[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony, Thanks for this. Your response makes obvious, though, that I didn't make myself sufficiently clear, as you address issues that I didn't and wouldn't argue about. Not only later German baroque lutenists were indebted to French lutenist's experimentations, the whole of Europe was. Not only French clavecenists were deeply influenced by French lutenists, musicians all over Europe took over the breaking and rhythmical shifting of voices as a style (see Daniel Vetter, Musicalische Kirch- und Hauss-Ergötzlichkeit (as late as 1709-1713) http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Vetter-Daniel.htm). Okay, perhaps except Italy 8) Not sure if mental figures like evolution or progression from one composer to another are instrumental in explaining their respective music and styles. IMO Lully's music in his way is as much speaking as is Dufaut's in his. Not sure if Gallot's music is appropriately characterized in saying that it is announcing the harmonic vocabulary of de Visée. Perhaps it's just me, but I for one cannot see the use of generic systematizations on this field. What I actually tried to deal with is the depiction of baroque lute music (French in particular) and its history in modern accounts and recordings. It is by no means my opinion that this elusive music has become almost too difficult to interpret, even for the simplest pieces (end of quote). Rather, that is the approach that I tried to criticize. One more response. I have difficulties in understanding what pure (as opposed to what?) melodic structure might be. Yet you seem to consider melodic structure as an opposite of musical gesture (but it is the eloquent gesture, elegance, ). IMO, however, melodic structure is the very means of achieving gestures and expression in French baroque lute music, as it is based both on verse rhythm (speaking) and on dance. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Anthony Hind Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. März 2012 10:52 An: Mathias Rösel; Arto Wikla Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Perhaps, Matthias, we can at least agree that later German baroque lutenists, were indebted to the French lutenist's experimentation with accords nouveaux, lute types, and le style luthé which so influenced even the French harpsichordists. Their in depth research of the lute's sonorities makes their pieces studies in sound texture (as much as in melodic structure), tightly associated with this instrument, and difficult to transpose. Those who are less sensitive to texture may indeed prefer the more overtly organised melodic structure of a Weiss, or a de Visée. However, there is a range in French music, from the almost speaking style (as Arto says of Dufaut), to a more Lullian melodic style (spiked with dissonance): from the disolving harmonic patterns of Mouton, through Gallot (announcing the harmonic vocabulary of de Visée), to de Visée himself, with his independently structured bass lines underpinning a strongly articulated melodic superstructure. For some, Weiss might be the pinnacle of this progression; yet both Weiss, and de Visée, proclaim their debt and admiration for Gallot: de Visée quotes Psychée in his tombeaux du Vieux Gallot, while Weiss' reworks L'Amant Malheureux, as a resounding eulogy. As I said in a recent SFL luth journal, in a concert in Paris, Benjamin Narvey underlined this evolution, and while his strong projection and singing style undoubtedly favoured the cantabile of these two great masters*, de Visée and Weiss, his performance of the more elusive Prelude of Mouton (through his masterful phrasing, ornamentation and rhythm), achieved a fluidity approaching the gestures of a baroque dancer. Nothing seemed static, even silences suggested movement: musical flights abruptly suspended, but continued in the mind of the listener. Dissolving harmonic patterns melted into each other, the lute constantly ringing as new notes were struck, the resonance of the lute itself seems the primary focus of the composition. Each lutenist has their own sensitivity and history which makes one composer work better for them than another. I understand you fascination, Mathias, with pure melodic structure, to which I am not immune; but it is the eloquent gesture, elegance, fluidity and poise of French Baroque to which I feel most drawn. However, you are quite right that with the loss of the musical tradition this elusive music has become almost too difficult to interpret, even for the simplest pieces, so rather than attempting Gallot's Psyché, I am at present struggling with de Visée's slightly more melodically approachable Tombeau du Vieux Gallot inspired by this piece. Unfortunately, even for this, it is not sufficient to have a historically suitable lute and excellent stringing with good clarity and sustain, to succeed
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Perhaps, Matthias, we can at least agree that later German baroque lutenists, were indebted to the French lutenist's experimentation with accords nouveaux, lute types, and le style luthé which so influenced even the French harpsichordists. Their in depth research of the lute's sonorities makes their pieces studies in sound texture (as much as in melodic structure), tightly associated with this instrument, and difficult to transpose. Those who are less sensitive to texture may indeed prefer the more overtly organised melodic structure of a Weiss, or a de Visée. However, there is a range in French music, from the almost speaking style (as Arto says of Dufaut), to a more Lullian melodic style (spiked with dissonance): from the disolving harmonic patterns of Mouton, through Gallot (announcing the harmonic vocabulary of de Visée), to de Visée himself, with his independently structured bass lines underpinning a strongly articulated melodic superstructure. For some, Weiss might be the pinnacle of this progression; yet both Weiss, and de Visée, proclaim their debt and admiration for Gallot: de Visée quotes Psychée in his tombeaux du Vieux Gallot, while Weiss' reworks L'Amant Malheureux, as a resounding eulogy. As I said in a recent SFL luth journal, in a concert in Paris, Benjamin Narvey underlined this evolution, and while his strong projection and singing style undoubtedly favoured the cantabile of these two great masters*, de Visée and Weiss, his performance of the more elusive Prelude of Mouton (through his masterful phrasing, ornamentation and rhythm), achieved a fluidity approaching the gestures of a baroque dancer. Nothing seemed static, even silences suggested movement: musical flights abruptly suspended, but continued in the mind of the listener. Dissolving harmonic patterns melted into each other, the lute constantly ringing as new notes were struck, the resonance of the lute itself seems the primary focus of the composition. Each lutenist has their own sensitivity and history which makes one composer work better for them than another. I understand you fascination, Mathias, with pure melodic structure, to which I am not immune; but it is the eloquent gesture, elegance, fluidity and poise of French Baroque to which I feel most drawn. However, you are quite right that with the loss of the musical tradition this elusive music has become almost too difficult to interpret, even for the simplest pieces, so rather than attempting Gallot's Psyché, I am at present struggling with de Visée's slightly more melodically approachable Tombeau du Vieux Gallot inspired by this piece. Unfortunately, even for this, it is not sufficient to have a historically suitable lute and excellent stringing with good clarity and sustain, to succeed. Regards Anthony *PS This is exactly the repertoire (Weiss and de Visée)that Benjamin will be performing in Paris this coming Sunday. - Mail original - De : Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de À : baroque-lute mailing-list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc : Envoyé le : Dimanche 18 mars 2012 0h07 Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Arto, Thank you for your balanced views! I agree in general that there's no better or worse in matters of taste. I hasten to add, though, that taste is a matter of education, a matter of discerning the ways. When I look back, I must admit that some things went wrong in the very beginning of my lute schooling. Wrong is a strong word, I know, but that's what it looks like from my perspective of today. Giesbert's method does not contain French baroque music, offering but late German baroque. Satoh's method has one piece by Gallot, but via the famous arrangement by Weiss! The method by Michel Serdoura / Yisrael has been the best so far IMO in that it offers very well written articles by several authors and a wide range of music. That is the desirable width of mind that Dagobert Bruger had already reached in 1928. No mention, though, of other types of the instrument. The baroque lute is a number of different lutes, rather, comprising 10c through 13c lutes, including different types of theorboed and non-theorboed lutes, not to speak of different tunings. You mentioned traits like uneven and unpredictable passages, varying the lengths of phrases, unexpected harmonies in French baroque lute music. I share these impressions (don't particularly like them, though), but I am suspicious that they have been provoked by circulating recordings which helped to create this kind of common approach towards this music. I appreciate more the ways these composers e.g. deal with their melodies. Thank you anyway for Monsieur Dufaut's courante! Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Arto Wikla Gesendet: Samstag, 17. März 2012 19:15 An: Anthony Hind Cc: Mathias Rösel; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony, Thanks for this. Your response makes obvious, though, that I didn't make myself sufficiently clear, as you address issues that I didn't and wouldn't argue about. Not only later German baroque lutenists were indebted to French lutenist's experimentations, the whole of Europe was. Not only French clavecenists were deeply influenced by French lutenists, musicians all over Europe took over the breaking and rhythmical shifting of voices as a style (see Daniel Vetter, Musicalische Kirch- und Hauss-Ergötzlichkeit (as late as 1709-1713) http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Vetter-Daniel.htm). Okay, perhaps except Italy 8) Not sure if mental figures like evolution or progression from one composer to another are instrumental in explaining their respective music and styles. IMO Lully's music in his way is as much speaking as is Dufaut's in his. Not sure if Gallot's music is appropriately characterized in saying that it is announcing the harmonic vocabulary of de Visée. Perhaps it's just me, but I for one cannot see the use of generic systematizations on this field. What I actually tried to deal with is the depiction of baroque lute music (French in particular) and its history in modern accounts and recordings. It is by no means my opinion that this elusive music has become almost too difficult to interpret, even for the simplest pieces (end of quote). Rather, that is the approach that I tried to criticize. One more response. I have difficulties in understanding what pure (as opposed to what?) melodic structure might be. Yet you seem to consider melodic structure as an opposite of musical gesture (but it is the eloquent gesture, elegance, ). IMO, however, melodic structure is the very means of achieving gestures and expression in French baroque lute music, as it is based both on verse rhythm (speaking) and on dance. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Anthony Hind Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. März 2012 10:52 An: Mathias Rösel; Arto Wikla Cc: baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Perhaps, Matthias, we can at least agree that later German baroque lutenists, were indebted to the French lutenist's experimentation with accords nouveaux, lute types, and le style luthé which so influenced even the French harpsichordists. Their in depth research of the lute's sonorities makes their pieces studies in sound texture (as much as in melodic structure), tightly associated with this instrument, and difficult to transpose. Those who are less sensitive to texture may indeed prefer the more overtly organised melodic structure of a Weiss, or a de Visée. However, there is a range in French music, from the almost speaking style (as Arto says of Dufaut), to a more Lullian melodic style (spiked with dissonance): from the disolving harmonic patterns of Mouton, through Gallot (announcing the harmonic vocabulary of de Visée), to de Visée himself, with his independently structured bass lines underpinning a strongly articulated melodic superstructure. For some, Weiss might be the pinnacle of this progression; yet both Weiss, and de Visée, proclaim their debt and admiration for Gallot: de Visée quotes Psychée in his tombeaux du Vieux Gallot, while Weiss' reworks L'Amant Malheureux, as a resounding eulogy. As I said in a recent SFL luth journal, in a concert in Paris, Benjamin Narvey underlined this evolution, and while his strong projection and singing style undoubtedly favoured the cantabile of these two great masters*, de Visée and Weiss, his performance of the more elusive Prelude of Mouton (through his masterful phrasing, ornamentation and rhythm), achieved a fluidity approaching the gestures of a baroque dancer. Nothing seemed static, even silences suggested movement: musical flights abruptly suspended, but continued in the mind of the listener. Dissolving harmonic patterns melted into each other, the lute constantly ringing as new notes were struck, the resonance of the lute itself seems the primary focus of the composition. Each lutenist has their own sensitivity and history which makes one composer work better for them than another. I understand you fascination, Mathias, with pure melodic structure, to which I am not immune; but it is the eloquent gesture, elegance, fluidity and poise of French Baroque to which I feel most drawn. However, you are quite right that with the loss of the musical tradition this elusive music has become almost too difficult to interpret, even for the simplest pieces, so rather than attempting Gallot's Psyché, I am at present struggling with de Visée's slightly more melodically approachable Tombeau du Vieux Gallot inspired by this piece. Unfortunately, even for this, it is not sufficient to have a historically suitable lute and excellent stringing with good clarity and sustain, to succeed
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony, There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up as close as possible to breaking stress). Martyn --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22 Dear Ed and All Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs in the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes. % I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be loth to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones? When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does go someway to gearing the peg turn. I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above and then below the desired tuning point, with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs. How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string maker! % Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to the ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I understand tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has some of the sustain of an old lute, that helps your lute's response to your stringing? Of course, with AB's 76cm string length it wouldn't be so surprising if pure gut Pistoys did work well on the Wengerer lute, but if you manage a free sounding bass, without a hint of tubbiness, it will be quite an achievement for a 67cm lute in all Pistoy basses! % I had wanted to add a link to T. Satoh playing the Greiff, to compare with low tension stringing of an old lute. I tried to use the old links I have on my computer, but they all failed. I then tried to go on the Channel Island Classic site, and Firefox signalled warnings that the site had a very poor reputation. I couldn't understand how that could be, but fearing it might be a scam site. I stopped my attempts, which is a pity, as it would be interesting to compare. % You haven't said what tension you have on your basses, and your octaves, but would you classify it as light, medium or heavy? regards Anthony __ De : Edward Martin [1]e...@gamutstrings.com A : Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com; [3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 1h08 Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony and all, I also very much enjoy that old recording of AB on EMI Reflexe. A great, old recording. Your statement that (although, I imagine that with his 76cm lute pure gut basses should also work well) is in complete agreement with my recent experimentation. As you know, I have been doing some experimentation on my French lute, which is now one year old. It is 67.5 cm 11-course Frei. Recently, I put on plain gut, down to the 10th course (actually, Pistoys on the 5th, and Pistoy fundamentals on 6-10) The 11th course still has a loaded gut fundamental from Mimmo. That is the only metal I have on this lute, and I want to say that I am quite happy with the sound of the pure (Pistoy) gut, i.e., without metal). In fact, I prefer it to loaded gut. I just have not gotten around to trying the 11th fundamental in pure gut, but when I do, I think it will work just fine. String makers have done a terrific job in research and production of incorporating of metal into gut, but for my 11-course lute with no bass extension, is very nice indeed. using pure gut. They do not sound tubby at all. Unfortunately, I have not recorded this instrument yet, but will, using this stringing configuration. In my opinion, at least when discussing French baroque lute music, this is certainly worth trying. Another factor I
