[LUTE] Re: String tech

[John Mardinly]

   Maybe the sheep need probiotics for health of intestinal bacteria…..

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Classical Guitarist/Lutenist
   408-921-3253, [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu
   YouTube Channel:
   [2]https://www.youtube.com/user/jmardinly/videos

   On Jan 20, 2018, at 5:38 AM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

   Since gut is the intestines of a living, breathing being, it is
   certainly exposed to some environmental or dietary change.
   I am sure the key lies in the diet of the animals.
   Maybe they aren't allowed to graze any more on lush meadows so their
   gut crumbles...
   While looking for alternatives (I'm now all fishing line) I recently
   stumbled upon some obvious yet never mentioned alternative I have yet
   to try.
   People other than musicians are desperately trying to recreate a gut
   feel to their gear - tennis and badminton players!
   There are several brands of synthetic gut, though they only offer a
   narrow range of gauges - around 1mm for tennis and 0.6 for badminton.
   Mimmo, do you have insight in synthetic tennis gut? Maybe those
   manufacturers have a suitable approach for musical strings without
   knowing.
   Am 20.01.2018 um 13:13 schrieb spiffys84121:

Here's something I've been wondering for years. Haven't gut
 strings
always been made, even up until and after ww2 when nylon was
 first
used? Isn't it a continuous tradition going back to ancient
 times? Is
there a gap in our knowledge of how the strings were once made?
 Harps
for instance have always used gut strings.
Sterling
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message 
From: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche
 <[4]mperu...@aquilacorde.com>
Date: 1/20/18 1:54 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: String tech
(Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be
 interested
)
Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better:
 the only
source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727).
He wrote that  there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4
 weeks.
Well,  many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean
 those not
modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They
 are:
the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars,
 venetian
lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their
working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt.
Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string
 stop
to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello
 Bartoli
1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I
 come  to
the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had
 the same
breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2.
Instead, their lifetime was probably  longer.
Well guys, generally speaking, I agree to what  Ed wrote.
However I would like to point out that, a few years ago, I was
 very
luky to obtain by chance a few gut strings .38-.46 mm gauge
 (beef)
whose breaking index was of 310 Hz mt (!) and the lifetime around
 2
months (Lynda Sayce, Caludia Caffagni feedbacks): no vernish,
 glue or
superficial coatings were employed: they were just rectified by
uncenterless machine and then oliled.
This is what happend to me.
I am pretty sure that potentially we stringmakers can reach a
 similar
goal even with lamb gut.
Unfortunately I was not ables to do the job again:  the raw gut
 ribbons
must have some critical features that are not commonly available
 today.
In fact I was not ables to have that kind of gut again. That's
 pity.
I remember that I have done a short article on the UK lute
 society.
I have another thing to say: A. Kirker (rome 1650) wrote that the
 lute
1st strings were made from 1 unsplit lamb gut. Well, I was always
skeptical on this subject (Kirker was not a stringmaker). Well,
 a few
months ago I was ables to make a 1st string starting from a
 single thin
mongolian lamb gut and it was an amazing experience:  I polished
 the
string in gentle way by hand; the final gauge was .40, the string
 was
even on its whole length;  the breaking point was around 35
 Kg/mm2. In
practice it breaks to A note on my lute of 61 cms. The sound was
 so
beautiful. I had no time to verify the lifetime. Again: i am
 fightring
to have more of that gut buti t is not easy; the diameter of ther
 gut
do not meet the necessity for sausages so

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Well, in my experience (and those of other stringmakers of the past like one of 
the best italian stringmaker of 1930's:Berti, that wrote something in matter) 
diet, foods etc has no influence at all on the string berhaviours/quality.
At the same time has no influence the season when you do the strings. The diet 
of sheeps was a leggend  introduced by Mersenne that, incidently, was not a 
stringmaker but a gesuit just to justify the superior quality of the italian 
gut strings. 
The real 'secret' , if a secret exist,  is how you process the gut: firstly the 
sequence of the chemical treatments, then the twisting ratio,  then how you 
polish the dried strings and  for the 'x factor' that I do not like so share 
because I am working in that direction having given me the results I have 
mentioned before. However, the 'x factor' is the real explanation  even for 
Mersenne,  surely not the sheep's diet.

