[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Concerts of French Baroque lute music
Further information on the French baroque lute concerts : 1) Recital at Rowan University, march 3 at 8 pm : http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 2) Recital in Boston : booked out 3) Recital in Philadelphia : http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ Anthony __ From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Concerts of French Baroque lute music Sent: Wed, Jan 29, 2014 10:16:38 PM Dear lutenists For those who may be interested these concerts of French baroque lute music are announced: Miguel Yisrael's USA Official Tour 2014 - A The Lute of The Sun King A Concert 1 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Rowan University, New jersey, USA Monday, March 3th of 2014, 8 p.m. Rowan University, Glassboro, New Jersey, USA Concert 2 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Boston, USA Wednesday, March 5th of 2014, 8 p.m. Tickets sold out Concert 3 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Philadelphia Chamber Music Society, Philadelphia, USA Friday March 7th of 2014, 8 p.m. American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia Regards Anthony[1] Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone -- References 1. [1]http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about
tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a
particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the
archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher octave (ie
non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your
stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different names
for the same instrument('The terms arciliuto and tiorba are
high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any of the
tablature sources
MH
__
From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does not
fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of
square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms
high-degree interchangeable.
Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there
is
no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the
absence
is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer
styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition.
dt
__
From: jean-michel Catherinot [1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
To: R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de; lute
[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn
Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider
that
most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be
this
is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that
tuning
is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for
arciliuto
and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide:
ambitus
and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said,
obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others
it
seems, I'm trying to list them), and the concerti from Harrach
collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of
the
solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto
with
two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from
the
Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the
Royal
Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for
arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at
Rohrau.
Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while
renaming
the picture untitled tuorbe in archiluth, he corrects a mistake
he
has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives
quite
clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two
tunings for archiluth in G and A.
Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our subject,
but...): at first 2 points, I don't know any tablature evidence of
the
use of vieil ton after ca1640. If this type of lute would be used,
it's
very strange that there is no written music for it (not a note).
The
only strange book of Delair gives the impression that the tuning
could
be not re-entrant: but it's a quite basic book, which only gives
solution for chords, not to play a B.C., and also dedicated to the
harpsichord (did Delair even play the theorbo?). The others
(Grenerin,
Fleury,...) work with re-entrant tuning, even if the solutions
could
be
strange for us (but what about the guitar?).
I think the discontinuity you quote about the lines, with wide
laps,
is
inherent to the theorbo. In very clear solo theorbo pieces, with no
doubt on tuning as Saizenay, you find those strange laps, even in
de
VisA(c)e. It is also very common in guitar pieces, (have a look to
Monica Hall's site). And even changing the tuning doesn't solve
the
problem: you allways find those dicontinuities. This begins with
Piccinini from
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
You write 'People like the archlute-theorbo duality. It isn't historical' Many historical sources describe the differences between the two instruments (Bob Spencer's article still represents a good summary - see link I gave earlier) and, of course, the tablature sources clearly show the differences in tuning of the top courses. MH __ From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 5:54 Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 __ Well, if the surviving instruments are, as you say, not reliable, they are still the most reliable of the information we have. However, the surviving instruments are IMHO rare, valuable, informative, vivid and concise. Like any document or postcard from the past, they need to be interpreted. As for labels, I see that as the root of the problem, and essentially a reinterpretation of the based based on the ever changing tastes ofthe present. People like the archlute-theorbo duality. It isn't historical, but people like it. The terms are partially historical, of course, they just create an artificial duality. I don't like it, but that's just because it think it filters out a lot of possibilities. I think one could come up with a better label system, but that isn't going to happen because the lute business is a market driven business, it is not an academic enterprise. In the case of Weiss, you have conflicting information, Weiss's letter, and the surviving parts. Take away the labels, and the problem goes away. Mostly. dt From: jean-michel Catherinot [1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com To: David Tayler [2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net; lute [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 1:18 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 If you read the previous messages, and specially, the one from Arthur Ness, you may notice that some of the arciliuto obligato parts in Dresden opera would be by Weiss's own hand. So it seems that arciliuto was eventually practiced by him, at least on stage: it looks that arciliuto was not an ennemy for him! Concerning the instruments, luthiers are more competent: but I've seen some in Europe (it was easy to have in your hands the instruments of the Paris conservatoire at the time, and I helped to draw the plans of some of them, or in Bruxelles and Nueremberg), and not many in their initial shape (many transformed in guitar, shortened, with guitar bridge, ...). So surviving instruments are not such a reliable sourceAnyway, the main information in this letter is that at least 3 types of instruments exist, and different from each others, at Weiss' time: lute, arciliuto and theorbo. And it is not a question of label, it's a question of tuning and quantity of noise it produces! Le Mardi 28 janvier 2014 2h41, David Tayler [4]vidan...