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Hi Martyn, I think some underlying assumptions need to be brought out here. The main difficulty with gut basses is the thickness of the string in comparison with its length. The thicker the string, other things being equal, the stiffer it will be and so less able to produce the higher harmonics - or at least to have them sounding in tune with the fundamental. This is why a small piano sounds so poor in the bass register compared to a concert grand - short thick basses. It's possible to make gut strings more flexible (high-twist, catlines and so on) and reduce this effect. The other thing is that thicker strings (again, other things being equal) have more internal friction and so lack sustain. This doesn't matter so much for a long thick string as for a short one of the same thickness. One way to try and get around this is to reduce the diameter of the basses on smaller lutes and this leads to lower tensions. There's only so far you can go with low tensions before the strings start to sound like rubber bands being pinged. This can be overcome by increasing the density of the string by 'loading' or gimping so that a thinner string can be tuned at a higher tension. Anyway - I'm gabbling here, because I don't have a joined-up understanding of the dynamics of thick vibrating strings, where stiffness and internal friction are significant factors. In summary, though, there must be a limit to how small you can make a 10c gut-strung lute and still produce an acceptable sound from it. Thoughts? Bill From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 8:02 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up as close as possible to breaking stress). Martyn --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Edward Martin [3]e...@gamutstrings.com Cc: [4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22 Dear Ed and All Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs in the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes. % I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be loth to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones? When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does go someway to gearing the peg turn. I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above and then below the desired tuning point, with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs. How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string maker! % Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to the ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I understand tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has some of the sustain of an old lute, that helps your lute's response to your stringing? Of course, with AB's 76cm string length it wouldn't be so surprising if pure gut Pistoys did work well on the Wengerer lute, but if you manage a free sounding bass, without a hint of tubbiness, it will be quite an achievement for a 67cm lute in all Pistoy basses! % I had wanted to add a link to T. Satoh playing the Greiff, to compare with low tension stringing of an old lute. I tried to use the old links I have on my computer, but they all failed. I then tried to go on the Channel Island Classic site, and Firefox signalled warnings that the site had a very poor reputation. I couldn't understand how that could be, but fearing it might be a scam site. I stopped my attempts, which
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Bill, Ah - but since we generally follow early advice and tune the highest string as high as it can stand, the pitching of the smaller lute will be higher than the larger (eg a whole tone between an instrument of 76 and one of 68cm). Also a smaller lute requires thinner strings than a larger one thus the stress (ie force pu area) and stiffness will be much the same. Comparing small pianos with larger is not the same comparison since they will both be tuned to the same pitch thus requiring, as you point out, thicker overwound strings for the smaller instrument. rgds Martyn --- On Sun, 18/3/12, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 18 March, 2012, 9:22 Hi Martyn, I think some underlying assumptions need to be brought out here. The main difficulty with gut basses is the thickness of the string in comparison with its length. The thicker the string, other things being equal, the stiffer it will be and so less able to produce the higher harmonics - or at least to have them sounding in tune with the fundamental. This is why a small piano sounds so poor in the bass register compared to a concert grand - short thick basses. It's possible to make gut strings more flexible (high-twist, catlines and so on) and reduce this effect. The other thing is that thicker strings (again, other things being equal) have more internal friction and so lack sustain. This doesn't matter so much for a long thick string as for a short one of the same thickness. One way to try and get around this is to reduce the diameter of the basses on smaller lutes and this leads to lower tensions. There's only so far you can go with low tensions before the strings start to sound like rubber bands being pinged. This can be overcome by increasing the density of the string by 'loading' or gimping so that a thinner string can be tuned at a higher tension. Anyway - I'm gabbling here, because I don't have a joined-up understanding of the dynamics of thick vibrating strings, where stiffness and internal friction are significant factors. In summary, though, there must be a limit to how small you can make a 10c gut-strung lute and still produce an acceptable sound from it. Thoughts? Bill From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 8:02 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up as close as possible to breaking stress). Martyn --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Edward Martin [3]e...@gamutstrings.com Cc: [4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22 Dear Ed and All Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs in the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes. % I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be loth to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones? When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does go someway to gearing the peg turn. I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above and then below the desired tuning point, with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs. How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string maker! % Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to the ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I understand tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Hi again Martyn, Yes indeed - The smaller lute will need thinner strings than the larger one but if you go by the highest string almost breaking, that will lead to a lower tension as the thickness of the chanterelle doesn't seem to be related to the pitch at which it breaks. What I'm getting around to asking is, how do the tensions of the basses in a small lute compare to the equivalents in a large lute? If the small lute has half the string length of the large, and is tuned an octave higher, the same tension will require the same string thickness. So if you use thinner basses the tension would need to be somewhat less. Most string calculators I've come across ask the user for the tension they want to use, but don't give much in the way of guidance to what a reasonable tension should be. Do you know if this has been investigated and written up anywhere? All the advice I can find is for medium-sized lutes and suggests tensions around 3kg per string. That would presumably be less for a much smaller lute. Bill From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 9:33 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Bill, Ah - but since we generally follow early advice and tune the highest string as high as it can stand, the pitching of the smaller lute will be higher than the larger (eg a whole tone between an instrument of 76 and one of 68cm). Also a smaller lute requires thinner strings than a larger one thus the stress (ie force pu area) and stiffness will be much the same. Comparing small