FW: KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010

[John Martindale]

Hi Glenn

Yeh. I think you did but I don't just what :-)

I'm pretty sure a bolt in double shear apparently is proportionately
stronger than two single ones in single shear of the same dia. I presume the
Australian authorities knew what they were on about when they insisted on
thisbut then again I'm known for my dislike of the buggers.

John Martindale
29 Jane Circuit
Toormina NSW 2452
AUSTRALIA
ph: 61 2 6658 4767
mobile: 0403 432179
email: john_martind...@bigpond.com

snipDid I miss somthing in physics class?

-- 
Glenn Martin (N5PQ)
Martek Mississippi Electronic Repair
13238 Hudson-Krohn Rd.
Biloxi, MS, 39532
rep...@martekmississippi.com


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KR> WAF spacers

[Ronald Wright]

Hi Mark,

Did you use steel spacers; or would aluminum work or will it "crush" over time?

Thanks,

Ron

--- On Sat, 10/2/10, Mark Langford  wrote:

> From: Mark Langford 
> Subject: KR> WAF spacers
> To: "KRnet" 
> Date: Saturday, October 2, 2010, 9:30 PM
> Replacing the two bolts with one
> longer one and a spacer replaces two bolts 
> in single shear (not the best) with one bolt in double
> shear, which is far 
> better.  Although I knew it already,  I relearned
> that lesson when I checked 
> my flaps after 930 hours and found the oilite bushings
> elongated and some 
> slop in the flap...because I'd used two short pins in each
> hinge rather than 
> one longer one (due to clearance reasons).  Simply
> replacing the two with 
> one longer one eliminated the slop.  All the spacer
> does in between two WAF 
> fittings is enable you to tighten the bolt up without
> pinching the WAF 
> fittings together and breaking some wooden stuff.  I
> did the single bolt and 
> spacer thing when I revamped my wing tips, added the gas
> tank, and put my 
> WAFs in double shear.  I guess I should conjure up a
> picture to show the 
> point...
> 
> Mark Langford
> N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
> website at http://www.N56ML.com
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> WAF spacers

[Glenn Martin]

OK Guys..bear with me. the concept of the Experimental Aircraft program 
is for Personal Education, and I am certainly learning something I had 
not considered before. A slightly different way for me to view this is 
that the spacer between them tends to make the two separate WAFS act 
more like a stiffer single unit. Thus the bending load on the single 
bolt is reduced to zero, and the strength of every component is 
optimized. How'd I do?

BTW..Consider your concept integrated into N1333A.

Glenn Martin (N5PQ)
Martek Mississippi Electronic Repair
13238 Hudson-Krohn Rd.
Biloxi, MS, 39532
rep...@martekmississippi.com

KR> WAF spacers

[Mark Langford]

OK, this isn't the greatest picture, but check out 
http://www.n56ml.com/900hour/100717140m.jpg .  It shows a thin aluminum 
angle used to position a 3/8" nutplate for each WAF bolt, and one continuous 
WAF bolt for what was a place for two (in single shear).  Astute viewers 
will notice there's too much thread on the bolt (you don't want to put 
threads in shear, and you don't want them in contact with the WAF either, if 
possible), so some longer ones were ordered and installed, excess threads 
removed, and it worked out nicely.

What's missing in the photo is the aluminum spacers between each WAF.  I 
think it was just too hoaky looking and hideous to make a photograph of, 
because I simply JB Welded them in place!  Done "properly", they'd be 
supported by their own little aluminum angles like the nut plates were, but 
given that OSH was about three days away when I took this picture, some 
things just didn't happen.

"Friction" isn't really a factor in WAFs.  It's almost pure shear.  Friction 
is just icing on the cake to take the slack out of the connection, so the 
wings won't have any up and down play at the tip, and that's one of the 
things the spacers do for you when you tighten down the bolts.  You could 
simply put a pin in the hole and go flying, but tightening them down is 
better...

Mark Langford
N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
website at http://www.N56ML.com

KR> WAF spacers

[Glenn Martin]

Thank you Mark. With your info, I did a short Google search and came up 
with this article:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/NutsandBolts/Nuts_signed.pdf

So the point is that with one bolt on each fitting, only that one 
fitting must lose friction in order to load its bolt in shear. With ONE 
bolt across both junctions BOTH fittings will have to lose friction in 
order to load the bolt in shear. Thus: there is a doubling of friction , 
decreasing the odds of loading the single bolt In shear. Do I have that 
correct?