@sbcglobal.net a ecrit : __ This is a very interesting quote because it falls in between the classical divisions of prescriptive and descriptive. So it is sort of descriptive in that Weiss is setting up a straw lute argument by describing and then downgrading the other (non-Weiss) instruments, and then it is both self-descriptive and prescriptive in that he goes on to describe the superior instrument, which of course he would be compelled by the rules of rhetoric to claim to have partially invented. You could argue based on this quote that no one played the gallichon, but of course that won't fly nowadays. In analyzing the quote, there is no way to know if it is true or not, but there is certainly no reason to doubt that Weiss had all or some custom instruments. However, there is also no reason to doubt that any of his competitors would not have had custom instruments, which would render his entire argument moot. Certainly it was standard procedure for someone to claim that their method was the right one and everyone else had it wrong, and musicologists rightly take such statements in that context. So for example, most German composers claim that they brought French music to Germany. And therefore those statements are all pretty much suspect. But--it certainly helps make the case that professionals had custom instruments and custom tunings, which would mean that new labels must be invented and applied (the Weiss Theorbo, etc.) or one could stay away
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
You write 'So for example, some large lutes had double strings. Mostly these lutes have disappeared'. This is, in fact, the opposite of the case: most extant large extended peghead lutes exhibit double stringing on the fingerboard. MH __ From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 5:57 Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 That's an interesting set of labels but it doesn't cover all the historical cases. So for example, some large lutes had double strings. Mostly these lutes have disappeared. However, if anyone chooses to make a concordance nowadays to sort out the old lutes, I can see why one would want to do that. You could also have two types of every instrument. dt __ From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: David Tayler [2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net; lute [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 1:59 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 This doesn't address the point I made to you: that the fundamental difference between the archlute and the theorbo is in the manner of stringing - theorbos have the top one or two courses lowered from nominal; archlutes do not. If you don't think this is the case then, to repeat, what's your evidence (ie not merely simple assertion) for supposing otherwise? Further, it is widely understood that there is great diversity in the configuration and shape of these instruments - which is why it is better to identify an instrument in relation to its manner of tuning rather than to any particular physical feature. MH __ From: David Tayler [4]vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 1:16 Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 Well, the evidence is in the museums--there are more than two types of instruments. Therefore, any attempt to categorize the historical lutes as two types does not reflect the historical record. If you look at all the surviving lutes (I haven't seen all of them, but a pretty good percentage over the last 40 years) you will see that most of them are different and there are many types and variations. The label problem is not limited to lutes, it is simply the modern opposite of historical practice. The biggest difference between the way we look at things and the way a 16th or 17th century person would look at things is that we prefer uniformity and they preferred diversity. So the modern take on old instruments is simply a form of acculturation based on a 20th or 21st century point of view. Or you could call it preferential selection, like collecting art works or favorite music works. Preferential selection--collecting things you like or think belong together, like a suite of dances-- is of course historical, just not the way we do it. Another way to look at it: if one labels as an archlute an instrument with a certain size tuning, you instantly create such an instrument, and possibly exclude others. However, if you use a neutral label, you can describe an instrument type. So pluckies, as folksy as it sounds, is historically a much more accurate term., and does not cause the disappearance of an instrument or group of instruments, like the double strung theorbo. One could try to argue that the terms are highly specific, and I would then simply direct people to the the lists of CDs over the last forty years, and you can see different fads about what is an archlute, chitarrone and so on. It clearly changes over time because it is an ongoing process of acculturation, or follows market driven ideas of what will sell or what is popular. And there is nothing wrong with that, it just is pretty far from the original sources. One of the surprising things about the internet is that now a lot of unusual and possibly historical instrument designs are resurfacing, owing to these same market forces. dt __ From: Martyn Hodgson [1][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: David Tayler [2][7]vidan...@sbcglobal.net; lute [3][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:39 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 You write that 'The terms arciliuto and tiorba are
