[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? (Lute top)
Mimmo Peruffo told me he had measured the thickness of some Torres tops and they were both incredibly thin and excessively hard. It was very hard to bend them, although the barring was not different from modern instruments. I think he feels they must have had some chemical treatment, as they were also dark in colour. I suppose they might have come from a stock of wood that had been chemically treated for infestation, or this could have occurred accidentally; although Mimmo discovered 18th century recipes for treating wood chemically so as to obtain such hardness. However, one gamba instrument I know, coming from China, was made out of excessively old wood from old buildings that were destroyed while building new roads. It has an exceptional sound for the price, and the soundboard looks quite remarkable with superb bearclawing (I seem to remember that the Rauwolf barring was restored using some very old wood from the restoration of a building in Venice); I suppose very ancient wood that has completely dried out, could also take on these qualities. Regards Anthony PS I believe climate also plays a role in achieving tight grain (what ever the wood). Thus Yew wood for bows generally came from Spain, and not England, as the grain in English was less tight (too much climate variation, not enough regularity). Perhaps the Picea abies of the past grew in more ideal climatic conditions, and also the stocks might have been better strored and for longer periods; so that the wood we have today might not be at all close to what existed at the height of lute-making. In which case there would seem no reason not to use Adirondack, if that is closer in quality to the wood that was available at the time (chemical treatment, or liberal use of Linseed oil, as Martyn Hodgson mentionned, could be another solution). Le 2 oct. 09 à 17:54, Eugene C. Braig IV a écrit : There is a very decided break between the pre-Segovia and post-Segovia guitar. After, most guitars were built to a very Spanish, post-Torres tradition. That involved European spruce (Picea abies) and, later, western red cedar (Thuja plicata) and, later still, Engelmann spruce (P. engelmannii). There are modern classical guitar builders out there to have used red spruce (P. rubens), but not on anything like a mass- production scale any more, and I'm not certain I've ever handled one. My own wedding-gig workhorse guitar is topped in Engelmann spruce. However, from the pre-Segovia classical tradition, original 19th- c. C.F. Martin Co. guitars were built for a romantic-era repertoire and gut strings, and many used red/Adirondack spruce as did several other American makes. I like them, and they aren't that uncommon. You should check one out if you find the opportunity, and especially if you find one with an owner who keeps it in gut and silver-wound silk. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com] Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 11:26 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; ' Mathias Rösel '; 'Edward Martin' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? Out of curiosity, how does Adirondack (picea rubens) stack up for nylon strung guitars? ed At 09:03 AM 10/2/2009, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: As I suspect you know, Mathias (and Ed), red spruce (Picea rubens) has been a prized tonewood in the American guitar and mandolin industry from the 19th c. on. Getting a little discussion at the vihuela list is my newly rebuilt vihuela, now topped in Lutz spruce (Picea x lutzii), which actually is a hybrid between sitka (P. sitchensis) and white (P. glauca) spruces. I am quite pleased with the result. More popular North American spruces as tonewoods have been sitka on metal-strung instruments and Engelmann (P. engelmannii) on gut-/ nylon- strung ones. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute- a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mathias Rösel Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:29 AM To: Edward Martin Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com schrieb: Yes, good wood is not cheap. You mentioned spruce... I received my 11-course lute a week ago! It had an accident, and the belly had been destroyed. So, Dan Larson put a new top on it. It is spruce from New England, known as Adirondack spruce, or red spruce, or Appalacian spruce. I have never heard of Adirondack used on a lute, prior to this one. The results are beautiful! The treble is incredibly clear, singing. Yes, I read the thread with great interest. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood#Topwoods_.28soundboard.29 have it that picea rubens is an excellent tonewood for soundboards. European luthiers don't use it as far as I'm aware, and I won't make it over the pond,unfortunately, in the near future so as to listen to your
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com schrieb: Yes, good wood is not cheap. You mentioned spruce... I received my 11-course lute a week ago! It had an accident, and the belly had been destroyed. So, Dan Larson put a new top on it. It is spruce from New England, known as Adirondack spruce, or red spruce, or Appalacian spruce. I have never heard of Adirondack used on a lute, prior to this one. The results are beautiful! The treble is incredibly clear, singing. Yes, I read the thread with great interest. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood#Topwoods_.28soundboard.29 have it that picea rubens is an excellent tonewood for soundboards. European luthiers don't use it as far as I'm aware, and I won't make it over the pond,unfortunately, in the near future so as to listen to your playing. Mathias At 07:45 PM 10/1/2009, Mathias Rösel wrote: Yew for bowls e. g. is quite expensive in Old Europe as it was almost extinguished when yew was required for military bows. Good spruce is rare and not exactly cheap. Ebony for necks and fretboards still is exotic woods, rare and expensive, if I'm not mistaken. So, a good HIP lute cannot be cheap. But lutes still are cheap, compared to celli. My farthing FWIW Mathias Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl schrieb: Well, it may be possible that some people will buy such a lute, but we have to ask what is the reason for doing so. The lute is not only a device. I can only quote Ernst Gottlieb Baron (1727) who says in his Study of the lute: I once saw at Herr Hoffman's in Leipzig an old lute of solid copper, heavily gilded on the back with many figures etched upon it, and the top was of black ebony. But when I examined the tone, I found that this instrument sounded more like an old pot than a true lute. Whoever wishes to have a good-sounding instrument will choose good and appropriate wood. Best Jaroslaw Lipski - Original Message - From: Mustafa Umut Sarac mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? There are some people wastes 50 years to create their art designs cheapest , no need to cnc lathes and enviromentally friendly. I gave my 25 years to studying this kind of stuff. If you look to Luigi Colani , he creates whatever he wants with hot wire cut foam. I think this is the cheapest , fastest , less complex , and using least electric technology. And no noise for home studios in the apartments Only you have to do is to create a moving hot wire inside foam. Than you fill the cut foam with polyester slowly , and seal the foam. There would be no nasty fume. You can fill the very thin foam cut with a syringe very slowly. I asked to produce a guitar with rapid production , rapid prototyping methods and it costs 3000 dollars without a neck . This is not intelligent. Hot wire FOAM CUT is the best How you will produce the back , one by one and assembling the foams together precisely and fill with epoxy. I am seriously thinking to produce Lutes with this technology. You can produce carbon composites with adding graphite carbon powder in to the polymer ! It is like using saw and a wood. Best , Mustafa Umut Sarac Istanbul To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.2/2408 - Release Date: 10/01/09 18:23:00 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
