[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #20 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Florian Reisinger from comment #19)
> 
> Doing to automatically won't work as the user might not have permission to
> create a new file.
> 
> I honestly do not believe that a backup without user involvement is possible
> 
> Still looking forward to answers to #15

Removal of HSQLDB and the Firebird migration was reviewed at ESC today [1] and
backed out [2], if it can be redone near term it will instead be optional at
6.1 with just NEW Base ODF using Firebird. This evenings builds of master have
HSQLDB restored.

=-ref-=
[1]
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-minutes-of-ESC-call-td4237769.html
[2] https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52731/

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #19 from Florian Reisinger  ---
(In reply to jonathon from comment #18)
> If it is going to automatically convert the database, could the first step
> in the conversion process be copying the file from filename.odb to
> filename.HSQLDB.date.time.odb.
> The second step would be converting filename.odb to
> filename.firebird.date.time.odb.
> The third step would be to copy filename.firebird.date.time.odb to
> filename.odb.
> All done with no user interaction.

Doing to automatically won't work as the user might not have permission to
create a new file.

I honestly do not believe that a backup without user involvement is possible

Still looking forward to answers to #15

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #18 from jonathon  ---
If it is going to automatically convert the database, could the first step in
the conversion process be copying the file from filename.odb to
filename.HSQLDB.date.time.odb.
The second step would be converting filename.odb to
filename.firebird.date.time.odb.
The third step would be to copy filename.firebird.date.time.odb to
filename.odb.
All done with no user interaction.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #17 from rob...@familiegrosskopf.de ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #16)
> Who said ANYTHING about the migration engine being backported to a 6.0
> release?
> 
Okay, have understand it the wrong way while reading about bugs migration from
HSQLDB to Firebird. Only 6.1.0.0.alpha0 will automatically migrate the
databases.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #16 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Who said ANYTHING about the migration engine being backported to a 6.0 release?

Deprecation notice needs to have gone in to the 6.0 release notes (and probably
should have gone in to the 5.4 release notes--given the TDF Tender approval).

This change only affects master toward a 6.1.0 (RC1 ~ July 2018).

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #15 from Florian Reisinger  ---
#11
"It is up to developer to decide what is best" (non 100% quote from the linked
thread) is not always the best solution as backward compatibility takes effort.

As I am doing my master thesis "done correctly" is a very hard term in software
engineering. Ignoring that...

"In the current state, the old HSQLDB data is also kept in the odb file 
after migration. You can revert the migration by unzipping the odb 
file and overwriting the URL in content.xml in tag 
. 

Besides that, the migration will be permanent only if you save the 
document and a red circle on the save button indicates that something 
has been changed."

For how long is it planned that all data is duplicated inside the ODB file?
That's the user-unfriendly way to copy the ODB file and convert the copy.

I do not see a big discussion about the change in DB (or I was not aware of
that). I do not say we should not move to a new database, but I (even as a
developer) do not expect in END USER software to change the file format in an
incompatible way. The current changes feels like having a DOCX file in a DOC
file without viability from outside!

Moreover for people, which are not reading the mailing lists issuing a
deprication notice at least in the release before it will be removed is
necessary. I do not say that we need a perfect convertation tool or a perfect
Firebird driver. However, with so few time for feedback (especially from very
complex DBs) we won't get feedback in time.

Even Robert's DBs from the handbook are not working at the moment.

The user gain time to test the changes and adapt for migration. For end user
facing software it is important to keep the format stable. Therefore switching
from an HSQLDB from 2005 to an up to date one would be as problematic as the
change to firebird.
I do not see parallels with MySQL (or HSQLDB for that purpose) as it can be
expected from developers that such a migration is tested. This care, however,
cannot be expected from end users (which Robert and I try to protect).

Such a transition will always be painful, However doing this in a big-bang
style like this - without urgent need to remove the old DB is not
comprehend-able for me. If you care to explain why

- removing a DB backend without deprication notice
- keeping the HSQLDB data in the ODB file WITHOUT possibility to open it with
an old version of LibreOffice
- hushing the transition to the new database backend

is a good idea.

