[L-I] 100 000 in Berlin honor Communist heroes
- Via Workers World News Service Reprinted from the Jan. 25, 2001 issue of Workers World newspaper - LUXEMBURG LIEBKNECHT: 100,000 IN BERLIN HONOR MEMORY OF COMMUNIST HEROES By John Catalinotto Berlin Some 100,000 people walked to the memorial in Friedrichsfelde Cemetery here in Berlin Jan. 15 to pay respects to two martyred communist leaders, Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht. The two were murdered by the German Free Korps on Jan. 15, 1919, just days after the communist party they founded took responsibility for the Berlin workers' abortive attempt to seize power earlier that January. The two revolutionaries are famous and beloved for their courageous opposition to Germany's role in World War I. At a time when the majority of the Social Democratic Party leadership was betraying their promises to fight against their country's role in that murderous war, Liebknecht was the only member of the party in the German Bundestag (Parliament) to vote against war credits. Luxemburg was the only woman at the time who was a top ideological leader of a major party, and had influence in the struggles within the worldwide communist movement. The Luxemburg-Liebknecht demonstration takes place each year, gathering pro-revolutionary forces from all over Germany into Berlin. In times when the socialist German Democratic Republic existed, the government supported and encouraged the demonstration. Now, when there is one imperialist-ruled Germany, the demonstration is a measure of the mood of the left and the potential for struggle. Really, two demonstrations take place. One consists of marches of a coalition of left, revolutionary working-class and anarchist forces that march from further downtown to the memorial. In past years the police have provoked clashes with this part of the demonstration, though these clashes were limited to a few arrests this year. About 10,000 people took part in this march, with a larger and more visible participation this time from Turkish and Kurdish revolutionary organizations. These groups, who also were calling attention to the many Turkish and Kurdish political prisoners the Turkish military killed last month, carried banners honoring the two German revolutionaries. The other is a gathering of 90,000 people, most of them from the former GDR, who lay red carnations on the memorial site for Luxemburg and Liebknecht, or perhaps on the graves and markers of other socialist and communist heroes buried in the cemetery. These people were called out by the Party for Democratic Socialism, the only pro-socialist party in the German Bundestag. - END - (Copyleft Workers World Service: Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this document, but changing it is not allowed. For more information contact Workers World, 55 W. 17 St., NY, NY 10011; via e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For subscription info send message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.workers.org) ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Indigenous Summit on FTAA.
For Rad-Greens: Any movement built on anti capitalist environmentalist issues that leaves this behind *again* will be useless and bound to fail. Make the links and make the alliance. -Macdonald INDIGENOUS PEOPLES AND THE FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS: AN ALTERNATIVE SUMMIT, CALL FOR PAPERS, PANELS AND INVOLVEMENT SALLE KONDIARIONK, HURON RESERVE, QUEBEC CITY, April 19-21 The proposal to create the FTAA extends a process of imperial globalization that began in 1492 and continues yet. Once again the geopolitical map of the Americas is about to be redrawn in ways that violate the titles, treaties and basic human rights of the hemisphere's First Nations. The FTAA continues the genocidal tradition which began with the founding of New Spain, New England, New France, New Netherlands etc as jurisdictions based on the absorption of Indian lands, usually without Indian consent. Again and again the map of America has been redrawn in Europe on the assumption that the hemisphere's Indigenous peoples are inferior and subordinate and have no fundamental right to a say in deciding what happens on First Nations lands and territories. This process began when the Pope apportioned the Americas for Spain and Portugal. It continued with the founding of the USA as an engine of genocidal western expansion. The Treaty of Paris which granted the USA its original land base in 1783, the Louisiana Purchase of 1803, the absorption of the northern part of Mexico into the USA in 1848, the USA's purchase of Alaska in 1867, the transfer of the land titles of the Hudson's Bay Company to the Dominion of Canada in 1869, and the creation of the Noth America Free Trade Area in 1993, all were negotiated as if the hemisphere's Indigenous peoples didn't exist. Now the ministerial gathering in Quebec City points to the prospect of yet another redrawing of the map of the hemisphere with the creation of what is being called the Free Trade Area of the Americas. Such an illegal imposition on all the hemisphere's citizens projects into new jurisdictional frontiers the Columbian Conquests which began in 1492. The USA's notorious violations of its 400 or so treaties with Indigenous peoples shows that the world's only remaining Superpower has no respect for the sanctity of treaties and for the requirements of living within the framework of international law. The USA added to its notorious reputation in 1871, when the American Congress passed a law excluding the American government from the international juridical principles as they then existed. From that time forward the USA has been an outlaw state in terms of its failure to respect even the limited requirements of international law mandating the purchase through treaty of Aboriginal title before non-Aboriginal settlement can proceed. The events leading up to the Trail of Tears as well as the country's horrific genocides make the USA one of the world's most grievous perpetrators of