Re: New LilyPond website

[Phil Holmes]

Instructions are here: 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/contributor/patches

So - ideally to the developer mailing list.

--
Phil Holmes


  - Original Message - 
  From: John Roper 
  To: David Kastrup 
  Cc: LilyPond-User list 
  Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 11:23 AM
  Subject: Re: New LilyPond website


  If I have a patch for an update of the css for the existing site, where can I 
submit it?


  -- 

  John Roper

  Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist

  Boston MA, USA

  http://jmroper.com/



--


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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

If I have a patch for an update of the css for the existing site, where can
I submit it?

-- 
John Roper
Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston MA, USA
http://jmroper.com/
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Re: translations in new LilyPond website [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Paul]

On 02/22/2017 02:14 PM, Graham Percival wrote:


On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 12:23:06AM -0500, Paul wrote:

What if we separated the design and implementation steps? First, come up
with a design that just uses css and simple html (nothing fancy, no library
dependencies, etc.), one that offers responsive design for smaller screens,
etc.

That's more or less exactly the point behind [1]: work on the CSS
without fussing about the underlying HTML.


Well, I think we are talking about two different points.  My point was 
to allow the html to be changed as well as the css -- in order to 
decouple the design process from the constraints of the build tools -- 
to allow John to design a website (with responsive design etc.) using 
his preferred tools (html, css), revising it until we are happy with it, 
and then port it to the current build system by converting the html to 
texinfo.


Are there reasons to constrain the website to the currently existing html?

I think it will be more difficult to successfully transition the site to 
an effective and well-implemented responsive design (that looks good on 
all screen sizes) if we restrict ourselves to only changing the css.  
And I don't think it's a bad thing if the site gets a redesign every 
decade or so.



It resulted in one new
LilyPond contributor [2], who began cleaning up the CSS.

[1] https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-web-css
[2] 
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/lilypond.git/commit/?id=ca2a46da10e1f627b68e7243958749b8ec007f43

Unfortunately, due to a combination of real-life problems and the
threat of throwing away the existing website, her interest in
working on this has dried up -- and I don't blame her in the
least!  I'm waiting for things to calm down, and then maybe I can
convince her to re-start.


That is unfortunate.  I also think it would be unfortunate to not take 
John up on his willingness to help us redesign the site and give it a 
responsive design.  My proposal is a way to make that possible by 
working around the impass created by the constraints and barriers to 
entry imposed by the build tools.


Cheers,
-Paul



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Re: translations in new LilyPond website [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 12:23:06AM -0500, Paul wrote:
> What if we separated the design and implementation steps? First, come up
> with a design that just uses css and simple html (nothing fancy, no library
> dependencies, etc.), one that offers responsive design for smaller screens,
> etc.

That's more or less exactly the point behind [1]: work on the CSS
without fussing about the underlying HTML.  It resulted in one new
LilyPond contributor [2], who began cleaning up the CSS.

[1] https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-web-css
[2] 
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/lilypond.git/commit/?id=ca2a46da10e1f627b68e7243958749b8ec007f43

Unfortunately, due to a combination of real-life problems and the
threat of throwing away the existing website, her interest in
working on this has dried up -- and I don't blame her in the
least!  I'm waiting for things to calm down, and then maybe I can
convince her to re-start.

There's also a technical tool which can help this process; I
mentioned that on the -devel list and hope to make it available
soon.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: translations in new LilyPond website [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Paul]

Forgot the Haunt static site generator link:

https://haunt.dthompson.us/


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Re: translations in new LilyPond website [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Paul]

On 02/14/2017 01:50 AM, Graham Percival wrote:


If we switched from texinfo to a different static website generator,
I suspect it would be pelican, gitbook, or hugo -- existing
projects with thousands of users and a thriving developer
community.


Haunt is also interesting, from a minimizing technical debt perspective, 
since it's built with Guile Scheme and supports the texinfo format.  
Also, it is very flexible, supports Atom feeds, etc.  Although it's not 
currently as mature or popular as others, I think it's used by other GNU 
projects?  Worth a look.



I wish that I could sound less discouraging.  I think that there
are some interesting ideas in your latest webpage, and it would
not be hard to implement them within the current texinfo
framework.


What if we separated the design and implementation steps?  First, come 
up with a design that just uses css and simple html (nothing fancy, no 
library dependencies, etc.), one that offers responsive design for 
smaller screens, etc.  Second, translate the html into texinfo so it 
will work with the current build setup.


The css would be the same so it would just be a matter of translating 
the html into the texinfo that would produce the same html back again.  
(Sure, we might feel like we were digging a hole only to fill it back up 
again, but hey, we get the website in multiple formats and guaranteed 
separation between content and presentation.)


This could be a one-off 'website redesign' project, with future edits 
still being made in texinfo.  If/when we ever got to stage two, then I'd 
likely be up for working on the html to texinfo part.


Cheers,
-Paul


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Re: translations in new LilyPond website [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno mar 14 feb 2017 alle 7:50, Graham Percival 
 ha scritto:

I would be very surprised if LilyPond ever switched to Blended --
that would be increasing our technical debt, not reducing it.  If
we switched from texinfo to a different static website generator,
I suspect it would be pelican, gitbook, or hugo -- existing
projects with thousands of users and a thriving developer
community.


I have the same feeling about it, but I didn't want to sound 
discouraging.
(I have some experience with hugo: it has an active and helping 
community)



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Re: translations in new LilyPond website [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 05:04:07PM +0100, Federico Bruni wrote:
> Il giorno gio 9 feb 2017 alle 0:11, John Roper  ha
> scritto:
> >Ok, you can see the most current version of my design on
> >http://jmroper.com/lilypond
> >
> >I am keeping the source for the website in
> >https://github.com/johnroper100/LilyPond-Web-Redesign
> 
> Before adding fancy stuff (such as embedded lilybin), I suggest that you
> provide a website that satisfies all the basic requirements. One of these -
> probably the most complex - is the translations. Do you have an idea already
> of how to manage it?

+1.  This, absolutely.  In addition to translations, I'd also like
to see an actual separation of content and templates.  In other
words, there should not be any files which contain website text
and html tags.


Also, I want to be clear so that there's no misunderstandings:
Doing the above does not mean that LilyPond will switch to a
different website generation method.  Doing the above only means
that we can begin to evaluate the technical merits of such a
change.

I would be very surprised if LilyPond ever switched to Blended --
that would be increasing our technical debt, not reducing it.  If
we switched from texinfo to a different static website generator,
I suspect it would be pelican, gitbook, or hugo -- existing
projects with thousands of users and a thriving developer
community.


I wish that I could sound less discouraging.  I think that there
are some interesting ideas in your latest webpage, and it would
not be hard to implement them within the current texinfo
framework.

- Graham

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translations in new LilyPond website [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno gio 9 feb 2017 alle 0:11, John Roper  
ha scritto:
Ok, you can see the most current version of my design on 
http://jmroper.com/lilypond


I am keeping the source for the website in 
https://github.com/johnroper100/LilyPond-Web-Redesign




Hi John

Before adding fancy stuff (such as embedded lilybin), I suggest that 
you provide a website that satisfies all the basic requirements. One of 
these - probably the most complex - is the translations. Do you have an 
idea already of how to manage it?





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Re: New LilyPond website

[David Kastrup]

John Roper  writes:

> For this to work can someone tell me if it is possible to embed
> lilybin? If not I am not going to bother to try.

Maybe crosscheck with the lilybin site owner?  I seem to vaguely
remember that we don't link to it from the current LilyPond page because
the site owner was worried about his traffic/hosting limits.

Embedding lilybin would seem like even more of a traffic generator.
Make no mistake: offering that facility would be nice, I am just not
sure that the current hoster is prepared to deal with it.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Federico Bruni]

Hi John

I think that, as long as lilypond runs on lilybin server, embedding lilybin is 
ok.Il 13 feb 2017 01:39 John Roper  ha scritto:
>
> For this to work can someone tell me if it is possible to embed lilybin? If 
> not I am not going to bother to try.
>
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Simon Albrecht  
> wrote:
>>
>> On 13.02.2017 00:52, John Roper wrote:
>>>
>>> I am redesigning with a serif font and a lilybin integration.
>>
>>
>> I marvel at your persistence and interest.
>> Thanks a lot!
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> John Roper
> Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
> Boston MA, USA
> http://jmroper.com/
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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

For this to work can someone tell me if it is possible to embed lilybin? If
not I am not going to bother to try.

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Simon Albrecht 
wrote:

> On 13.02.2017 00:52, John Roper wrote:
>
>> I am redesigning with a serif font and a lilybin integration.
>>
>
> I marvel at your persistence and interest.
> Thanks a lot!
>



-- 
John Roper
Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston MA, USA
http://jmroper.com/
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Simon Albrecht]

On 13.02.2017 00:52, John Roper wrote:

I am redesigning with a serif font and a lilybin integration.


I marvel at your persistence and interest.
Thanks a lot!

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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

I am redesigning with a serif font and a lilybin integration.
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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

On Feb 10, 2017 7:54 AM, "Johan Vromans"  wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 10:51:05 +0100, Michael Gerdau  wrote:

> The
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 10:51:05 +0100, Michael Gerdau  wrote:

> The new page is about 1.3 MB while the original one is about 170 kB
> Factor of 7.x

This is due to CSS/JS overhead and happens only once.

-- Johan

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Michael Gerdau]

> in total. After enabling scripts this problem vanishes.
> 
> In Vivaldi I don't see the background image at the top of the page
> at all.
> 
> 
> I test using all major browsers including Vivaldi (my main browser) and
> I am not getting any of these issues. 

Hmm. What is that to imply? That there is no problem?

I've disabled all extensions to check if one of these would interfere
(not that I expected it but you never know :) ) - no change.

For the record I'm using Vivaldi 1.6.689.46 (Stable channel) (64-Bit)
on Linux. JavaScript V8 5.5.372.33

It is invoked by /usr/bin/vivaldi-stable --always-authorize-plugins
--disable-translate --enable-blink-features=ResizeObserver
--flag-switches-begin --flag-switches-end


Another point I realized is the amount of stuff that gets downloaded for
the new page and for the original one:
The new page is about 1.3 MB while the original one is about 170 kB
Factor of 7.x

Not an issue for those with proper inet connections. Not sure about
rural areas.