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I think Diego Cantaluppi, in his thesis on theorbo (I suppose you can read italian), gives very clear arguments on the subject. Once again, it's a question of sound, not of label (to give names and labels is not the question). And indeed we can choose our own practice (you do it very well), if it is the point you address. You turn all the arguments in a strange way i.e.: concerning the instrument, when I said it's not such a reliable source, it answered your assertion that surviving ones are proofs (and now you turn it in they have to be interpreted, which is true but not what you said previously). Concerning the supposed conflict in the Weiss's letter and arciliuto parts: where is the conflict?? Concerning staff notation: there are extremely rare examples of lute parts in staff notation (Fasch's concerto?, and not sure it's for D min tuning) . Concerning vieil ton in France: I don't know any lute or theorbo piece or whatever you call that instrument in staff notation at any time except Perrine: so no doubt on the tuning, and no archiluth-type stringing (or whatever you call it) in France as a solo instrument. Nor I didn't find any piece of Weiss for lute in mesural notation, neither Hagen, Durant...Wher did you find lute parts in mensural? It would be very interesting for my research. What I noticed is that parts for arciliuto named explicitely are written in mensural (and indeed BC for all the instruments). Le Vendredi 31 janvier 2014 7h23, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net a ecrit : I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form of notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying that it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient in showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as well, such as ornamentation. Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does not fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms high-degree interchangeable. Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there is no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the absence is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition. dt __ From: jean-michel Catherinot [1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com To: R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de; lute [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider that most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be this is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that tuning is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for arciliuto and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide: ambitus and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said, obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others it seems, I'm trying to list them), and the concerti from Harrach collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of the solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto with two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from the Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the Royal Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at Rohrau. Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while renaming the picture untitled tuorbe in archiluth, he corrects a mistake he has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives quite clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two tunings for archiluth in G and A. Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our subject, but...): at first 2 points, I don't know any tablature evidence of the use of vieil ton after ca1640. If this type of lute would be used, it's very strange that there is no written music for it (not a note). The only strange book of Delair gives the impression that the tuning could be not re-entrant: but it's a quite basic book, which only gives solution for chords, not to play a B.C.,
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
The biggest difference between the way we look at things and the way a 16th or 17th century person would look at things is that we prefer uniformity and they preferred diversity.: how do you know that? Le Vendredi 31 janvier 2014 10h17, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com a ecrit : I think Diego Cantaluppi, in his thesis on theorbo (I suppose you can read italian), gives very clear arguments on the subject. Once again, it's a question of sound, not of label (to give names and labels is not the question). And indeed we can choose our own practice (you do it very well), if it is the point you address. You turn all the arguments in a strange way i.e.: concerning the instrument, when I said it's not such a reliable source, it answered your assertion that surviving ones are proofs (and now you turn it in they have to be interpreted, which is true but not what you said previously). Concerning the supposed conflict in the Weiss's letter and arciliuto parts: where is the conflict?? Concerning staff notation: there are extremely rare examples of lute parts in staff notation (Fasch's concerto?, and not sure it's for D min tuning) . Concerning vieil ton in France: I don't know any lute or theorbo piece or whatever you call that instrument in staff notation at any time except Perrine: so no doubt on the tuning, and no archiluth-type stringing (or whatever you call it) in France as a solo instrument. Nor I didn't find any piece of Weiss for lute in mesural notation, neither Hagen, Durant...Wher did you find lute parts in mensural? It would be very interesting for my research. What I noticed is that parts for arciliuto named explicitely are written in mensural (and indeed BC for all the instruments). Le Vendredi 31 janvier 2014 7h23, David Tayler [1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net a ecrit : I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form of notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying that it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient in showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as well, such as ornamentation. Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does not fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms high-degree interchangeable. Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there is no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the absence is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition. dt __ From: jean-michel Catherinot [1][2]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com To: R. Mattes [2][3]r...@mh-freiburg.de; lute [3][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson [4][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider that most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be this is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that tuning is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for arciliuto and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide: ambitus and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said, obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others it seems, I'm trying to list them), and the concerti from Harrach collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of the solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto with two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from the Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the Royal Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at Rohrau. Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while renaming the picture untitled tuorbe in archiluth, he corrects a mistake he has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives quite clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two tunings
