[LUTE] Robert Tailour's Sacred Hymns
Dear all, I urgently need a modern edition of Robert Tailour's Sacred Hymns (1615), and I know that one has been made as part of a University of London dissertation: Christopher Martin Thomas: `Sacred Hymns' by Robert Tailour: A Critical Study and Transcription Since the University library won't send it to me, does anybody here have a scanned copy? Or can somebody put me in touch with Christopher Martin Thomas? Thanks for your help! Sam -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Robert Tailour's Sacred Hymns
Problem solved, thanks to Jean-Marie Poirier! On 30 January 2014 13:58, Sam Chapman [1]manchap...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, I urgently need a modern edition of Robert Tailour's Sacred Hymns (1615), and I know that one has been made as part of a University of London dissertation: Christopher Martin Thomas: `Sacred Hymns' by Robert Tailour: A Critical Study and Transcription Since the University library won't send it to me, does anybody here have a scanned copy? Or can somebody put me in touch with Christopher Martin Thomas? Thanks for your help! Sam -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fine Knacks text trouble
Thanks so much to Matteo and Howard (and those who replied off list) - my singer is very grateful! Sam On 25 July 2013 22:32, Matteo Turri [1]matteo.o.tu...@gmail.com wrote: This is a paraphrase made by David Hill in 2009 (of all the books of Dowland) and posted on [1][2]johndowland.co.uk, but no more available. Let me know if you want to a have a copy. Fine knacks for ladies, cheape choise brave and new, Good penniworths but mony cannot move, I keepe a faier but for the faier to view, A begger may bee liberall of loue, Though all my wares be trash, the hart is true. Great gifts are guiles and looke for gifts againe, My trifles come, as treasures from my minde, It is a precious Iewell to bee plaine, Sometimes in shell th' orienst36 pearles we finde, Of others take a sheafe, of mee a graine. Within this packe pinnes points laces gloves, And divers toies fitting a country faier, But my37 hart, where duety serves and loves, Turtles and twins, courts brood, a heavenly paier, Happy the hart that thinks of no removes. I (a `pedlar'), have fine small goods for ladies: cheap, rare, exciting and new. They are good value for money, though money alone does not motivate me. I hold back my finest goods for only the fairest to see, for a `beggar' such as I can easily afford to be generous in dispensing his love. Even though all my goods-in-trade are really worthless trash, my heart is true and constant. Those great gifts (such as wealth) are deceptive, and you should look for other qualities, for, in my case, even my most trivial cheap `goods' are, in fact, `treasures' that come from my mind (i.e. wit). It is a rare and valuable thing to appear plain and simple, as I do, for sometimes we find the bright, shining pearl inside the coarse shell (of the oyster). My quality of `stock' (wit and charm) is such that, whereas you may take a whole `sheaf' of others, you38 need only to take a `grain' in weight of me! Though here, in my pedlar's bundle, I carry a stock of pins, aiglets39, laces and gloves, and various trivial small goods suitable for a humble country fair, my heart (because I serve both 40duty and love equally) carries constancy, as is embodied by the turtle doves and the famous twins41 , the offspring of Zeus (who also represent duty and love) - truly a heavenly pair. Happy is the heart that thinks of no higher state42 (than one who serves with such constancy). 36 Orient meant bright and shining in the 17th century: We have spoken of the cause of orient colours in birds... (Bacon - Natural History 1607); ...He offers to each weary traveller/ Orient liquor in a crystal glass. (Milton - Paradise Lost 1667). `Orienst', as here, may simply be a misprint for `orient'. Diana Poulton asserted that Orienst is a good Elizabethan word, the superlative of orient.. (John Dowland, p. 267, 1982), though I have not been able to confirm this.The word is not used anywhere in Shakespeare. 37 The original printed copies give: `But my hart...', not `in my hart', as is given in all modern printed editions (following E.H. Fellowes). `My' can easily be sung to the two notes as Dowland probably intended without inserting an extra word. The poet is saying that his heart is constant, like the turtles and twins, not that they are ` in his heart'. 38 A grain was traditionally the smallest unit of measured weight, based upon a grain of wheat. 39 Pointed metal end-tags for laces. 40 Noted for mating for life, and displaying constant affection. 41 Castor and Pollux, the sons of Zeus and Leda (`courts brood' - Zeus seduced Leda in the form of a swan). The key element of the twins' myth, as far as this song is concerned, relates to the filial love and constancy demonstrated by Pollux when Castor was mortally wounded - Pollux was given the choice of elevation to Olympus, or of giving half his immortality to his twin, the latter of which he chose. Zeus placed Castor and Pollux in the heavens as the constellation Gemini - `a heavenly pair' 42 `Removes' means an elevation of status at this date - see also no. 15 `White as lillies' On 25 July 2013 21:12, Sam Chapman [2][3]manchap...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I've been asked by a singer to explain the meaning of a couple of lines from Fine Knacks for Ladies. Frankly I've never understood them either
[LUTE] Fine Knacks text trouble
Hi all, I've been asked by a singer to explain the meaning of a couple of lines from Fine Knacks for Ladies. Frankly I've never understood them either, have any of you? She writes: I've been struggling with a verse from Fine Knacks for Ladies, but I'm stuck. Maybe you could help me. It is the following: But my heart wherein duty serves and loves, Turtles and twins, court's brood, a heavenly pair. I understand the first row, but not the second one. The words are all right, but how does it fit in the poem? And what is the link to the previous one? Is there an allusion to something I don't (but should) know about? Can anyone help us out? All the best, Sam -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute for Sturt
Dear Alan, According to Robert Spencer's article in New Grove: Sturt's seven extant lute solos were written for a ten-course lute in aEUR~old' tuning with the lowest course lowered to B a(TM) A for two of the pieces. Fret material (and strings for that matter) would have been gut. We can't know for sure the exact size and pitch to which Sturt's instrument would have been tuned - this is arguably less crucial in any case, since lutes in all manner of different sizes survive from the period, and would no doubt have been tuned accordingly. If there was ever such a thing as concert pitch at that time in England, Bruce Haynes has suggested that it might have been about a tone lower than modern pitch. Since Sturt was employed at court and was involved in masque entertainments, one might assume that he sometimes played at this pitch. Assuming he thought of his lute in G, this corresponds to a string length of about 66cm. Assuming (again) that he had 8 or possibly 9 frets tied on the neck, one can then work out the body size (roughly). Or one can examine surviving instruments with this string length. Lot's of assumptions I'm afraid - I wouldn't get too bogged down in the dogma! Good luck! Sam On 28 February 2013 21:17, Alan Sturt [1]alanst...@gmail.com wrote: --f46d0408395de054f104d6ce93f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 A A A A I am interested to know what kind of lute would have been played by John Sturt in England (1610-1625) - see attached. A A A A I am a guitar player and would like to get involved with the lute - and I would like to play John Sturt's music on an instrument he would have used. I have not yet proved that he is part of my family tree but Sturt is an uncommon name - even in England. A A A A I would like to know string number, body size, fret material and any other details that would help define the instrument. A A A A A Thanks in advance A A A A Alan Sturt --f46d0408395de054f104d6ce93f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A A A A I am interested to know what kind of lute would have been played by John Sturt in England (1610-1625) - see attached.divA A A A I am a guitar player and would like to get involved with the lute - and I would like to play John Sturt#39;s music on an instrument he would have used. I have not yet proved that he is part of my family tree but Sturt is an uncommon name - even in England./div divA A A A I would like to know string number, body size, fret material and any other details that would help define the instrument./divdivA A A A A Thanks in advance A A A A Alan Sturt/div --f46d0408395de054f104d6ce93f3-- -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:alanst...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Damping overspun strings.
strings sustains too long, compared with gut strings. Thus it seems strange that I've never seen anyone damp overspun strings with foam rubber. Is is easy to control the amount of damping by using dampers of different sizes, or by sliding dampers farther or closer to the bridge. Strings damped this way don't sound like gut, but for some pieces I find them a significant improvement. If you're lucky enough to have yellow foam rubber instead of pink, the dampers will match the soundboard rather well. Alternatively, there are also opportune times, notably at the end of pieces, when you can damp a string with your thumb to good effect. To get on or off this list see list information at [1][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.christopherwilke.com/ 3. mailto:wa...@physics.utexas.edu 4. mailto:wa...@physics.utexas.edu 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Damping overspun strings.
