Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
HI. Le samedi 05 mai à 01:02, Bruce Dubbs a écrit : Qrux wrote: If LFS is just a source code project, then to some extent you can say that prose style or organization is irrelevant. It's not, because it's often repeated that it's a book, as well. So, style is important, because organization can aid understanding. The descriptions and the organization is important, but it satisfies most users. We probably go through this discussion two are three time a year. Each time it's a single user that doesn't quite get it (you got it without problem). Since we have over 23000 registered users, I'd say that the vast majority get value from the book as it is. I'm not willing to make major changes for a vocal few. We will have to agree to disagree and move on. I would like to say that the book is nearly perfect ; it seems to me that people having troubles with it have not read it like a book (from the beginning and without skiping paragraphs or sections) or people having no sufficient knowledges about linux. The LFS book is not a magazine where you can pick up informations from a page or another. When I was a young mathematic student, and when I read a book on a new topic for me, I didn't skipped theorems or proofs ; that should have been the best way to misunderstand. Another point is : if some people complain about the book (and often because they are not in the audience of the book), is it a good reason to modify every thing ? I don't think so. The best is to try to help those people on the list even if it is not always easy :-) -- Ph. Delavalade -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 10:34 -0700, Qrux wrote: Would it be hard to put an unpack_warning entity before each of the Phase 1 builds (all 2 or 3), or even the Phase 2 builds (those same 2 or 3)? Hard? No. But would it be productive to do so? If the reader hasn't understood the basic instructions by the time they finish the first package build, they *shouldn't* be going any further. Our goal isn't to produce something that people can follow without any idea what they're doing. Simon. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Sat, 2012-05-05 at 17:19 +1200, Gordon Findlay wrote: In my perception the book currently assumes that the audience is people with some (considerable) understanding of the command-line, and OS concepts in general (for example the fact that 'source directory' might have different meanings depending on context). Very much so. Like myself when I started on LFS years ago - I felt I'd learned everything I could from using a distro, and wanted to know how things worked behind the scenes. Others will have different motivations, but the assumption is certainly that a) people are aiming to learn something, and b) they're already experienced Linux users who know how to compile packages from sources. And the purpose of the book (again, my perception) is educational, so the explanations about the tool-chain modifications and how cross-compilation works are not extras, but an integral part of the book. The aim is to learn, not just to get to the end. Absolutely. As far as I'm concerned, the primary purpose of LFS is to educate readers about such things - learning about tool-chains and all the other components of a Linux system by building one from parts. That you actually have a working system at the end is secondary. Encouraging users to skip those parts is entirely counterproductive, to my way of thinking. Simon. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
I started reading 7.0, and I was doing OK until about Chapter 5. Until I realized that some of my directories didn't seem right. Somehow I ended up with just a sources directory on the LFS partition. I'm not a hardened expert in Linux yet, but I do have some knowledge and I have alot of experience with computers in general. Am I required to be an expert to do this? This is my first attempt at LFS. I am trying to learn Linux at a deeper level. We try to give you a vehicle for learning. Do you? There seems to be an awful lot of hostility on here for newcomers. I'm not questioning the entire LFS philosophy, I just think the book has a couple of things the average newcomer might not understand. If you guys are so hostile to newcomers, then maybe you should just flat out tell them not to be here. Overall I was impressed by the book, but then I come on here for some CLARIFICATION of a few things and I am labeled as stupid and a troublemaker who didn't read anything and knows nothing about Linux. That's some way to greet people who are interested in your project and trying to understand the book. I guess what threw me was in Section 5.4, it says: The Binutils documentation recommends building Binutils outside of the source directory in a dedicated build directory: As I mentioned in one of my previous e-mails to the group, I wasn't too sure what this meant. I didn't understand what ...outside of the source directory... meant. I thought if it was truly outside the source directory, then where does it go? Do you know what the source directory is? Do you know what it means to be 'in' a directory? Yes, I know what it means to be 'in' a directory. But do you not see from a newcomers perspective that you seem to use source directory in more ways than one? $LFS/sources and (for example) $LFS/sources/binutils-x.x could BOTH be referred to as source directories. And when you say to build (again for example) the binutils-build directory OUTSIDE of the source directory, that can have more than one meaning. It could mean to build it outside of the $LFS/sources directory OR it could mean to build it outside of the $LFS/sources/binutils-x.x SOURCE directory, So for example, depending on one's interpretation of source directory, the binutils-build directory could be in either: $LFS/sources/binutils-build/ OR $LFS/binutils-build/ because the second one would indeed be outside the source directory As it stands, I think it can be confusing when to run things as root and when to run them as lfs user as the book doesn't always say. Yes it does. It's not repeated every page though. Under section 2.3 the very first thing one does (other than version-check.sh in the Preface) is create the file system using the mke2fs command. Where does it say you need to be root for that? I'm just saying maybe not everyone knows that you need to be root in order for that to work. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to simply add two words to clarify on page 15? To create an ext3 file system on the LFS partition, run the following [AS ROOT]: mke2fs -jv /dev/xxx I haven't read the entire book, maybe things change later on, but it seems like you should mention this. Also, I think it can be a little confusing as to what directory I am supposed to be in when running the commands sometimes, as that is very important too. What part of: For each package: 1. Using the tar program, extract the package to be built. In Chapter 5, ensure you are the lfs user when extracting the package. 2. Change to the directory created when the package was extracted. 3. Follow the book's instructions for building the package. do you not understand? Wow, again with the hostility. Let's say hypothetically that I have to uncompress the binutils-x.x file. It may not be immediately obvious where one is supposed to be when issuing the command: mkdir -v ../binutils-build cd ../binutils-build Couldn't the book simply clarify (briefly) where the binutils directory should be to clarify it for new users? Are you guys aware that a fairly substantial number of the web links in the book no longer work? I made a list and tried to send it to lfs-dev, but that was before I realized that I had to join it first, so not sure if anyone received it. You are using a book that was published in September. Links change. It's up to you to find new ones. The books are like RFCs. Once published, we do not change that version. I never said I had a problem downloading packages. But it is good to know (now) that you do not revise released books. I was referring to some homepage links which the lfs-dev list has verified. I also tried e-mailing lfs-support-ow...@linuxfromscratch.org about a week ago to get some help, but never heard back from anyone. That's the mailman internal address. You have the right address now. That is the e-mail address given at the bottom of:
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On 5/4/2012 5:34 AM, Scott Robertson wrote: I started reading 7.0, and I was doing OK until about Chapter 5. Until I realized that some of my directories didn't seem right. Somehow I ended up with just a sources directory on the LFS partition. I'm not a hardened expert in Linux yet, but I do have some knowledge and I have alot of experience with computers in general. Am I required to be an expert to do this? This is my first attempt at LFS. I am trying to learn Linux at a deeper level. We try to give you a vehicle for learning. Do you? There seems to be an awful lot of hostility on here for newcomers. I'm not questioning the entire LFS philosophy, I just think the book has a couple of things the average newcomer might not understand. If you guys are so hostile to newcomers, then maybe you should just flat out tell them not to be here. Overall I was impressed by the book, but then I come on here for some CLARIFICATION of a few things and I am labeled as stupid and a troublemaker who didn't read anything and knows nothing about Linux. That's some way to greet people who are interested in your project and trying to understand the book. I guess what threw me was in Section 5.4, it says: The Binutils documentation recommends building Binutils outside of the source directory in a dedicated build directory: As I mentioned in one of my previous e-mails to the group, I wasn't too sure what this meant. I didn't understand what ...outside of the source directory... meant. I thought if it was truly outside the source directory, then where does it go? Do you know what the source directory is? Do you know what it means to be 'in' a directory? Yes, I know what it means to be 'in' a directory. But do you not see from a newcomers perspective that you seem to use source directory in more ways than one? $LFS/sources and (for example) $LFS/sources/binutils-x.x could BOTH be referred to as source directories. And when you say to build (again for example) the binutils-build directory OUTSIDE of the source directory, that can have more than one meaning. It could mean to build it outside of the $LFS/sources directory OR it could mean to build it outside of the $LFS/sources/binutils-x.x SOURCE directory, So for example, depending on one's interpretation of source directory, the binutils-build directory could be in either: $LFS/sources/binutils-build/OR $LFS/binutils-build/ because the second one would indeed be outside the source directory As it stands, I think it can be confusing when to run things as root and when to run them as lfs user as the book doesn't always say. Yes it does. It's not repeated every page though. Under section 2.3 the very first thing one does (other than version-check.sh in the Preface) is create the file system using the mke2fs command. Where does it say you need to be root for that? I'm just saying maybe not everyone knows that you need to be root in order for that to work. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to simply add two words to clarify on page 15? To create an ext3 file system on the LFS partition, run the following [AS ROOT]: mke2fs -jv /dev/xxx I haven't read the entire book, maybe things change later on, but it seems like you should mention this. Also, I think it can be a little confusing as to what directory I am supposed to be in when running the commands sometimes, as that is very important too. What part of: For each package: 1. Using the tar program, extract the package to be built. In Chapter 5, ensure you are the lfs user when extracting the package. 2. Change to the directory created when the package was extracted. 3. Follow the book's instructions for building the package. do you not understand? Wow, again with the hostility. Let's say hypothetically that I have to uncompress the binutils-x.x file. It may not be immediately obvious where one is supposed to be when issuing the command: mkdir -v ../binutils-build cd ../binutils-build Couldn't the book simply clarify (briefly) where the binutils directory should be to clarify it for new users? Are you guys aware that a fairly substantial number of the web links in the book no longer work? I made a list and tried to send it to lfs-dev, but that was before I realized that I had to join it first, so not sure if anyone received it. You are using a book that was published in September. Links change. It's up to you to find new ones. The books are like RFCs. Once published, we do not change that version. I never said I had a problem downloading packages. But it is good to know (now) that you do not revise released books. I was referring to some homepage links which the lfs-dev list has verified. I also tried e-mailing lfs-support-ow...@linuxfromscratch.org about a week ago to get some help, but never heard back from anyone. That's the mailman internal address. You have the right
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 03:34 -0700, Scott Robertson wrote: Under section 2.3 the very first thing one does (other than version-check.sh in the Preface) is create the file system using the mke2fs command. Where does it say you need to be root for that? I'm just saying maybe not everyone knows that you need to be root in order for that to work. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to simply add two words to clarify on page 15? It might, but see - this is why we emphasise that a certain amount of knowledge is required. We assume that if you're doing an LFS build, you don't need to be told that formatting a partition must be done as root. Please understand - we're not trying to be rude or hostile. We can, and do, make changes to improve the book's instructions, when we find that people are mislead by poor wording or lack of explanation. But well... the instructions you're having difficulty with are ones that many others have been successfully using for many years now. If you're having this much difficulty with them, it does suggest to us that a lack of Linux/Unix experience is a factor. It may not be immediately obvious where one is supposed to be when issuing the command: mkdir -v ../binutils-build cd ../binutils-build Remember the bit change to the directory created when the package was extracted, followed by follow the book's instructions for building the package. That tells you exactly where you should be when running that command. Re-read that page General Compilation Instructions - it really is very, very important, and we've spent an awful lot of effort making those instructions as clear as possible. Simon. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On 04-05-2012 08:23, Eleanore Boyd wrote: On 5/4/2012 5:34 AM, Scott Robertson wrote: [...] Now, have you tried this solution: untar the package, go into the unpacked directory, then do copy+paste operations to make sure you don't inadvertently screw something up? Then all you have to do is make sure you replace certain pieces with the appropriate value for the new system. Tends to work like a charm. (Then again, I have a fascination with progress scrolling up the screen, and progress bars moving...) Elly Scott, Elly is right. Read the printed copy, but copy and paste from the web or from a locally saved copy. You can try to understand everything, but after some machines built, will discover that many things, including commands, variables, configurations, command arguments, were not clear at first sight. With the exception of those who originally built the LFS project from scratch - LFSFS :-), the ones who replied to this thread, myself included, have, at some stage been newcomers to LFS. I had difficulties, but they were exactly due to lack of the required experience. I have always had good support. Eleanore, a high school student working during a computer class and after school on such things as LFS, if I am not mistaken, could even be considered a newcomer, as I only remember her posts since March 2012, although with much better linux background than myself, when newcomer: this is not a shame for me, but it is a honour for her. If we people were rude, you could just be ignored, at least in this thread. But we think that discussion is good and hope you have patience with us, as we have had with you (and others have had with me!). (Mis)quoting what Bruce recently said: try to be on the technical side and remember that faces are not visible in written communication, so a relevant part of information about corporal language is missing, which could be misleading. This is a place for technical discussions, so let us do it peacefully. Finally, thank you for giving this wonderful people the opportunity to show their generous and kind personalities. -- []s, Fernando -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Scott Robertson wrote: What part of: For each package: 1. Using the tar program, extract the package to be built. In Chapter 5, ensure you are the lfs user when extracting the package. 2. Change to the directory created when the package was extracted. 3. Follow the book's instructions for building the package. do you not understand? Wow, again with the hostility. The reason it sounds hostile is because we spend a lot of time trying to explain and users regularly skip the explanations. Whether you skipped reading them or not, your questions indicate that you did not understand them. If you follow the instructions literally, they work. Making inferences and adding things not in the book is where users run into problems. -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On May 4, 2012, at 8:42 AM, Bruce Dubbs wrote: Scott Robertson wrote: What part of: ... do you not understand? Wow, again with the hostility. The reason it sounds hostile is because we spend a lot of time trying to explain and users regularly skip the explanations. Whether you skipped reading them or not, your questions indicate that you did not understand them. If you follow the instructions literally, they work. Making inferences and adding things not in the book is where users run into problems. Easy. :) * * * Scott, please try to understand that LFS is put together by a volunteer corp of programmers and admins, not professional writers. So, there will be parts of the book that are INCREDIBLY important to read, and parts of the book that are more optional in nature. So, try to understand that the point of feedback that sounds like: What part of XYZ don't you understand? is a reminder (though not a particularly nice one) that the problem is likely some assumption you are making, and that much closer attention needs to be paid somewhere--though, in general, that where is not well-marked. That having been said, LFS is a deeply technical project. It's a bit like instructions to build your own particle accelerator, not an Ikea cabinet. Yes, you'll need to read--then reread--every word, and assume that everything is important. * * * LFS devs, writers, and editors, please try to understand that the LFS can read like a list of GPS coordinates given at 1mm spacings without altitude and annotations. If I follow it *exactly*, and assume no errors in the readings or the map, and I make the same set of assumptions as you, then I'll get there. But, if I miss by just a tiny bit, instead of walking along a ridge, I fall off the cliff. Having been around a bit to see users struggle and struggle and struggle with the implied directions in Chapter 5 about unpacking stuff, (esp. when the rest of time you're repeating to people to follow the book VERBATIM), it seems that there could be more warning there. Having said that, I recognize that the editors are professional techies--not professional writers. At least, I hope not. :) If 1 out of every 10 map-users falls off the cliff, is it worth thinking about how to annotate the map instead of insisting that people just stop falling over the cliff? Most of the people who fall over don't seem to be saying the book is wrong (some do, but just have Ken gently accost at those people with obscure classical references...by the time he's done, they'll just think they've been given a Swedish massage in a part of their brain they never knew they had). Does anyone know a technical writer that might be able to offer some time to address that one glaring issue? The message that gets repeated over and over is that LFS is not a distro, but a book. Well, then it's in an interesting category of being both a tech project but also a book. When a written metaphor is weak, we don't usually tell readers to change their mental models (unless you're Joyce); we just get a red pen and write constipated thinking in the margins. Surely there's some room to say that the book needs better writing, even if the instructions are technically correct. Q -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Qrux wrote: LFS devs, writers, and editors, please try to understand that the LFS can read like a list of GPS coordinates given at 1mm spacings without altitude and annotations. If I follow it *exactly*, and assume no errors in the readings or the map, and I make the same set of assumptions as you, then I'll get there. But, if I miss by just a tiny bit, instead of walking along a ridge, I fall off the cliff. Having been around a bit to see users struggle and struggle and struggle with the implied directions in Chapter 5 about unpacking stuff, (esp. when the rest of time you're repeating to people to follow the book VERBATIM), it seems that there could be more warning there. Computers are like that. Get one bit wrong and the whole thing fails. What more do you want? 5.3 gives explicit instructions. 