Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Rick Troth]

On 08/16/2016 04:55 PM, Marcy Cortes wrote:
> Larry wrote:
> "I would look at your backup mechanism and make sure it is compatible before 
> you commit to it."
>
> Thanks Larry, that answers that!!

A note about volume management:

Btrfs can do multi-volume backing store. In English, a Btrfs filesystem
can span multiple partitions, multiple logical volumes, or multiple
LUNs, or multiple DASD, whatever. (Think *PVs* in the LVM sense.) This
is appealing. Btrfs was criticized early on, that's a "layering
violation
".
Combining volume management with the filesystem creates a storage
monolith. Some people aren't bothered. Maybe you're not either. But it
bugs the snot outta me.

On the other side, Btrfs does subvolumes. (Sort of like *LVs* in LVM
land, but more tightly coupled with the monolith.) Here too, some like
it. I don't.

For a historical example of a tool/subsystem which stretched across too
many layers, see EVMS
.

_LVM2 is a better tool for volume management._ Y'all have heard me rant
against partitioning. I avoid partitioning now thanks to LVM. (LVs can
grow or shrink. Harder to do with partitions.) A logical volume can
house EXT2, 3, 4, Btrfs, XFS, VFAT, ISO9660, UDF, HFS, CMSFS*, swap,
anything. Physical volumes (PVs) backing a volume group (VG) can be
added, migrated, removed. (We say "drained" in mainframe speak.) Very nice!

Btrfs can be made to play well in an LVM context. Watch out for the
defaults. Keep it simple. Btrfs wants to show you what it can do,
including PV and SV tricks. (Save it for the Olympics, please!) I've got
one system with Btrfs snapshots creeping up constantly.

My recommendation is that you implement LVM. Use it for (almost)
everything. (Best to leave boot disks separate, outside of LVM, for a
lot of reasons I won't enumerate.) Go ahead and do Btrfs but keep it in
"just a filesystem" mode so you can switch when needed. In English,
_force Btrfs to behave_ in your LVM environment.

And avoid partitioning when it doesn't really buy you anything. (Too
many layers. Too much kun-foo-zhun.)

Keep it simple.

*CMSFS ... okay ... you wouldn't normally want to put it in a logical
volume, /but you could/.

-- R; <><




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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Marcy Cortes]

Rick wrote:


"Where possible, keep your business apps above the op sys. Curious what backup 
methods (or products) would have trouble because of a different filesystem."

We do and it's Netbackup.  It may well work but it is currently has a note that 
says unsupported.   Many times that means "untested", but same difference to us.

Marcy

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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Rick Troth]

On 08/16/2016 04:55 PM, Marcy Cortes wrote:
> Larry wrote:
> "I would look at your backup mechanism and make sure it is compatible before 
> you commit to it."
>
> Thanks Larry, that answers that!!

Where possible, keep your business apps above the op sys. Curious what
backup methods (or products) would have trouble because of a different
filesystem. (This /does not mean/ don't check that your
mechanism-of-choice is compatible, just to be clear.) I use RSYNC and
would be shocked if it had a problem with me switching among EXT2/3/4,
BTRFS, XFS, new-fangled-FS-of-the-future. That's just unacceptable.

I've been "kicking the tires" with btrfs and xfs. I confess to not
having measured performance. (Have been more concerned first with
manageability. Subvolumes have been more hassle than help. See following
note.)

The problem with EXT3/4 is mostly that the EXT*FS family has fallen out
of popularity. They're rock solid. They just work. Lead developer in
that family has said btrfs is the new direction. So you're stuck going
with Btrfs if you intend to follow the EXT2/3/4 line. But there's
development time needed. How long to wait? SUSE decided to bless Btrfs
last year. Btrfs borrows some ideas from ReiserFS which died when its
author ... well ... Google it. SUSE favored ReiserFS back in the day. I
was never satisfied with ReiserFS in terms of reliability. (Not sure if
this impinges on Btrfs, but some of the default behavior blew the rule
of least astonishment. Unusual for SUSE. I get that kind of crap from
the other distros often, but /rarely/ from SUSE.)

Btrfs has the nice feature of in-place conversion from EXT2/3/4. Cool!

XFS has limits (and doesn't have the EXT2/3/4 connection), but is more
mature. The only performance guide I have says that XFS compares well
against EXT4. XFS runs on more operating systems than Btrfs. (But less
than EXT2/3/4, which can even work on Windoze.)

A note about volume management ... let me put that in a separate message.

-- R; <><




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Re: Logs from Operator

[shoo]

hi

We haven´t IBM Operations Manager for z/VM.  We are implementing a REXX
called by PROP to send a  UDP  message  directly to z/OS.