[LUTE] Re: Concerts
Further information on the French baroque lute concerts : 1) Recital at Rowan University, march 3 at 8 pm : [1]http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 2) Recital in Boston : booked out 3) Recital in Philadelphia : [2]http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ On 29 janv. 2014, at 23:15, Anthony Hind [3]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear lutenists For those who may be interested these concerts of French baroque lute music are announced: Miguel Yisrael's USA Official Tour 2014 - A The Lute of The Sun King A Concert 1 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Rowan University, New jersey, USA Monday, March 3th of 2014, 8 p.m. Rowan University, Glassboro, New Jersey, USA Concert 2 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Boston, USA Wednesday, March 5th of 2014, 8 p.m. Tickets sold out Concert 3 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Philadelphia Chamber Music Society, Philadelphia, USA Friday March 7th of 2014, 8 p.m. American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia Regards Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 2. http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ 3. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Concerts
A link apparently wasn't working so here they are again: CONCERT INFO Miguel Yisrael USA Tour 2014 1) Recital at Rowan University, [1]March 3 of 2014 [2]at 8 pm :[3]http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 2) Recital in Boston, [4]March 5 of 2014 [5]at 8 pm: booked out 3) Recital in Philadelphia, [6]March 7 of 2014 [7]at 8 pm:[8]http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ On 31 janv. 2014, at 10:57, Anthony Hind [9]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: Further information on the French baroque lute concerts : 1) Recital at Rowan University, march 3 at 8 pm : [1][10]http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 2) Recital in Boston : booked out 3) Recital in Philadelphia : [2][11]http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ On 29 janv. 2014, at 23:15, Anthony Hind [3][12]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear lutenists For those who may be interested these concerts of French baroque lute music are announced: Miguel Yisrael's USA Official Tour 2014 - A The Lute of The Sun King A Concert 1 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Rowan University, New jersey, USA Monday, March 3th of 2014, 8 p.m. Rowan University, Glassboro, New Jersey, USA Concert 2 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Boston, USA Wednesday, March 5th of 2014, 8 p.m. Tickets sold out Concert 3 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Philadelphia Chamber Music Society, Philadelphia, USA Friday March 7th of 2014, 8 p.m. American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia Regards Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [14]http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 2. [15]http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ 3. [16]mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 4. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. x-apple-data-detectors://0/ 2. x-apple-data-detectors://1/ 3. http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 4. x-apple-data-detectors://3/ 5. x-apple-data-detectors://4/ 6. x-apple-data-detectors://5/ 7. x-apple-data-detectors://6/ 8. http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ 9. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 10. http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 11. http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ 12. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 15. http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ 16. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
What is the etymology of the word tiorba?
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 12:03 AM
To: David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about
tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a
particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the
archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher octave (ie
non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your
stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different names
for the same instrument('The terms arciliuto and tiorba are
high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any of the
tablature sources
MH
__
From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does not
fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of
square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms
high-degree interchangeable.
Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there
is
no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the
absence
is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer
styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition.
dt
__
From: jean-michel Catherinot [1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
To: R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de; lute
[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn
Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider
that
most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be
this
is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that
tuning
is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for
arciliuto
and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide:
ambitus
and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said,
obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others
it
seems, I'm trying to list them), and the concerti from Harrach
collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of
the
solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto
with
two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from
the
Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the
Royal
Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for
arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at
Rohrau.
Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while
renaming
the picture untitled tuorbe in archiluth, he corrects a mistake
he
has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives
quite
clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two
tunings for archiluth in G and A.
Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our subject,
but...): at first 2 points, I don't know any tablature evidence of
the
use of vieil ton after ca1640. If this type of lute would be used,
it's
very strange that there is no written music for it (not a note).
