan Sent: lunedì 6 agosto 2012 14.06 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 11:58:19AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: enough merely to have excellent staff. We need to go back to the better places and benefit from the learning curve. This doesn't mean no new venues but it means fewer. As a practical matter, may I ask about which venues you want to return to? I get your argument in principle, but it seems to me that there has been quite a lot of complaining in the past. The one factor that seems to me most likely to reduce complaints -- weather -- is evidently beyond the Secretariat's or IAOC's control. People seem inclined to return to the Hyatt in Vancouver, elevators notwithstanding. We're going to do that. (I don't understand why the previous Vencouver venue was less desirable -- to me, these venues were very similar, and not very far apart. I note, however, that the previous two Vancouver visits were near the end of the year, when it rains all the time in Vancouver.) People complained at length about the venue in Paris, so I presume it's out. Some people complained about the hotel room prices and travel expense in Taipei, though I heard remarks that it was a good venue. Should we try to return there? People complained in advance about getting to Québec, although afterwards I heard lots of good noises about that venue. I note that the weather was great. Should we try to return? I don't recall much complaining about the Prague venue in 2011, which was striking to me because very little seemed different to me compared to our first visit there. Perhaps this is evidence of the tuning you suggest (ensuring the water bottles were plastic, for instance). But I note the weather was excellent. Beijing? I guess Maastricht is out. Anaheim (FWIW, I thought that was an example of a terrible location, but many people seemed happy with it)? Hiroshima? Stockholm? San Francisco (we thought the crime at Paris was bad, yet didn't complain about being smack up against the Tenderloin)? Or there's the old standby, Minneapolis; perhaps we could do it in March. The Dublin venue was panned by large numbers of people. Philadelphia, people complained about expense. Chicago, too (combined with hotel renovations). That gets us back through 2007. Which of the venues do you think we should return to, to which we already haven't returned or planned to return? And why? For what it's worth, I would not complain about returning to any of those venues; I personally had good meetings at all of them except Hiroshima, which I missed due to other commitments. That includes both Maastricht and Dublin, which were both apparently trials for large numbers of others. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has also been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.) Contrast with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right in the city. Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking a break to go to a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and so on. (I'm deliberately not including tourism here.) However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible would be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those for me. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniele Ceccarelli Sent: 06 August 2012 13:24 To: Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. Dublin panned? I thought it was one of the best venues and locations of the last meetings. What about Italy or Spain? I've never heard about an IETF in Italy. I'm ok with meetings outside Italy since i like traveling very much, but i was wondering why it has never been taken into account in the past meetings. Is it expensive? I think Italy and Spain are much cheaper than France, UK or Sweden, aren't they? BR Daniele -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan Sent: lunedì 6 agosto 2012 14.06 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 11:58:19AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: enough merely to have excellent staff. We need to go back to the better places and benefit from the learning curve. This doesn't mean no new venues but it means fewer. As a practical matter, may I ask about which venues you want to return to? I get your argument in principle, but it seems to me that there has been quite a lot of complaining in the past. The one factor that seems to me most likely to reduce complaints -- weather -- is evidently beyond the Secretariat's or IAOC's control. People seem inclined to return to the Hyatt in Vancouver, elevators notwithstanding. We're going to do that. (I don't understand why the previous Vencouver venue was less desirable -- to me, these venues were very similar, and not very far apart. I note, however, that the previous two Vancouver visits were near the end of the year, when it rains all the time in Vancouver.) People complained at length about the venue in Paris, so I presume it's out. Some people complained about the hotel room prices and travel expense in Taipei, though I heard remarks that it was a good venue. Should we try to return there? People complained in advance about getting to Québec, although afterwards I heard lots of good noises about that venue. I note that the weather was great. Should we try to return? I don't recall much complaining about the Prague venue in 2011, which was striking to me because very little seemed different to me compared to our first visit there. Perhaps this is evidence of the tuning you suggest (ensuring the water bottles were plastic, for instance). But I note the weather was excellent. Beijing? I guess Maastricht is out. Anaheim (FWIW, I thought that was an example of a terrible location, but many people seemed happy with it)? Hiroshima? Stockholm? San Francisco (we thought the crime at Paris was bad, yet didn't complain about being smack up against the Tenderloin)? Or there's the old standby, Minneapolis; perhaps we could do it in March. The Dublin venue was panned by large numbers of people. Philadelphia, people complained about expense. Chicago, too (combined with hotel renovations). That gets us back through 2007. Which of the venues do you think we should return to, to which we already haven't returned or planned to return? And why