that genre of international crime which has recently been labelled "ethnic cleansing." The founding of the state of California as the result of a particularly violent gold rush make that jurisdiction the site of especially horrific crimes against humanity. The tradition of the Indian wars continued into recent times with particular severity in the US backed reign of terror directed against Mayan peoples in Guatemala. As Nobel Peace Prize Rigobertu Menchu has clarified, this ruthless genocide against her own peoples was aimed at destroying the Indian way of life. Until those violations are addressed in appropriate venues for the arbitration of international crimes against humanity, there is no reason for Indigenous peoples, or, for that matter, any other people throughout the Americas to have trust in a new treaty creating a FTAA. Such a treaty would violate hundreds of earlier treaties made with First Nations peoples throughout the Americas. Such a treaty which would formalize the USA's hegemonic dominance in a hemisphere bathed with Indian blood in the ongoing Columbian Conquests. From April 19-21, the Huron Reserve in Quebec City, the current capital of Wendake, will be the site of an alternative summit to highlight the many issues in and around the relationships of Indigenous peoples throughout the Americas to the proposed FTAA. The meetings will take place at Salle Kondiaronk on the Huron reserve at Loretteville. This community is situated about eight miles from downtown Quebec City. This announcement includes a request for proposals for presentations, presenters and panel discussions of relevance to the idea of the FTAA as a violation of the basic human rights of all the hemisphere's citizens, but most especially of the First Nations. This alternative summit can be the site of a wide array of discussions, including those pertaining to environmental, labour and women's issues. The gathering will be in the tradition of the freedom fighters in the Zapatista movement in Mexico. In 1994 the Zapatistas
Re: [L-I] Any translators? This from another list...
I would also like to point out that what I posted here (from another list) is also from a subscriber to this list. In other words, if Alexander (or anyone else) would like to take it upon him/herself to translate, you can direct your questions about the KPRF directly to them. They have been quietly watching us discuss them without saying a word. My criticisms of their actions in political struggle in Russia notwithstanding, I welcome them strongly and hope that some of their members have a chance to talk with us. It could only help our understanding, whether we agree or not. Anyone who slongs mud at them *directly* knows what will happen. Macdonald - Original Message - From: Alexander Domrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] TRANSLATION Dear Comrades: That would be extremely appreciated if you could send your materials to us in Russian (to avoid possible mistakes in our translation); your materials would be placed on the CPRF official site (www.kprf.ru) Hope to continue our cooperation. Our email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sincerely, Vladimir Sovetsky - Original Message - From: Macdonald Stainsby [EMAIL PROTECTED] Уважаемые товарищи. ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Is Party for Democratic Socialism pro-socialist? (was Re: [L-I] 100 000 in Berlin honor Communist heroes)
En relacin a [L-I] 100 000 in Berlin honor Communist heroes, el 20 Jan 01, a las 2:55, Macdonald Stainsby dijo: - Via Workers World News Service Reprinted from the Jan. 25, 2001 issue of Workers World newspaper - LUXEMBURG LIEBKNECHT: 100,000 IN BERLIN HONOR MEMORY OF COMMUNIST HEROES By John Catalinotto Berlin Some 100,000 people walked to the memorial in Friedrichsfelde Cemetery here in Berlin Jan. 15 to pay respects to two martyred communist leaders, Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht. [...] Really, two demonstrations take place. About 10,000 people took part in this march, [...] The [...] gathering of 90,000 people [...] were called out by the Party for Democratic Socialism, the only pro-socialist party in the German Bundestag. I would take exception to the qualification of the Party for Democratic Socialism as a "pro-socialist party" in the Leninist sense. Before I extend, I would ask German or Austrian cdes. on the list to provide us with their opinions and with information. Nstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] : [L-I] To moderators from Russia - to Mark Jones
I am sure we'd all want to welcome Svetlana to this list. It is very good to establish cordial relations with Russian leftist and working class organisations. I hope that she will play an active part in our discussions. When comrades honestly and sincerely strive to understand each other's positions, and diligently seek to explain and analyse differences, much can be achieved. But to begin by attacking the moderators is not helpful. Rather than begin with a discussion of personalities and of list policy, I think it would be more useful if Svetlana informed the list about the activities of her organisation in Samara, and about its viewpoint and arguments, and also if she asks any questions she has about the political orientations etc of other people on the list. Then we can hope to find some common ground, or anyway to understand one another better. Mark Dear Mark! Certainly I would like to take an active part in your discussions. My comrades and I see that your list pays much attention to Russia and this fact makes us happy. We was glad that among paticipants of your list we have been seeing the comrades who give great help to the Russian left and workers' movement such as Vladimir Bilenkin and Steve Mayers. True, Steve`s letters do not appear in the list in the last days, probably he is too busy. I have told the list about activity of my organization quite in detail, in my opinion. I could also expound my political views and my comrade`s view-points to subjects discussed in your list