[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?
Dear Benjamin, Bruno and All I generally use gut, but when testing synthetic top strings, I have been very surprised by the long wind up time of synthetic top strings before they come to tune. I would not like to have a synthetics treble break during a concert, and to have to replace it in situ. They take a further good few days to stabilize, much longer than a gut treble (Yes a gut top string is more likely to break, but I did see this happen to POD's top synthetic, when in concert here in Paris. Fortunately, it was on the very last note of an encore and the effect made an excellent concert all the more dramatic). As to gut loaded basses and Meanes, it would be quite a different story, as they seem to go on stretching for months, but they would also be less likely to break. This does mean, however, that it would be very difficult to just swap from synthetics to gut simply for a recording (as many would like to do). Having two lutes strung differently would be one way to go, but the playing style has to adapt to different string types (particularly for bass strings). The other better solution would perhaps be to always use gut Basses and Meanes, but synthetic trebles for concert, and just to change the treble strings to gut for recording. However the tuning difference between the two string types would be there in concert, just when, presumably, you don't want it. Perhaps, the better ploy would be only to use synthetic trebles on the fist two courses in all situations, but gut elsewhere, and to carry a gut string replacement in case the synthetic top breaks. However, Benjamin's point seems to relate also to the problem of having to use different synthetic types to achieve good Basses, Meanes and Trebles: Carbons, nylons and nylgut. Apparently, these different types go out of tune differently, while the various gut types mentionned above seem to do so to a much lesser extent. A similar problem can be observed across different instruments, I think it was David v.O. who mentionned that when playing ensemble music with gut bow string players, the gut strung lute tends to go out of tune in the same way as the bowed instruments leading to quite good relative in tuneness between players, wheras a synthetics strung lute will fairly rapidly sound out of tune relative to the bowed instruments. However, relating to the stability of gut stringing in extreme situations (as some others have mentionned here), Benjamin told me that he was very positively surprised when he went over to gut stringing, having feared the worse. For example, his stringing fared quite well when he found himself far too close for comfort with powerful stage lights on a US tour, and also when in extreme high humidity on tour in the l'Ile de la Reunion. Once the strings were saturated, apparently the instrument did stabilize. Benjamin does use quite high tension, so I wonder whether this may partly account for his good fortune. I throw this out as a question. I would imagine that a gut top string, however, would not survive long in either context. Regards Anthony __ De : Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com A : lute-cs. edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Vendredi 5 octobre 2012 20h33 Objet : [LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics? Funny, I was thinking about the same thing today. My instruments are never in tune when taken out of the case for the first time everyday day. I'm on sinthetics (Aquila), but I believe on gut the result would be much worse, the weather in Rio is very close to Singapore... 2012/10/5 Benjamin Narvey [1][1]luthi...@gmail.com Dear Luters, I know that much has been made about tuning issues pertaining to gut strings, but it strikes me now how little has been said about the same difficulty with synthetics/modern strings. For the first time in ages I am playing on a modern-strung theorbo belonging to a student of mine for rehearsals of a Fairy Queen while I impatiently await the arrival of my new double luth in some weeks (more on this giraffe anon). I am simply aghast at how badly carbon strings go out of tune, even though they are not supposed to. (Nylon/nylgut fares better.) Indeed, the (ugh) overwound Savarez guitar bass strings are the worst offenders of all, going madly out of tune sometimes: not surprising they are so sensitive given how metal is such a superb conducting material. The tuning got so sticky I actually took the instrument to a lutemaker since I thought it had to be peg slippage, but no. And of course, with all these different modern materials, the different string types are going out if tune differently. Superb. I
[LUTE] Re: Off topic : Early guitars Superb Book!
Just yesterday, I saw the maginificient book, The Viennese guitar of the 19th century, on which Hoffer collaborated. Some of the guitars for sale, appear in this beautiful work: stauffer-and-co.com/Stuco_flyer_E_web.pdf Anthony De : Valery SAUVAGE sauvag...@orange.fr À : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoyé le : Jeudi 4 octobre 2012 10h41 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Off topic : Early guitars About the list, the one on the site is not exactly the sales list, but near to. It can just give an idea. So if you are really interested, ask directly to Erik the updated sales list with prices, and is interested by an instrument, ask him detailled infos and picts... Many are already sold... V. Message du 03/10/12 16:06 De : Braig, Eugene A : 'Lute Net' Copie `a : Objet : [LUTE] Re: Off topic : Early guitars Some titles and descriptions are truly tantalizing. However, I find it extremely frustrating in being so teased with no way to access more detailed images directly. I'm sincerely tempted to write Erik-Pierre regarding my vrais interet. There used to be a fine listserv for 19th-c. guitar discussion under the Dartmouth umbrella. It ran into some competition from a handful of other lists that were previously active, but seem to be less so now. I wonder if it's time to resurrect that list. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Valery Sauvage Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:41 AM To: le_l...@yahoogroupes.fr; 'Lute Net' Subject: [LUTE] Off topic : Early guitars Une tres importante collection de guitares historiques est mise en vente par Erik Pierre Hofmann. Une majorite de guitares romantiques mais aussi quelques guitares baroques... Certaines restaurees, d'autres `a restaurer, d'autres pour la vitrine. Des grands noms comme Lacote, Laprevotte, Stauffer... A voir ici : http://www.fine-antique-and-classical-guitars.com/instruments.html Contacter Erik Pierre Hofmann si vraiment interesses. A very important collection of early guitars is for sale now. Some restored and playable, some for exhibition, some for needs work. See link above for the list. Details may be asked from Erik-Pierre Hofmann if truly interested... Valery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Tuner
Oh well, I suppose I'll wait till I drop my present one before ordering this new version. Thanks for letting me know. Best Anthony - Mail original - De : Sam Chapman manchap...@gmail.com À : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc : Francesco Tribioli tribi...@arcetri.astro.it; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoyé le : Vendredi 5 octobre 2012 20h17 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Tuner The entire case (including battery cover) of the new version is made from very classy brushed aluminium. I've already dropped the tuner a few times and it seems to be pretty bomb proof. best, Sam On 5 October 2012 16:48, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello Francesco Yes the replacement cover is exactly the same. I think the problem is both because the original cover is as you say inherently weak, and EU 9V batteries are perhaps a little larger than some others making it more difficult to close the cover. I hadn't realized that the new ST-122 was made of metal, but I have had three years use out of this one, and as you say, since it is working, it would seem a pity to have to buy a new one just for this cover question. I will carry on with this one, unless there are other arguments for swapping to the new one. Regards Anthony __ De : Francesco Tribioli [2]tribi...@arcetri.astro.it A : 'Anthony Hind' [3]agno3ph...@yahoo.com Envoye le : Vendredi 5 octobre 2012 10h52 Objet : RE: [LUTE] Re: Tuner Hello Anthony, The reason I am writing today, however, is because I had a problem with a slightly fractured battery cover on the ST-122 (this is a part which does get stressed, when ever the battery is changed, and I have had mine for at least a three years). I sent a message about this to Sonic research, and immediately Roger sent me a new cover, which I have just received this morning. I've exactly the same problem with my ST-122 and I was thinking to buy the 122a, which is built in aluminum, just for this. My question: is the replaced cover exactly as the older one? I ask because the locking system of that cover is inherently weak and I think that it might break in a short time too. On the other hand to spend quite a bit of money to replace a perfectly working tuner just for the battery cover seems a little bit silly 8^) Thank in advance for any info you can share Francesco -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:tribi...@arcetri.astro.it 3. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] 4 Gilbert Isbin lutepieces performed by Andres Bnilla