As I suspect you know, Mathias (and Ed), red spruce (Picea rubens) has been a prized tonewood in the American guitar and mandolin industry from the 19th c. on. Getting a little discussion at the vihuela list is my newly rebuilt vihuela, now topped in Lutz spruce (Picea x lutzii), which actually is a hybrid between sitka (P. sitchensis) and white (P. glauca) spruces. I am quite pleased with the result. More popular North American spruces as tonewoods have been sitka on metal-strung instruments and Engelmann (P. engelmannii) on gut-/nylon-strung ones. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mathias Rösel Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:29 AM To: Edward Martin Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com schrieb: Yes, good wood is not cheap. You mentioned spruce... I received my 11-course lute a week ago! It had an accident, and the belly had been destroyed. So, Dan Larson put a new top on it. It is spruce from New England, known as Adirondack spruce, or red spruce, or Appalacian spruce. I have never heard of Adirondack used on a lute, prior to this one. The results are beautiful! The treble is incredibly clear, singing. Yes, I read the thread with great interest. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood#Topwoods_.28soundboard.29 have it that picea rubens is an excellent tonewood for soundboards. European luthiers don't use it as far as I'm aware, and I won't make it over the pond,unfortunately, in the near future so as to listen to your playing. Mathias At 07:45 PM 10/1/2009, Mathias Rösel wrote: Yew for bowls e. g. is quite expensive in Old Europe as it was almost extinguished when yew was required for military bows. Good spruce is rare and not exactly cheap. Ebony for necks and fretboards still is exotic woods, rare and expensive, if I'm not mistaken. So, a good HIP lute cannot be cheap. But lutes still are cheap, compared to celli. My farthing FWIW Mathias Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl schrieb: Well, it may be possible that some people will buy such a lute, but we have to ask what is the reason for doing so. The lute is not only a device. I can only quote Ernst Gottlieb Baron (1727) who says in his Study of the lute: I once saw at Herr Hoffman's in Leipzig an old lute of solid copper, heavily gilded on the back with many figures etched upon it, and the top was of black ebony. But when I examined the tone, I found that this instrument sounded more like an old pot than a true lute. Whoever wishes to have a good-sounding instrument will choose good and appropriate wood. Best Jaroslaw Lipski - Original Message - From: Mustafa Umut Sarac mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? There are some people wastes 50 years to create their art designs cheapest , no need to cnc lathes and enviromentally friendly. I gave my 25 years to studying this kind of stuff. If you look to Luigi Colani , he creates whatever he wants with hot wire cut foam. I think this is the cheapest , fastest , less complex , and using least electric technology. And no noise for home studios in the apartments Only you have to do is to create a moving hot wire inside foam. Than you fill the cut foam with polyester slowly , and seal the foam. There would be no nasty fume. You can fill the very thin foam cut with a syringe very slowly. I asked to produce a guitar with rapid production , rapid prototyping methods and it costs 3000 dollars without a neck . This is not intelligent. Hot wire FOAM CUT is the best How you will produce the back , one by one and assembling the foams together precisely and fill with epoxy. I am seriously thinking to produce Lutes with this technology. You can produce carbon composites with adding graphite carbon powder in to the polymer ! It is like using saw and a wood. Best , Mustafa Umut Sarac Istanbul To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.2/2408 - Release Date: 10/01/09 18:23:00 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Thank you, Mathias. Yes, I was already aware of the Wikipedia article on top woods, but not the one on Picea Rubens. Thank you! ed At 04:29 AM 10/2/2009, Mathias Rösel wrote: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com schrieb: Yes, good wood is not cheap. You mentioned spruce... I received my 11-course lute a week ago! It had an accident, and the belly had been destroyed. So, Dan Larson put a new top on it. It is spruce from New England, known as Adirondack spruce, or red spruce, or Appalacian spruce. I have never heard of Adirondack used on a lute, prior to this one. The results are beautiful! The treble is incredibly clear, singing. Yes, I read the thread with great interest. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood#Topwoods_.28soundboard.29 have it that picea rubens is an excellent tonewood for soundboards. European luthiers don't use it as far as I'm aware, and I won't make it over the pond,unfortunately, in the near future so as to listen to your playing. Mathias At 07:45 PM 10/1/2009, Mathias Rösel wrote: Yew for bowls e. g. is quite expensive in Old Europe as it was almost extinguished when yew was required for military bows. Good spruce is rare and not exactly cheap. Ebony for necks and fretboards still is exotic woods, rare and expensive, if I'm not mistaken. So, a good HIP lute cannot be cheap. But lutes still are cheap, compared to celli. My farthing FWIW Mathias Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl schrieb: Well, it may be possible that some people will buy such a lute, but we have to ask what is the reason for doing so. The lute is not only a device. I can only quote Ernst Gottlieb Baron (1727) who says in his Study of the lute: I once saw at Herr Hoffman's in Leipzig an old lute of solid copper, heavily gilded on the back with many figures etched upon it, and the top was of black ebony. But when I examined the tone, I found that this instrument sounded more like an old pot than a true lute. Whoever wishes to have a good-sounding instrument will choose good and appropriate wood. Best Jaroslaw Lipski - Original Message - From: Mustafa Umut Sarac mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? There are some people wastes 50 years to create their art designs cheapest , no need to cnc lathes and enviromentally friendly. I gave my 25 years to studying this kind of stuff. If you look to Luigi Colani , he creates whatever he wants with hot wire cut foam. I think this is the cheapest , fastest , less complex , and using least electric technology. And no noise for home studios in the apartments Only you have to do is to create a moving hot wire inside foam. Than you fill the cut foam with polyester slowly , and seal the foam. There would be no nasty fume. You can fill the very thin foam cut with a syringe very slowly. I asked to produce a guitar with rapid production , rapid prototyping methods and it costs 3000 dollars without a neck . This is not intelligent. Hot wire FOAM CUT is the best How you will produce the back , one by one and assembling the foams together precisely and fill with epoxy. I am seriously thinking to produce Lutes with this technology. You can produce carbon composites with adding graphite carbon powder in to the polymer ! It is like using saw and a wood. Best , Mustafa Umut Sarac Istanbul To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.2/2408 - Release Date: 10/01/09 18:23:00 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.2/2408 - Release Date: 10/01/09 18:23:00 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Out of curiosity, how does Adirondack (picea rubens) stack up for nylon strung guitars? ed At 09:03 AM 10/2/2009, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: As I suspect you know, Mathias (and Ed), red spruce (Picea rubens) has been a prized tonewood in the American guitar and mandolin industry from the 19th c. on. Getting a little discussion at the vihuela list is my newly rebuilt vihuela, now topped in Lutz spruce (Picea x lutzii), which actually is a hybrid between sitka (P. sitchensis) and white (P. glauca) spruces. I am quite pleased with the result. More popular North American spruces as tonewoods have been sitka on metal-strung instruments and Engelmann (P. engelmannii) on gut-/nylon-strung ones. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mathias Rösel Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:29 AM To: Edward Martin Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com schrieb: Yes, good wood is not cheap. You mentioned spruce... I received my 11-course lute a week ago! It had an accident, and the belly had been destroyed. So, Dan Larson put a new top on it. It is spruce from New England, known as Adirondack spruce, or red spruce, or Appalacian spruce. I have never heard of Adirondack used on a lute, prior to this one. The results are beautiful! The treble is incredibly clear, singing. Yes, I read the thread with great interest. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood#Topwoods_.28soundboard.29 have it that picea rubens is an excellent tonewood for soundboards. European luthiers don't use it as far as I'm aware, and I won't make it over the pond,unfortunately, in the near future so as to listen to your playing. Mathias At 07:45 PM 10/1/2009, Mathias Rösel wrote: Yew for bowls e. g. is quite expensive in Old Europe as it was almost extinguished when yew was required for military bows. Good spruce is rare and not exactly cheap. Ebony for necks and fretboards still is exotic woods, rare and expensive, if I'm not mistaken. So, a good HIP lute cannot be cheap. But lutes still are cheap, compared to celli. My farthing FWIW Mathias Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl schrieb: Well, it may be possible that some people will buy such a lute, but we have to ask what is the reason for doing so. The lute is not only a device. I can only quote Ernst Gottlieb Baron (1727) who says in his Study of the lute: I once saw at Herr Hoffman's in Leipzig an old lute of solid copper, heavily gilded on the back with many figures etched upon it, and the top was of black ebony. But when I examined the tone, I found that this instrument sounded more like an old pot than a true lute. Whoever wishes to have a good-sounding instrument will choose good and appropriate wood. Best Jaroslaw Lipski - Original Message - From: Mustafa Umut Sarac mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? There are some people wastes 50 years to create their art designs cheapest , no need to cnc lathes and enviromentally friendly. I gave my 25 years to studying this kind of stuff. If you look to Luigi Colani , he creates whatever he wants with hot wire cut foam. I think this is the cheapest , fastest , less complex , and using least electric technology. And no noise for home studios in the apartments Only you have to do is to create a moving hot wire inside foam. Than you fill the cut foam with polyester slowly , and seal the foam. There would be no nasty fume. You can fill the very thin foam cut with a syringe very slowly. I asked to produce a guitar with rapid production , rapid prototyping methods and it costs 3000 dollars without a neck . This is not intelligent. Hot wire FOAM CUT is the best How you will produce the back , one by one and assembling the foams together precisely and fill with epoxy. I am seriously thinking to produce Lutes with this technology. You can produce carbon composites with adding graphite carbon powder in to the polymer ! It is like using saw and a wood. Best , Mustafa Umut Sarac Istanbul To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.2/2408 - Release Date: 10/01/09 18:23:00 Edward Martin