5.4 is binutils and the very first thing is a note to go back and ensure you understand 5.3. What we are not going to do is put on every page: tar -xf package.tar.xz cd package . cd .. rm -rf package package-build The users need to learn to think about what needs to be done, not just copy/paste without understanding. Also some users are just not ready for LFS. Section iv says: Building an LFS system is not a simple task. It requires a certain level of existing knowledge of Unix system administration in order to resolve problems and correctly execute the commands listed. In particular, as an absolute minimum, you should already have the ability to use the command line (shell) to copy or move files and directories, list directory and file contents, and change the current directory. It is also expected that you have a reasonable knowledge of using and installing Linux software. -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On May 4, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Bruce Dubbs wrote: Qrux wrote: LFS devs, writers, and editors, please try to understand that the LFS can read like a list of GPS coordinates given at 1mm spacings without altitude and annotations. If I follow it *exactly*, and assume no errors in the readings or the map, and I make the same set of assumptions as you, then I'll get there. But, if I miss by just a tiny bit, instead of walking along a ridge, I fall off the cliff. Having been around a bit to see users struggle and struggle and struggle with the implied directions in Chapter 5 about unpacking stuff, (esp. when the rest of time you're repeating to people to follow the book VERBATIM), it seems that there could be more warning there. Computers are like that. Get one bit wrong and the whole thing fails. What more do you want? 5.3 gives explicit instructions. 5.4 is binutils and the very first thing is a note to go back and ensure you understand 5.3. What we are not going to do is put on every page: tar -xf package.tar.xz cd package . cd .. rm -rf package package-build Would it be hard to put an unpack_warning entity before each of the Phase 1 builds (all 2 or 3), or even the Phase 2 builds (those same 2 or 3)? It's about signposts. You know. Like the ones with the squiggly road to indicate curves ahead. Yes, speed limits, if rigorous observed will work most of time (though not always, like when HWY 17 was first built, with incorrectly counter-banked turns). So, a bit more information, with a warning sign, can help, when there's a confusing situation. I didn't say the instructions were wrong. I said signposts--or better writing--could be used. Writing means many things. In this case, you seem to be focusing on the words themselves. But what about structure? A little repetition goes a long way. The users need to learn to think about what needs to be done, not just copy/paste without understanding. As a proxy example of ambiguity, do you not see the...confusion...some might experience when in your previous email, you said: If you follow the instructions literally, they work. Making inferences and adding things not in the book is where users run into problems. Think! Don't infer! I'm saying it could use more clarity. You're saying that you're not technically wrong. Those two can exist at the same time. Q -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Qrux qrux@gmail.com wrote: On May 4, 2012, at 8:42 AM, Bruce Dubbs wrote: Scott Robertson wrote: What part of: ... do you not understand? Wow, again with the hostility. The reason it sounds hostile is because we spend a lot of time trying to explain and users regularly skip the explanations. Whether you skipped reading them or not, your questions indicate that you did not understand them. If you follow the instructions literally, they work. Making inferences and adding things not in the book is where users run into problems. Easy. :) * * * Scott, please try to understand that LFS is put together by a volunteer corp of programmers and admins, not professional writers. So, there will be parts of the book that are INCREDIBLY important to read, and parts of the book that are more optional in nature. So, try to understand that the point of feedback that sounds like: What part of XYZ don't you understand? is a reminder (though not a particularly nice one) that the problem is likely some assumption you are making, and that much closer attention needs to be paid somewhere--though, in general, that where is not well-marked. That having been said, LFS is a deeply technical project. It's a bit like instructions to build your own particle accelerator, not an Ikea cabinet. Yes, you'll need to read--then reread--every word, and assume that everything is important. * * * LFS devs, writers, and editors, please try to understand that the LFS can read like a list of GPS coordinates given at 1mm spacings without altitude and annotations. If I follow it *exactly*, and assume no errors in the readings or the map, and I make the same set of assumptions as you, then I'll get there. But, if I miss by just a tiny bit, instead of walking along a ridge, I fall off the cliff. Having been around a bit to see users struggle and struggle and struggle with the implied directions in Chapter 5 about unpacking stuff, (esp. when the rest of time you're repeating to people to follow the book VERBATIM), it seems that there could be more warning there. Having said that, I recognize that the editors are professional techies--not professional writers. At least, I hope not. :) If 1 out of every 10 map-users falls off the cliff, is it worth thinking about how to annotate the map instead of insisting that people just stop falling over the cliff? Most of the people who fall over don't seem to be saying the book is wrong (some do, but just have Ken gently accost at those people with obscure classical references...by the time he's done, they'll just think they've been given a Swedish massage in a part of their brain they never knew they had). Does anyone know a technical writer that might be able to offer some time to address that one glaring issue? The message that gets repeated over and over is that LFS is not a distro, but a book. Well, then it's in an interesting category of being both a tech project but also a book. When a written metaphor is weak, we don't usually tell readers to change their mental models (unless you're Joyce); we just get a red pen and write constipated thinking in the margins. Surely there's some room to say that the book needs better writing, even if the instructions are technically correct. Q @Qrux.Qed: You have said it nicely... you do have a very valid point on how to present the information... -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Qrux wrote: The users need to learn to think about what needs to be done, not just copy/paste without understanding. As a proxy example of ambiguity, do you not see the...confusion...some might experience when in your previous email, you said: If you follow the instructions literally, they work. Making inferences and adding things not in the book is where users run into problems. Think! Don't infer! I'm saying it could use more clarity. You're saying that you're not technically wrong. Those two can exist at the same time. But what you are asking for is more instructions, not more clarity. If we add the unpack instructions for the first 10 packages, someone will complain when they get to package 11. Repetition is not the same as clarity. Section vi. It is also expected that you have a reasonable knowledge of using and installing Linux software.: Section 3.1. Downloaded packages and patches will need to be stored somewhere that is conveniently available throughout the entire build. A working directory is also required to unpack the sources and build them. $LFS/sources can be used both as the place to store the tarballs and patches and as a working directory. Section 5.3. General Compilation Instructions For each package: Using the tar program, extract the package to be built. In Chapter 5, ensure you are the lfs user when extracting the package. Change to the directory created when the package was extracted. How do we clarify that? Repeat it for every package? If there is something unclear, I'll change it, but I can't read it for the users. We did add to 5.4: Go back and re-read the notes in the previous section. Understanding the notes labeled important will save you a lot of problems later. Note that we did add a similar note to 5.5. GCC-4.7.0 - Pass 1. -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On May 4, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Bruce Dubbs wrote: Qrux wrote: The users need to learn to think about what needs to be done, not just copy/paste without understanding. As a proxy example of ambiguity, do you not see the...confusion...some might experience when in your previous email, you said: If you follow the instructions literally, they work. Making inferences and adding things not in the book is where users run into problems. Think! Don't infer! I'm saying it could use more clarity. You're saying that you're not technically wrong. Those two can exist at the same time. But what you are asking for is more instructions, not more clarity. I said several things. The first is that there is some potential for ambiguity in statements like: Think, but don't infer. Then, as a practical approach, I suggested repetition--after I suggested more signposts that warn of potential pitfalls. Don't latch on. It was just an example. You seem to be entrenched in the idea that if you need signposts, you're (careless|stupid|lazy). That's not always the case. One solution is to keep saying: Reread Section 5. I'm exploring other solutions, because I think it's silly to insist that the book is well-written when, for every single release, many people are confused by how to begin Chapter 5. I didn't have an issue. But I can certainly understand how others might. Section vi. It is also expected that you have a reasonable knowledge of using and installing Linux software.: Section 3.1. Downloaded packages and patches will need to be stored somewhere that is conveniently available throughout the entire build. A working directory is also required to unpack the sources and build them. $LFS/sources can be used both as the place to store the tarballs and patches and as a working directory. Section 5.3. General Compilation Instructions For each package: Using the tar program, extract the package to be built. In Chapter 5, ensure you are the lfs user when extracting the package. Change to the directory created when the package was extracted. How do we clarify that? Repeat it for every package? If there is something unclear, I'll change it, but I can't read it for the users. If you always have the same issue at the same point in the book, you might come to the conclusion that it's a hard part, and only (careful|smart|hard-working) people will understand. You could also conclude that it's a confusing part (perhaps also hard), and while we need people to be able to read, we can also provide a warning here that highlights the relative importance of this statement. The point is, there is plenty of prose in the book. I could completely skip every word of Section i, Section ii, Section iii, Section iv, and Section v, and successfully build the book. In fact, I've done exactly that, and had no issue. But, then, you want me to read Section vi and take it as gospel? Are you starting to understand what I mean about signposts? There is nothing special about the appearance of Section iv. Do you see how that might relate to organization of the information, and not the content? We did add to 5.4: Go back and re-read the notes in the previous section. Understanding the notes labeled important will save you a lot of problems later. And, while the unpacking instructions in 5.3 are indeed marked as important, do you also see that Sections 5.1 and 5.2 are completely irrelevant to the explicit directions? You know how some text books often have sections which are only meant to be read in an advanced course? Well, 5.2 is exactly like that. But, why strew information all across the book? Chapter 5 is the backbone to the entire thing. But it starts with a somewhat irrelevant section (5.1), and an advanced section (5.2). Then, you want people to know that the Important part of (5.3) is *actually* important? Here's something Important from 5.2: Before continuing, be aware of the name of the working platform, often referred to as the target triplet. A simple way to determine the name of the target triplet is to run the config.guess script that comes with the source for many packages. Unpack the Binutils sources and run the script: ./config.guess and note the output. For example, for a modern 32-bit Intel processor the output will likely be i686-pc-linux-gnu. Also be aware of the name of the platform's dynamic linker, often referred to as the dynamic loader (not to be confused with the standard linker ld that is part of Binutils). The dynamic linker provided by Glibc finds and loads the shared libraries needed by a program, prepares the program to run, and then runs it. The name of the dynamic linker for a 32-bit Intel machine will be ld-linux.so.2. A sure-fire way to determine the name of the dynamic linker is to inspect a random binary from the host system by running: readelf -l name of binary | grep
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On 5/4/2012 4:45 PM, Qrux wrote: On May 4, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Bruce Dubbs wrote: Qrux wrote: The users need to learn to think about what needs to be done, not just copy/paste without understanding. As a proxy example of ambiguity, do you not see the...confusion...some might experience when in your previous email, you said: If you follow the instructions literally, they work. Making inferences and adding things not in the book is where users run into problems. Think! Don't infer! I'm saying it could use more clarity. You're saying that you're not technically wrong. Those two can exist at the same time. But what you are asking for is more instructions, not more clarity. I said several things. The first is that there is some potential for ambiguity in statements like: Think, but don't infer. Then, as a practical approach, I suggested repetition--after I suggested more signposts that warn of potential pitfalls. Don't latch on. It was just an example. You seem to be entrenched in the idea that if you need signposts, you're (careless|stupid|lazy). That's not always the case. One solution is to keep saying: Reread Section 5. I'm exploring other solutions, because I think it's silly to insist that the book is well-written when, for every single release, many people are confused by how to begin Chapter 5. I didn't have an issue. But I can certainly understand how others might. Section vi. It is also expected that you have a reasonable knowledge of using and installing Linux software.: Section 3.1. Downloaded packages and patches will need to be stored somewhere that is conveniently available throughout the entire build. A working directory is also required to unpack the sources and build them. $LFS/sources can be used both as the place to store the tarballs and patches and as a working directory. Section 5.3. General Compilation Instructions For each package: Using the tar program, extract the package to be built. In Chapter 5, ensure you are the lfs user when extracting the package. Change to the directory created when the package was extracted. How do we clarify that? Repeat it for every package? If there is something unclear, I'll change it, but I can't read it for the users. If you always have the same issue at the same point in the book, you might come to the conclusion that it's a hard part, and only (careful|smart|hard-working) people will understand. You could also conclude that it's a confusing part (perhaps also hard), and while we need people to be able to read, we can also provide a warning here that highlights the relative importance of this statement. The point is, there is plenty of prose in the book. I could completely skip every word of Section i, Section ii, Section iii, Section iv, and Section v, and successfully build the book. In fact, I've done exactly that, and had no issue. But, then, you want me to read Section vi and take it as gospel? Are you starting to understand what I mean about signposts? There is nothing special about the appearance of Section iv. Do you see how that might relate to organization of the information, and not the content? We did add to 5.4: Go back and re-read the notes in the previous section. Understanding the notes labeled important will save you a lot of problems later. And, while the unpacking instructions in 5.3 are indeed marked as important, do you also see that Sections 5.1 and 5.2 are completely irrelevant to the explicit directions? You know how some text books often have sections which are only meant to be read in an advanced course? Well, 5.2 is exactly like that. But, why strew information all across the book? Chapter 5 is the backbone to the entire thing. But it starts with a somewhat irrelevant section (5.1), and an advanced section (5.2). Then, you want people to know that the Important part of (5.3) is *actually* important? Here's something Important from 5.2: Before continuing, be aware of the name of the working platform, often referred to as the target triplet. A simple way to determine the name of the target triplet is to run the config.guess script that comes with the source for many packages. Unpack the Binutils sources and run the script: ./config.guess and note the output. For example, for a modern 32-bit Intel processor the output will likely be i686-pc-linux-gnu. Also be aware of the name of the platform's dynamic linker, often referred to as the dynamic loader (not to be confused with the standard linker ld that is part of Binutils). The dynamic linker provided by Glibc finds and loads the shared libraries needed by a program, prepares the program to run, and then runs it. The name of the dynamic linker for a 32-bit Intel machine will be ld-linux.so.2. A sure-fire way to determine the name of the dynamic linker is to inspect a random binary from the host system