Dear Howard et al, Isn't cutting a note short articulating by definition, regardless of what one does with all the other notes? Articulation isn't necessarily deliberate - it can be an involuntary consequence of what you call choppy playing, or it can be part of a carefully-planned performance (though the former is probably easier to justify historically). I don't think you've done justice to the first rule I mentioned in my post. Most authors write about holding down the fingers for as long as possible, that is, sustaining the notes for as long as possible. This is not the same as avoiding stopping notes prematurely. Whether the rule relates to establishing good technique or creating a certain kind of sound world (or both) is up for debate. If we see it as refering to an aesthetic preference and take it literally then yes, it is evidence against stopping notes for whatever purpose. I have great respect for Paul O'Dette's playing and I have nothing against articulation per se. However, much of what we take for granted has absolutely no historical precedent. When articulated playing is regarded as a period performance practice technique and historically informed, whereas legato is called totally modern, I take issue. As far as I know, Mace is the only author to describe shortening notes (not specifically bass notes) on the lute. He considers this effect an ornament (along with Piano/Forte and Pauses, among other things). He writes it will seem to speak the word tut - perhaps we should use this ornament as often as we would say the word tut in a sentence? On several occasions Mace refers to his dissatisfaction with the long bass strings on the theorbo and their snarling together. Tellingly, he does NOT suggest articulating the bass notes here as a solution. Instead he suggests playing the basses softer, though admits that this is not an ideal solution. He seems to regard this problem as intrinsic to the nature of the instrument. In other places, Mace praises playing which is smooth and clean. On several occasions he describes a kind of over-legato effect: Thus holding of your letters stopt, all the while, will give a very fine sound, or gingle beyond any other way of play. Other than the tut Mace never mentions anything about what we today call articulation, or indeed musical phrasing. Since he writes about virtually everything else, I think this is significant. Personally, I feel that many performers today overarticulate, and this can have the effect of introducing unpleasant accents and (moreover) reducing the volume/resonance of the instrument. The lute, especially when strung in gut, can be seen as a self-articulating instrument - why exaggerate this characteristic? I anticipate your reply! Sam On 21 February 2013 20:13, howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Feb 21, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Sam Chapman [2]manchap...@gmail.com wrote: There is far more evidence for a legato way of playing. One of the first rules we learn on the lute is to hold down the left hand fingers until they are needed for another note - doesn't this indicate a desire for sustaining the resonance of the instrument, rather than cutting it short (i.e. articulating). Cutting a note short amounts to articulating only if it's a contrast to other notes. If all the notes are short, it's just choppy playing, and deliberately shortening a note is pointless if that note is surrounded by notes that are inadvertently shortened. So evidence of a preference for not inadvertently stopping notes prematurely through poor technique 1) is not evidence against preventing a bass note from ringing beyond its written value, and 2) is not evidence against stopping stopping notes for expressive purposes. This doesn't settle the question of whether Weiss (for example) would have been perfectly satisfied with how his basses sounded without damping them. O'Dette is a master at controlling the ends of notes, and it's the reason he makes contrapuntal voice-leading dizzyingly obvious: a note that comes after silence is emphasized. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute iconography on the web
Very interesting picture. Yes, I think I would agree with David, unless the painting has been poorly restored at some point. In any case, the 6th course is certainly a unison. Clearly they had excellent strings back then... On 2 February 2013 15:39, Arthur Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net wrote: Marin has been mentioned: Too bad that Mary Rasmussen is gone. She would have accomplished much, as one can see from her start. (See Carlone for an extended list iof sites.) http://www.lutevoice.com/luteiconography/Page%201.html http://www.klassiskgitar.net/imagesmain.html http://www.musico.it/Mariagrazia_Carlone/iconografia%20musicale.htm Martin, were you asking about Cavalcanti or about Chilesotti? My computer crashed, but I saved everything except my eMail files. - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:29 AM Subject: [LUTE] lute iconography on the web Hi All, Can someone remind me of the best sources for lute pictures on the web? At the moment I'm particularly interested in stripey lutes with ribs of different colours - is the lighter colour nearly always the edge rib, or is that usually the darker colour? And is the capping strip the same colour as the edge rib, or the other colour? Thanks in advance, Martin www.luteshop.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
-- Forwarded message -- From: Sam Chapman [1]manchap...@gmail.com Date: 2 December 2012 00:38 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Markus Lutz [2]mar...@gmlutz.de About string holes: I generally use Stoppani plain gut basses at high tension (c. 3.5kg) on all my lutes - sometimes I cut the string down to size to get it through the hole. Even reducing the width of the string by half puts it in no danger of breaking when tuned up to whatever bass note it should be at. The cut portion of the string passes through the hole and in no way affects the vibrating length of the string. I'm very happy with the sound and don't find it any duller than that the loaded strings I've tried. All the best, Sam On 30 November 2012 12:12, Markus Lutz [3]mar...@gmlutz.de wrote: Am 29.11.2012 16:10, schrieb R. Mattes: On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:04:48 +0100, Markus Lutz wrote Hi Shaun, Hi Martyn, unfortunately I cannot say too much on this topic, at least for the 17th century. [...] Another important source, though late, on all topics of life is Kruenitz, Oeconomische Encyclopaedie. Probably it also depends on the encyclopedy of Diderot and on other encyclopedys, for sure at least some things will have been copied. It has 242 volumes and describes many things very detailed. He has big articles on the lute and on strings Kruenitz, Artikel Laute (lute, vol. 66, p. 380ff, 1795) But this is rather late as a source for information on 17th century lute practice (or even for the first half of the 18th century). There have been two changes in lute building during that time: first, the extension of the bass range by adding a second pegbox (swank neck lutes) and then the change to bass rider style lutes during the 18th century (the later could well be a in response to a wider availability of overspun bass strings). Yes, this is pretty late - as I said, an I never claimed anything on the use of overspun strings in the 17th century. And I don't know, when they were used first, but I would guess at least in the end of the 17th and beginning of the 18th century. But anyway these encyclopedies reflect the things that had been there for many years. If you look at the article on lutes you will see that it consist of different sources, some still have the renaissance tuning/stringing in mind and others that describe the baroque lute. In this article Baron is cited quite extensive, and also they used the articles of Luise Gottsched in Gottscheds Handlexicon oder Kurzgefasstes Woerterbuch der schoenen Wissenschaften und freyen Kuenste We cannot at all compare an encyclopedy of that time with our time (or wikipedia). Changes then had been much slower and they are more a summing up and mixing old and new things. But this article says nothing on the first use of overspun strings. BTW: The development of the extended bass range indeed is vice versa at least in Germany. First there had been lutes with bass riders (ca. 1719), afterwards the 13-course lutes had been theorbified (around 1730). Although there had been other theorbified lutes up to the late 17th century, the theorbifying of the baroque lute had been ascribed to Silvius Leopold Weiss, who probably first combined this with a 13-course lute. Best regards Markus -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg [4]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstrasse 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail [6]mar...@gmlutz.de -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 2. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de 3. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de 4. mailto:r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de
[LUTE] Re: Swedish lute songs?
Hi Jan and all, Thanks for these links. The pieces from Buxtehude are extremely interesting - I don't think there is any other written out tablature part for theorbo that is so demanding and shows what a professional player might have played (in this style at least). The other cantata you mentioned Herr wenn ich nur dich habe has a basso continuo part in staff notation labelled theorba, as opposed to an almost identical one labelled organo. Both are fully figured, and I don't think there are significant differences in the bass lines. This is good ammunition to use against those who still say that the theorbo should only play the bass in this kind of music! All the best, Sam On 22 November 2012 11:05, Jan Johansson [1]j...@horseforce.se wrote: Hi therobo b.c. fans, Andreas Schlegel was kind enough to direct me to the correct Buxtehude piece, Fuerchtet euch nicht, where we have both the basso continuo parts and a tiorba part (labeled th) written at the end of the 17th century probably by one of the lute players of the Hofkapelle in Stockholm. It can perhaps be interesting to compare the figured bc with the theorbo implementation. Here it is: [2]http://www2.musik.uu.se/duben/presentationSource1.php?Select_Dnr) 4 Regards /Jan -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:j...@horseforce.se 2. http://www2.musik.uu.se/duben/presentationSource1.php?Select_Dnr)4 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
Dear Lex, I don't think Kapsperger qualifies as an arisocratic amateur since he was (along with Frescobaldi) the highest paid musician at Cardinal Barbarini's court in Rome. Castaldi on the other hand certainly was an aristocratic amateur... While creating a full family tree of lute-type instruments might be unfeasible, it might be interesting to come up with a list of all the different instruments which were refered to as chitarrone historically. I think it would be quite a long list. The theorbo list would be even longer! All the best, Sam On 18 October 2012 10:13, Lex van Sante [1]lvansa...@gmail.com wrote: I agree and BTW Milan and Kapsberger to name but a few also could be categorized as aristocratic amateurs, couldn't they? Op 18 okt 2012, om 10:03 heeft Martyn Hodgson het volgende geschreven: Dear Denys, Thank you for this - I think it well reflects many peoples' views. Indeed, it is remarkable that, even after 36 years, much of what Bob wrote is still widely agreed upon today. Martyn --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Denys Stephens [2]denyssteph...@sky.com wrote: From: Denys Stephens [3]denyssteph...@sky.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone To: 'lute net' [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 20:32 Dear Roman, I fully respect your freedom of speech, but I find it sad to see Robert Spencer referred to in that way. His article was written 36 years ago, and represented a significant contribution to the subject at the time. It's hardly surprising that things have moved on since then, but notwithstanding that, his outstanding contribution to the world of lute music is remembered with gratitude and respect by many. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: [1][5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Roman Turovsky Sent: 17 October 2012 13:56 To: R. Mattes Cc: Monica Hall; Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone Thanks for this! The bottom line is that the Italians had lutes of less than 6 courses in guitar tuning (with whatever names), the bass variety thereof eventually evolved into chitarrone, in the perspicacious opinion of Renato Meucci. I agree with Meucci, as his opinion is intelligently conceived, well-informed, and doesn't sound like Bob Spencer's aristocratic amateurism. RT To get on or off this list see list information at [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmout h.edu 2. [9]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmout h.edu 3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:lvansa...@gmail.com 2. mailto:denyssteph...@sky.com 3. mailto:denyssteph...@sky.com 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute
About coloured/dyed strings - I spoke to a harpist yesterday who told me that coloured strings were sometimes used on renaissance harps to help with orientation (as modern players use them today). In fact, I was thinking about getting a few coloured basses for my theorbo... On 7 October 2012 18:25, howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Oct 7, 2012, at 4:23 AM, JarosAA'aw Lipski [2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: There is also quite a lot of speculation in your answer, So I said at the beginning. however I doubt very much if Mace could be so poetic and enigmatic in the book which was to simplify things. He was defending lute's position amongst instruments so he tried to make explanations as easy as possible. For us it's not easy because we didn't live at that time. IMO he talks about most common things (obviously except his dyphone, but in this case he wanted to show people his invention). I really doubt very much that he would be inclined to make generalization after examining just a one string and immediately wanting to share his discovery with the whole world. In this case the whole book would be of little value for anyone. But I don't thing this is the case. He clearly explained that many kinds of strings were commonly dyed. Then he proceeded to give his opinion on which ones were good, and which he found commonly faulty. This would be quite a normal thing to write in a handbook. Obviously, I'm less inclined to take Mace seriously than you are. A You're writing here about what you would mean if you wrote what Mace wrote. A I'm writing about what an oddball who may have been an inaccurate observer or someone quick to jump to odd conclusions may have meant. A And remember, when he wrote the book he was so deaf he had to put his teeth on a lute to hear any sound from it, so the details of strings' A actual sounds may have been a different memory. A If you're inclined to take everything Mace says as practical and workable, try building his dyphone, and then try playing it. As far as your objections concerning unusual colors are concerned please have a look at the 12c lute's bridge detail of Bilcius painting (2nd half of the 17th c). It shows string colors from bright yellow, orange, till various shades of blue. Where? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuner
The entire case (including battery cover) of the new version is made from very classy brushed aluminium. I've already dropped the tuner a few times and it seems to be pretty bomb proof. best, Sam On 5 October 2012 16:48, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello Francesco Yes the replacement cover is exactly the same. I think the problem is both because the original cover is as you say inherently weak, and EU 9V batteries are perhaps a little larger than some others making it more difficult to close the cover. I hadn't realized that the new ST-122 was made of metal, but I have had three years use out of this one, and as you say, since it is working, it would seem a pity to have to buy a new one just for this cover question. I will carry on with this one, unless there are other arguments for swapping to the new one. Regards Anthony __ De : Francesco Tribioli [2]tribi...@arcetri.astro.it A : 'Anthony Hind' [3]agno3ph...@yahoo.com Envoye le : Vendredi 5 octobre 2012 10h52 Objet : RE: [LUTE] Re: Tuner Hello Anthony, The reason I am writing today, however, is because I had a problem with a slightly fractured battery cover on the ST-122 (this is a part which does get stressed, when ever the battery is changed, and I have had mine for at least a three years). I sent a message about this to Sonic research, and immediately Roger sent me a new cover, which I have just received this morning. I've exactly the same problem with my ST-122 and I was thinking to buy the 122a, which is built in aluminum, just for this. My question: is the replaced cover exactly as the older one? I ask because the locking system of that cover is inherently weak and I think that it might break in a short time too. On the other hand to spend quite a bit of money to replace a perfectly working tuner just for the battery cover seems a little bit silly 8^) Thank in advance for any info you can share Francesco -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:tribi...@arcetri.astro.it 3. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Consort Suggestions Please
Dear Tom, There's a lot of 16th-century consort music for three instruments - a good place to start would be to look in Brown's Instrumental Music Printed Before 1600. You can play along with any of that repertoire on the lute if you make your own intabulations. Of course, you can make relatively free intabulations (as in the Lachrimae), leaving out unplayable voices and possibly adding new things of your own. If you're after something more specific, have a look at Vincenzo Ruffo La Gamba in Basso e Soprano - I could well imagine a lute fitting into the consort in that piece. Good luck! Sam On 9 September 2012 21:34, Edward Mast [1]nedma...@aol.com wrote: Not an answer to your question, but perhaps relevant if playing part music. When I got back to the lute a few years ago, I went to our local recorder society meetings to play ensemble music. What I found is that recorders generally read an octave higher then notated, so that playing the lute on a top or middle line put me an octave lower than the recorders, and thus out of place harmonically. So, I generally ended up on the bottom, or bass line, which is not the most comfortable area on the lute. Also, when playing music with longer not values, the lack of sustain of the lute compared to the recorders bothered me a bit. My solution was to learn to play the recorder. It sounds as if they could loan you an instrument or two to learn, and if you learn the fingering for the alto and tenor you can also play the bass and the soprano. I draw the line at the crumhorn, however! On Sep 9, 2012, at 1:12 PM, [2]t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: I have some friends who have had a recorder ensemble for many years. Formerly 4 players. They lost one of their main players some years ago, and they would like to re-group as a trio with me playing Renaissance lute. They inherited a fine collection of Renaissance and Baroque recorders, in all sizes including Bass, crumhorns, zincs, and even a sakpipa and a cornemuse from the founder of the ensemble. Does anybody have suggestions for composers and / or specific pieces that would fit well with 3 recorders, etc. and lute? Dowland's Lachrimae, perhaps? (I know that's 5 parts - but ... leave one out maybe ... ? ) Thanks in advance, Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music [3]http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 [4]715-682-9362 To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 2. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com 3. http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 4. tel:715-682-9362 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String wear/ technique
Dear David and Gary, Thanks for the tips. I don't think it's a problem with the tension - I have only about 3.5kg on all my fingerboard strings at the moment! I'll check my frets again though - the first fret is quite thick (1.2mm) so that might be causing a hump as Gary points out. I use Kuerschner fret gut which is very tough but quite inflexible, so perhaps that's adding to the problem. In any case, I was planning to lower the action at the nut anyway, so I'll try lowering the nut and putting on thinner frets. If that doesn't work I'll check for fret-mashing. Could be that I'm tying the frets too tight, causing them to stretch out at the bend. I've tried filing down frets in the past but have never got it to work - usually just makes things worse in my experience! All the best, Sam On 1 September 2012 15:04, Gary R. Boye [1]boy...@appstate.edu wrote: Sam, This may be another shot in the dark, but when you tie frets, sometimes there is a small hump in the fret where the flat part bends around to the back of the neck, even if the frets are really tight. A slightly bulging fret at this bend could cause buzzing and it's likely to cause it on the 1st course, closest to where the fret bends. That's one of the reasons nylon frets are so difficult to work with, IMO, as well as the very thick gut frets. If there is a slight gap with the fingerboard where the fret curves around neck, you could have a high point. I've been able to just file it down a bit and make things work--it's that or lose the fret entirely (which costs $$). And sometimes the opposite occurs: the fret gets sort of mashed and stretched out at the bent point. Then you could have a low point and buzzing when fretting . . . Gary -- Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 31 August 2012 23:13, Sam Chapman [2]manchap...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting. I don't have an answer, but I have a problem of my own: when I string my theorbo with gut, the 1st course always becomes untrue rapidly and starts to buzz against the frets, long before I have such problems on the other strings. Even if the string is fine when I put it on, within as little as a few hours it can be more or less unusable whereas I can play the other courses for several weeks or months before such problems develop. The action is normal and though I use very low tension now, I've had the same problem with higher tension strings too. I've tried many makes of string and it's the same with all of them. I'm wondering if there's a problem with the way the neck is set up, or if it's something about the way I pluck that particular string that causes it to become untrue. Or perhaps it's the way I tie the frets (though they're tight and I don't see any obvious problems there)? It's a Jacobsen theorbo, 84cm, about 20 years old. Any ideas? All the best, Sam To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:boy...@appstate.edu 2. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tuner
Yes, I also got the ST-122a some time ago. It's an extremely well-designed and robust piece of kit and in terms of accuracy and functionality I don't think you can beat it for the price. It seems to be virtually the only thing Sonic Research produces, and they clearly pour a huge amount of effort into making it as good as it can be - quite a different story from the plastic Korg tuners that most people seem to use. By programming the tuning of my theorbo and setting the tuner to manual (so that Theorbo Man appears on the display!) I've been able to use it in orchestras even without a contact microphone. I used to have a TLA strobe tuner but had to sell it since, while it was great for keyboard instruments, it couldn't really pick up the sound of the lute properly. The TurboTuner is the opposite: perfect for lutes, but picks up the sound of harpsichords less well (no problem with organs though). The only other criticisms I have is that it can't produce sound and it can't do piano curves, though I have a cheap tuner that can do the former and I rarely need the latter. Also, you have to get used to people asking you what the flashing lights are all about... Buy one! Sam On 3 September 2012 22:50, Edward Mast [1]nedma...@aol.com wrote: When I went to order mine a few moths ago, the ST-122 was indeed out of stock and out of production. But it has been replaced by the ST-122a, a very similar but slightly upgraded version. I'm very happy with it also. On Sep 3, 2012, at 1:14 PM, R. Mattes wrote: On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 09:22:11 -0400, William Brohinsky wrote I have one. I have had it for a few years. For piano tuning, it is not a choice. For just about everything else, it is wonderful. Please correct me if I'm wrong - but isn't this tuner out of stock since _years_? -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg [2]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 2. mailto:r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: fret gut
Dear all, Some time ago I read something about fretting vihuelas, probably Bermudo: as I remember, the best vihuelas can be fretted with the same thickness of gut all the way up the neck. Can somebody quote this source more accurately? Best, Sam On 15 August 2012 11:46, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Stuart, Many people nowadays use a quite large diameter first fret (around 1.00mm or even more on a relatively small [60cm] lute) but, as Martin points out, the best record of actual historic fret sizes is John Dowland (in Varietie) which suggests significantly thinner frets - these allow a lute to be 'set fine' ie minimum distance between string and fingerboard at the higher frets, so easing higher fret fingering. I try to aim for first fret at 0.90mm on this size of instrument but, again as Martin points out, this depends on the set of your particular instrument. So that if the neck has pulled up a bit, or even incorrectly set from the start, you can use almost same diameter frets right up the fingerboard (around 0.70mm) - like a modern 'classical' guitar. But if the neck set is in the same plane as the belly (at the bridge) you may well need graduated frets. As said, I aim for a setting on this size lute which allows from 0.90 (first) down to around 0.50mm (8th fret). Thomas Mace also gives some info (again, hurrah Thos.!): 'with a fine smooth File, cut the Notches to a convenient depth so that all your Strings may lye at an even and equal height, from the Finger-Board, which would be about the thickness of a Half-Crown, or a little more;'. So if you know the thickness of a halfcrown in 1676 you know the distance from the underside of the strings to the fingerboard at the nut he's advocating and hence you may judge the diameter of his ideal first fret. Finally, Martin raises the matter of double v single loop frets: in fact there is no early evidence for the use of single loop frets with the noticeable exception, again, of the all-inclusive Thos Mace who, it should be noted, when it comes down to describing how to tie a fret desribes the usual double loop. You may care to see my paper on this very subject in the forthcoming issue of FoMRHI Quarterly. regards Martyn From: Martin Shepherd [2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: fret gut To: Lute List [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 14 August, 2012, 21:14 Hi Stuart, It depends on the height of the nut. The first fret has to be as high as it can be without buzzing (in normal play, and this is surprisingly high), and so on up the neck. This may involve reducing fret sizes as one goes up the neck, it may not. Historically Dowland suggested using a fourth course string (about .75mm?) for the first fret, but he was talking about double frets. Best wishes, Martin 14/08/2012 21:01, WALSH STUART wrote: Is there a set of standard gauges of fret gut for a typical G lute, 60cms string length? And, if so, what are they? Stuart -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Hi Joshua, I have a 7-course lute and I usually tune the 7th course to D. However, I keep an extra 7th course in the case, and if I'm playing lots of music where I need the 7th course in F I simply change it over. It takes about 5 minutes to change the course, and if you use plain gut strings they tune up and keep their tuning (more or less) in a matter of minutes. I'm fussy about string tensions, so I wouldn't attempt to retune the same strings. Good luck with your lute playing - I think a 7-course instrument is a great place to start! Sam On 2 May 2012 17:39, Joshua Burkholder burkholder.jos...@gmail.com wrote: Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used)? Otherwise I have to re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Why no active historical lutes?