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
There is a very decided break between the pre-Segovia and post-Segovia guitar. After, most guitars were built to a very Spanish, post-Torres tradition. That involved European spruce (Picea abies) and, later, western red cedar (Thuja plicata) and, later still, Engelmann spruce (P. engelmannii). There are modern classical guitar builders out there to have used red spruce (P. rubens), but not on anything like a mass-production scale any more, and I'm not certain I've ever handled one. My own wedding-gig workhorse guitar is topped in Engelmann spruce. However, from the pre-Segovia classical tradition, original 19th-c. C.F. Martin Co. guitars were built for a romantic-era repertoire and gut strings, and many used red/Adirondack spruce as did several other American makes. I like them, and they aren't that uncommon. You should check one out if you find the opportunity, and especially if you find one with an owner who keeps it in gut and silver-wound silk. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com] Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 11:26 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; ' Mathias Rösel '; 'Edward Martin' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? Out of curiosity, how does Adirondack (picea rubens) stack up for nylon strung guitars? ed At 09:03 AM 10/2/2009, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: As I suspect you know, Mathias (and Ed), red spruce (Picea rubens) has been a prized tonewood in the American guitar and mandolin industry from the 19th c. on. Getting a little discussion at the vihuela list is my newly rebuilt vihuela, now topped in Lutz spruce (Picea x lutzii), which actually is a hybrid between sitka (P. sitchensis) and white (P. glauca) spruces. I am quite pleased with the result. More popular North American spruces as tonewoods have been sitka on metal-strung instruments and Engelmann (P. engelmannii) on gut-/nylon- strung ones. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mathias Rösel Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:29 AM To: Edward Martin Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com schrieb: Yes, good wood is not cheap. You mentioned spruce... I received my 11-course lute a week ago! It had an accident, and the belly had been destroyed. So, Dan Larson put a new top on it. It is spruce from New England, known as Adirondack spruce, or red spruce, or Appalacian spruce. I have never heard of Adirondack used on a lute, prior to this one. The results are beautiful! The treble is incredibly clear, singing. Yes, I read the thread with great interest. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood#Topwoods_.28soundboard.29 have it that picea rubens is an excellent tonewood for soundboards. European luthiers don't use it as far as I'm aware, and I won't make it over the pond,unfortunately, in the near future so as to listen to your playing. Mathias At 07:45 PM 10/1/2009, Mathias Rösel wrote: Yew for bowls e. g. is quite expensive in Old Europe as it was almost extinguished when yew was required for military bows. Good spruce is rare and not exactly cheap. Ebony for necks and fretboards still is exotic woods, rare and expensive, if I'm not mistaken. So, a good HIP lute cannot be cheap. But lutes still are cheap, compared to celli. My farthing FWIW Mathias Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl schrieb: Well, it may be possible that some people will buy such a lute, but we have to ask what is the reason for doing so. The lute is not only a device. I can only quote Ernst Gottlieb Baron (1727) who says in his Study of the lute: I once saw at Herr Hoffman's in Leipzig an old lute of solid copper, heavily gilded on the back with many figures etched upon it, and the top was of black ebony. But when I examined the tone, I found that this instrument sounded more like an old pot than a true lute. Whoever wishes to have a good-sounding instrument will choose good and appropriate wood. Best Jaroslaw Lipski - Original Message - From: Mustafa Umut Sarac mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? There are some people wastes 50 years to create their art designs cheapest , no need to cnc lathes and enviromentally friendly. I gave my 25 years to studying this kind of stuff. If you look to Luigi Colani , he creates whatever he wants with hot wire cut foam
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Thanks, Eugene. I am not close to anyone who owns one of those old Martin guitars, but I shall keep my eye open to see one of them. ed At 10:54 AM 10/2/2009, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: There is a very decided break between the pre-Segovia and post-Segovia guitar. After, most guitars were built to a very Spanish, post-Torres tradition. That involved European spruce (Picea abies) and, later, western red cedar (Thuja plicata) and, later still, Engelmann spruce (P. engelmannii). There are modern classical guitar builders out there to have used red spruce (P. rubens), but not on anything like a mass-production scale any more, and I'm not certain I've ever handled one. My own wedding-gig workhorse guitar is topped in Engelmann spruce. However, from the pre-Segovia classical tradition, original 19th-c. C.F. Martin Co. guitars were built for a romantic-era repertoire and gut strings, and many used red/Adirondack spruce as did several other American makes. I like them, and they aren't that uncommon. You should check one out if you find the opportunity, and especially if you find one with an owner who keeps it in gut and silver-wound silk. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com] Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 11:26 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; ' Mathias Rösel '; 'Edward Martin' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? Out of curiosity, how does Adirondack (picea rubens) stack up for nylon strung guitars? ed At 09:03 AM 10/2/2009, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: As I suspect you know, Mathias (and Ed), red spruce (Picea rubens) has been a prized tonewood in the American guitar and mandolin industry from the 19th c. on. Getting a little discussion at the vihuela list is my newly rebuilt vihuela, now topped in Lutz spruce (Picea x lutzii), which actually is a hybrid between sitka (P. sitchensis) and white (P. glauca) spruces. I am quite pleased with the result. More popular North American spruces as tonewoods have been sitka on metal-strung instruments and Engelmann (P. engelmannii) on gut-/nylon- strung ones. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mathias Rösel Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:29 AM To: Edward Martin Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com schrieb: Yes, good wood is not cheap. You mentioned spruce... I received my 11-course lute a week ago! It had an accident, and the belly had been destroyed. So, Dan Larson put a new top on it. It is spruce from New England, known as Adirondack spruce, or red spruce, or Appalacian spruce. I have never heard of Adirondack used on a lute, prior to this one. The results are beautiful! The treble is incredibly clear, singing. Yes, I read the thread with great interest. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_rubens and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood#Topwoods_.28soundboard.29 have it that picea rubens is an excellent tonewood for soundboards. European luthiers don't use it as far as I'm aware, and I won't make it over the pond,unfortunately, in the near future so as to listen to your playing. Mathias At 07:45 PM 10/1/2009, Mathias Rösel wrote: Yew for bowls e. g. is quite expensive in Old Europe as it was almost extinguished when yew was required for military bows. Good spruce is rare and not exactly cheap. Ebony for necks and fretboards still is exotic woods, rare and expensive, if I'm not mistaken. So, a good HIP lute cannot be cheap. But lutes still are cheap, compared to celli. My farthing FWIW Mathias Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl schrieb: Well, it may be possible that some people will buy such a lute, but we have to ask what is the reason for doing so. The lute is not only a device. I can only quote Ernst Gottlieb Baron (1727) who says in his Study of the lute: I once saw at Herr Hoffman's in Leipzig an old lute of solid copper, heavily gilded on the back with many figures etched upon it, and the top was of black ebony. But when I examined the tone, I found that this instrument sounded more like an old pot than a true lute. Whoever wishes to have a good-sounding instrument will choose good and appropriate wood. Best Jaroslaw Lipski - Original Message - From: Mustafa Umut Sarac mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? There are some people wastes 50 years to create their art designs cheapest , no need to cnc lathes and enviromentally