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Qrux wrote: One solution is to keep saying: Reread Section 5. 5.3? I'm exploring other solutions, because I think it's silly to insist that the book is well-written when, for every single release, many people are confused by how to begin Chapter 5. I didn't have an issue. But I can certainly understand how others might. The problem is that some users are trying to build LFS before they have sufficient background. You obviously do have the background, but it's not appropriate for others who have basically never used a shell to start LFS until they have developed more experience. The first clue is when users refer to folders instead of directories. If you always have the same issue at the same point in the book, you might come to the conclusion that it's a hard part, and only (careful|smart|hard-working) people will understand. You could also conclude that it's a confusing part (perhaps also hard), and while we need people to be able to read, we can also provide a warning here that highlights the relative importance of this statement. The point is, there is plenty of prose in the book. I could completely skip every word of Section i, Section ii, Section iii, Section iv, and Section v, and successfully build the book. In fact, I've done exactly that, and had no issue. Yes, you could, but as I said, you have the appropriate background. I think everyone needs to read vi and vii. But, then, you want me to read Section vi and take it as gospel? Are you starting to understand what I mean about signposts? There is nothing special about the appearance of Section iv. Do you see how that might relate to organization of the information, and not the content? Speaking of understanding, what does that mean? We did add to 5.4: Go back and re-read the notes in the previous section. Understanding the notes labeled important will save you a lot of problems later. And, while the unpacking instructions in 5.3 are indeed marked as important, do you also see that Sections 5.1 and 5.2 are completely irrelevant to the explicit directions? You know how some text books often have sections which are only meant to be read in an advanced course? Well, 5.2 is exactly like that. But, why strew information all across the book? Chapter 5 is the backbone to the entire thing. But it starts with a somewhat irrelevant section (5.1), and an advanced section (5.2). Then, you want people to know that the Important part of (5.3) is *actually* important? Here's something Important from 5.2: [deleted quote] I can agree that the section of 5.2 could be changed to a note. There are 3 important sections in chapter 5, and 6 in chapter 6. I'd argue that it's not important at all. Maybe to someone who's taking LFS and working on a derivative work. Or to someone who's messing about with the toolchain. But, put simply: it's pretty hard to separate the complete irrelevance of 5.2-Important from the absolute necessity of 5.3-Important. This is an issue of poorly structured book organization--not the information intended to be conveyed in the book. Is the extent of the changes you think are needed to just relabel one section? -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On May 4, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Bruce Dubbs wrote: But, why strew information all across the book? Chapter 5 is the backbone to the entire thing. But it starts with a somewhat irrelevant section (5.1), and an advanced section (5.2). Then, you want people to know that the Important part of (5.3) is *actually* important? Here's something Important from 5.2: [deleted quote] I can agree that the section of 5.2 could be changed to a note. There are 3 important sections in chapter 5, and 6 in chapter 6. I'd argue that it's not important at all. Maybe to someone who's taking LFS and working on a derivative work. Or to someone who's messing about with the toolchain. But, put simply: it's pretty hard to separate the complete irrelevance of 5.2-Important from the absolute necessity of 5.3-Important. This is an issue of poorly structured book organization--not the information intended to be conveyed in the book. Is the extent of the changes you think are needed to just relabel one section? If LFS is just a source code project, then to some extent you can say that prose style or organization is irrelevant. It's not, because it's often repeated that it's a book, as well. So, style is important, because organization can aid understanding. Which is to say, I think you missed my point about Sections (i) through (v). I didn't say (vi) or (vii), which I agree are more important, if not misplaced. But, (i) through (v) are pretty much irrelevant to a user. Why not just start at (vi)? Sure, the original creator should get a foreword, but then jump to the stuff that matters. Then, go straight into the build bits. All the motivation stuff--which, while fine for the start, should not be in the same (section|chapter) whatever as the irrelevant information. That should be canned into an appendix, or the *actually* important bits (e.g. vi and vii) moved into a different part of the book. As for the rest of what I said, sure...you could boil it down to: * Get rid of 5.1 and 5.2, or maybe move them into 4.x as a footnote. * The start of 5 should be: You'd better start paying attention, right the frak now. * Followed immediately by Important FOR USERS: Here's how to unpack stuff...blah blah blah So, yes, you could take what I've said and do some minor edits, but that feels like CSS decorating a web page. Alternatively, you could consider making changes to the organization of the book as it impacts readability. Traditionally, editors do that. In this case, you and Matt are more the technical reviewers. I assume that neither of you are writers...If so, then I apologize, but I still stand by my analysis. I'm saying the organization of the prose bits needs work. Which is different from Well, dude--spit it out. You want the red to be redder and the 'Important' to be a larger point-size? which seems to be more of what you're after. Q -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Qrux wrote: If LFS is just a source code project, then to some extent you can say that prose style or organization is irrelevant. It's not, because it's often repeated that it's a book, as well. So, style is important, because organization can aid understanding. The descriptions and the organization is important, but it satisfies most users. We probably go through this discussion two are three time a year. Each time it's a single user that doesn't quite get it (you got it without problem). Since we have over 23000 registered users, I'd say that the vast majority get value from the book as it is. I'm not willing to make major changes for a vocal few. We will have to agree to disagree and move on. -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: Qrux wrote: If LFS is just a source code project, then to some extent you can say that prose style or organization is irrelevant. It's not, because it's often repeated that it's a book, as well. So, style is important, because organization can aid understanding. The descriptions and the organization is important, but it satisfies most users. We probably go through this discussion two are three time a year. Each time it's a single user that doesn't quite get it (you got it without problem). Since we have over 23000 registered users, I'd say that the vast majority get value from the book as it is. I'm not willing to make major changes for a vocal few. We will have to agree to disagree and move on. Just because not many emails or voices out their opinion(s) like @Qrux has done, doesn't mean that they get it. They may not be able to put forth their thoughts like @Qrux has done. LFS is a fantastic resource, but like @Qrux is saying, there is room for improvement to make it even better. If some information on how to contribute in terms of improving the content or presentation style in the How to contribute (http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/contribute.html) page will be helpful and I would like to pitch in whatever ways I can. cheers... -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Anand Arumugam anand.aru...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: Qrux wrote: If LFS is just a source code project, then to some extent you can say that prose style or organization is irrelevant. It's not, because it's often repeated that it's a book, as well. So, style is important, because organization can aid understanding. The descriptions and the organization is important, but it satisfies most users. We probably go through this discussion two are three time a year. Each time it's a single user that doesn't quite get it (you got it without problem). Since we have over 23000 registered users, I'd say that the vast majority get value from the book as it is. I'm not willing to make major changes for a vocal few. We will have to agree to disagree and move on. Just because not many emails or voices out their opinion(s) like @Qrux has done, doesn't mean that they get it. They may not be able to put forth their thoughts like @Qrux has done. LFS is a fantastic resource, but like @Qrux is saying, there is room for improvement to make it even better. If some information on how to contribute in terms of improving the content or presentation style in the How to contribute (http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/contribute.html) page will be helpful and I would like to pitch in whatever ways I can. cheers... -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page Before deciding how to change the book, shouldn't contributors be clear about (a) the purpose and (b) the audience of the book? It seems to me that there is a mismatch here: people have different views about the audience and purpose, so differ in their perceptions of the book. In my perception the book currently assumes that the audience is people with some (considerable) understanding of the command-line, and OS concepts in general (for example the fact that 'source directory' might have different meanings depending on context). If that is to remain the audience, there needs to be a method for coping with people outside the audience who happen to wander in - just as my local bar has a procedure for dealing with under-age people who wander in. And the purpose of the book (again, my perception) is educational, so the explanations about the tool-chain modifications and how cross-compilation works are not extras, but an integral part of the book. The aim is to learn, not just to get to the end. What that coping procedure should be is a second debate. Slainte Gordon -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Thu, 03 May 2012 16:52, Scott Robertson wrote: Hello, Can someone explain what the directory structure is supposed to look like in Chapter 5? 