Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 18:35:39 +0300 Lior Kesos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>How would you do it, if you had to contend with > >>thousands of CVs? > Ask for txt file format cv's and ... GOOD! just asking for txt file format would definitely cut the clueless replies by 50% (those who can only write in MS-word and don't know to "save-as" text. Now you just have to ask for LF terminated lines and you are right on target :-) -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron The use of Windoze cripples the mind; its use should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence. (With apologies to Edsger W. Dijkstra) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
On Mon, 2003-07-07 at 19:48, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: > Meir Michanie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I quit univeristy twice and I am partialy proud of it. I have to quit the first time at 3th year and second time for monetary reasons.At 4th year. Now married and bussy working I do not have the time and the money to go throught it all over again. I work at an academic institute where they teach Soft. engineering. And I know for sure that specially in software, many teachers (Phds) are below the knowledge of the students. When I hired people in the past I check what they knew and I test them on new scenarios. There are people that are constant and may take them many years to get the knowledge that others can build in a few. I am talking of self experience, after I flew an airplane, did some acrobatics and land it on my first wet hour. AND AFTER I learn the theory by myself. (I got a distinction diploma). The main point is: look at the replies, how many people in the list consider they self suitable besides the Bsd or even whenb they have it they found it irrelevant. When Lerner was looking for that qualify multitask guy, I almost could see that they where using my CV as a guide (joke). then Someone on the list point out that the guy should ask for more than 10k, I think that today if you ask for a guy of a knowledge of 4 guys pay him at least the price of two. At an interview I went more than a year ago, I was found very qualify for a jack of all trades sys admin. then the question came: Why did you jump so many jobs in a short period ?you may agree with me that in the last six years and in high tech it was not like working at a bank 30 years ago.) I pointed out that the variance of knowledge that they where demanding was imposible to be build at one job. You know what it feels like? * The company ask for a man with the knowledge of 4. * When you show them that you are the man whorthy 5 starts the negociation. * They tell you how hard is the market, blah blah, they ofer you 1/2 your last salary.( where they closed and you did not get the last two salaries) * If you like the Technological challenge you may agree on 3/4. Now do the maths. P.S.: I love my current job, I was offered more from Intel almost two years ago and I had the opportunity to say NO. -- Meir Michanie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
On Monday 07 July 2003 10:52, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: > > One possibility (not necessarily applicable for this one) is that the > > job involves work abroad. There are countries that do not give work > > permits unless you have a degree (as a proof of special expertise that > > can not be replaced with locals). > > But that only applies to PhD's or the equivalent, not to lower degrees. > Depends where. In Germany for instance they require any degree (even BSc) and some bla bla from the company that needs you there. At least that was the case a couple of years a go. It also used to be a requirement for a US work permit but I don't know what are their current rules as they did change a lot recently, as you know. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Oleg Goldshmidt wrote on 2003-07-07: > For the record, I do *not* have a CS degree, so I probably would not > qualify. > And while we attack the "B.Sc." part, the "CS" part is also problematic. I will soon have an EE degree, yet I learnt almost only programming courses (to the degree possible, pun intended ;) and my free time was mostly spent on programming... -- Beni Cherniavsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> If I don't hack on it, who will? And if I don't GPL it, what am I? And if it itches, why not now? [With apologies to Hilel ;] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Meir Michanie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I quit univeristy twice and I am partialy proud of it. While this has no direct relevance to the B.Sc. dilemma, I suggest you don't mention that to your next potential employer. A question that jumps to my head immediately is, will you be equally proud of quitting my company at some critical stage of development? There may be a number of reasons why a company will want to hire a university graduate in a relevant field. One clue may be arrived at by considering the difference between a person who has graduated successfully, and another who took all the same courses as a "shome'a hofshi". The difference is ... the exams. You may think the exam system is good, or you may think it is bad, but there is a certain value in preparing yourself to this hurdle (maybe especially if the type of the exam is not to your liking) and passing it. For the record, I do *not* have a CS degree, so I probably would not qualify. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Herouth Maoz wrote: So, how do you hire people? Well, in the days when programmers were worth their weight in gold, you had to somehow test all the four applicants that sent you Programmers today are indeed not worth their weight in gold - but *excellent* programmers are. In fact, I claim that excellent programmers are worth more now - no one has the money to waste on half-bad ones anymore and you are actualy accepted to show results. Does the phrase: "I'm not rich enough to buy cheaply" sounds famielir? CVs. But these days, that you have 4000 applicants for every job, including ones that don't even fit *one* of the requirements, you have to find heuristics that will cut the numbers down to manageable size which you *can* test. A BSc is such a heuristic. So it discriminates against the few clueful non-academics. How would you do it, if you had to contend with thousands of CVs? Again, excellent programmers have not become any less scarce - just the noise has grown. The general way to sift through 4000 application is to not ask for them to begin with and instead to pre-select the people and places that you choose to send your message to. For example, by posting to lists lke linux-il, as opposed to the general press, for example or simply hire a proffesional to do it for you. Gilad = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
How would you do it, if you had to contend with thousands of CVs? Ask for txt file format cv's and use regex with you're favorite scripting language ?:) -- Lior Kesos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content Development Team Leader == "Everything should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler" -- Albert Einstein = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Herouth Maoz wrote: So, how do you hire people? Why - post in linux-il of course. Seriously I've hired and interviewed people from the list (all of my peers have been drafted through the list). But currently the policies have changed and I know I could have never hired someone like me(4 years back) today. -- Lior Kesos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content Development Team Leader == "Everything should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler" -- Albert Einstein = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
ביום שני, 7 ביולי 2003, 17:59, Herouth Maoz כתב: > So, how do you hire people? Well, in the days when programmers were worth > their weight in gold, you had to somehow test all the four applicants that > sent you CVs. But these days, that you have 4000 applicants for every job, > including ones that don't even fit *one* of the requirements, you have to > find heuristics that will cut the numbers down to manageable size which you > *can* test. A BSc is such a heuristic. So it discriminates against the few > clueful non-academics. How would you do it, if you had to contend with > thousands of CVs? you have said it yourself: a degree does not mean that you know a shit. and btw: there is a title called BTech, which is very similar to Bsc. some good people have it. > Herouth > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- - diego / The cow is nothing but a machine which \ | makes grass fit for us people to eat. | \ -- John McNulty/ \ ^__^ \ (xx)\___ (__)\ )\/\ U ||w | || || Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Alon Altman wrote: > Are you sure it was a CS degree and not a CS education degree? > -=[ Random Fortune ]=- > The program isn't debugged until the last user is dead. I always thought it was good code if I could understand code I wrote on Friday on Monday morning. :-) Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 972-54-608-069 Do sysadmins count networked sheep? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Quoting Lior Kesos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I've heard many people being more happy with these technical school > graduates for missions that don't require the scaling of the engineers > to be a GUI programmer or a database programmer (whoops just covered 50% > of the market if not more) one does not have to be a rocket scientist. Probably those many people never took a look at their code... Have you seen stored procedures with GOTO statements in them? I have. In fact, structures that emulate while loops with GOTO, when there is need only for an IF because you get exactly one row from the preceding query... And the language does include whiles if they needed it... I'm not even talking about all the HTML crap and Javascript filth that I've had to sift through in my years of web programming. Or content loading. Easy enough task, isn't it? Parsing a text file and putting the proper values into the database. Well, apparently not when you give it to a clueless programmer who does it in Java when she doesn't know Java, and comes up with the ugliest state machine with so many dependencies that if we have to add a field to that file, we need to write the whole thing anew. Or our wap programmer who wrote every program three times to match different display requirements by three cellular providers. Not a clue how to write ifs, never mind using templates. But hey, their things worked. At the time. It's just now that they were all cut back, *I* have to do all the maintenance... Yes, there are counter examples. For example, again in the military, I had to maintain a program in which a couple of older Atudaim (i.e. CS graduates) implemented a serious algorithm of their own devising. They were considered geniuses in that military unit. And it was a complex one. It's only that no-one could ever read it. It was full of q=p, pp=qq++ etc., and the only comment in the program said "And now q gets the value of qq". I swear. However, I maintain my position that there is strong correlation between degree and cluefullness. Also, every single clueful programmer whom I met during the years of work, if he wasn't a CS graduate then, he had become one since then. So it was merely a matter of being good material. So, how do you hire people? Well, in the days when programmers were worth their weight in gold, you had to somehow test all the four applicants that sent you CVs. But these days, that you have 4000 applicants for every job, including ones that don't even fit *one* of the requirements, you have to find heuristics that will cut the numbers down to manageable size which you *can* test. A BSc is such a heuristic. So it discriminates against the few clueful non-academics. How would you do it, if you had to contend with thousands of CVs? Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Idan Sofer wrote: > > She was in no way a clueless person, and she had a CS degree, yet she > couldn't understand what's the hell I was trying to do. Are you sure it was a CS degree and not a CS education degree? Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://alon.wox.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627 DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- The program isn't debugged until the last user is dead. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Lior Kesos wrote on 2003-07-07: > The one things I believe you're missing out on is the ability of the > individual to teach himself. > I have learned out of - > trial and error , > google, > My Peers source, > My Peers advice, > Articles in various developer sites, > plain curiosity and intrest tons more then in my formal education Me too. I'd say anybody with a clue has learned more by himself. Proof: I can name only a handful courses that gave me any clue ;). > The ability to learn alone is not something that you learn in the > university and I think is one of the most importent skills that any > wannabe programmer/IT proffesional should ever have. > Well, I've learnt alone in my university years (now finishing) more than any time before ;-). It's probably a coincidece with my heavier use of the net and heavier exposure to FOSS. In any case, but how do you assess this ability? Perhaps by having the person list things he has learnt outside formal education. -- Beni Cherniavsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Israel is moving to 7-digit cellphone numbers since the current 6-digit scheme, although prolonged for some time by supernetting, "comes to the end of its useful life, once again due to address space exhaustion" [RFC 1606 on IPv9 :-]. Why won't they just use DNS? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
> As I said in the example itself, you don't necessarily have to have a BSc > to > have the necessary clue. However, when someone has a BSc, you can be sure > that > he *was* exposed to the required concepts and actually marked for them. So > it > gives you that much certainty. My 2 cents to the thread: During highschool, in one of the "practical" computer classes(That is, we actually used a computer for coding), I've run into a case where a pascal program did not do what it expected to do. I have attempted to trivialy debug the code using watches and checkpoints, and asked the teacher to see the result. She was in no way a clueless person, and she had a CS degree, yet she couldn't understand what's the hell I was trying to do. -- Idan = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Herouth Maoz wrote: Quoting Lior Kesos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: The way I see it 90% of the jobs people actualy do in CS are not so mathimatically/alogorithmic wise complex that a simple administrator that can code like me can't deal with. Well, in my rich work experience, I've had to maintain a lot of other people's code. Let me tell you one thing - code written by someone clueful about algorithms and efficiency and data structures is *miles* away from code written by the "I learned by studying the Java book" or "I took a course at Sivan" kind of programmer. When _I_ finished my course at sela I couldn't write anything with any value whatsoever so I can agree with you about someone just graduating from a technical school although alot of emphasis on practical efficient programming. I've heard many people being more happy with these technical school graduates for missions that don't require the scaling of the engineers to be a GUI programmer or a database programmer (whoops just covered 50% of the market if not more) one does not have to be a rocket scientist. The typical problem that may occur is that when realy tough reqirements come along like having very strict memory/cpu resources or image manipulation stuff that triggers very optimised coding these people may not have the math for the algorithims. But as I said I believe this to be 10% of the market. The one things I believe you're missing out on is the ability of the individual to teach himself. I have learned out of - trial and error , google, My Peers source, My Peers advice, Articles in various developer sites, plain curiosity and intrest tons more then in my formal education and manage workers with second degree's with out feeling unworthy or oversimplistic. The ability to learn alone is not something that you learn in the university and I think is one of the most importent skills that any wannabe programmer/IT proffesional shoulkd ever have. -- Lior Kesos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content Development Team Leader == "Everything should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler" -- Albert Einstein = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Herouth Maoz wrote:
Well, in my rich work experience, I've had to maintain a lot of other people's
code. Let me tell you one thing - code written by someone clueful about
algorithms and efficiency and data structures is *miles* away from code written
by the "I learned by studying the Java book" or "I took a course at Sivan" kind
of programmer.
...
>
As I said in the example itself, you don't necessarily have to have a BSc to
have the necessary clue. However, when someone has a BSc, you can be sure that
he *was* exposed to the required concepts and actually marked for them. So it
gives you that much certainty.
My only disagreement is about the assumption that someone with BSc is
indeed clueful. Some of them are, some aren't and it's the same exact
thing with non BSc people.