Dear Ned, Yes, the Messiah is more or less unmodified I think, though it is certainly not in active use - as far as I know, all instruments in the Hill collection at the Ashmolean were donated under the strict condition that they are never to be played! Also, it is pretty hard to convincingly de-modify a historical bowed instrument, since most of these instruments have had their soundboards considerably thinned out! Any other offers for Strads in active use in original condition? All the best, Sam On 21 April 2012 23:57, Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com wrote: I think one or two may have survived un-modified (perhaps the Messiah?). Also, Yo Yo Ma 'de-modified' one of his strad cellos (I believe I've read this), reconfiguring it as a Baroque instrument. (How much of a shame the modifications are depends upon who you're talking with, of course). -Ned On Apr 21, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Sam Chapman wrote: Just for the record, I don't think any of those Stradivarius violins are in anything like their original condition. Which is a real shame. All the best, Sam On 20 April 2012 20:23, Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu wrote: According to Wikipedia, there are many Strativarius violins in active use today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments But I never hear of anyone playing a historical lute routinely. In fact, it seems rare for anyone to even handle one. Is this because the thin soundboard becomes fragile with age? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Why no active historical lutes?
Just for the record, I don't think any of those Stradivarius violins are in anything like their original condition. Which is a real shame. All the best, Sam On 20 April 2012 20:23, Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu wrote: According to Wikipedia, there are many Strativarius violins in active use today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments But I never hear of anyone playing a historical lute routinely. In fact, it seems rare for anyone to even handle one. Is this because the thin soundboard becomes fragile with age? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute?
/ construction (again we need to be very careful: there are TWO 6 course lutes survived which tells us not much about the variety of 6 course instruments available to XVI century players) 5. materials (I'd dare say that if it's nicely playable and have a good sound and looks beautiful, well, materials must have been selected the right way...) I don't care about the maker's reputation. If it's an investment, OK. If it's a music instrument, then the maker is not the first point on my list either. Very exciting conversation: I look forward to read other opinions :-) Thanks! Luca William Samson on 07/04/12 15.25 wrote: I haven't really got much to add to the subject line. I've been chatting with Rob about this and various points have emerged I'd be interested in hearing what priorities you might put on the various characteristics of a lute in deciding if it's 'good' or otherwise. The kinds of things that have come up are (in no particular order): * playability (action, string spacing etc) * sound (which I can't easily define) * authenticity of design/construction * materials used * quality of craftsmanship * reputation of maker Of course these are rather broad headings and might easily be refined, clarified or broken down. Thoughts, please? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][2][3][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. [3][4][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[5][10]l...@manassero.net 2. [6][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. [7][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[13]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr 2. mailto:[14]l...@manassero.net 3. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:[17]l...@manassero.net 6. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:r.turov...@verizon.net 2. mailto:eugene.kure...@gmail.com 3. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr 4. mailto:l...@manassero.net 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr 7. mailto:l...@manassero.net 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. mailto:l...@manassero.net 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr 14. mailto:l...@manassero.net 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. mailto:l...@manassero.net 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Tree edition Goess Manuscript CD ROM question
Hi John, The CD-Rom just contains an index, not images of all the pages. I think there are some photos of the castle too... All the best, Sam On 7 March 2012 22:07, John Lenti johnle...@hotmail.com wrote: Dear All, Has anyone purchased the Tree Edition publication The Goess Manuscripts: Music Manuscripts in Tablature from Ebenthal Castle, Klangenfurth, Carinthia, Austria. Music for Baroque Lute, Baroque Guitar, Theorbo, Viol. Index.? It's described in the OMI catalogue as Index, with CD ROM of the entire contents of the Goess Manuscripts, compiled by Douglas Alton Smith, Tim Crawford, Francois Pierre Goy, Claude Chauvel, David Ledbetter Gordon Dodd. So, it includes a CD ROM, but the guy at OMI wasn't sure if this meant that the CD ROM included the entire contents of the Goess Mss, that is to say, images of every page of all of the books, which would be great, or if the CD ROM was an index itself, which would be far less interesting to me. He thought the latter more likely. Maybe one of you guys has it. Maybe one of you guys is one of the editors. Anyone? Thanks, John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: RCH cases
Dear Stuart, I bought an RCH case for my baroque guitar last year and had quite a lot of trouble with it. Firstly they made it too short, despite getting a clear plan of the guitar from the maker. The head of my guitar is quite square but the case was rounded, meaning that although I could force the guitar into the case, it was not really safe for the instrument and I wasn't happy about using it. Secondly, the lid of the case wouldn't stay open on its own. Thirdly, the handle was in the wrong place, causing the case to be very poorly balanced. Standing up holding the case, the neck end would be sticking up into the air and the body end almost touching the ground. My guitar maker complained to RCH about the case and they replaced it for free (he was in Italy and was able to pick up the new case from them directly). Though the new case has none of the old problems, it lacks the secure clasp that the old one had (the old case had four normal clasps, plus a stronger one which could be closed with a padlock), and as a result it can't be closed to tightly and I'm not sure if it will be as waterproof. So, all in all I have the impression that these cases are rather carelessly made. That said, they are certainly solid, though perhaps a little heavier than Kingham cases. And they are MUCH cheaper! So, if you need a strong case for a student lute it might be worth taking the risk. All the best, Sam On 16 February 2012 17:42, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I have had an RCH case for my 7c lute for the past ten years or so. It's fine. If I had a criticism it is that the handle is a bit near to the bottom end and the case tends to dangle head down when I'm carrying it. Easily fixed, if I could be bothered. Bill From: Roland Hayes rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org To: mcluckie stuart stuart.mcluc...@blueyonder.co.uk; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 16 February 2012, 16:26 Subject: [LUTE] Re: RCH cases I have one for my archlute from Paolo Busato and the case is fine. r -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of mcluckie stuart Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:58 AM To: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] RCH cases Can anyone advise me on buying an RCH case? I need to get mobile with my student lute and am willing to accept that it won't be as good as a Kingham case. Please email me off-list, if you think it's more appropriate. Cheers - Stuart McLuckie -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Music for a While
I just happened to have it on my computer...I've sent it to you in a seperate mail. Hope it goes down well with the students! Sam On 20 February 2012 16:59, be...@interlog.com wrote: Hi, folks - would anyone have a pdf of original music for Purcell's Music for a While that they could kindly send me, or direct me towards? I'm doing a lecture for high school students - yikes - and I want to show 'em some original basso continuo scores. There's nothing on the 'net that I've been able to find except modern scores. Thanks very much - Benjamin Stein - http://benjaminstein.ca/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Besard's Nova Testudo
Dear all, Does anybody have a reliable translation from the Latin of Besard's text describing the Nova Testudo in his Novus Partus. This text doesn't seem to appear in the Isagoge. Translations into any language accepted! All the best, Sam -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
I have the same problem on vista but I'd always assumed that was just a problem with my computer. I tend to use it more for producing notes than picking up notes that I play into it. On 5 February 2012 19:16, Craig Robert Pierpont [1]crpierp...@yahoo.com wrote: Has anybody gotten this to work on Windows 7? It seems to run fine except that I can't get it to recognize any sound input. Craig Craig R. Pierpont Another Era Lutherie [2]www.anotherera.com --- On Sat, 2/4/12, Sam Chapman [3]manchap...@gmail.com wrote: From: Sam Chapman [4]manchap...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning software? To: David van Ooijen [5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: lutelist Net [6]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, February 4, 2012, 4:19 PM WinTemper is pretty good: [1][1][7]http://wintemper.com/ Best, Sam On 29 January 2012 17:41, David van Ooijen [2][2][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen [3][3][9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4][10]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [5][4][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. [5][12]http://wintemper.com/ 2. mailto:[6][13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:[7][14]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. [8][15]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 5. [9][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [17]http://wintemper.com/ 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[18]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[19]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. [20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. [21]http://wintemper.com/ 6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[22]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[23]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [24]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 9. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:crpierp...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.anotherera.com/ 3. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 4. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 5. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 6. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://wintemper.com/ 8. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://wintemper.com/ 13. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 14. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 15. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. http://wintemper.com/ 18. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 19. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 21. http://wintemper.com/ 22. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 23. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 24. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
WinTemper is pretty good: [1]http://wintemper.com/ Best, Sam On 29 January 2012 17:41, David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. http://wintemper.com/ 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute humidifiers
If you go for a room humidifier, make sure you get one with a hygrostat built in, or buy a hygrostat separately. This will allow you to keep the humidity at a constant level, avoiding too much moisture in the air which can walls go mouldy (but will please your houseplants). Most humidifiers, if left on all the time, produce a higher level of humidity in a normal-size room than is necessary. I keep mine at 50%. I find that the sound of my instruments deteriorates if the humidity is much higher than that. Also, if you use gut strings then they will stay in tune better and last much longer if you avoid high levels of humidity. Unfortunately, most modern concert halls don't take this into account... Best, Sam On 7 March 2011 23:09, [1]dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: Does anyone have any recommendations for a humidifier for lute. Would appreciate any advice - thanks. regulating the humidity of your home might be the best option; all your instruments, your furniture, pets, people will all benefit. Mildew is the enemy, and the smaller the case the more likely it is to go mildew. Talk to music stores which deal with serious students of violin, cello, and piano, all of which have comercial solutions for humidification. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo strings
Hi Caius, I absolutely agree with David - there is nothing better than a gut strung theorbo and it's much easier to keep under control than a gut strung lute. Also, unless you have an enormous instrument, the highest strings will not be as thin as they get on a lute, so there will be less chance of them breaking unexpectedly or wearing out during a concert. Are you still using wound strings for the low basses? These should be the first to go! I liked the old Sofracob double-twist gut for the basses, but since you can't get it now Gamut basses might be a good option. On the fingerboard I normally use Aquila half-rectified for strings 1-4, Aquila Venice for string 5 and Stoppani high-twist for string 6 (or a wound string for later repertoire). But I'm still experimenting with other strings, especially for the trebles. The problem with Nylon is that it sounds sweet but lacks the overtones and brightness of gut, so it doesn't project so well (as David points out). I don't have much experience with Carbon, but I imagine the thinness of the higher strings could make them unpleasant to play and the sound lacks depth and quality. The flexibility of Nylgut always gives me the impression that the tension of the string is lower than it actually is - after playing on real gut for a couple of years, I don't feel that nylgut is a very good substitute anymore. Perhaps New Nylgut will be more convincing? Looking forward to playing together in the summer... Sam On 19 December 2010 10:01, hera caius [1]caiush2...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello lutenists, As I played theorbo really a lot this months, I started to wonder about the sound of the strings. In this moment I use some Nylon and carbon in the high registers and some copper on the basses and it sounds really good but the basses sounds too long and the tension of the treble strings is too low. Can anyone give me some ideas what kind of strings I can try (with sound closer to gut), and where can I buy? Thank you. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:caiush2...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute strings
For Aquila I use [1]stringking.net. They are reliable, don't charge a fortune for postage, and offer a discount for large orders... On 17 December 2010 19:15, nigelsolomon [2]nigelsolo...@btinternet.com wrote: Could anyone tell where the best (cheapest!) place to order lute strings from is in the UK? I need mainly aquila and Pyramid. Thanks Nigel To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. http://stringking.net/ 2. mailto:nigelsolo...@btinternet.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Galilei Fuga a l'unisono
Dear Lutenists, Has anyone successfully performed Galilei's Fuga a l'unisono from Il Fronimo? The piece starts well, but if you play the canon as written you end up with some pretty bizarre harmonies towards the middle/end of the piece. If anyone has worked out where the errors are or come up with a version that works, please let me know! Thanks, Sam -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tying two strings together (in process of changing from 407Hz to 392)?