1. Where does the Binutils folder/directory go? Where does the GCC folder go? That's all the further I have gotten so far. I think I will probably want to know where all the folders go. I created a separate partition for LFS, and put the folders there, is that right, or not? Or is it supposed to go into the /mnt/lfs folder? Or somewhere else? At Chapter 3.1 Packages and Patchws Introduction. $LFS/sources can be used both as the place to store the tarballs and patches and as a working directory. By using this directory, the required elements will be located on the LFS partition and will be available during all stages of the building process. To create this directory, execute the following command, as user root, before starting the download session: mkdir -v $LFS/sources and At Chapter 5.3 General Compilation Instructions Important To re-emphasize the build process: 1. Place all the sources and patches in a directory that will be accessible from the chroot environment such as /mnt/lfs/sources/. Do not put sources in /mnt/lfs/tools/. 2. Change to the sources directory. 3. For each package: 1.Using the tar program, extract the package to be built. In Chapter 5, ensure you are the lfs user when extracting the package. 2.Change to the directory created when the package was extracted. 3. Follow the book's instructions for building the package. 4.Change back to the sources directory. 5.Delete the extracted source directory and any package-build directories that were created in the build process unless instructed otherwise. 2. Can someone also explain permissions? Who is supposed to have permissions on what? What permissions are supposed to be on the Binutils and GCC directories? root? lfs? And what are they supposed to be? read, write and execute? At Chapter 4.3 Adding thge LFS User When logged in as user root, making a single mistake can damage or destroy a system. Therefore, we recommend building the packages in this chapter as an unprivileged user. You could use your own user name, but to make it easier to set up a clean working environment, create a new user called lfs as a member of a new group (also named lfs) and use this user during the installation process. As root, issue the following commands to add the new user: At Chapter 4.4 Setting up the Environment Setting the user file-creation mask (umask) to 022 ensures that newly created files and directories are only writable by their owner, but are readable and executable by anyone (assuming default modes are used by the open(2) system call, new files will end up with permission mode 644 and directories with mode 755). 3. What directory am I supposed to be in when I execute the commands? As I said, I have an LFS partition, so am I supposed to be in /media/LFS? Or more like /mnt/lfs? Or somewhere else? See answer above or to spell it out: $LFS/sources/binutils-x.xx 4. Also, what does the two dots and slash mean? ../(some command) How does that factor into it? On Thu, 03 May 2012 18:39, Scott Robertson wrote: 1) I don't think that is true. The manual contradicts itself. On the one hand it tells you to put stuff in $LFS/tools, but then it specifically recommends NOT putting things in there during the initial compilation process. It also tells people to create an LFS partition and suggests that it be used, but doesn't say how or when (at least as far as I've gotten). It also seems to contradict itself by telling people to uncompress the tar.bz2 files, but then proceeds as if they were not uncompressed, so clearly there are some contradictory logic errors in the manual. It clearly says that the COMPILED programes go into $LFS/tools at 4.2 Creating the $LFS/tools directory: All programs compiled in Chapter 5 will be installed under $LFS/tools to keep them separate from the programs compiled in Chapter 6. The programs compiled here are temporary tools and will not be a part of the final LFS system. By keeping these programs in a separate directory, they can easily be discarded later after their use. This also prevents these programs from ending up in the host production directories (easy to do by accident in Chapter 5). In 5.3 General Compilation Instructions: Place all the sources and patches in a directory that will be accessible from the chroot environment such as /mnt/lfs/sources/. Do not put sources in /mnt/lfs/tools/. This is not a contradiction. ..sending me 4 unhelpful e-mails Dont know where you get the 4 messages from ... I only sent 2 but both were addressed to you personally and the list. This is a standard practice with list server mail which I believe is to
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
--- Em qui, 3/5/12, Scott Robertson escreveu:
De: Scott Robertson
Assunto: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Para: lfs-support lfs-support@...
Data: Quinta-feira, 3 de Maio de 2012, 1:53
Hello,
Can someone explain what the directory structure is supposed
to look like in Chapter 5?
1. Where does the Binutils folder/directory go? Where does
the GCC folder go? That's all the further I have gotten so
far. I think I will probably want to know where all the
folders go. I created a separate partition for LFS, and
put the folders there, is that right, or not?
Or is it supposed to go into the /mnt/lfs folder? Or
somewhere else?
The separate partition for LFS is supposed to be mount at /mnt/lfs, by default.
You can always change, but why? It is easear using that:
So, in Chapter 2.4:
Quote
export LFS=/mnt/lfs
Next, create the mount point and mount the LFS file system by running:
mkdir -pv $LFS
mount -v -t ext3 /dev/xxx $LFS
Replace xxx with the designation of the LFS partition./UnQuote
In chapter 5, you are building tools in $LFS/tools directory. Everything
should be owned by lfs user: $LFS/{tools,source}/{,*}, to avoid the risk of
braking the host system when issuing commands which are dangerous as root.
So, You should not have /media/LFS, but /mnt/lfs.
[]s,
Fernando
--
http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support
FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html
Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Forgot to mention: You might thank Philippe Delavalade and Tony Sauri, as they are trying to be helpful with good correct information they have written to you. In the beginning, we all have these doubts, some find their own way through and this list has volunteers who are part of LFS/BLFS books others not, non if them is being paid to help others. The book has great consistency, many build it using tools which automatize the build process, which fail at the minimum inconsistency. Welcome to the list and hope, after some initial difficulties, you will enjoy this book. []s, Fernando -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On 5/3/2012 1:40 AM, Scott Robertson wrote: (snip) 2) Why are you here if you aren't going to be of any help? I'm not coming here with no experience with Linux. I've also noticed several problems with the manual, so clearly this is a work in progress. You, Tony, apparently can't even be bothered to get it right yourself the first time...sending me 4 unhelpful e-mails only to say you won't help. (snip) To repeat what others might or might not have said, WE CAN'T HELP if you're going to ask a question, then turn around and say that our answer is wrong. We don't care if you have prior experience in Linux; if you ask questions like that, you're going to sound like a beginner. And, to me at least, if you're going to complain about this being a work in progress, get out of Linux. The whole thing is nothing more than a work in progress. Even Windows is a work in progress, if you want to argue. Now, either FOLLOW the book EXACTLY, or go somewhere else. Elly -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Ahh, ok, yes thank you, that is more what I am looking for. So you can have the Binutils-xx AND Binutils-build in the same /mnt/lfs/sources directory. I know everyone disagrees with me, but I still think that isn't clear given that quote on page 35 recommending that Binutils be built outside the sources directory. But maybe it is just a wording issue. I guess in essence, there are two sources directories: /mnt/lfs/sources AND /mnt/lfs/sources/Binutils-xx So the GCC directory is similar in that it goes in /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x is that right? I don't think the book explicitly says it, but I guess you are supposed to uncompress the GCC-4.x tar file into the GCC-4.x directory first, right? And then the GMP, MPFR and MPC packages go into the GCC-4.x directory? So the folder structure would be: /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x/ /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x/GMP /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x/MPFR /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x/MPC and then you put the gcc-4.x-cross_compile-1.patch into the /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x directory right? Then you create the GCC-Build directory. So that would be /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-Build so you would have: /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x and /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-Build is that right? - Original Message - From: Philippe Delavalade philippe.delaval...@orange.fr To: Scott Robertson scottrobertso...