The next bit is IMHO:

- Putting it in the 6.0 release notes is impossible - already released.
  --> Mark it for removal in 6.1 with removal in 6.2 / 6.3
--> Would give us time to fix corner case bugs
  --> New databases will be created with Firebird (by default?) in 6.1
- Why keep the old data in the file?
  --> Creating a new file with just Firebird data makes more sense as the end
user is not able to recover the data!
- Why do we need to get rid of HSQLDB so quickly?
  --> Is it the last piece of Java code?
  --> Does it solve lots of problems?
--> From Robert's tests it seems that Firebird has some problems
- In the linked thread some typed are declared different in HSQLDB and Firebird
  --> Is it tested that transition even works for these types (even if the data
size only COULD be too large but isn't at the moment.
- Do we have a user friendly document, which explains the possibly needed
manual steps needed to test the success of the conversion?
  --> User can ignore that, but it might help us get to know some bugs.
. How (in theory) is it assured that the conversion is working (I also
mentioned comparing the results of queries for being equal.
--> Can this be automated (and as I said) the conversion to FireBirdDB only
succeed if (specific kinds of) queries are evaluated in exactly the same way as
before.

Thanks for considering and / or answering above statements / questions.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #14 from rob...@familiegrosskopf.de ---
Firebird has been experimental the whole time. 
Nobody should add a new feature like "Firebird not experimental - Automatic
HSQLDB-migration" during an update from 6.0.3 to 6.0.4. No depecation-note
should be made from one 6.0 to another. This updates are for bugfixes, not for
new features.

I have tried a little bit with the migration and LO 6.1.0.0.alpha0. Thanks to
Drew Jensen to try this first. Many bugs appear. Many parts won't be migrated
(views, relationships ...) Tables won't be created, if relationships are
declared in a HSQLDB-database.

The migration is very experimental!

I have have written about bugs in Base since over 7 years. Open Base-bugs I
reported are 74 at this moment. 
I have written the Base-Handbook and many users will contact me for help with
there databases.
I haven't heard anything about an automatic migration from a working HSQLDB to
an experimental Firebird-DB.

I haven't informed myself at special developer-lists and was very surprised
when Alex wrote about this problem in Global users-list and German
discuss-list.

The expected next step should be:
Firebird shouldn't be an experimental feature in 6.1
Then we will have a look for the incoming bugs. Firebird has to be a better
solution than HSQLDB. If it isn't we couldn't explain users why we should
change from one to the other. 
Next step in 6.2 could be to offer a migration.
Last step in 6.3 should be to change from HSQLDB to Firebird.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #13 from Gerhard Weydt  ---
@ 11: The deprecation notice should have appeared in the release notes for 6.0
from the very beginning. Now it's too late for many people who have already
updated and will not read the release notes again!
And the concept of migrating to Firebird has one capital flaw, as far as can be
seen at present: it supposes that all will work perfectly and without the least
error. We all know that this is wishful thinking, there has to be a possibility
to go back or have a copy of the old situation _and_ a practicable way to get
at least at the data, which the new version 6.1 of LibO does not offer. Even
then a user who encounters a problem when the migration is done cannot use his
database application, which is still bad enough.
Even for changes of much less importance it is indispensable to have a concept
for the case of problems arising. We cannot this change-over without that.
Lionel's statement, which just arrived, is therefore reassuring.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #12 from Lionel Elie Mamane  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #11)

> There is ESC support for the implementation (Lionel is a member)

There is ESC support for the migration, and the change of default,
but not for the timing of it. HSQLDB and Firebird are two different
systems with two different SQL syntaxes, different feature sets, etc.
People that use Base as a development platform to make their own application
need a transition period to adapt their code.

IMO, the timing of the change of default for *new* databases is still not
decided for certain. It might happen for the next release, or later.
Depends on when bugs like 104918, 116935 and 116936 are fixed. See bug
51780 for the tracking of that. We may also want to wait for bug 116936
to be fixed.