pianos with larger is not the same comparison since they will both be tuned to the same pitch thus requiring, as you point out, thicker overwound strings for the smaller instrument. rgds Martyn --- On Sun, 18/3/12, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 18 March, 2012, 9:22 Hi Martyn, I think some underlying assumptions need to be brought out here. The main difficulty with gut basses is the thickness of the string in comparison with its length. The thicker the string, other things being equal, the stiffer it will be and so less able to produce the higher harmonics - or at least to have them sounding in tune with the fundamental. This is why a small piano sounds so poor in the bass register compared to a concert grand - short thick basses. It's possible to make gut strings more flexible (high-twist, catlines and so on) and reduce this effect. The other thing is that thicker strings (again, other things being equal) have more internal friction and so lack sustain. This doesn't matter so much for a long thick string as for a short one of the same thickness. One way to try and get around this is to reduce the diameter of the basses on smaller lutes and this leads to lower tensions. There's only so far you can go with low tensions before the strings start to sound like rubber bands being pinged. This can be overcome by increasing the density of the string by 'loading' or gimping so that a thinner string can be tuned at a higher tension. Anyway - I'm gabbling here, because I don't have a joined-up understanding of the dynamics of thick vibrating strings, where stiffness and internal friction are significant factors. In summary, though, there must be a limit to how small you can make a 10c gut-strung lute and still produce an acceptable sound from it. Thoughts? Bill From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2012, 8:02 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, There's no reason why such bass gut strings shouldn't work almost as well on a small lute as on a bigger one: simply the overall pitching will be higher (ie in both cases the highest string will be pulled up as close as possible to breaking stress). Martyn --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.comSubject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDTo: Edward Martin [3]e...@gamutstrings.comCc: [4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.eduDate: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 12:22 Dear Ed and All Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs in the 70s were how I
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Ed and All, Yesterday evening I met someone who had played Jakob Lindberg's Rauwolf, and he told me that it had indeed both wonderful clarity and sustain (as Jakob says), so that you can hear each voice, and indeed each course, quite separately. This could be the sort of quality that the French musicians were searching out for their new tunings (similar to what Anthony Bailes was hoping for with the Wengerer), and perhaps close to the quality Dan Larson achieved when replacing the damaged top on your previous 11c 67cm Frei with a very hard Adirondack top. You said, The top wood is gorgeous, and the sound is very complex. As many have described Adirondack for tops, the treble is very clear, and very strong. I have never heard a new lute with such a singing treble, which makes for a very wonderful sound. http://www.mail-archive.com/baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg01536.html It is entirely possible that it is the hardness of the tables of the old lutes (similar to your Adirondack) which gives this singing quality. % So now, I wonder whether the Sitke Spruce on your new 11c lute is not even harder, and with even more of this quality? This must be a very interesting project for Dan Larson, enabling both of you to hear the varied effects of Italian spruce (the original lute), Adirondack on the restoration, and now a thin piece of bear-claw Sitka Spruce, from Sitka, Alaska. on your new lute. That is as close as one can get to neutralizing other parameters so as to make an almost scientific comparison of the tables. Are you able to make judgement about this, and possibly even to record some comparison tracks? % Other ways of achieving hard tops might be the use of very old timber submerged in the great lakes. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/buying_submerged_lumber A specialist of biochemistry at Texas, Professor Nagyvary says that when wood is submerged, bacteria eat away at hemicellulose and starchy matter in the wood, creating wood ideal for instrument makers. He also provoked this hardening effect by applying Borax salts to table-wood; and Martyn has mentioned research application of oxidyzed linseed oil on tables, all with very similar results. % It may be a pity that more instruments do not appear benefitting from this sort of research; indeed, Stephen Gottlieb has told me that modern European spruce is now softer, and needs to be cut thicker (so we have perhaps lost something from a historical performance point of view). Nevertheless, my 11c lute with bear claw spruce (I don't know of what origin), but strung with loaded strings, did have this singing quality, even before, I attempted to improve on the stringing. I believe that even with our quite different methods and sensitivities many of us may be striving for similar qualities. % On the basses, I use 2.9 Kg of tension on the fundamentals _and_ the octaves. I find your string tensions very interesting. I was expecting you to have adopted quite low tensions to achieve thinnish Pistoy basses (similar to those of T. Satoh), but I see you are fairly close to my overall tensions (2K7 on basses and about 3K on octaves), except that I have slightly less bass tension. Even with loaded strings, I do prefer thinnish basses. However, this is just a personal preference; Benjamin N. has thicker basses, and he also achieves a marvellous singing quality. Fortunately, there are various ways of achieving a similar, but hopefully slightly different, musical result, catering for personal choices and taste. Best regards Anthony __ De : Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com AEUR : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com Cc : baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 22h24 Objet : Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony and all, You are correct, in that the table on my lute is ultra hard, being a thin piece of bear-claw Sitka Spruce, from Sitka, Alaska. That material is seldom used in lutes, because it is so hard and dense, making lute rose carving very difficult. But, the results are brilliant. I have another lute, a 13 course Burkholtzer, and I have Pistoys also down to the 10th course, and it is also clear. In my opinion, I like it better than gimped or loaded gut - that is my preference. For tension, I use a medium tension throughout. On the basses, I use 2.9 Kg of tension on the fundamentals _and_ the octaves. The important point is that one must also use an octave at least as high in tension than the fundamental. One interesting thing is the way the mathematics work out. The octave always turns out always
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony, I do not blame you, and I hope you didn't offense in what I wrote. As for the Pieces de luth LP, I do regret that it was my first encounter with French baroque lute music. When I first listened, I was like, wow, they had jazz in the 17th century. It's so sophisticated, I couldn't tell triple time from even time by listening, I was amazed by the glittering sound, amazed by unexpected progress of harmonies, amazed by unidentifiable rhythmical structures. From then on, my idea of that music was, I kinda like it, but this is so artificial, I will never understand how it works. This music was completely veiled before my ears because of many rubatos, arpeggios instead of broken lines, and so on. Had I first listened to, say, Michael Schäffer, things would have been different for me (but if and would are the fool's last words). That first contact coined my idea of what French baroque lute music was. And that's why I kept my hands off from it for a long time. Like many others, I took my way through Giesbert's method and later through Toyohiko Satoh's. To me, the greatest composers who wrote for the baroque lute, were Bach and Weiss, and none other compared to them. I knew there was some French music, but it was much too tricky and way not rewarding enough as to be worth a try. Sorry for oversimplification, but it comes close. He does mention his stringing in all the booklets relating to the Wengerer lute (his last two CDs), but as I made clear, he says nothing about th stringing of the 12c lute (a pity). I am sorry that you didn't remember it. That's right, he doesn't say a word about his stringing in the booklet of Old Gaultier's Nightingale. Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Ed and All Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astree LPs in the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes. % I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be loth to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones? When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does go someway to gearing the peg turn. I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above and then below the desired tuning point, with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs. How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string maker! % Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to the ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I understand tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has some of the sustain of an old lute, that helps your lute's response to your stringing? Of course, with AB's 76cm string length it wouldn't be so surprising if pure gut Pistoys did work well on the Wengerer lute, but if you manage a free sounding bass, without a hint of tubbiness, it will be quite an achievement for a 67cm lute in all Pistoy basses! % I had wanted to add a link to T. Satoh playing the Greiff, to compare with low tension stringing of an old lute. I tried to use the old links I have on my computer, but they all failed. I then tried to go on the Channel Island Classic site, and Firefox signalled warnings that the site had a very poor reputation. I couldn't understand how that could be, but fearing it might be a scam site. I stopped my attempts, which is a pity, as it would be interesting to compare. % You haven't said what tension you have on your basses, and your octaves, but would you classify it as light, medium or heavy? regards Anthony __ De : Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com A : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 1h08 Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony and all, I also very much enjoy that old recording of AB on EMI Reflexe. A great, old recording. Your statement that (although, I imagine that with his 76cm lute pure gut basses should also work well) is in complete agreement with my recent experimentation. As you know, I have been doing some experimentation on my French lute, which is now one year old. It is 67.5 cm 11-course Frei. Recently, I put on plain gut, down to the 10th course (actually, Pistoys on the 5th, and Pistoy fundamentals on 6-10) The 11th course still has a loaded gut fundamental from Mimmo. That is the only metal I have on this lute, and I want to say that I am quite happy with the sound of the pure (Pistoy) gut, i.e., without metal). In fact, I prefer it to loaded gut. I just have not gotten around to trying the 11th fundamental in pure gut, but when I do, I think it will work just fine. String makers have done a terrific job in research and production of incorporating of metal into gut, but for my 11-course lute with no bass extension, is very nice indeed. using pure gut. They do not sound tubby at all. Unfortunately, I have not recorded this instrument yet, but will, using this stringing configuration. In my opinion, at least when discussing French baroque lute music, this is certainly worth trying. Another factor I have just made a huge modification on the 11-course lute. I have just installed planetary gears, instead of pegs. I know some people disapprove of this, but for many reasons, I am very, very happy with the results. They are expensive - that is a drawback. The thing is, friction pegs can be problematic, and even the best ones, perfectly fitted, do slip a little but. These pegs look _exactly_ like an ebony lute peg, but then _never_ slip or stick. They are geared to 25% of the turning of a friction peg; in other words, one must turn 4 times the distance one would turn using a friction peg. This makes tuning much, much more accurate, and it does not stick, and the action is very fluid. The weight is identical to a lute peg, so no weight is added. With these gears, it is actually, a joy to tune! Sometimes with friction pegs, I may be more hesitant to make
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Mathias Thanks for your explanations, yes I do understand your feelings. I have a number of friends here in Paris, who prefer to play Weiss (or similar) rather than French music, more or less for the reasons you state. Only the bare-bones seem to be encoded in the tablature, and a great depth of understanding is needed to interpret the simplest of pieces. Economy of composition and melodic ambiguity, seems almost contradictory; French classic literature shows similar economy, but seeks out le mot juste (whereas according to a recent BBC programme, English authors delight in ambiguity). I do delight in melodic ambiguity, but am far from mastering the art of its interpretation or grasping the grammar of its rhetoric. My first teacher, Terrence Waterhouse, before I temporarily retired from lute playing, was a student of Michael Schaeffer, and I heard much about his theoretical in-put, through him. At that time I was only learning renaissance lute, and there was unfortunately a long break before I returned to lute playing and the baroque lute. I am in contact with an expert in the interpretation of the French lute, and always amazed at how he makes a piece sing, or talk; in comparison my playing is completely flat, but I strive on. I love his playing of Weiss, but find it almost melodically indulgent (if you know what I mean), I must be rather a melodic puritan, I fear. Best wishes Anthony __ De : Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de A : baroque-lute mailing-list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 10h56 Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, I do not blame you, and I hope you didn't offense in what I wrote. As for the Pieces de luth LP, I do regret that it was my first encounter with French baroque lute music. When I first listened, I was like, wow, they had jazz in the 17th century. It's so sophisticated, I couldn't tell triple time from even time by listening, I was amazed by the glittering sound, amazed by unexpected progress of harmonies, amazed by unidentifiable rhythmical structures. From then on, my idea of that music was, I kinda like it, but this is so artificial, I will never understand how it works. This music was completely veiled before my ears because of many rubatos, arpeggios instead of broken lines, and so on. Had I first listened to, say, Michael Schaeffer, things would have been different for me (but if and would are the fool's last words). That first contact coined my idea of what French baroque lute music was. And that's why I kept my hands off from it for a long time. Like many others, I took my way through Giesbert's method and later through Toyohiko Satoh's. To me, the greatest composers who wrote for the baroque lute, were Bach and Weiss, and none other compared to them. I knew there was some French music, but it was much too tricky and way not rewarding enough as to be worth a try. Sorry for oversimplification, but it comes close. He does mention his stringing in all the booklets relating to the Wengerer lute (his last two CDs), but as I made clear, he says nothing about th stringing of the 12c lute (a pity). I am sorry that you didn't remember it. That's right, he doesn't say a word about his stringing in the booklet of Old Gaultier's Nightingale. Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony, Mathias and the List Some personal aesthetic views of French style and Weiss et co: I am not talking of some music being better or worse than some other music. Actually my opinion is also generally that no style of music is better or worse than any other style. Of course everyone has her/his preferences and no-no's, but that is subjective selection, not the truth. I like very much the French 17th century lute music just because it is uneven and unpredictable; the lengths of phrases vary, there are unexpected harmonies, etc. Often it is like speaking, not so much like singing a versed poem. And just that attracts me - lots of information often in a small space. To me the style of Weiss and other late baroque guys is quite often very square. Everything in pieces of this style usually behaves so well and educated. And it can be so predictable! And so often everything is repeated and repeated ad infinitum... On the other hand, it can be very song-like: beautiful melodies correctly harmonized. Groups of four bars elegantly set to the company of other four bars, A-section ending to the dominant key, B-section bringing it back to the tonic... Well, can sometimes be boring... (Of course there is also very enjoyable music by the late baroque composers, even to me! ;-) Just today I (again) enjoyed the uneven and unpredictable French baroque in the company of Francois Dufault: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eIUhqvJ_zk And yes, I know my graces should be more graceful, but anyhow I am just a Finn, not a Frenchman... ;-)) All the best, Arto On 17/03/12 15:32, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Mathias Thanks for your explanations, yes I do understand your feelings. I have a number of friends here in Paris, who prefer to play Weiss (or similar) rather than French music, more or less for the reasons you state. Only the bare-bones seem to be encoded in the tablature, and a great depth of understanding is needed to interpret the simplest of pieces. Economy of composition and melodic ambiguity, seems almost contradictory; French classic literature shows similar economy, but seeks out le mot juste (whereas according to a recent BBC programme, English authors delight in ambiguity). I do delight in melodic ambiguity, but am far from mastering the art of its interpretation or grasping the grammar of its rhetoric. My first teacher, Terrence Waterhouse, before I temporarily retired from lute playing, was a student of Michael Schaeffer, and I heard much about his theoretical in-put, through him. At that time I was only learning renaissance lute, and there was unfortunately a long break before I returned to lute playing and the baroque lute. I am in contact with an expert in the interpretation of the French lute, and always amazed at how he makes a piece sing, or talk; in comparison my playing is completely flat, but I strive on. I love his playing of Weiss, but find it almost melodically indulgent (if you know what I mean), I must be rather a melodic puritan, I fear. Best wishes Anthony __ De : Mathias Roeselmathias.roe...@t-online.de A : baroque-lute mailing-listbaroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 10h56 Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, I do not blame you, and I hope you didn't offense in what I wrote. As for the Pieces de luth LP, I do regret that it was my first encounter with French baroque lute music. When I first listened, I was like, wow, they had jazz in the 17th century. It's so sophisticated, I couldn't tell triple time from even time by listening, I was amazed by the glittering sound, amazed by unexpected progress of harmonies, amazed by unidentifiable rhythmical structures. From then on, my idea of that music was, I kinda like it, but this is so artificial, I will never understand how it works. This music was completely veiled before my ears because of many rubatos, arpeggios instead of broken lines, and so on. Had I first listened to, say, Michael Schaeffer, things would have been different for me (but if and would are the fool's last words). That first contact coined my idea of what French baroque lute music was. And that's why I kept my hands off from it for a long time. Like many others, I took my way through Giesbert's method and later through Toyohiko Satoh's. To me, the greatest composers who wrote for the baroque lute, were Bach and Weiss, and none other compared to them. I knew there was some French music, but it was much too tricky and way not rewarding enough as to be worth a try. Sorry for oversimplification, but it comes close. He does mention his stringing in all the booklets
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony and all, You are correct, in that the table on my lute is ultra hard, being a thin piece of bear-claw Sitka Spruce, from Sitka, Alaska. That material is seldom used in lutes, because it is so hard and dense, making lute rose carving very difficult. But, the results are brilliant. I have another lute, a 13 course Burkholtzer, and I have Pistoys also down to the 10th course, and it is also clear. In my opinion, I like it better than gimped or loaded gut - that is my preference. For tension, I use a medium tension throughout. On the basses, I use 2.9 Kg of tension on the fundamentals _and_ the octaves. The important point is that one must also use an octave at least as high in tension than the fundamental. One interesting thing is the way the mathematics work out. The octave always turns out always to be exactly half the size of the fundamental. For example, if the bass is 1.6 mm, the octave is 0.80 mm. In case you are interested, this is what I am using: Course Fundamental Octave 6 1.180.60 7 1.320.66 8 1.480.74 9 1.580.80 10 1.760.88 11 1.981.00 ed At 07:22 AM 3/17/2012, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Ed and All Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and Astrée LPs in the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes. % I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be loth to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but perhaps the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones? When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does go someway to gearing the peg turn. I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above and then below the desired tuning point, with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs. How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string maker! % Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to the ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I understand tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has some of the sustain of an old lute, that helps your lute's response to your stringing? Of course, with AB's 76cm string length it wouldn't be so surprising if pure gut Pistoys did work well on the Wengerer lute, but if you manage a free sounding bass, without a hint of tubbiness, it will be quite an achievement for a 67cm lute in all Pistoy basses! % I had wanted to add a link to T. Satoh playing the Greiff, to compare with low tension stringing of an old lute. I tried to use the old links I have on my computer, but they all failed. I then tried to go on the Channel Island Classic site, and Firefox signalled warnings that the site had a very poor reputation. I couldn't understand how that could be, but fearing it might be a scam site. I stopped my attempts, which is a pity, as it would be interesting to compare. % You haven't said what tension you have on your basses, and your octaves, but would you classify it as light, medium or heavy? regards Anthony De : Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com À : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoyé le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 1h08 Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony and all, I also very much enjoy that old recording of AB on EMI Reflexe. A great, old recording. Your statement that (although, I imagine that with his 76cm lute pure gut basses should also work well) is in complete agreement with my recent experimentation. As you know, I have been doing some experimentation on my French lute, which is now one year old. It is 67.5 cm 11-course Frei. Recently, I put on plain gut, down to the 10th course (actually, Pistoys on the 5th, and Pistoy fundamentals on 6-10) The 11th course still has a loaded gut fundamental from Mimmo. That is the only metal I have on this lute, and I want to say that I am quite happy with the sound of the pure (Pistoy) gut, i.e., without metal). In fact, I prefer it to loaded gut. I just have not gotten around to trying the 11th fundamental in pure gut, but when I do, I think it will work just fine. String makers have done a terrific job in research and production of incorporating of metal into gut, but for my 11-course lute with no bass extension, is very nice indeed. using pure gut. They do not sound tubby at all. Unfortunately, I have