4 of my compositions (Away Ahile, Gift, Floating, Seasong) recorded by the Argentine lutenist Andres Bnilla and performed on the lutefestivals of Columbia and Argentina http://users.telenet.be/gilbert.isbin/what's%20new.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?
No, it isn't a new problem. This is what Mattheson writes (1727) answering Baron in his book Ephorus, naming disadvantages of the lute: Because of the many strings, and special strings (gut-strings) which depend more on stable temperature and humidity than other instruments (to stay in tune). We don't know how gut strings of the past differed from modern ones, but just one thing shouldn't be disregarded - gut absorbs humidity from the air, synthetics do not. Why synthetics go out of tune? Because of the temperature differences and bigger elasticity. From my experience I can only say that after changing a Nylgut string it takes quite a lot of time before it can be used for a concert, however then it stays in tune better than gut. But obviously it is possible to play a concert on gut strings providing that it is not in a very humid place (or one with changing air conditions). I wouldn't mix gut with synthetics though, as each material goes different way. So my advice is use either synthetics or gut depending on your wallet's size :) Best regards Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Mark Probert w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 04:17: Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not a new problem, though I do believe that synthetics help. Kind regards -- mark. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] FOR SALE Theorbo - Martin De Witte 2008
FOR SALE Theorbo - Martin De Witte 2008 78cm/150cm 8 strings strings on the short neck with a possibility of a long F as well A stable loud instrument, comfortable for all sorts of repertoire due to a comfortable string length. Works great for solo and continuo. PICTURES can be sent on request. Anton Birula i...@luteduo.com www.luteduo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute
It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and design is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is, lute, the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences the tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string mole while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to solve anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences observed here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material to the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings, consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its' own). Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing it with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize something here, right? I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard, but early - baroque - bowed instruments as well as some later violins, especially those built and used in bad climes, had the inner wood surfaces treated with the mixture of hide glue and linseed oil. (There were actually some arguing this might have improved the instrument sound - to some tastes, that is, just off the top of my head - look up Frederick Castle's Violin tone peculiarities). Some other varnishes on the inner wood surface were observed as well. I have seen them on museum instruments. And some varnishes penetrated the wood deeply enough to create more wood stability. Think Cremona here. Protecting the inner wood surface of the lute would do much more to stabilize its' tuning in the case of rapid weather changes. But this will never happen, i would hazard to guess. Chasing a perfect string - there is the solution, of course. alexander r. On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:17:41 +1000 Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02, living in Sydney Australia, is that nylgut mitigates some of he effect of fairly extreme weather changes. We can have a thunder storm roll in and have the temperature drop by 10+C in the space of as many minutes. Gut just gives up in those circumstances. Part B of this is the effect of the weather on the wood of the instrument. One of my lutes is more stable than the other in the pegbox department. When we are in a changing time, I am forced not to play this instrument for days at a time (I really don't enjoy the tune, tune, tune aspect). Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not a new problem, though I do believe that synthetics help. Kind regards -- mark. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Newsletter from TREE
New items published by TREE EDITION October 2012 JOHANN ANTON GRAF LOSY (1650 - 1720) : PIECES FROM THE NEW YORK MS edited by Michael Treder The edition comprises 142 solo lute pieces by Losy, Eckstein, Adlersfeld and others from the manuscript US-NYpMYO (New York Public Library at Lincoln Center). Also a large preface on the composers of the music (in German language) and full concordances. French tablature / Baroque tuning / 195 pages / 2 volumes / Euro 40.- FANTASIAS RECERCARS FOR RENAISSANCE LUTE Vol. III collected, transcribed and edited by John H. Robinson This edition is the third in a series of fantasias and recercars transcribed into French tablature from sources in German lute tablature. The present volume includes all of the fantasias and recercars (92 lute solos) in manuscripts notated in German tablature dated between c.1580 and c.1620, including all of the genre from three of the largest German manuscripts, the so-called Dlugoraj, Wurstisen and Donaueschingen lute books. The music includes many excellent examples of the genres. The contents range from recercars from earlier in the 16th-c to more complex imitative fantasias by masters of the high renaissance. Renaissance tuning / French tablature / 165 pages / 2 volumes / Euro 40.- ANTOINE CARRÉ: LIVRE DE GUITARRE, PARIS 1671 The book is titled Livre de Guitarre Contenant Plusieurs Pièces...Avec la Manière de Toucher Sur la Partie ou Basse Continue, published in Paris in 1671. It contains 17 solo pieces for Baroque Guitar and 14 explanation charts for continuo playing on Barqoue Guitar after figured bass. French tablature / Baroque Guitar tuning / Euro 20.- Send your orders to albertreyer...@kabelmail.de Please find our complete catalogue of lute music at www.tree-edition.com TREE EDITION Albert Reyerman Finkenberg 89 23558 Luebeck Germany albertreyer...@kabelmail.de www.Tree-Edition.com ++49(0)451 899 78 48 More Music Books at http://tree-edition.magix.net/public/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday quotes
We have posted our luteworthy Saturday quotes, Harping on the lute. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-wY Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-wY To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute
Sanz advises storing strings in a little pot in almond oil to keep them supple se deven conservar en una cagilla, o canon de oja de lata, o sino en una vadanilla con azeite de almendras dulces..y assi tendras las cuerdas frescas. Monica - Original Message - From: Sam Chapman manchap...@gmail.com To: alexander voka...@verizon.net Cc: Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com; lute-cs. edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2012 5:03 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute Interesting. Weren't strings sometimes also treated with certain oils - almond oil I think? I hadn't realised that this could potentially protect against humidity changes. Sam On 6 October 2012 15:05, alexander [1]voka...@verizon.net wrote: It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and design is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is, lute, the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences the tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string mole while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to solve anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences observed here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material to the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings, consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its' own). Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing it with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize something here, right? I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard, but early - baroque - bowed instruments as well as some later violins, especially those built and used in bad climes, had the inner wood surfaces treated with the mixture of hide glue and linseed oil. (There were actually some arguing this might have improved the instrument sound - to some tastes, that is, just off the top of my head - look up Frederick Castle's Violin tone peculiarities). Some other varnishes on the inner wood surface were observed as well. I have seen them on museum instruments. And some varnishes penetrated the wood deeply enough to create more wood stability. Think Cremona here. Protecting the inner wood surface of the lute would do much more to stabilize its' tuning in the case of rapid weather changes. But this will never happen, i would hazard to guess. Chasing a perfect string - there is the solution, of course. alexander r. On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:17:41 +1000 Mark Probert [2]probe...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02, living in Sydney Australia, is that nylgut mitigates some of he effect of fairly extreme weather changes. We can have a thunder storm roll in and have the temperature drop by 10+C in the space of as many minutes. Gut just gives up in those circumstances. Part B of this is the effect of the weather on the wood of the instrument. One of my lutes is more stable than the other in the pegbox department. When we are in a changing time, I am forced not to play this instrument for days at a time (I really don't enjoy the tune, tune, tune aspect). Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not a new problem, though I do believe that synthetics help. Kind regards -- mark. To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:voka...@verizon.net 2. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?
Yes, varnishing helps, but doesn't totally stop a string absorbing humidity. It rather protects from wear and tear.I tried them. They sound duller, inferior to normal gut and are not historical strings. This is what MP writes about them on his website: Gut strings are varnished in order to protect the strings from wear and tear. The varnishing of strings is not a historical process; the earliest samples of varnished strings we have found only date back to the 1920-30s. A varnished string has a somewhat duller sound and the attack under the bow is slightly more difficult and liable to whistle. When I use gut I do it for it's beautifull sound, so the idea of something that has neither advantages of synthetics nor gut doesn't really suit me. All the best Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Sam Chapman w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 17:34: Well, there's gut and there's varnished gut. The latter may not have been used historically, but it absorbs much less humidity from the air and sweat from the fingers, therefore staying in tune well, maintaining it's tone quality and lasting longer. That said, I've not had much experience using varnished gut in concerts, but am now considering it as possibly a good compromise. It's certainly closer to plain gut in terms of feel and sound than any kind of synthetic string. Benjamin, what kind of gut do you use? best, Sam On 6 October 2012 12:26, Jaros^3aw Lipski [1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: No, it isn't a new problem. This is what Mattheson writes (1727) answering Baron in his book Ephorus, naming disadvantages of the lute: Because of the many strings, and special strings (gut-strings) which depend more on stable temperature and humidity than other instruments (to stay in tune). We don't know how gut strings of the past differed from modern ones, but just one thing shouldn't be disregarded - gut absorbs humidity from the air, synthetics do not. Why synthetics go out of tune? Because of the temperature differences and bigger elasticity. From my experience I can only say that after changing a Nylgut string it takes quite a lot of time before it can be used for a concert, however then it stays in tune better than gut. But obviously it is possible to play a concert on gut strings providing that it is not in a very humid place (or one with changing air conditions). I wouldn't mix gut with synthetics though, as each material goes different way. So my advice is use either synthetics or gut depending on your wallet's size :) Best regards Jaroslaw WiadomoP:ae napisana przez Mark Probert w dniu 6 pa 1/4 2012, o godz. 04:17: Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not a new problem, though I do believe that synthetics help. Kind regards -- mark. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute
Loading, to a certain extent does protect against humidity changes. Perhaps there may have been other treatments that we don't know about. Anthony __ De : Sam Chapman manchap...@gmail.com A : alexander voka...@verizon.net Cc : Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com; lute-cs. edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 18h03 Objet : [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute Interesting. Weren't strings sometimes also treated with certain oils - almond oil I think? I hadn't realised that this could potentially protect against humidity changes. Sam On 6 October 2012 15:05, alexander [1][1]voka...@verizon.net wrote: It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and design is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is, lute, the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences the tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string mole while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to solve anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences observed here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material to the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings, consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its' own). Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing it with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize something here, right? I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard, but early - baroque - bowed instruments as well as some later violins, especially those built and used in bad climes, had the inner wood surfaces treated with the mixture of hide glue and linseed oil. (There were actually some arguing this might have improved the instrument sound - to some tastes, that is, just off the top of my head - look up Frederick Castle's Violin tone peculiarities). Some other varnishes on the inner wood surface were observed as well. I have seen them on museum instruments. And some varnishes penetrated the wood deeply enough to create more wood stability. Think Cremona here. Protecting the inner wood surface of the lute would do much more to stabilize its' tuning in the case of rapid weather changes. But this will never happen, i would hazard to guess. Chasing a perfect string - there is the solution, of course. alexander r. On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:17:41 +1000 Mark Probert [2][2]probe...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02, living in Sydney Australia, is that nylgut mitigates some of he effect of fairly extreme weather changes. We can have a thunder storm roll in and have the temperature drop by 10+C in the space of as many minutes. Gut just gives up in those circumstances. Part B of this is the effect of the weather on the wood of the instrument. One of my lutes is more stable than the other in the pegbox department. When we are in a changing time, I am forced not to play this instrument for days at a time (I really don't enjoy the tune, tune, tune aspect). Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not a new problem, though I do believe that synthetics help. Kind regards -- mark. To get on or off this list see list information at [3][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:[4]voka...@verizon.net 2. mailto:[5]probe...@gmail.com 3. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:voka...@verizon.net 2. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:voka...@verizon.net 5. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?