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
When you are not close (time), flight cost may become higher in the priority (over hotem) Flying to Vancouver for me for example is the most expensive tripeven though the city is amazing and the host was wonderful! -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:56 PM To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has also been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.) Contrast with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right in the city. Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking a break to go to a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and so on. (I'm deliberately not including tourism here.) However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible would be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those for me. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniele Ceccarelli Sent: 06 August 2012 13:24 To: Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. Dublin panned? I thought it was one of the best venues and locations of the last meetings. What about Italy or Spain? I've never heard about an IETF in Italy. I'm ok with meetings outside Italy since i like traveling very much, but i was wondering why it has never been taken into account in the past meetings. Is it expensive? I think Italy and Spain are much cheaper than France, UK or Sweden, aren't they? BR Daniele -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan Sent: lunedì 6 agosto 2012 14.06 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 11:58:19AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: enough merely to have excellent staff. We need to go back to the better places and benefit from the learning curve. This doesn't mean no new venues but it means fewer. As a practical matter, may I ask about which venues you want to return to? I get your argument in principle, but it seems to me that there has been quite a lot of complaining in the past. The one factor that seems to me most likely to reduce complaints -- weather -- is evidently beyond the Secretariat's or IAOC's control. People seem inclined to return to the Hyatt in Vancouver, elevators notwithstanding. We're going to do that. (I don't understand why the previous Vencouver venue was less desirable -- to me, these venues were very similar, and not very far apart. I note, however, that the previous two Vancouver visits were near the end of the year, when it rains all the time in Vancouver.) People complained at length about the venue in Paris, so I presume it's out. Some people complained about the hotel room prices and travel expense in Taipei, though I heard remarks that it was a good venue. Should we try to return there? People complained in advance about getting to Québec, although afterwards I heard lots of good noises about that venue. I note that the weather was great. Should we try to return? I don't recall much complaining about the Prague venue in 2011, which was striking to me because very little seemed different to me compared to our first visit there. Perhaps this is evidence of the tuning you suggest (ensuring the water bottles were plastic, for instance). But I note the weather was excellent. Beijing? I guess Maastricht is out. Anaheim (FWIW, I thought that was an example of a terrible location, but many people seemed happy with it)? Hiroshima? Stockholm
Re: So, where to repeat?
On 8/6/12 5:23 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote: Dublin panned? I thought it was one of the best venues and locations of the last meetings. The meeting wasn't in Dublin. There are no venues attached to or adjacent to suitable hotels large enough to do a plenary in Dublin. Regarding the venue itself. Next to no attenuation between floors. I am still surprised that building had enough steel in it to not come down around our ears. I'd just as soon do wifi for 1200 in a tent. What about Italy or Spain? I've never heard about an IETF in Italy. I'm ok with meetings outside Italy since i like traveling very much, but i was wondering why it has never been taken into account in the past meetings. Is it expensive? I think Italy and Spain are much cheaper than France, UK or Sweden, aren't they? BR Daniele -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan Sent: lunedì 6 agosto 2012 14.06 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 11:58:19AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: enough merely to have excellent staff. We need to go back to the better places and benefit from the learning curve. This doesn't mean no new venues but it means fewer. As a practical matter, may I ask about which venues you want to return to? I get your argument in principle, but it seems to me that there has been quite a lot of complaining in the past. The one factor that seems to me most likely to reduce complaints -- weather -- is evidently beyond the Secretariat's or IAOC's control. People seem inclined to return to the Hyatt in Vancouver, elevators notwithstanding. We're going to do that. (I don't understand why the previous Vencouver venue was less desirable -- to me, these venues were very similar, and not very far apart. I note, however, that the previous two Vancouver visits were near the end of the year, when it rains all the time in Vancouver.) People complained at length about the venue in Paris, so I presume it's out. Some people complained about the hotel room prices and travel expense in Taipei, though I heard remarks that it was a good venue. Should we try to return there? People complained in advance about getting to Québec, although afterwards I heard lots of good noises about that venue. I note that the weather was great. Should