A lot of people who did study Comp Sci managed to learn algorythmics and
complixy issue as an abstract concept and are completly unable to
*apply* this theoretical knowledge in real life.
I have a simple question I ask people that claim to have Comp Sci degree
which I interview for jobs:
The company you worked for has a scripting language. The code for the
scripting language engine main loop looks like this:
Foo state;
while(!done) {
done = eval(GetNextLine(), state);
}
Assume you have any possible function you might ever want to get any
meaningfull state of the running program from "state", as well as any
procedure you might need to query the script text and structure.
The marketing dept. have gotten report from the field operators that our
customers, which are not VERY technical, has a very specific problem
with our scripting language - they tend to write scripts that go into
infinate loops.
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to design an addition
to the scriping engine that would alert the user that he has written a
script that has an infinite loop.
The percent of Comp Sci degree holder that don't answer the qestion
correctly is above 50.
In addition, it might be that the percentage of cluefull people with BSc
is higher. *However* some of the brightest and most talented programmers
I know lack a BSc is Comp Sci for vairous reasons - one is dyslexic, the
other has a Physics degree. Are you really willing to forgo them in advance?
However I think that if someone is a kernel guru, he must be clueful by
definition. Especially if any of his work has been peer-reviewed.
Non trivial amount of peer reviewed work is a definite sign for cluefull
ness.
Gilad
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Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Actually I didn't mean that you were uneducated (I don't know you well enough...) I meant that I was uneducated... (actually, not_so_proud_but_doing_OK_kind_of_an_uneducated_fool...) Ummm... If only I had four years to indulge myself in going to the University and, well, learning how to write real C code... :-) Gilboa On Mon, 2003-07-07 at 16:04, Lior Kesos wrote: > Gilboa Davara wrote: > > >+5 Word! :-) > > > >Gilboa * > > > > > >* Yet another uneducated fool, that managed to stay employed during the > >years by using the KISS factor. > > > shuks pa I may be uneducated but if I can stick my wrench into that > Menuconfig and patch kernels that can pick eggs from the farm for me I > guess I'm doing ok ... > > > [Kudos for the new word!]. > > > > > > > > > Extremely old word - > http://www.digital-web.com/features/feature_2001-6.shtml > http://www.psychologyhelp.com/psyc31.htm > and many more searchable from google my one and only teacher ... = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Gilboa Davara wrote: +5 Word! :-) Gilboa * * Yet another uneducated fool, that managed to stay employed during the years by using the KISS factor. shuks pa I may be uneducated but if I can stick my wrench into that Menuconfig and patch kernels that can pick eggs from the farm for me I guess I'm doing ok ... [Kudos for the new word!]. Extremely old word - http://www.digital-web.com/features/feature_2001-6.shtml http://www.psychologyhelp.com/psyc31.htm and many more searchable from google my one and only teacher ... -- Lior Kesos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content Development Team Leader == "Everything should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler" -- Albert Einstein = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
> -Original Message- > From: Herouth Maoz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] > Like that famous program from my military days, which was > always a nightmare. > They set it to run, and came back two days later for the > results. Then one of > the more clueful programmers (who didn't actually have a BSc > then) took a look > at it and discovered it was doing a bubble sort on its > database. He wrote it > with quicksort or something equally efficient. It changed to > running two hours > instead of two days. Heh, that's nothing! I had a programmer ask me to give him unlimited time on the mainframe. When asked he said he has to run a one-time program. I said Okay, but had him put checkpoint logs so we'll know the progress. After the first few checkpoints it was evident that two weeks (!) would not be enough. I asked for the source, and noticed an O(n**3) algorithm with a "large n". After analyzing the requirements I have taught him an O(n) in code + O(nlogn) in database preprocessing. Took less than an hour to run. Yes, it was in the army. Yes the above programer was a MAMRAM programming course graduate + 3 years of experience. and Yes the O(n) algorithm was Merge-Sort. -- Arik ** This email and attachments have been scanned for potential proprietary or sensitive information leakage. PortAuthority(TM) Server Keeping Information Inside Vidius, Inc. www.vidius.com ** To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Quoting Lior Kesos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > The way I see it 90% of the jobs people actualy do in CS are not so > mathimatically/alogorithmic wise complex that a simple administrator > that can code like me can't deal with. Well, in my rich work experience, I've had to maintain a lot of other people's code. Let me tell you one thing - code written by someone clueful about algorithms and efficiency and data structures is *miles* away from code written by the "I learned by studying the Java book" or "I took