Tennis strings: Yes, fortunately I know how to make tennis strings because my 
teacker was, for 30 years,  a Babolat and then Savarez gut stringmakers. So I 
have the recipe to make the VS tennis gut  strings in production in 1980-2000 
years. 
However, there is nothing of different/interesting: the most important thing is 
the use of beef serosa instead of sheep gut. Nothing to say in matter of the 
chemical treatments employed that, at the end of the day,  are same of strings 
for music. Actually, the real difference is the final coating/vernishing.
Mimmo

Ps: I have problems with my keyboards  so  this is what I meant:

...Well,  many of the surviving lutes and 5 course guitars (I mean those 
that are supposed in original conditions whose original pitch standard can be 
recognized.  They are: 13 course german baroque lutes (tuned at the german 
Kamerton = 410-420 Hz,  see Baron 1727), 5 course french guitars (tuned at the 
french pitch of 390 Hz) , some renaissanche Venetian  lutes of 56-58 cms scale 
( tuned  probably at the 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch of  465 Hz about) ) has 
all their  working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt...

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Tristan von Neumann
Inviato: sabato 20 gennaio 2018 13:38
A: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech

Since gut is the intestines of a living, breathing being, it is certainly 
exposed to some environmental or dietary change.

I am sure the key lies in the diet of the animals.
Maybe they aren't allowed to graze any more on lush meadows so their gut 
crumbles...

While looking for alternatives (I'm now all fishing line) I recently stumbled 
upon some obvious yet never mentioned alternative I have yet to try.
People other than musicians are desperately trying to recreate a gut feel to 
their gear - tennis and badminton players!
There are several brands of synthetic gut, though they only offer a narrow 
range of gauges - around 1mm for tennis and 0.6 for badminton.

Mimmo, do you have insight in synthetic tennis gut? Maybe those manufacturers 
have a suitable approach for musical strings without knowing.



Am 20.01.2018 um 13:13 schrieb spiffys84121:
> Here's something I've been wondering for years. Haven't gut strings
> always been made, even up until and after ww2 when nylon was first
> used? Isn't it a continuous tradition going back to ancient times? Is
> there a gap in our knowledge of how the strings were once made? Harps
> for instance have always used gut strings.
> 
> Sterling
> 
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> 
>  Original message 
> From: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <mperu...@aquilacorde.com>
> Date: 1/20/18 1:54 AM (GMT-07:00)
> To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: String tech
> 
> (Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested
> )
> Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only
> source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727).
> He wrote that  there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks.
> Well,  many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not
> modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are:
> the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian
> lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their
> working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt.
> Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop
> to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli
> 1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come  to
> the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same
> breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2.
> Instead, their li

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Tristan von Neumann]

Since gut is the intestines of a living, breathing being, it is 
certainly exposed to some environmental or dietary change.


I am sure the key lies in the diet of the animals.
Maybe they aren't allowed to graze any more on lush meadows so their gut 
crumbles...


While looking for alternatives (I'm now all fishing line) I recently 
stumbled upon some obvious yet never mentioned alternative I have yet to 
try.
People other than musicians are desperately trying to recreate a gut 
feel to their gear - tennis and badminton players!
There are several brands of synthetic gut, though they only offer a 
narrow range of gauges - around 1mm for tennis and 0.6 for badminton.


Mimmo, do you have insight in synthetic tennis gut? Maybe those 
manufacturers have a suitable approach for musical strings without knowing.




Am 20.01.2018 um 13:13 schrieb spiffys84121:

Here's something I've been wondering for years. Haven't gut strings
always been made, even up until and after ww2 when nylon was first
used? Isn't it a continuous tradition going back to ancient times? Is
there a gap in our knowledge of how the strings were once made? Harps
for instance have always used gut strings.

