[lace] Miss Channer - Crowood web site
In response to Lynn's information about Crowood not being able to identify the title, I've sent them all the information about the mat i.e. the fact that it was a supplement, the format it took, what was printed on it, the paper folder it came in, e.t.c., publication details of In the Cause of English Lace (which, of course, they already have) in the hope they can find it. I added that there are some lacemakers who would sell their grandmothers to get their hands on a legal copy! It's quite possible that Ruth Bean didn't include the mat as part of the sale of their business, in which case that edition is lost forever, but at least we'll know that that avenue can't be pursued further. Jean Nathan in Poole, Dorset, UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Miss Channer - Crowood web site
It's possible that Ruth Bean was licenced,by C C Channer's heirs, to use the pricking, but the copyright remained with her heirs. If that is the case then only the artwork for the Ruth Bean version will be copyrighted to Ruth Bean's heirs. Brenda On 8 Jan 2014, at 08:16, Jean Nathan wrote: It's quite possible that Ruth Bean didn't include the mat as part of the sale of their business, in which case that edition is lost forever, but at least we'll know that that avenue can't be pursued further. Brenda in Allhallows www.brendapaternoster.co.uk - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Miss Channer - Crowood Website
I've already had a rely from Crowood: Thank you for your reply. We understand that Ruth Bean published it as a supplement to the title In the Cause of English Lace, however, so far we have been unable to trace the artwork for it. Yours Ken Hathaway Whether that means they'll continue looking is unclear. Jean Nathan in Poole, Dorset, UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Miss Channer mat- copyright
Just looked at the Copyright Law page again and it states that: For literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies.If the author is unknown, copyright will last for 70 years from end of the calendar year in which the work was created, although if it is made available to the public during that time, (by publication, authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.), then the duration will be 70 years from the end of the year that the work was first made available. So for any other versions which have no designer noted on them, it would really need to be established when it was first made available to establish when copyright runs out - good luck with that. Jean Nathan in Poole, Dorset, UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Miss Channer mat
Happy New Year Diana I've been following with interest the posts about Miss Channer's mat and wonder if it might be a good idea to contact Tricia Bury, as she might possibly know a little more of the history relating to the pricking(s)? Fond Regards Cathy Catherine Barley Needlelace www.catherinebarley.com - Original Message - From: Diana Smith Subject: [lace] Miss Channer's mat I have just notice that the acknowledgement to Pat Bury in the pattern pack is for 'The adapted pricking, sample and note' - so the large mat picture is the original? Sorry am I playing catch up here ;-) Diana - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Miss Channer mat
My 1928 first edition of 'Pratical Lacemaking - Bucks Point-Ground' says exacty the same. There is no other mention that I can find in the text of the mat. I have in the past recognised some of the component parts as having come from other, possibly older, designs. I guess that is only to be expected considering the wealth of old designs she had at her fingertips. It is a shame that much of her collection was split up between various different museums as she would have been in a prime position during her lace life to acquire many of the old parchments. I have just notice that the acknowledgement to Pat Bury in the pattern pack is for 'The adapted pricking, sample and note' - so the large mat picture is the original? Sorry am I playing catch up here ;-) Diana - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Miss channer
I was in contact with Channer family members some years ago - not now though. Vera, a niece of Miss Channer, came to spend a day with me with her son and his partner. As you can imagine I was thrilled. We took them to the church as Desborough where Miss Channers father had been vicar in the late eighteen hundreds. We arranged for Vera's son to go up the tower and wind the church clock. Diana Sent from my iPad - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
I would like to compliment you on the lovely lace and also on finishing it so quickly.Thanks for the info on the thread etc.Can you please tell me if you worked the mat at the original size or reduce it. If you reduced it then by how much. It is also referred to as Miss Channer Chantilly style.Did you use chantilly techniques or still use the Bucks ones, or a mix of both.I am sorry if you have been asked these questions before but I only came onto Arachne at Easter. What lace do you plan to do next? I guess it will need some thought, or do you have a list as long as your arm. I know I do. Maureen From East Yorkshire where the weather has been mixed with both rain, wind and sunshine, although cooler than it was last week - Original Message - From: David C COLLYER dccoll...@ncable.net.au To: Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net; lace@arachne.com Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 5:38 AM Subject: Re: [lace] Miss Channer Dear Friends, Could I congratulate David on yet another excellent piece of lace. And may I also publicly acknowledge Julian's promptness and efficiency in posting all my photos. Miss Channer went to the framers this morning. I can now tell you that she took 158 pairs of bobbins plus 14 pairs for gimps. I used some very beautiful black silk which was sent to me some years ago by Eva from Spain (about equal to a Pipers 2/20) and a rayon for the gimp. I began the piece on Feb 12th and finished it on May 4th. There were some challenges, particularly around the half way mark when all the bobbins were on board. If I ever make her again I think I would make the sprays of tallies as raised tallies as on the original rather than as I have done them here. Other than that I'm fairly pleased with the result. She'll be mounted on a pale green board with bottle green surround and then a narrow wooden frame with some gilt highlights. David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.325 / Virus Database: 270.12.17/2095 - Release Date: 05/04/09 06:00:00 - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
David has just signed off arachne for 10 days or do to go walkabout in the Australian outback, which he does each year. Usually he comes back with photos of him sitting in a stream making lace. However he will not be around to receive the message you just sent and answer its questions. I recall him saying he had reduced the mat (but I don't recall by how much). If you look in the Arachne archives you should find his response to Chantilly / Bucks techniques. That was a fairly recent question, I think. http://www.mail-archive.com/lace@arachne.com Sue - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Miss Channer and Mr Collyer
On May 4, 2009, at 11:40, Julian Jefferson wrote: You will be glad to learn that David has completed the mat which can be viewed at: http://www.margorsson.com/Margorsson_Design/ Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html Super job, David! Funny... I had never been a fan of that mat before but now I like it very much. I guess it's true that black is the most elegant colour, suitable for every occasion :) -- Tamara P Duvallhttp://t-n-lace.net/ Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland) - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Miss Channer
Greetings arachnids from a wet May Bank Holiday Rochdale. You will be glad to learn that David has completed the mat which can be viewed at: http://www.margorsson.com/Margorsson_Design/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html He has promised to send pictures of the lace off the pillow. When he does I will update the website and post another message on arachne. Could I congratulate David on yet another excellent piece of lace. Julian. Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
All I have to say is Wow! David, did you sleep or eat at all in the past 3 months That's beautiful, absolutely beautiful. Beth McCasland in a very stormy New Orleans -Original Message- From: Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net Sent: May 4, 2009 10:40 AM To: lace@arachne.com Subject: [lace] Miss Channer Greetings arachnids from a wet May Bank Holiday Rochdale. You will be glad to learn that David has completed the mat which can be viewed at: http://www.margorsson.com/Margorsson_Design/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html He has promised to send pictures of the lace off the pillow. When he does I will update the website and post another message on arachne. Could I congratulate David on yet another excellent piece of lace. Julian. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
