Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-18 Thread Stanislav Malyshev
AZLet me add to this: isn't this what open source is about? The bug
AZdid not manifest itself on my system (FreeBSD). You pointed out the
AZissue. I fixed it. Cooperation prevailed. What's the big deal?

Well, the big deal is that sometimes - probably, not this time, but
sometimes - small changes break things that the author didn't even
think about it in some entirely different place. And it's always
unexpected and unforeseen. That's why there's feature freeze period before
release - and, talking about open source, each major open source project
you look at - at least, each one I ever looked at - has it.  This allows
all the system as a whole to be sufficiently tested so that the chance
that it is broken is small. If development code breaks, as you said - it's 
no big deal, you just fix it. But if released code gets broken, 
non-development people have to live with breakage until the next release. 
And living with broken version is much tougher than living without a 
feature. Especially when we talk about such a landmark release as 5.0.0. 
So I think it justifies some kind of freeze paranoia :) - if we don't 
have this and that feature 5.0.0 is still good and people would say that's 
good and probably will be even better, but if it doesn't compile or 
doesn't work for someone - people would say oh, that's a broken one, let 
us not use it.
-- 
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Products Engineer   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.zend.com/ +972-3-6139665 ext.115

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-18 Thread Edin Kadribasic
On Tuesday 18 May 2004 10:41, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:

 Well, the big deal is that sometimes - probably, not this time, but
 sometimes - small changes break things that the author didn't even
 think about it in some entirely different place.

Exactly. Case and point: loading of php extensions from php.ini or via dl() 
being broken at the moment due to one of those small changes.

Edin

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-18 Thread Andrei Zmievski
On Tue, 18 May 2004, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:
 Well, the big deal is that sometimes - probably, not this time, but
 sometimes - small changes break things that the author didn't even
 think about it in some entirely different place. And it's always
 unexpected and unforeseen. That's why there's feature freeze period before
 release - and, talking about open source, each major open source project
 you look at - at least, each one I ever looked at - has it.  This allows
 all the system as a whole to be sufficiently tested so that the chance
 that it is broken is small.

Once again, that is *not* what my reference to open source was about. I
was simply pointing out that we fixed the bug via communication and
cooperation.

- Andrei

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Andrei Zmievski
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Andi Gutmans wrote:
 Yeah I think Zeev is probably right, especially as I don't think we need 
 more than one more RC before we release.
 Andrei, do you mind if we revisit this after 5.0?

How long will 5.1 take after 5.0 is release? A month? A year?

- Andrei

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Andrei Zmievski
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Derick Rethans wrote:
 I guess it would be around a year, and yes, that's a long time to wait
 for a new feature.

Whatever happened to release early, release often philosophy? I can't,
no, I refuse to believe that we have to wait another year to get a new
feature out.

- Andrei

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Derick Rethans
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Andrei Zmievski wrote:

 On Mon, 17 May 2004, Derick Rethans wrote:
  I guess it would be around a year, and yes, that's a long time to wait
  for a new feature.

 Whatever happened to release early, release often philosophy? I can't,
 no, I refuse to believe that we have to wait another year to get a new
 feature out.

Well, i've no problem with something this small to go into a 0.0.1
release, but IMO only minor new features should go in there and leave
the 0.1 releases for larger new features.

regards,
Derick

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RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Wez Furlong
IMO, if we're going to be strict with the feature freeze, Andi/Zeev should
have said no in the first place, rather than allowing it to be committed and
then asking for it to be reverted.

Personally, I'm +1 on this patch getting in PHP 5.0.0, as it is an excellent
companion to the additional ini directory scan stuff.

--Wez. 

 -Original Message-
 From: Derick Rethans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: 17 May 2004 17:46
 To: Andrei Zmievski
 Cc: PHP Developers Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y 
 zend_ini_scanner.l
 
 On Mon, 17 May 2004, Andrei Zmievski wrote:
 
  On Mon, 17 May 2004, Derick Rethans wrote:
   I guess it would be around a year, and yes, that's a long 
 time to wait
   for a new feature.
 
  Whatever happened to release early, release often 
 philosophy? I can't,
  no, I refuse to believe that we have to wait another year 
 to get a new
  feature out.
 
