Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Martin Srebotnjak]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :
> So effectively such placing of the comments is a thing of future, relying on
> several changes in the technological process (comments proper + toolkit
> refactored)?
>
> I was more interested in what might be done in that matter sort of now and
> read your message from a wrong perspective.
>

As Sophie wrote, it might already be possible, the right person to ask
would be ... Andras?

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

So effectively such placing of the comments is a 
thing of future, relying on several changes in 
the technological process (comments proper + 
toolkit refactored)?


I was more interested in what might be done in 
that matter sort of now and read your message 
from a wrong perspective.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 07:40 PM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :


So where would the comment come from after the re-generation?



I have written that already in another mail - from the code, from the
same place where the string comes. There should be some refactoring of
the toolkit to get pot files generated, of course.

Lp, m.



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Sophie]

Hi,
Le 23/07/2013 18:40, Martin Srebotnjak a écrit :

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :


So where would the comment come from after the re-generation?



I have written that already in another mail - from the code, from the
same place where the string comes. There should be some refactoring of
the toolkit to get pot files generated, of course.


I've already seen this one or two times, some comments in the code 
filled for l10n purpose. What I'm not sure of is if they appear in 
Pootle as a comment.


Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Martin Srebotnjak]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :
>
> So where would the comment come from after the re-generation?
>
>
I have written that already in another mail - from the code, from the
same place where the string comes. There should be some refactoring of
the toolkit to get pot files generated, of course.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 07/23/2013 07:23 PM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

SDF is deprecated - POT files are generated directly from code, and PO
files are directly checked back into code.


So where would the comment come from after the 
re-generation?


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Martin Srebotnjak]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :
>
> On 07/23/2013 06:48 PM, Sophie wrote:
> ...
>
>>> Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the
>>> root source of English strings?
>>> Is one Andras publishes such root source?
>>> Or is there one more root-ish than that?
>>
>>
>> The latest pot file is published here by Andras
>> http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/
>>
>> Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or
>> as a repository.
>
>
> Yes, us for one. :) That's why I'm asking: what is the definitive source for
> the English strings and their context? E.g., in the pre-split days there was
> SDF root source and POT fileset was a derivative.
>

SDF is deprecated - POT files are generated directly from code, and PO
files are directly checked back into code.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 07/23/2013 06:48 PM, Sophie wrote:
...

Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the
root source of English strings?
Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?


The latest pot file is published here by Andras
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/

Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or
as a repository.


Yes, us for one. :) That's why I'm asking: what 
is the definitive source for the English strings 
and their context? E.g., in the pre-split days 
there was SDF root source and POT fileset was a 
derivative.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Martin Srebotnjak]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :
> Would such comment be a solution, really?
>
> For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is being constantly lost, if
> slowly.
>
> Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root source of English strings?
> Is one Andras publishes such root source?
> Or is there one more root-ish than that?

A pot file can contain an English/source comment, a po file keeps that
comment and can add/edit a localized version or comment to that
comment.
So I think that would be the solution for those few tricky strings.

I just hope that when pot files are generated they would also get the
comment from the code i.e. the comment for pot file should be included
with the original string in the code. Someone correct me if I am
wrong.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Sophie]

Le 23/07/2013 17:39, Yury Tarasievich a écrit :

Would such comment be a solution, really?


I don't know, we find the bug because we use the same set of docs during 
the tests of FR versions. Then we narrow that the EN version was ok and 
the bug appears between beta1 and beta2 and was present in other 
languages. So may be yes, having some comments in the po file would help 
to not propagate that sort of error.


For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is being constantly lost,
if slowly.

Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root source of English strings?
Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?


The latest pot file is published here by Andras
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/

Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or as a repository.
Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

Would such comment be a solution, really?

For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is 
being constantly lost, if slowly.


Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root 
source of English strings?

Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 05:35 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
...

And yes, a comment in the po file is one way to avoid that. And yes,
not using the translated names as internal IDs of course is better. It
will confuse the heck out of users to have two styles with the same
name, with no way to distinguish them. But at least the document state
would stay consistent. So you would still need the additional
checks/hint for translators.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Sérgio, *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Sérgio Marques  wrote:
> 2013/7/23 Martin Srebotnjak 

Why was there no announcement when getting the changes from pootle?
→ because there was no check that triggered a warning. Also there was
no merge-conflict, as the problem is not with the translated strings,
but how they are used.

And yes, a comment in the po file is one way to avoid that. And yes,
not using the translated names as internal IDs of course is better. It
will confuse the heck out of users to have two styles with the same
name, with no way to distinguish them. But at least the document state
would stay consistent. So you would still need the additional
checks/hint for translators.

> Agreed but please notice that those strings came from OO and never was the
> need to change.

No need for change was always there - but probably nobody complained
for that language. This time round, large language communities were
affected that did spot the inconsistency. So call it luck that the
bigger groups did make that mistake to take this problem into focus.

>> 2013/7/23 Sérgio Marques :
>> > 2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić 
>> >>  On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
>> > [...]
>> > But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
>> > we fix?

I thought this was pretty clear: You must not use the same string for
those two IDs. The Heading style must have a different translation
than then Title style.

>> >> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...

At least nobody did spot that problem in all the time where the
strings were the same for over 30 languages...