Sterling

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <mperu...@aquilacorde.com>
Date: 1/20/18 1:54 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: String tech

(Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested
)
Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only
source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727).
He wrote that  there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks.
Well,  many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not
modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are:
the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian
lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their
working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt.
Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop
to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli
1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come  to
the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same
breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2.
Instead, their lifetime was probably  longer.
Well guys, generally speaking, I agree to what  Ed wrote.
However I would like to point out that, a few years ago, I was very
luky to obtain by chance a few gut strings .38-.46 mm gauge  (beef)
whose breaking index was of 310 Hz mt (!) and the lifetime around 2
months (Lynda Sayce, Caludia Caffagni feedbacks): no vernish, glue or
superficial coatings were employed: they were just rectified by
uncenterless machine and then oliled.
This is what happend to me.
I am pretty sure that potentially we stringmakers can reach a similar
goal even with lamb gut.
Unfortunately I was not ables to do the job again:  the raw gut ribbons
must have some critical features that are not commonly available today.
In fact I was not ables to have that kind of gut again. That's pity.
I remember that I have done a short article on the UK lute society.
I have another thing to say: A. Kirker (rome 1650) wrote that the lute
1st strings were made from 1 unsplit lamb gut. Well, I was always
skeptical on this subject (Kirker was not a stringmaker). Well,  a few
months ago I was ables to make a 1st string starting from a single thin
mongolian lamb gut and it was an amazing experience:  I polished the
string in gentle way by hand; the final gauge was .40, the string was
even on its whole length;  the breaking point was around 35 Kg/mm2. In
practice it breaks to A note on my lute of 61 cms. The sound was so
beautiful. I had no time to verify the lifetime. Again: i am fightring
to have more of that gut buti t is not easy; the diameter of ther gut
do not meet the necessity for sausages so for the mongolian workers  IT
IS A WASTE. Crazy.
In conclusion:  there is space for all the stringmakers to done the
job: researches and tests. Go ahead guys.
Mimmo
-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per
conto di Leonard Williams
Inviato: venerdì 19 gennaio 2018 23:25
A: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech
I play an 8-course, 59 cm lute, nominally in G (A c. 430), with 0.42 mm
treble gut from Gamut.  The strings may last a while, but fraying and
the resulting compromised tone can occur early on.  In some cases I can
turn the (unshortened) string around and avoid bad patches near the nut
or plucking zone.  I w

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[spiffys84121]

   Here's something I've been wondering for years. Haven't gut strings
   always been made, even up until and after ww2 when nylon was first
   used? Isn't it a continuous tradition going back to ancient times? Is
   there a gap in our knowledge of how the strings were once made? Harps
   for instance have always used gut strings.

   Sterling

   Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

    Original message 
   From: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <mperu...@aquilacorde.com>
   Date: 1/20/18 1:54 AM (GMT-07:00)
   To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: String tech