but I am not sure that the words which do not belong to me will not be attributed to me and I shall not be dumped after sending my first two debatable messages to the list, as this happened with our comrade Vladimir Bilenkin. You consider incorrect that I began with discussion of personalities. But I am going to communicate not with robots in your list but with the people, and it is very important for me to know what human streaks have the people which have created this list and participate in it. I believe, it is very important that there were comradely, democratic relations during our common work for communism in this list or else honest and fruitful polemics will be impossible. I do not deny, that your list should have and carry out its editorial policy and, as on any list, and I consider necessary the expelling from any list those members who debate dishonestly or insult other participants of discussion. But in Vladimir Bilenkin`s case there were no such basis. The attribution of another`s words to Vladimir took place. I have shown it in my answer to Louis Project which I have just sent. Read it, please. And I hope that this annoying situation will be remedied by you and your unbiassed colleagues-moderators. Dear Mark, you wrote that "It is very good to establish cordial relations with Russian leftist and working class organisations". We also would like to establish such relations with Western leftists and organizations of Western working class. But unfortunately we do not see, how it is possible, while our comrade Vladimir is still striked off the Leninist-international list. And I do not doubt, that you and other moderators of the list consider that it is impossible to expell from the list those members whose political views contradict their own ones or veiw-points of majority of the participants of discussion. I am sure that you are agree that freedom of expression of judgements is the first necessary condition for any fruitful polemics, especially marxist. That`s why we suppose that elemination of Vladimir Bilenkin from the list was an outcome of misunderstanding and we repeat our request to remedy occured and to subscribe his address to your list. Best wishes, Svetlana Baiborodova ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] : [L-I] To moderators from Russia - to Louis Proyect
I and my comrades in Russia want to read Vladimir Bilenkin`s point of view on problems disturbing us in living discussion with all other participants of your list. I hope, you will heed our request and correct the situation. Comradely, Svetlana Baiborodova I think Vladimir was thrown off not for what he wrote about Russia, but what he wrote about the USA: "The big problem in Florida was that democratic operatives gave voters the wrong information. They bused illiterate blacks to the polls and told them to punch a hole on every page - forgetting there were 2 pages of presidential candidates. . . .The reasons the dems didn't want to join in on the black complaints was simple. Black voting in Florida was up 65%. A full 16% of all votes cast in Florida were cast by black voters. Yet, only 13% of Florida's population is black. It's almost impossible to make a claim that they were disenfranchised, when they were actually overrepresented at the polls." This business about busing "illiterate blacks to the polls" is racist. Frankly, I was shocked to read this. I haven't seen anything Vladimir has written in probably 5 years when he was one of the most disruptive Trotskyists in cyberspace. I am afraid he has shifted far to the right. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org Louis, Vladimir is an internationalist. I know this exactly. You haven't seen anything written by Vladimir in nearly 5 last years but I have read his recent articles on different subjects including problems of nationalism and I know his practical activity in development of the working class organizations in Russia. Vladimir is a genuine communist, fighting against any chauvinizm, depend upon me. I have to express my view-point to an aspect important for the list, to my mind. Firstly, when I have met with this case on this list, I have supposed that it is a contingency, misunderstanding. But the further, the more I wonder and become perplexed. You wrote that Vladimir was thrown off for he wrote the following: "The big problem in Florida was that democratic operatives gave voters the wrong information. They bused illiterate blacks to the polls and told them to punch a hole on every page - forgetting there were 2 pages of presidential candidates. . . ." etc. But you have not seen, that the indicated phrase belongs not to Vladimir but to his friend, whose letter was published on the Leninist-International list. Look once again at Vladimir Bilenkin`s letter "Re: [L-I] Well, what the heck?", January 14, from which you have taken this fragment. He wrote: "I forwarded this article to a friend of mine who took the mess in Florida rather close to heart and researched it. ... Anyway, THIS IS WHAT MY FRIEND, who has a more than healthy doze of scepticism about both right and left, WROTE TO ME." Or I should not trust my own eyes? How could this fact not be noticed by you? I am in bewilderment and do not understand what is this. May be this is any eyelight disease? In that case see a doctor, please. Moreover, I think the fact that anybody publishes some article on the list for discussion does not signify that the sender agrees with position of the article. As I see, Vladimir forwarded his pal`s letter with debatable vew-point because Vladimir consider that the class method of approach should include the analysis of national aspects in research of all social problems. And I agree entirely with him. Otherwise we shall have only poor, abstract substitute of the class method of approach. May be I am mistaken because of my imperfect English but, in my opinion, the fraze from that letter "They bused illiterate blacks to the polls ", means not that the author considers that all Negro race is illiterate, but the