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Arto, Thank you for your balanced views! I agree in general that there's no better or worse in matters of taste. I hasten to add, though, that taste is a matter of education, a matter of discerning the ways. When I look back, I must admit that some things went wrong in the very beginning of my lute schooling. Wrong is a strong word, I know, but that's what it looks like from my perspective of today. Giesbert's method does not contain French baroque music, offering but late German baroque. Satoh's method has one piece by Gallot, but via the famous arrangement by Weiss! The method by Michel Serdoura / Yisrael has been the best so far IMO in that it offers very well written articles by several authors and a wide range of music. That is the desirable width of mind that Dagobert Bruger had already reached in 1928. No mention, though, of other types of the instrument. The baroque lute is a number of different lutes, rather, comprising 10c through 13c lutes, including different types of theorboed and non-theorboed lutes, not to speak of different tunings. You mentioned traits like uneven and unpredictable passages, varying the lengths of phrases, unexpected harmonies in French baroque lute music. I share these impressions (don't particularly like them, though), but I am suspicious that they have been provoked by circulating recordings which helped to create this kind of common approach towards this music. I appreciate more the ways these composers e.g. deal with their melodies. Thank you anyway for Monsieur Dufaut's courante! Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Arto Wikla Gesendet: Samstag, 17. März 2012 19:15 An: Anthony Hind Cc: Mathias Rösel; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, Mathias and the List Some personal aesthetic views of French style and Weiss et co: I am not talking of some music being better or worse than some other music. Actually my opinion is also generally that no style of music is better or worse than any other style. Of course everyone has her/his preferences and no- no's, but that is subjective selection, not the truth. I like very much the French 17th century lute music just because it is uneven and unpredictable; the lengths of phrases vary, there are unexpected harmonies, etc. Often it is like speaking, not so much like singing a versed poem. And just that attracts me - lots of information often in a small space. To me the style of Weiss and other late baroque guys is quite often very square. Everything in pieces of this style usually behaves so well and educated. And it can be so predictable! And so often everything is repeated and repeated ad infinitum... On the other hand, it can be very song-like: beautiful melodies correctly harmonized. Groups of four bars elegantly set to the company of other four bars, A-section ending to the dominant key, B-section bringing it back to the tonic... Well, can sometimes be boring... (Of course there is also very enjoyable music by the late baroque composers, even to me! ;-) Just today I (again) enjoyed the uneven and unpredictable French baroque in the company of Francois Dufault: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eIUhqvJ_zk And yes, I know my graces should be more graceful, but anyhow I am just a Finn, not a Frenchman... ;-)) All the best, Arto On 17/03/12 15:32, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear Mathias Thanks for your explanations, yes I do understand your feelings. I have a number of friends here in Paris, who prefer to play Weiss (or similar) rather than French music, more or less for the reasons you state. Only the bare-bones seem to be encoded in the tablature, and a great depth of understanding is needed to interpret the simplest of pieces. Economy of composition and melodic ambiguity, seems almost contradictory; French classic literature shows similar economy, but seeks out le mot juste (whereas according to a recent BBC programme, English authors delight in ambiguity). I do delight in melodic ambiguity, but am far from mastering the art of its interpretation or grasping the grammar of its rhetoric. My first teacher, Terrence Waterhouse, before I temporarily retired from lute playing, was a student of Michael Schaeffer, and I heard much about his theoretical in-put, through him. At that time I was only learning renaissance lute, and there was unfortunately a long break before I returned to lute playing and the baroque lute. I am in contact with an expert in the interpretation of the French lute, and always amazed at how he makes a piece sing, or talk; in comparison my playing is completely flat, but I strive on. I love his playing of Weiss, but find it almost melodically indulgent (if you know
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Thank you for the heads-up, Ed. I just checked and the CD won't be available in the UK until April 23rd. Pre-ordering is possible though! Tony is certainly covering the repertoire, isn't he? Interesting that he uses A70. It's really all you can do when you use a gut chanterelle on a lute of that size - unless you want to be renewing it every other day. Am I right in remembering that several MSS call the 'D-minor' tuning 'Be-mol'? That would seem to be perfectly accurate in terms of our modern pitch standard :o). I'm sure that's not what Be-mol means, of course, but it's a nice conceit. Seriously, though, some of us still choose to use screaming pitches for our lute tuning rather than relying on what our guts tell us. Bill From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 2:50 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Ones, For those on the list who enjoy well played 11-course French baroque lute, there is a new release by Abthony Bailes, on the Ramee label. it is entitled, 'Une Douceur violente, and it contains works of Mouton and Gallot. He recorded this program on his authentic lute by Georgi Ferdinand Wenger, Augsburg, 1722. The catalog number is RAM 1104, and it is available in the USA, in usual outlets. This is an announcement, not a review. The instrument is a large one, and the pitch is consequently quite low, at a70, in essence making it in a b-minor tuning. Beautiful sound and playing, highly recommended. ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [1]e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 [2]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871ref=name [3]http://www.myspace.com/edslute [4]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 2. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871ref=name 3. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 4. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Martyn, Thank you for this notice: in fact this CD has been out in Europe for over a year. I think you confuse it with some other recording. (Old Gautiers Nightinghall?) This one is quite new. [1]www.ramee.org/1104gb.html best regards Bernd -- References 1. http://www.ramee.org/1104gb.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Martyn, Thank you for this notice: in fact this CD has been out in Europe for over a year. I think you confuse it with some other recording. (Old Gautiers Nightinghall?) This one is quite new. [1]www.ramee.org/1104gb.html best regards Bernd To be precise, the argument in the Lute News was about Gaultier. Apollon Orateu, RAM 0904. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony Hind! Anthony Bailes LP recording of 'Pieces de luth'; EMI REFLEXE; IC 06330938, was my introduction to French baroque lute music. After that I was hooked. So was I at the time. All my prejudices were set, and I was sent for a long way. I have enjoyed his recent CDs (although I had not yet heard this, his most recent one), but regret that the recordings (in particular Old Gautiers Nightinghall) do seem to have become a little more reverberant, which may take away somewhat from his recent excellent string choices on the Wengerer: Nick Baldock trebles, Dan Larson, Lyons Meanes, and Mimmo Peruffo loaded basses (although, I imagine that with I don't seem to remember he mentioned his distinct choice of strings in the booklet. Indeed, Anthony B. has always had an experimental atttitude to historic research. In his excellent article for Lute News 85, April 2008, he That was not an article, it was Chris Goodwin's written version of a talk that Mr Bailes had held before the British Lute Society. It was an excellent talk IMO, but I cannot see the experimental approach in it. In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his interpretation of this music that he appears willing to sacrifice ideal string length (and possibly barring), adopting the 76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords. That is still another approach. Did you note the exchange between Mr Bailes and Martyn Hodgson about the subject? Jakob Lindberg seems to confirm AB's experience, claiming two almost contradictory characteristics for his Rauwolf: this has exactly what I want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing. Not sure what Mr Bailes experience really was or is. I'd be curious what his answer to your statement would be. And so on. Sorry, not enough time for this ... Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony and all, I also very much enjoy that old recording of AB on EMI Reflexe. A great, old recording. Your statement that (although, I imagine that with his 76cm lute pure gut basses should also work well) is in complete agreement with my recent experimentation. As you know, I have been doing some experimentation on my French lute, which is now one year old. It is 67.5 cm 11-course Frei. Recently, I put on plain gut, down to the 10th course (actually, Pistoys on the 5th, and Pistoy fundamentals on 6-10) The 11th course still has a loaded gut fundamental from Mimmo. That is the only metal I have on this lute, and I want to say that I am quite happy with the sound of the pure (Pistoy) gut, i.e., without metal). In fact, I prefer it to loaded gut. I just have not gotten around to trying the 11th fundamental in pure gut, but when I do, I think it will work just fine. String makers have done a terrific job in research and production of incorporating of metal into gut, but for my 11-course lute with no bass extension, is very nice indeed. using pure gut. They do not sound tubby at all. Unfortunately, I have not recorded this instrument yet, but will, using this stringing configuration. In my opinion, at least when discussing French baroque lute music, this is certainly worth trying. Another factor I have just made a huge modification on the 11-course lute. I have just installed planetary gears, instead of pegs. I know some people disapprove of this, but for many reasons, I am very, very happy with the results. They are expensive - that is a drawback. The thing is, friction pegs can be problematic, and even the best ones, perfectly fitted, do slip a little but. These pegs look _exactly_ like an ebony lute peg, but then _never_ slip or stick. They are geared to 25% of the turning of a friction peg; in other words, one must turn 4 times the distance one would turn using a friction peg. This makes tuning much, much more accurate, and it does not stick, and the action is very fluid. The weight is identical to a lute peg, so no weight is added. With these gears, it is actually, a joy to tune! Sometimes with friction pegs, I may be more hesitant to make micro-adjustments in tuning, but with planetary gears, they are so smooth, fast, and accurate, it seems as though my lute sounds so much better, as it is little to nothing to finely adjust the tuning. I now have my 2 favorite instruments in these gears - my vihuela, and 11-course lute. In short, it is a winning combination - the beautiful sound in gut, with greatly improved tuning. ed At 10:07 AM 3/16/2012, Anthony Hind wrote: Dear All Anthony Bailes LP recording of 'Pieces de luth'; EMI REFLEXE; IC 06330938, was my introduction to French baroque lute music. After that I was hooked. I have enjoyed his recent CDs (although I had not yet heard this, his most recent one), but regret that the recordings (in particular Old Gautiers Nightinghall) do seem to have become a little more reverberant, which may take away somewhat from his recent excellent string choices on the Wengerer: Nick Baldock trebles, Dan Larson, Lyons Meanes, and Mimmo Peruffo loaded basses (v AB seems to be one of the few pioneers still experimenting seriously in gut stringing. % Indeed, Anthony B. has always had an experimental atttitude to historic research. In his excellent article for Lute News 85, April 2008, he said, of the old Bologna lutes so sought after by the French, that Trichet tells us French lute players were looking for instruments which were very resonant, and capable of sustain; and he goes on to tell us of his experience of playing old lutes, The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments have more sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds on longer than it actually does. In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his interpretation of this music that he appears willing to sacrifice ideal string length (and possibly barring), adopting the 76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords. % Jakob Lindberg seems to confirm AB's experience, claiming two almost contradictory characteristics for his Rauwolf: this has exactly what I want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing. % It seems to be the function of this quality that AB is seeking to study with his recent recordings, at the expense of any characteristic specifically associated with more usual string lengths of around 68 cm (as correctly suggested by Martyn). Of course one might have preferred AB to have discovered another 69.5 cm Rauwolf, Greiff (or whatever), but no doubt he had to settle for the
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear All Anthony Bailes LP recording of 'Pieces de luth'; EMI REFLEXE; IC 06330938, was my introduction to French baroque lute music. After that I was hooked. I have enjoyed his recent CDs (although I had not yet heard this, his most recent one), but regret that the recordings (in particular Old Gautiers Nightinghall) do seem to have become a little more reverberant, which may take away somewhat from his recent excellent string choices on the Wengerer: Nick Baldock trebles, Dan Larson, Lyons Meanes, and Mimmo Peruffo loaded basses (although, I imagine that with this 76cm lute pure gut basses should also work well). AB seems to be one of the few pioneers still experimenting seriously in gut stringing. % Indeed, Anthony B. has always had an experimental atttitude to historic research. In his excellent article for Lute News 85, April 2008, he said, of the old Bologna lutes so sought after by the French, that Trichet tells us French lute players were looking for instruments which were very resonant, and capable of sustain; and he goes on to tell us of his experience of playing old lutes, The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments have more sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds on longer than it actually does. In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his interpretation of this music that he appears willing to sacrifice ideal string length (and possibly barring), adopting the 76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords. % Jakob Lindberg seems to confirm AB's experience, claiming two almost contradictory characteristics for his Rauwolf: this has exactly what I want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing. % It seems to be the function of this quality that AB is seeking to study with his recent recordings, at the expense of any characteristic specifically associated with more usual string lengths of around 68 cm (as correctly suggested by Martyn). Of course one might have preferred AB to have discovered another 69.5 cm Rauwolf, Greiff (or whatever), but no doubt he had to settle for the Wenger, or possibly chose it to isolate what this could bring, in spite of string length and barring differences. % The question then (implied by Martyn) is what AB may have gained or lost in choosing a lute which might seem more suitable for late German Baroque. AB mentions the elegeance and economy in the music, and it is possible that this also extended to the playing position and thus the length of the lute chosen, as seen in the rather nonchalant confortable elegant style of Charles Mouton: http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd However, AB does have very long fingers, and seems to have very little problem in playing with such string lengths: http://tinyurl.com/77x475k Although the two do indeed look very different (and possibly, as Martyn says, the second might have been incongruous to a French audience of the time). % Soundwise, and this could be more important, we might have expected the 276 year old Wenger to have lost a little in the mid register (as compared to the 80 to 100 year old 68 cm lutes that the French were seeking out), and with perhaps more bass presence, due to the 76cm loaded basses: the French with their smaller lutes, may rather have been exploring the mid range, at the expense of these frequency extremes. Only listening to AB playing French music with this lute can confirm or infirm, whether this is indeed the case. Unfortunateley, MP3 and recording equipment may not be up to the job of discriminating this (can we be sure that we are not hearing the mics, the room acoustics rather than differences in lutes). But here is a recording of a modern 67cm Warwick Frei (415) strung in a not too different way, from the Wenger, with loaded basses and Nick Baldock Meanes and trebles. http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3 and here is an extract from Une Douceur violente, AB on the Wengere lute (375, loaded Basses, Larson Meanes, Baldock Trebles): Seventeenth-century French lute music [1]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3 % Personally, trying only to concentrate on the tonal differences, and abstracting from player's style, as well as recording level and 415/370 pitch (an almost impossible task?) I enjoy both, and I do hear a great deal of presence in the case of the old lute (with no obvious mid lack), but with exactly the slightly veiled (slightly nasal?) quality, which AB claims obliges him to play well back near the bridge with old lutes; this is my reaction, but I am not a musicologist, specialist in french baroque music. Just to