The beauty of gut sound is greatly compromised by gut's insufferable intonation, especially on the octaved courses. RT Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2012, at 2:39 PM, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Yes, varnishing helps, but doesn't totally stop a string absorbing humidity. It rather protects from wear and tear.I tried them. They sound duller, inferior to normal gut and are not historical strings. This is what MP writes about them on his website: Gut strings are varnished in order to protect the strings from wear and tear. The varnishing of strings is not a historical process; the earliest samples of varnished strings we have found only date back to the 1920-30s. A varnished string has a somewhat duller sound and the attack under the bow is slightly more difficult and liable to whistle. When I use gut I do it for it's beautifull sound, so the idea of something that has neither advantages of synthetics nor gut doesn't really suit me. All the best Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Sam Chapman w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 17:34: Well, there's gut and there's varnished gut. The latter may not have been used historically, but it absorbs much less humidity from the air and sweat from the fingers, therefore staying in tune well, maintaining it's tone quality and lasting longer. That said, I've not had much experience using varnished gut in concerts, but am now considering it as possibly a good compromise. It's certainly closer to plain gut in terms of feel and sound than any kind of synthetic string. Benjamin, what kind of gut do you use? best, Sam On 6 October 2012 12:26, Jaros^3aw Lipski [1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: No, it isn't a new problem. This is what Mattheson writes (1727) answering Baron in his book Ephorus, naming disadvantages of the lute: Because of the many strings, and special strings (gut-strings) which depend more on stable temperature and humidity than other instruments (to stay in tune). We don't know how gut strings of the past differed from modern ones, but just one thing shouldn't be disregarded - gut absorbs humidity from the air, synthetics do not. Why synthetics go out of tune? Because of the temperature differences and bigger elasticity. From my experience I can only say that after changing a Nylgut string it takes quite a lot of time before it can be used for a concert, however then it stays in tune better than gut. But obviously it is possible to play a concert on gut strings providing that it is not in a very humid place (or one with changing air conditions). I wouldn't mix gut with synthetics though, as each material goes different way. So my advice is use either synthetics or gut depending on your wallet's size :) Best regards Jaroslaw WiadomoP:ae napisana przez Mark Probert w dniu 6 pa 1/4 2012, o godz. 04:17: Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not a new problem, though I do believe that synthetics help. Kind regards -- mark. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?
I think there may be a sensual texture versus perfect intonation perference that may draw some, while others shy away. However, that was not the issue raised by Benjamin, but relative rather than absolute pitch (I think). Regards Anthony __ De : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com AEUR : JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 21h14 Objet : [LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics? The beauty of gut sound is greatly compromised by gut's insufferable intonation, especially on the octaved courses. RT Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2012, at 2:39 PM, JarosAA'aw Lipski [1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Yes, varnishing helps, but doesn't totally stop a string absorbing humidity. It rather protects from wear and tear.I tried them. They sound duller, inferior to normal gut and are not historical strings. This is what MP writes about them on his website: Gut strings are varnished in order to protect the strings from wear and tear. The varnishing of strings is not a historical process; the earliest samples of varnished strings we have found only date back to the 1920-30s. A varnished string has a somewhat duller sound and the attack under the bow is slightly more difficult and liable to whistle. When I use gut I do it for it's beautifull sound, so the idea of something that has neither advantages of synthetics nor gut doesn't really suit me. All the best Jaroslaw WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Sam Chapman w dniu 6 paAA-o 2012, o godz. 17:34: Well, there's gut and there's varnished gut. The latter may not have been used historically, but it absorbs much less humidity from the air and sweat from the fingers, therefore staying in tune well, maintaining it's tone quality and lasting longer. That said, I've not had much experience using varnished gut in concerts, but am now considering it as possibly a good compromise. It's certainly closer to plain gut in terms of feel and sound than any kind of synthetic string. Benjamin, what kind of gut do you use? best, Sam On 6 October 2012 12:26, Jaros^3aw Lipski [1][2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: No, it isn't a new problem. This is what Mattheson writes (1727) answering Baron in his book Ephorus, naming disadvantages of the lute: Because of the many strings, and special strings (gut-strings) which depend more on stable temperature and humidity than other instruments (to stay in tune). We don't know how gut strings of the past differed from modern ones, but just one thing shouldn't be disregarded - gut absorbs humidity from the air, synthetics do not. Why synthetics go out of tune? Because of the temperature differences and bigger elasticity. From my experience I can only say that after changing a Nylgut string it takes quite a lot of time before it can be used for a concert, however then it stays in tune better than gut. But obviously it is possible to play a concert on gut strings providing that it is not in a very humid place (or one with changing air conditions). I wouldn't mix gut with synthetics though, as each material goes different way. So my advice is use either synthetics or gut depending on your wallet's size :) Best regards Jaroslaw WiadomoP:ae napisana przez Mark Probert w dniu 6 pa 1/4 2012, o godz. 04:17: Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not a new problem, though I do believe that synthetics help. Kind regards -- mark. To get on or off this list see list information at [2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:[4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 2. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute
Sorry for splitting my message in 2. Almond oil was and is used during production of gut strings. Normally you get oiled strings unless you order otherwise. Oil slightly prevents from moisture, meaning that your string will live longer, however it won't stop your lute from going out of tune (at least not significantly). Historically almond oil was used to protect strings from rotting which was quite common in past. This is what Mace wrote (p.66): As concerning the keeping of your strings, you must know, there ought to be a choice care taken; for they may be very good when you buy them, but spoiled in a quarter of an hours time, if they take any wet, or moist air. Therefore your best way is, to wrap them up close, either in an oiled paper, a bladder, or a piece of sear-cloath,[……] Which, when you have thus done, keep them in some close box, or cupboard; but not amongst linen, (for that gives moisture;) and let them be in a room where there is, or useth to be, a fire often. And when at any time you open them for your use, take heed they lye not too long open, nor in a dark window, or moist place; For moisture is the worst Enemy to your strings. From this quote it can be safely deduced that gut strings were extremely susceptible to moisture in spite of oil treatment . Notice that Mace says one shouldn't keep a box with strings open too long or they get dump. This is quite amazing…or the climate in England was very humid at that time, who knows? Anyway, gut strings have some weak points which synthetics do not posses, but I don't see any reason for hiding them. It is a natural part of recreating something from the past. It's like driving an old car from 1920s. You can't compare it to a new Mercedes but it's fun to drive a vehicle from the past with all its disadvantages. Kind regards Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Sam Chapman w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 18:03: Interesting. Weren't strings sometimes also treated with certain oils - almond oil I think? I hadn't realised that this could potentially protect against humidity changes. Sam On 6 October 2012 15:05, alexander [1]voka...@verizon.net wrote: It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and design is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is, lute, the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences the tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string mole while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to solve anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences observed here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material to the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings, consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its' own). Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing it with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize something here, right? I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard, but early - baroque - bowed instruments as well as some later violins, especially those built and used in bad climes, had the inner wood surfaces treated with the mixture of hide glue and linseed oil. (There were actually some arguing this might have improved the instrument sound - to some tastes, that is, just off the top of my head - look up Frederick Castle's Violin tone peculiarities). Some other varnishes on the inner wood surface were observed as well. I have seen them on museum instruments. And some varnishes penetrated the wood deeply enough to create more wood stability. Think Cremona here. Protecting the inner wood surface of the lute would do much more to stabilize its' tuning in the case of rapid weather changes. But this will never happen, i would hazard to guess. Chasing a perfect string - there is the solution, of course. alexander r. On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:17:41 +1000 Mark Probert [2]probe...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02, living in Sydney Australia, is that nylgut mitigates some of he effect of fairly extreme weather changes. We can have a thunder storm roll in and have the temperature drop by 10+C in the space of as many minutes. Gut just gives up in those circumstances. Part B of this is the effect of the weather on the wood of the instrument. One of my lutes is more stable than the other in the pegbox department. When we are in a changing time, I am forced not to play this instrument for days at a time (I really don't enjoy the tune, tune, tune aspect). Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not a new problem, though I
[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute
Maybe, but then how will you explain a quote from Mace p.66: I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very good; yet but seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, very good; but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly rotten. As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of loaded string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly rotten? All best Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 21:12: Loading, to a certain extent does protect against humidity changes. Perhaps there may have been other treatments that we don't know about. Anthony __ De : Sam Chapman manchap...@gmail.com A : alexander voka...@verizon.net Cc : Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com; lute-cs. edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 18h03 Objet : [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute Interesting. Weren't strings sometimes also treated with certain oils - almond oil I think? I hadn't realised that this could potentially protect against humidity changes. Sam On 6 October 2012 15:05, alexander [1][1]voka...@verizon.net wrote: It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and design is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is, lute, the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences the tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string mole while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to solve anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences observed here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material to the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings, consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its' own). Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing it with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize something here, right? I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard, but early - baroque - bowed instruments as well as some later violins, especially those built and used in bad climes, had the inner wood surfaces treated with the mixture of hide glue and linseed oil. (There were actually some arguing this might have improved the instrument sound - to some tastes, that is, just off the top of my head - look up Frederick Castle's Violin tone peculiarities). Some other varnishes on the inner wood surface were observed as well. I have seen them on museum instruments. And some varnishes penetrated the wood deeply enough to create more wood stability. Think Cremona here. Protecting the inner wood surface of the lute would do much more to stabilize its' tuning in the case of rapid weather changes. But this will never happen, i would hazard to guess. Chasing a perfect string - there is the solution, of course. alexander r. On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:17:41 +1000 Mark Probert [2][2]probe...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02, living in Sydney Australia, is that nylgut mitigates some of he effect of fairly extreme weather changes. We can have a thunder storm roll in and have the temperature drop by 10+C in the space of as many minutes. Gut just gives up in those circumstances. Part B of this is the effect of the weather on the wood of the instrument. One of my lutes is more stable than the other in the pegbox department. When we are in a changing time, I am forced not to play this instrument for days at a time (I really don't enjoy the tune, tune, tune aspect). Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not a new problem, though I do believe that synthetics help. Kind regards -- mark. To get on or off this list see list information at [3][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:[4]voka...@verizon.net 2. mailto:[5]probe...@gmail.com 3. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:voka...@verizon.net 2. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:voka...@verizon.net 5. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?