indication to the fact that the operatives from the democratic party used dishonestly the illiterate, retarded representatives of this race at the elections. Whether the racial oppression in USA is already overcome completely and there is no more retarded blacks? I can not know whether the fact indicated in the letter took place or not in reality, but if it really has taken place it is incorrect to ignore it because the fact of manipulation by the backward part of the black population by various political forces is manifestation of racism too, in my opinion. And the ignoring of this fact, refusal of discussion of it because of fear that it will be recognized as racism, - is not it capitulation to racism? And even if Vladimir`s friend is mistaken and Tony Abdo is right writing: "I think that you have made some pretty wild comments here..." (attributing it by mistake to Vladimir Bilenkin), - why you, comrade Luois, and your colleagues - moderators deprive me and my comrades of a possibility to learn what happens in USA in reality? Tony has presented arguments against an expressed hypothesis, he has explained why "the idea that the Black population gets a fair shake PLUS in Florida is incredible" and
[L-I] Re: Socialist Democracy at Home and Abroad
Nestor, I don't know that there is a scientific/ 'leninist' definition of Social Democracy. You have pegged it with two aspects; trade unionism and 'cooptation of the workers by the bourgeois state in an imperialist formation'. But can't workers be coopted by the bourgeois state outside the imperialist countries and outside the trade unions?What about the work in the communities done by socialists in groups like the PRD-Mexico? Much of the poliical work of the Left falls outside trade unionism. It involves struggles over access to electricity, drainage, or drinking water, rights to property in shanty towns 'illegally' built and occupied,, defense against police or official oppression, tax issues, access to necessary federal and/or state funds funds, and so on. In Mexico, much of this work had little connection with trade unionism, yet fell under the umbrella of PRD politics. But I would, rather surprisingly for you, however, take some exception to the definition of the PRD as a "social democratic" party. If you push me to a definition, I will give it, but as you know I am quite respectful of the opinions of those who are on the spot.. Well, I am not on the spot so to speak. If anything, I am in between the spots by currently living in Laredo, Texas (main truck stop of NAFTA). Most of the Left I know in Mexico are Zapatista supporters many miles away, in their own world of activities.So we are two 'outsiders' discussing if the PRD qualifies/ qualified with the covetted SD label, or not. I think it did consist of the same basic material as Social Democracy in the imperial bloc countries. Now it has probably somewhat withered away into liberalism, same as Tony Blair's SD. You go on to describe how you see groupings like the PRD they generally act in our politics as either a false exit for impoverished or deranged petty bourgeois (the Frepaso in Argentina, Cardoso's party in Brazil, IMHO also the PRD in Mexico) or directly as a transmission belt for the imperialist powers (such as our own Partido Socialista Democrtico... It is the exageration of this aspect of these groupings that gets them labelled as being somehow fundamentally non- social democratic in aspect, by comrades in the imperial bloc countries. They conveniently ignore the non trade union involvement in community struggle that I mentioned previously. Why is this? Well, it might be be simply because there are so few equivalent struggles over these issues in the First Word bloc. So it's difficult to see the parallels. Do we see the struggle for 'squatters rights' as SD activity? Not in Germany, say. But what about Mexico or Brazil? Most certainly we should? But there is another factor in all this labelling of SD vs non SD. In US Left politics, this labelling of PRD style activity as non SD but rather as 'class colaboration', has been used as a barrier to prevent American comrades from making contacts with a more plural exposure to leadership issues. Historically within the US Trotskyist movement, the excuse for not doing joint activities with the Mexican Trotskyists has been, that the overwhelming bulk are revisionists that have crossed over into class colaborationism. No need to expose US rank and file comrades to opnions at variance, with opinions emanating from above within the US leadership. How convenient it was to NOT qualify as SD, Third World activism of this character. Tony ___ me... Social Democracy embodies a natural tendency of the oppressed to first approach power apologetically. and with minimal demands. Nestor... Maybe it is just a matter of words. Maybe not. If it is, then let us not fall into the sin of nominalism! The above I would rather name, in a more Leninist way, tradeunionism. Social Democracy, as it has appeared after WWI, is something different, it is the cooptation of the parties of the workers by the bourgeois state in an imperialist formation. ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Illiterate blacks
Svetlana: May be I am mistaken because of my imperfect English but, in my opinion, the fraze from that letter "They bused illiterate blacks to the polls ", means not that the author considers that all Negro race is illiterate, but the indication to the fact that the operatives from the democratic party used dishonestly the illiterate, retarded representatives of this race at the elections. Svetlana, literacy tests were used to exclude Blacks from voting in the South for most of the 20th century. Sharecroppers, who could not read because of poor education, were literate enough to tell the difference between the name of a racist and a desegregationist during Jim Crow years. When Marxists give credit to the notion that illiteracy is some kind of litmus test for voting, then we have no business talking about revolution. Revolutions of the 20th century have been made by illiterate people. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/ ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] To Mark Jones - : [L-I] To moderators from Russia