Kind regards,
Michael
-- 
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 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Johan Vromans]

On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 14:32:18 -0800, "H. S. Teoh" 
wrote:

> I don't speak for anyone else, but I'm perfectly OK with using
> Javascript -- as long as it's not *required* for the website to be
> usable at all.

And all necessary javascript is loaded from the site itself, not from
(potential unreliable) 3rd party sites.

-- Johan

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Marc Mouries]

+ 1 to include lilybin not just a link but include the ability to try
lilypond directly from the browser without having to open another window.
Like the Haskell or like the ruby lang website (
https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/  see the link on the right "Try Ruby") .

2 user stories

1. a ) as a visitor with Javascript enabled, I see a lilypond expression "
c d e f g a b c'" on the left and on the right i can see the result that
was generated.
1. b)  as a visitor with Javascript enabled, I can change the lilypond
expression and automatically the score on the right is updated.

2) as a visitor with Javascript disabled, I can browse the lilypond site,
Instead of seeing the "lilybin" expression i can see an example or another
image, or an invitation to go to lilybin.com

lilybin.com could be included into the official website as part of its
new design. Something like "Try it - Type Haskell expressions in here"
in Haskell website https://www.haskell.org/

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 9:24 PM, John Roper  wrote:

> in total. After enabling scripts this problem vanishes.
>>
>> In Vivaldi I don't see the background image at the top of the page at all.
>>
>
> I test using all major browsers including Vivaldi (my main browser) and I
> am not getting any of these issues.
>
> --
> John Roper
> Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
> Boston MA, USA
> http://jmroper.com/
>
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>
>


-- 
-- Marc
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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

>
> in total. After enabling scripts this problem vanishes.
>
> In Vivaldi I don't see the background image at the top of the page at all.
>

I test using all major browsers including Vivaldi (my main browser) and I
am not getting any of these issues.

-- 
John Roper
Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston MA, USA
http://jmroper.com/
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Michael Gerdau]

> Ok, I changed the image to something that made more sense. What do you
> guys think about everything else?

I've looked at it with current versions of Firefox and Vivaldi:
On Firefox without allowing scripts all the boxes "Download 2.18.2",
"Release Notes" at the top are partly overlapping and can't be read
properly. The boxes at the bottom and too large but at least can be seen
in total. After enabling scripts this problem vanishes.

In Vivaldi I don't see the background image at the top of the page at all.

On the upside:
It looks shiny and more "modern" (whatever I may think about this in a
year or two). The downside is, it takes about twice as much vertical
space as the current original page which means I need to scroll alot.

Last not least I also prefer serif fonts and consider them easier to
read (yes, I've seen the argument about sans serif being easier to read
on low resolution devices - doesn't apply for most modern devices)

-- 
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 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Simon Albrecht]

On 09.02.2017 23:50, u...@openlilylib.org wrote:

Urs
Best

user that and why for this page to be viewed JavaScript has to be 
switched on.

requires JavaScript but has a decent  option, telling the
What I can imagine would work well is that a given "Try it out" page

for the website to work properly.
What will get no consent in the community is *requiring* JavaScript
The community never said it does not want JavaScript to be used.

It is just so much easier to read.
please get a habit of properly replying inline.
As someone wrote earlier:

Hi John, 


Wow, that’s poetic! :-)
Best, Simon

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Re: New LilyPond website

[H. S. Teoh]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 05:34:38PM -0500, John Roper wrote:
>Sadly the community does not want JavaScript to be used because
>most of the users don't like using it. I had that idea already but
>did not bring it up. I would love to though.
>
>On Feb 9, 2017 5:12 PM, "Bernardo Barros" <[1]bernardo.bar...@nyu.edu>
>wrote:
> 
>  [2]lilybin.com could be included into the official website as
>  part of its new design. Something like "Try it - Type Haskell
>  expressions in here" in Haskell website
>  [3]https://www.haskell.org/
[...]

I don't speak for anyone else, but I'm perfectly OK with using
Javascript -- as long as it's not *required* for the website to be
usable at all.  I think it totally makes sense for adding a "try it out
yourself" link to lilybin.com -- it's an optional extra that I think
adds a lot of value.


T

-- 
Heuristics are bug-ridden by definition. If they didn't have bugs, they'd be 
algorithms.

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Bernardo Barros]

On 09/02/2017 17:34, John Roper wrote:
> Sadly the community does not want JavaScript to be used because most 
> of the users don't like using it. I had that idea already but did
> not bring it up. I would love to though.


I think as long as the website has a fallback option without js, and js
code is free/libre, there should be no problem at all.

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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

Sadly the community does not want JavaScript to be used because most of the
users don't like using it. I had that idea already but did not bring it up.
I would love to though.

On Feb 9, 2017 5:12 PM, "Bernardo Barros"  wrote:

> lilybin.com could be included into the official website as part of its
> new design. Something like "Try it - Type Haskell expressions in here"
> in Haskell website https://www.haskell.org/
>
>
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Bernardo Barros]

lilybin.com could be included into the official website as part of its
new design. Something like "Try it - Type Haskell expressions in here"
in Haskell website https://www.haskell.org/


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Re: New LilyPond website

[Marc Mouries]

First, I want to thank John for his contribution. The new design looks more
modern and gives a feeling that lilypond's community is alive.

I deal with UI at work on a daily basis and no two persons will agree on
the look and feel of a website of application. So IMHO we should focus on
making sure that the new website template mechanism can integrate with
lilypond's development flow.

For writing music, I alternate between MuseScore and Lilypond. What makes
me come back to lilypond is the power of the text interface and scripting
capabilities. And let's not forget Frescobaldi. I had written a MacOS app
for lilypond and I know how much work it is.

So one think I'd like to see more visible in the lilypond website is the
power of Lilypond's scripting capabilities. I'd like to see featured
examples from the LSR ( Lilypond Snippet Repository:
http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Browse) that show examples that are difficult or
would take more time to write in other music notation software.

I'll ask the list for their input and may be some response could be
featured.

PS: on the home page of the new website , we can read "Excellent Classical
Engraving". I'd like to  replace "Classical" something else: One
suggestion:  "Free Music Score Engraving "
- Professional

Some notes on the new layout:
1) The favicon.ico file is missing
2) the header takes too much real estate that could be used to feature some
key


I'd suggest to put everyone's feedback or action items in a google sheet
for everyone to easily review, stay up to date. Google sheets or another
similar system will be helpful for prioritizing the feedback.

-Marc

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Simon Albrecht 
wrote:

> On 09.02.2017 08:35, Mats Behre wrote:
>
>> On 2017-02-09 07:41, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
>>
>>> . I like the sans-serif font more that you've used in the previous
>>>version.  Please restore it.
>>>
>> I would actually recommend not specifying a specific font at all. This
>> leaves the font selection to the user (and we will not have to debate the
>> choice endlessly ...).
>>
>
> I disagree. The choice of font conveys a lot of meaning, and we wouldn’t
> want the website to make a bad (or misleading) impression just because the
> browser by default uses a hideous font and the user didn’t bother to change
> that.
>
> Best, Simon
>
>
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-- 
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Simon Albrecht]

On 09.02.2017 08:35, Mats Behre wrote:

On 2017-02-09 07:41, Werner LEMBERG wrote:

. I like the sans-serif font more that you've used in the previous
   version.  Please restore it.
I would actually recommend not specifying a specific font at all. This 
leaves the font selection to the user (and we will not have to debate 
the choice endlessly ...). 


I disagree. The choice of font conveys a lot of meaning, and we wouldn’t 
want the website to make a bad (or misleading) impression just because 
the browser by default uses a hideous font and the user didn’t bother to 
change that.


Best, Simon

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Simon Albrecht]

On 09.02.2017 14:52, David Kastrup wrote:

John Roper  writes:

The standard human does not want to
read that much text.

Which makes the standard human unsuitable for working with LilyPond


Taking everything literally is not going to help communication, David. 
The standard human will be OK with reading lots of text, if they have 
gotten a sympathetic first impression and gained some emotional 
attachment. That doesn’t require their very first contact with the 
project containing a large caveat on reading a lot.



That does not mean that the typical prospective LilyPond user just loves
wading through walls of text.  But it does mean that there is only
partial overlap with the objectives of a website trying to sell shoes,


That’s right, but there _is_ _partial_ overlap. It doesn’t help to deny 
that.


Best, Simon

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Re: Re: New LilyPond website

[Mats Behre]

On 2017-02-09 07:41, Werner LEMBERG wrote:

. I like the sans-serif font more that you've used in the previous
   version.  Please restore it.

I would actually recommend not specifying a specific font at all. This leaves 
the font selection to the user (and we will not have to debate the choice 
endlessly ...).
Usually there are few situations where the font choice is essential for the 
layout, and as the purpose for this site is to present the content than the 
layout (I hope) it is not one of them, imho. (Download buttons could be an 
example, though.)

/mb

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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

I just pushed a new version of Blended which allows you to get other (HTML)
file contents as variables.
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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

>
> It's also worth noting that only part of a website's job is to garner
> initial interest (and it requires referals to be found in the first
> place).  Another is as a portal for people who already know what
> LilyPond is and want to get work done.


I belive that my design does both. The current one only really works for
people who already have even a little idea  of how LilyPond works.



-- 
John Roper
Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston MA, USA
http://jmroper.com/
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Re: New LilyPond website

[David Kastrup]

John Roper  writes:

> I changed the header size to be smaller. As for the overall design, again,
> the front page of the website is supposed to make the user want to take a
> look at it. A design such as this does that while a page full of serif text
> and two images does not.
>
> As for the separation of templates and content, that is the way any other
> site generator works. Also, there has to be HTML in any generator because
> no markup language like markup could do  any kind of advanced layout like
> that.
>
> No one expects the website to look like the output of a LilyPond
> document.  LilyPond does not make websites. Users expect the website
> to show them (in a nice-looking way) what LilyPond can do from
> examples. There is so much text. The standard human does not want to
> read that much text.

Which makes the standard human unsuitable for working with LilyPond
where reading documentation cannot sensibly be avoided because there is
no GUI constraining/directing your input.