This discussion reminded me of the 10 metres of Sofracob, fitting for the first course of my 13ch lute, that still were in a box in the cupboard. I made me a chanterelle and it is rather good, still not broken after 3 days, though with a strangely sticky and hard touch for a nylon player. The sound lacks warmth and sustain. Today then a rehearsal in a crowded room: had to tune that string after every piece. No problem, but if I imagine all the strings in gut: OMG! But what is your opinion now about that material: is it too old? (must have been ordered 8 years ago). What is meant by rotten? Best regards Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute
Oh I was only speaking about modern loaded strings, that at present are covered in the copper loading. I don't know what would happen with loading by saturation of an oxide, although presumably that should also prevent rotting. Oxide loading, however, could result in various colours. But according to Charles Besnainou thick untreated gut can also be reddish or yellowish in hue. I don't think colour is necessarilly always a sign of loading. Aren't Georges Stoppani's strings rather red. I am not of course suggesting tht they are prone to rot, but nor are they loaded (although he may have made a few in experiments). Nice to hear from you again Best wishes Anthony __ De : JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl AEUR : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 21h45 Objet : [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute Maybe, but then how will you explain a quote from Mace p.66: I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very good; yet but seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, very good; but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly rotten. As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of loaded string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly rotten? All best Jaroslaw WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paAA-o 2012, o godz. 21:12: Loading, to a certain extent does protect against humidity changes. Perhaps there may have been other treatments that we don't know about. Anthony __ De : Sam Chapman [1]manchap...@gmail.com A : alexander [2]voka...@verizon.net Cc : Mark Probert [3]probe...@gmail.com; lute-cs. edu [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 18h03 Objet : [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute Interesting. Weren't strings sometimes also treated with certain oils - almond oil I think? I hadn't realised that this could potentially protect against humidity changes. Sam On 6 October 2012 15:05, alexander [1][1][5]voka...@verizon.net wrote: It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and design is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is, lute, the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences the tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string mole while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to solve anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences observed here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material to the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings, consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its' own). Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing it with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize something here, right? I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard, but early - baroque - bowed instruments as well as some later violins, especially those built and used in bad climes, had the inner wood surfaces treated with the mixture of hide glue and linseed oil. (There were actually some arguing this might have improved the instrument sound - to some tastes, that is, just off the top of my head - look up Frederick Castle's Violin tone peculiarities). Some other varnishes on the inner wood surface were observed as well. I have seen them on museum instruments. And some varnishes penetrated the wood deeply enough to create more wood stability. Think Cremona here. Protecting the inner wood surface of the lute would do much more to stabilize its' tuning in the case of rapid weather changes. But this will never happen, i would hazard to guess. Chasing a perfect string - there is the solution, of course. alexander r. On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:17:41 +1000 Mark Probert [2][2][6]probe...@gmail.com wrote: My $0.02, living in Sydney Australia, is that nylgut mitigates some of he effect of fairly extreme weather changes. We can have a thunder storm roll in and have the temperature drop by 10+C in the space of as many minutes. Gut just gives up in those
[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?
I have still got some Sofracob dating from the early 70s. I haven't tried them again on my lute as they seem rather dry (but not at all rotten). I should do so, perhaps, as if they are like the so-called boyaux of bicyle wheels they may have become excellent and strong ... Seriously, Martin Shepherd has said he loved Sofracob strings, and Charles Besnainou told me what an interesting man the owner of that company was. I imagine that houses were very humid in the hey day of gut stringing, and poorly treated gut strings might go soft and mouldy. That is probably why it was advised to keep them in oil. These days in town flats perhaps they are more prone to dry out. There are no doubt many people such as Martin or Martyn who have more experience with stocking gut strings over a long time, and who are better able to answer this question than I am. Regards Anthony __ De : Bernd Haegemann b...@symbol4.de A : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 22h08 Objet : [LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics? This discussion reminded me of the 10 metres of Sofracob, fitting for the first course of my 13ch lute, that still were in a box in the cupboard. I made me a chanterelle and it is rather good, still not broken after 3 days, though with a strangely sticky and hard touch for a nylon player. The sound lacks warmth and sustain. Today then a rehearsal in a crowded room: had to tune that string after every piece. No problem, but if I imagine all the strings in gut: OMG! But what is your opinion now about that material: is it too old? (must have been ordered 8 years ago). What is meant by rotten? Best regards Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?