Congratulations - What a fantastic achievement. Thanks for keeping us appraised at the progress. And how does one sew in that many ends? Diane Z Lubec, Maine USA On May 4, 2009, at 11:40 AM, Julian Jefferson wrote: Greetings arachnids from a wet May Bank Holiday Rochdale. You will be glad to learn that David has completed the mat which can be viewed at: http://www.margorsson.com/Margorsson_Design/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html He has promised to send pictures of the lace off the pillow. When he does I will update the website and post another message on arachne. Could I congratulate David on yet another excellent piece of lace. Julian. Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
As though that were not enough, remember that David directed the World Premier of Thurlow Weed's Missa Solemnis in March!! That must have taken quite a bit of time away from his lacemaking!! Clay Beth McCasland wrote: All I have to say is Wow! David, did you sleep or eat at all in the past 3 months That's beautiful, absolutely beautiful. Beth McCasland in a very stormy New Orleans -Original Message- From: Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net Sent: May 4, 2009 10:40 AM To: lace@arachne.com Subject: [lace] Miss Channer Greetings arachnids from a wet May Bank Holiday Rochdale. You will be glad to learn that David has completed the mat which can be viewed at: http://www.margorsson.com/Margorsson_Design/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html He has promised to send pictures of the lace off the pillow. When he does I will update the website and post another message on arachne. Could I congratulate David on yet another excellent piece of lace. Julian. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
That's a fantastic achievement David - do you ever go to sleep? Brenda On 4 May 2009, at 16:40, Julian Jefferson wrote: You will be glad to learn that David has completed the mat which can be viewed at: http://www.margorsson.com/Margorsson_Design/ Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html Brenda in Allhallows, Kent http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
That is such a beautiful piece of lace, David. I can only imagine it made in white/ecru, but I think it has a different character being made in black. Looking forward to a photo of it off the pillow. Lesley in a very rainy Marple, Cheshire, UK and hoping the rain keeps the patients out of AE tonight while I'm at work - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
RE: [lace] Miss Channer
Congratulations David, another superb piece of lace made as usual at top speed. Sue M Harvey Norfolk UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
Dear David, Yet again I am totally blown away by the amazing skill that you have. Very nice job! Can't wait to see it off the pillow and 'up close'! Thanks for sharing! And Julian, thank you for doing this so we can all enjoy David's lovely work. bobbi On Mon, 4 May 2009 16:40:16 +0100 Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net writes: Greetings arachnids from a wet May Bank Holiday Rochdale. You will be glad to learn that David has completed the mat which can be viewed at: http://www.margorsson.com/Margorsson_Design/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chanti lly.html He has promised to send pictures of the lace off the pillow. When he does I will update the website and post another message on arachne. Could I congratulate David on yet another excellent piece of lace. Julian. ~*~ Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup. Prices, software, charts analysis. Click here to open your online FX trading account. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTIyVksWJXlTK3glAysmWmRir0ZTmdQilcffDjXsKqzBWA5TbgK9va/ - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
Dear Friends, Could I congratulate David on yet another excellent piece of lace. And may I also publicly acknowledge Julian's promptness and efficiency in posting all my photos. Miss Channer went to the framers this morning. I can now tell you that she took 158 pairs of bobbins plus 14 pairs for gimps. I used some very beautiful black silk which was sent to me some years ago by Eva from Spain (about equal to a Pipers 2/20) and a rayon for the gimp. I began the piece on Feb 12th and finished it on May 4th. There were some challenges, particularly around the half way mark when all the bobbins were on board. If I ever make her again I think I would make the sprays of tallies as raised tallies as on the original rather than as I have done them here. Other than that I'm fairly pleased with the result. She'll be mounted on a pale green board with bottle green surround and then a narrow wooden frame with some gilt highlights. David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
At 02:11 AM 5/05/2009, Beth McCasland wrote: All I have to say is Wow! David, did you sleep or eat at all in the past 3 months That's beautiful, absolutely beautiful. Thanks Beth - just the usual 4 hours a night LOL David Beth McCasland in a very stormy New Orleans - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer
At 02:21 AM 5/05/2009, Diane Zierold wrote: Congratulations - What a fantastic achievement. Thanks for keeping us appraised at the progress. And how does one sew in that many ends? You don't even attempt to - just cut them off. David Diane Z Lubec, Maine USA - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer goes Chantilly
David that is an astounding piece of lace. The other astounding thing is how do you manage your time so well - you have so much on the go. Lynn in the Gong bunnyrosena...@gmail.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer goes Chantilly
At 04:13 PM 16/04/2009, Lynn Scott wrote: David that is an astounding piece of lace. The other astounding thing is how do you manage your time so well - you have so much on the go. Lynn, lace is my relaxation therapy and I wouldn't start any day without it - at least 3 or 4 hours of it :) Then the rest is done while I watch night time TV David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Fw: [lace] Miss Channer goes Chantilly
What a lovely piece and I do like it in Black as well as White. Sue T Dorset UK David has sent an update on his progress which can be seen at http://www.margorsson.com/Margorsson_Design/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html Enjoy!!! Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Miss Channer goes Chantilly
David has sent an update on his progress which can be seen at http://www.margorsson.com/Margorsson_Design/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html Enjoy!!! Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer goes Chantilly
Julian, Thank you for sharing this with us. David, it is spectacular! I can't wait to see the finished piece! Keep up the great work! bobbi On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 01:59:04 +0100 Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net writes: David has sent an update on his progress which can be seen at http://www.margorsson.com/Margorsson_Design/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chanti lly.html Enjoy!!! Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net ~*~ Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup. Getting the lowest homeowner insurance rate? Click here to compare quotes from top companies. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTIoQF3aquXkCCgUMqon5SbyJsZHRZFEbY8QXRnHGRieAbRgF6tmaE/ - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer goes Chantilly
Dear Alex, right now I'm very snowed under preparing to conduct Thurlow Weed's world premiere next Saturday and frankly my mind is on that rather than lace making techniques. What I can say off the top of my head is that Chantilly is far more than just black and half-stitch. I have incorporated the carrying of bobbins along with the gimps; larger Toender-like holes; far fewer twists than in Bucks Point; I also have no qualms about using Elwyn Kenn's looper technique when possible. In short my Miss Channer is quite a mixture. However, the finished result will be far more readily classified as Chantilly than Bucks Point. Back to arranging brass parts David I am very curious as to why working Miss Channer's mat in black with half stitch for the 'clothwork' areas should be called 'going Chantilly'. Surely you are just making Bucks Point using black thread. Bucks Point was frequrntly made using black thread and then the 'clothwprk' areas were invariably worked in half stitch. Please will you explain which techniques you are using make it Chantilly instead of Bucks Point. Intrigued Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Miss Channer goes Chantilly
Dear David I am very curious as to why working Miss Channer's mat in black with half stitch for the 'clothwork' areas should be called 'going Chantilly'. Surely you are just making Bucks Point using black thread. Bucks Point was frequrntly made using black thread and then the 'clothwprk' areas were invariably worked in half stitch. Please will you explain which techniques you are using make it Chantilly instead of Bucks Point. Intrigued Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