@yahoo.com Cc: lfs-support@linuxfromscratch.org Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 4:20 AM Subject: Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions Le jeudi 03 mai à 09:47, Scott Robertson a écrit : Page 35 of the book specifically says: The Binutils documentation recommends building Binutils outside of the source directory in a dedicated build directory: mkdir -v ../binutils-build cd ../binutils-build Should I just disregard that and put it inside the sources directory? If I follow the directions, I am not supposed to put the binutils-build directory inside the sources directory? If I don't put it in the sources directory, then where is the binutils-build directory supposed to go? Can someone explain what the full path is supposed to be? Is it supposed to be /mnt/lfs/sources/binutils-build or something else? Is the binutils-build directory inside the lfs/sources directory or outside of it? Well, first, reply on the list and don't top post. For your question, there is a general sources directory : $LFS/sources ; and each package has is own source directory, the one obtained when untaring. So, for binutils, you have the file binutils-xx.tar.bz2 in $LFS/sources ; after tar -xvf binutils-xx.tar.bz2 you obtain a subdirectory binustils-xx in which you enter ; you are in $LFS/sources/binutils-xx which is the source directory for binutils ; then you create ../binutils-build which is in $LFS/sources ; then cd ../binutils-build and you are in $LFS/sources/binutils-build. And so on. In $LFS/sources you have the two directories binutils-xx and binutils-build. When binutils is built, you go in £LFS/sources with cd .. and then you have to delete those two directories with rm -vfr binutils-xx and rm -vfr binutils-build ; the 'f' is possibly unmandatory. I hope I'm clear but English is not my native language :-) -- Ph. Delavalade -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Please, make sure you are reading the latest stable LFS7.1: Stable LFS Errata: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/errata/stable Stable LFS: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/ Below, reproduced from General Compilation Instructions of Chapter 5, which can found in: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/chapter05/generalinstructions.html read Important: Quote[...] Finally, one last important item must be emphasized: Important Before issuing the build instructions for a package, the package should be unpacked as user lfs, and a cd into the created directory should be performed. The build instructions assume that the bash shell is in use./UnQuote This is just for building the tools. In next chapter, there are other instructions. Most respectfully, some advice follows. This book has been tested by many people, users and developers, for many years. Of course, there might be flaws, but not so many. When we start first time, the great amount of information is difficult to keep in mind and re-reading is essential, otherwise the time wasted will be enourmous. []'s Fernando -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Le jeudi 03 mai à 15:16, Scott Robertson a écrit : Ahh, ok, yes thank you, that is more what I am looking for. So you can have the Binutils-xx AND Binutils-build in the same /mnt/lfs/sources directory. I know everyone disagrees with me, but I still think that isn't clear given that quote on page 35 recommending that Binutils be built outside the sources directory. But maybe it is just a wording issue. I guess in essence, there are two sources directories: /mnt/lfs/sources AND /mnt/lfs/sources/Binutils-xx So the GCC directory is similar in that it goes in /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x is that right? I don't think the book explicitly says it, but I guess you are supposed to uncompress the GCC-4.x tar file into the GCC-4.x directory first, right? And then the GMP, MPFR and MPC packages go into the GCC-4.x directory? So the folder structure would be: /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x/ Yes and this will repeat for every package in chapter 5 and then in chapter 6. /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x/GMP /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x/MPFR /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x/MPC Thats' right but you should have understood this by reading the commands :-) and then you put the gcc-4.x-cross_compile-1.patch into the /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x directory right? No. Use the patch if it is required by the book (I think it's not the case now but I'm not sure because I don't know what version of the book your are following). Nevertheles, when a patch is needed, you have not to copy it in the source directory of the package. Then you create the GCC-Build directory. So that would be /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-Build so you would have: /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x and /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-Build is that right? Yes except that case is sensitive and that it is gcc and not GCC, gcc-build and not GCC-Build. -- Ph. Delavalade -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 04:15:57PM +0200, Philippe Delavalade wrote: Le jeudi 03 mai à 15:16, Scott Robertson a écrit : So the GCC directory is similar in that it goes in /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x is that right? I don't think the book explicitly says it, but I guess you are supposed to uncompress the GCC-4.x tar file into the GCC-4.x directory first, right? And then the GMP, MPFR and MPC packages go into the GCC-4.x directory? So the folder structure would be: /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x/ Yes and this will repeat for every package in chapter 5 and then in chapter 6. Actually, the phrase 'uncompress the GCC-4.x tar file into the GCC-4.x directory' can be interpreted in more than one way. Scott probably meant it correctly, but just in case - you should be in /mnt/lfs/sources and extract the tarball there (tar -xvf for any recent version of tar), do NOT first create a directory - probably wouldn't cause any damage, but would be unnecessary. Also note that I'm suggesting tar -xvf because sometimes the directory name might not be exactly the same as the tarball name. ĸen -- das eine Mal als Tragödie, das andere Mal als Farce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Scott Robertson wrote: 1) I don't think that is true. The manual contradicts itself. On the one hand it tells you to put stuff in $LFS/tools, but then it specifically recommends NOT putting things in there during the initial compilation process. It also tells people to create an LFS partition and suggests that it be used, but doesn't say how or when (at least as far as I've gotten). It also seems to contradict itself by telling people to uncompress the tar.bz2 files, but then proceeds as if they were not uncompressed, so clearly there are some contradictory logic errors in the manual. Have you read section 5.3? Is there something there you don't understand? -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Hi, You are one of the main guys, right? I think I am going to have to re-read some things. I downloaded the 7.0 PDF before 7.1 came out and actually printed it out (7.0) so I am kind of locked into 7.0 as I don't want to print out the whole 7.1, but I am trying to check it as well. I started reading 7.0, and I was doing OK until about Chapter 5. Until I realized that some of my directories didn't seem right. Somehow I ended up with just a sources directory on the LFS partition. I'm not a hardened expert in Linux yet, but I do have some knowledge and I have alot of experience with computers in general. Am I required to be an expert to do this? This is my first attempt at LFS. I am trying to learn Linux at a deeper level. I think I have a fair understanding of things, except for a few things. As I said, I have a sources directory on the LFS partition that I created, but I don't have a /lfs/tools directory there, so i got a little confused. I am basically trying to figure out what directory structure I am supposed to have without the $LFS. I could be wrong, but I don't get the feeling that the book explains precisely what the directory structure is supposed look like by the time you get through with 5.4 or so. I guess what threw me was in Section 5.4, it says: The Binutils documentation recommends building Binutils outside of the source directory in a dedicated build directory: As I mentioned in one of my previous e-mails to the group, I wasn't too sure what this meant. I didn't understand what ...outside of the source directory... meant. I thought if it was truly outside the source directory, then where does it go? But I think I realize now that Binutils-xx is called a source directory and /lfs/sources is also called a sources directory. And again, if it is truly outside the source directory, then there might be permissions problems. As it stands, I think it can be confusing when to run things as root and when to run them as lfs user as the book doesn't always say. I can generally figure it our based on the error messages though. Also, I think it can be a little confusing as to what directory I am supposed to be in when running the commands sometimes, as that is very important too. Changing course: Are you guys aware that a fairly substantial number of the web links in the book no longer work? I made a list and tried to send it to lfs-dev, but that was before I realized that I had to join it first, so not sure if anyone received it. I also tried e-mailing lfs-support-ow...@linuxfromscratch.org about a week ago to get some help, but never heard back from anyone. I guess maybe that e-mail address isn't monitored. I tried proceeding without help, but came up against a wall. As a last ditch effort, I e-mailed Gerard Beekmans personally and he told me to sign up for the lfs-support list, which is where I am at now. I think I am used to a more traditional Sign up for a login account, login, and then post to a forum format rather than people e-mailing each other, but I think I am getting the idea now. -Scott - Original Message - From: Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com To: LFS Support List lfs-support@linuxfromscratch.org Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions Scott Robertson wrote: 1) I don't think that is true. The manual contradicts itself. On the one hand it tells you to put stuff in $LFS/tools, but then it specifically recommends NOT putting things in there during the initial compilation process. It also tells people to create an LFS partition and suggests that it be used, but doesn't say how or when (at least as far as I've gotten). It also seems to contradict itself by telling people to uncompress the tar.bz2 files, but then proceeds as if they were not uncompressed, so clearly there are some contradictory logic errors in the manual. Have you read section 5.3? Is there something there you don't understand? -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Yes, thanks for clearing that up. The packages are (as far as I can tell) all compressed with either a bz2 or gz extension, which means they are compressed. They are also tar'd, but it is my understanding that tar isn't a compressed format. So I think technically they have to be uncompressed and then untar'd, although that happens at the same time and almost instantly. I also know not to actually create the directory first. I am also aware that everything is case sensitive, if I am referring to things in a case-insensitive way, rest assured I am aware that the case(s) may change. - Original Message - From: Ken Moffat k...