a course at Sivan" kind of programmer. I'm not sure about administrator's coding, not having looked at a lot of such code except shell scripts. But the clueless really write awful code. No idea of re-using code. No idea of uniformity of concepts (write a read loop in one way, not in ten way along the code). Lots of hard-coded constants (I had to clean up such code only a week ago. Two wasted hours). Heck, some of them actually compare boolean variables to "true" or to "false" in ifs and whiles... I'm not talking about any complex datastructures or re-implementing the hash table. I'm talking about a *clue*. Like that famous program from my military days, which was always a nightmare. They set it to run, and came back two days later for the results. Then one of the more clueful programmers (who didn't actually have a BSc then) took a look at it and discovered it was doing a bubble sort on its database. He wrote it with quicksort or something equally efficient. It changed to running two hours instead of two days. As I said in the example itself, you don't necessarily have to have a BSc to have the necessary clue. However, when someone has a BSc, you can be sure that he *was* exposed to the required concepts and actually marked for them. So it gives you that much certainty. The problem with the clueless is that their programs *work* to spec. It's just that they are not maintainable, extensible, or even readable... However I think that if someone is a kernel guru, he must be clueful by definition. Especially if any of his work has been peer-reviewed. Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
+5 Word! :-) Gilboa * * Yet another uneducated fool, that managed to stay employed during the years by using the KISS factor. [Kudos for the new word!]. On Mon, 2003-07-07 at 15:03, Lior Kesos wrote: > Small disclaimer due to the fact I was asked to post the job and that a > healthy thread emerged - > I have no degree whatsoever and am extremely happy that the KISS (Keep > It Simple Stupid) axiom applies very well to the CS field. > The way I see it 90% of the jobs people actualy do in CS are not so > mathimatically/alogorithmic wise complex that a simple administrator > that can code like me can't deal with. > And for the remaining 10% of the jobs I hear there are plenty jobless CS > major with a 90 avarage looking for a job ... = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Small disclaimer due to the fact I was asked to post the job and that a healthy thread emerged - I have no degree whatsoever and am extremely happy that the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) axiom applies very well to the CS field. The way I see it 90% of the jobs people actualy do in CS are not so mathimatically/alogorithmic wise complex that a simple administrator that can code like me can't deal with. And for the remaining 10% of the jobs I hear there are plenty jobless CS major with a 90 avarage looking for a job ... -- Lior Kesos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content Development Team Leader == "Everything should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler" -- Albert Einstein = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
> One possibility (not necessarily applicable for this one) is that the > job involves work abroad. There are countries that do not give work > permits unless you have a degree (as a proof of special expertise that > can not be replaced with locals). But that only applies to PhD's or the equivalent, not to lower degrees. > A second possibility is that somebody is paying per-hour fees. For such a job, there > may be a specific request for > someone with a degree as the pay-hour fee might be higher. Could be, often it doesn't matter. However on a business plan or proposal dgrees mean things, especialy in this country. > It seems though that being a kernel guru is a unique quality by itself that is not > related to a degree. > This does not mean the public perception understands that... Never have, never will. :-) Good CEO's do understand that, bad ones don't. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 972-54-608-069 Do sysadmins count networked sheep? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
One possibility (not necessarily applicable for this one) is that the job involves work abroad. There are countries that do not give work permits unless you have a degree (as a proof of special expertise that can not be replaced with locals). A second possibility is that somebody is paying per-hour fees. For such a job, there may be a specific request for someone with a degree as the pay-hour fee might be higher. It seems though that being a kernel guru is a unique quality by itself that is not related to a degree. This does not mean the public perception understands that... Gilad Ben-Yossef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Meir Michanie wrote: >> *Bsc in Computer science - a must. > > > Why a Bsc is so important, Most of the Phds guys I know are not good for practical > issues, and most of them even not at theorical. > > I quit univeristy twice and I am partialy proud of it. > > I try to think hard enought why it could be of interest to hire a Bsc,... And the > only reason I see is that it may serve to show off to potential > > investors. As someone who actually has a B.A. in computer science AND is knowledgable about the Linux kernel enough to get paid for code for it, I couldn't help wondering about the same thing myself... :-) Gilad = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Meir Michanie wrote: *Bsc in Computer science - a must. Why a Bsc is so important, Most of the Phds guys I know are not good for practical issues, and most of them even not at theorical. I quit univeristy twice and I am partialy proud of it. I try to think hard enought why it could be of interest to hire a Bsc,... And the only reason I see is that it may serve to show off to potential investors. As someone who actually has a B.A. in computer science AND is knowledgable about the Linux kernel enough to get paid for code for it, I couldn't help wondering about the same thing myself... :-) Gilad = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