__ De : Guy Smith [2]guy_m_sm...@comcast.net A : Anthony Hind [3]agno3ph...@yahoo.com EnvoyA(c) le : Lun 22 novembre 2010, 18h 33min 07s Objet : RE: [LUTE] Re: tying two strings of different thickness together? I agree. The grapevine knot works best when the sizes are roughly equal. Fortunately, I've never had to extend a loaded string. ___ From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[4]agno3ph...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:58 AM To: Guy Smith Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: tying two strings of different thickness together? Thanks Guy One of the two ropes could be a loaded one, and so probably not supple enough to participate in a double knot. The sheet bend knot might be all I can manage, but for other strings I will try your suggestion. Regards Anthony PS I see there animated knot examples, that make things fairly foolproof. ___ De : Guy Smith [5]guy_m_sm...@comcast.net A : [6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Anthony Hind [7]agno3ph...@yahoo.com EnvoyA(c) le : Lun 22 novembre 2010, 17h 18min 57s Objet : RE: [LUTE] Re: tying two strings of different thickness together? I use a grapevine knot. I learned that in my rock-climbing days as a bombproof way to tie into a rope. Probably overkill, but if it can hold a twenty foot leader fall, it should be able to handle a lute string:-) FWIW, the traditional knot for joining two lengths of fishing line is a blood knot, which would be another possibility. I tend to avoid square knots. They can easily be turned into a cats paw knot, which isn't secure at all. Here's a good reference for all sorts of knots: [1][8]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm Guy -Original Message- From: [2][9]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3][10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:05 AM To: [4][11]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Anthony Hind Subject: [LUTE] Re: tying two strings of different thickness together? I use a reef knot - but secured with a drop of super glue --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Anthony Hind [5][12]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind [6][13]agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] tying two strings of different thickness together? To: [7][14]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 15:28 Dear All I may need to lengthen a string which does not quite reach the peg, but goes well beyond the nut. I would like to attach it to a slightly thinner short piece of gut to reach the peg in question. I remember that Stephen Gottlieb had done that for several strings on my lute; but I can no longer remember the type of knot he used. Can anyone advise me, or tell me of a page where this knot is described. Regards Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][8][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [17]http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm 2. mailto:[18]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:[19]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[20]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:[21]agno3ph...@yahoo.com 6. mailto:[22]agno3ph...@yahoo.com 7. mailto:[23]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. [24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:guy_m_sm...@comcast.net 3. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 4. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 5. mailto:guy_m_sm...@comcast.net 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 8. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_KnotsIndex.htm 9. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 13. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 14. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. http://www.layhands.com/Knots
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo treatises
Dear Shaun, I was just looking for these as well. As far as I know there are no translations, but Bartolomi, Fleury and Grenerin are more or less understandable from their music examples alone (helped by a very basic knowledge of French). Are you looking for Campion's 1716 treatise (in which he talks about harmony and accompaniment in general) or the Addition au traite d'accompaniment from 1730 (which is much larger, and contains more specific info about theorbo, lute and guitar)? If the latter, there is an article by Kevin Mason: Franc,ois Campions Secret of Accompaniment for the Theorbo, Guitar and Lute. This is in Journal of LSA, Vol XIV (1981). Mason sums up Campion's main points. You can find a modern edition of Grenerin here: [1]http://luthlibrairie.free.fr/?Baroque:Fran%26ccedil%3Baise I think there might be some mistakes in it, but I haven't been able to get hold of the facsimile to check it. In LSA Journal Vol XIX (1986) you can find a review of the facsimile edition, again by Kevin Mason, which contains some interesting information. Good luck, and let me know if you find anything else! Sam 2010/10/30 Shaun Ng [2]shaunk...@gmail.com Dear All, Does anyone happen to know if there are English translations of the following treatises and if they are available (either original or translation) online? Angelo Michele Bartolotti: Table pour apprendre facilement `a toucher le theorbe sur la basse-continue (Paris, 1669) Franc,ois Campion: Traite d'accompagnement et de composition selon la regle des octaves de musique, op.2 (Paris, 1716/R) Henry Grenerin: Livre de theorbe contenant plusieurs pieces sur differents tons, avec une nouvelle methode tres facile pour apprendre `a jouer sur la partie les basses continues et toutes sortes dairs Thanks very much in advance. Shaun -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. http://luthlibrairie.free.fr/?Baroque:Fran%26ccedil%3Baise 2. mailto:shaunk...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb under
Hi Ned, This is a sticky topic and players tend to deal with it in different ways. If the kind of music you're playing is made up almost entirely of runs but contains the odd 3 voice chord, it's probably best to set up your hand/arm/lute position to prioritise the p-i runs, i.e. keep the lute and right arm as horizontal as possible. With the lute and hand like this, your thumb will probably most naturally pass inside your middle finger. However, if what you're playing contains a lot of 3 or 4 note chords, I find that a slightly less horizontal position allows me to get a clearer sound with all the fingers. In this case my thumb might pass either inside or outside my middle finger, or possibly, as you said, move opposite or even collide with it. I think it's generally better to avoid letting fingers collide with each other, but you should be guided by the sound and comfort of the hands, rather than a principle. It will also depend on the length of your fingers and thumb. The main thing is to find a good position for the lute, arm and hand, then let the fingers move naturally. There is no point trying to force the thumb or a finger to move in a direction it simply doesn't want to go in! I wonder if that helps at all? Good luck! Sam On 1 November 2010 15:37, Edward Mast [1]nedma...@aol.com wrote: When playing a single line with t-i, it is clear that the thumb finishes its stroke under the first finger. But not so clear to me is the position of the thumb relative to the second finger when two note chords are interspersed with the single line. Does the thumb finish its stroke under the second finger, or in line with - perhaps touching - the end of the first finger? Relevant here, I guess, is the position of the thumb and second finger at the start of the two note chord. Are they in opposition, or is the second finger stretched out beyond the thumb, so that it strikes its string at a point farther from the bridge than the thumb strikes its string? (For lutenists the phrase rule of thumb takes on a new meaning!). Thanks, Ned To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: beginner help required for thumb under technique
Dear Morgan, Franz, and Ned, I'm glad I could be of some help! If you don't have a teacher it can sometimes take years to find solutions to relatively simple problems, so by passing on things that Hoppy told me I hope to be able to speed up the process a bit! The guitar videos are indeed supposed to be thumb out! As far as I know, baroque guitar was never played thumb-in. But it's true, my thumb doesn't extend as much as it probably should. I find it quite hard to keep my little finger on the soundboard, keep the thumb out AND make a nice sound. These videos were made a few years ago though, so maybe I'd manage it better now...In any case, when I play chords with the thumb and fingers, I don't think you ever see the fingers passing over the thumb (which for me more or less defines thumb-in technique). All the best, Sam On 20 October 2010 17:30, Edward Mast [1]nedma...@aol.com wrote: Having spent some time reading and rereading - and trying - the suggestions made in his response to Morgan, I want to thank Sam for such a clear and useful analysis of RH technique. For over a year, I've been working at moving from thumb over to thumb under in the right hand (without a teacher's guidance) and Sam's observations will be helpful. His last sentence was encouraging: . . .even with a good teacher it can take years to develop healthy technical habits. I say encouraging, for I was beginning to view my efforts as hopelessly inept. Inept, yes, but perhaps not hopeless! Thanks, Sam, and your improvisations in Morley's consort lessons are a delight. Ned On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:52 AM, mc41mc wrote: Dear Sam, I didn't watch the theorbo vids, but the baroque guitar is thumb-in, isn't it? Sure looks that way. It also looks like your thumb and index occupy some of the same space on occasion, or at least they would if they were playing on the same course. I suppose in that case you would pull your thumb back a bit, and have a bit more thumb-in/under and less thumb above (above because it's not really out/over or in/under, it's pretty much directly above). For playing chords (without rolling) it seems to help to pull the thumb back a little also. I'm still away from my lute but have been experimenting with a parlor guitar that's around here. Unnatural may be ok in this circumstance, but after decades of guitar playing and trying hard to play naturally, pulling my thumb way from my index finger and pointing it more toward the soundboard feels odd. When I watch lute players the plucking hand often looks very comfortable, except sometimes the thumb position looks tiring. I'm just trying to get off to a reasonably good start and not develop any bad habits, and get a nice tone. When I watch Nigel North, he seems to be under, over, and above depending on what he is playing. But other players, not so much. Thanks again for the advice, morgan __ From: Sam Chapman [2]manchap...@gmail.com To: mc41mc [3]mc4...@yahoo.com Cc: [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 5:43:07 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] beginner help required for thumb under technique Hi Morgan, Glad you found it helpful! It's sometimes a good idea to kind of flatten the thumb, i.e. turn it downwards towards the lute. Classical guitarists tend to have a habit of sort of plucking up from the string, and this won't sound good. If what you're doing feels a bit unnatural that might be a good sign - shows that you're not just repeating your old guitar habits! Using the thumb/index is a bit like using a pick, but a really big squashy sort of pick that covers both strings of the course! As for the videos, I'm glad you liked them, but don't copy the technique I use on the baroque guitar and theorbo ones (that's supposed to be thumb-out!). If you're really stuck, you could make your own YouTube video, post it to the list and ask for comments! All the best, Sam On 19 October 2010 03:28, mc41mc [1][5]mc4...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Sam, Thank you so much for the detailed response. I need to re-read it and I am away from my lute, but already it is very helpful. I think I need to use more of the tip of my thumb (i.e. point it more toward the soundboard) and less of the side (pointing toward the head stock), and contact the second string of the course sooner. Orienting my thumb this way, more perpendicluar to the strings, feels a little unatural to me so I was hesitant to do it. Also, I think I was a little