we try to return? I don't recall much complaining about the Prague venue in 2011, which was striking to me because very little seemed different to me compared to our first visit there. Perhaps this is evidence of the tuning you suggest (ensuring the water bottles were plastic, for instance). But I note the weather was excellent. Beijing? I guess Maastricht is out. Anaheim (FWIW, I thought that was an example of a terrible location, but many people seemed happy with it)? Hiroshima? Stockholm? San Francisco (we thought the crime at Paris was bad, yet didn't complain about being smack up against the Tenderloin)? Or there's the old standby, Minneapolis; perhaps we could do it in March. The Dublin venue was panned by large numbers of people. Philadelphia, people complained about expense. Chicago, too (combined with hotel renovations). That gets us back through 2007. Which of the venues do you think we should return to, to which we already haven't returned or planned to return? And why? For what it's worth, I would not complain about returning to any of those venues; I personally had good meetings at all of them except Hiroshima, which I missed due to other commitments. That includes both Maastricht and Dublin, which were both apparently trials for large numbers of others. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Daniele, I can almost guarantee that if you help us find a suitable venue and host we'll be coming to Italy. So far we haven't found either, but that can be said about a lot of places... Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote: Dublin panned? I thought it was one of the best venues and locations of the last meetings. What about Italy or Spain? I've never heard about an IETF in Italy. I'm ok with meetings outside Italy since i like traveling very much, but i was wondering why it has never been taken into account in the past meetings. Is it expensive? I think Italy and Spain are much cheaper than France, UK or Sweden, aren't they? BR Daniele
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that I have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego). And of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday night in your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least it is from here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was staying fairly cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my employer, and I didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper, just better). Paris has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I felt less location constrained. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) [mailto:nurit.sprec...@nsn.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 15:07 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. When you are not close (time), flight cost may become higher in the priority (over hotem) Flying to Vancouver for me for example is the most expensive tripeven though the city is amazing and the host was wonderful! -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:56 PM To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has also been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.) Contrast with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right in the city. Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking a break to go to a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and so on. (I'm deliberately not including tourism here.) However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible would be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those for me. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniele Ceccarelli Sent: 06 August 2012 13:24 To: Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. Dublin panned? I thought it was one of the best venues and locations of the last meetings. What about Italy or Spain? I've never heard about an IETF in Italy. I'm ok with meetings outside Italy since i like traveling very much, but i was wondering why it has never been taken into account in the past meetings. Is it expensive? I think Italy and Spain are much cheaper than France, UK or Sweden, aren't they? BR Daniele -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
On Mon, Aug 06, 2012 at 01:55:59PM +, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: is noise) and the ability to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. That topic imports a completely new one to this discussion: advance scheduling of the meetings. If there is any principle for repeating a venue to be found (I'm a sceptic, but let's see), then advance scheduling can't enter into it because the lack of advance scheduling is the same at every meeting. So, for the purposes of this discussion, you have two options: plan well in advance to be there for the entire week, or plan to buy plane tickets after the agenda is finalized. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Three options. The two you mention and not going. Yes, advance scheduling is new to this discussion this time, and yes it's not done. But it does have a real impact once time/cost becomes sufficiently critical that days count. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan Sent: 06 August 2012 15:30 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. On Mon, Aug 06, 2012 at 01:55:59PM +, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: is noise) and the ability to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. That topic imports a completely new one to this discussion: advance scheduling of the meetings. If there is any principle for repeating a venue to be found (I'm a sceptic, but let's see), then advance scheduling can't enter into it because the lack of advance scheduling is the same at every meeting. So, for the purposes of this discussion, you have two options: plan well in advance to be there for the entire week, or plan to buy plane tickets after the agenda is finalized. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person.