 Well, i've no problem with something this small to go into a 0.0.1
 release, but IMO only minor new features should go in there and leave
 the 0.1 releases for larger new features.
 
 regards,
 Derick
 
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread George Schlossnagle
On May 17, 2004, at 1:08 PM, Wez Furlong wrote:
IMO, if we're going to be strict with the feature freeze, Andi/Zeev 
should
have said no in the first place, rather than allowing it to be 
committed and
then asking for it to be reverted.

Personally, I'm +1 on this patch getting in PHP 5.0.0, as it is an 
excellent
companion to the additional ini directory scan stuff.

Feature freeze has always been highly inconsistently applied.  There 
are plenty of functions added/augmented in point-releases of php4.  
This sudden yearn for a high level of strictness seems to be bad.

George
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Sara Golemon
  Personally, I'm +1 on this patch getting in PHP 5.0.0, as it is an
  excellent
  companion to the additional ini directory scan stuff.

 Feature freeze has always been highly inconsistently applied.  There
 are plenty of functions added/augmented in point-releases of php4.
 This sudden yearn for a high level of strictness seems to be bad.

Sure it's been inconsistently applied, but that doesn't mean that striving
for consistency is inherently bad.  It's especially not bad when the
initial implementation of the exception in question is incompatable with one
of the officially recommended set of build tools (bison 1.75 -- see:
http://www.php.net/anoncvs.php ) and breaks the Win32 snap generation.
Granted that's a minor bug, but it's a perfect illustration of why a feature
freeze exists.

-Sara

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Andrei Zmievski
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Andrei Zmievski wrote:
 On Mon, 17 May 2004, Sara Golemon wrote:
  Sure it's been inconsistently applied, but that doesn't mean that striving
  for consistency is inherently bad.  It's especially not bad when the
  initial implementation of the exception in question is incompatable with one
  of the officially recommended set of build tools (bison 1.75 -- see:
  http://www.php.net/anoncvs.php ) and breaks the Win32 snap generation.
  Granted that's a minor bug, but it's a perfect illustration of why a feature
  freeze exists.
 
 There is no such thing as a feature freeze in PHP land, historically.
 And that minor bug has already been fixed.

Let me add to this: isn't this what open source is about? The bug did
not manifest itself on my system (FreeBSD). You pointed out the issue. I
fixed it. Cooperation prevailed. What's the big deal?

- Andrei

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Andi Gutmans
This is why I allowed important features in despite the feature freeze. 
However, it doesn't mean that unimportant stuff should go in as much as 
people want because otherwise we can't make a good release. I don't think 
open-source is about adding every single feature at any single point of 
time. The result would be horrible instability (not that I think your patch 
fits into this category I'm just saying that even open-source projects need 
some care).
Anyway, due to your patch being pretty much self-contained I thought it 
wouldn't be a big deal to introduce it. However, thinking it over, I don't 
think it's a crucial enough patch to force it in. I doubt you see it this 
way too. What's another 3-4 months going to do? People managed without it 
up to now.

Andi
At 11:27 AM 5/17/2004 -0700, Andrei Zmievski wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Andrei Zmievski wrote:
 On Mon, 17 May 2004, Sara Golemon wrote:
  Sure it's been inconsistently applied, but that doesn't mean that 
striving
  for consistency is inherently bad.  It's especially not bad when the
  initial implementation of the exception in question is incompatable 
with one
  of the officially recommended set of build tools (bison 1.75 -- see:
  http://www.php.net/anoncvs.php ) and breaks the Win32 snap generation.
  Granted that's a minor bug, but it's a perfect illustration of why a 
feature
  freeze exists.

 There is no such thing as a feature freeze in PHP land, historically.
 And that minor bug has already been fixed.

Let me add to this: isn't this what open source is about? The bug did
not manifest itself on my system (FreeBSD). You pointed out the issue. I
fixed it. Cooperation prevailed. What's the big deal?
- Andrei
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Ilia Alshanetsky
But what separates an import feature from a slightly less important one? One 
hand adding self contained function would not affect any of the code outside 
of the function, so why not add it. That said, this function may introduce 
new bugs and further delay the already much overdue release.
We maybe talking about a very handy feature, but this is not even self 
contained code, it affects the ini parsing subsystem which is used in many 
more places then just reading the PHP config file. People use it for 
application configs, PHP uses it for browscap stuff that is already flaky as 
it is, etc... The code could work fine in most cases but not all, we have no 
way of predicting the weirdness people have in their INI files.