Other thing used are little nylon bags full of holes, with a ribbon on the top that slips inside a plastic piece. When you press the button of the plastic piece, pulling the ribbon at the same time, the bag closes, (difficult to explain for me in English). These bags come into soap powder boxes for washer machines. They hold up to 40 continental bobbins, and it is easy to manipulate Carolina. Barcelona. Spain. Carolina de la Guardia http://www.geocities.com/carolgallego Witch Stitch Lace David in Ballarat d.collye...@aapt.net.au wrote: I have to say I've often wondering just how Continental bobbins are kept in any sort of order without any spangles to thread on things.- - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
RE: [lace] Miss Channer receives.../ideas for stacking bobbins
Has anyone mentioned knitting stitch holders yet? They're like very long safety pins (but not sharp) and you thread them through your spangles. They won't help a bit with unspangles bobbins, though ... http://www.jigsawknits.co.uk/mkstore/index.php?act=viewProdproductId=205 or http://www.theknittingparlour.co.uk/shop/p044-clover-jumbo-double-ended-stit ch-holder.html Margery. margerybu...@o2.co.uk in North Hertfordshire, UK -Original Message- From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of David in Ballarat Sent: Monday 09 March 2009 14:56 To: bev walker; Cher Cc: lace@arachne.com Subject: Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives.../ideas for stacking bobbins I watched a lacemaker working with hundreds of Midlands pairs, a big Beds. piece on a large cookie pillow, and she was able to pick up groups of bobbins, twist the bundle once so that the leader threads were all together, and left them back of the pillow. Now THAT'S an intriguing idea which I haven't tried yet. Must give it a go. But it certainly sounds feasible. My giant safety pins made by cutting a plastic coated coat hanger in half, hold around 32 bobbins each depending on the flamboyancy of the spangle. David - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
RE: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
I guess much depends on how exact you want your bobbins to stay in order, or don't mind to untwist a few. On the details of the congne page you see how they don't mind too much. I saw them working this way. They just touch the bobbins looking at their work to see which thread moves and thus know which bobbin to pick out of the pile. http://www.dentellieres.com/Musee/Cogne/cogne2.htm On this page you see how the ground consists of tctctc in stead of tc-pin-tc. Clever improvement to avoid timeconsuming placing of pins. http://www.dentellieres.com/Musee/Cogne/cogne1-det3.htm The last tc they throw their bobbins, you see the hand moving on the picture linked below. Though it does not catch a flying bobbin, the shot is taken quite clever. http://www.dentellieres.com/Musee/Cogne/cogne2-det3.htm I didn't wait to see how they started a new row, my italian and their french/english/german/dutch was too bad to ask. Now that I'm writing it down, on a flat pillow you would have to shift the whole pile from one side to the other. But with their touchy method you just pick the apropriate bobbins under the pile. Now I understand the large bulbs are not only better for throwing, but also for finding the bobbins by their bottoms. I guess this method does not allow hundreths of bobbins. For flanders lace someone suggested to make smal plaits to fix the motives when finishing another part. You would have to undo that when continuing. Why bother a few more unintended twist by piling when you have to undo a little anyhow? That makes the method below a little easier. Jo My favorite system (which I have not come even *close* to mastering...) is when those huge 12 pins are used to scoop up 6 - 8 bobbins at a time and stack them vertically in front of another set... Just an amazing sight to see... - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
http://www.dentellieres.com/Musee/Cogne/cogne2.htm And if you look at the lace on the bolster pillow, they have no pricking and are just working freehand torchon lace with pins only on the outside edge, with impressive tension! Sue Babbs - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
Dear Clay, Not everyone works with spangled bobbins. I have to say, those spangles come in handy for keeping the bobbins in order, but I rarely use this kind of bobbin. Continental bobbins present their own set of challenges. My favorite system (which I have not come even *close* to mastering...) is when those huge 12 pins are used to scoop up 6 - 8 bobbins at a time and stack them vertically in front of another set... Just an amazing sight to see... I have to say I've often wondering just how Continental bobbins are kept in any sort of order without any spangles to thread on things. Since you're using 12 pins, you might even consider those 1mm (or less) metal lace knitting needles. They are what I use to support my stacks of bobbins. However, I wouldn't want too many 1mm holes in a styrene based pillow David - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives.../ideas for stacking bobbins
I watched a lacemaker working with hundreds of Midlands pairs, a big Beds. piece on a large cookie pillow, and she was able to pick up groups of bobbins, twist the bundle once so that the leader threads were all together, and left them back of the pillow. Now THAT'S an intriguing idea which I haven't tried yet. Must give it a go. But it certainly sounds feasible. My giant safety pins made by cutting a plastic coated coat hanger in half, hold around 32 bobbins each depending on the flamboyancy of the spangle. David - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
David in Ballarat d.collye...@aapt.net.au wrote: I have to say I've often wondering just how Continental bobbins are kept in any sort of order without any spangles to thread on things.- Other things used with continentals are: knitted/crocheted strips with holes to poke the bobbin bottoms through ribbon wrapped around one bobbin, then twisted between each additional bobbin and tied tongue depressers with elastic stretched from one end to the other over the bobbins snap tape (used for baby clothes) where bobbins slide between snaps wood U with pin in the bottom, to scoop up bobbins at their waists and pin upright wood U with pinholes on the ends, to scoop up bobbins and store horizontally, pinned in place Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA robinl...@socal.rr.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
Dear Margot, I've tried that and it didn't work for me. What I've made are like giant safety pins - 2 from each plastic coated coat hanger cut in half. Each of these will hold about 32 bobbins, but we are talking close to 400 bobbins here. I did try that method where I threaded a hundred or so onto one long piece of electric wire, but they didn't come off easily enough. It'll get easier once I start to throw some out permanently. Thanks though David Here's a hint to help manage the bobbins. Instead of using knitting stitch holders, I use extra long hat pins. It's very easy to slide one through the spangles, then raise the hat pin to a vertical position, and stick in the pillow. You can 'store' many more bobbins in less space and it's easy to move the hat pins around. I'm using some antique hat pins - one of my many excuses for haunting flea markets - and many that I've made myself using very fine, sharply pointed knitting needles with beads glued on one end. They're pretty too! Margot Walker in Halifax on the east coast of Canada Visit the Seaspray Guild of Lacemakers web site: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/quinbot - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
RE: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
For working with so many bobbins in one pattern I was just thinking if any of you have used a cloth book, for holding your many bobbins. The bigger the cloth book the more it holds. I been thinking about putting a bottom to each page, so all I have to do is lay them in(in order) close the page and do the same for each page, stacking each cloth book onto each other. Seems to me that this would work, what do you think? Cher in Papillion -Original Message- From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of David in Ballarat Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 11:40 AM To: Margot Walker; ARACHNE Subject: Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal Dear Margot, I've tried that and it didn't work for me. What I've made are like giant safety pins - 2 from each plastic coated coat hanger cut in half. Each of these will hold about 32 bobbins, but we are talking close to 400 bobbins here. I did try that method where I threaded a hundred or so onto one long piece of electric wire, but they didn't come off easily enough. It'll get easier once I start to throw some out permanently. Thanks though David - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