   (Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested
   )
   Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only
   source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727).
   He wrote that  there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks.
   Well,  many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not
   modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are:
   the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian
   lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their
   working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt.
   Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop
   to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli
   1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come  to
   the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same
   breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2.
   Instead, their lifetime was probably  longer.
   Well guys, generally speaking, I agree to what  Ed wrote.
   However I would like to point out that, a few years ago, I was very
   luky to obtain by chance a few gut strings .38-.46 mm gauge  (beef)
   whose breaking index was of 310 Hz mt (!) and the lifetime around 2
   months (Lynda Sayce, Caludia Caffagni feedbacks): no vernish, glue or
   superficial coatings were employed: they were just rectified by
   uncenterless machine and then oliled.
   This is what happend to me.
   I am pretty sure that potentially we stringmakers can reach a similar
   goal even with lamb gut.
   Unfortunately I was not ables to do the job again:  the raw gut ribbons
   must have some critical features that are not commonly available today.
   In fact I was not ables to have that kind of gut again. That's pity.
   I remember that I have done a short article on the UK lute society.
   I have another thing to say: A. Kirker (rome 1650) wrote that the lute
   1st strings were made from 1 unsplit lamb gut. Well, I was always
   skeptical on this subject (Kirker was not a stringmaker). Well,  a few
   months ago I was ables to make a 1st string starting from a single thin
   mongolian lamb gut and it was an amazing experience:  I polished the
   string in gentle way by hand; the final gauge was .40, the string was
   even on its whole length;  the breaking point was around 35 Kg/mm2. In
   practice it breaks to A note on my lute of 61 cms. The sound was so
   beautiful. I had no time to verify the lifetime. Again: i am fightring
   to have more of that gut buti t is not easy; the diameter of ther gut
   do not meet the necessity for sausages so for the mongolian workers  IT
   IS A WASTE. Crazy.
   In conclusion:  there is space for all the stringmakers to done the
   job: researches and tests. Go ahead guys.
   Mimmo
   -Messaggio originale-
   Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per
   conto di Leonard Williams
   Inviato: venerdì 19 gennaio 2018 23:25
   A: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech
   I play an 8-course, 59 cm lute, nominally in G (A c. 430), with 0.42 mm
   treble gut from Gamut.  The strings may last a while, but fraying and
   the resulting compromised tone can occur early on.  In some cases I can
   turn the (unshortened) string around and avoid bad patches near the nut
   or plucking zone.  I would, nevertheless, prefer to change strings less
   often, but I love the sound of gut!
   Thanks,
   Leonard
   > On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Edward Martin <edvihuel...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
   >
   > Hello Leonard and others,
   >
   > This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut
   strings for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a
   gut strung lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy
   glue with mixed effectiveness of making trebles last long.
   >
   > Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and
   string length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost
   important factor.
   >
   > If you want a g treble at aD0, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If
   you do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use
   a smaller diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not hel

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

(Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested )
Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only source 
I know that testifies that is Baron (1727). 
He wrote that  there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks. 
Well,  many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not modified 
whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are: the 13 course 
german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian lutes of 56-58 cms 
scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their working index ranging from 225 
to 235 Hz/mt. 

Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop to 
stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli 1678: 'a 
string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come  to the conlusion 
that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same breaking point of 
those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2. 
 Instead, their lifetime was probably  longer.
Well guys, generally speaking, I agree to what  Ed wrote.

However I would like to point out that, a few years ago, I was very luky to 
obtain by chance a few gut strings .38-.46 mm gauge  (beef) whose breaking 
index was of 310 Hz mt (!) and the lifetime around 2 months (Lynda Sayce, 
Caludia Caffagni feedbacks): no vernish, glue or superficial coatings were 
employed: they were just rectified by uncenterless machine and then oliled.  
This is what happend to me.
I am pretty sure that potentially we stringmakers can reach a similar goal even 
with lamb gut. 
Unfortunately I was not ables to do the job again:  the raw gut ribbons must 
have some critical features that are not commonly available today. In fact I 
was not ables to have that kind of gut again. That's pity.
I remember that I have done a short article on the UK lute society. 

I have another thing to say: A. Kirker (rome 1650) wrote that the lute 1st 
strings were made from 1 unsplit lamb gut. Well, I was always skeptical on this 
subject (Kirker was not a stringmaker). Well,  a few months ago I was ables to 
make a 1st string starting from a single thin mongolian lamb gut and it was an 
amazing experience:  I polished the string in gentle way by hand; the final 
gauge was .40, the string was even on its whole length;  the breaking point was 
around 35 Kg/mm2. In practice it breaks to A note on my lute of 61 cms. The 
sound was so beautiful. I had no time to verify the lifetime. Again: i am 
fightring to have more of that gut buti t is not easy; the diameter of ther gut 
do not meet the necessity for sausages so for the mongolian workers  IT IS A 
WASTE. Crazy. 
In conclusion:  there is space for all the stringmakers to done the job: 
researches and tests. Go ahead guys.
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Leonard Williams
Inviato: venerdì 19 gennaio 2018 23:25
A: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech

I play an 8-course, 59 cm lute, nominally in G (A c. 430), with 0.42 mm 
treble gut from Gamut.  The strings may last a while, but fraying and the 
resulting compromised tone can occur early on.  In some cases I can turn the 
(unshortened) string around and avoid bad patches near the nut or plucking 
zone.  I would, nevertheless, prefer to change strings less often, but I love 
the sound of gut!