I find gut's overtone poverty sensuously insufferable as well. RT Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: I think there may be a sensual texture versus perfect intonation perference that may draw some, while others shy away. However, that was not the issue raised by Benjamin, but relative rather than absolute pitch (I think). Regards Anthony __ De : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com AEUR : JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 21h14 Objet : [LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics? The beauty of gut sound is greatly compromised by gut's insufferable intonation, especially on the octaved courses. RT Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2012, at 2:39 PM, JarosAA'aw Lipski [1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Yes, varnishing helps, but doesn't totally stop a string absorbing humidity. It rather protects from wear and tear.I tried them. They sound duller, inferior to normal gut and are not historical strings. This is what MP writes about them on his website: Gut strings are varnished in order to protect the strings from wear and tear. The varnishing of strings is not a historical process; the earliest samples of varnished strings we have found only date back to the 1920-30s. A varnished string has a somewhat duller sound and the attack under the bow is slightly more difficult and liable to whistle. When I use gut I do it for it's beautifull sound, so the idea of something that has neither advantages of synthetics nor gut doesn't really suit me. All the best Jaroslaw WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Sam Chapman w dniu 6 paAA-o 2012, o godz. 17:34: Well, there's gut and there's varnished gut. The latter may not have been used historically, but it absorbs much less humidity from the air and sweat from the fingers, therefore staying in tune well, maintaining it's tone quality and lasting longer. That said, I've not had much experience using varnished gut in concerts, but am now considering it as possibly a good compromise. It's certainly closer to plain gut in terms of feel and sound than any kind of synthetic string. Benjamin, what kind of gut do you use? best, Sam On 6 October 2012 12:26, Jaros^3aw Lipski [1][2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: No, it isn't a new problem. This is what Mattheson writes (1727) answering Baron in his book Ephorus, naming disadvantages of the lute: Because of the many strings, and special strings (gut-strings) which depend more on stable temperature and humidity than other instruments (to stay in tune). We don't know how gut strings of the past differed from modern ones, but just one thing shouldn't be disregarded - gut absorbs humidity from the air, synthetics do not. Why synthetics go out of tune? Because of the temperature differences and bigger elasticity. From my experience I can only say that after changing a Nylgut string it takes quite a lot of time before it can be used for a concert, however then it stays in tune better than gut. But obviously it is possible to play a concert on gut strings providing that it is not in a very humid place (or one with changing air conditions). I wouldn't mix gut with synthetics though, as each material goes different way. So my advice is use either synthetics or gut depending on your wallet's size :) Best regards Jaroslaw WiadomoP:ae napisana przez Mark Probert w dniu 6 pa 1/4 2012, o godz. 04:17: Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? This is not a new problem, though I do believe that synthetics help. Kind regards -- mark. To get on or off this list see list information at [2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:[4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 2. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?
You would have had a hard time back with the ancients ... On the other hand, some have said how they have tried sanding synthetics (carbons actually) to reduce their tendancy to what they have called a bell note. I don't doubt, however, that we all have personal preferences, and there is a place for choice. I was not the author of the title of this question : ie what is the point of synthetics, I was merely discussing the question of relative in tuneness with different string types on the same lute or across instruments. You may also have noticed that I have often reported on research on synthetic strings about which I happend to have heard. I would very much like to see a synthetic string type which works for trebles, meanes and basses, making wirewounds unnecessary and which have the homogenous sound quality that equivalent gut stringing has. Who knows I might even be tempted to use it myself, but in any case I would have the pleasure of hearing many more lutes without wirewounds (although I am hijacking Benjamin's thread, and side tracking the question, for which I apologize). Regards Anthony __ De : Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com A : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 22h27 Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics? I find gut's overtone poverty sensuously insufferable as well. RT Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: I think there may be a sensual texture versus perfect intonation perference that may draw some, while others shy away. However, that was not the issue raised by Benjamin, but relative rather than absolute pitch (I think). Regards Anthony __ De : Roman Turovsky [2]r.turov...@gmail.com AEUR : JarosAA'aw Lipski [3]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc : [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 21h14 Objet : [LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics? The beauty of gut sound is greatly compromised by gut's insufferable intonation, especially on the octaved courses. RT Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2012, at 2:39 PM, JarosAA'aw Lipski [1][6]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Yes, varnishing helps, but doesn't totally stop a string absorbing humidity. It rather protects from wear and tear.I tried them. They sound duller, inferior to normal gut and are not historical strings. This is what MP writes about them on his website: Gut strings are varnished in order to protect the strings from wear and tear. The varnishing of strings is not a historical process; the earliest samples of varnished strings we have found only date back to the 1920-30s. A varnished string has a somewhat duller sound and the attack under the bow is slightly more difficult and liable to whistle. When I use gut I do it for it's beautifull sound, so the idea of something that has neither advantages of synthetics nor gut doesn't really suit me. All the best Jaroslaw WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Sam Chapman w dniu 6 paAA-o 2012, o godz. 17:34: Well, there's gut and there's varnished gut. The latter may not have been used historically, but it absorbs much less humidity from the air and sweat from the fingers, therefore staying in tune well, maintaining it's tone quality and lasting longer. That said, I've not had much experience using varnished gut in concerts, but am now considering it as possibly a good compromise. It's certainly closer to plain gut in terms of feel and sound than any kind of synthetic string. Benjamin, what kind of gut do you use? best, Sam On 6 October 2012 12:26, Jaros^3aw Lipski [1][2][7]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: No, it isn't a new problem. This is what Mattheson writes (1727) answering Baron in his book Ephorus, naming disadvantages of the lute: Because of the many strings, and special strings (gut-strings) which depend more on stable temperature and humidity than other instruments (to stay in tune). We don't know how gut strings of the past differed from modern ones, but just one thing shouldn't be disregarded - gut absorbs humidity from the air, synthetics do not. Why synthetics go out of tune? Because of the temperature differences and bigger elasticity. From my experience I can only say that after changing a Nylgut string it takes quite a lot of time before it can be used for a concert, however then it stays in tune better than gut. But
[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics
Dear Anthony, I understood from MP's website that one of the strong arguments for loaded basses is iconography which quite consistently shows red or brown-red bass strings, which are supposed to had been loaded using oxides of lead, copper, iron etc. We know from pictures that mainly basses were red or reddish and if they were only dyed (as Mace described), how can one discern them from loaded strings, and how one can take iconography as an evidence of loading if there is no difference between 2 types of strings on paintings? From Mace's description I get an impression that he talks about ordinary red dyed guts: There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other then thick Venice-catlines, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red color The same person writes on the same page that red colored strings are commonly rotten. For me it signifies that they were rather normally dyed, but not loaded. Obviously there is an argument about bridge holes etc, but I wouldn't like to return to our old discussion which in my opinion is quite difficult to solve at the moment without any new data. Meanwhile (returning to our topic), I don't think one needs to prove superiority of one string material over another. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. Nice to hear from you too. Best wishes Jaroslaw P.S. I am not against loaded bass theory, I'm just trying to asses all information objectively. Wiadomość napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 22:13: Oh I was only speaking about modern loaded strings, that at present are covered in the copper loading. I don't know what would happen with loading by saturation of an oxide, although presumably that should also prevent rotting. Oxide loading, however, could result in various colours. But according to Charles Besnainou thick untreated gut can also be reddish or yellowish in hue. I don't think colour is necessarilly always a sign of loading. Aren't Georges Stoppani's strings rather red. I am not of course suggesting tht they are prone to rot, but nor are they loaded (although he may have made a few in experiments). Nice to hear from you again Best wishes Anthony __ De : JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl AEUR : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 21h45 Objet : [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute Maybe, but then how will you explain a quote from Mace p.66: I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very good; yet but seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, very good; but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly rotten. As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of loaded string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly rotten? All best Jaroslaw WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paAA-o 2012, o godz. 21:12: Loading, to a certain extent does protect against humidity changes. Perhaps there may have been other treatments that we don't know about. Anthony __ De : Sam Chapman [1]manchap...@gmail.com A : alexander [2]voka...@verizon.net Cc : Mark Probert [3]probe...@gmail.com; lute-cs. edu [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 18h03 Objet : [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute Interesting. Weren't strings sometimes also treated with certain oils - almond oil I think? I hadn't realised that this could potentially protect against humidity changes. Sam On 6 October 2012 15:05, alexander [1][1][5]voka...@verizon.net wrote: It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and design is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is, lute, the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences the tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string mole while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to solve anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences observed here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material to the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings, consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its' own). Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing it with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize something here, right? I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard, but
[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?