I've been told that one of the things that separates *really* good lacemakers from *merely* good lacemakers is their ability to manage huge numbers of bobbins. And to a small extent, this can't be learned from a book or from a set of rules... every piece which requires hundreds of bobbins has its own requirements for approaching the pattern, and it is the willingness and the wits of the lacemaker to work out their system which makes the difference. I've enjoyed seeing what people have written about over the years... Not everyone works with spangled bobbins. I have to say, those spangles come in handy for keeping the bobbins in order, but I rarely use this kind of bobbin. Continental bobbins present their own set of challenges. My favorite system (which I have not come even *close* to mastering...) is when those huge 12 pins are used to scoop up 6 - 8 bobbins at a time and stack them vertically in front of another set... Just an amazing sight to see... Clay David in Ballarat wrote: Dear Margot, I've tried that and it didn't work for me. What I've made are like giant safety pins - 2 from each plastic coated coat hanger cut in half. Each of these will hold about 32 bobbins, but we are talking close to 400 bobbins here. I did try that method where I threaded a hundred or so onto one long piece of electric wire, but they didn't come off easily enough. It'll get easier once I start to throw some out permanently. Thanks though David Here's a hint to help manage the bobbins. Instead of using knitting stitch holders, I use extra long hat pins. It's very easy to slide one through the spangles, then raise the hat pin to a vertical position, and stick in the pillow. You can 'store' many more bobbins in less space and it's easy to move the hat pins around. I'm using some antique hat pins - one of my many excuses for haunting flea markets - and many that I've made myself using very fine, sharply pointed knitting needles with beads glued on one end. They're pretty too! Margot Walker in Halifax on the east coast of Canada Visit the Seaspray Guild of Lacemakers web site: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/quinbot - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives.../ideas for stacking bobbins
This is a good idea for a given amount of a lot of bobbins. The pattern I was working on with 140 continental pairs, I shifted groups out of the way in layers, first placed a group on a stick (the stick with an elastic threaded end to end), then the stick on a work cloth, and stacked them accordingly. They can be stacked stick on stick too, but that becomes clumsy with several layers. Same with the 'pages' idea, or even with my work cloths, the stacking becomes bulky for the larger numbers of bobbins. Try it and see. It could work for you. I watched a lacemaker working with hundreds of Midlands pairs, a big Beds. piece on a large cookie pillow, and she was able to pick up groups of bobbins, twist the bundle once so that the leader threads were all together, and left them back of the pillow. There was this group of groups, literally, lying a'back of the pillow; each loose bundle was then brought into use as needed with a quick untwist to allow the leader threads to separate, and only a bit of sorting to get them where they were supposed to be. Mastery of the bobbins! On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Cher jp...@cox.net wrote: For working with so many bobbins in one pattern I was just thinking if any of you have used a cloth book, for holding your many bobbins. The bigger the cloth book the more it holds. I been thinking about putting a bottom to each page, so all I have to do is lay them in(in order) close the page and do the same for each page, stacking each cloth book onto each other. Seems to me that this would work, what do you think? Cher in Papillion - -- Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
On 8 Mar 2009, at 16:04, Clay Blackwell wrote: My favorite system (which I have not come even *close* to mastering...) is when those huge 12 pins are used to scoop up 6 - 8 bobbins at a time and stack them vertically in front of another set... That's what gave me the idea of using hat pins with spangled bobbins. I was making a Beds pattern with 350 bobbins. I tried Clay's favourite system but it didn't seem to work with the spangles. So I tried using hat pins and loved it - and I can fit 8 - 12 pairs on a pin. Margot Walker in Halifax on the east coast of Canada Visit the Seaspray Guild of Lacemakers web site: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/quinbot - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
David in Ballarat d.collye...@aapt.net.au wrote: I've tried that and it didn't work for me. I did try that method where I threaded a hundred or so onto one long piece of electric wire, but they didn't come off easily enough. -- An option I find useful with spangled bobbins is a short (maybe 6/15cm) cord with a loop on one end. Lia gave us these in a class--it was made from chain stitch, with the last stitch going into a chain several back from the hook. Thread the cord through one spangle and pull the end through the loop. This anchors the cord to one bobbin. Then you can gather neighboring bobbins by threading the cord through their spangles. The cords are short enough to make manageable units. You can grab a unit by the free end and move it anywhere, stack it on top of other units, etc. A pin through the free end is all it takes to secure things, so they pile up better than hard holders. Robin Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA robinl...@socal.rr.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
Dear Friends, Firstly I would personally like to thank Julian for the wonderful job he is doing maintaining that website whereon he posts my photos. I am currently at about the half way mark with Miss Channer and finding the going quite tough. Not the stitches themselves - the tediousness comes in managing the sheer number of bobbins, which are all indeed necessary. I now have the maximum amount on board (will count them at the end) and sometimes can only work a couple of passes before I have to unload a whole lot in order to progress. Despite all that, I am really pleased with the effect that is appearing from behind the pins. In the meantime, I have a Proposal re Miss Channer, (Or should that be for)? Wouldn't it be great if all those here who have made this piece could send a photo of it to Julian - or indeed friends of those here. Just so we could see a whole page of the various results of Miss Channer's Mat. I'm quite sure that each would have it's own unique characteristics and it would be fascinating to compare them all. Let's face it there probably are all that many around Just a thought David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
On 7 Mar 2009, at 07:51, David in Ballarat wrote: I am currently at about the half way mark with Miss Channer and finding the going quite tough. Not the stitches themselves - the tediousness comes in managing the sheer number of bobbins, which are all indeed necessary. I now have the maximum amount on board (will count them at the end) and sometimes can only work a couple of passes before I have to unload a whole lot in order to progress. Despite all that, I am really pleased with the effect that is appearing from behind the pins. Here's a hint to help manage the bobbins. Instead of using knitting stitch holders, I use extra long hat pins. It's very easy to slide one through the spangles, then raise the hat pin to a vertical position, and stick in the pillow. You can 'store' many more bobbins in less space and it's easy to move the hat pins around. I'm using some antique hat pins - one of my many excuses for haunting flea markets - and many that I've made myself using very fine, sharply pointed knitting needles with beads glued on one end. They're pretty too! Margot Walker in Halifax on the east coast of Canada Visit the Seaspray Guild of Lacemakers web site: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/quinbot - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
RE: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
Sounds like a great idea David, so come on all you folk who have been brave enough to tackle it lets see how much variation in techniques have been achieved. Sue M Harvey Norfolk UK Where I have been to our laceday today and bought some absolutely lovely imitation silk threads in beautiful colours from De Haviland Embroidery No interest in company just a happy buyer - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
RE: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal
I agree with Sue. The threads are beautifull. So soft and the colours are out of this world. You`ve guessed it I bought some as well. Like Sue I`m nothing to do with the company. Daphne Martin Norfolk Uk From: 2harv...@tiscali.co.uk To: d.collye...@aapt.net.au; lace@arachne.com Subject: RE: [lace] Miss Channer receives a Proposal Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 21:46:25 + Sounds like a great idea David, so come on all you folk who have been brave enough to tackle it lets see how much variation in techniques have been achieved. Sue M Harvey Norfolk UK Where I have been to our laceday today and bought some absolutely lovely imitation silk threads in beautiful colours from De Haviland Embroidery No interest in company just a happy buyer - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com _ View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place Learn more! - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Miss Channer update