Removing HSQLDB needs _time_ from the moment Firebird-in-LibreOffice is
stable, good quality, and has - broadly speaking - feature-parity with
HSQLDB. Bugs like 116936 are blocker for that. See bug 116970 for the
tracking of that.

> rather than stretching out the migration of internal HSQLDB to Firebird
> if the migration code is ready and gets well tested, there really is no
> practical UX reason to stretch out the pain point of the DB transition.

I feel that this POV comes from a view that all SQL engines are
interchangeable, they only differ in on-disk data storage format. For users
that only use Base as a graphical GUI to do stuff, that may even be, to a
moderate to large degree, true. However, for people using Base as an
application development platform, that is very much not true.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #11 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Hate to be the lone voice of dissent here, but Tamás remains under tender from
the foundation to get the HSQLDB migration tool done correctly.

There is ESC support for the implementation (Lionel is a member) and rather
than stretching out the migration of internal HSQLDB to Firebird (that should
have happened long ago starting at bug 38811) if the migration code is ready
and gets well tested--as Tamás requested [1]--there really is no practical UX
reason to stretch out the pain point of the DB transition.

In fact there is much to be said for an ESC led effort to see this conversion
completed, diverting dev cycles where needed to get the DB and the Base UIs
finished. The project--and users--gain little by pushing it down the road with
a "transitional" period. 

Otherwise, deprecation notice for internal HSQLDB should be made now in 6.0
release notes.

=-ref-=
[1]
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Database-migration-in-Base-tc4237588.html

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #10 from Florian Reisinger  ---
I would let the user save a new file. I guess the awareness might be higher
that he is able to use the old file with the old LibreOffice version. Let him
store a new file for the new behavior. The old file for the new behavior would
be strange for me.

Bur I am not an UX expert, just my 2 cents!

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #9 from Thomas Lendo  ---
From a UX point of view, we should not suppose that the user is creating a
backup file manually even if we warn him by an info bar.

We should force the user 1) either to save a backup file within an
automatically opened dialog where the user can choose a file name and a
location or 2) to save the new firebird file with an identical dialog.

This user prompted solution prevents failed auto-backups and informs the user
that there is something happen.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #8 from Florian Reisinger  ---
If (as currently built in) the content of the file is changed there is no way
going back!

If (in some way) the conversion is happening in a separate file, the user at
least has the change of moving back to an older (probable insecure) release of
LibreOffice.

I guess we all agree that the currently implemented behavior is not in any way
user friendly. It - in fact - will scare users away.

However, especially if we have a release with both database drivers we can
automatically compare the result of reports. Most read-only reports will change
if executed not in the same moment.

The hardest requirement would be to try converting to a new file and checking
all reports and fail (or give a warning with the name of the reports) when the
result are not identical.

Only with such a dynamic test suite we would have a chance to make the
transition as smooth as possible,

I hope you agree to my statement that the current situation must not be
released and that the conversation must happen to a new file.

Some might complain that this is similar to introducing a new algorithm for
encrypting documents, which also break compatibility with AOO and older
versions of LibO. However the complexity of implementing / using a different
encryption function cannot be compared to switching to a different database
backend. Therefore a staged approach (marking Firebird non-experimental,
creating new ODB files with Firebird, converting old databases OPTIONALLY,
removing HSQLDB) should be spitted up to more than one maybe 3 or more
releases. Bugs will appear and we need to fix them with the fewest impact for
the user. A staged roll-out therefore is from the end user's point of view the
only real option!