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
(think of Altos and their Baroque plastic recorders, which can be phenomenally good but they ain't wood). Molds for plastic are capable of the precision needed to churn out instruments that are acousitcally similar, making post-mold tuning unnecessary. So long as the instrument is blown by a human being, there will be a need for the hygroscopic properties of cedar in the head joint. I think it was one of the aulos alto instruments, made with a plastic plug that could be removed and replaced by a wooden plug. That was a sweet instrument. Knock out the plug, give it a bath when it gets funky, play it outdoors if you like. Wooden instruments get soggy after a while and need resting, plastic ones play far longer, but dont have quite the same sound and are prone to burble when the RH is high. the look issue is important, there have been ebony lues, but dark bowled instruments are not commonplace, and some attempt at wood-graining or the like would be necessary IMHO. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
I wonder if you could relatively inexpensively construct a lute (the bowl, at minimum) from carbon fiber (like some acoustic guitars) or molded plastic (like an Ovation guitar), and what it would sound like? Plastic was tried by EMS/Bradford (or was it cast resin?) Carbon fiber would be harder, but would share a similar problem, how do you fasten the top? I would use a rim of wood on the bowl so hide glue would have something to soak into. At times in my life I have considered employment opportunitys working on fiberglass boats, and have taken cabinetmaking positions where I worked with composites. Lots of nasty chemicals are involved with high likelyhood of liver and kidney damage, hands get sliced up by ragged edges. Noisy machines. Not fun. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
From what I can see of it, I think this lute looks great. Interestingly enough, the bowl is wood and it's the top that is carbon fiber. - Original Message - From: Bruno Fournier br...@estavel.org To: Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 10:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? I don't think you've understood the problem at hear.A It is not about the material, and BTW carbon fiber lute was done as an experiment by Charles Besnainou in France back in the 80's:A [1]http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.josephcurtinstudios .com/news/strad/apr99/images/lute.jpgimgrefurl=http://www.josephcurtin studios.com/news/strad/apr99/space_age_strad.htmusg=__nnXRBHTPt0--zhTm jlhLhba8Gf8=h=298w=160sz=9hl=frstart=1sig2=JjeFDAVdfLHqf0aclugA7Q um=1tbnid=SPLP5eWzVXY20M:tbnh=116tbnw=62prev=/images%3Fq%3Dluth%2B fibre%2Bde%2Bcarbone%2Bcharles%2Bbesnainou%26hl%3Dfr%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 ei=iAzESojYINXOlAe0q-3vDg A it's about craftsmanship and demand.A It takes a long time to make a lute, and there is no demand A Bruno On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Mark Probert [2]probe...@gmail.com wrote: Morgan wrote: mc I wonder if you could relatively inexpensively construct a lute (the bowl, mc at minimum) from carbon fiber (like some acoustic guitars) or molded plastic mc (like an Ovation guitar), and what it would sound like? mc I was wondering this exact thing myself, with more than a passing interest (my brother-in-law is a materials scientist in the carbon-fibre / fiberglass game, with manufacturing contacts all around SE Asia). There are a number of open questions, such as mold costs, but the biggest would be the soundboard. A That would need to be wood. A And then there is the look of the thing. A My other thought on doing a instrument like that would be to add a pickup and end-pin jack out of the box (think: new market). Now for the business case :) I figure the price point would need to be in the USD$600 - 800 range to make this a viable option, including case. .. mark To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/strad/apr99/images/lute.jpgimgrefurl=http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/strad/apr99/space_age_strad.htmusg=__nnXRBHTPt0--zhTmjlhLhba8Gf8=h=298w=160sz=9hl=frstart=1sig2=JjeFDAVdfLHqf0aclugA7Qum=1tbnid=SPLP5eWzVXY20M:tbnh=116tbnw=62prev=/images%3Fq%3Dluth%2Bfibre%2Bde%2Bcarbone%2Bcharles%2Bbesnainou%26hl%3Dfr%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1ei=iAzESojYINXOlAe0q-3vDg 2. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Merrill managed to pull off aluminum-backed instruments in the late 19th c: http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm Of course, they did have a wooden strip at the edge of shell for joining soundboard. I've handled guitars and Neapolitan-type (kinda) mandolins from that shop. No thank you! Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:36 PM To: morgan cornwall Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? I wonder if you could relatively inexpensively construct a lute (the bowl, at minimum) from carbon fiber (like some acoustic guitars) or molded plastic (like an Ovation guitar), and what it would sound like? Plastic was tried by EMS/Bradford (or was it cast resin?) Carbon fiber would be harder, but would share a similar problem, how do you fasten the top? I would use a rim of wood on the bowl so hide glue would have something to soak into. At times in my life I have considered employment opportunitys working on fiberglass boats, and have taken cabinetmaking positions where I worked with composites. Lots of nasty chemicals are involved with high likelyhood of liver and kidney damage, hands get sliced up by ragged edges. Noisy machines. Not fun. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:01 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Merrill managed to pull off aluminum-backed instruments in the late 19th c: http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm Of course, they did have a wooden strip at the edge of shell for joining soundboard. I've handled guitars and Neapolitan-type (kinda) mandolins from that shop. No thank you! I'm reminded of Baron's remark that he'd tried a lute with a bowl made of copper, and it sounded more like an old pot than true lute. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
While I don't think I will try and string up my pots and pans, I would probably buy a set of pots that looked like various historic lutes. Imagine the theorbo for spaghetti! I think it could be done, although maybe not in carbon fiber. - Original Message - From: [1]howard posner To: [2]Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: [3]dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us ; [4]'morgan cornwall' ; [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:01 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Merrill managed to pull off aluminum-backed instruments in the late 19th c: [6]http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm Of course, they did have a wooden strip at the edge of shell for joining soundboard. I've handled guitars and Neapolitan-type (kinda) mandolins from that shop. No thank you! I'm reminded of Baron's remark that he'd tried a lute with a bowl made of copper, and it sounded more like an old pot than true lute. -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 3. mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us 4. mailto:mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
There are some people wastes 50 years to create their art designs cheapest , no need to cnc lathes and enviromentally friendly. I gave my 25 years to studying this kind of stuff. If you look to Luigi Colani , he creates whatever he wants with hot wire cut foam. I think this is the cheapest , fastest , less complex , and using least electric technology. And no noise for home studios in the apartments Only you have to do is to create a moving hot wire inside foam. Than you fill the cut foam with polyester slowly , and seal the foam. There would be no nasty fume. You can fill the very thin foam cut with a syringe very slowly. I asked to produce a guitar with rapid production , rapid prototyping methods and it costs 3000 dollars without a neck . This is not intelligent. Hot wire FOAM CUT is the best How you will produce the back , one by one and assembling the foams together precisely and fill with epoxy. I am seriously thinking to produce Lutes with this technology. You can produce carbon composites with adding graphite carbon powder in to the polymer ! It is like using saw and a wood. Best , Mustafa Umut Sarac Istanbul -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Hmmm, an iron theorbo would probably make for a pretty good wok. Hungrily, Eugene ___ From: morgan cornwall [mailto:mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:26 PM To: howard posner; Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? While I don't think I will try and string up my pots and pans, I would probably buy a set of pots that looked like various historic lutes. Imagine the theorbo for spaghetti! I think it could be done, although maybe not in carbon fiber. - Original Message - From: [1]howard posner To: [2]Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: [3]dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us ; [4]'morgan cornwall' ; [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:01 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Merrill managed to pull off aluminum-backed instruments in the late 19th c: [6]http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm Of course, they did have a wooden strip at the edge of shell for joining soundboard. I've handled guitars and Neapolitan-type (kinda) mandolins from that shop. No thank you! I'm reminded of Baron's remark that he'd tried a lute with a bowl made of copper, and it sounded more like an old pot than true lute. -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 3. mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us 4. mailto:mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