Given the number of pending features various people want to add, perhaps now 
is the time for the 5.1 branch where all the new features can go to and if 
some prove to be stable and reliable. Then perhaps they can be introduced in 
5.0.1, which would probably soon follow the 5.0 release. Without a 
development branch we are likely to lose many interesting features as the 
patches would get lost on developers' drivers or stop being compatible with 
latest code revisions. While it certainly may complicate bug fixing as fixes 
will need to be ported across 3 trees in some cases, but that's a small price 
pay for gained flexibility.

Ilia

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Zeev Suraski
I agree with everything Sara says.
So we delay it for a few months, what's the big deal there?
There are several features that we want to insert to PHP 5 but are not 
because of the feature freeze (realpath cache, TSRM updates, 
etc.).  There'll be plenty of reasons to go for 5.1 pretty much immediately 
after the release of 5.0.

Zeev
At 22:17 17/05/2004, Sara Golemon wrote:
 There is no such thing as a feature freeze in PHP land, historically.
 And that minor bug has already been fixed.

Oh what wonderful news, that means I can start commit patches again!  Let's
see, I've got that source binding patch for the network stuff, I've got
those compression filters that I thought were going to have to wait till 5.1
and be supported in 5.0 as a PECL package only so that's good.  Oh and
here's that nice little guy to support HTTP/1.1 chunked encoding, inline
gzip deflates, and connection pooling...  I guess if there's no feature
freeze in PHP land then all this stuff can go in right now.
Either there is a feature freeze or there isn't.  I appreciate the
frustration of having to wait through long and tedious minor version bumps.
I also appreciate the fact that historically PHP versioning has been sloppy,
but that's not a justification for contuing bad behavior.
 Let me add to this: isn't this what open source is about? The bug did
 not manifest itself on my system (FreeBSD). You pointed out the issue. I
 fixed it. Cooperation prevailed. What's the big deal?

Let me respond by saying there wasn't a big deal.  I asked if this was too
late in the RC cycle to justify a non-critical exception to the feature
freeze.  The response of Andi/Zeev okayed it was fine.  But now you're
standing there telling me that there is no such thing as a feature freeze
and THAT is a big deal.  That promotes chaos and a bad end product.  I don't
give a rodent's hind quarters about the ini variable substitution patch, I
care about putting out a good product.  I care about knowing that there's
nothing in the final release that hasn't been well tested.  I care that I
only saw that minor bug because it broke compilation in general, and god
knows if it broke something less obvious.  Has anyone tried this with the
ever-problematic browsecap.ini file?
-Sara
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread George Schlossnagle
Using 4.x as a guide, it's around 1 minor release per year.
Waiting a month or two for a feature seems completely reasonable.  
Waiting a year for it seems onerous.

George
On May 17, 2004, at 3:41 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote:
I agree with everything Sara says.
So we delay it for a few months, what's the big deal there?
There are several features that we want to insert to PHP 5 but are not 
because of the feature freeze (realpath cache, TSRM updates, etc.).  
There'll be plenty of reasons to go for 5.1 pretty much immediately 
after the release of 5.0.
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Zeev Suraski
At 22:49 17/05/2004, George Schlossnagle wrote:
Using 4.x as a guide, it's around 1 minor release per year.
Waiting a month or two for a feature seems completely reasonable.
Waiting a year for it seems onerous.
4.x is completely irrelevant, because we only switched to the approach that 
3rd digit releases contain only bug fixes at a very late stage.  In the 
4.0/4.1 (and maybe 4.2 as well, I don't remember) branches, each 3rd digit 
release contained plenty of new functionality.  2nd digit releases 
symbolized major changes in architecture/compatibility/etc.

Zeev
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Andrei Zmievski
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Andi Gutmans wrote:
 This is why I allowed important features in despite the feature freeze. 
 However, it doesn't mean that unimportant stuff should go in as much as 
 people want because otherwise we can't make a good release. I don't think 
 open-source is about adding every single feature at any single point of 
 time. The result would be horrible instability (not that I think your patch 
 fits into this category I'm just saying that even open-source projects need 
 some care).

I never said that open source is about adding every single feature. My
comment was restricted to Sara's reply about my patch being buggy on
certain versions of bison.