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Flights to Vancouver from some cities were extremely expensive. It would have cost me more than twice as much as it did to fly to Beijing, for example, if I had taken a direct flight from DFW - it would have been by far my most expensive IETF airfare ever. I didn't because I was trying to be cost conscious. However, I could have flown to London in the same time it took me to get to/from Vancouver and for about the same price. This is a typical problem when we go somewhere when tourists go (for some reason, flying to cities in Canada is very popular when the temp in Texas is 110 degrees F). Orlando will most likely be just as bad since it is scheduled during a time where many schools in DFW area have Spring Break - flight costs right now are over $500 ($560). I can usually fly anywhere in the U.S. for around $300 when I book early. And, of course, I can't book early as my company won't re-imburse unless I use their travel company and have approval (which I won't get for at least another 5-6 months). Hopefully, the IETF negotiated hotel rate won't reflect that it is Spring Break. If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and the hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more attendees). Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend the vast majority of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy if we meet there in March and November. Mary On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) chris.dearl...@baesystems.com wrote: I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that I have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego). And of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday night in your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least it is from here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was staying fairly cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my employer, and I didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper, just better). Paris has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I felt less location constrained. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) [mailto: nurit.sprec...@nsn.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 15:07 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. When you are not close (time), flight cost may become higher in the priority (over hotem) Flying to Vancouver for me for example is the most expensive tripeven though the city is amazing and the host was wonderful! -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:56 PM To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has also been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.) Contrast with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right in the city. Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking a break to go to a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and so on. (I'm deliberately not including tourism here.) However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible would be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
Those prices still sound like a week's hotel costs would exceed them. And I would expect the cost of your time to your employer to exceed even that. I'm not suggesting airfare prices don't matter, not by any stretch of the imagination, just that they are third if you stay a whole week. Or maybe fourth, there's also the IETF charge to consider, but that's less flexible (week or day) and not highly location dependent. Of course if you go for just a day the airfare is quite likely to be number one on the list, unless the location is relatively local. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.commailto:chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 From: Mary Barnes [mailto:mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 15:42 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) *** WARNING *** This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Please see this processhttp://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf on how to deal with suspicious emails. Flights to Vancouver from some cities were extremely expensive. It would have cost me more than twice as much as it did to fly to Beijing, for example, if I had taken a direct flight from DFW - it would have been by far my most expensive IETF airfare ever. I didn't because I was trying to be cost conscious. However, I could have flown to London in the same time it took me to get to/from Vancouver and for about the same price. This is a typical problem when we go somewhere when tourists go (for some reason, flying to cities in Canada is very popular when the temp in Texas is 110 degrees F). Orlando will most likely be just as bad since it is scheduled during a time where many schools in DFW area have Spring Break - flight costs right now are over $500 ($560). I can usually fly anywhere in the U.S. for around $300 when I book early. And, of course, I can't book early as my company won't re-imburse unless I use their travel company and have approval (which I won't get for at least another 5-6 months). Hopefully, the IETF negotiated hotel rate won't reflect that it is Spring Break. If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and the hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more attendees). Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend the vast majority of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy if we meet there in March and November. Mary On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) chris.dearl...@baesystems.commailto:chris.dearl...@baesystems.com wrote: I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that I have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego). And of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday night in your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least it is from here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was staying fairly cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my employer, and I didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper, just better). Paris has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I felt less location constrained. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194tel:%2B44%201245%20242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124tel:%2B44%201245%20242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.commailto:chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) [mailto:nurit.sprec...@nsn.commailto:nurit.sprec
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