I have the remains of a very old Hachez lute whose top had come off, and we now use it as a curious salad bowl... Alfred in Berkeley --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 2:25 PM Hmmm, an iron theorbo would probably make for a pretty good wok. Hungrily, Eugene ___ From: morgan cornwall [mailto:mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:26 PM To: howard posner; Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? While I don't think I will try and string up my pots and pans, I would probably buy a set of pots that looked like various historic lutes. Imagine the theorbo for spaghetti! I think it could be done, although maybe not in carbon fiber. - Original Message - From: [1]howard posner To: [2]Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: [3]dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us ; [4]'morgan cornwall' ; [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:01 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Merrill managed to pull off aluminum-backed instruments in the late 19th c: [6]http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm Of course, they did have a wooden strip at the edge of shell for joining soundboard. I've handled guitars and Neapolitan-type (kinda) mandolins from that shop. No thank you! I'm reminded of Baron's remark that he'd tried a lute with a bowl made of copper, and it sounded more like an old pot than true lute. -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 3. mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us 4. mailto:mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Well, it may be possible that some people will buy such a lute, but we have to ask what is the reason for doing so. The lute is not only a device. I can only quote Ernst Gottlieb Baron (1727) who says in his Study of the lute: I once saw at Herr Hoffman's in Leipzig an old lute of solid copper, heavily gilded on the back with many figures etched upon it, and the top was of black ebony. But when I examined the tone, I found that this instrument sounded more like an old pot than a true lute. Whoever wishes to have a good-sounding instrument will choose good and appropriate wood. Best Jaroslaw Lipski - Original Message - From: Mustafa Umut Sarac mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? There are some people wastes 50 years to create their art designs cheapest , no need to cnc lathes and enviromentally friendly. I gave my 25 years to studying this kind of stuff. If you look to Luigi Colani , he creates whatever he wants with hot wire cut foam. I think this is the cheapest , fastest , less complex , and using least electric technology. And no noise for home studios in the apartments Only you have to do is to create a moving hot wire inside foam. Than you fill the cut foam with polyester slowly , and seal the foam. There would be no nasty fume. You can fill the very thin foam cut with a syringe very slowly. I asked to produce a guitar with rapid production , rapid prototyping methods and it costs 3000 dollars without a neck . This is not intelligent. Hot wire FOAM CUT is the best How you will produce the back , one by one and assembling the foams together precisely and fill with epoxy. I am seriously thinking to produce Lutes with this technology. You can produce carbon composites with adding graphite carbon powder in to the polymer ! It is like using saw and a wood. Best , Mustafa Umut Sarac Istanbul -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Yew for bowls e. g. is quite expensive in Old Europe as it was almost extinguished when yew was required for military bows. Good spruce is rare and not exactly cheap. Ebony for necks and fretboards still is exotic woods, rare and expensive, if I'm not mistaken. So, a good HIP lute cannot be cheap. But lutes still are cheap, compared to celli. My farthing FWIW Mathias Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl schrieb: Well, it may be possible that some people will buy such a lute, but we have to ask what is the reason for doing so. The lute is not only a device. I can only quote Ernst Gottlieb Baron (1727) who says in his Study of the lute: I once saw at Herr Hoffman's in Leipzig an old lute of solid copper, heavily gilded on the back with many figures etched upon it, and the top was of black ebony. But when I examined the tone, I found that this instrument sounded more like an old pot than a true lute. Whoever wishes to have a good-sounding instrument will choose good and appropriate wood. Best Jaroslaw Lipski - Original Message - From: Mustafa Umut Sarac mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? There are some people wastes 50 years to create their art designs cheapest , no need to cnc lathes and enviromentally friendly. I gave my 25 years to studying this kind of stuff. If you look to Luigi Colani , he creates whatever he wants with hot wire cut foam. I think this is the cheapest , fastest , less complex , and using least electric technology. And no noise for home studios in the apartments Only you have to do is to create a moving hot wire inside foam. Than you fill the cut foam with polyester slowly , and seal the foam. There would be no nasty fume. You can fill the very thin foam cut with a syringe very slowly. I asked to produce a guitar with rapid production , rapid prototyping methods and it costs 3000 dollars without a neck . This is not intelligent. Hot wire FOAM CUT is the best How you will produce the back , one by one and assembling the foams together precisely and fill with epoxy. I am seriously thinking to produce Lutes with this technology. You can produce carbon composites with adding graphite carbon powder in to the polymer ! It is like using saw and a wood. Best , Mustafa Umut Sarac Istanbul To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
I am curious.. is it a not-so-deep Hoffman back made of bird's eye maple? if so, it is my old baroque lute. Yikes! At 04:29 PM 10/1/2009, Alfred Eberle wrote: I have the remains of a very old Hachez lute whose top had come off, and we now use it as a curious salad bowl... Alfred in Berkeley --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 2:25 PM Hmmm, an iron theorbo would probably make for a pretty good wok. Hungrily, Eugene ___ From: morgan cornwall [mailto:mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:26 PM To: howard posner; Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? While I don't think I will try and string up my pots and pans, I would probably buy a set of pots that looked like various historic lutes. Imagine the theorbo for spaghetti! I think it could be done, although maybe not in carbon fiber. - Original Message - From: [1]howard posner To: [2]Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: [3]dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us ; [4]'morgan cornwall' ; [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:01 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Merrill managed to pull off aluminum-backed instruments in the late 19th c: [6]http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm Of course, they did have a wooden strip at the edge of shell for joining soundboard. I've handled guitars and Neapolitan-type (kinda) mandolins from that shop. No thank you! I'm reminded of Baron's remark that he'd tried a lute with a bowl made of copper, and it sounded more like an old pot than true lute. -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 3. mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us 4. mailto:mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Yes, good wood is not cheap. You mentioned spruce... I received my 11-course lute a week ago! It had an accident, and the belly had been destroyed. So, Dan Larson put a new top on it. It is spruce from New England, known as Adirondack spruce, or red spruce, or Appalacian spruce. I have never heard of Adirondack used on a lute, prior to this one. The results are beautiful! The treble is incredibly clear, singing. ed At 07:45 PM 10/1/2009, Mathias Rösel wrote: Yew for bowls e. g. is quite expensive in Old Europe as it was almost extinguished when yew was required for military bows. Good spruce is rare and not exactly cheap. Ebony for necks and fretboards still is exotic woods, rare and expensive, if I'm not mistaken. So, a good HIP lute cannot be cheap. But lutes still are cheap, compared to celli. My farthing FWIW Mathias Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl schrieb: Well, it may be possible that some people will buy such a lute, but we have to ask what is the reason for doing so. The lute is not only a device. I can only quote Ernst Gottlieb Baron (1727) who says in his Study of the lute: I once saw at Herr Hoffman's in Leipzig an old lute of solid copper, heavily gilded on the back with many figures etched upon it, and the top was of black ebony. But when I examined the tone, I found that this instrument sounded more like an old pot than a true