I am sure we'd all want to welcome Svetlana to this list. It is very good to establish cordial relations with Russian leftist and working class organisations. I hope that she will play an active part in our discussions. When comrades honestly and sincerely strive to understand each other's positions, and diligently seek to explain and analyse differences, much can be achieved. But to begin by attacking the moderators is not helpful. Rather than begin with a discussion of personalities and of list policy, I think it would be more useful if Svetlana informed the list about the activities of her organisation in Samara, and about its viewpoint and arguments, and also if she asks any questions she has about the political orientations etc of other people on the list. Then we can hope to find some common ground, or anyway to understand one another better. Mark Dear Mark! Certainly I would like to take an active part in your discussions. My comrades and I see that your list pays much attention to Russia and this fact makes us happy. We was glad that among paticipants of your list we have been seeing the comrades who give great help to the Russian left and workers' movement such as Vladimir Bilenkin and Steve Mayers. True, Steve`s letters do not appear in the list in the last days, probably he is too busy. I have told the list about activity of my organization quite in detail, in my opinion. I could also expound my political views and my comrade`s view-points to subjects discussed in your list but I am not sure that the words which do not belong to me will not be attributed to me and I shall not be dumped after sending my first two debatable messages to the list, as this happened with our comrade Vladimir Bilenkin. You consider incorrect that I began with discussion of personalities. But I am going to communicate not with robots in your list but with the people, and it is very important for me to know what human streaks have the people which have created this list and participate in it. I believe, it is very important that there were comradely, democratic relations during our common work for communism in this list or else honest and fruitful polemics will be impossible. I do not deny, that your list should have and carry out its editorial policy and, as on any list, and I consider necessary the expelling from any list those members who debate dishonestly or insult other participants of discussion. But in Vladimir Bilenkin`s case there were no such basis. The attribution of another`s words to Vladimir took place. I have shown it in my answer to Louis Project which I have just sent. Read it, please. And I hope that this annoying situation will be remedied by you and your unbiassed colleagues-moderators. Dear Mark, you wrote that "It is very good to establish cordial relations with Russian leftist and working class organisations". We also would like to establish such relations with Western leftists and organizations of Western working class. But unfortunately we do not see, how it is possible, while our comrade Vladimir is still striked off the Leninist-international list. And I do not doubt, that you and other moderators of the list consider that it is impossible to expell from the list those members whose political views contradict their own ones or veiw-points of majority of the participants of discussion. I am sure that you are agree that freedom of expression of judgements is the first necessary condition for any fruitful polemics, especially marxist. That`s why we suppose that elemination of Vladimir Bilenkin from the list was an outcome of misunderstanding and we repeat our request to remedy occured and to subscribe his address to your list. Best wishes, Svetlana Baiborodova ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] My two cents (was: Re: [L-I] ïÔ×ÅÔ: [L-I] To moderators from Russia - to Louis Proyect)
En relacin a [L-I] : [L-I] To moderators from Russia - to, el 20 Jan 01, a las 19:36, Svetlana Baiborodova dijo: ... you have not seen, that the indicated phrase belongs not to Vladimir but to his friend, whose letter was published on the Leninist-International list. [...] I agree with the above. I was not sure whether it had been Bilenkin himself who had written those lines or, as I had thought, his friend in Florida. The Russian cdes. are finally supporting my first impression. I feel that eviction of Vladimir was quite unjustified, in this sense, and a concession to political correctness. We have an opportunity, at least as a potential opportunity, to have some most important debate on Russia in L-I, where we have cdes. who belong or favor the KPRF, we have cdes. like Svetlana Baiborodova with a clearly distinct non-KPRF position, and we can have (if his expulsion is revised, and provided he agrees to return --VB has a defect IMHO: he gets too angry too easily) Bilenkin with his own points of view. If we add to this Mark's positions and experience, then we can probably provide from L-I a unique melting pot where the current situation of the Russian working class and the perspectives for Russia (which in more senses than one are still essential for the perspectives of the whole globe) can be debated, for the benefit of all. As to the other comments by cde. Svetlana, I am afraid they betray her lack of contact with the actual situation in the USA and, particularly, of the situation of African Americans. This is nothing to blame her for, since what really matters with a revolutionary is to be able to understand the concrete situation at the place where she or he has to help making a revolution. One may, of course (and I do commit that sin more often than I would like to) give opinions on other countries' realities, which is a good way to learn from those who are actually involved in that reality. But I am sure that what most members of this list