Thanks,
Leonard

> On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Edward Martin <edvihuel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Leonard and others,
> 
> This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut strings 
> for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a gut strung 
> lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy glue with mixed 
> effectiveness of making trebles last long. 
> 
> Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and string 
> length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost important factor. 
> 
> If you want a g treble at a=440, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If you 
> do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use a smaller 
> diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not help either. If you want a 
> baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if you exceed 68 cm, you will experience 
> failure and short string life. We certainly can use any synthetic string, 
> nylon, carbon, nylgut, etc., but the properties of gut are that we must stay 
> in the formula or we have treble string short life. Some argue that we 
> “should” be able to string gut trebles at higher pitches than what gut is 
> capable of, but experience has shown otherwise. Although we can get a 
> synthetic treble at g = 440 at let’s say 63 cm, we cannot with gut and that 
> lute for instance should be at f, not g. 
> 
> My 67 cm. 11-course baroque lute is at f 415 at 67.5 , and a usual treble 
> lasts me 3 months. Once, I had on

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Leonard Williams]

I play an 8-course, 59 cm lute, nominally in G (A c. 430), with 0.42 mm 
treble gut from Gamut.  The strings may last a while, but fraying and the 
resulting compromised tone can occur early on.  In some cases I can turn the 
(unshortened) string around and avoid bad patches near the nut or plucking 
zone.  I would, nevertheless, prefer to change strings less often, but I love 
the sound of gut!

Thanks,
Leonard

> On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Edward Martin  wrote:
> 
> Hello Leonard and others,
> 
> This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut strings 
> for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a gut strung 
> lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy glue with mixed 
> effectiveness of making trebles last long. 
> 
> Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and string 
> length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost important factor. 
> 
> If you want a g treble at a=440, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If you 
> do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use a smaller 
> diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not help either. If you want a 
> baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if you exceed 68 cm, you will experience 
> failure and short string life. We certainly can use any synthetic string, 
> nylon, carbon, nylgut, etc., but the properties of gut are that we must stay 
> in the formula or we have treble string short life. Some argue that we 
> “should” be able to string gut trebles at higher pitches than what gut is 
> capable of, but experience has shown otherwise. Although we can get a 
> synthetic treble at g = 440 at let’s say 63 cm, we cannot with gut and that 
> lute for instance should be at f, not g. 
> 
> My 67 cm. 11-course baroque lute is at f 415 at 67.5 , and a usual treble 
> lasts me 3 months. Once, I had one that lasted 10 months with heavy playing!! 
>  On my 70.5 cm baroque lute, it only lasts a day or so unless I lower the 
> pitch to e. Then if I do that, it lasts as long as the other lute. 
> 
> So, if you have a 63 cm lute and insist on a gut treble, the pitch should be 
> f, not g at 440. Staying within the upper limits is the only way to use a gut 
> treble. Some people record in gut in that configuration, but they can stop 
> and change trebles as they fail!
> 
> Another factor is what kind of gut. Gamut now has beef gut trebles and they 
> seem much stronger than sheep gut;  some say beef is not as sweet in sound, 
> but I cannot tell the difference in appearance, sound, playability, or 
> texture. For me, beef is my personal choice. 
> 
> Ed
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 19, 2018, at 11:45 AM, Leonard Williams  wrote:
>> 
>> Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut trebles?  
>> (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers very shortly after 
>> installing one—still playable but the tone and intonation suffer.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> Leonard Williams
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Bruno Cognyl-Fournier]

   Hi Ed,
   Happy New Year old friend, all the best to you and Colleen.
   Nice to hear from you on this subject.   I like Ed have played for many
   years with gut, I have only been using nylgut in the las 4 years or so,
   only because I now have so many lutes ( and I only have 8... don't know
   how Jean-Marie Poirier manages with his 30 some lutes..), that I find
   it a bit expensive to string them all in gut.. and my supplier fo 30
   some years   (SOFRACOB) which in my opinion was the best value for your
   $, has gone out of business.   I am tempted however to go with Gamut
   for at least one of my lutes, and Ed if I recall you were supposed to
   send me some gauge calculations for the diapasons on the little Colin
   Everett archlute..
   Bruno