lute. Whoever wishes to have a good-sounding instrument will choose good and appropriate wood. Best Jaroslaw Lipski - Original Message - From: Mustafa Umut Sarac mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? There are some people wastes 50 years to create their art designs cheapest , no need to cnc lathes and enviromentally friendly. I gave my 25 years to studying this kind of stuff. If you look to Luigi Colani , he creates whatever he wants with hot wire cut foam. I think this is the cheapest , fastest , less complex , and using least electric technology. And no noise for home studios in the apartments Only you have to do is to create a moving hot wire inside foam. Than you fill the cut foam with polyester slowly , and seal the foam. There would be no nasty fume. You can fill the very thin foam cut with a syringe very slowly. I asked to produce a guitar with rapid production , rapid prototyping methods and it costs 3000 dollars without a neck . This is not intelligent. Hot wire FOAM CUT is the best How you will produce the back , one by one and assembling the foams together precisely and fill with epoxy. I am seriously thinking to produce Lutes with this technology. You can produce carbon composites with adding graphite carbon powder in to the polymer ! It is like using saw and a wood. Best , Mustafa Umut Sarac Istanbul To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.2/2408 - Release Date: 10/01/09 18:23:00 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Hello, A I can't believe your question.A That's the most ridiculous thinking. A With your thinking, then why are paintings so expensive? is it materials? is it labour?A A What about a Mercedes Benz versus a Hyundai made in Korea? is that labour? is that materials? is that engineering? is that quality control?A Come on man, wake up and smell the coffee.A A Yes a violin can be had cheaply, and no self respecting violinist will play ona 300$ violin.A A Its easier to make than a lute, has more market share, more demand, etc.A A Craftsmanship, difficulty in making the instrument, research in historical construction, demand, market share, etc to name a few, is what's its allA aboutA for the lute. A Pakistani lutes are cheaply made, not because they use cheap materials, which of course they do, but also because there is no craft involved.A They just glue together slabs of wood in the hope that it will be aligned, and playable.A Theu are made by poorly paid factory workers, in very uncontrolled humidity conditions, with probably no quality control whatsoever.A You can also have a very poorly made Moroccan Oud for cheap, and very expensive ones as well...even though the market for Oud's in the world ( mostly in the middle east )is certainly greater than the market for Renaissance lutes in the entire World. A Bruno Cognyl-Fournier lutenist and amateur builder... On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Seth Appel [1]seth.ap...@gmail.com wrote: A So the thread about student lutes and costs has got my brain working... A and let me state right away that by profession I am a business man and A not am musician. A Why does a lute cost as much as it does? A Is it materials? A Labor? A A price premium for know-how? A Are the Pakistani lutes cheap (in both the good and bad sense) because A they are using poor materials, or is it because the craftspeople simple A don't know how to make them better? A Could an accomplished luthier go A to Pakistan and work with them for a month and enable them to start A producing truly good lutes at the same price? A Or would this transformation take years of education and training? A I wouldn't expect the Pakistani factory to produce master peices, but, A as noted earlier, if someone can produce passable violins at $300, and A lord knows there are plenty of cheap but OK guitars around, it escapes A me why there are not cheap but OK lutes in the marketplace. A On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:18 PM, marius david cruceru A [1][2]marius.cruc...@gmail.com wrote: A A Hello, Luther, A A My suggestion is to contact mister Lorinczi. He is living in A A Romania, in Tg. Mures. A A He made my lute, A A VEnere, 8, a beautiful instrument, A A contact me to give you his email address to negociate the price. A A Would you like to have a REnnassaince Lute or a Baroque? A A Let me know if you are interested. A A best regards A A marius david cruceru A A romania A A [2][3]nedma...@aol.com wrote: A A As Chris said, don't give up Luther. A I found two very nice A instruments A A on Wayne's list at good prices (I have an instrument on order from A Dan A A Larson). A But before I found those instruments, I did a lot of A A practicing on a guitar using lute technique as best I could from some A A investigation. A Put on a light set of strings and give it a try. A I A A didn't use a capo, but you could to shorten the string length and A bring A A the pitch up g'. A This would at least get you going in a lute A direction A A until you find an affordable instrument. A A Ned A A -- A To get on or off this list see list information at A [3][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html A -- References A 1. mailto:[5]marius.cruc...@gmail.com A 2. mailto:[6]nedma...@aol.com A 3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:seth.ap...@gmail.com 2. mailto:marius.cruc...@gmail.com 3. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:marius.cruc...@gmail.com 6. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Dear Seth, All of those.. Materials, Labor, Know-how and the fact that are so few lutenists around the world. In Romania... we are just few (maximum 10) of us and the population is 23 millions Selling en-gros makes the price lower. If you buy a Pakistani lute, as mister Lorinczi said, you have to desansemble this and to rebuild it. 500 usd plus the cost to rebuild the whole thing. My lute is a piece of art! I really like it and is worth to compare with other lutes. also If you want to see lutes produced by mister lorinczi please visit my blog here Sorry for my Romanian :) http://mariuscruceru.ro/2009/05/27/instrumentul-ingerilor/ http://mariuscruceru.ro/2009/05/16/gyuri-baci/ that theorba, vihuela from this clip are made by lorinczi too http://www.shooopps.com/view.php?movieN=nota_bene the rosette is from my lute http://mariuscruceru.ro/2009/09/03/saptamina-trecuta-am-primit-lauta/ http://trezirespirituala.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/lauta-si-chitara-clasica-update/ this lutenist, Caius Hera is a Romanian, the best lutenist in the country in my humble opinion, former student of Hopkinson Smith at Schola Cantorum BAsiliensis, He is playing on Lorinczi Lutes here http://trezirespirituala.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/clipuri-din-concertul-cu-caius-hera/ Enjoy! Seth Appel wrote: So the thread about student lutes and costs has got my brain working... and let me state right away that by profession I am a business man and not am musician. Why does a lute cost as much as it does? Is it materials? Labor? A price premium for know-how? Are the Pakistani lutes cheap (in both the good and bad sense) because they are using poor materials, or is it because the craftspeople simple don't know how to make them better? Could an accomplished luthier go to Pakistan and work with them for a month and enable them to start producing truly good lutes at the same price? Or would this transformation take years of education and training? I wouldn't expect the Pakistani factory to produce master peices, but, as noted earlier, if someone can produce passable violins at $300, and lord knows there are plenty of cheap but OK guitars around, it escapes me why there are not cheap but OK lutes in the marketplace. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:18 PM, marius david cruceru [1]marius.cruc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Luther, My suggestion is to contact mister Lorinczi. He is living in Romania, in Tg. Mures. He made my lute, A VEnere, 8, a beautiful instrument, contact me to give you his email address to negociate the price. Would you like to have a REnnassaince Lute or a Baroque? Let me know if you are interested. best regards marius david cruceru romania [2]nedma...@aol.com wrote: As Chris said, don't give up Luther. I found two very nice instruments on Wayne's list at good prices (I have an instrument on order from Dan Larson). But before I found those instruments, I did a lot of practicing on a guitar using lute technique as best I could from some investigation. Put on a light set of strings and give it a try. I didn't use a capo, but you could to shorten the string length and bring the pitch up g'. This would at least get you going in a lute direction until you find an affordable instrument. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:marius.cruc...@gmail.com 2. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Because a good Lute by a master craftsman is more a work of art than the sum total of a bunch of wooden elements shaped by hand and glued together. Most who play the Lute can tell from the quality of the sound whether the Lute is the work of skill and artistry or the product of some sort of paint by the numbers operation somewhere where labor is figured in the essentials of a desperate life. In short a good Lute costs what it costs because that is what the market is. You being a business man should appreciate that, or at least understand it. My father had a saying: A thing is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. There are many Lute players that are willing to pay high prices for the kind of Lutes some builders are capable to producing. - Original Message - From: Seth Appel seth.ap...