You can see how David is getting on with the mat: http://www.margorsson.com/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html Thanks Julian Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Miss Channer goes Chantilly
Following on from David's piece of Tønder I have now uploaded pictures of his latest project: Miss Channer's Mat goes Chantilly. http://www.margorsson.com/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html You may also be interested to know that on the Men n' Lace pages I have included information about a family of lacemakers - a husband wife and three sons from Estonia: Priit Halberg: http://www.margorsson.com/Priit_Halberg.html Thanks Julian Julian Jefferson ja.jeffer...@virgin.net - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Miss Channer goes Chantilly
Another incredible piece of lace work! Thanks Julian for putting the pictures where we can all see them. And congratulations to David on finishing his Tonder piece (I'm green with envy at the skill and patience it must have taken) Beth in Cheshire, NW England Julian wrote: Following on from David's piece of Tønder I have now uploaded pictures of his latest project: Miss Channer's Mat goes Chantilly. http://www.margorsson.com/Miss_Channers_Mat_goes_Chantilly.html You may also be interested to know that on the Men n' Lace pages I have included information about a family of lacemakers - a husband wife and three sons from Estonia: Priit Halberg: http://www.margorsson.com/Priit_Halberg.html Thanks Julian - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Miss Channer
I have heard of a few items disappearing at lace days, - and I think it is dreadful that another lacemaker would do such a thing. When I am demonstrating, I have lace on display - but aways pinned up on a display board behind me. I was doing kit piece at a Stitches and Craft show many years ago - and the working sheet was taken by someone, - so I had to ask for another one from the providers of the kit, who were on another stand! they were not impressed - and nor was I! What good would it have been to anyone? So now I Always have everything pinned down - working diagrams in a plastic sleeve, and pinned to the tablecloth, etc. I have a small Needlelace pillow in a basket stand on the table, and the pillow is tied to the basket, and the basket is tied to a table leg with some fishing line, so it cannot be taken away!! Whenever I leave my pillow (demonstrations and at Lace days) I slip a knitters stitch-holder through the spangles of All the bobbins, and cover them with the cover cloth - just leaving the pins, and completed lace open for people to see if they wish. I hate being like this, - but better careful than sorry. It is a sad state of affairs, isn't it? What has the world come to? Regards from Liz in Melbourne [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for home users. SPAMfighter has removed 250 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Miss Channer
Dear Diana, Thank you for sharing your visit with the family of Miss Channer. You say I was shown a family photograph album, including a picture of Catherine, aged 16, taken when she was at school in Switzerland Do you know what school she attended? I am wondering if it was the one that Gertrude Whiting attended where she learned to make lace. I believe it was called, the Institut Professional Neuchatelois de Dentelles. I know of another lace maker and teacher, who taught here in New York, who also attended this school and am beginning to want to know more about it. Devon **Pt...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty000514) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Miss Channer
As the list is quiet at the moment I thought I would tell you what an enjoyable time I had yesterday. I had three guests for the day, one being Vera, aged 91, the niece of Catherine C. Channer, she was accompanied by her son and his partner. Vera is the daughter of Frances Channer, younger sister of Catherine, she was an expert embroiderer, I believe there is at least one item of her work in Luton Museum. When Vera was taken recently to see her mothers work she burst into tears much to the consternation of museum staff. I was able to show them data and ephemera I have gathered on Miss Channer and in exchange I was shown a family photograph album, including a picture of Catherine, aged 16, taken when she was at school in Switzerland. Also pictures of her parents and siblings, none of which I had seen before. Reverend Channer held the living at Desborough, Northamptonshire for several years before the family moved to Ravensthorpe. Margaret, the youngest child was born at Desborough - a later photograph of her shows a stunningly pretty young woman. As we live just a couple of miles from Desborough (where I was born) we were able to take our guests to see the Church and Vicarage. We had arranged for the church to be opened especially for them - Vera's son was even able to climb the tower and help wind the clock. After returning home for a well needed cupper we said our goodbyes. I know Vera would not agree with me but I think that had Miss Channer lived to be 91 years she would probably have looked much like her niece! Diana in Northants - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues (Soapbox)
typicall lacers - I could make that ... if I had all the bobbins grin Liz In a message dated 28/08/2003 18:10:18 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Subj: Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues (Soapbox) Date: 28/08/2003 18:10:18 GMT Daylight Time From: A HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/A To: A HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/A CC: A HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/A Sent from the Internet Yes, if you own something it is your right what you do with it. Also a lot of the people on this soap box have never seen the mat, second it is quite boring, third they couldn't do it and finally the only thing that excites people is the number of bobbins! KEEP LACING, VIVIENNE, BIGGINS Regards Liz Beecher - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues
Just another thought - I bought a software program from a Jewish company and on the disk it had the following caveat: You make make a copy of this software for personal back up purposes. Illegal copying of this software is against US and GOD's laws I felt that I had been truely warned. You are right - it is NOT morally right Liz In a message dated 27/08/2003 22:01:05 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Subj: Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues Date: 27/08/2003 22:01:05 GMT Standard Time From: A HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/A To: A HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/A, A HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/A Sent from the Internet Any thoughts of stealing copies of the mat are dreadful. However annoying it may be not being able to get a copy even copying and giving it to your friend is illegal. Okay perhaps I feel really strongly about it because Biggins design and produce patterns which are blatantly copied but it is not morally right. KEEP LACING, VIVIENNE, BIGGINS - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues
Vivienne and all the spiders, Apologies for not joining this thread earlier but I've been making chutney - I'm sure you can all smell it from here. Here you have hit the nail on the head. For some reason, we lace makers think that to own more patterns than we could make in a life time is a really good idea. Apparantly normal women who would never break the law think nothing of photocopying a pattern and swopping it with a friend. Why? I think that the main reasons and our thinking are as follows: a) Why should I buy a book for £20 or $35 dollars when I only want one pattern. b) But it's out of print and I just HAVE to have that pattern. c) It doesn't harm anyone. d) Everyone else does it. But it does harm someone - the person who designed it, the person who published it and all of us who want it reprinted but can't get it done because apparantly there is no call for it because we've all photocopied it. OK, so when I buy a pattern I always take a copy and prick from that - why? Because then I don't mess up my original from which I work. We wouldn't prick through a page in a book so I wouldn't prick through a single sheet pattern I've bought. That's ok. Legally, I'm allowed to do this as I am doing it for my personal use in order to make the lace so long as I either keep the copy or destroy it ie I don't give it to anyone. However, I am on sticky ground if I give the the single sheet pattern or the pricking to someone else to work from. Some lace designers (but certainly not all) place the caveat on their work that you may give the pricking to a friend to work from but when it falls to pieces they cannot make another pricking. Dodgy. I know that the traditional way to make a pricking was to prick it from another pricking and then true it up (if required) and we are all guilty of at sometime saying to someone -hey give me a copy of that pricking. I've done it (once - I admit it but I claim ignorance and have never done it since) and I've been asked on many an occasion when demonstrating - Oh, I love that - please give me a copy - No bugger off and buy it you cheapskate - that should be our answer but we smile, pleased that someone loved the piece we were making and say - Of course, give me your name and address. Sometimes, I feel like shouting at people - hey it's only 65p including postage to buy it - are you that poor? Or are we saying that we want the pattern at any cost so long as it is nothing. I want this lace pattern and I am going to make it - it is wonderful, such a pretty thing but of course it isn't worth me paying any money for - well, actually I have paid at least 4p for a photocopy - hey if it's only A4 I can scan it on my pc and not pay anything - yippee. Pay for them you cheapskates - if it's beautiful it must be worth the money or go buy something else. Am I the only person in the world who has books of patterns and files of A4 / A3 patterns that I could never make in one life time simply because they are beautiful patterns that I can look at and if I want to, make? There must be more people out there like me ... aren't there ... now I'm worried. So, here's my suggestion - be good bunnies (or frogs if you want) and a) BUY the pattern because it encourages the designers to design more of them. b) Check if it is in copyright before you copy it - if you can't buy it because it is out of print then some publishers are willing for you to send a royalty to them to pass onto the designer if they are still alive or to their estate - IT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD - when I wanted to copy something (non lace) for teaching in my day job, I contacted the copyright owner who allowed me to do so so long as I gave him credit when I used it and made a donation to charity - mind you he is a really wonderful guy. c) Suggest to the publisher that they pre-sell a piece that they want to republish - say if they get 1/2 to 2/3 of the patterns presold (perhaps 1/2 or all the cost up front and the rest when it's done) which would raise the money to reprint. d) when all else fails, GO MAKE SOMETHING ELSE - it's not the end of the world. My love to you all - I'm off to label my chutney Liz In a message dated 27/08/2003 22:01:05 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Subj: Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues Date: 27/08/2003 22:01:05 GMT Standard Time From: A HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/A To: A HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/A, A HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/A Sent from the Internet Any thoughts of stealing copies of the mat are dreadful. However annoying it may be not being able to get a copy even copying and giving it to your friend is illegal. Okay perhaps I feel really strongly about it because Biggins design and produce patterns which are blatantly copied but it is not morally right. KEEP LACING, VIVIENNE, BIGGINS - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues
As, I understand it, the principle behind copyright law is to encourage creativity by ensuring that those who invest effort in a pattern or other intellectual property may profit from it. Publishers who take the risk in publishing the work are also deserving of the right to profit. I believe whole heartedly in this principle. I pay top dollar for lace books with the hope that the publisher will continue to print them and the creator will continue to create them. It breaks my heart when I hear a gifted lace person regret ever having spent the time writing a book, and this happens quite often. I get a little confused though when the fact pattern gets as convoluted and distorted as the Channer Mat problem. Ruth Bean constantly asserts that there is no profit to be made from this pattern. I have no doubt they are correct. It is rare that you hear that anyone has made any money publishing a lace book. The market is extremely small. They already published it once, thus saturating the market. It is entirely doubtful that they would ever publish it again. I am not sure what the minimum print run is that can be profitable. I am sure it is not 100. It is probably not 1000. If Ruth Bean keeps a list of everyone who wants the pattern with the idea of publishing when it gets to 1000, I think that it will take 20 years and the people who put their names on the list first will be dead, so there will still not be a thousand people who want the pattern even then. There are roughly 7,000 lacemakers in the English speaking world. Probably 500 have the pattern. Probably 6,400 don't want it. I don't blame Ruth Bean for not wanting to take a financial bath by republishing Channer's Mat. So, if there is no profit in the pattern, hypothetically, copying it doesn't sound like it is hurting them. If you were, hypothetically, to say the profit on each pattern was $10 and they suffer a $10 loss if you photocopy the pattern, they could sue you for $10 according to Tom. I even asked them if they would allow people to photocopy the pattern and send them the amount that they would consider the profit, ie. $10 and they said no. It is too much trouble for them to accept the individual $10 sums. This is entirely understandable. Maybe someone should offer to handle the paper work of clearing the checks from honor payments so they could receive it in a yearly lump sum which would be cheaper for them to process. Meanwhile, of course, the pattern is selling on e-bay and the second hand market. When these sell the dealers profit, extraordinarily. No money is kicked back to Ruth Bean or Channer, or Bury. Theoretically people could sell one copy to each other, copy for their own use, sell to another. Personally, I would rather see the creators or the publishers profit in order to encourage creativity and the publication of more lace patterns. I appreciate the role that used book sellers play and that they work quite hard. However, it would make more sense in terms of accomplishing the goals of the copyright law to photocopy the pattern and use the $70 you would pay on e-bay for the pattern to take the president of Ruth Bean, Bury and the Channer heirs out to dinner as a special thank you for creating and publishing it originally. Morally, I find the whole thing quite confusing. Mind you, I don't even want a copy. My skills aren't up to it and I don't think it is all that pretty. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Miss Channer and Copyright
I knew when I sent the message earlier today that a few replies would be posted. All of the copyright information you ever wanted to know is on the Internet. First, international copyright legislation is for the most part governed by the Berne Convention, which you will find at: http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/overview.html Now, let's take a look at what the Berne people have to say: First of all, regarding which laws apply to the work, the Berne Convention (Section 5) says : ... the extent of protection, as well as the means of redress afforded to the author to protect his rights, shall be governed exclusively by the laws of the country where protection is claimed. That means that it doesn't matter how very British Miss Channer and her mat were, if the mat is copied in Canada, then Canadian copyright laws apply when considering whether or not an infraction has been committed. US laws apply in the US, and so on and so on. This matter is reinforced in other Sections of the convention in even plainer language. Now, how long is the duration? Under the Berne Convention (Section 7), The term of protection granted by this Convention shall be the life of the author and fifty years after his death. The same section goes on to explain that (1) countries do have the right to decided on a longer time or even a shorter time, but In any case, the term shall be governed by the legislation of the country where protection is claimed; however, unless the legislation of that country otherwise provides, the term shall not exceed the term fixed in the country of origin of the work. For US law, I took a look at http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/duration.html: In the United States, anything published before 1923 has no copyright whatsoever; it doesn't matter when the author/creator died. For after 1923 the current copyright law is if a work was published between 1923 to 1963, the copyright owner was required to have applied for a renewal term with the Copyright office. If they did not, the copyright expired and the work entered into the public domain. If they did apply for renewal, these works will have a 95 year copyright term and hence will enter into the public domain no sooner that 2018 (95 years from 1923). If the work was published between 1964 to 1977, there is no need to file for a renewal, and these works will automatically have a 95 year term. So, what does this mean for us and our lace patterns? Well, if you live in the States, you can copy and republish and do whatever you want with anything that was published before 1923. After that date and before 1963 it becomes a bit dicier because you have to figure out whether or not the copyright was renewed. Personally, I bet it wasn't, but that's just me. Now, what was protected? If Ruth Bean had someone copy an old pattern and copyrighted it, the more power to her. However, she just has copyright on the copy *she* made, not on Miss Channer's original. No one can ever have a copyright again on something whose copyright expires. So, as I said in my original posting, if you want to make your own copy based on your own rendering of a pre-1923 photo from a book published before 1923, and you live in the States, go ahead. Adele North Vancouver, BC (west coast of Canada) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues
From: Bev Walker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I prefer to make my original designs available through lace magazines, for the price of buying the magazine. OK, we've been exploring copyright law through the hypothetical example of Miss Channer's mat. And Vivienne, I do believe most of the messages were hypothetical, using the mat as an example--not actually advocating violating Ruth Bean's copyright to produce the mat's pricking. Bev brings up something I've wondered about. If I buy the magazine with her design in it, would it violate copyright if I let my friend(s) copy her pattern? Are they supposed to buy their own copies of the magazine in order to do a pattern from it? What if the magazine is not available, either because it requires a subscription/membership for a whole year (too late, when you see a pattern in the current issue) or it's an old issue? This can actually get pretty complicated when one is dealing with lace organizations' magazines. Some magazines hold the copyright for their contents so, like books, there's a demonstrable loss from unsold copies. However, don't most of the lace orgs leave the copyright with the designer? The designer may get some sort of payment (like copies of the issue, or a bobbin), but gets no royalties for the *number* of copies of the magazine sold. When IOLI sells off extra back issues, the designers aren't getting any extra payment, so the designers aren't losing any income when I reproduce patterns in old copies. The IOLI may claim lost membership (why pay those pesky dues if Robin will let me copy patterns from her old issues?), but they don't hold the copyright on the patterns being copied. So if the copyright holder can't lose income, is it a copyright violation? If anyone's worried, I *do* buy magazines (or join organizations) in order to have my own copy of patterns, and I *don't* give away copies from my magazines. I've just wondered. Robin P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Miss Channer/calculation of loss
Some years ago at a lace convention a lawyer addressed us on the subject of copyright. It was an amusing presentation because the orientation of the talk was the supposition that members of the audience may have designed something that they would like to protect and how to do that. However, all the questions were about how far you could go in publishing other people's work before you had gone too far. One questioner was absolutely certain that you could publish another person's pattern, without payment, a long as you mentioned the other person's name as the originator of the pattern. Although the answer was, only if that person has agreed to it, the questioner would not accept this answer. Another question was, If I buy the pattern, can I make a copy for a friend? The answer was, if I recall correctly, only if it does not damage the person who owns the copyright. The lawyer said, You might consider everyone in this room to be your friend, but if you gave a copy of a pattern from a book to everyone in this room, it would materially damage the sale of the book it came from, because the market is so small. I had the interesting experience of writing an article for the IOL Bulletin and later receiving a request to translate it into German for publication in a German Lace Mag. I had no idea what the legal status of this request was. I had no objection to it being republished. In fact, I was flattered. I asked the IOL and they had no idea whether their permission was required, but said they had no objection. My personal take on this is that I own the copyright, because I wrote it, and the IOL printed it with my permission. Now the German magazine is printing the translation with my permission. I may have gotten an extra copy of the issue, but the IOL certainly didn't buy it from me. Perhaps the IOL is missing a bet. It should have Tom write a regular feature called Copyright Corner where he deals with hypotheticals such as the Channer Mat Paradox. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues (Soapbox)
A couple of things... the first is that the pricking published by Ruth Bean is not the original but an adaptation by Anne Buck of the original. Perhaps she can have some influence on the possibility of republishing the pricking? Does anyone know when Ruth Bean Publishers started in business? If it was after 1949, there may be some question as to their right to hold a copyright that legally belongs to the heirs of Miss Channer until the year 2019. Second, this is a sterling example of the flaw in the ridiculous length of copyright duration. Catherine Channer died in 1949 and Ruth Bean Publications is sitting on her work, making it unavailable to those Miss Channer devoted her time and talents to during her lifetime! Those of us who are designing need to consider what will happen to our own work after we are no longer around to control it. A greedy (or uncaring) publisher or uncaring (or hateful) relative could bury our work in much the same way as Miss Channer's work is being buried... for nearly 3/4 of a century after we die, or longer if a corporation can get hold of the copyright! I appreciate Vivienne and other's wish to make a fair return on their work and I would never advocate copying a *living* author's work, but for heaven's sake do you really want your *legacy* consigned to obscurity at the whim of someone else? That is really what is being discussed here. Consider Sr. Judith who is well over 80 years old... she has designed nearly every scrap of Withof on the planet. What will happen to her work when she passes (God willing she lives in health many more years)? Will Withof simply disappear with her? Pattern Book 7 is already rare as hen's teeth and not being printed, and IMHO it contains some of her best work. I don't have a copy and it's unlikely I'll ever be able to get one from bookfinder.com or ebay at any price. Lacemakers 50 - 70 years from now certainly won't. Realizing that there is little we can do against the battalions of lawyers and piles of bucks corporations like Disney use to drive the copyright laws further and further out of the realm of common sense, it is still a travesty that an important work like Miss Channer's Mat will be allowed to languish for so long. When Miss Channer died, what was the expected length of her copyright and what has it ended up as years later? Even if she had thought about this at all, how could she know what would happen? Do *we* even know where this will end? Since the copyright on Mickey Mouse hasn't expired yet the length of time could be extended many more times. With the advent of DVD-based movies and music, there will be even more pressure to extend the duration copyrights. Sorry to go on so, but this is one of my soapboxes. (For non-Americans, the term soapbox comes from a time when people would stand on a soapbox (or other such wooden box) in a public place and cry out their personal message to the world.) Marcie - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Miss Channer/do the right thing
Consider the following dark scenario. The president of Ruth Bean finds that the e-mail campaigns to republish Channer are now coming quarterly, rather than yearly. The increasingly angry tone of these campaigns suggests that some people who would not engage in illicit photocopying might engage in murder. The added stress of providing refreshments for delegations of Indian copyright lawyers who like spicy teas and must obey difficult to understand dietary laws causes the president to lose his or her mind and actually republish Channer's Mat. Ten thousand dollars is spent producing 2,000 copies to be sold at $10 a piece. Of the hundred people who said they wanted the pattern reproduced, 50 of them decide that $10 is too high. Ruth Bean makes $250 on the 50 sold and loses $9,750. Ruth Bean declares bankrutpcy and goes out of business. The wee mites of the employees go hungry. I certainly wouldn't want it on my conscience. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues (Soapbox)