The only reason why a RT direct airfare would not have exceeded hotel costs was because I came early as I attended another meeting in San JOse just prior to IETF and I was attending a workshop on Saturday. If I had arrived on Saturday the direct RT airfare would have exceeded hotel costs. Mary. On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) chris.dearl...@baesystems.com wrote: Those prices still sound like a week's hotel costs would exceed them. And I would expect the cost of your time to your employer to exceed even that. I'm not suggesting airfare prices don't matter, not by any stretch of the imagination, just that they are third if you stay a whole week. Or maybe fourth, there's also the IETF charge to consider, but that's less flexible (week or day) and not highly location dependent. Of course if you go for just a day the airfare is quite likely to be number one on the list, unless the location is relatively local. ** ** -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 ** ** *From:* Mary Barnes [mailto:mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com] *Sent:* 06 August 2012 15:42 *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) *Cc:* Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org *Subject:* Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) ** ** ** ** WARNING *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or the internet.*** * Keep this in mind if you answer this message. * *Please see this processhttp://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdfon how to deal with suspicious emails. * Flights to Vancouver from some cities were extremely expensive. It would have cost me more than twice as much as it did to fly to Beijing, for example, if I had taken a direct flight from DFW - it would have been by far my most expensive IETF airfare ever. I didn't because I was trying to be cost conscious. However, I could have flown to London in the same time it took me to get to/from Vancouver and for about the same price. This is a typical problem when we go somewhere when tourists go (for some reason, flying to cities in Canada is very popular when the temp in Texas is 110 degrees F). Orlando will most likely be just as bad since it is scheduled during a time where many schools in DFW area have Spring Break - flight costs right now are over $500 ($560). I can usually fly anywhere in the U.S. for around $300 when I book early. And, of course, I can't book early as my company won't re-imburse unless I use their travel company and have approval (which I won't get for at least another 5-6 months). Hopefully, the IETF negotiated hotel rate won't reflect that it is Spring Break. ** ** If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and the hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more attendees). Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend the vast majority of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy if we meet there in March and November. ** ** Mary ** ** On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) chris.dearl...@baesystems.com wrote: I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that I have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego). And of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday night in your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least it is from here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was staying fairly cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my employer, and I didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper, just better). Paris has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I felt less location constrained. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
My experience is no doubt biased by that one can get directly to most places, including Vancouver the last time I went (not this year), from London, and I can get to Heathrow in well under two hours. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.commailto:chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) [mailto:nurit.sprec...@nsn.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 15:59 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Mary Barnes Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) *** WARNING *** This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Please see this processhttp://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf on how to deal with suspicious emails. To some people it may be third if they stay a whole weekbut for others not! Going to Vancouver is definitely one the most expensive flightsand takes a lot of time to get there Now that I have seen one saying it took him 27 hours to get backI feel luckyit took me only 24 hoursI left Wednesday late evening and got home Friday morning And no, even if I stayed two more nightsthe cost of the flight was still much higher than the price of the hotel... - Nurit From: ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK) [mailto:chris.dearl...@baesystems.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 5:53 PM To: Mary Barnes Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Those prices still sound like a week's hotel costs would exceed them. And I would expect the cost of your time to your employer to exceed even that. I'm not suggesting airfare prices don't matter, not by any stretch of the imagination, just that they are third if you stay a whole week. Or maybe fourth, there's also the IETF charge to consider, but that's less flexible (week or day) and not highly location dependent. Of course if you go for just a day the airfare is quite likely to be number one on the list, unless the location is relatively local. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.commailto:chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 From: Mary Barnes [mailto:mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 15:42 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Cc: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.orgmailto:ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) *** WARNING *** This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Please see this processhttp://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf on how to deal with suspicious emails. Flights to Vancouver from some cities were extremely expensive. It would have cost me more than twice as much as it did to fly to Beijing, for example, if I had taken a direct flight from DFW - it would have been by far my most expensive IETF airfare ever. I didn't because I was trying to be cost conscious. However, I could have flown to London in the same time it took me to get to/from Vancouver and for about the same price. This is a typical problem when we go somewhere when tourists go (for some reason, flying to cities in Canada is very popular when the temp in Texas is 110 degrees F). Orlando will most likely be just as bad since it is scheduled during a time where many schools in DFW area have Spring Break - flight costs right now are over $500 ($560). I can usually fly anywhere in the U.S. for around $300 when I book early. And, of course, I can't book early as my company won't re-imburse unless I use their travel company and have approval (which I won't get for at least another 5-6 months). Hopefully, the IETF
Re: So, where to repeat?