@gmail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] : Cost of a lute? So the thread about student lutes and costs has got my brain working... and let me state right away that by profession I am a business man and not am musician. Why does a lute cost as much as it does? Is it materials? Labor? A price premium for know-how? Are the Pakistani lutes cheap (in both the good and bad sense) because they are using poor materials, or is it because the craftspeople simple don't know how to make them better? Could an accomplished luthier go to Pakistan and work with them for a month and enable them to start producing truly good lutes at the same price? Or would this transformation take years of education and training? I wouldn't expect the Pakistani factory to produce master peices, but, as noted earlier, if someone can produce passable violins at $300, and lord knows there are plenty of cheap but OK guitars around, it escapes me why there are not cheap but OK lutes in the marketplace. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:18 PM, marius david cruceru [1]marius.cruc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Luther, My suggestion is to contact mister Lorinczi. He is living in Romania, in Tg. Mures. He made my lute, A VEnere, 8, a beautiful instrument, contact me to give you his email address to negociate the price. Would you like to have a REnnassaince Lute or a Baroque? Let me know if you are interested. best regards marius david cruceru romania [2]nedma...@aol.com wrote: As Chris said, don't give up Luther. I found two very nice instruments on Wayne's list at good prices (I have an instrument on order from Dan Larson). But before I found those instruments, I did a lot of practicing on a guitar using lute technique as best I could from some investigation. Put on a light set of strings and give it a try. I didn't use a capo, but you could to shorten the string length and bring the pitch up g'. This would at least get you going in a lute direction until you find an affordable instrument. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:marius.cruc...@gmail.com 2. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4471 (20090930) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4471 (20090930) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Seth wrote: SASo the thread about student lutes and costs has got my brain working... SAand let me state right away that by profession I am a business man and SAnot am musician. SA I would also think that the primary market for these instruments would be the Eastern oud market. Whilst I can't confirm it, I would think that the lutes are just ouds that are retro fitted to make lutes. If someone were to get a Pakistani factory to make proper student lutes, they would surely have the skills. Fair bet that they have never seen a western lute for real. Given one to take apart and measure, they would be able to make a pretty good copy, quite cheaply, I would think. Whether there is a Western market for such an instrument, that is the matter for a proper business case. I would suspect that there might be in certain places. .. mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
On Sep 30, 2009, at 3:18 PM, Seth Appel wrote: I am a business man and not am musician... ...it escapes me why there are not cheap but OK lutes in the marketplace. Sure, there are 300 dollar Yamaha CG's hanging on the walls of every music store in the civilized world. But that's because there's a large market for the cheap guitars among the folks who just want to try out the guitar, or try guitar lessons for their kids. Another reason why there's not much of a market for cheap lutes is that lutes are very delicate instruments and don't hold up very well under the not-so-tender ministrations of guitar players' fingernails and classical technique. No-one, as far as I know, churns out cheap lutes that can take the punishment that cheap guitars can. The lute world is all about those gorgeous paper-thin, light-as-air historical art copies, which are not really competitive in today's music business. Lutemakers don't take their instruments to the NAMM show; they go to the early-music seminar workshop venues. David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Thanks for the thoughtful and passionate responses. Apologies to Bruno! Didn't mean to upset anyone's sensibilities. Items are worth what people are willing to pay - obviously - but it's actually more complicated then that. An iphone was $700 a few years ago, and now they are $200. Are they now worth less $? No, not really. It's just that Apple Executives knew there was a group of people willing to pay triple the price in order to be the first movers and they wanted to extract these extra profits before rolling out a cheaper price for the masses. Is a grade A lute worth $5,000 or $500? For many people there worth $10,000 and for many others they are worth about $100, or even zero. Some might think there is only one point where supply equals demand and that is the cost the market produces. (In this case $3,000 to $5,000) But actually those price points are just averages. There are plenty of people willing to pay more and many others less for the same product. Airlines take advantage of this by selling the same tickets to many different people at vastly different prices through many channels. Likewise I suspect there is another price point where the supply and demand for a quality masss produced lute meets at around $500 and sooner or later someone is going to create the right product for that market. Here is a very relevant example: Japanese Shakuhachi (bamboo flutes) cost anywhere from $2,000 to $10,000. And everyone bemoaned the lack of options for the working man. And eventually someone developed a mass produced plastic version for $75 which has sold tens of thousands. Of course top level performers and purists think the plastic version is a crime against all art, but plenty of people are now happily playing shakuhachi music on their plastic cheapo copies that sound pretty good all things considered. (And who would not be playing at all without this option.) So, no offense intended, but I do think it is possible to mass produce a passable lute. It's just a matter of there being a large enough market to justify the initial start up cost. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
So the thread about student lutes and costs has got my brain working... and let me state right away that by profession I am a business man and not am musician. Then as a businessman you know enough to begin with a market survey. The mailing lists of the various lute societys are a good first indicator, and are not encouraging. Future growth might be a reasonable expectation if affordable instruments were available, but the US has been steadily decreasing the resources it devotes to k-12 music in school. I live on the eastern end of long island, one of the more affluent areas in terms of school budgets in the US; but even here the teachers here two decades ago who were possible sources for private lessons have long ago been layed off as school budgets declined. There was an opportunity two decades ago, interest in early music and lute in particular was reflected by CD bins with sections for lute music and individual lute performers in Borders books and Barnes Nobles as well as large city specialty stores like the Harvard and MIT coops. Those bins are now empty. Several enterprising luthiers have in the past considered how to improve the manufacturing process, even in the context of a one-man shop; as I have already stated, the factory approach is not appealing for the kind of craftsman who turns to luthiery (often leaving behind a more lucrative career making sawdust and kitchen cabinets). Since then there have been some technological breakthrus using computer controlled machines and lasers. The machines are expensive for an individual to make the investment, but can sometimes be hired out, and the software that programs them can be had seperately to minimize onsite setup. It needs exploration, and some funding. Lutes are not the only instruments to consider. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Hi, all, All good points, Seth, and I think another aspect is the desires of the lute builders. If one perfected the $500 lute, one would end up running a factory, not making instruments. Most lute builders, I suspect, would rather make instruments than run a factory. And conversely, as you and others say, there's not enough of a market for lutes to make it interesting to the people who aspire to run factories. On the shakuhachi example, about which I know a little: don't forget the shakuhachi mid-range, made of wood, for about $250. Also, I think the plastics are up to about $120, but who's counting? BTW, there are also shakuhachi made in Pakistan (probably the same guys): thin-walled, poorly tuned, awful tone, but people play 'em. Not to mention the American-made hippie shakuhachi of the '70's. Best, and keep the factory running, Chris. Seth Appel seth.ap...