That does not mean that the typical prospective LilyPond user just loves
wading through walls of text.  But it does mean that there is only
partial overlap with the objectives of a website trying to sell shoes,
and that the best balance for ending up with new users might lead to
different weights in the attention-interest-desire-action chain to avoid
scoring higher in early stages of the process but with an audience less
likely to stay around until the end.

It's also worth noting that only part of a website's job is to garner
initial interest (and it requires referals to be found in the first
place).  Another is as a portal for people who already know what
LilyPond is and want to get work done.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: New LilyPond website

[ul]

Am 2017-02-09 13:43, schrieb John Roper:

> I changed the header size to be smaller. As for the overall design, 
> again, the front page of the website is supposed to make the user want 
> to take a look at it. A design such as this does that while a page full 
> of serif text and two images does not.

That's correct, and I think these are actually details that don't
necessarily have to be discussed to the end right now.

> 
> As for the separation of templates and content, that is the way any 
> other site generator works. Also, there has to be HTML in any generator 
> because no markup language like markup could do  any kind of advanced 
> layout like that.

I think you misunderstand Werner here (while he might have made his
point slightly more explicit). The issue is not that the templates
contain HTML, the issue is that they contain *content*. But I think it
would be trivial to make also the mentioned pages behave regularly, i.e.
have the content retrieved through variables.


> 
> No one expects the website to look like the output of a LilyPond 
> document. LilyPond does not make websites. Users expect the website to 
> show them (in a nice-looking way) what LilyPond can do from examples. 
> There is so much text. The standard human does not want to read that 
> much text. They want to see examples. On the current website, all the 
> images are hidden away under Introduction/Examples.

You're mixing two issues here, and with one (the one I brought up) I
think you're not right. The website doesn't have to look like a LilyPond
document. But it has to make a suitable frame for LilyPond documents.
It's one of the basics of typography to try finding a suitable text font
that doesn't only look good but transports the content adequately. You
wouldn't use Helvetica for a website selling cashmere pullovers, and you
wouldn't use Caslon to promote an electronics discount store. And while
I think the font you use right now looks beautiful and makes for a good
website it's just not ideal for a website *about LilyPond*.

The other point is the ratio of images and text.
I think you have a valid point here, but I also think it will be a
challenge to find a solution that everybody can live with. It's most
probably not an option to discard substantial amounts of content, so
this seems to require a new sitemap with significantly more individual
pages (given that we can't use JavaScript to show/hide content dynamically).
>From experience I can only recommend to approach this issue slowly,
discussing steps individually. Websites are a topic where everybody can
have an opinion about, and even a strong one, and if the community is
faced with a suggestion that changes 10 things at once they will
probably have much stronger objections than if the changes are done
incrementally.

In any case we will have to consider "remapping" the content when
copying it over to a(ny) new website structure.

> 
 Indeed, sigh.  This is one of the reasons I don't like working with
 HTML.  Hopefully Blended can be improved to completely hide such
 issues for Joe User.
> 
> Yet the current LilyPond website is not responsive and does not work 
> with mobile (or some desktops).

Good point.

> 
>> Yep.  I was tagging the whole HTML generation chain as `Blended'
>> (*not* `Blender', BTW), which is a simplification.
> 
> It is Blended

Yeah, that was my initial typo ...

Urs

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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

I changed the header size to be smaller. As for the overall design, again,
the front page of the website is supposed to make the user want to take a
look at it. A design such as this does that while a page full of serif text
and two images does not.

As for the separation of templates and content, that is the way any other
site generator works. Also, there has to be HTML in any generator because
no markup language like markup could do  any kind of advanced layout like
that.

No one expects the website to look like the output of a LilyPond document.
LilyPond does not make websites. Users expect the website to show them (in
a nice-looking way) what LilyPond can do from examples. There is so much
text. The standard human does not want to read that much text. They want to
see examples. On the current website, all the images are hidden away under
Introduction/Examples.


> >>Indeed, sigh.  This is one of the reasons I don't like working with
> >>HTML.  Hopefully Blended can be improved to completely hide such
> >>issues for Joe User.
>

Yet the current LilyPond website is not responsive and does not work with
mobile (or some desktops).

Yep.  I was tagging the whole HTML generation chain as `Blended'
> (*not* `Blender', BTW), which is a simplification.


It is Blended


> >> These are the instructions to install `Blended' itself.  This is
> >> not what I'm looking for.  What I want is the explicit command line
> >> that I have to call to convert the input data in the git repository
> >> to the output html, where to expect the output files, etc., so that
> >> I can actually try to generate the output by myself.
>

That has been added. It is 'blended build' Also, that info is on the
website http://jmroper.com/blended

-- 
John Roper
Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston MA, USA
http://jmroper.com/
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Johan Vromans]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 09:44:58 +0100 (CET), Werner LEMBERG  wrote:

> What I want is the explicit command line that I
> have to call to convert the input data in the git repository to the
> output html, where to expect the output files, etc., so that I can
> actually try to generate the output by myself.

The command "blended build" will process everything and put the results in
subdirectory "build". In general, opening "build/index.html" in a browser
will take you to the opening page.

-- Johan

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Werner LEMBERG]

>>> Just for the record: With Firefox on Linux there's *no* problem.
>>
>>Indeed, sigh.  This is one of the reasons I don't like working with
>>HTML.  Hopefully Blended can be improved to completely hide such
>>issues for Joe User.
> 
> I assume this doesn't have anything to do with Blender (or the site
> generator in general) but the used CSS.  So it's something to be
> fixed on that level.

Yep.  I was tagging the whole HTML generation chain as `Blended'
(*not* `Blender', BTW), which is a simplification.

>> These are the instructions to install `Blended' itself.  This is
>> not what I'm looking for.  What I want is the explicit command line
>> that I have to call to convert the input data in the git repository
>> to the output html, where to expect the output files, etc., so that
>> I can actually try to generate the output by myself.
> 
> I *assume* if you'd run blended --help it will give you that
> information,

I guess so too, but...

> although I'd think that at least the command to build the site
> should be directly included in the "Running" section of the README.

this is *exactly* what I have expected to see.


Werner

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Urs Liska]

Am 09.02.2017 um 09:44 schrieb Werner LEMBERG:
>>> . At the top, I get something like the attached image (using
>>>   Chrome), regardless of the magnification.  This looks bad.  Isn't
>>>   it possible to have the button size changed dynamically?
>> Just for the record: With Firefox on Linux there's *no* problem.
> Indeed, sigh.  This is one of the reasons I don't like working with
> HTML.  Hopefully Blended can be improved to completely hide such
> issues for Joe User.

I assume this doesn't have anything to do with Blender (or the site
generator in general) but the used CSS.
So it's something to be fixed on that level.

>
 I am keeping the source for the website in
 https://github.com/johnroper100/LilyPond-Web-Redesign
>>> . Where are the instructions how the web pages are created?
>> Here: https://github.com/johnroper100/Blended
> These are the instructions to install `Blended' itself.  This is not
> what I'm looking for.  What I want is the explicit command line that I
> have to call to convert the input data in the git repository to the
> output html, where to expect the output files, etc., so that I can
> actually try to generate the output by myself.

I *assume* if you'd run blended--help it will give you that information,
although I'd think that at least the command to build the site should be
directly included in the "Running" section of the README.

Urs

>
> Werner

-- 
u...@openlilylib.org
https://openlilylib.org
http://lilypondblog.org


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Re: New LilyPond website

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> . At the top, I get something like the attached image (using
>>   Chrome), regardless of the magnification.  This looks bad.  Isn't
>>   it possible to have the button size changed dynamically?
> 
> Just for the record: With Firefox on Linux there's *no* problem.

Indeed, sigh.  This is one of the reasons I don't like working with
HTML.  Hopefully Blended can be improved to completely hide such
issues for Joe User.

>>> I am keeping the source for the website in
>>> https://github.com/johnroper100/LilyPond-Web-Redesign
>> . Where are the instructions how the web pages are created?
> 
> Here: https://github.com/johnroper100/Blended

These are the instructions to install `Blended' itself.  This is not
what I'm looking for.  What I want is the explicit command line that I
have to call to convert the input data in the git repository to the
output html, where to expect the output files, etc., so that I can
actually try to generate the output by myself.


Werner

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Urs Liska]

Hi John,


Am 09.02.2017 um 07:41 schrieb Werner LEMBERG:
>> Ok, you can see the most current version of my design on
>> http://jmroper.com/lilypond

Thanks for putting this up, it's very helpful to have it that way.
Of course you will probably get 20 different opinions from 15 users and
developers, but from my side I'd say this is definitely something we can
build upon.
Probably it will look "old-fashioned" in three or seven years, but
that's the point of separating website from documentation - it will be
much easier to reuse the Markdown content for a completely different
website then than it is to make substantial changes *now*.

> Thanks.  First, some comments regarding the layout.
>
> . I like the sans-serif font more that you've used in the previous
>   version.  Please restore it.

I don't have an opinion about the font itself, but I noticed that the
overall site design with that rather modern font is on some contrast
with the style of the music examples. I wouldn't use such a Futura-like
font in LIlyPond scores (at least with the default notation font)
either, so it might make sense to reconsider the font from that perspective.

>
> . At the top, I get something like the attached image (using Chrome),
>   regardless of the magnification.  This looks bad.  Isn't it possible
>   to have the button size changed dynamically?

Just for the record: With Firefox on Linux there's *no* problem.

>
>> I am keeping the source for the website in
>> https://github.com/johnroper100/LilyPond-Web-Redesign
> . Where are the instructions how the web pages are created?

Here: https://github.com/johnroper100/Blended

> . The layout of your repository is confusing me.  Right now, the
>   contents and the templates are completely intermixed, without any
>   clean separation.

I don't think that's true. There are some "bleed-overs" that should be
addressed, but there is the concept of separation ...

>
>   Looking at `templates/home_page.html' – which I guess is the source
>   template for the top-level web page – I see an ordinary HTML file
>   `home_page.html'.  

On the Blended page it says that the optional home_page.html can be used
(to have a different entry page), so this is a one-time "template" where
it's not technically necessary to separate template from content.

However, I'd strongly suggest to make that home_page use templates and
retrieve its content from a separate content file. I don't know if
that's built into Blender or only into the concrete implementation of
this website mockup. Probably Blender *would* be able to use templating
for this as well. If that's true I'd say it is not much of an issue
right now.