[LUTE] Re: beginner help required for thumb under technique
Hi Morgan, Glad you found it helpful! It's sometimes a good idea to kind of flatten the thumb, i.e. turn it downwards towards the lute. Classical guitarists tend to have a habit of sort of plucking up from the string, and this won't sound good. If what you're doing feels a bit unnatural that might be a good sign - shows that you're not just repeating your old guitar habits! Using the thumb/index is a bit like using a pick, but a really big squashy sort of pick that covers both strings of the course! As for the videos, I'm glad you liked them, but don't copy the technique I use on the baroque guitar and theorbo ones (that's supposed to be thumb-out!). If you're really stuck, you could make your own YouTube video, post it to the list and ask for comments! All the best, Sam On 19 October 2010 03:28, mc41mc [1]mc4...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Sam, Thank you so much for the detailed response. I need to re-read it and I am away from my lute, but already it is very helpful. I think I need to use more of the tip of my thumb (i.e. point it more toward the soundboard) and less of the side (pointing toward the head stock), and contact the second string of the course sooner. Orienting my thumb this way, more perpendicluar to the strings, feels a little unatural to me so I was hesitant to do it. Also, I think I was a little bit mislead by how much thumb-index scale passages resemble using a pick, and so assumed that the thumb could plant on a single string and then push through to the second string, similar to a pick. I enjoyed the youtube clip you gave. It was hard to see your hands in detail, but I could get a good sense of how you hold the lute. I got a pretty good look at your hands in some of your baroque guitar clips which were very nice. Thanks again, morgan __ From: Sam Chapman [2]manchap...@gmail.com To: m cornwall [3]mc4...@yahoo.com; [4]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 12:13:18 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] beginner help required for thumb under technique Dear Morgan, Here are a few tips about RH technique on the lute (most of which I picked up during my lessons with Hopkinson Smith...): Firstly, I think most players find it much harder to get a good tone from the thumb than from the fingers - it's something that even the best players have to continually work on, so don't be disheartened! If the sound is harsh it may simply be because the the skin on your thumb is rough. Just as modern guitarists are obsessive about the shape/smoothness of their nails, lutenists soon realise how much difference the state of the fingertips makes to the sound produced. You may consider avoiding doing lots of manual work (gardening, working with tools, chopping wood etc), wearing gloves in cold weather, evading doing the washing up, using hand creams, etc...during periods when you plan to play the lute a lot. If the strings are buzzing against each other or the frets, it might be worth checking that your lute is set up really well. If the string spacing is very narrow, or the tension is very low this might cause buzzing. Also, if the frets are old or not quite the right guage you might get similar problems. The best thing would be to get this checked out by an experienced player or maker, otherwise you might waste a lot of time! As for the stroke itself, you might consider the following: 1. At the start of the stroke, try to have contact with both strings of the course. You can practice this by planting the thumb on the course and feeling both strings under your thumb, without pushing them towards each other. 2. The most important thing about getting a good sound with the thumb is to allow the arm to move freely. At the beginning you might want to take your little finger off the soundboard, and make thumb strokes where you simply put the thumb on the course (as above) then allow the weight of the arm to bring the thumb through the strings from the elbow (keeping the wrist, hand, and thumb more or less as a unit). Do this with big exaggerated movements at the beginning, until the arm feels very free. You can also simply strum through all the courses like this. This can be very hard for guitarists, since the elbow is more or less locked in place most of the time on the classical guitar. 3. Once the arm is free and moveable you can put your little finger back on the soundboard and do the same kind of thing, obviously making less exaggerated movements. But generous arm movements are generally very good (you only need to make smaller movements when you start playing very fast passages). Your little finger and wrist need to be quite flexible, otherwise the arm can't move. 4
[LUTE] Re: beginner help required for thumb under technique
position (and lute position!). However much you change what your fingers do, if you hold the lute at a similar angle to how you would hold a guitar, and your right hand approaches it at a similar angle, you will never develop a good thumb-in technique. Your right hand needs to approach the instrument at a much less acute angle, ideally so that the right arm/wrist passes more or less over the bridge. You can achieve this by either dropping the right shoulder as much as possible (popular, but not advised!) or by finding a way to raise the lute so that your arm aproaches it naturally at a less acute angle. Some players use a footstool for the right foot, others sit on a very low chair, some suspend the lute in mid air with a strap...I personally use a little cushion on my right leg to raise the lute. The smaller the instrument, the bigger the problem! The lute should also be held at a less steep angle than a modern guitar. When you get these geometrical problems sorted out, the chances are that your right hand will fall more or less naturally in the correct place and you won't have problems avoiding your thumb and fingers clashing. It shouldn't be an effort to avoid them bumping into each other - the position of the body and the instrument should simply make it more or less impossible (unless you have a very long thumb or very short fingers!). I hope this helps a bit. As you can see, this is a very large topic and even with a good teacher it can take years to develop healthy technical habits. Good luck! All the best, Sam P.S. You can judge me thumb technique for yourself here: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M On 11 October 2010 15:50, m cornwall [2]mc4...@yahoo.com wrote: Howdy, I am now the proud owner of a lovely Barber and Harris 7 course student lute. I have played the guitar for years, but the lute is new to me. I have been studying lute technique as I best can from home, using books, the internet and some DVDs I have. I have yet to find an available teacher anywhere near me. I have a number of things to sort out, but the most pressing at the moment is my thumb-under technique. I can get a nice tone from my fingers, but the tone produced by my thumb is harsh. I suspect the courses are either bumping into each other or the frets, but it is also just the way the thumb engages the strings. So I am looking for advice on the proper thumb stroke. Most of the videos I have, such Ronn McFarlane's Mel Bay video, show the hands from front on. I have yet to find a video shot from above and behind the player which might be helpful. (just found this ukulele thumb under video: [1][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4) My nails are short. I believe that my hand position is reasonably close to where it should be (i.e. it's not in the classical guitar position). Obviously the lute requires a much lighter thumb stroke than used on the guitar, but even when I use a light strike the sound produced by my thumb is not at all as pleasant as the sound when using my fingers. Does the thumb stroke primarily come from the main thumb joint? When playing scales the arm seems to come into use as well. But what about the last joint on the thumb? Players preference? Does the thumb begin it's stroke only touching 1 string of a course, similar to a guitar, or does it rest on both strings, more like the fingers? Is the general direction of the tip of the thumb down, perpendicular to the strings, or somewhat angled, down and away from the neck? Is the portion of the thumb that touches the strings the side, mainly the side with a bit of the curve of the tip, mostly on the curve of the tip (where the nail ends), or something else? When playing chords, my thumb is much happier when rolling chords. When striking all the courses simultaneously, my thumb is more likely to run out of space and collide with my index finger. Thank you in advance for any advice, morgan -- References 1. [4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4 To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpaOTGrG2M 2. mailto:mc4...@yahoo.com 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bab_tC20K4 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thomas Campion
Thanks to Ron and Howard for your help. The question is becoming more complicated: as far as I can work out, Campion published a Traite d'accompagnement (1716) and an Addition au traite d'accompagnement (1730). I think that the detailed descriptions of accompanying on theorbo, lute and guitar are in the latter. According to Nigel North's bibliography in Continuo Playing the Campion in question was Francois, but in the more recent Fuzeau Methodes Traites Basse Continue both works are attributed to Thomas (hence the whoops). So, in addition to helping me find a translation, can anyone tell me which Campion we're talking about?! Thanks again for your suggestions, Sam On 28 September 2010 17:24, howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:12 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: There is a _Traite d'accompagnement_ by one Francois Campion (1716), and there is _The Art of Descant, or Composing Musick in Parts_ by Thomas Campion published by Playford (1674). My guess is that you are seeking the former, which is (I think) available from Minkoff. The Minkoff is a facsimile with no English translation. But there's very little text, and most of it is pretty obvious if you have any knowledge of continuo coming in. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Thomas Campion
Hi all, Does anyone know where I can get an English (or at least German) translation of Thomas Campion's continuo treatise, preferably with his descriptions of chords written out in staff notation or tablature? Thanks! Sam - Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Translate Italiano pioverin?