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

Gerhard Weydt  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||gerhard.we...@t-online.de

--- Comment #7 from Gerhard Weydt  ---
I totally agree with comment #6. I just want to point out some more problems.
Showing a warning if the migration didn't work or even before migrating is too
late, because the user has already updated LibreOffice, so he has no chance to
get at his data with that release. Surely, it is possible to do a parallel
installation, but many people will not know that or might not be able to do it
or simply give up, frustrated, and are lost for LibreOffice.
There has to be at least one release, say 6.0, where HSQLDB and Firebird run in
parallel, and informing the user that the database should be migrated to
Firebird for the future, but that he should first try it using a copy of his
database document.
Some might say that we have already had that period of parallel database
systems, but I am sure that most people will not have known that because you
could know about Firebird only if you had activated the experimental features,
or had read it somewhere, for example in Roberts Base handbook. I am using Bae
myself, with MariaDB when it's possible, but also with HSQLDB, but I haven't
yet tried Firebird, because I always heard it still was lacking functionality.
So I underline Florian's remark that the change is too quick.
But even an infobar in 6.0 when opening a database document with HSQLDB that
the database should be migrated to Firebird, because in 6.1 HSQLDB will no
longer be supported (the version nummbers only as an example) will not be
sufficient, there may be people updating from 5.4 to 6.1, they will never have
got that message.
I have no convincing proposal how to cope with this problem, yet, the only idea
I have for the moment is warning at the start of the installation describing
the problem and, if applicable, proposing to update first to the intermediate
version and test the migration before doing the second update. That's not very
comfortable.
All would be easier if someone could guarantee that the migration to Firebird
will always work, but who would be able to do that? Robert's experience shows
that we are far away from that.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #40 from unresponsive  ---
The power of this scaling feature to me is that you can move between any
system/display and with one simple setting all your documents now display in a
standard way with all your other systems/displays.   The coding might have been
a compromise, but it’s worth a compromise.  Kudos to the guys that originally
saw the value of this and got it done and made it work so well for so long. 
Job well done.

Frustration makes the wine taste sweetest, the truth most bitter.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #6 from Florian Reisinger  ---
@4: The file would be irreversible damaged I the conversation was not
successful?

@5: We can only get problems when automatically saving to a new location:

 - space on disc can be full
 - user could not have permissions

Therefore I would prefer prompting the user on fileopen to convert the database
and save it in a new location.

However the transition from experimental to default is too quick. We should
wait a few releases (at least one) to stabilize the new database. 

Therefore I believe HSQLDB should not be removed yet, but in the short future.
Conversation in the next release should be triggered only manually (and should
result in a new file.

Such a drastic transition would scare users away not only from Base, but from
LibreOffice. This is even more probable when no backup of a file is created and
the file is destroyed

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #4 from Heiko Tietze  ---
How about an infobar telling the user that migration was successful, or not?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

Lionel Elie Mamane  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|Firebird-migration must |Firebird-migration must
   |advise users of conversion  |happen only after user
   |and advise to backup data   |consent and advise to
   |prior to migration at 6.1   |backup data prior to
   ||migration at 6.1

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must advise users of conversion and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

Lionel Elie Mamane  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||116968


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116968
[Bug 116968] (Database-Firebird-Migration) - [META] Migrating existing embedded
HSQLDB databases to Firebird
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must advise users of conversion and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org,
   ||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu
Summary|Firebird-migration should   |Firebird-migration must
   |never work automatically|advise users of conversion
   ||and advise to backup data
   ||prior to migration at 6.1

--- Comment #3 from V Stuart Foote  ---
The summary "Firebird-migration should never work automatically" is invalid. 

Conversion from embedded 1.8.0 HSQLDB to Firebird 3.0. is explicit and happens
automatically as otherwise a legacy database would not open in LibreOffice
master/6.1.0

If the concern that the user needs more hand holding, and better notice that
the database will be restructured (with potential for data loss, and therefor a
suggestion to manually archive a backup)--that is a reasonable UI/UX
requirement. 

Summary adjusted...

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 75398] Repurpose Sifr as the new hicontrast theme

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=75398

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 Status|NEW |ASSIGNED
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |
   |.freedesktop.org|
   Assignee|libreoffice-b...@lists.free |tietze.he...@gmail.com
   |desktop.org |

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