> Is this really the file that should be edited?  I
>   would have expected something like a `content/home_page.md' file.
>   Similarly, why is there an `content/examples.html' file and not an
>   `content/examples.md' file (or something similar in a higher-level
>   markup language)?

Idem. From what I see this should be easily achievable. If it is not you
should consider updating the engine because really all content should go
into a "content" folder where *everything* that the website authors
might want to touch can be found.

The third part of that is the nav1.html.
I *assume* it should be possible to make this dynamic as well. Of course
the navigational structure will change much less often than the, content
but still it should be accessible for editing the usual way. I *suggest*
using something like a nav.json in the contents or in a new "meta" folder.

>
> Please improve that, otherwise I can't evaluate your workflow at
> all...

I think that's too bold a statement, but yes, there is stuff to be improved.

In any case, thank you for the work so far.

Urs

>
>
> Werner
>
>
>
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Ok, you can see the most current version of my design on
> http://jmroper.com/lilypond

Thanks.  First, some comments regarding the layout.

. I like the sans-serif font more that you've used in the previous
  version.  Please restore it.

. At the top, I get something like the attached image (using Chrome),
  regardless of the magnification.  This looks bad.  Isn't it possible
  to have the button size changed dynamically?

> I am keeping the source for the website in
> https://github.com/johnroper100/LilyPond-Web-Redesign

. Where are the instructions how the web pages are created?

. The layout of your repository is confusing me.  Right now, the
  contents and the templates are completely intermixed, without any
  clean separation.

  Looking at `templates/home_page.html' – which I guess is the source
  template for the top-level web page – I see an ordinary HTML file
  `home_page.html'.  Is this really the file that should be edited?  I
  would have expected something like a `content/home_page.md' file.
  Similarly, why is there an `content/examples.html' file and not an
  `content/examples.md' file (or something similar in a higher-level
  markup language)?

Please improve that, otherwise I can't evaluate your workflow at
all...


Werner

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Shane Brandes]

The opening page is over 50% header vertically. The rest of the pages seem
decently proportioned. The 1px grey lines around the music examples might
be nicer not present at all.
Did I ever mention how much sans serif in block text is irritating. Yes I
was going to make a suggestion for a nice newer serif font, but I can't for
the life of me remember what it is.

Shane

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 8:02 PM, John Roper  wrote:

> Ok, I changed the image to something that made more sense. What do you
> guys think about everything else?
>
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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

Ok, I changed the image to something that made more sense. What do you guys
think about everything else?
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Re: New LilyPond website

[David Kastrup]

David Kastrup  writes:

> John Roper  writes:
>
>>>
>>> >> John, can you set up
>>> >>
>>> >>   http://jmroper.com/lilypond/
>>> >>
>>> >> with `blended' together with a README so that we can inspect the
>>> >> source code, CSS, etc., and the necessary steps to create it?  I
>>> >> think only a direct comparison can answer our questions.
>>>
>>
>> Ok, you can see the most current version of my design on
>> http://jmroper.com/lilypond
>
> Orchestra violinists are not really available in mirrored versions.

You mirrored the original photograph from
.  All the violins
are the wrong way round.  You cannot reverse a violin like that: it's
not symmetrical mechanically and acoustically.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Simon Albrecht]

On 09.02.2017 00:11, John Roper wrote:
Ok, you can see the most current version of my design on 
http://jmroper.com/lilypond


Of course there would be much to do on the details (e.g. I also don’t 
much fancy the title image with the violinist), but since this is about 
the design, I’ve got to say: I like it, and if it’s possible to 
integrate this sensibly with the documentation system (on which 
technical aspect I can’t comment), I’d love for LilyPond to have such a 
website.


Best, Simon

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Re: New LilyPond website

[David Kastrup]

John Roper  writes:

>>
>> >> John, can you set up
>> >>
>> >>   http://jmroper.com/lilypond/
>> >>
>> >> with `blended' together with a README so that we can inspect the
>> >> source code, CSS, etc., and the necessary steps to create it?  I
>> >> think only a direct comparison can answer our questions.
>>
>
> Ok, you can see the most current version of my design on
> http://jmroper.com/lilypond

Orchestra violinists are not really available in mirrored versions.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

>
> >> John, can you set up
> >>
> >>   http://jmroper.com/lilypond/
> >>
> >> with `blended' together with a README so that we can inspect the
> >> source code, CSS, etc., and the necessary steps to create it?  I
> >> think only a direct comparison can answer our questions.
>

Ok, you can see the most current version of my design on
http://jmroper.com/lilypond

I am keeping the source for the website in
https://github.com/johnroper100/LilyPond-Web-Redesign
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> John, can you set up
>>
>>   http://jmroper.com/lilypond/
>>
>> with `blended' together with a README so that we can inspect the
>> source code, CSS, etc., and the necessary steps to create it?  I
>> think only a direct comparison can answer our questions.
> 
> Yes I can. I also have a Github repository of my own where I can
> store the code.

Excellent, and thanks in advance for your efforts.


Werner

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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

>
> John, can you set up
>
>   http://jmroper.com/lilypond/
>
> with `blended' together with a README so that we can inspect the
> source code, CSS, etc., and the necessary steps to create it?  I think
> only a direct comparison can answer our questions.
>

Yes I can. I also have a Github repository of my own where I can store the
code.

-- 
John Roper
Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston MA, USA
http://jmroper.com/
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML
>> site generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText,
>> Textile, Plain Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
>>
>> http://jmroper.com/blended
> 
> I am not convinced that that changing our HTML generation is in our
> best interest at this time.
> 
> Design is almost entirely a question of CSS.  I'd like to see some
> serious effort at improving the CSS, since that it 99% of the
> user-visible changes, and does not negatively impact the rest of our
> code.  Again, I suggest that you look at:
> https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-web-css
> 
> If there is a need to style a particular element that currently
> lacks an id= or class= name, I'd be quite happy to add that to our
> existing texinfo and static site generation.

I think there are two separate issues.

(1) Update the CSS to make the web page visually more pleasing.

(2) Change the input syntax for the *web page* to something more
common and more flexible than texinfo, e.g., markdown + templates.

Both are reasonable IMHO, especially (1).  The question is whether and
how much of (2) we want.

John, can you set up

  http://jmroper.com/lilypond/

with `blended' together with a README so that we can inspect the
source code, CSS, etc., and the necessary steps to create it?  I think
only a direct comparison can answer our questions.


Werner

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 05:31:20AM -0500, John Roper wrote:
> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML site 
> generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText, Textile, Plain 
> Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
> 
> http://jmroper.com/blended

I am not convinced that that changing our HTML generation is in
our best interest at this time.

Design is almost entirely a question of CSS.  I'd like to see some
serious effort at improving the CSS, since that it 99% of the
user-visible changes, and does not negatively impact the rest of
our code.  Again, I suggest that you look at:
https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-web-css

If there is a need to style a particular element that currently
lacks an id= or class= name, I'd be quite happy to add that to our
existing texinfo and static site generation.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[David Kastrup]

Bernardo Barros  writes:

> https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2016/fall/so-heres-the-thing-free-software-isnt-cool

Well, the GPL is about staying in control.  Of course that isn't cool
compared to the hippies lacing Apples with BSD as if there was no
tomorrow.

-- 
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Bernardo Barros]

https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2016/fall/so-heres-the-thing-free-software-isnt-cool


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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[David Kastrup]

Ok, since I am not apparently getting _any_ answers but just unrelated
buzzphrases pasted to the top of the quoted communication time and
again, I will briefly point out first how we communicate on this list.
One quotes the _pertinent_ part of the documentation first, then adds
one's answers usually in-line to the pertinent questions.

John Roper  writes:

>> On Feb 4, 2017 5:59 PM, "David Kastrup"  wrote:
>>
>>> John Roper  writes:
>>>
>>> >> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 4:46 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> My question probably was not clear enough.  What tangible benefits for
>>> >>> LilyPond's website and its ongoing maintenance do we expect to reap from
>>> >>> a move to Blended as its content management system?
>>> >
>>> > Design update.
>>>
>>> So this content management system prescribes a particular design, or
>>> makes implementing a particular design easier?

Still unanswered.

>>> > It looks better and attracts more users to the software.
>>>
>>> Last time I looked, users were not selecting their software by leafing
>>> through random web pages until they find a generally good-looking one
>>> and then being attracted to the software it advertises.
>>>
>>> At any rate, I wasn't really asking for advertising slogans here but
>>> rather concrete examples of stuff that would improve under such a
>>> change.
>
> I wrote the Blended system to fit all of the requirements for
> redesigning the website (not documentation) for LilyPond. A nice side
> effect was that I can use it for other things.

Not addressing the request.

Could you give concrete examples of stuff that would be expected to
improve under a change of the content management system to Blended?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[John Roper]

I wrote the Blended system to fit all of the requirements for redesigning
the website (not documentation) for LilyPond. A nice side effect was that I
can use it for other things.

On Feb 4, 2017 5:59 PM, "David Kastrup"  wrote:

> John Roper  writes:
>
> >> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 4:46 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
> >>
> >>> John Roper  writes:
> >>>
> >>> >> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 4:16 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Urs Liska  writes:
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > Separating website content from general documentation should
> >>> >>> > definitely be an option.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> What advantages do you expect from it?
> >>> >
> >>> > It is easier for users to write and it looks better.
> >>>
> >>> Who are "users"?  What are we wanting them to write?
> >>>
> >>> > Blended exports human-readable files.
> >>>
> >>> We already export human-readable files in a host of formats including
> >>> PDF, HTML, plain text.
> >>>
> >>> > Look at the website. http://jmroper.com/blended/
> >>>
> >>> My question probably was not clear enough.  What tangible benefits for
> >>> LilyPond's website and its ongoing maintenance do we expect to reap
> from
> >>> a move to Blended as its content management system?
> >
> > Design update.
>
> So this content management system prescribes a particular design, or
> makes implementing a particular design easier?
>
> > It looks better and attracts more users to the software.
>
> Last time I looked, users were not selecting their software by leafing
> through random web pages until they find a generally good-looking one
> and then being attracted to the software it advertises.
>
> At any rate, I wasn't really asking for advertising slogans here but
> rather concrete examples of stuff that would improve under such a
> change.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[David Kastrup]

John Roper  writes:

>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 4:46 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>
>>> John Roper  writes:
>>>
>>> >> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 4:16 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Urs Liska  writes:
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Separating website content from general documentation should
>>> >>> > definitely be an option.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> What advantages do you expect from it?
>>> >
>>> > It is easier for users to write and it looks better.
>>>
>>> Who are "users"?  What are we wanting them to write?
>>>
>>> > Blended exports human-readable files.
>>>
>>> We already export human-readable files in a host of formats including
>>> PDF, HTML, plain text.
>>>
>>> > Look at the website. http://jmroper.com/blended/
>>>
>>> My question probably was not clear enough.  What tangible benefits for
>>> LilyPond's website and its ongoing maintenance do we expect to reap from
>>> a move to Blended as its content management system?
>
> Design update.