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Sérgio Marques]

2013/7/23 Martin Srebotnjak 

> I have a solution.
>
> PO files do have a comment field.
>
> This was unused before because the actual strings resided in sdf files
> and po files were just a derivative of sdf files. But now PO and POT
> files are the true base.
>
> So I guess it is job of authors of strings and documentation team to
> write to those fields, as well as translation teams to warn co-workers
> and other teams with a short notice that can prevent disaster (BEWARE:
> this translation should not be the same as with style Title ...).
>
>
Agreed but please notice that those strings came from OO and never was the
need to change. To add those comments we need to review strings and know
what they are used for.

I must say even tough I´m fluent in English, I don´t use all suite so I
really can´t tell which one are fine or not.

Nor do I have the ability to produce code cause I´m not a developer.

What I can do is spot when some string is wrong and propose a correction
but also as bug report and not coding.

Regards



> Lp, m.
>
> 2013/7/23 Sérgio Marques :
> > 2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić 
> >
> >>  On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and
> >> I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.
> >>
> >>
> >> Also:
> >>
> >> If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
> >> proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should
> stay
> >> as is.
> >>
> >>  I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if
> >> original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about
> >> that, it can not be translated the same.
> >>
> >
> > But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
> > we fix?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sérgio Marques
> >
> > --
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> deleted
>



-- 
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Martin Srebotnjak]

I have a solution.

PO files do have a comment field.

This was unused before because the actual strings resided in sdf files
and po files were just a derivative of sdf files. But now PO and POT
files are the true base.

So I guess it is job of authors of strings and documentation team to
write to those fields, as well as translation teams to warn co-workers
and other teams with a short notice that can prevent disaster (BEWARE:
this translation should not be the same as with style Title ...).

Lp, m.

2013/7/23 Sérgio Marques :
> 2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić 
>
>>  On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and
>> I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.
>>
>>
>> Also:
>>
>> If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
>> proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
>> as is.
>>
>>  I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if
>> original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about
>> that, it can not be translated the same.
>>
>
> But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
> we fix?
>
>
>
>
>>
>> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Sérgio Marques
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Sérgio Marques]

2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić 

>  On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
>
>
> I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and
> I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.
>
>
> Also:
>
> If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
> proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
> as is.
>
>  I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if
> original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about
> that, it can not be translated the same.
>

But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
we fix?




>
> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...
>
>
>
>


-- 
Sérgio Marques

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Krunoslav Šebetić  wrote:
> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...

I disagree: why is it our fault? Shouldn't LibreOffice handle styles
in a translation-agnostic way in the first place?

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Krunoslav Šebetić]

On 07/23/2013 01:53 PM, Krunoslav Šebetić wrote:

On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:



2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić >


On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a
particular language has had it's translations broken or
corrupted in some way.  Obviously the example of "French" was
a bit daft because the French translation is always
excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good example of
when a veto might be needed or might have been good.  You
always seem to fix any problems.  Perhaps having a formal
veto option "written up" as a rule might encourage the very
problem it's trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)


Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement
list and worn translator to check their translations and then
pool fixed translations from Pootle before official rc, so that
all languages can get valid (the bug free) release?



Usually when there are translation conflicts, Andras used to send a 
message.


If he didn´t do it, I suppose that all merge went fine, isn´t it?



I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, 
and I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.


Also:

If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
as is.
I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, 
if original differs heading from title, translators should be careful 
about that, it can not be translated the same.


We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...



It just can be two identical strings in same part/feature of the same 
module of LO, maybe in different parts, features or modules, but can't 
have two the same heading titles. I'm not sure is that even a bug...



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Krunoslav Šebetić]

On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:



2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić >


On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a
particular language has had it's translations broken or
corrupted in some way.  Obviously the example of "French" was
a bit daft because the French translation is always excellent.
 However, it's difficult to see a good example of when a veto
might be needed or might have been good.  You always seem to
fix any problems.  Perhaps having a formal veto option
"written up" as a rule might encourage the very problem it's
trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)


Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement
list and worn translator to check their translations and then pool
fixed translations from Pootle before official rc, so that all
languages can get valid (the bug free) release?



Usually when there are translation conflicts, Andras used to send a 
message.


If he didn´t do it, I suppose that all merge went fine, isn´t it?



I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and 
I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.


Also:

If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
as is.
I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if 
original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about 
that, it can not be translated the same.


We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Sérgio Marques]

2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić 

> On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
>
>> Hi :)
>> I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a particular
>> language has had it's translations broken or corrupted in some way.
>>  Obviously the example of "French" was a bit daft because the French
>> translation is always excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good
>> example of when a veto might be needed or might have been good.  You always
>> seem to fix any problems.  Perhaps having a formal veto option "written up"
>> as a rule might encourage the very problem it's trying to forestall?
>> Regards from
>> Tom :)
>>
>
> Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement list and
> worn translator to check their translations and then pool fixed
> translations from Pootle before official rc, so that all languages can get
> valid (the bug free) release?



Usually when there are translation conflicts, Andras used to send a message.

If he didn´t do it, I suppose that all merge went fine, isn´t it?

Regards
-- 
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[libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Krunoslav Šebetić]

On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a particular language has had it's 
translations broken or corrupted in some way.  Obviously the example of "French" was a 
bit daft because the French translation is always excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good 
example of when a veto might be needed or might have been good.  You always seem to fix any 
problems.  Perhaps having a formal veto option "written up" as a rule might encourage the 
very problem it's trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)


Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement list 
and worn translator to check their translations and then pool fixed 
translations from Pootle before official rc, so that all languages can 
get valid (the bug free) release?


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