   2018-01-19 16:30 GMT-05:00 Edward Martin <[1]edvihuel...@gmail.com>:

 Hello Leonard and others,
 This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut
 strings for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound
 of a gut strung lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even
 crazy glue with mixed effectiveness of making trebles last long.
 Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and
 string length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost
 important factor.
 If you want a g treble at a=440, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length.
 If you do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help
 to use a smaller diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not
 help either. If you want a baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if you
 exceed 68 cm, you will experience failure and short string life. We
 certainly can use any synthetic string, nylon, carbon, nylgut, etc.,
 but the properties of gut are that we must stay in the formula or we
 have treble string short life. Some argue that we "should" be able
 to string gut trebles at higher pitches than what gut is capable of,
 but experience has shown otherwise. Although we can get a synthetic
 treble at g = 440 at let's say 63 cm, we cannot with gut and that
 lute for instance should be at f, not g.
 My 67 cm. 11-course baroque lute is at f 415 at 67.5 , and a usual
 treble lasts me 3 months. Once, I had one that lasted 10 months with
 heavy playing!!   On my 70.5 cm baroque lute, it only lasts a day or
 so unless I lower the pitch to e. Then if I do that, it lasts as
 long as the other lute.
 So, if you have a 63 cm lute and insist on a gut treble, the pitch
 should be f, not g at 440. Staying within the upper limits is the
 only way to use a gut treble. Some people record in gut in that
 configuration, but they can stop and change trebles as they fail!
 Another factor is what kind of gut. Gamut now has beef gut trebles
 and they seem much stronger than sheep gut;   some say beef is not
 as sweet in sound, but I cannot tell the difference in appearance,
 sound, playability, or texture. For me, beef is my personal choice.
 Ed
 Sent from my iPhone
 > On Jan 19, 2018, at 11:45 AM, Leonard Williams
 <[2]arc...@verizon.net> wrote:
 >
 > Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut
 trebles?   (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers
 very shortly after installing oneâstill playable but the tone and
 intonation suffer.
 >
 > Thanks!
 > Leonard Williams
 >
 >
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:arc...@verizon.net
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Edward Martin]

Hello Leonard and others,

This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut strings 
for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a gut strung lute 
tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy glue with mixed 
effectiveness of making trebles last long. 

Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and string length 
they are using. In my experience that is the utmost important factor. 

If you want a g treble at a=440, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If you do, 
you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use a smaller 
diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not help either. If you want a 
baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if you exceed 68 cm, you will experience 
failure and short string life. We certainly can use any synthetic string, 
nylon, carbon, nylgut, etc., but the properties of gut are that we must stay in 
the formula or we have treble string short life. Some argue that we “should” be 
able to string gut trebles at higher pitches than what gut is capable of, but 
experience has shown otherwise. Although we can get a synthetic treble at g = 
440 at let’s say 63 cm, we cannot with gut and that lute for instance should be 
at f, not g. 

My 67 cm. 11-course baroque lute is at f 415 at 67.5 , and a usual treble lasts 
me 3 months. Once, I had one that lasted 10 months with heavy playing!!  On my 
70.5 cm baroque lute, it only lasts a day or so unless I lower the pitch to e. 
Then if I do that, it lasts as long as the other lute. 

So, if you have a 63 cm lute and insist on a gut treble, the pitch should be f, 
not g at 440. Staying within the upper limits is the only way to use a gut 
treble. Some people record in gut in that configuration, but they can stop and 
change trebles as they fail!

Another factor is what kind of gut. Gamut now has beef gut trebles and they 
seem much stronger than sheep gut;  some say beef is not as sweet in sound, but 
I cannot tell the difference in appearance, sound, playability, or texture. For 
me, beef is my personal choice. 

Ed

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 19, 2018, at 11:45 AM, Leonard Williams  wrote:
> 
> Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut trebles?  
> (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers very shortly after 
> installing one—still playable but the tone and intonation suffer.
> 
> Thanks!
> Leonard Williams
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Leonard Williams]

Oil applied before installation?  Let it soak into the string? Glue, perhaps, 
after installation, when fraying has begun?