So this content management system prescribes a particular design, or
makes implementing a particular design easier?

> It looks better and attracts more users to the software.

Last time I looked, users were not selecting their software by leafing
through random web pages until they find a generally good-looking one
and then being attracted to the software it advertises.

At any rate, I wasn't really asking for advertising slogans here but
rather concrete examples of stuff that would improve under such a
change.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 04.02.2017 um 22:16 schrieb David Kastrup:
>>> Separating website content from general documentation should definitely
>>> be an option.
>> What advantages do you expect from it?
>
> Breaking the technical tie between documentation and website makes it
> possible to update the (much smaller) website independently from the
> documentation system.

So what updates are expected to be done by who in consequence of such a
change?

> Basically I have the impression that we will never change the basic
> documentation system anymore because it's such a complex and
> historically grown system. And everytime someone comes to us proposing
> more-than-cosmetic changes they are eventually rejected because they
> are not compatible with that inflexible system.

So which more-than-cosmetic changes are we anticipating in consequence
of a change to the website generation?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.02.2017 um 22:16 schrieb David Kastrup:
>> Separating website content from general documentation should definitely
>> be an option.
> What advantages do you expect from it?

Breaking the technical tie between documentation and website makes it
possible to update the (much smaller) website independently from the
documentation system. Basically I have the impression that we will never
change the basic documentation system anymore because it's such a
complex and historically grown system. And everytime someone comes to us
proposing more-than-cosmetic changes they are eventually rejected
because they are not compatible with that inflexible system.

-- 
Urs Liska
https://openlilylib.org
http://lilypondblog.org

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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[John Roper]

Design update. It looks better and attracts more users to the software.

On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 4:46 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:

> John Roper  writes:
>
> >> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 4:16 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Urs Liska  writes:
> >>>
> >>> > Am 03.02.2017 um 18:20 schrieb Federico Bruni:
> >>> >> Il giorno ven 3 feb 2017 alle 11:31, John Roper
> >>> >>  ha scritto:
> >>> >>> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML
> >>> >>> site generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText,
> >>> >>> Textile, Plain Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
> >>> >>> http://jmroper.com/blended Is that versatile enough for you? Also,
> >>> >>> how do you handle translations?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Yet another static site generator (SSG)? The purpose is simplicity?
> >>> >> (as compared to other SSG)
> >>> >> I don't have time to test it in the coming days.
> >>> >> The templates are simple HTML files with the added value of using
> >>> >> {{variables}}? I mean, you are not using any existing template
> system?
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> > I can't comment on that right now.
> >>> >
> >>> >> ...
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Personally, I think that switching (for the website only!) from
> >>> >> texinfo to a static site generator based on markdown/html source
> files
> >>> >> and a simple template system would be wonderful.
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> > +1
> >>> >
> >>> > Separating website content from general documentation should
> definitely
> >>> > be an option.
> >>>
> >>> What advantages do you expect from it?
> >
> > It is easier for users to write and it looks better.
>
> Who are "users"?  What are we wanting them to write?
>
> > Blended exports human-readable files.
>
> We already export human-readable files in a host of formats including
> PDF, HTML, plain text.
>
> > Look at the website. http://jmroper.com/blended/
>
> My question probably was not clear enough.  What tangible benefits for
> LilyPond's website and its ongoing maintenance do we expect to reap from
> a move to Blended as its content management system?
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>



-- 
John Roper
Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston, MA USA
http://jmroper.com/
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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[David Kastrup]

John Roper  writes:

>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 4:16 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>
>>> Urs Liska  writes:
>>>
>>> > Am 03.02.2017 um 18:20 schrieb Federico Bruni:
>>> >> Il giorno ven 3 feb 2017 alle 11:31, John Roper
>>> >>  ha scritto:
>>> >>> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML
>>> >>> site generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText,
>>> >>> Textile, Plain Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
>>> >>> http://jmroper.com/blended Is that versatile enough for you? Also,
>>> >>> how do you handle translations?
>>> >>
>>> >> Yet another static site generator (SSG)? The purpose is simplicity?
>>> >> (as compared to other SSG)
>>> >> I don't have time to test it in the coming days.
>>> >> The templates are simple HTML files with the added value of using
>>> >> {{variables}}? I mean, you are not using any existing template system?
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > I can't comment on that right now.
>>> >
>>> >> ...
>>> >>
>>> >> Personally, I think that switching (for the website only!) from
>>> >> texinfo to a static site generator based on markdown/html source files
>>> >> and a simple template system would be wonderful.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > +1
>>> >
>>> > Separating website content from general documentation should definitely
>>> > be an option.
>>>
>>> What advantages do you expect from it?
>
> It is easier for users to write and it looks better.

Who are "users"?  What are we wanting them to write?

> Blended exports human-readable files.

We already export human-readable files in a host of formats including
PDF, HTML, plain text.

> Look at the website. http://jmroper.com/blended/

My question probably was not clear enough.  What tangible benefits for
LilyPond's website and its ongoing maintenance do we expect to reap from
a move to Blended as its content management system?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Simon Albrecht]

A: Because it messes with the order in which people read text.
Q: Why is top-posting a bad thing?

Just sayin’… :-)

Best, Simon


On 04.02.2017 22:21, John Roper wrote:
It is easier for users to write and it looks better. Blended exports 
human-readable files. Look at the website. http://jmroper.com/blended/


On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 4:16 PM, David Kastrup > wrote:


Urs Liska > writes:

> Am 03.02.2017 um 18:20 schrieb Federico Bruni:
>> Il giorno ven 3 feb 2017 alle 11:31, John Roper
>> > ha
scritto:
>>> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML
>>> site generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText,
>>> Textile, Plain Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
>>> http://jmroper.com/blended Is that versatile enough for you? Also,
>>> how do you handle translations?
>>
>> Yet another static site generator (SSG)? The purpose is simplicity?
>> (as compared to other SSG)
>> I don't have time to test it in the coming days.
>> The templates are simple HTML files with the added value of using
>> {{variables}}? I mean, you are not using any existing template
system?
>>
>
> I can't comment on that right now.
>
>> ...
>>
>> Personally, I think that switching (for the website only!) from
>> texinfo to a static site generator based on markdown/html
source files
>> and a simple template system would be wonderful.
>>
>
> +1
>
> Separating website content from general documentation should
definitely
> be an option.

What advantages do you expect from it?

--
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--
John Roper
Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston, MA USA
http://jmroper.com/


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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[John Roper]

It is easier for users to write and it looks better. Blended exports
human-readable files. Look at the website. http://jmroper.com/blended/

On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 4:16 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:

> Urs Liska  writes:
>
> > Am 03.02.2017 um 18:20 schrieb Federico Bruni:
> >> Il giorno ven 3 feb 2017 alle 11:31, John Roper
> >>  ha scritto:
> >>> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML
> >>> site generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText,
> >>> Textile, Plain Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
> >>> http://jmroper.com/blended Is that versatile enough for you? Also,
> >>> how do you handle translations?
> >>
> >> Yet another static site generator (SSG)? The purpose is simplicity?
> >> (as compared to other SSG)
> >> I don't have time to test it in the coming days.
> >> The templates are simple HTML files with the added value of using
> >> {{variables}}? I mean, you are not using any existing template system?
> >>
> >
> > I can't comment on that right now.
> >
> >> ...
> >>
> >> Personally, I think that switching (for the website only!) from
> >> texinfo to a static site generator based on markdown/html source files
> >> and a simple template system would be wonderful.
> >>
> >
> > +1
> >
> > Separating website content from general documentation should definitely
> > be an option.
>
> What advantages do you expect from it?
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
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-- 
John Roper
Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston, MA USA
http://jmroper.com/
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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 03.02.2017 um 18:20 schrieb Federico Bruni:
>> Il giorno ven 3 feb 2017 alle 11:31, John Roper
>>  ha scritto:
>>> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML
>>> site generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText,
>>> Textile, Plain Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
>>> http://jmroper.com/blended Is that versatile enough for you? Also,
>>> how do you handle translations?
>>
>> Yet another static site generator (SSG)? The purpose is simplicity?
>> (as compared to other SSG)
>> I don't have time to test it in the coming days.
>> The templates are simple HTML files with the added value of using
>> {{variables}}? I mean, you are not using any existing template system?
>>
>
> I can't comment on that right now.
>
>> ...
>>
>> Personally, I think that switching (for the website only!) from
>> texinfo to a static site generator based on markdown/html source files
>> and a simple template system would be wonderful.
>>
>
> +1
>
> Separating website content from general documentation should definitely
> be an option.