expect from me is, besides general theoretic positions, the theory and the facts that spurt out of the concrete Argentinean (and to a lesser extent, Latin American) history and politics. As for me, I have never learnt more from comrades on L-I than when they commented on realities they had been strongly engaged into, or they were engaged into at the moment of writing their postings. And I am hopefully looking forwards to the exchange that I hope the various Russian members of this list can have, for Russia and Russian workers are, I repeat, a cornerstone of the current world situation, and the latter will IMHO -a heavy honor, I admit- be soon called to decide whether they want to begin again the long march they assumed when, taking the leadership of the whole of humankind, they stormed the Winter Palace in 1917, or they prefer to sink further in barbarism together with all of us. Nstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Re: ïÔ×ÅÔ: To moderators from Russia -to Louis Proyect
I absolutely agree with you, Svetlana. Vladimir and I have both been deprived of our right to discuss these issues. And most importantly still, other participants on this list have been deprived of the right to see the issues debated. This trigger happy attitude towards expelling people off list has been made into some kind of supposed virtue, when it is nothing more than the most rank and abusive censorship. I once again call upon the moderators to cancel their expulsion off list, of Vladimir, Owen, and Steve. It would be an act of characer to admit the mistake, rather than compounding it. It is no sin to do something mistakenly, and then to rectify it. I suggest that in the future, if it appears that a particular commentator is abusing his list participation in some form or another, that the list be polled about whether it be necessary to remove that person or not. Tony Svetlana wrote. And even if Vladimir`s friend is mistaken and Tony Abdo is right writing: "I think that you have made some pretty wild comments here..." (attributing it by mistake to Vladimir Bilenkin), - why you, comrade Luois, and your colleagues - moderators deprive me and my comrades of a possibility to learn what happens in USA in reality? Tony has presented arguments against an expressed hypothesis, he has explained why "the idea that the Black population gets a fair shake PLUS in Florida is incredible" and has made it in the correct form. Having thrown Vladimir off the list, what did you deprive both him and Tony Abdo of the means to debate in public for? Why did you deprive me and my Russian comrades of the possibility to read their polemics? ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Re: [L-I] : [L-I] To moderators from Russia - to Louis Proyect
- Original Message - From: Svetlana Baiborodova [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Svetlana, neither Louis or Mark are moderators here. I hope you stay, but Bilenkin is not- EVER- welcome here. I hope that can be clear. No Myers, no Bilenkin. Only one Jones. Macdonald Stainsby, Co-Moderator ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Re: [L-I] Re: ïÔ×ÅÔ: To moderators from Russia -to Louis Proyect
I once again call upon the moderators to cancel their expulsion off list, of Vladimir, Owen, and Steve. It would be an act of characer to admit the mistake, rather than compounding it. It is no sin to do something mistakenly, and then to rectify it. I like you Tony. But it ain't gonna happen. The mistake was waiting so long that all of these characters got comfortable. Beyond that, as far as Bilenkin goes, he was only partially removed because of his endorsement of racist filth against US Blacks. He also has quite a history of declaring "lines" on elists and splitting them down the middle. In fact, Bilenkin was the only individual of the three removed that Johannes agreed to. Owen and Steve, for reasons I will not go over again, are in the dustbin of L-I history. Move on. Macdonald ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] : [L-I] Re: [L-I] : [L-I] To moderators from Russia - to Louis Proyect
Svetlana, neither Louis or Mark are moderators here. I hope you stay, but Bilenkin is not- EVER- welcome here. I hope that can be clear. No Myers, no Bilenkin. Only one Jones. Macdonald Stainsby, Co-Moderator Oh, I am sorry for my mistake. It was found that you are the boss of this list. I hope that I speak clear too. If no Bilenkin - no me and no anyone of my Russian comrade. Only you. And Jones. Svetlana ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Illiterate blacks
Revolutions of the 20th century have been made by illiterate people. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/ Far more often than by the literate, I would almost guarantee. If the revolution was socialist, the illiteracy wasn't going to last for long. Macdonald ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Re:Svetlana to Moderation team
Ugh. I hate the word "boss". It's sufficient grounds for suicide. I am a co-moderator. Two women- Yoshie Furuhashi and Mine Aysen Doyran- are my co-moderators. I speak clearly because I already know they agree to these points and I merely received your message first. Bilenkin was dumped "unanimously" Saying "no" to list-members is a very painful thing to do. But, in this case the list is in better hands without the gentleman you speak of. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. You are welcome to return and tell us of your struggles whenever you wish, but I get the feeling you do not understand the kind of list we are building here. Sorry, Nestor- Valdimir is trouble. I can't say your advice rings with me, at least this time. --- Macdonald Stainsby, Co-Moderator. Rad-Green List: Radical anti-capitalist environmental discussion. http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/rad-green Leninist-International: Building bridges within Marxism in the tradition of V.I. Lenin. http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Russian officials boycott George W. Bush's inauguration celebration in Moscow