-- 
Glenn Martin (N5PQ)
Martek Mississippi Electronic Repair
13238 Hudson-Krohn Rd.
Biloxi, MS, 39532
rep...@martekmississippi.com

KR> WAF spacers

[Pete]

  Thank you Mark.
I was actually in the process of drawing up the WAF's in SolidWorks to 
illustrate the difference, but you nailed it right there.
Cheers.
Pete.

On 3/10/2010 13:30, Mark Langford wrote:
> Replacing the two bolts with one longer one and a spacer replaces two bolts
> in single shear (not the best) with one bolt in double shear, which is far
> better.  Although I knew it already,  I relearned that lesson when I checked
> my flaps after 930 hours and found the oilite bushings elongated and some
> slop in the flap...because I'd used two short pins in each hinge rather than
> one longer one (due to clearance reasons).  Simply replacing the two with
> one longer one eliminated the slop.  All the spacer does in between two WAF
> fittings is enable you to tighten the bolt up without pinching the WAF
> fittings together and breaking some wooden stuff.  I did the single bolt and
> spacer thing when I revamped my wing tips, added the gas tank, and put my
> WAFs in double shear.  I guess I should conjure up a picture to show the
> point...
>
> Mark Langford
> N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
> website at http://www.N56ML.com

KR> WAF spacers

[Mark Langford]

Replacing the two bolts with one longer one and a spacer replaces two bolts 
in single shear (not the best) with one bolt in double shear, which is far 
better.  Although I knew it already,  I relearned that lesson when I checked 
my flaps after 930 hours and found the oilite bushings elongated and some 
slop in the flap...because I'd used two short pins in each hinge rather than 
one longer one (due to clearance reasons).  Simply replacing the two with 
one longer one eliminated the slop.  All the spacer does in between two WAF 
fittings is enable you to tighten the bolt up without pinching the WAF 
fittings together and breaking some wooden stuff.  I did the single bolt and 
spacer thing when I revamped my wing tips, added the gas tank, and put my 
WAFs in double shear.  I guess I should conjure up a picture to show the 
point...

Mark Langford
N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
website at http://www.N56ML.com

FW: KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010

[Glenn Martin]

Pete wrote:
>It's the addition of the tube spacer that adds the strength not the
> length of the bolt. What it effectively does is take an area that has
> two potential failure modes and replaces it with one.
> Cheers.
>
O k..but that is not SHEAR STRENGTH we're talking about, and I cant see 
any improvement in the Tensile Strength either.  Common sense seems to 
indicate that if one bolt fails in a single bolt structure, the results 
would likely be more catastrophic than if one bolt fails in a two bolt 
system. It does not make sense to me. That being said,  what are these 
"Failure Modes"you are referring to?

-- 
Glenn Martin (N5PQ)
Martek Mississippi Electronic Repair
13238 Hudson-Krohn Rd.
Biloxi, MS, 39532
rep...@martekmississippi.com

FW: KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010

[Pete]

  It's the addition of the tube spacer that adds the strength not the 
length of the bolt. What it effectively does is take an area that has 
two potential failure modes and replaces it with one.
Cheers.
Peter Bancks.
Ballina, Oz.


On 3/10/2010 12:49, Glenn Martin wrote:
> I can see how a thicker bolt could improve shear strength, or a bolt of
> a greater rating, but unless I am missing something, I see no way that a
> longer bolt of the same type and size could improve its shear strength
> at the wing attach fitting junction through an increase in its length.
> Did I miss somthing in physics class?

FW: KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010

[Glenn Martin]

John Martindale wrote:
> A long time ago before "experimental" came along (like in the 1980s), the
> Australian authorities did mandate a change to the bolt arrangement that
> specified a spacer tube between each pair of WAFs and a longer single
> through bolt instead of two short independent bolts.
>
> I think this reflects a better engineering solution with respect to shear
> forces
I can see how a thicker bolt could improve shear strength, or a bolt of 
a greater rating, but unless I am missing something, I see no way that a 
longer bolt of the same type and size could improve its shear strength 
at the wing attach fitting junction through an increase in its length. 
Did I miss somthing in physics class?

-- 
Glenn Martin (N5PQ)
Martek Mississippi Electronic Repair
13238 Hudson-Krohn Rd.
Biloxi, MS, 39532
rep...@martekmississippi.com

KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010

[Larry Flesner]

My copy of KITPLANES came today and I did a quick read of the 
article.  With the exception of that one statement, I thought the 
article was quite positive overall and cast a good light on the 
KR.  I guess we'll see what the public reaction is long term.