What advantages do you expect from it?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[John Roper]

Blended now has support for *eleven* markup languages and it has a new
website!

http://jmroper.com/blended/

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:39 PM, John Roper  wrote:

> There is a template system. You setup page templates and Blended inserts
> the text from any file into that template.
>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:34 PM, Urs Liska  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Am 03.02.2017 um 18:20 schrieb Federico Bruni:
>> > Il giorno ven 3 feb 2017 alle 11:31, John Roper
>> >  ha scritto:
>> >> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML
>> >> site generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText,
>> >> Textile, Plain Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
>> >> http://jmroper.com/blended Is that versatile enough for you? Also,
>> >> how do you handle translations?
>> >
>> > Yet another static site generator (SSG)? The purpose is simplicity?
>> > (as compared to other SSG)
>> > I don't have time to test it in the coming days.
>> > The templates are simple HTML files with the added value of using
>> > {{variables}}? I mean, you are not using any existing template system?
>> >
>>
>> I can't comment on that right now.
>>
>> > ...
>> >
>> > Personally, I think that switching (for the website only!) from
>> > texinfo to a static site generator based on markdown/html source files
>> > and a simple template system would be wonderful.
>> >
>>
>> +1
>>
>> Separating website content from general documentation should definitely
>> be an option.
>> Urs
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> John Roper
> Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
> Boston, MA USA
> http://jmroper.com/
>



-- 
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Boston, MA USA
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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[John Roper]

There is a template system. You setup page templates and Blended inserts
the text from any file into that template.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:34 PM, Urs Liska  wrote:

>
>
> Am 03.02.2017 um 18:20 schrieb Federico Bruni:
> > Il giorno ven 3 feb 2017 alle 11:31, John Roper
> >  ha scritto:
> >> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML
> >> site generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText,
> >> Textile, Plain Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
> >> http://jmroper.com/blended Is that versatile enough for you? Also,
> >> how do you handle translations?
> >
> > Yet another static site generator (SSG)? The purpose is simplicity?
> > (as compared to other SSG)
> > I don't have time to test it in the coming days.
> > The templates are simple HTML files with the added value of using
> > {{variables}}? I mean, you are not using any existing template system?
> >
>
> I can't comment on that right now.
>
> > ...
> >
> > Personally, I think that switching (for the website only!) from
> > texinfo to a static site generator based on markdown/html source files
> > and a simple template system would be wonderful.
> >
>
> +1
>
> Separating website content from general documentation should definitely
> be an option.
> Urs
>
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-- 
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Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston, MA USA
http://jmroper.com/
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Re: Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Urs Liska]

Am 03.02.2017 um 18:20 schrieb Federico Bruni:
> Il giorno ven 3 feb 2017 alle 11:31, John Roper
>  ha scritto:
>> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML
>> site generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText,
>> Textile, Plain Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
>> http://jmroper.com/blended Is that versatile enough for you? Also,
>> how do you handle translations?
>
> Yet another static site generator (SSG)? The purpose is simplicity?
> (as compared to other SSG)
> I don't have time to test it in the coming days.
> The templates are simple HTML files with the added value of using
> {{variables}}? I mean, you are not using any existing template system?
>

I can't comment on that right now.

> ...
>
> Personally, I think that switching (for the website only!) from
> texinfo to a static site generator based on markdown/html source files
> and a simple template system would be wonderful.
>

+1

Separating website content from general documentation should definitely
be an option.
Urs

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Blended, static site generator [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno ven 3 feb 2017 alle 11:31, John Roper 
 ha scritto:
OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML 
site generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText, 
Textile, Plain Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx). 
http://jmroper.com/blended Is that versatile enough for you? Also, 
how do you handle translations?


Yet another static site generator (SSG)? The purpose is simplicity? (as 
compared to other SSG)

I don't have time to test it in the coming days.
The templates are simple HTML files with the added value of using 
{{variables}}? I mean, you are not using any existing template system?


Website, like the documentation manuals, is translated just by copying 
the original english file in the proper language directory (and of 
course translate it). Then a script (check-translation.py) compares the 
committish in the translated file, written by the translator, with the 
latest committish of the original english file; and shows the 
differences between the two versions, if any. This is explained here:

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/contributor/documentation-translation-maintenance

and here:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/contributor/translating-the-website

An alternative approach is using gettext and PO files, which is 
probably better because you no longer need a script to keep track of 
changes. And translators active in open source projects already know 
well how it works.


Personally, I think that switching (for the website only!) from texinfo 
to a static site generator based on markdown/html source files and a 
simple template system would be wonderful.





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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML site 
generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText, Textile, Plain Text 
(.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).

http://jmroper.com/blended

Is that versatile enough for you? Also, how do you handle translations?

On February 3, 2017, at 2:43 AM, Graham Percival  
wrote:

On Thu, Feb 02, 2017 at 09:31:39PM -0500, John Roper wrote:
>Ok, so what are the major things you would like from a new web redesign
>(not including the docs)?
>I know of:
>Not reliant on JavaScript
>Can be translated
>Can be updated with each new build

There's a few non-negotiable points:
- no server-side processing, no "dynamic" website.  We're using
  a donated shared server.  Anything which increases our resource
  load or opens a security risk is a non-starter.
- can be created automatically from source.  (This is probably
  implied by your "can be updated with each new build" point, but
  better to be clear up-front.)

A few points which are highly encouraged, but which I suppose
could be negotated:
- should be relatively easy for newcomers to update.  Texinfo
  qualifies; I guess that HTML could qualify as long as there's
  a clear separation of content and styling.  Markdown would
  certainly satisfy this point, but I'm not confident that it can
  do everything we'd want.
- work within the existing system.  We have a lot of developers,
  and a lot of history.  There are certainly many ways that our
  processes can be improved, but we generally have reasons why
  things are the way they are.
- last December, I prepared a github repository specifically to
  address the case of somebody wanting to modify the website:
https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-web-css
  One person started working on this, and her first change has
  already been accepted to the LilyPond git repository.
  Unfortunately her progress has stalled a bit due to my health
  and various deadlines on Feb 4, but I hope to pick things up
  next week.

I strongly recommend that you take a look at that repository and
follow the steps outlined there.  As Werner and Urs recommended,
start with one small change -- "evolution, not revolution".  See
what kind of reaction that gets, let it go through the development
process, then repeat.

Cheers,
- Graham
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Feb 02, 2017 at 09:31:39PM -0500, John Roper wrote:
>Ok, so what are the major things you would like from a new web redesign
>(not including the docs)?
>I know of:
>Not reliant on JavaScript
>Can be translated
>Can be updated with each new build

There's a few non-negotiable points:
- no server-side processing, no "dynamic" website.  We're using
  a donated shared server.  Anything which increases our resource
  load or opens a security risk is a non-starter.
- can be created automatically from source.  (This is probably
  implied by your "can be updated with each new build" point, but
  better to be clear up-front.)

A few points which are highly encouraged, but which I suppose
could be negotated:
- should be relatively easy for newcomers to update.  Texinfo
  qualifies; I guess that HTML could qualify as long as there's
  a clear separation of content and styling.  Markdown would
  certainly satisfy this point, but I'm not confident that it can
  do everything we'd want.
- work within the existing system.  We have a lot of developers,
  and a lot of history.  There are certainly many ways that our
  processes can be improved, but we generally have reasons why
  things are the way they are.
- last December, I prepared a github repository specifically to
  address the case of somebody wanting to modify the website:
https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-web-css
  One person started working on this, and her first change has
  already been accepted to the LilyPond git repository.
  Unfortunately her progress has stalled a bit due to my health
  and various deadlines on Feb 4, but I hope to pick things up
  next week.

I strongly recommend that you take a look at that repository and
follow the steps outlined there.  As Werner and Urs recommended,
start with one small change -- "evolution, not revolution".  See
what kind of reaction that gets, let it go through the development
process, then repeat.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Ok, so what are the major things you would like from a new web
> redesign (not including the docs)?
> 
> I know of:
> 
> Not reliant on JavaScript
> Can be translated
> Can be updated with each new build

If possible, try an incremental approach!  I'm quite sure that you can
achieve almost everything you want (together with convincing
arguments) if it comes in smaller steps.


Werner

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Paul]

On 02/02/2017 09:31 PM, John Roper wrote:

Ok, so what are the major things you would like from a new web 
redesign (not including the docs)?


Hi,  I'll defer to Graham and others on this (cc'd).  Probably best to 
start a new thread for this question on the developer's list: 
http://lilypond.org/contact.html


Cheers,
-Paul

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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

Ok, so what are the major things you would like from a new web redesign
(not including the docs)?

I know of:

Not reliant on JavaScript
Can be translated
Can be updated with each new build

-- 
John Roper
Freelance Developer and Simulation Artist
Boston, MA USA
http://jmroper.com/
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Johan Vromans]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 23:54:16 +0100, Michael Gerdau  wrote:

> I'm fine with using javascript on any site as long as I who generally
> and deliberately disables javascript can still use that site.

I'd like to add: There is good value in javascript for web sites. However,
an astonishing number of websites nowadays blindly include a vast
collection of 3rd party javascript. Thats' where the risks are, since you
cannot control what the 3rd parties will do (now, and in some future) with
their code and your data. And yes, that includes WP, Google Analytics,
JQuery, and so on.

So some local javascript can be pretty safe. 3rd party scripts? No thanks.

-- Johan


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Re: New LilyPond website

[Shane Brandes]

I think John has accomplished a lot of useful things. Chiefly exposing
to the rest of the community the nontrivial nature of maintenance for
the LilyPond website. He also has demonstrated that we appreciate
useful progress or improvement but also are clearly interested in why
that should constitute such.

On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 4:35 PM, John Roper  wrote:
>>> Why this unwarranted hostility?
> ?
>
>>And my view is, if
>> you refuse to use JavaScript, or try to run a defunct browser, that's your
>> problem.
>
> That is my view too. I understand about your blind users, but you can
> view a javascript-enabled website with a text website. It is possible.
>
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Michael Gerdau]

> >And my view is, if
> >
> > you refuse to use JavaScript, or try to run a defunct browser, that's
> > your problem.
> 
> That is my view too. I understand about your blind users, but you can
> view a javascript-enabled website with a text website. It is possible.

Refusing to use javascript has nothing to do with using defunct browsers.
Allowing a site to use javascript does by design incur
 - higher risk of being infected by malevolent or conquered sites
 - greater loss of privacy and personal data

We don't have to agree that the above are valueable assets but assets
they are.

Forcing anybody to trade them in in my book requires very good reason.

Therefor:
I'm fine with using javascript on any site as long as I who generally
and deliberately disables javascript can still use that site.

Note I'm saying this as someone very well versed with the benefits and
the disadvantages (as in dangers) of javascript.


That having said:
I strongly second Urs's posting in this thread an hour ago.

Kind regards,
Michael
-- 
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Urs Liska]

Hi John,

Am 11.12.2016 um 22:36 schrieb John Roper:
> I would really love to help, but I can spend the time fighting with
> every single person on the thread.
> 

Please let me share some personal memories with you.