 Anyway, due to your patch being pretty much self-contained I thought it 
 wouldn't be a big deal to introduce it. However, thinking it over, I don't 
 think it's a crucial enough patch to force it in. I doubt you see it this 
 way too. What's another 3-4 months going to do? People managed without it 
 up to now.

I've gotten some pretty strong responses about this patch being a very
useful one.

- Andrei

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Andrei Zmievski
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Ilia Alshanetsky wrote:
 Given the number of pending features various people want to add, perhaps now 
 is the time for the 5.1 branch where all the new features can go to and if 
 some prove to be stable and reliable. Then perhaps they can be introduced in 
 5.0.1, which would probably soon follow the 5.0 release. Without a 
 development branch we are likely to lose many interesting features as the 
 patches would get lost on developers' drivers or stop being compatible with 
 latest code revisions. While it certainly may complicate bug fixing as fixes 
 will need to be ported across 3 trees in some cases, but that's a small price 
 pay for gained flexibility.

I don't mind if it goes into 5.0.1, but waiting a months and months for
5.1 release (which is how long it might take for all intents and
purposes) is not very interesting to me.

- Andrei

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Andrei Zmievski
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Sara Golemon wrote:
 Let me respond by saying there wasn't a big deal.  I asked if this was too
 late in the RC cycle to justify a non-critical exception to the feature
 freeze.  The response of Andi/Zeev okayed it was fine.  But now you're
 standing there telling me that there is no such thing as a feature freeze
 and THAT is a big deal.

Okay, perhaps I shoulve have said that what we have is an approximation
of a feature freeze. We've never had a complete one, because things
besides well tested bug fixes do get committed. I appreciate your
attention to the commits, but let he who is without a sin cast the
first stone.. Speaking generally here, not specifically.

- Andrei

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Andrei Zmievski
It's reverted. Hope everyone's happy.

- Andrei

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Andi Gutmans
Thanks Andrei. I'm sorry about this mess (I know it's my fault).
I think it's becoming clear things are being held back because of the 5.0 
release. As I mentioned I also have some work I'm holding back.
I suggest so that we make sure that things aren't being held back for too 
long we plan on releasing 5.0 ASAP (IMO beginning of July would be a good 
and reasonable goal. Besides a few bug fixes I don't have anything else on 
my TODO).
Once we release, it's probably best to branch 5.1 where we can start adding 
the new features which need more testing (like the ones I'm hoping to add) 
and keep 5.0 for bug fixes. We can then probably release 5.1 within a short 
period of time. Is that OK?

Andi
At 01:10 PM 5/17/2004 -0700, Andrei Zmievski wrote:
It's reverted. Hope everyone's happy.
- Andrei
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Andrei Zmievski
On Tue, 18 May 2004, Andi Gutmans wrote:
 Thanks Andrei. I'm sorry about this mess (I know it's my fault).
 I think it's becoming clear things are being held back because of the 5.0 
 release. As I mentioned I also have some work I'm holding back.
 I suggest so that we make sure that things aren't being held back for too 
 long we plan on releasing 5.0 ASAP (IMO beginning of July would be a good 
 and reasonable goal. Besides a few bug fixes I don't have anything else on 
 my TODO).
 Once we release, it's probably best to branch 5.1 where we can start adding 
 the new features which need more testing (like the ones I'm hoping to add) 
 and keep 5.0 for bug fixes. We can then probably release 5.1 within a short 
 period of time. Is that OK?

Let's do it.

- Andrei

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Jason Garber
It may be worth noting the way MySQL AB has been rolling out MySQL.  They 
released 4.0.0 as a restructured release, did bug fixes and small changes 
up through 4.0.19, and are approaching the release of 4.1 with significant 
new features.  It sounds like the same might apply here.

~Jason
At 5/18/2004 12:03 AM +0300, Andi Gutmans wrote:
Thanks Andrei. I'm sorry about this mess (I know it's my fault).
I think it's becoming clear things are being held back because of the 5.0 
release. As I mentioned I also have some work I'm holding back.
I suggest so that we make sure that things aren't being held back for too 
long we plan on releasing 5.0 ASAP (IMO beginning of July would be a good 
and reasonable goal. Besides a few bug fixes I don't have anything else on 
my TODO).
Once we release, it's probably best to branch 5.1 where we can start 
adding the new features which need more testing (like the ones I'm hoping 
to add) and keep 5.0 for bug fixes. We can then probably release 5.1 
within a short period of time. Is that OK?