Arik, (and the list) > On the other hand, in 1997-2000 many people just quit university > because the start-up world was too enticing, and they are good enough to > get a job without a degree. After all, 5.4% of the richest people in the > world are collage dropouts [1]. The same thing happend to me in the U.S. in 1972/73. You could walk down a large street in any business district almost anywhere with a sandwich sign saying "I kan progrum komputrs" and get a job in 5 minutes. One friend of mine got a programming job at barbecue and he wasn't even there. :-) On The other hand in the late 80's I was one of if not the best BAL programer in the world (300 lines of tested, debugged code from specs per day 5 days per week for almost 6 months). Think anyone cares now? Now its just a minor footnote on a resume that's too long. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 972-54-608-069 Do sysadmins count networked sheep? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
> -Original Message- > From: Meir Michanie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] > Why a Bsc is so important, Most of the Phds guys I know are > not good for practical issues, and most of them even not at theorical. I don't want anyone to take offence, but when I interview people, I look at their degree as a certificate that says that the person certified by it can take up long-term task and finish them. They have studied, for 3 or 4 years, gone through the various hoops and toils of the academic world, and emerged victorious on the other side, with the diploma in hand. A worthy project, IMHO. Plus the smart ones get to pick some useful stuff along the way. Obviously this is not the only factor by which I judge the applicant - some people just coast through their degree like they are made from Teflon - nothing sticks. You ask the simplest CS question and their eyes go blank. It also bears some correlation to the institution issuing the degree - some are harder, objectively, than others - which means the student is either more involved or did not get her degree. This is why IMHO a degree can be a criteria. It's not fair putting it as a MUST - but it does give the interviewer a coarse filter, especially today when the job seekers are plentiful. PhDs, are another issue, though. > I quit univeristy twice and I am partialy proud of it. Without looking at your particular case, when I hear someone saying that I hear 'I don't have what it takes to finish what I start doing'. I don't want to hurt your feelings, but it doesn't sound too good. On the other hand, in 1997-2000 many people just quit university because the start-up world was too enticing, and they are good enough to get a job without a degree. After all, 5.4% of the richest people in the world are collage dropouts [1]. If someone without a degree would have applied for a position to which I believe a degree is required, I would scrutinize their CV carefully before inviting them for an interview. > I try to think hard enought why it could be of interest to > hire a Bsc,... And the only reason I see is that it may serve > to show off to potential investors. That could also be it. -- Arik [1] http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2002/03/01/gates-richest-man.htm ** This email and attachments have been scanned for potential proprietary or sensitive information leakage. PortAuthority(TM) Server Keeping Information Inside Vidius, Inc. www.vidius.com ** To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] [JOB OFFER] - We we are looking for Linux Kernel Guru
I would like to remark the point. I am not saying that ppl with Bsc are not good. I am saying that if you have the knowledge of all the previous points, so the last point is superflous. another two things, try to sum up the number of years of experience requiered, if the guy is good he has have expended at least 8 years at senior level + the years of learning. Would Marcelo Tosatti qualify for the job position? I feel that the MUST requierment for a Bsc is like a cancer in the opensource community where you are valuable by what you do and not who you are. IF you have the knowledge and you know how to use it, so you are the guy. The day I will have my own company I would judge ppl for what they can do, the fast they can learn what do they not know and their joy at work. On Sun, 2003-07-06 at 23:57, Meir Michanie wrote: > > *Bsc in Computer science - a must. > > Why a Bsc is so important, Most of the Phds guys I know are not good for practical > issues, and most of them even not at theorical. > > I quit univeristy twice and I am partialy proud of it. > > I try to think hard enought why it could be of interest to hire a Bsc,... And the > only reason I see is that it may serve to show off to potential > > investors. > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Meir Michanie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