You may know that I am one of the longer-lasting and pretty active
people in the LilyPond community. I have not contributed much to
LilyPond's code itself but all the more to the ecosystem. But that's of
course not the point.

My very first contribution to LilyPond's Git repository was about the
website too, and it went really similar to what you just experienced. In
a way I made the same mistake that you did, faced the same reaction, and
was at the brink of throwing the towel when someone (actually it was
Graham) made the essential remarks.

I didn't want to change the appearance of the website but its content. I
found the writing and the logic in the "introduction" tour insufficient,
and it looked to me like being written by developers who didn't have the
perspective of the actual target audience of the website anymore.
What I did was more or less completely rewrite this suite of pages (OK,
I tried to keep as much of it, but essentially it was a fundamental
rewrite), created a dummy website and proposed that to the developer
community.

Reactions were very similar to what you faced, and it was quite harsh at
times, although I was sure I was right, at least with my analysis, of
course not necessarily with the "single correct solution".

Graham then made two striking remarks:
First: The website is something *everybody* can and does have a
(potentially strong) opinion about. So patches (or suggestions)
concerning the website are much more likely to trigger debate and
dissent than obscure changes deeply hidden within the code that barely
anyone reads and understands.
Second: When you're coming freshly to a team (and correct me if I'm
wrong but your "New website" thread seems to be your very first
appearance on the scene at all, while I had already been a well-known
community member back then) and propose such a fundamental change it is
even more likely to face strong opposition and/or controversial debate.

Graham's suggestion then (and I believe he said something similar now) was:
* Strip your suggestions down to small, coherent changes
* Present them one after another
* Start with presumably uncontroversial things
* Expect your authority on the subject to grow with
  each applied patch
* This also gives you the chance to grow into the system, workflow and
  requirements/restrictions

I followed that suggestion and got most of my ideas through to the
current state of the website content. The main issue with this approach
is that it will take much longer to achieve the final goal (and I assume
there *were* some of my initial ideas that got lost during the process),
but it will run with much less friction, and through the iterative
nature of the process possibly with better overall results.

I think there's still a chance to continue implementing your ideas if
you'll be able not to perceive such a step-back as a failure or a
defeat. Especially as Graham had actually just started turning some of
your code into a patch.

Best regards
Urs

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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

I would really love to help, but I can spend the time fighting with
every single person on the thread.

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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

>> Why this unwarranted hostility?
?

>And my view is, if
> you refuse to use JavaScript, or try to run a defunct browser, that's your
> problem.

That is my view too. I understand about your blind users, but you can
view a javascript-enabled website with a text website. It is possible.

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Chris Yate]

On 11 Dec 2016 07:23, "David Kastrup"  wrote:

Werner LEMBERG  writes:

>>> I just don't think I am the best person for the job.
>>
>> Roper has finally posted something I agree with.
>
> Why this unwarranted hostility?  His final design was sound, and I
> think we should adapt some key elements.  And even if you think it was
> not, you shouldn't word it like that.

I don't think there is a mythical "best person for the job" anyway.
Someone who is really into web design will really not be into our
constraints and tool chains.

John has demonstrated remarkable willingness to adapt himself to those,
so I was rather sad to see him overcome by a combination of those and on
top of that a bit of attitude that was in excess of what explaining the
situation strictly would have warranted.

He appeared like a lot more than we could have hoped for until he
finally threw in the towel.

--
David Kastrup


I'd missed him throwing in the towel, but with the sheer amount of
negativity in these threads regarding the idea of reworking the website, I
can't blame him.

Open source is great, old tools that still work are great, changing things
for no reason should be resisted; but let's not resist all change for the
sake of it.

I for one really liked his approach. And accessibility is important, as is
automatically/computationally generated documentation. And my view is, if
you refuse to use JavaScript, or try to run a defunct browser, that's your
problem.

Chris
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Jan-Peter Voigt]

Am 11.12.2016 um 08:23 schrieb David Kastrup:

Werner LEMBERG  writes:


I just don't think I am the best person for the job.

Roper has finally posted something I agree with.

Why this unwarranted hostility?  His final design was sound, and I
think we should adapt some key elements.  And even if you think it was
not, you shouldn't word it like that.

I don't think there is a mythical "best person for the job" anyway.
Someone who is really into web design will really not be into our
constraints and tool chains.

John has demonstrated remarkable willingness to adapt himself to those,
so I was rather sad to see him overcome by a combination of those and on
top of that a bit of attitude that was in excess of what explaining the
situation strictly would have warranted.

He appeared like a lot more than we could have hoped for until he
finally threw in the towel.


+1

Jan-Peter

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Urs Liska]

Am 11. Dezember 2016 08:07:04 MEZ, schrieb Werner LEMBERG :
>
>>> I just don't think I am the best person for the job.
>>
>> Roper has finally posted something I agree with.
>
>Why this unwarranted hostility?  His final design was sound, and I
>think we should adapt some key elements.  And even if you think it was
>not, you shouldn't word it like that.

+1

>
>
>Werner
>
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Re: New LilyPond website

[David Kastrup]

Werner LEMBERG  writes:

>>> I just don't think I am the best person for the job.
>>
>> Roper has finally posted something I agree with.
>
> Why this unwarranted hostility?  His final design was sound, and I
> think we should adapt some key elements.  And even if you think it was
> not, you shouldn't word it like that.

I don't think there is a mythical "best person for the job" anyway.
Someone who is really into web design will really not be into our
constraints and tool chains.

John has demonstrated remarkable willingness to adapt himself to those,
so I was rather sad to see him overcome by a combination of those and on
top of that a bit of attitude that was in excess of what explaining the
situation strictly would have warranted.

He appeared like a lot more than we could have hoped for until he
finally threw in the towel.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> I just don't think I am the best person for the job.
>
> Roper has finally posted something I agree with.

Why this unwarranted hostility?  His final design was sound, and I
think we should adapt some key elements.  And even if you think it was
not, you shouldn't word it like that.


Werner

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Ivan Kuznetsov]

Roper has finally posted something I agree with.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 2:29 PM, John Roper  wrote:
> I just don't think
> I am the best person for the job.

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Simon Albrecht]

On 07.12.2016 23:01, John Roper wrote:

Am 07.12.2016 um 11:24 schrieb Phil Holmes:
it would be too much effort to fix something so minor

> From my naive point of view, there is something inherently wrong with a

website system if it is too much effort to correct a typo...
Joram

LOL doesn't this sound familiar?


I’d be sure it was a conscious allusion.
Best, Simon

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Re: New LilyPond website

[John Roper]

>>Am 07.12.2016 um 11:24 schrieb Phil Holmes:
>> it would be too much effort to fix something so minor

>From my naive point of view, there is something inherently wrong with a
>website system if it is too much effort to correct a typo...

>Joram

LOL doesn't this sound familiar?

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Paul]

On 12/03/2016 04:24 PM, Graham Percival wrote:


On Thu, Dec 01, 2016 at 08:10:17PM -0500, Paul wrote:

I just wish that working with texinfo (for the website) was more intuitive
for contributors who know HTML but not texinfo.  For example, an HTML
element with an id and also a number of classes, all used for styling it
with CSS.  I don't know if you can generate that HTML element (with both id
and classes) from texinfo with our current setup.

Here's an example from web.texi:

@divId{quickSummary}
LilyPond is a music engraving program, devoted to producing the
highest-quality sheet music possible.  It brings the aesthetics of
traditionally engraved music to computer printouts.  LilyPond is free
software and part of the @uref{http://gnu.org,GNU Project}.

@divClass{align-right}
Read more in our @ref{Introduction}!

@divEnd
@divEnd


Yes, this works fine here since two divs are needed.  There doesn't seem 
to be a way to produce a single div with both an id and classes (as is 
routine in HTML).  Ideally we'd have a single macro for divs that let 
you assign an id (or not) and classes (or not) to the div. That would be 
more intuitive for those used to HTML.



The macros could be easily extended to add multiple classes (if they
don't do that already; I can't recall).


The uses of divClass in the itexi files appear to have just a single 
class, but I took a look at the divClass macro in common-macros.itexi 
and tested it and it already works for multiple classes:


@divClass {first-class second-class}

And looking at the other macros I see how to write a macro that creates 
a div with ID and classes:


@div {an-id,first-class second-class}

I'll post a proposal on the dev list and/or prepare a patch.

Cheers,
-Paul



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Re: New LilyPond website

[Federico Bruni]

Il 2016-12-03 11:38 Urs Liska ha scritto:
Am 3. Dezember 2016 11:42:35 MEZ, schrieb Federico Bruni 
:
Il giorno gio 1 dic 2016 alle 1:48, John Roper 



ha scritto:

Why specifically do we *need* to use textinfo? If I could make a new
system that would auto generate the docs that works with the current
system would you use it?


Good question, if limited to the website (don't touch the
documentation, as it's extremely complex).
What about discussing the constraints and requirements of a different
build system for the website? If such a discussion was encouraging, 
I'd


be happy to try to find a solution and hopefully work with other
persons to make it possible.
At least we would have a concise list of requirements for the next
person who will offer to renovate the website.


I would also be in favour of this.
Maybe it would be good to have a Wiki page for outlining such a
requirements doc?

A suitable place for this would be the LilyPond clone on Github.



Let's first discuss it on lilypond-devel.
I'll start a new thread tomorrow.

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Jean-Charles Malahieude]

Le 03/12/2016 à 22:28, Graham Percival a écrit :

On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 07:50:50PM +0100, Jean-Charles Malahieude wrote:

I've already given it a try, but get stopped by some errors I don't know how
to resolve (I've no knowledge about perl). Three patches are available for
anybody willing to help me… I can compile the English version, except that I
don't get the TOC sidebar.


Hmm, sounds like there's some duplicated effort there.  In July
2015, we created:
https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-texinfo
to try to update lilypond-texi2html-init.



Which has not moved since August 23 (2015)!
I just give it a try as texinfo evoluates. Just refer to issue 1000.