Leonard

> On Jan 19, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Mathias Rösel <mathias.roe...@t-online.de> 
> wrote:
> 
> Almond oil, rather.
> 
> Mathias
> 
> 
> 
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag
> von Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
> Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Januar 2018 18:50
> An: Leonard Williams
> Cc: Lute List
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: String tech
> 
>   I believe some people put a dab of glue and quickly run their fingers
>   on the string to glue the stray fibres onto the string
> 
>   2018-01-19 12:45 GMT-05:00 Leonard Williams <[1]arc...@verizon.net>:
> 
> Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut
> trebles?   (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers
> very shortly after installing oneâstill playable but the tone and
> intonation suffer.
> Thanks!
> Leonard Williams
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net
>   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Miles Dempster]

1. Hang the string from a hook or door handle, attach an object on the other 
end which weighs approximately the same as the tension when tuned up on the 
lute.

2. Take a rag or paper towel (folded up) and squeeze a bit of Crazy Glue on it.

3. Quickly pass the ‘moistened’  part of the rag down the string from the top 
to the bottom end, so as to distribute the glue to penetrate. NB Avoid getting 
your fingers stuck with the glue, if stuck then acetone will dissolve it.

4. Unattach the string and install it on the lute.

PS This method was suggested to me by Eliott Chapin.


Miles




> On Jan 19, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Mathias Rösel <mathias.roe...@t-online.de> 
> wrote:
> 
> Almond oil, rather.
> 
> Mathias
> 
> 
> 
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag
> von Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
> Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Januar 2018 18:50
> An: Leonard Williams
> Cc: Lute List
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: String tech
> 
>   I believe some people put a dab of glue and quickly run their fingers
>   on the string to glue the stray fibres onto the string
> 
>   2018-01-19 12:45 GMT-05:00 Leonard Williams <[1]arc...@verizon.net>:
> 
> Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut
> trebles?   (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers
> very shortly after installing oneâstill playable but the tone and
> intonation suffer.
> Thanks!
> Leonard Williams
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net
>   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Mathias Rösel]

Almond oil, rather.

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag
von Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Januar 2018 18:50
An: Leonard Williams
Cc: Lute List
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: String tech

   I believe some people put a dab of glue and quickly run their fingers
   on the string to glue the stray fibres onto the string

   2018-01-19 12:45 GMT-05:00 Leonard Williams <[1]arc...@verizon.net>:

 Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut
 trebles?   (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers
 very shortly after installing oneâstill playable but the tone and
 intonation suffer.
 Thanks!
 Leonard Williams
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Bruno Cognyl-Fournier]

   I believe some people put a dab of glue and quickly run their fingers
   on the string to glue the stray fibres onto the string

   2018-01-19 12:45 GMT-05:00 Leonard Williams <[1]arc...@verizon.net>:

 Has anyone come up with a technique to increase the life of gut
 trebles?   (besides switching to synthetics!) I get stray fibers
 very shortly after installing oneâstill playable but the tone and
 intonation suffer.
 Thanks!
 Leonard Williams
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Andreas Schlegel]

The breaking point of gut is around 250 Hz/m (some string makers talk  
from 240Hz/m - and Mimmo give the breaking point for his very strong  
type at around 260 Hz/m).
So a lute with 50 cm has the breaking point at 500 Hz. If you want to  
play - instead of changing strings -   you have to tune the string  
around one semitone lower.


Regards,

Andreas

Am 18.06.2008 um 22:48 schrieb Leonard Williams:

On occasion the topic of authentic pitch arises: to what  
G, e.g.,

was a lute tuned?  Thre's that old dictum of tuning the treble to just
before it breaks.  So--my question is:  What is the breaking pitch
(frequency) of gut?

Regards,
Leonard Williams

   /[ ]
   /   \
  |  *  |
  \_=_/





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Anthony Hind]

Sorry I clicked too fast before I had copied the message:

There is useful information at

http://www.aquilacorde.com/faqi.htm

However, I am not sure how to interpret the following :

Example: can I tune in A 440 a lute with a string length of 62cm?