strana.ru January 19, 2001 Russian officials boycott George W. Bush's inauguration celebration in Moscow It has become known to Strana.Ru that there is a maturing opinion among the invited leading Russian representatives of the presidential administration and the government to boycott the reception at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow in the evening of January 20 commemorating the inauguration of the U.S. president-elect. The reception is being given in honor of the inauguration of the newly elected President of the United States of America, George W. Bush, and is to take place from 7:00 p.m. to 10:10 p.m., exactly at the time when the newly elected American President will be sworn in. This can be regarded as an extremely scandalous and unprecedented demonstration on the part of the Russian state elite: Russian ministers, their first deputies and a number of ranking officials from the government, as well as prominent figures from the presidential administration and its subdivisions were invited to the ceremony. "This is not an official decision, and because of that, in the given situation, I would not like to speak out as an official person," one of the governmental spokesmen told our correspondent. "But as for myself, we have decided that it would be incorrect to go to the U.S. Ambassador's residence in Moscow and smile in front of the American diplomats, including those who issued a visa to Borodin, possibly knowing what kind of reception was in store for him (in the United States). The Russian government spokesman explained that, of course, the matter did not concern specific figures from the U.S. Embassy. --- Macdonald Stainsby Rad-Green List: Radical anti-capitalist environmental discussion. http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/rad-green Leninist-International: Building bridges within Marxism in the tradition of V.I. Lenin. http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Re: Socialist Democracy at Home and Abroad
I have many friends who are supporters of the PRD. Many Californians and trade unionists support them. But the PRD was criticized for not supporting the Zapatistas clearly enough. Some Mexican friends of mine state that the leadership of the PRD were former PRI folks. Yes, I would say that they are Social Democratic and Liberal. We unite with them against the genocide and imperialism that was happening in Mexico. But, they are not revolutionary and not supportive of self defense for indigenous folks. ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Re: ïÔ×ÅÔ: To moderators from Russia-to Louis Proyect
Let me see if I have all this right? Johannes wanted Vladimir off list, with Steve and Owen off? Nestor wants Vladimir on, but Steve and Owen off.Mark is not a list moderator, yet assures us that certain folk shall not return.And Lou is against having people use the word illiterate, Buchanan, or hillbilly. That's grounds for expulsion?! I never did hear a reply to the idea of getting list paticipants feed back on who is on, and who is off. My last expulsion off a list for my supposedly deplorable conduct was off a Houston list called the HoustonPeaceRoundTable. The excuse was, that I kept mentioning that someone who declared himself a friend of the police, might be unwlecome on a 'peace' oriented list. He even used a false name, ' Villa Logan', that seemed to match an area of the city which was famous for it's lynching of Blacks.But my conduct was less than peaceful on a 'peace' list.According to the moderator. Prior to that, I was expelled off Lacny's marxism list for not being supportive of the Fletcher wing of the AFL-CIO bureaucracy. I called into question certain 'in' methods of union organizing, using 'professional organizers from outside the community.Of course, once again, it was my 'conduct' that was the reason given.Not that I was critical of certain aspects of politics that the moderator supported religiously.No, it's always the way it's done. It's always that 'conduct' that is inappropriate! Right before this all blew up on this list, the moderator of the Chomsky list had posed the question on whether there should be limits on 'free speech'. I suggested that Yes, stop 'free speech' for Pepsi and Coke.It's actually paid for by vampires that are sucking our blood.. Obviously, there is more to this question than just that. So, outside of the immediate and current situation with on and off list people here, what about the general question of 'free speech'?Should it be limited in a 'free society'? Tony Macdonald. I like you Tony.Move on. What are you suggesting here, Macdonald? BTW, I like you, too. It's just that I believe that power to remove people off list should not be concentrated so, but distributed around a little more. ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] : [L-I] Re:Svetlana to Moderation team
I like you Tony. But it ain't gonna happen. The mistake was waiting so long that all of these characters got comfortable. Beyond that, as far as Bilenkin goes, he was only partially removed because of his endorsement of racist filth against US Blacks. I am a co-moderator. Two women- Yoshie Furuhashi and Mine Aysen Doyran- are my co-moderators. I speak clearly because I already know they agree to these points and I merely received your message first. Bilenkin was dumped "unanimously" Oh, it is found that not only Louis Proyect has this strange "eyelight defect"! It is collective disease. I am a physician by my first profession but I did not meet such strange case before... It looks like infection. A bad case. And what if it is contagious for other members of the list?! What can I advise them? The only remedy to prevent spreading of infection is isolation of contagion... And as to you, Macdonald, your "ÓÏ-moderators", Proyect, Jones - unfortunetely I can not help you. And any oculist cannot. Dishonesty is uncurable. I go away, be happy! Svetlana Baiborodova ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Any translators? This from another list...