The
only strange book of Delair gives the impression that the tuning
could
be not re-entrant: but it's a quite basic book, which only gives
solution for chords, not to play a B.C., and also dedicated to the
harpsichord (did Delair even play the theorbo?). The others
(Grenerin,
Fleury,...) work with re-entrant tuning, even if the solutions
could
be
strange for us (but what about the guitar?).
I think the discontinuity you quote about the lines, with wide
laps,
is
inherent to the theorbo. In very clear solo theorbo pieces, with no
doubt on tuning as Saizenay, you find
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
For what it's worth, here's what Wikipedia has to say:
The etymology of the name tiorba has not yet been explained
sufficiently. It is hypothesized that its origin might have been in the
Slavic or Turkish torba, meaning bag or turban. According to
[1]Athanasius Kircher, tiorba was a nickname in the Neapolitan dialect
that actually denoted the grinding board used by perfumers for grinding
essence and herbs.^[2][1]
^
^Bill
From: Arthur Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net
To: 'Martyn Hodgson' hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; 'David Tayler'
vidan...@sbcglobal.net; 'lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 21:45
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
What is the etymology of the word tiorba?
-Original Message-
From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 12:03 AM
To: David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about
tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a
particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the
archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher octave
(ie
non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your
stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different
names
for the same instrument('The terms arciliuto and tiorba are
high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any of
the
tablature sources
MH
__
From: David Tayler [5]vidan...@sbcglobal.net
To: lute [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of
brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying
that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more
efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does
not
fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity
of
square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms
high-degree interchangeable.
Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation,
there
is
no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the
absence
is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer
styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition.
dt
__
From: jean-michel Catherinot
[1][7]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
To: R. Mattes [2][8]r...@mh-freiburg.de; lute
[3][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn
Hodgson [4][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider
that
most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be
this
is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that
tuning
is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for
arciliuto
and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide:
ambitus
and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said,
obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others
it
seems, I'm trying to list them), and the concerti from Harrach
collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of
the
solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto
with
two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from
the
Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the
Royal
Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for
arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at
Rohrau.
Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while
renaming
the picture untitled tuorbe in archiluth, he corrects a
mistake
he
has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives
quite
clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two
tunings for archiluth in G and A.
Concerning the use of
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Jakob Lindberg had a funny speculation: In the old Venice dialect ti
orba meant I'll blind you.
Just think the problems with the long extension neck...
Once I happened to hit the director of a choir, when he arrived to the
front of the choir and me with the theorbo; tiny river of blood in his
head did not harm his work, luckily...
Arto
On 31/01/14 23:45, Arthur Ness wrote:
What is the etymology of the word tiorba?
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 12:03 AM
To: David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about
tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a
particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the
archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher octave (ie
non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your
stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different names
for the same instrument('The terms arciliuto and tiorba are
high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any of the
tablature sources
MH
__
From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does not
fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of
square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms
high-degree interchangeable.
Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there
is
no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the
absence
is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer
styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition.
dt
__
From: jean-michel Catherinot [1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
To: R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de; lute
[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn
Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider
that
most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be
this
is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that
tuning
is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for
arciliuto
and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide:
ambitus
and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said,
obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others
it
seems, I'm trying to list them), and the concerti from Harrach
collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of
the
solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto
with
two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from
the
Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the
Royal
Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for
arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at
Rohrau.
Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while
renaming
the picture untitled tuorbe in archiluth, he corrects a mistake
he
has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives
quite
clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two
tunings for archiluth in G and A.
Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our subject,
but...): at first 2 points, I don't know any tablature evidence of
the
use of vieil ton after ca1640. If this type of lute would be used,
it's
very strange that there is no written music for it (not a note).
The
only strange book of Delair gives the impression that the tuning
could
be not re-entrant: but it's a quite basic book, which only gives
solution for chords, not
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
see:
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Instrumente/Mandore_Instrumente.html
1650: Athanasius Kircher, Musurgia universalis sive ars magna consoni et
dissoni in X. libros digesta, Band 1 2 Rom (Corbellettos Erben) 1650
Der folgende Beitrag stammt von Dr. Joachim Lüdtke und erfasst alle Stellen in
Kirchers Werk, die sich mit der Mandore befassen und eine sehr interessante
Passage über die Theorbe.