Do you know the date of the copyright and whether it was copyrighted by Bean or Buck. Is Buck dead? As to morality? Is it moral to sit on something that you cannot profit from and keep it from the rest of the world just because you have a *legal* right to do so? Tom Andrews - Original Message - From: Panza, Robin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Marcie Greer' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arachne (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 11:05 AM Subject: RE: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues (Soapbox) From: Marcie Greer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Second, this is a sterling example of the flaw in the ridiculous length of copyright duration. Catherine Channer died in 1949 and Ruth Bean Publications is sitting on her work, making it unavailable to those Miss Channer devoted her time and talents to during her lifetime! It's my understanding that Miss Channer's mat, or a photograph of it, are all that survived her death--NOT a pricking. Anne Buck developed a pattern from a photograph of the mat, Bean published Buck's pricking and a picture of Buck's piece--NOT the original mat. I don't know if Bean commissioned the piece or the designer offered it to Bean. I also don't know how much change there was from the original mat and the developed design, but we assume Bean was legal in all this. Either the mat was changed enough, or it was late enough, to not violate Channer's estate's copyright. The copyright we are in danger of infringing is Bean's/Buck's pricking. As I understand it, if someone got a photo of the original mat and developed their own pricking, that would be legal. If they reproduced Bean's/Buck's pricking, they would be in violation of Bean's copyright. Robin P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues (Soapbox)
Yes, if you own something it is your right what you do with it. Also a lot of the people on this soap box have never seen the mat, second it is quite boring, third they couldn't do it and finally the only thing that excites people is the number of bobbins! KEEP LACING, VIVIENNE, BIGGINS - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/jurisdictional issues
Sorry to intrude, Ladies, but as an attorney, I would like to remind you that law is nothing unless it can be enforced. Enforcement through the courts is a very expensive proposition. Copyright litigation can easily go into the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. So if the infraction is not costing enough to warrant the enforcement the matter is non Justiciable on an economic basis. As to collecting attorney's fees and costs from the one committing the infraction? You cannot get blood from a turnip, and I don't know too many well heeled lace makers. I hope that puts a different face on the question. Tom Andrews - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues
Hi Tom, and Devon, and other lacemakers! To take this question in a slightly different direction, how much would the original design have to be changed in order to call it an original design? If a creative lacemaker used the mat as inspiration and made a design that looked a great deal like the mat - but was not an exact duplication - would that be a violation of copyright? Clay - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues So, Tom, if someone were, hypothetically speaking, not that I am advocating it, to very quietly and in a non-public place, photocopy the pattern and give it to her friend, how would the damages be reckoned? Ruth Bean repeatedly goes on record as saying that it is not worth reprinting. However, they did respond with a reminder that they own the copyright at one point when someone offered on-line to photocopy it for another person. I don't think anyone is actually proposing to run off as many as a hundred copies, and if they did, they would lose their shirts on the enterprise, much as Ruth Bean, apparently would if they did it. It is the person who reproduces the pattern that suffers economic loss in this scenario, so how do you calculate damages? It would be an interesting question for a law school exam. It seems to me that every year Ruth Bean is deluged with e-mails from people pleading to have them reprint this pattern. This kind of annoyance is probably unknown for The Idiot's Guide to Safe Cracking, for instance, but the lacemakers are a fanatically law abiding group. Devon who never advocates law-breaking. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues
Any thoughts of stealing copies of the mat are dreadful. However annoying it may be not being able to get a copy even copying and giving it to your friend is illegal. Okay perhaps I feel really strongly about it because Biggins design and produce patterns which are blatantly copied but it is not morally right. KEEP LACING, VIVIENNE, BIGGINS - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues
If perchance, a hypothetical lacer made a copy of Miss Channer's Mat and gave it to a friend, and if Ruth Bean had someway of knowing about such a private transaction, and if she could find a lawyer to take the case; she would be entitled to the profit she would have made had she sold the recipient lacer the pricking. Hardly worth going after, is it? Now, maybe some of our British friends could enlighten me on British copyright law, but in the States a copyright is only good for fifty years after the death of person who copyrighted it. Now as memory serves me, copyrights were recently brought up in Congress and extended in order to put money in the coffers of Walt Disney, Inc. whose copyrights on his troop of characters were about to expire. I wonder if under British copyright law the copyright on a hundred plus year old mat has not expired. Besides, I wouldn't want one. I would need at least eight for a complete place setting. Anyone game? Tom Andrews - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues So, Tom, if someone were, hypothetically speaking, not that I am advocating it, to very quietly and in a non-public place, photocopy the pattern and give it to her friend, how would the damages be reckoned? Ruth Bean repeatedly goes on record as saying that it is not worth reprinting. However, they did respond with a reminder that they own the copyright at one point when someone offered on-line to photocopy it for another person. I don't think anyone is actually proposing to run off as many as a hundred copies, and if they did, they would lose their shirts on the enterprise, much as Ruth Bean, apparently would if they did it. It is the person who reproduces the pattern that suffers economic loss in this scenario, so how do you calculate damages? It would be an interesting question for a law school exam. It seems to me that every year Ruth Bean is deluged with e-mails from people pleading to have them reprint this pattern. This kind of annoyance is probably unknown for The Idiot's Guide to Safe Cracking, for instance, but the lacemakers are a fanatically law abiding group. Devon who never advocates law-breaking. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues
Although not hard and fast. The cases I have read would indicate that a Fifteen percent (15%) change would be a new design. I'd go Twenty percent (20%) to be sure. How you measure that is a jury question. I might suggest you leave out the hard parts. Tom - Original Message - From: Clay Blackwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues Hi Tom, and Devon, and other lacemakers! To take this question in a slightly different direction, how much would the original design have to be changed in order to call it an original design? If a creative lacemaker used the mat as inspiration and made a design that looked a great deal like the mat - but was not an exact duplication - would that be a violation of copyright? Clay - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues So, Tom, if someone were, hypothetically speaking, not that I am advocating it, to very quietly and in a non-public place, photocopy the pattern and give it to her friend, how would the damages be reckoned? Ruth Bean repeatedly goes on record as saying that it is not worth reprinting. However, they did respond with a reminder that they own the copyright at one point when someone offered on-line to photocopy it for another person. I don't think anyone is actually proposing to run off as many as a hundred copies, and if they did, they would lose their shirts on the enterprise, much as Ruth Bean, apparently would if they did it. It is the person who reproduces the pattern that suffers economic loss in this scenario, so how do you calculate damages? It would be an interesting question for a law school exam. It seems to me that every year Ruth Bean is deluged with e-mails from people pleading to have them reprint this pattern. This kind of annoyance is probably unknown for The Idiot's Guide to Safe Cracking, for instance, but the lacemakers are a fanatically law abiding group. Devon who never advocates law-breaking. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Miss Channer Reduction
Dear Friends, I have spent about 10 hours today working on the pricking for Miss Channer's Mat, which will be my next project starting tomorrow. For some years now I've looked at it and wanted to reduce it to a size suitable for 2/20 silk. The problem was that the pricking was too large for the scanner. So today after a lot of fiddling around, I managed to scan it in sections, rejoin them in PaintShopPro and reduce the overall length of the Mat to 232mm. Then after I printed it out I simply had to go over every dot, re-scan it, and print it again. It's now safely saved at that size in my Lace Prickings directory. Somehow I envisage an entire night, and perhaps even all day tomorrow, winding bobbins in Black Pipers Silk 2/20. I shall be using Glory Brazilian Embroidery thread for the gimps. Has anyone seen another black Channer's Mat? David Downunder in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