Yeah, but it might be a pseudonym too - in the best traditions of Lenin-Trotsky-Stalin... Have a nice weekend, Alexander At 12:36 PM 1/20/2001 -0300, you wrote: En relacin a Re: [L-I] Any translators? This from another list, el 20 Jan 01, a las 5:46, Macdonald Stainsby dijo: Sincerely, Vladimir Sovetsky A nom de guerre? Is "Vladimir child of the Councils" a true Russian name? Just curious, actually. Nstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Illiterate blacks
There is a tendency on this list to give a highly sophisticated explanation to often ordinary events. The question is NOT about problems of education in the U.S. The question is did "they" REALLY provide free transportation to poorly educated voters to get their votes? Or did "they" NOT? Is it TRUTH or NOT? Period. If it's possible to buy a vote for a bottle of vodka in Russia, why something like that cannot be possible in the U.S., hardly having better educated people than Russia? Did Bilenkin's informer LIE or did he NOT? Have a nice weekend, Alex At 10:56 AM 1/20/2001 -0500, you wrote: Svetlana: May be I am mistaken because of my imperfect English but, in my opinion, the fraze from that letter "They bused illiterate blacks to the polls ", means not that the author considers that all Negro race is illiterate, but the indication to the fact that the operatives from the democratic party used dishonestly the illiterate, retarded representatives of this race at the elections. Svetlana, literacy tests were used to exclude Blacks from voting in the South for most of the 20th century. Sharecroppers, who could not read because of poor education, were literate enough to tell the difference between the name of a racist and a desegregationist during Jim Crow years. When Marxists give credit to the notion that illiteracy is some kind of litmus test for voting, then we have no business talking about revolution. Revolutions of the 20th century have been made by illiterate people. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/ ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
RE: [L-I] oTWET: [L-I] Re:Svetlana to Moderation team
Svetlana Baiborodova wrote: I go away, be happy! Svyetichka, this already your 5th or 6th curtain call, are you going or staying? Privyet, Mark ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Re: oTWET: To moderators from Russia -to Louis Proyect
Mark Jones wrote: Tony: what about the general question of 'free speech'?Should it be limited in a 'free society'? This is a very interesting question. What did Lenin and/or Marx have to say about it? Freedom of speech refers only to the use abuse of state power. it is irrelevant in the present context. Carrol ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
RE: [L-I] Re: oTWET: To moderators from Russia -to Louis Proyect
Carrol Cox wrote: Freedom of speech refers only to the use abuse of state power. it is irrelevant in the present context. Damn, and here was I hoping to drag Lenin into it somehow. You're right of course. As ever. Mark ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Baiborodova-Bilenkin-Myers-Shein
Racist Bilenkin secterian Myers had no positive business here. The decision was made in the interest off all. There is no reason to occupy ourselves with dead horse topics. Let's move on, comrades!!! co-moderator Mine Alexander Domrin wrote: I wonder why Svetlana is so upset because of Bilenkin's expulsion only and not about expulsion of Myers. In the end, it was Myers who arranged a tour to England and somewhere else for Oleg Shein (Bilenkin would say, "bused literate Shein to Europe"), co-chairman of Defence of Labour trade union ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]). Baiborodova is a co-chairman of a regional (Samara) organisation of that TU. Best, AD At 09:30 PM 1/20/2001 +0400, you wrote: Svetlana, neither Louis or Mark are moderators here. I hope you stay, but Bilenkin is not- EVER- welcome here. I hope that can be clear. No Myers, no Bilenkin. Only one Jones. Macdonald Stainsby, Co-Moderator Oh, I am sorry for my mistake. It was found that you are the boss of this list. I hope that I speak clear too. If no Bilenkin - no me and no anyone of my Russian comrade. Only you. And Jones. Svetlana ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international -- Mine Aysen Doyran Ph.D Student Department of Political Science SUNY at Albany Nelson A. Rockefeller College 135 Western Ave.; Milne 102 Albany, NY 1 Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
RE: [L-I] Baiborodova-Bilenkin-Myers-Shein
I wonder why Svetlana is so upset because of Bilenkin's expulsion only and not about expulsion of Myers. A very interesting question. Ho-hum, I suppose we shall never know, know that Svyeta has *gone*. Mark ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Re: [L-I] Re: ïÔ×ÅÔ: To moderators from Russia -to Louis Proyect
SIUE ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