Originaltexte:
[Aufgelöste Abbreviaturen sind durch spitze Klammern gekennzeichnet:
postque.
Marginalien, die in den Text integriert sind, sind durch geschweifte Klammern
gekennzeichnet: {Die Lauten ein schwierigs Instrument zu meistern}.
Der doppelte Bindestrich wird durch einfachen Bindestrich wiedergegeben.
Umlaute, die durch Superposition des E über den entsprechenden Vokal
ausgedrückt sind, wurden durch die heute üblichen Schreibweisen (ä, ö, ü)
ersetzt.
Groß- und Kleinschreibung der Texte sind getreu wiedergegeben; die Majuskeln
des Titels der Originalausgabe von 1650 sind mit Ausnahme des Beginns
konsequent in Kleinschreibung umgesetzt worden.]
Artis Magnae Consoni, et Dissoni Lib. VI. De Musica Instrumentali.
Caput II. De Testudinibus, Mandoris, et Cytharis.
Inuentum Neotericum est, cùm apud Antiquos nulla fiat horum instrumentorum
mentio, Tiorba nomen suum inuenit à Circumforaneo quodam Neapolitano, qui
primus testudinis collum productius duplicauit; chordas diuersas addidit, cùm
primò non nisi barytono seruiret, atque hoc instrumentum ioco quodam vocare
solebat Tiorbam; vocant autem Tiorbam id instrumentum, quo Chirothecarij
odorifera molere solent, estque mortarium quoddam prorsus simile molulis
illis, quibus amygdala, synapi, aliaquae grana in superaffuso liquore
conuenienti in lac dissoluere solent.
Die Theorbe hat ihren Namen von einem gewissen neapolitanischen Marktschreier
bekommen, welcher als erster den Hals der Laute verlängert und verdoppelt hat.
Er hat verschiedene Saiten hinzugefügt, deren erste lediglich für den Bariton
dienlich ist, und pflegte dieses Instrument scherzhafterweise Theorbe zu
nennen. Theorbe wird nämlich dasjenige Werkzeug genannt, mit welchem die
Handschuhmacher Duftharze zu mahlen pflegen, und das ist ein gewisser Mörser,
jenen kleinen Mühlen ganz ähnlich, mit denen man Mandelkerne, Senf und andere
Körner in darüber gegossener geeigneter Flüssigkeit zu Milch zu lösen pflegt.
Andreas
Am 31.01.2014 um 19:57 schrieb William Samson:
For what it's worth, here's what Wikipedia has to say:
The etymology of the name tiorba has not yet been explained
sufficiently. It is hypothesized that its origin might have been in the
Slavic or Turkish torba, meaning bag or turban. According to
[1]Athanasius Kircher, tiorba was a nickname in the Neapolitan dialect
that actually denoted the grinding board used by perfumers for grinding
essence and herbs.^[2][1]
^
^Bill
From: Arthur Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net
To: 'Martyn Hodgson' hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; 'David Tayler'
vidan...@sbcglobal.net; 'lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 21:45
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
What is the etymology of the word tiorba?
-Original Message-
From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 12:03 AM
To: David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about
tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a
particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the
archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher octave
(ie
non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your
stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different
names
for the same instrument('The terms arciliuto and tiorba are
high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any of
the
tablature sources
MH
__
From: David Tayler [5]vidan...@sbcglobal.net
To: lute [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of
brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying
that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more
efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
At a concert here in Boston many years ago, POD was on stage with his tiorbo
and a guitarist was serenading the audience while dancing in the aisles.
To end he wanted to be on stage, but Paul's tiorbo was blocking the steps.
Paul did a double take and raised the instrument like a railroad crossing
gate, and the dancer gained the stage to take his bows.
I had heard (can't recall where) that the term has some meaning with trees
or branches. But I couldn't find a closely related word. What I heard was
probably just modern speculation like ti orbo. --Arthur
I've been looking at PANs today, Andi
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Arto Wikla
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 11:01 AM
To: Arthur Ness; Martyn Hodgson; David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Jakob Lindberg had a funny speculation: In the old Venice dialect ti orba
meant I'll blind you.