There is no indication (naver mind proof) that our gut string-making technology were in any way authentic. RT On 10/6/2012 4:44 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: You would have had a hard time back with the ancients ... On the other hand, some have said how they have tried sanding synthetics (carbons actually) to reduce their tendancy to what they have called a bell note. I don't doubt, however, that we all have personal preferences, and there is a place for choice. I was not the author of the title of this question : ie what is the point of synthetics, I was merely discussing the question of relative in tuneness with different string types on the same lute or across instruments. You may also have noticed that I have often reported on research on synthetic strings about which I happend to have heard. I would very much like to see a synthetic string type which works for trebles, meanes and basses, making wirewounds unnecessary and which have the homogenous sound quality that equivalent gut stringing has. Who knows I might even be tempted to use it myself, but in any case I would have the pleasure of hearing many more lutes without wirewounds (although I am hijacking Benjamin's thread, and side tracking the question, for which I apologize). Regards Anthony __ De : Roman Turovsky [1]r.turov...@gmail.com A : Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc : [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 22h27 Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics? I find gut's overtone poverty sensuously insufferable as well. RT Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Anthony Hind [5]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: I think there may be a sensual texture versus perfect intonation perference that may draw some, while others shy away. However, that was not the issue raised by Benjamin, but relative rather than absolute pitch (I think). Regards Anthony __ De : Roman Turovsky [6]r.turov...@gmail.com AEUR : JarosAA'aw Lipski [7]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc : [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 21h14 Objet : [LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics? The beauty of gut sound is greatly compromised by gut's insufferable intonation, especially on the octaved courses. RT Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2012, at 2:39 PM, JarosAA'aw Lipski [1][10]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Yes, varnishing helps, but doesn't totally stop a string absorbing humidity. It rather protects from wear and tear.I tried them. They sound duller, inferior to normal gut and are not historical strings. This is what MP writes about them on his website: Gut strings are varnished in order to protect the strings from wear and tear. The varnishing of strings is not a historical process; the earliest samples of varnished strings we have found only date back to the 1920-30s. A varnished string has a somewhat duller sound and the attack under the bow is slightly more difficult and liable to whistle. When I use gut I do it for it's beautifull sound, so the idea of something that has neither advantages of synthetics nor gut doesn't really suit me. All the best Jaroslaw WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Sam Chapman w dniu 6 paAA-o 2012, o godz. 17:34: Well, there's gut and there's varnished gut. The latter may not have been used historically, but it absorbs much less humidity from the air and sweat from the fingers, therefore staying in tune well, maintaining it's tone quality and lasting longer. That said, I've not had much experience using varnished gut in concerts, but am now considering it as possibly a good compromise. It's certainly closer to plain gut in terms of feel and sound than any kind of synthetic string. Benjamin, what kind of gut do you use? best, Sam On 6 October 2012 12:26, Jaros^3aw Lipski [1][2][11]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: No, it isn't a new problem. This is what Mattheson writes (1727) answering Baron in his book Ephorus, naming disadvantages of the lute: Because of the many strings, and special strings (gut-strings) which depend more on stable temperature and humidity than other instruments (to stay in tune). We don't know how gut strings of the past differed from modern ones, but just one thing shouldn't be disregarded - gut absorbs humidity from the air, synthetics do not. Why synthetics go out of tune? Because of the temperature differences and bigger elasticity. From my experience I
[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute
On Oct 6, 2012, at 12:45 PM, Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Maybe, but then how will you explain a quote from Mace p.66: I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very good; yet but seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, very good; but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly rotten. As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of loaded string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly rotten? There's a lot of speculation in your question. Here's more. Mace may have been describing minor differences in color. He could have been describing a string as red or yellow for all sorts of reasons: inherent color of the intestine, impurities in the processing, some microbial or fungal contaminant, the color of Mace's spectacles or the kinds of candles he used, the string maker cutting his finger while he made the string and twisting his own blood into the string (I think I just created the Red Violin theory of string making), Mace examining the string while the sun was setting--who knows? Obviously, I'm not inclined to regard Mace as a scientific observer; more like the eccentric uncle who makes dubious sweeping pronouncements at family dinners. Maybe he got one reddish string once and didn't like it, and generalized in a way that most of us do in casual conversation. Most of the gut strings I've used could be described as yellow, and none have been rotten. And what's with clear blue? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