@linuxfromscratch.org To: LFS Support List lfs-support@linuxfromscratch.org Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 04:15:57PM +0200, Philippe Delavalade wrote: Le jeudi 03 mai à 15:16, Scott Robertson a écrit : So the GCC directory is similar in that it goes in /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x is that right? I don't think the book explicitly says it, but I guess you are supposed to uncompress the GCC-4.x tar file into the GCC-4.x directory first, right? And then the GMP, MPFR and MPC packages go into the GCC-4.x directory? So the folder structure would be: /mnt/lfs/sources/GCC-4.x/ Yes and this will repeat for every package in chapter 5 and then in chapter 6. Actually, the phrase 'uncompress the GCC-4.x tar file into the GCC-4.x directory' can be interpreted in more than one way. Scott probably meant it correctly, but just in case - you should be in /mnt/lfs/sources and extract the tarball there (tar -xvf for any recent version of tar), do NOT first create a directory - probably wouldn't cause any damage, but would be unnecessary. Also note that I'm suggesting tar -xvf because sometimes the directory name might not be exactly the same as the tarball name. ĸen -- das eine Mal als Tragödie, das andere Mal als Farce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Scott Robertson wrote: Please don't top post on the LFS lists. I started reading 7.0, and I was doing OK until about Chapter 5. Until I realized that some of my directories didn't seem right. Somehow I ended up with just a sources directory on the LFS partition. I'm not a hardened expert in Linux yet, but I do have some knowledge and I have alot of experience with computers in general. Am I required to be an expert to do this? This is my first attempt at LFS. I am trying to learn Linux at a deeper level. We try to give you a vehicle for learning. I think I have a fair understanding of things, except for a few things. As I said, I have a sources directory on the LFS partition that I created, but I don't have a /lfs/tools directory there, so i got a little confused. Section 2.3 tells you how to format a new partition. At the end of section 2.4 you should only have /mnt/lfs/lost+found/ Section 3.1 creates $LFS/sources and shows you how to populate it. Be sure to read the 2nd paragraph if you are using 7.0 because urls change. Section 4.2 creates mkdir -v $LFS/tools Section 5.3 gives the overview of what you are going to do to build the packages. I am basically trying to figure out what directory structure I am supposed to have without the $LFS. I could be wrong, but I don't get the feeling that the book explains precisely what the directory structure is supposed look like by the time you get through with 5.4 or so. That's probably because you don't really have much of a Linux background. It appears to me from your basic questions that you need some experience as expressed in section vi. Prerequisites. (we know that the middle link is dead). Try https://www.linux.com/learn/new-user-guides instead. I guess what threw me was in Section 5.4, it says: The Binutils documentation recommends building Binutils outside of the source directory in a dedicated build directory: As I mentioned in one of my previous e-mails to the group, I wasn't too sure what this meant. I didn't understand what ...outside of the source directory... meant. I thought if it was truly outside the source directory, then where does it go? Do you know what the source directory is? Do you know what it means to be 'in' a directory? But I think I realize now that Binutils-xx is called a source directory and /lfs/sources is also called a sources directory. And again, if it is truly outside the source directory, then there might be permissions problems. As it stands, I think it can be confusing when to run things as root and when to run them as lfs user as the book doesn't always say. Yes it does. It's not repeated every page though. I can generally figure it our based on the error messages though. Also, I think it can be a little confusing as to what directory I am supposed to be in when running the commands sometimes, as that is very important too. What part of: For each package: 1. Using the tar program, extract the package to be built. In Chapter 5, ensure you are the lfs user when extracting the package. 2. Change to the directory created when the package was extracted. 3. Follow the book's instructions for building the package. do you not understand? Are you guys aware that a fairly substantial number of the web links in the book no longer work? I made a list and tried to send it to lfs-dev, but that was before I realized that I had to join it first, so not sure if anyone received it. You are using a book that was published in September. Links change. It's up to you to find new ones. The books are like RFCs. Once published, we do not change that version. I also tried e-mailing lfs-support-ow...@linuxfromscratch.org about a week ago to get some help, but never heard back from anyone. That's the mailman internal address. You have the right address now. I think I am used to a more traditional Sign up for a login account, login, and then post to a forum format rather than people e-mailing each other, but I think I am getting the idea now. http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/mail.html gives the mailing lists and links to where you need to go to sign up. -- Bruce -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com wrote: Scott Robertson wrote: I think I have a fair understanding of things, except for a few things. As I said, I have a sources directory on the LFS partition that I created, but I don't have a /lfs/tools directory there, so i got a little confused. ... [ and there was other stuff about directories ] ... The book talks about $LFS/sources or $LFS/tools and such. This is a more formalized way to reference those directories because the value of the LFS environment variable may vary, as long as that value is used consistently throughout a build. LFS users on the mailing lists talk about /mnt/lfs/sources and such. This is like simplifying to the de facto standard. The specific path /mnt/lfs is understood to be whatever you named your top-level build directory. So just remember that the discussions on the mailing lists sometimes elaborate the value of the LFS environment variable. Confusion about what the book is describing is one thing. But during the first pass (or two or three) through the LFS book, it is a good idea to follow the instructions to the letter. At least until you feel confident with the process. The LFS project has been around since 1999. Over-thinking the instructions at this stage of the project's maturity should only be done by professionals. Or at least only the LFS devs. ;) Just use the recommended values from the book. Read the book carefully but don't over-think it. Stick to the one version. Ask one question at a time. -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Fri, 04 May 2012 01:26, Scott Robertson wrote: No hard feelings mate? None here and no offence taken at anty time. I am really pleased to see that you now understand the directory structure and by now should be weel on the way with the Chapter 5 compiles. To give you a little forwarning of the areas where things can go wrong you may like to consider the following: A) Host System Requirements: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/prologue/hostreqs.html If in your haste to start the LFS Build you skipped this section I urge you to pause your activity and run the version-check.sh script. If your system is not fully compatable some issues can (will) emerge as you progress through the build. B) 6.4. Entering the Chroot Environment http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/chapter06/chroot.html On this page you will find an important note on the precautions to take if you have to interrupt your build and exit the chroot for any reason such as a system reboot. C) FInally and this is not actually covered in the book. You will be investing considerable time into the build and it is all too easy to go wrong requiring a restart right back to the begining. Some people take this on the chin as part of the price of the project. I like to make and keep backups of the LFS partition after every couple of compiles and at least after the really long ones so that I have conveneint restart points in the event of a disaster. Once again good luck with your build ... I hope you find it an enjoyable project. Regards Tony -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
[lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
Hello, Can someone explain what the directory structure is supposed to look like in Chapter 5? 1. Where does the Binutils folder/directory go? Where does the GCC folder go? That's all the further I have gotten so far. I think I will probably want to know where all the folders go. I created a separate partition for LFS, and put the folders there, is that right, or not? Or is it supposed to go into the /mnt/lfs folder? Or somewhere else? 2. Can someone also explain permissions? Who is supposed to have permissions on what? What permissions are supposed to be on the Binutils and GCC directories? root? lfs? And what are they supposed to be? read, write and execute? 3. What directory am I supposed to be in when I execute the commands? As I said, I have an LFS partition, so am I supposed to be in /media/LFS? Or more like /mnt/lfs? Or somewhere else? 4. Also, what does the two dots and slash mean? ../(some command) How does that factor into it? Thank in advance, Scott -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
Re: [lfs-support] Chapter 5 questions
On Thu, 03 May 2012 17:23, Tony Sauri wrote: The answers to all your questions (except the last) are contained in paragraphs 2, 3 and 4. Make that Chapters 2, 3 and 4 Tony -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-support FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/faq.html Unsubscribe: See the above information page