Thanks for the answer!
jp

2016-08-15 12:56 GMT-03:00 Tracy Dean :

> > From: joão paulo limberger (shoo) 
> > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
> > Date: 08/13/2016 10:32 AM
> > Subject: Logs from Operator
> > Sent by: Linux on 390 Port 
> >
> > Hi All!
> >
> > I want to receive in a linux VM  all the  messages sends to the console
> of
> > the user Operator  ...
> >
> > What is the best way to do this?
> >
> > Thanks!!!
> > jp
>
> If you have IBM Operations Manager for z/VM, you can easily capture all
> messages to OPERATOR (or any other userid) and send them to a syslog
> daemon running somewhere in your enterprise, including one running on a
> Linux guest.  Feel free to contact me for more info.
>
> Tracy Dean, IBM
> t...@us.ibm.com
>
>
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Rumi

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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Marcy Cortes]

Thanks, Aria.  Good to know!

-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Aria 
Bamdad
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:27 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: [LINUX-390] SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

Marcy you also asked about xfs.  We use xfs for our data storage volumes (user 
data file systems) and have been very happy with it.  It is faster than ext3 
and much faster with respect to fsck at boot time.  Larger ext3 file systems 
would take a very long time to fsck at boot time and were causing us problems 
if they were due for a check.

Aria

-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcy 
Cortes
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:46 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

Was wondering what other people have decided to do for their file systems in 
SLES 12.
Stable tried and try ext3 or new function (and more space) with btrfs.   Any
use of xfs?

Marcy


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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Aria Bamdad]

Marcy you also asked about xfs.  We use xfs for our data storage volumes
(user data file systems) and have been very happy with it.  It is faster
than ext3 and much faster with respect to fsck at boot time.  Larger ext3
file systems would take a very long time to fsck at boot time and were
causing us problems if they were due for a check.

Aria

-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcy
Cortes
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:46 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

Was wondering what other people have decided to do for their file systems in
SLES 12.
Stable tried and try ext3 or new function (and more space) with btrfs.   Any
use of xfs?

Marcy


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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Davis, Larry (National VM Capability)]

The Command processing for btrfs file systems uses the btrfs command so if you 
have procedures already in place for LVM then those procedure may have to be 
updated that’s all.


Larry Davis,
VM Capability


-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of van 
Sleeuwen, Berry
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 4:50 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

Hi Larry,

Can you explain your changed procedures a bit more? What are the 
considerations, pitfalls etc?

We are going to install new (SLES12) machines in the near future and, just like 
Marcy, I am still considering what would be the best option. Either for system 
volumes (think of cloning systems) or user volumes (extending, reducing, 
performance etc).

Met vriendelijke groet/With kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Berry van 
Sleeuwen

-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Davis, 
Larry (National VM Capability)
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 8:59 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

We are using btrfs and it just requires some changes to adding DASD and 
expanding file systems.

I would look at your backup mechanism and make sure it is compatible before you 
commit to it.


Larry Davis,
VM Capability


-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcy 
Cortes
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:53 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

"tried and true" that is.
darn autocorrect

Marcy

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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[van Sleeuwen, Berry]

Hi Dimitri,

Granted, Mark already mentioned this wouldn't be applicable to SLES12. But can 
you explain your comments?

I guess no one would accept degrading performance or lengthy downtimes.  So I 
am curious as to why this would be an issue with BTRFS (being the new 
"improved" filesystem of choice).

Met vriendelijke groet/With kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Berry van Sleeuwen


-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Dimitri 
John Ledkov
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 9:17 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

Hello,

On 16 August 2016 at 19:45, Marcy Cortes  wrote:
> Was wondering what other people have decided to do for their file systems in 
> SLES 12.
> Stable tried and try ext3 or new function (and more space) with btrfs.   Any 
> use of xfs?
>

It is a different kind of pokemon.

Do you have software that will take advantage of it?

Are you happy with degrading over time performance?

Can you afford downtime / reduced performance for rebalancing?

--
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Dimitri.

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your request.

Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[van Sleeuwen, Berry]

Hi Larry,

Can you explain your changed procedures a bit more? What are the 
considerations, pitfalls etc?

We are going to install new (SLES12) machines in the near future and, just like 
Marcy, I am still considering what would be the best option. Either for system 
volumes (think of cloning systems) or user volumes (extending, reducing, 
performance etc).

Met vriendelijke groet/With kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Berry van Sleeuwen

-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Davis, 
Larry (National VM Capability)
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 8:59 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

We are using btrfs and it just requires some changes to adding DASD and 
expanding file systems.

I would look at your backup mechanism and make sure it is compatible before you 
commit to it.


Larry Davis,
VM Capability


-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcy 
Cortes
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:53 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

"tried and true" that is.
darn autocorrect

Marcy

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exclusively apply. The Terms of Delivery shall be promptly submitted to you on 
your request.

Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Marcy Cortes]

Larry wrote:
"I would look at your backup mechanism and make sure it is compatible before 
you commit to it."

Thanks Larry, that answers that!!

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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Mark Post]

>>> On 8/16/2016 at 03:17 PM, Dimitri John Ledkov  wrote: 
> Hello,
> 
> On 16 August 2016 at 19:45, Marcy Cortes  
> wrote:
>> Was wondering what other people have decided to do for their file systems in 
> SLES 12.
>> Stable tried and try ext3 or new function (and more space) with btrfs.   Any 
> use of xfs?
>>
> 
> It is a different kind of pokemon.
> 
> Do you have software that will take advantage of it?
> 
> Are you happy with degrading over time performance?
> 
> Can you afford downtime / reduced performance for rebalancing?

None of which applies to what SUSE ships in SLES12 and later.


Mark Post

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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Michael MacIsaac]

We have kicked the tires of btrfs, but are still staying with ext3 for now.

-Mike MacIsaac

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Dimitri John Ledkov 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On 16 August 2016 at 19:45, Marcy Cortes 
> wrote:
> > Was wondering what other people have decided to do for their file
> systems in SLES 12.
> > Stable tried and try ext3 or new function (and more space) with btrfs.
>  Any use of xfs?
> >
>
> It is a different kind of pokemon.
>
> Do you have software that will take advantage of it?
>
> Are you happy with degrading over time performance?
>
> Can you afford downtime / reduced performance for rebalancing?
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Dimitri.
>
> --
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>

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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Dimitri John Ledkov]

Hello,

On 16 August 2016 at 19:45, Marcy Cortes  wrote:
> Was wondering what other people have decided to do for their file systems in 
> SLES 12.
> Stable tried and try ext3 or new function (and more space) with btrfs.   Any 
> use of xfs?
>

It is a different kind of pokemon.

Do you have software that will take advantage of it?

Are you happy with degrading over time performance?

Can you afford downtime / reduced performance for rebalancing?

--
Regards,

Dimitri.

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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Davis, Larry (National VM Capability)]

We are using btrfs and it just requires some changes to adding DASD and 
expanding file systems.

I would look at your backup mechanism and make sure it is compatible before you 
commit to it.
 

Larry Davis,
VM Capability


-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcy 
Cortes
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:53 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

"tried and true" that is.
darn autocorrect

Marcy

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Re: SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Marcy Cortes]

"tried and true" that is.
darn autocorrect

Marcy

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SLES 12 - to btrfs or not to btrfs

[Marcy Cortes]

Was wondering what other people have decided to do for their file systems in 
SLES 12.
Stable tried and try ext3 or new function (and more space) with btrfs.   Any 
use of xfs?

Marcy


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Re: qeth.5cb8a3: 0.0.0700: The qeth device is not configured for the OSI layer required by z/VM

[Christer Solskogen]

False alarm, folks!
It seems like the ftp-server and the guest is *not* on the same
network, and that for some reason the vswitch is configured as layer
2.
Sorry for the noise!

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Michael Weiner
 wrote:
> Interesting. I had an issue when upgrading from a service pack to SLES11 SP4, 
> after the upgrade I had to reconfigure the network with yast.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 16, 2016, at 08:47, Christer Solskogen  
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is a fresh install.
>> The weird thing is that if I configure the nic as a layer 2, I can the
>> network "up". And by up I mean that I can ping the host from my
>> machine, but the guest itself cannot get to my ftp-server which it
>> *should* be able to do as it is on the same network.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:35 PM, Michael Weiner
>>  wrote:
>>> Hi Christer,
>>>
>>> Are you upgrading or fresh install?
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
 On Aug 16, 2016, at 08:26, Christer Solskogen 
  wrote:

 Hi!

 I'm trying to install SLES11SP4 on a machine on one of our z/VMs, but
 I can't seem to get past the error mentioned in subject when I
 configure the network.

 As far as I know, our vswitches are all layer 3 (how can I check if it
 is?) - and even if I configure it as layer 2, the network does not
 work as it really should. I've installed many linuxes on zVM now, and
 I've never seen this problem before.