@gmail.com 9/30/2009 5:32 PM Thanks for the thoughtful and passionate responses. Apologies to Bruno! Didn't mean to upset anyone's sensibilities. Items are worth what people are willing to pay - obviously - but it's actually more complicated then that. An iphone was $700 a few years ago, and now they are $200. Are they now worth less $? No, not really. It's just that Apple Executives knew there was a group of people willing to pay triple the price in order to be the first movers and they wanted to extract these extra profits before rolling out a cheaper price for the masses. Is a grade A lute worth $5,000 or $500? For many people there worth $10,000 and for many others they are worth about $100, or even zero. Some might think there is only one point where supply equals demand and that is the cost the market produces. (In this case $3,000 to $5,000) But actually those price points are just averages. There are plenty of people willing to pay more and many others less for the same product. Airlines take advantage of this by selling the same tickets to many different people at vastly different prices through many channels. Likewise I suspect there is another price point where the supply and demand for a quality masss produced lute meets at around $500 and sooner or later someone is going to create the right product for that market. Here is a very relevant example: Japanese Shakuhachi (bamboo flutes) cost anywhere from $2,000 to $10,000. And everyone bemoaned the lack of options for the working man. And eventually someone developed a mass produced plastic version for $75 which has sold tens of thousands. Of course top level performers and purists think the plastic version is a crime against all art, but plenty of people are now happily playing shakuhachi music on their plastic cheapo copies that sound pretty good all things considered. (And who would not be playing at all without this option.) So, no offense intended, but I do think it is possible to mass produce a passable lute. It's just a matter of there being a large enough market to justify the initial start up cost. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
I wonder if you could relatively inexpensively construct a lute (the bowl, at minimum) from carbon fiber (like some acoustic guitars) or molded plastic (like an Ovation guitar), and what it would sound like? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
The did this back in the 1908s? I think these lutes were made by Ian Harwood and John Issacs. I am not sure of all the reasons why they are not still around. Nancy I wonder if you could relatively inexpensively construct a lute (the bowl, at minimum) from carbon fiber (like some acoustic guitars) or molded plastic (like an Ovation guitar), and what it would sound like? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - [2]www.nancycarlinassociates.com Representing: FROM WALES - Robin Huw Bowen, Crasdant Carreg Lafar, FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe Jez Lowe The Bad Pennies, FROM SPAIN - La Musgana and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere Lute Quartet, Paul Beier The Good Pennyworths Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [3]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 3. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Morgan wrote: mc I wonder if you could relatively inexpensively construct a lute (the bowl, mc at minimum) from carbon fiber (like some acoustic guitars) or molded plastic mc (like an Ovation guitar), and what it would sound like? mc I was wondering this exact thing myself, with more than a passing interest (my brother-in-law is a materials scientist in the carbon-fibre / fiberglass game, with manufacturing contacts all around SE Asia). There are a number of open questions, such as mold costs, but the biggest would be the soundboard. That would need to be wood. And then there is the look of the thing. My other thought on doing a instrument like that would be to add a pickup and end-pin jack out of the box (think: new market). Now for the business case :) I figure the price point would need to be in the USD$600 - 800 range to make this a viable option, including case. .. mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Carbon fiber is not exactly an inexpensive alternative. As things stand now, it still requires a pretty high level of skilled labor. Maybe in China it could be cost effective to try it, but there are other problems still, as Mark suggests (the look of the thing) in having it accepted- that is, in being able to sell it, once it's made. I don't see it happening yet. There is an important variable in the equation that makes a lot of difference when the conversation includes both guitar and lute making , which is the size of the market. If you are going to make 1,000 instruments, it may make sense to buy some expensive tools to do a lot of the work. If you are making 50, it may not make sense to buy those same tools. That is a kind of equalizing effect on the cost of instruments, which, as far as I can tell, has been the case for as long as stringed instruments have been made. Kevin On Sep 30, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Mark Probert wrote: Morgan wrote: mc I wonder if you could relatively inexpensively construct a lute (the bowl, mc at minimum) from carbon fiber (like some acoustic guitars) or molded plastic mc (like an Ovation guitar), and what it would sound like? mc I was wondering this exact thing myself, with more than a passing interest (my brother-in-law is a materials scientist in the carbon- fibre / fiberglass game, with manufacturing contacts all around SE Asia). There are a number of open questions, such as mold costs, but the biggest would be the soundboard. That would need to be wood. And then there is the look of the thing. My other thought on doing a instrument like that would be to add a pickup and end-pin jack out of the box (think: new market). Now for the business case :) I figure the price point would need to be in the USD$600 - 800 range to make this a viable option, including case. .. mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
Kevin wrote: KK Carbon fiber is not exactly an inexpensive alternative... KK requires a pretty high level of skilled labor. KK Maybe in China it could be cost effective to try it, but there are KK other problems still, as Mark suggests (the look of the thing) in KK having it accepted- that is, in being able to sell it, once it's made. KK Right. Funnily enough, I figure that the carbon fibre (or some other composite) will actually be the easy and cheap part. There is still lots of skilled work, for example in making the soundboard work well, what to use for ribbing, and so on. Far and away the biggest problem will be acceptance. The early music crowd, which includes me, will always prefer a beautiful wood instrument, hand-crafted by a professional with love and skill. And they would look askance at this kind of abomination, regardless of how well it played (think of Altos and their Baroque plastic recorders, which can be phenomenally good but they ain't wood). Ovation are a niche player in the guitar world, as are a number of other innovative-material manufacturers. The trick is to get suitable endorsements from known names. In this case, I figure that the best thing would be to try and grow a completely new market, where this kind of instrument becomes desirable. I am not convinced that is possible, though if Mr Sting is watching ;) .. mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
I don't think you've understood the problem at hear.A It is not about the material, and BTW carbon fiber lute was done as an experiment by Charles Besnainou in France back in the 80's:A [1]http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.josephcurtinstudios .com/news/strad/apr99/images/lute.jpgimgrefurl=http://www.josephcurtin studios.com/news/strad/apr99/space_age_strad.htmusg=__nnXRBHTPt0--zhTm jlhLhba8Gf8=h=298w=160sz=9hl=frstart=1sig2=JjeFDAVdfLHqf0aclugA7Q um=1tbnid=SPLP5eWzVXY20M:tbnh=116tbnw=62prev=/images%3Fq%3Dluth%2B fibre%2Bde%2Bcarbone%2Bcharles%2Bbesnainou%26hl%3Dfr%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 ei=iAzESojYINXOlAe0q-3vDg A it's about craftsmanship and demand.A It takes a long time to make a lute, and there is no demand A Bruno On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Mark Probert [2]probe...@gmail.com wrote: Morgan wrote: mc I wonder if you could relatively inexpensively construct a lute (the bowl, mc at minimum) from carbon fiber (like some acoustic guitars) or molded plastic mc (like an Ovation guitar), and what it would sound like? mc I was wondering this exact thing myself, with more than a passing interest (my brother-in-law is a materials scientist in the carbon-fibre / fiberglass game, with manufacturing contacts all around SE Asia). There are a number of open questions, such as mold costs, but the biggest would be the soundboard. A That would need to be wood. A And then there is the look of the thing. A My other thought on doing a instrument like that would be to add a pickup and end-pin jack out of the box (think: new market). Now for the business case :) I figure the price point would need to be in the USD$600 - 800 range to make this a viable option, including case. .. mark To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/strad/apr99/images/lute.jpgimgrefurl=http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/strad/apr99/space_age_strad.htmusg=__nnXRBHTPt0--zhTmjlhLhba8Gf8=h=298w=160sz=9hl=frstart=1sig2=JjeFDAVdfLHqf0aclugA7Qum=1tbnid=SPLP5eWzVXY20M:tbnh=116tbnw=62prev=/images%3Fq%3Dluth%2Bfibre%2Bde%2Bcarbone%2Bcharles%2Bbesnainou%26hl%3Dfr%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1ei=iAzESojYINXOlAe0q-3vDg 2. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