Garbled version of poverino (poor one)? On 8 September 2010 06:38, howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: Small rain? Drizzle? To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] RIP Sofracob fretgut
Dear lutelist, Sofracob used to make great fretgut: strong, consistant (I even used it as a string in several emergencies!), available in long lengths, and cheap. Now that it's no longer available, does anyone know a good alternative? I've tried Aquila but the gut was hopelessly soft and wore out or broke very quickly. Old strings can work, but sometimes they are worn down too much or weakened, and there are always a few guages I don't have... Any tips? Thanks a lot, Sam -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Bermudo translation?
Does anybody know if there is a translation of Bermudo's treatise into English or German? Or at least bits of it? Thanks! Sam -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bermudo translation?
Dear Thomas, Thanks very much! I found it in the LSA journal, 1995/6. All the best, Sam - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall lauten...@lautenist.de To: Sam Chapman manchap...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Bermudo translation? There has been one in one of the journals of the lute society. Take a look at their website Thomas Sam Chapman schrieb: Does anybody know if there is a translation of Bermudo's treatise into English or German? Or at least bits of it? Thanks! Sam -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Ferrabosco Miserere
Dear Lutenists, Has anyone ever been able to locate a Miserere plainsong (or any other cantus firmus for that matter) in Ferrabosco's Miserere (Dd.2.11, ff.22v-23)? I've looked for it for hours, but to no avail... Thanks for your help! Sam -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Another lute Masters concert...
Dear Lutenists, I will give my Master's concert at the Schola Cantorum Basiliensis (Kleiner Saal), Basel on Monday 7th June, 7.30pm. Any lutenists in the area are very welcome to come! The programme consists of a selection of solos, duets, and consort pieces by Ferrabosco, Collard, Danyel, Allison etc. from the Matthew Holmes lute manuscripts, plus one song from Danyel's printed book. Also performing will be my mixed consort The Queen's Revels and the lutenist Ryosuke Sakamoto. 7-course lutes by Thompson and Jacobsen, strung up in all gut! Send me an email directly for more details! All the best, Sam -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: John Donne
There are 2 exquisite settings of An Hymn to God the Father (Willst thou forgive that sin...), one by Hilton (perhaps commissioned by Donne himself?) and another by Pelham Humfrey. Nigel North and Paul Hillier have recorded the Hilton along with some other Donne settings on The Rags of Time. Sam 2009/1/24 David Tayler [1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net The Expiration springs to mind, Ferrabosco. dt At 01:59 PM 6/16/2008, you wrote: Dear Wisdom, What lute and voice settings are there of poems by John Donne (a long-time favourite poet of mine)? I'm also interested in settings for viols and voice or voices. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Morley consort lessons
Dear Jean-Marie, this is fantastic, thanks! I haven't printed yet, but I'm sure the scores will be readable... all the best, Sam On 13/01/2009, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Sam; I have uploaded a zip file with photos of the complete Treble Viol Book (Morley, 1611) done after my photocopies. I think they are big enough to be used for reading or printing. You can get the file by clicking there : http://le.luth.free.fr/Morley.htm Then, just right click on the link and save as a zip file on your hard disk. Hope it helps ! Best wishes, Jean-Marie === 13-01-2009 00:17:22 === Does anyone have a facsimile copy of the treble viol part for the Morley consort lessons? It's missing from EEBO and various microfilm collections...any leads would be much appreciated! Also, Ian Harwood will be giving a lecture on the mixed consort at the Schola Cantorum in Basel this Thursday at 6pm. As part of the lecture, my group Microcosmos will be making their debut performance. On the following Friday and Saturday Ian will be coaching the group and listeners are very welcome! -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 13-01-2009 -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Morley consort lessons
Does anyone have a facsimile copy of the treble viol part for the Morley consort lessons? It's missing from EEBO and various microfilm collections...any leads would be much appreciated! Also, Ian Harwood will be giving a lecture on the mixed consort at the Schola Cantorum in Basel this Thursday at 6pm. As part of the lecture, my group Microcosmos will be making their debut performance. On the following Friday and Saturday Ian will be coaching the group and listeners are very welcome! -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Morley consort lessons
Thanks Diego, this is an interesting resource. The consort pieces seem to be more like arrangements than exact transcriptions of the original versions though. All the best, Sam 2009/1/13 Diego Cantalupi [1]cantal...@tin.it Hi Sam, perhaps you already know that here you can find a modern edition: [2]http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Hendricks/ Ciao, Diego -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:cantal...@tin.it 2. http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Hendricks/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Kapsberger Canarios
Here's a tip: Farewell to Stromness is great on theorbo! 2008/10/28 Steve Ramey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear Collected Wisdom, I just heard a fellow playing a baroque guitar solo on the radio. It was something called Arpegiatt and Canarios, by Kapsberger. The Canarios sounded rather similar to the modern piano piece, Farewell to Stromness, which we may know as a guitar piece. I've thought for a long time it might be interesting on the lute. Anybody know anything about this one? TIA, Steve -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Tune the tuna - Part II
Double sided sticky tape is also great for holding down wooden tastini (even permanent tastini or on the body frets). I normally use little bits of fret gut and normal sticky tape though - I've often left them on for a month or so and never had any problems with sticky marks. The guage of gut for the tastino should usually be the same (or possibly .05mm larger) as used for the fret it's behind. Cutting such small pieces of gut sometimes flattens the ends which can cause buzzing and roughness under your fingers when playing - I use a cable cutting tool (available in all good bike shops!). This cuts the fret simultaneously from all sides, so it doesn't get flattened. If your lute is permanently in meantone (or any other temperament) you can get a lute maker to reset the body frets. This is quick and easily done (though it may not be wise!). Sam 2008/10/28 Omer katzir [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So, few days ego (i think it was Sunday, not what day it is today...) I received the Super Duper Sonic Tuner as some of you recommended. A great tuner, but I really need tips to use it, I'm still used to my old needle tuner, I always used them and now all the flashing lights confusing me. I read the instruction manual, it is great becuase now I know how to change temperaments, cents, save, delete, backlight etc. But I'm not really sure how to tune, the manual fails to explain it (at least for me) in nice and clear way. For now i don't care about flats and sharps, I just want it to tune, when I'll get used to it, I'll think some more. But how, in the name of the great Henry the VIII, I know if my string is tuned? So any one with this nice tuner (and it really nice) please help me. The second part of my tuning trilogy goes to the temperament. I have decided 1/6 Comma for my first test. according to LSA i need Tastino which i guess supposed to be an extra fret (had little time to read) and i don't have one for now, I only have the frets already on my lute, i can try other temperament that not requires it, like the Mersenne's Spinet #1, Kepler #2 but from what i see, they are... different from what i want to try. so again, suggestions will be gladly excepted. Other problem i have, are the 10th-12th frets, they are on the lute body, how should i handle that problem? My lute is a 7c, 61cm and it is now tuned to Equal Temperament, I have 9 frets on the neck and three more on the body. Thank you again and again Omer Katzir To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Broken consort
Dear Martyn, Thanks for the useful information and sources for cittern tunings. You did indeed explain what kind of flute was used in your first message - I was actually asking that question to Martin Shepherd! Your response was nevertheless interesting! As for the Morley pieces - the only one which seems imply a flute with a different tessituta is Joyne Hands. This goes up to a high G (none of the other pieces go above a D in the flute). I think the other Morley pieces are in exactly the same range as the rest of the pieces in the publication (Allison etc...). Thanks to everyone else for their comments too! Sam 2008/10/5 Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: A few sources that come to mind include: 1. LS Booklet by Gill (1977)page 7: Praetorius small english cittern string stop c. 35cm tuned f bflat' d g or f a' d g Also same tuning for 'gittern' an octave lower as below: evidence of 'gittern' in Payford's 1652 publication as suggesting mid/late 17thC citterns tuned as four course guitars and name gittern applied to them 2. NRI current historical notes on cittern strings extract In 1602 Meuler was able to produce an even stronger wire, which allowed the small cittern to tune up to g and some English players tuned it to gittern or ocatave- lute tuning Segerman then goes onto to speak about Payford's later instrument using the same intervals similar to outlined in 1 above. 3. Ward 'Sprightly and Cheerful Music' 1981 tunings page 11, 12. Ward's extended paper contains a number of references to cittern/gittern (eg Sir Peter Leycester's remarks we...do call a gitterne, which is only a treble Psittyrne.. and similar such as Rowbotham's 1569 publication) I hope you didn't read to earlier email that I was advocating such an instrument in this repertoire! My own knowledge of the cittern is limited and if you've anything to add, or correct, on cittern sizes, tunings, pitches etc for the 'Rroken Consort' I'd be delighted to hear it. MH --- On Sun, 5/10/08, Doc Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Doc Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Broken consort To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 10:14 AM On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: More recently the gittern tuning (with highest string on the first course at g') seems to have found favour Which tuning is this? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Broken consort
Thanks for all the advice on Flutes and other things. I'll definitely look up Bob Marvin's article. Ian also let me have a peek at a draft version of Chapter 13...I agree with you Stuart - it's going to be a fantastic book and just the kind of incredibly thorough study this repertoire needs. Thanks for pointing out the inadequacy of the term Broken Consort Ron. Confusing as it is, I decided to use the term when starting this discussion because it's still the one most people are familiar with, and I wanted to hear as many peoples comments about this repertoire as possible! All the best, Sam 2008/10/6 Ron Andrico [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear Stewart All: I thought the term 'Broken Consort' had long ago been abandoned in favor of 'Consort of Six' or something less confusing. Best wishes, Ron Andrico [1]www.mignarda.com Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 18:45:30 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Broken consort Dear Jean-Marie, A couple of weeks ago, I had the pleasure of reading through Chapter 13 on the Holmes manuscripts. It is extremely interesting, with lots of new information, and mistakes by others in the past corrected. There are still a few more chapters to go. Ian is very thorough, so progress is slow, despite the time he devotes to the book. Yes, he had to stop work for a while, because he had been working too hard, and he needed to take a break. However, he is now back at his computer, working on the final chapters. We shall have to wait a little longer, I'm afraid, but it will be worth it. From what I have read so far, I can safely say that it will be an excellent book. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 October 2008 14:41 To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Broken consort Puzzling, indeed ! I really look forward to the publication of Ian Harwood's book on the subject. Last time I went over to Norwich, in June this year, David van Edwards told me the book was well under way. I contacted Ian by email after that and he told me the same thing, but also that he had been delayed because he had overworked himself and the doctors had recommended him to sort of calm down... Alas, still no sign of this strongly expected book ! Does anyone on the list have fresher news than these about it ? All the best, Jean-Marie To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. [2]Learn Now -- References 1. http://www.mignarda.com/ 2. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_getmore_092008 -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Broken consort