Just think the problems with the long extension neck...
Once I happened to hit the director of a choir, when he arrived to the front
of the choir and me with the theorbo; tiny river of blood in his head did
not harm his work, luckily...
Arto
On 31/01/14 23:45, Arthur Ness wrote:
What is the etymology of the word tiorba?
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 12:03 AM
To: David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about
tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a
particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the
archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher octave
(ie
non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your
stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different
names
for the same instrument('The terms arciliuto and tiorba are
high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any of
the
tablature sources
MH
__
From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying
that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does
not
fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of
square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms
high-degree interchangeable.
Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there
is
no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the
absence
is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer
styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition.
dt
__
From: jean-michel Catherinot [1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
To: R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de; lute
[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn
Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider
that
most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be
this
is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that
tuning
is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for
arciliuto
and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide:
ambitus
and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said,
obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others
it
seems, I'm trying to list them), and the concerti from Harrach
collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of
the
solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto
with
two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from
the
Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the
Royal
Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for
arciliuto is among
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
No one knows.
The only thing known is that the combination of consonants TRB
is absent in all European languages, except for the Slavic ones.
In Ukrainian TORBA means a sack, and TORBYNA means, well, a smaller sack.
RT
On 1/31/2014 4:45 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:
What is the etymology of the word tiorba?
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf
Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 12:03 AM
To: David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about
tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a
particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the
archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher
octave (ie
non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your
stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different
names
for the same instrument('The terms arciliuto and tiorba are
high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any
of the
tablature sources
MH
__
From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard
form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of
brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries
saying that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more
efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that
does not
fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the
superfluity of
square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms
high-degree interchangeable.
Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation,
there
is
no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the
absence
is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer
styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious
competition.
dt
__
From: jean-michel Catherinot [1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
To: R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de; lute
[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn
Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I
consider
that
most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be
this
is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that
tuning
is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for
arciliuto
and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide:
ambitus
and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said,
obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many
others
it
seems, I'm trying to list them), and the concerti from Harrach
collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the
composer of
the
solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for
arciliuto
with
two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from
the
Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the
Royal
Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for
arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber
music at
Rohrau.
Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while
renaming
the picture untitled tuorbe in archiluth, he corrects a
mistake
he
has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives
quite
clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two
tunings for archiluth in G and A.
Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our
subject,
but...): at first 2 points, I don't know any tablature
evidence of
the
use of vieil ton after ca1640. If this type of lute would be
used,
it's
very strange that there is no written music for it (not a note).
The
only strange book of Delair gives the impression that the
tuning
could
be not re-entrant: but it's a quite basic book, which only gives
solution for chords, not to play a B.C., and also dedicated
to the
harpsichord (did Delair even play the
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
An Italian lutenist told me it was the equivalent of de-orba, to de orb
thus to blind, the initial, 'd' would frequently be devoiced, giving teorba,
but it is notoriously difficult to prove the etymology of a single word, and
the explanation while amusing seems un peu tirée par les cheveux as they say
in France.
Regards
Anthony
On 31 janv. 2014, at 20:00, Arto Wikla wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote:
Jakob Lindberg had a funny speculation: In the old Venice dialect ti orba
meant I'll blind you.
Just think the problems with the long extension neck...
Once I happened to hit the director of a choir, when he arrived to the front
of the choir and me with the theorbo; tiny river of blood in his head did not
harm his work, luckily...
Arto
On 31/01/14 23:45, Arthur Ness wrote:
What is the etymology of the word tiorba?
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 12:03 AM
To: David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about
tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a
particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the
archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher octave (ie
non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your
stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different names
for the same instrument('The terms arciliuto and tiorba are
high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any of the
tablature sources
MH
__
From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does not
fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of
square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms
high-degree interchangeable.
Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there
is
no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the
absence
is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer
styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition.
dt
__
From: jean-michel Catherinot [1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
To: R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de; lute
[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn
Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider
that
most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be
this
is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that
tuning
is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for
arciliuto
and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide:
ambitus
and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said,
obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others
it
seems, I'm trying to list them), and the concerti from Harrach
collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of
the
solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto
with
two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from
the
Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the
Royal
Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for
arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at
Rohrau.
Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while
renaming
the picture untitled tuorbe in archiluth, he corrects a mistake
he
has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives
quite
clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two
tunings for archiluth in G and A.
Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our subject,
but...): at
[LUTE] Re: Concerts
A problem still seems to occur, the Rowan university link, should have this last number : 628216 But it has been transformed to b28216. You would need to copy the link and make the correction by hand, strange! Regards Anthony On 31 janv. 2014, at 19:30, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: A link apparently wasn't working so here they are again: CONCERT INFO Miguel Yisrael USA Tour 2014 1) Recital at Rowan University, [1]March 3 of 2014 [2]at 8 pm :[3]http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 2) Recital in Boston, [4]March 5 of 2014 [5]at 8 pm: booked out 3) Recital in Philadelphia, [6]March 7 of 2014 [7]at 8 pm:[8]http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ On 31 janv. 2014, at 10:57, Anthony Hind [9]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: Further information on the French baroque lute concerts : 1) Recital at Rowan University, march 3 at 8 pm : [1][10]http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 2) Recital in Boston : booked out 3) Recital in Philadelphia : [2][11]http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ On 29 janv. 2014, at 23:15, Anthony Hind [3][12]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear lutenists For those who may be interested these concerts of French baroque lute music are announced: Miguel Yisrael's USA Official Tour 2014 - A The Lute of The Sun King A Concert 1 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Rowan University, New jersey, USA Monday, March 3th of 2014, 8 p.m. Rowan University, Glassboro, New Jersey, USA Concert 2 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Boston, USA Wednesday, March 5th of 2014, 8 p.m. Tickets sold out Concert 3 - Miguel Yisrael, baroque lute recital - Philadelphia Chamber Music Society, Philadelphia, USA Friday March 7th of 2014, 8 p.m. American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia Regards Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [14]http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 2. [15]http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ 3. [16]mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 4. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. x-apple-data-detectors://0/ 2. x-apple-data-detectors://1/ 3. http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 4. x-apple-data-detectors://3/ 5. x-apple-data-detectors://4/ 6. x-apple-data-detectors://5/ 7. x-apple-data-detectors://6/ 8. http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ 9. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 10. http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 11. http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ 12. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. http://rowan.tix.com/Event.asp?Eventb8216 15. http://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/miguel-yisrael-lute/ 16. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Turba in Bulgarian also means a bag.
On 31.01.2014, at 21:43, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:
No one knows.
The only thing known is that the combination of consonants TRB
is absent in all European languages, except for the Slavic ones.
In Ukrainian TORBA means a sack, and TORBYNA means, well, a smaller sack.
RT
On 1/31/2014 4:45 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:
What is the etymology of the word tiorba?
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 12:03 AM
To: David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about
tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a
particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the
archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher octave (ie
non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your
stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different names
for the same instrument('The terms arciliuto and tiorba are
high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any of the
tablature sources
MH
__
From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does not
fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of
square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms
high-degree interchangeable.
Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there
is
no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the
absence
is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer
styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition.
dt
__
From: jean-michel Catherinot [1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
To: R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de; lute
[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn
Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider
that
most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be
this
is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that
tuning
is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for
arciliuto
and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide:
ambitus
and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said,
obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others
it
seems, I'm trying to list them), and the concerti from Harrach
collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of
the
solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto
with
two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from
the
Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the
Royal
Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for
arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at
Rohrau.
Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while
renaming
the picture untitled tuorbe in archiluth, he corrects a mistake
he
has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives
quite
clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two
tunings for archiluth in G and A.
Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our subject,
but...): at first 2 points, I don't know any tablature evidence of
the
use of vieil ton after ca1640. If this type of lute would be used,
it's
very strange that there is no written music for it (not a note).
The
only strange book of Delair gives the impression that the tuning
could
be not re-entrant: but it's a quite basic book, which only gives
solution for chords, not to