Larry Flesner

FW: KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010

[John Martindale]

Hi Mark

A long time ago before "experimental" came along (like in the 1980s), the
Australian authorities did mandate a change to the bolt arrangement that
specified a spacer tube between each pair of WAFs and a longer single
through bolt instead of two short independent bolts. 

I think this reflects a better engineering solution with respect to shear
forces but having said that there were no instances of any failures at the
time and I know of none since under the original RR arrangement.

The Aussie authorities mandated a number of things back then that are now
superceded by experience or supply (like glues and Dynon cloth) but several
remain valid, eg., flight in the rear 2" of CoG envelope.

John Martindale
29 Jane Circuit
Toormina NSW 2452
AUSTRALIA

ph: 61 2 6658 4767
mobile: 0403 432179
email: john_martind...@bigpond.com

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of Mark Langford
Sent: Friday, 1 October 2010 3:54 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010

I met Bob Grimstead while in Perth.  He's a nice guy, likes to write "flight

test" articles for Aussie and US magazines, but apparently he's not 
qualified to speak to the integrity of the KR wing attach system.  The 
Aussies have dictated a couple of changes to KRs built and flown there, but 
"improving" the WAFs isn't one of them, as far as I know.

..snip.

KR> progress

[Craig Williams]

Picked up my 64 Corvair 110 in Chicago today.  Headed to Minneapolis tomorrow 
to 
get the plane.  Will post some pics after I get back to KC.

Craig

KR> Lengthen Horizontal Stabilizer?

[Jon Finley]

Mark,

I could not tell for sure what Troy did from his pictures so good to get the
scoop. Now that I look again, I see the word "extended" on the caption so
must have been my learning disability rearing its head again! ;-)

So, to be really clear. It is "acceptable" to extend the per-plans
horizontal stabilizer six inches on each side by glassing on a "long tip".
No need to extend the spars. 

Thanks,

Jon Finley
N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22
http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx


> -Original Message-
> From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On
> Behalf Of Mark Langford
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 9:10 PM
> To: KRnet
> Subject: Re: KR> Lengthen Horizontal Stabilizer?
> 
> Steven Bedford wrote:
> 
> > Checkout Jeff Scott's website click on tail mods.
> > http://jscott.comlu.com/KR/KRmods.html
> 
> And Troy Petteway has done the same thing (http://www.n56ml.com/troy/).
> Just "shell it" in two layers of carbon fiber for a few inches on each
> side.
> That's how I did my Hoerner tips also...
> 
> Mark Langford
> N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
> website at http://www.N56ML.com

KR> Article

[Virgil N. Salisbury]

  Did you ever think that someone would write an article and include a
 controversial item just to see how many were reading and would pop
  up and defend an opposite view, Virg

KR> Looking to trade a TriQ200 project for a KR2s project.

[Marty Martin]

Hello KR netters

I am looking to trade my TriQ200 project for a KR2s project.  The TriQ is
complete but for the instruments, plumbing and engine.  Next weekend, the
9th of Oct. I will be able to take photos of the TriQ.
The canard, wings, tail section, fuel tanks and lines to firewall are in.  I
have the new nose gear and wheel farings.  I have the cowling by Ernest
Martin, Plenum cooling ducts.  The origonal cowling design is also
included.  All parts and pieces are there to complete except for those
mentioned above but you will have to paint.
What I am looking for is a project with all parts and pieces to complete.  I
will consider a standard KR2 but would prefer a 'S' model.  I would like to
find one that is at least 42" wide at the shoalder area.
Give me a call and I will tell you all that I can.  661-747-8608.  I am in
Tehachapi, CA

M. Greg Martin

KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010

[Todd Price]

I'm not sure if anyone has said this yet but we can always submit an article
with know examples of how well the wing attachments work. Right now we are
preaching to the choir and need to get the message out to the masses,