Hi Martin, Which pieces did you play? Were they from the Morley publication, the Holmes manuscripts, or something else? Did you use flute or recorder? It wasn't quite clear from your Email if the flute/recorder played at the written pitch or an octave higher (I assume it was the former if you were demonstrating Ian's ideas). As I understood it, even with instruments playing at high pitch, a bass flute in the low pitch is still needed to produce all the lowest notes found in the repertoire at their written pitch. So do you mean that Ian has another even lower pitched bass flute? Or did you simply avoid the few pieces which go below low G on the flute (in which case a bass flute at the same pitch as the other instruments is sufficient). I'm slightly concerned about the flute being more or less inaudible when a bass instrument is played at written pitch. How was the balance in your group? Lots of complicated questions, sorry! All the best, Sam 2008/10/4 Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Sam, These are interesting questions. At the recent Lute Society weekend Ian Harwood managed to assemble a consort at the high pitch - a minor third above modern pitch. I played my A lute tuned up a semitone, strung all in gut except for the top string which was nylgut. For a gut string I think you would need a slightly shorter string length (mine is 53.5cm). The treble part was played on a treble violin, the size of which made holding it quite tricky! The consort sounded good and the advantage of the high pitch solution is that the flute/recorder parts fit in the correct place in the texture. Ian does however have a bass flute which allows a low pitch consort to achieve the same thing. In any case I think it depends which pieces we're talking about as to whether the octave displacement of the flute causes a problem or not. Ian's dual-pitch hypothesis was originally based on the sizes of surviving viols, but he also has theories about the bandora which seem to make a lot of sense. I can't remember how it all relates to the sizes of surviving citterns but we used a small cittern for the high-pitch consort and it sounded fine. I note with interest that the designation treble lute and a high pitch of about a minor third above modern fits nicely with the notion that the mean lute was about a tone below modern pitch (a fourth lower than the high pitch) - arguments for which I have made elsewhere, e.g., in the brief essay on Dowland's lutes which can be found at www.johndowland.co.uk Best wishes, Martin Sam Chapman wrote: Dear Lute list, I'm in the process of organizing a consort in Basel to play, among other things, pieces from the Morley consort lessons. Having read various articles on the subject and listened to recordings of the music, I'm left with some difficult questions: What pitch should the music be played at? What kind of flute should be used and should the part be played as written or up an octave? Why the designation for treble lute when clearly a G instrument is intended? These questions and others have been already been tackled by Ian Harwood in his several articles, but I would be very interested to hear other people's thoughts and opinions (and justifications). If you have experience performing this repertoire, how did you solve these problems? Many thanks, Sam -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Broken consort
Dear Martyn, Thanks for your interesting ideas. From what you wrote then, there seems to be some justifiaction for performing the consort music at A-440hz (treating the A lute as an instrument in G). Most of the traverso players I know possess and play instruments only in 415hz or 440hz, so this would make life easier at least. Does anyone know what pitch existing english flutes and recorders where normally tuned to? Is there evidence for instruments at 392hz, and if so why are these instruments so seldom copied? The strange viol bowhold in Upton's famous painting can be seen in many other pictures, so I think it can be considered as a playing technique rather than an artist's ignorance. See the viol players here for example: http://silviart.altervista.org/blog/?p=20 I've asked players to try it out, and the sound produced is very clear and articulated and actually ideal for consort playing! Legend has it that Hopkinson Smith once asked Jordi Savall to try out this technique (but Jordi refused). I'll have a look again at the Morley pieces compared to those by other composers and see if I agree with your ideas... All the best, Sam 2008/10/4 Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear Martin, What is the early evidence from England that 'treble' lutes were generally considered such very small lutes (ie c 48/50cm string stop). Are they not nowadays more generally thought as being simply lutes a tone (or so) above the ordinary common or 'mean' lute as, for example, often required for duets a tone apart found in various sources both continental as well as English? This would suggest a pitch only a tone higher than general 'lute' pitch rather than a fourth higher. On flutes: many years ago I played these pieces with a transverse bass flute (John Cousen) and recall it was pretty inaudible. It also looked considerably larger than the traverso in the best historical depiction of this sort of ensemble (Scenes from the life of Sir Henry Unton, Unkown artist, c. 1596). In this painting the lute and cittern and violin also look to me like ordinary sized instruments (lute, say, around 55 - 63cm string stop), tho' the bass viol looks smaller than might be expected, but then such a quiet consort would have little need of a powerful full sized consort bass. Interestingly, the viol is shown being played with overhand bow with the hand on the treble side of the instrument - wether this is artistic ignorance or attempting to depict the overarm way of playing shown in some continental paintings I cannot say. Praetorius also speaks about the ambiguity of the pitch of flutes and that even he was fooled for a time (see Beck Editorial Note p. 40 and translation). In short, I think the weight of evidence is that an ordinary sized traverso of the period was used for most of these consorts. The exception is for Morley's arrangements of his own lighter pieces which seem to be notated at pitch; the other pieces are mostly by other composers particularly associated with this form (eg Allison) and presumably from manuscripts copied for the Morley print. regards Martyn --- On Sat, 4/10/08, Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Broken consort To: Sam Chapman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 10:54 AM Hi Sam, These are interesting questions. At the recent Lute Society weekend Ian Harwood managed to assemble a consort at the high pitch - a minor third above modern pitch. I played my A lute tuned up a semitone, strung all in gut except for the top string which was nylgut. For a gut string I think you would need a slightly shorter string length (mine is 53.5cm). The treble part was played on a treble violin, the size of which made holding it quite tricky! The consort sounded good and the advantage of the high pitch solution is that the flute/recorder parts fit in the correct place in the texture. Ian does however have a bass flute which allows a low pitch consort to achieve the same thing. In any case I think it depends which pieces we're talking about as to whether the octave displacement of the flute causes a problem or not. Ian's dual-pitch hypothesis was originally based on the sizes of surviving viols, but he also has theories about the bandora which seem to make a lot of sense. I can't remember how it all relates to the sizes of surviving citterns but we used a small cittern for the high-pitch consort and it sounded fine. I note with interest that the designation treble lute and a high pitch of about a minor third above modern fits nicely with the notion that the mean lute was about a tone below modern pitch (a fourth lower than the high pitch) - arguments for which I have made elsewhere, e.g., in the brief essay on Dowland's lutes which can be found at www.johndowland.co.uk Best wishes, Martin
[LUTE] Re: Temperament wondering...
Ah...I see what you mean Andrew! In reply to Rainer, Martin and Martyn: perhaps I'm being incredibly naive, but I've always managed to tune octaves and unisons on my theorbo with no beating, whether or not I set the frets equal or to some variety of meantone. Of course I don't count, for example, g-sharp to a-flat as an octave or unison. I simply stick on tastino if I need a different note, or use alternate fingerings if I'm playing continuo. Do you really suggest that one should tune, for example, the 6th course so that it beats with the 1st and 13th when using temperaments other than equal? Perhaps we misunderstood each other? All the best, Sam 2008/10/4 Andrew Gibbs [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You're right - it's not a circular process if the fretting system has been worked out properly. As I said, I've been using David van Ooijen's instructions for tuning in 1/6 comma and it's a straight- forward process. But I was referring to the historical instructions found on the LSA Fret Placement Chart, which (no disrespect to the Ancients) haven't been passed down to us 100% accurately. So there's some to-ing and fro-ing between frets and open strings to figure out that Gerle, for instance, was aiming at approx. 1/6 comma. Obviously, having established this, I don't need to repeat the process - I can just tune straight to 1/6 comma... On 3 Oct 2008, at 23:39, Sam Chapman wrote: In any tempered fretting system that's been worked out properly you need to first set the frets, then tune the strings to each other in perfect octaves or unisons, since these intervals must be pure in all schemes. If this doesn't work and your lute sounds out of tune, then the fret placement has been wrongly calculated. There should be no need for a circular process (unless you're interested in inventing a new temperament by trial and error). -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Temperament wondering...
In any tempered fretting system that's been worked out properly you need to first set the frets, then tune the strings to each other in perfect octaves or unisons, since these intervals must be pure in all schemes. If this doesn't work and your lute sounds out of tune, then the fret placement has been wrongly calculated. There should be no need for a circular process (unless you're interested in inventing a new temperament by trial and error). 2008/10/3 Andrew Gibbs [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The LSA file works on my mac - but I found those historical instructions for placing frets weren't really that useful - I think some are inaccurate (Dowland's doesn't seem to make much sense). And there's no instructions on how to tune the open strings - so if you don't know what temperament you're aiming for, it makes the process a bit circular - tweak the frets, tweak the open strings, tweak the frets etc My basic understanding is that 16th c lute players would have used some kind of meantone - ranging from 1/4 to 1/8 - but of course wouldn't have used that terminology as the fine maths weren't worked out until later when meantone was on the point of becoming obsolete. This is my basic understanding - I'm sure someone on this list will know better/more... Andrew On 3 Oct 2008, at 07:22, Omer katzir wrote: Thanks andrew, but i have a problem with LSA file, i see every thing as 0, beside the english... i used both office 2008 and Neoofice, and it showed me the same thing. might be becuase I'm a mac user... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Broken consort
Dear Lute list, I'm in the process of organizing a consort in Basel to play, among other things, pieces from the Morley consort lessons. Having read various articles on the subject and listened to recordings of the music, I'm left with some difficult questions: What pitch should the music be played at? What kind of flute should be used and should the part be played as written or up an octave? Why the designation for treble lute when clearly a G instrument is intended? These questions and others have been already been tackled by Ian Harwood in his several articles, but I would be very interested to hear other people's thoughts and opinions (and justifications). If you have experience performing this repertoire, how did you solve these problems? Many thanks, Sam -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