This appears to be turning into a survey. My views are no doubt colored by it being difficult, expensive, and slow to get anywhere (I live near Fairbanks, AK) so travel doesn't figure very prominently into how I feel about various venues. But even if it did ... I go to IETF meetings to get work done, and it's been easier some places than others. Minneapolis has consistently had outstanding meeting facilities, and I thought the facilities in Vancouver last week were excellent, too (and the network team did an outstanding job - many thanks!). Inexpensive, edible food is a huge plus, and there again, Minneapolis and Vancouver have stood out. But still, the only really serious consideration for me is whether or not the facilities make it easier to get done the things that need to get done. Melinda
Re: So, where to repeat?
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote: feel about various venues. But even if it did ... I go to IETF meetings to get work done, and it's been easier some places than others. Minneapolis has consistently had outstanding meeting facilities, and I thought the facilities in Vancouver last week were excellent, too (and the network team did an outstanding job - many thanks!). Inexpensive, edible food is a huge plus, and there again, Minneapolis and Vancouver have stood out. But still, the only really serious consideration for me is whether or not the facilities make it easier to get done the things that need to get done. Using those criteria, I would rate Prague and Beijing as good as or better than Minneapolis, and cheaper if you avoid the big hotels.
Re: So, where to repeat?
From central Europe perspective - price for airline ticket to Vancouver in summer is rocket expensive. I can fly to united states for half price. So cheap food cant beat more than $1.000 extra fee paid to airline. It does not mean YVR is a bad place, but I'd recommend to be carefull when talking about expensiveness. MK 6. 8. 2012 v 19:44, Scott Brim scott.b...@gmail.com: On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote: feel about various venues. But even if it did ... I go to IETF meetings to get work done, and it's been easier some places than others. Minneapolis has consistently had outstanding meeting facilities, and I thought the facilities in Vancouver last week were excellent, too (and the network team did an outstanding job - many thanks!). Inexpensive, edible food is a huge plus, and there again, Minneapolis and Vancouver have stood out. But still, the only really serious consideration for me is whether or not the facilities make it easier to get done the things that need to get done. Using those criteria, I would rate Prague and Beijing as good as or better than Minneapolis, and cheaper if you avoid the big hotels.
Re: So, where to repeat?
On Mon, Aug 06, 2012 at 01:44:32PM -0400, Scott Brim wrote: On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote: and Vancouver have stood out. But still, the only really serious consideration for me is whether or not the facilities make it easier to get done the things that need to get done. Using those criteria, I would rate Prague and Beijing as good as or better than Minneapolis, and cheaper if you avoid the big hotels. Thanks to Scott and Melinda for demonstrating the problem I saw in the original position. Dave's original argument was that by going back to places instead of finding new ones, we win by being able to tune. But I am unable to see from the evidence the kind of agreement on a site that results in mere tuning. For _every_ meeting, I can think of some set of people who will have reservations about the venue for some reason. That is not the basis for simple tuning. Some people (many of whom are the squeakiest wheels) appear to have internally inconsistent sets of demands. I think the people selecting venues -- return or otherwise -- have a thankless job, and I think that we should stop trying to manage that job on a list of a thousand people. This worked, that didn't is, we've heard, useful feedback. Aside from that, I don't see what more we have to say. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
I made always good experiences with meeting venues in the downtown of hub cities with good flight connections. As a European for me the east coast of North America is better than the west coast. So far my experience was very good with following meeting locations and would agree for a repetition: Vancouver, Chicago, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Paris, London, Stockholm and even Minneapolis (brrr). Bad experiences were: Dublin (60 min. as a sum to drive for a dinner), Maastricht (60 min. as a sum to walk for a dinner), Anaheim (far away from the LA airport) Why don't we actually plan a meeting in Boston, New York, Madrid, or Lisbon? Cheers, Mehmet -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Andrew Sullivan Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 5:06 AM To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 11:58:19AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: enough merely to have excellent staff. We need to go back to the better places and benefit from the learning curve. This doesn't mean no new venues but it means fewer. As a practical matter, may I ask about which venues you want to return to? I get your argument in principle, but it seems to me that there has been quite a lot of complaining in the past. The one factor that seems to me most likely to reduce complaints -- weather -- is evidently beyond the Secretariat's or IAOC's control. People seem inclined to return to the Hyatt in Vancouver, elevators notwithstanding. We're going to do that. (I don't understand why the previous Vencouver venue was less desirable -- to me, these venues were very similar, and not very far apart. I note, however, that the previous