Cheers,
Jean-Charles


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Re: New LilyPond website

[David Kastrup]

Karlin High  writes:

>>From: Graham Percival 
>>Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 3:35 PM
>>   
>>If there was a single mentor for the new contributor, and if other
>>people didn't make well-intentioned but ultimately misleading
>>suggestions, we could have avoided 95% of this mess.
>
> Dunno quite, but I gather you have far more experience in this area.
>
> To me, a good web developer is someone with the technical skill of a
> computer programmer and the creativity and "style sense" of a graphic
> designer. I think people with those skill sets are rare indeed if they
> take kindly to being told how to do their own work in somebody else's
> way, and how and why their preferred methods are unsuitable for the
> job at hand. Couldn't offering a mentor leave the impression that the
> LilyPond community thinks they don't know their stuff?

More like they don't know our stuff.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 04:06:53AM +, Karlin High wrote:
> >From: Graham Percival 
> >Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 3:35 PM
> >   
> >If there was a single mentor for the new contributor, and if other
> >people didn't make well-intentioned but ultimately misleading
> >suggestions, we could have avoided 95% of this mess.
> 
> Dunno quite, but I gather you have far more experience in this area.

:)

> To me, a good web developer is someone with the technical skill
> of a computer programmer and the creativity and "style sense" of
> a graphic designer. I think people with those skill sets are
> rare indeed if they take kindly to being told how to do their
> own work in somebody else's way, and how and why their preferred
> methods are unsuitable for the job at hand.

Going by your definition of "web developer", I do not think they
would be a suitable match for the LilyPond project.  That is not
to cast doubt on their skills, and certainly not on their
employability or desirability for a large number of other
organizations.

This is a community project -- and in particular, a community
project of people who are attracted to highly polished music
engraving.  The ability to communicate well and navigate our loose
social organization is much more important than design ability.
This may well result in a less flashy website design, but I will
*enthusiastically* embrace that trade-off if it makes our existing
developers feel more positive about the project.

I am absolutely serious about that final clause.  Most people do
not realize how few people are working on LilyPond, and how much
more difficult it becomes when experienced developers leave.

> Couldn't offering a mentor leave the impression that the
> LilyPond community thinks they don't know their stuff?

I chose the word "mentor" because that's the word that Debian
uses.  Nobody can just sign up and start uploading packages; you
must have an existing Debian developer to mentor you, approve your
changes, and upload material on your behalf until you are deemed
to be sufficiently experienced with their particular system and
policies.

I'm certainly open to using another word if it can convey a
similar meaning without any unintended connotations.

> Maybe there's a parallel here: how about having the lilypond.org
> web development done by a current LilyPond documentation
> contributor (if any can be spared for the work)

heh.

I mentioned earlier "how few people are working on LilyPond"?  I
do not believe [1] that there are any dedicated LilyPond
documentation contributors at the moment.  Oh, there's a few
people who can make a few edits -- when they're not reporting
bugs, building releases, testing proposed patches for bugs, etc
etc.

There is a huge backlog of tasks.  Some of them are quite
complicated, of course, but many could be done by any reasonably
intelligent person who is willing to spend 3-5 hours a week
helping out.  And yes, improving the website CSS is one such
simple task [2].

[1] if there are such people, my apologies; I'm still getting up
to speed.

[2] For example, we currently define the font size in two places
in terms of pixels, instead of em.  So, task 1: replace "19px"
with "1.25em" in lilypond-website.css.  Then test on a few
different browsers.  There are websites which will let you test
web designs in browsers, and even on mobile devices.  If the
result looks ok, we'll get that patch put into operation.

Is this difficult?  Not at all.  That's one of the great tragedies
of our project.  If I took all the time I spent reading and
writing emails in this thread, and instead worked on the website
CSS, most of the problems would be fixed by now.  However, that
wouldn't help with the lack of contributors to LilyPond in the
long run.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Karlin High]

>From: Graham Percival 
>Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 3:35 PM
>   
>If there was a single mentor for the new contributor, and if other
>people didn't make well-intentioned but ultimately misleading
>suggestions, we could have avoided 95% of this mess.

Dunno quite, but I gather you have far more experience in this area.

To me, a good web developer is someone with the technical skill of a computer 
programmer and the creativity and "style sense" of a graphic designer. I think 
people with those skill sets are rare indeed if they take kindly to being told 
how to do their own work in somebody else's way, and how and why their 
preferred methods are unsuitable for the job at hand. Couldn't offering a 
mentor leave the impression that the LilyPond community thinks they don't know 
their stuff?

This reminds me of a story from the early days of Drake Software, a major 
player in the USA income tax preparation market. Warren Drake, son of Phil the 
founder says, "We found it was much easier to take tax accountants and teach 
them computer programming than it was to take computer programmers and teach 
them about taxes." Maybe there's a parallel here: how about having the 
lilypond.org web development done by a current LilyPond documentation 
contributor (if any can be spared for the work) rather than trying to have an 
accomplished web developer learn the intricacies of the LilyPond documentation 
system? Or, maybe that is the current situation?
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA
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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 03:39:58PM -0800, Graham Percival wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 11:08:00PM +0100, Simon Albrecht wrote:
> > On 03.12.2016 22:35, Graham Percival wrote:
> > >A wiki is never the right answer.
> > 
> > Please elaborate :-) Because it’s too open for everyone to alter?
> 
> Because "somebody else" will fix it.

PS: the fancy psychology term for this is "bystander effect".  I'm
not at all the first person to observe this behaviour!  Although
most of that literature is focused on how a person or group of
people acts in an emergency situation, not a mundane task such as
updating documentation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 11:08:00PM +0100, Simon Albrecht wrote:
> On 03.12.2016 22:35, Graham Percival wrote:
> >A wiki is never the right answer.
> 
> Please elaborate :-) Because it’s too open for everyone to alter?

Because "somebody else" will fix it.  Also, it adds yet one more
place that people are supposed to look at.

We tried two different wikis in the early days of LilyPond; they
were never sufficiently updated to be worthwhile.  LSR was a third
attempt at "handwavy community-edited content", but it was never
the success that the initial proponents suggested.

Diffuse responsibility begs people to think "oh well, somebody
else will do it".  In a project as huge as wikipedia, sure, if
0.0001% of readers get involved, it works.  But even in projects
as big as Debian or Ubutu, a wiki soon becomes riddled with
outdated info.

That's a mistake that the Grand Documentation Project went to
great lengths to avoid.  Individual volunteers took responsibility
for specific portions of the docs; they got the job done, moved on
to another portion, and repeated.  The results are beautiful.
Even the Bug Squad was organized on similar lines.  If we merely
had a pool of 5 people who processed emails, I'm sure it would end
up being a mess.  Instead, each person has a specific day(s), and
that system worked.  (At least for the first few years; not
certain how it's doing now.)

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Simon Albrecht]

On 03.12.2016 22:35, Graham Percival wrote:

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 08:45:30PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:

Karlin High  writes:


I like Urs Liska's idea of having a wiki or contributor guide entry for
web developer work.

Yes, it makes sense.

A wiki is never the right answer.


Please elaborate :-) Because it’s too open for everyone to alter?

Best, Simon

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 08:45:30PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Karlin High  writes:
> 
> > I like Urs Liska's idea of having a wiki or contributor guide entry for 
> > web developer work.
> 
> Yes, it makes sense.

A wiki is never the right answer.

Karlin's suggestion of adding a warnings to the Contributor guide
is good.  Even better would be if we had a mentorship program.  If
there was a single mentor for the new contributor, and if other
people didn't make well-intentioned but ultimately misleading
suggestions, we could have avoided 95% of this mess.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 07:50:50PM +0100, Jean-Charles Malahieude wrote:
> I've already given it a try, but get stopped by some errors I don't know how
> to resolve (I've no knowledge about perl). Three patches are available for
> anybody willing to help me… I can compile the English version, except that I
> don't get the TOC sidebar.

Hmm, sounds like there's some duplicated effort there.  In July
2015, we created:
https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-texinfo
to try to update lilypond-texi2html-init.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Dec 01, 2016 at 08:10:17PM -0500, Paul wrote:
> I just wish that working with texinfo (for the website) was more intuitive
> for contributors who know HTML but not texinfo.  For example, an HTML
> element with an id and also a number of classes, all used for styling it
> with CSS.  I don't know if you can generate that HTML element (with both id
> and classes) from texinfo with our current setup.

Here's an example from web.texi:

@divId{quickSummary}
LilyPond is a music engraving program, devoted to producing the
highest-quality sheet music possible.  It brings the aesthetics of
traditionally engraved music to computer printouts.  LilyPond is free
software and part of the @uref{http://gnu.org,GNU Project}.

@divClass{align-right}
Read more in our @ref{Introduction}!

@divEnd
@divEnd


The macros could be easily extended to add multiple classes (if they
don't do that already; I can't recall).

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Noeck]

Am 03.12.2016 um 11:42 schrieb Federico Bruni:
> At least we would have a concise list of requirements for the next
> person who will offer to renovate the website.

A good suggestion.

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Re: New LilyPond website

[David Kastrup]

Karlin High  writes:

> On 12/3/2016 4:42 AM, Federico Bruni wrote:
>> John, you resisted more than I would have expected. I wonder if we'll 
>> ever see "the best person for _this_ job".
>
> And, I have been admiring John's patience and flexibility. He faced more 
> resistance than I would have expected. Work on the website has an 
> oil-and-water requirement - modernize the website by building on systems 
> that are ancient by the web-development standards of today.
>
> In the 2 website-redesign discussions I've witnessed so far, I get the 
> impression that the LilyPond community is a bit of a tough audience for 
> web developers.

Absolutely.  Usually a web designer expects to bring his own tools to
the job and do it with them.  With LilyPond, that would cut ties with a
lot of other LilyPond technology.

It's sort of a "rent-a-cook" business where the cook has to use the
tools he finds in the house, and they are basically leftovers from a mad
genius a century ago.  Very good for what they are, but stone age and
partly hard to recognize for what they are.

> I don't mean that in a bad way; it's just that people here are more
> typesetters than graphic designers.

Make no mistake: it is a bad job, and it gets worse the more of a
professional you are.  Hobbyists are more tolerant to learning absurd
but good tools for a one-off job.

I also have been admiring John's patience and flexibility, and it is a
pity that the situation finally got the better of him.  I hope it isn't
the last word, though.

> I like Urs Liska's idea of having a wiki or contributor guide entry for 
> web developer work.

Yes, it makes sense.

-- 
David Kastrup

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