Todd

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Larry H.  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> 
>
> From: Michael Taglieri
>
>
> Mike,
> I am not sure anyone on this list is concerned about the wing attach
> fittings
> and bolts, we know better. I think what some are aggrevated about is the
> mis-information or mis-representation about the wings in general. The
> writer
> should have done more research on that subject before he just threw that
> out
> there. A lot of builders spend a lot of money building KR2s then when
> mis-information is put out there from a writer/test pilot, many will assume
> he
> knows what he is talking about. This mis-information may then turn some
> away
> from buying a used KR or it may cause them to just build a different
> airplane
> because they are afraid their wings will fall off if they were to build a
> KR.
> All of this makes the KR line less valuable. I think this is the issue, or
> at
> least it is with me, any KR owner and anyone like Steve Glover who probably
> has
> a big investment into the KRs now.
> This is my impression on the article, or at least would be my thinking if I
> were
> to be looking at building a KR and I did not know the history or anything
> about
> them other than I liked the look and the option of non kit ability to
> build.
> Remember the V-tail Bonanza? Many are still afraid of those. I own a 1947
> Bonanza, it is a V-tail. There has never been a tail failure on one of
> these
> because it has a smaller tail than the 3 or 4 year newer Bonanzas that have
> a
> larger V-tail. The newer Bonanzas have lost tails because of pilot error. A
> repair on the leading edge root/fuselage intersection was required to fix
> this
> problem. But since it is in the head of some people that the tails fall off
> of
> Bonanzas they will never have one. The same could apply to any aircraft
> once
> someone throws the scare out in an article such as this one.
>
> Just my calm thoughtful opinion
> Larry Howell   I think people may be getting too concerned about that
> line
> about the
>
> wing-attack bolts.  On the whole, the article was VERY favorable,
> Mike Taglieri  miket_...@verizon.net
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>



-- 
Todd Price
Chandler, AZ

KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010

[Larry H.]

From: Michael Taglieri 


Mike,
I am not sure anyone on this list is concerned about the wing attach fittings 
and bolts, we know better. I think what some are aggrevated about is the 
mis-information or mis-representation about the wings in general. The writer 
should have done more research on that subject before he just threw that out 
there. A lot of builders spend a lot of money building KR2s then when 
mis-information is put out there from a writer/test pilot, many will assume he 
knows what he is talking about. This mis-information may then turn some away 
from buying a used KR or it may cause them to just build a different airplane 
because they are afraid their wings will fall off if they were to build a KR. 
All of this makes the KR line less valuable. I think this is the issue, or at 
least it is with me, any KR owner and anyone like Steve Glover who probably has 
a big investment into the KRs now. 
This is my impression on the article, or at least would be my thinking if I 
were 
to be looking at building a KR and I did not know the history or anything about 
them other than I liked the look and the option of non kit ability to build. 
Remember the V-tail Bonanza? Many are still afraid of those. I own a 1947 
Bonanza, it is a V-tail. There has never been a tail failure on one of these 
because it has a smaller tail than the 3 or 4 year newer Bonanzas that have a 
larger V-tail. The newer Bonanzas have lost tails because of pilot error. A 
repair on the leading edge root/fuselage intersection was required to fix this 
problem. But since it is in the head of some people that the tails fall off of 
Bonanzas they will never have one. The same could apply to any aircraft once 
someone throws the scare out in an article such as this one.

Just my calm thoughtful opinion
Larry Howell   I think people may be getting too concerned about that line 
about the 

wing-attack bolts.  On the whole, the article was VERY favorable, 
Mike Taglieri  miket_...@verizon.net

KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010

[Michael Taglieri]

I think people may be getting too concerned about that line about the 
wing-attack bolts.   On the whole, the article was VERY favorable, and it 
should encourage many people to look into the KR who weren't considering it 
before.  But if you write to the magazine, I would also mention that most 
KR's are now built with fixed gear.  The writer seems to suggest that the 
retractable gear is still the norm.

Mike Taglieri  miket_...@verizon.net

  Everyone has his reasons.
   - Jean Renoir "The Rules of the Game"

- Original Message - 
From: "Patrick and Robin Russo" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010


> Gentlemen,
> remember this axiom; "A battle of wits with the witless is indeed a losing
> battle"! Do not respond in anger.These publications and their writers can
> some times be very disappointing to many of us who contribute to them.
>  You can take solace in another old saying, this one from the great poet
> Keats, "There is a pleasure in madness that only us madmen know"!
> Pat
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Plane Nut" 
> To: "'KRnet'" 
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:56 PM
> Subject: RE: KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010
>
>
>>I am really miffed about this article.  I would like to know what this
>>guy's
>> qualifications are to make this assumption.  I know of no failures of the
>> wing attach fittings on any KR.
>> Subject: KR> KR2 ARTICLE-KITPLANES NOV 2010
>>
>> There is an article written by Bob Grimstead about KR2s The wing 
>> bolts
>> and attach plates can be problem areas,
>
>>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>