 (z/VM is 6.2)

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>>>
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>>
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>
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Re: qeth.5cb8a3: 0.0.0700: The qeth device is not configured for the OSI layer required by z/VM

[Michael Weiner]

Interesting. I had an issue when upgrading from a service pack to SLES11 SP4, 
after the upgrade I had to reconfigure the network with yast. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 16, 2016, at 08:47, Christer Solskogen  
> wrote:
> 
> This is a fresh install.
> The weird thing is that if I configure the nic as a layer 2, I can the
> network "up". And by up I mean that I can ping the host from my
> machine, but the guest itself cannot get to my ftp-server which it
> *should* be able to do as it is on the same network.
> 
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:35 PM, Michael Weiner
>  wrote:
>> Hi Christer,
>> 
>> Are you upgrading or fresh install?
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 16, 2016, at 08:26, Christer Solskogen 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi!
>>> 
>>> I'm trying to install SLES11SP4 on a machine on one of our z/VMs, but
>>> I can't seem to get past the error mentioned in subject when I
>>> configure the network.
>>> 
>>> As far as I know, our vswitches are all layer 3 (how can I check if it
>>> is?) - and even if I configure it as layer 2, the network does not
>>> work as it really should. I've installed many linuxes on zVM now, and
>>> I've never seen this problem before.
>>> 
>>> (z/VM is 6.2)
>>> 
>>> --
>>> For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or 
>>> visit
>>> http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
>>> --
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>>> http://wiki.linuxvm.org/
>> 
>> --
>> For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or 
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>> --
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>> http://wiki.linuxvm.org/
> 
> --
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Re: qeth.5cb8a3: 0.0.0700: The qeth device is not configured for the OSI layer required by z/VM

[Christer Solskogen]

This is a fresh install.
The weird thing is that if I configure the nic as a layer 2, I can the
network "up". And by up I mean that I can ping the host from my
machine, but the guest itself cannot get to my ftp-server which it
*should* be able to do as it is on the same network.

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:35 PM, Michael Weiner
 wrote:
> Hi Christer,
>
> Are you upgrading or fresh install?
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 16, 2016, at 08:26, Christer Solskogen  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> I'm trying to install SLES11SP4 on a machine on one of our z/VMs, but
>> I can't seem to get past the error mentioned in subject when I
>> configure the network.
>>
>> As far as I know, our vswitches are all layer 3 (how can I check if it
>> is?) - and even if I configure it as layer 2, the network does not
>> work as it really should. I've installed many linuxes on zVM now, and
>> I've never seen this problem before.
>>
>> (z/VM is 6.2)
>>
>> --
>> For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or 
>> visit
>> http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
>> --
>> For more information on Linux on System z, visit
>> http://wiki.linuxvm.org/
>
> --
> For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit
> http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
> --
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> http://wiki.linuxvm.org/

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Re: qeth.5cb8a3: 0.0.0700: The qeth device is not configured for the OSI layer required by z/VM

[Michael Weiner]

Hi Christer,

Are you upgrading or fresh install?


Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 16, 2016, at 08:26, Christer Solskogen  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> I'm trying to install SLES11SP4 on a machine on one of our z/VMs, but
> I can't seem to get past the error mentioned in subject when I
> configure the network.
> 
> As far as I know, our vswitches are all layer 3 (how can I check if it
> is?) - and even if I configure it as layer 2, the network does not
> work as it really should. I've installed many linuxes on zVM now, and
> I've never seen this problem before.
> 
> (z/VM is 6.2)
> 
> --
> For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit
> http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
> --
> For more information on Linux on System z, visit
> http://wiki.linuxvm.org/

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qeth.5cb8a3: 0.0.0700: The qeth device is not configured for the OSI layer required by z/VM

[Christer Solskogen]

Hi!

I'm trying to install SLES11SP4 on a machine on one of our z/VMs, but
I can't seem to get past the error mentioned in subject when I
configure the network.

As far as I know, our vswitches are all layer 3 (how can I check if it
is?) - and even if I configure it as layer 2, the network does not
work as it really should. I've installed many linuxes on zVM now, and
I've never seen this problem before.

(z/VM is 6.2)

--
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send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit
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Re: DASD usage

[Tore Agblad]

We use a mix.
ECK DASD for the system and also for high attention data (some systems with db2 
bundled)
Because it's easy and safe to handles, we use VM Secure. And really stable.

Some customer data is on NFS mounted NAS.

And we are just starting to use FCP, via defined EDEV. Will use it for customer 
data.

Since we use SSI, and also at need really moving guests between our two 
systems, you have to take this into consideration when choosing disk type. It 
depends, as usually :-)

Tore Agblad
Infrastructure Architect - Mainframe zOpen
HCL Technologies Ltd. ( Former Volvo IT )
DA1S
Gunnar Engellaus väg 3, 418 78 Gothenburg, Sweden 
Direct: +46 31 3233569
Mob: +46 76 5533569
www.hcltech.com
www.hcl.com


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-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Gentry, 
Steve
Sent: den 15 augusti 2016 4:50
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: DASD usage

There are at least 3 combinations of DASD usage for Linux implementation.
They are:

1)  Everything on 3390 storage

2)  Everything on non-3390, external disk via a fiber card

3)  A combination of 1 & 2



What are the thoughts on using these? Is one preferred over the other?

Thanks,

Steve



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