two Vancouver visits were near the end of the year, when it rains all the time in Vancouver.) People complained at length about the venue in Paris, so I presume it's out. Some people complained about the hotel room prices and travel expense in Taipei, though I heard remarks that it was a good venue. Should we try to return there? People complained in advance about getting to Québec, although afterwards I heard lots of good noises about that venue. I note that the weather was great. Should we try to return? I don't recall much complaining about the Prague venue in 2011, which was striking to me because very little seemed different to me compared to our first visit there. Perhaps this is evidence of the tuning you suggest (ensuring the water bottles were plastic, for instance). But I note the weather was excellent. Beijing? I guess Maastricht is out. Anaheim (FWIW, I thought that was an example of a terrible location, but many people seemed happy with it)? Hiroshima? Stockholm? San Francisco (we thought the crime at Paris was bad, yet didn't complain about being smack up against the Tenderloin)? Or there's the old standby, Minneapolis; perhaps we could do it in March. The Dublin venue was panned by large numbers of people. Philadelphia, people complained about expense. Chicago, too (combined with hotel renovations). That gets us back through 2007. Which of the venues do you think we should return to, to which we already haven't returned or planned to return? And why? For what it's worth, I would not complain about returning to any of those venues; I personally had good meetings at all of them except Hiroshima, which I missed due to other commitments. That includes both Maastricht and Dublin, which were both apparently trials for large numbers of others. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
[RS ] +1 and no employer ever argued that going to Minneapolis was a boondoggle. The Hilton in Minneapolis of all the IETF meetings Ive attended has the most optimal layout of meeting rooms etc. If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the best choice IMHO. It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and the hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more attendees). Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend the vast majority of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy if we meet there in March and November. Mary On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) chris.dearl...@baesystems.com wrote: I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that I have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego). And of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday night in your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least it is from here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was staying fairly cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my employer, and I didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper, just better). Paris has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I felt less location constrained. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 tel:%2B44%201245%20242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 tel:%2B44%201245%20242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) [mailto:nurit.sprec...@nsn.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 15:07 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. When you are not close (time), flight cost may become higher in the priority (over hotem) Flying to Vancouver for me for example is the most expensive tripeven though the city is amazing and the host was wonderful! -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:56 PM To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has also been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.) Contrast with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right in the city. Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking a break to go to a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and so on. (I'm deliberately not including tourism here.) However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible would be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those for me. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK Tel: +44 1245 242194 tel:%2B44%201245%20242194 | Fax: +44 1245 242124 tel:%2B44%201245%20242124 chris.dearl...@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com BAE Systems (Operations) Limited Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England Wales No: 1996687 -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniele Ceccarelli Sent: 06 August 2012 13:24 To: Andrew Sullivan; ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity) --! WARNING
Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the hotel cost for a week. note: I pay my own way, and make all my own arrangements. The only meetings where my hotel costs exceeded my transporation costs were the Montreal IETFs (I live in Ottawa). When I've flown I have seldom ever been on direct flights. I *do* avoid the main hotel if the price is poor. I did get the Sheraton Wall (backup hotel IETF84), via hotwire.com, which surprised me. I find staying over saturday night no longer has any affect on my travel costs. I do prefer returning to the same places, and I do like Minneapolis. (Yes, even in March and November) I am more concerned that we have three north-american IETFs in a row (Vancouver, Atlanta, Orlando), and 4 of the next 6 are in North America. (Not counting Hawaii as North America for the purposes of travel budgets, or it's be 5/7) I'm also concerned about going popular places (Quebec, Orlando) during peak tourist season. -- Michael Richardson mcr+i...@sandelman.ca, Sandelman Software Works pgpmbgWROqvNf.pgp Description: PGP signature