Andi
At 01:10 PM 5/17/2004 -0700, Andrei Zmievski wrote:
It's reverted. Hope everyone's happy.
- Andrei
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-17 Thread Sebastian Bergmann
George Schlossnagle wrote:
 Using 4.x as a guide, it's around 1 minor release per year.

  Why not follow the good example of for instance the GNOME project?

  They make 2 minor releases per year (with bugfix release in between) and
  have a public release schedule / feature roadmap for each release.

-- 
Sebastian Bergmann
http://sebastian-bergmann.de/   http://phpOpenTracker.de/

Das Buch zu PHP 5: http://professionelle-softwareentwicklung-mit-php5.de/

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-16 Thread Andi Gutmans
At 01:10 PM 5/15/2004 -0700, Sara Golemon wrote:
A) Isn't it late in the RC cycle to be adding features?
Although personally I don't think this patch is very important/useful, it's 
quite self-contained so we thought it'd wouldn't be a big deal to add it.
It is kind of late and I do prefer not to add new features at this time 
unless they are tiny or important... I guess I saw this one as tiny.

Andi
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-16 Thread Andi Gutmans
Yeah I think Zeev is probably right, especially as I don't think we need 
more than one more RC before we release.
Andrei, do you mind if we revisit this after 5.0?

Andi
At 12:00 PM 5/16/2004 +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote:
At 09:11 16/05/2004, Andi Gutmans wrote:
At 01:10 PM 5/15/2004 -0700, Sara Golemon wrote:
A) Isn't it late in the RC cycle to be adding features?
Although personally I don't think this patch is very important/useful, 
it's quite self-contained so we thought it'd wouldn't be a big deal to add it.
It is kind of late and I do prefer not to add new features at this time 
unless they are tiny or important... I guess I saw this one as tiny.
Even though I think this patch is fine, I think we're best off waiting 
with it until 5.1, if only to avoid opening the door to additional tiny 
patches.  Especially when it's not very easy to define the borderline 
between what's tiny and what isn't.

Andrei - do you mind reverting the patch until 5.1?
Zeev
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: ZendEngine2 / zend_ini_parser.y zend_ini_scanner.l

2004-05-16 Thread Sara Golemon
  A) Isn't it late in the RC cycle to be adding features?

 I guess not. I got OK from Andi  Zeev.

I realized after sending that it sounded a bit hostile.  I apologize for
that, but I was under the impression that we're into critical-only territory
at this point, and this feature is hardly critical.  No strong feelings one
way or the other though.

  B) You're mising a ;   (line 259)

 Where exactly? What file? It compiles fine for me.

Zend/zend_ini_parse.y

http://cvs.php.net/co.php/ZendEngine2/zend_ini_parser.y

And in fact, now that I look again, you're missing a couple of 'em.  One to
terminate the var_string_list: block and another to terminate the
cfg_var_ref: block.

Maybe your version of bison is more forgiving than mine, I'm using 1.75.
Looks like it's enough to stop the Win32 snap though:

http://snaps.php.net/win32/snapshot.log

 \cygwin\bin\bison.exe --output=Zend/zend_ini_parser.c -v -d -p ini_
Zend/zend_ini_parser.y
Zend/zend_ini_parser.y:261.12: parse error, unexpected :, expecting ; or
|
Zend/zend_ini_parser.y:267.20-54: invalid $ value
Zend/zend_ini_parser.y:268.20-54: invalid $ value
NMAKE : fatal error U1077: '\cygwin\bin\bison.exe' : return code '0x1'
Stop.
NMAKE : fatal error U1077: 'c:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual
Studio\VC98\bin\NMAKE.EXE' : return code '0x2'
Stop.

My error message under Linux amounts to the same:

bison -y -p ini_ -v -d /home/sarag/cvs/php5/Zend/zend_ini_parser.y -o
Zend/zend_ini_parser.c
/home/sarag/cvs/php5/Zend/zend_ini_parser.y:261.12: parse error, unexpected
:, expecting ; or |
/home/sarag/cvs/php5/Zend/zend_ini_parser.y:267.20-54: invalid $ value
/home/sarag/cvs/php5/Zend/zend_ini_parser.y:268.20-54: invalid $ value
make: *** [Zend/zend_ini_parser.c] Error 1


-Sara

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