  .62 mt (62cm) x 440 (Hz) = 272.8  Hz.mt

The answer is: no, I can't.

What should the appropriate string length be?

A safe index should not exceed the 240 value.

So:  240/440 Hz = .545 mt.

I assume this must be speaking of an A lute, and that for a G lute at  
440 Hz
g-1 is at 392Hz, the diameter of 0.42 is not relevant, the tension  
seems to be 4K (Gamut calculator).

I suppose for this string the breaking strain is .60 (mt ) x 392Hz =  
261,072 Hz
That would appear to be at the limit.

Yet my top strings have been lasting 2 months (Nick Baldock).

Have I got something wrong, here?
Anthony

Full text below:


14) What is a string's Breaking Index?
The Breaking Index is the higher frequency a gut string of any  
diameter can reach at a string length of 1mt.
For both gut and Nylgut a mean value of 260 Hz.mt is a good reference  
parameter.
In other words, a 1 meter long string - gut or Nylgut - will  
statistically always break at 260 Hz, i.e. about 'C'.
Hence we deduce that the product of the pitch of the treble and by  
the string length (more properly called 'Working Index') must always  
be below this value, under pain of immediately breaking the string at  
values over 260 or a very short playing life at values between 240  
and 260. No problems below 240.

What is its practical use?
Example: can I tune in A 440 a lute with a string length of 62cm?

  .62 mt (62cm) x 440 (Hz) = 272.8  Hz.mt

The answer is: no, I can't.

What should the appropriate string length be?

A safe index should not exceed the 240 value.

So:  240/440 Hz = .545 mt.

In practice the appropriate string lengt (at A-440) should not exceed  
54 cm.

Rule of thumb (assuming the system bridge-string-nut is free from any  
so called 'cutting effect'):

- Working index within 240: green light.
- Working index between 250 and 260: amber light (the treble could  
break in a few hours/days, especially by high humidity).
- Working index over 260: red light (the treble will break  
immediately or within minutes).
Le 19 juin 08 =E0 10:06, Andreas Schlegel a ecrit :

 The breaking point of gut is around 250 Hz/m (some string makers  
 talk from 240Hz/m - and Mimmo give the breaking point for his very  
 strong type at around 260 Hz/m).
 So a lute with 50 cm has the breaking point at 500 Hz. If you want  
 to play - instead of changing strings -   you have to tune the  
 string around one semitone lower.

 Regards,

 Andreas

 Am 18.06.2008 um 22:48 schrieb Leonard Williams:

 On occasion the topic of authentic pitch arises: to what  
 G, e.g.,
 was a lute tuned?  Thre's that old dictum of tuning the treble to  
 just
 before it breaks.  So--my question is:  What is the breaking pitch
 (frequency) of gut?

 Regards,
 Leonard Williams

/[ ]
/   \
   |  *  |
   \_=_/





 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




--

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Leonard Williams]

Andreas and Anthony--
Thanks for the reference to the Aquilacorde site.  I see he has lots
of useful bits of information there.  Now I have something else to fiddle
with besides meantone frets and tastini!

Regards,
Leonard Williams
  
   /[ ]
   /   \
  |  *  |
  \_=_/



On 6/19/08 4:43 AM, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Sorry I clicked too fast before I had copied the message:
 
 There is useful information at
 
 http://www.aquilacorde.com/faqi.htm
 
 However, I am not sure how to interpret the following :
 
 Example: can I tune in A 440 a lute with a string length of 62cm?
 
 .62 mt (62cm) x 440 (Hz) = 272.8  Hz.mt
 
 The answer is: no, I can't.
 
 What should the appropriate string length be?
 
 A safe index should not exceed the 240 value.
 
 So:  240/440 Hz = .545 mt.
 
 I assume this must be speaking of an A lute, and that for a G lute at
 440 Hz
 g-1is at 392Hz, the diameter of 0.42 is not relevant, the tension
 seems to be 4K (Gamut calculator).
 
 I suppose for this string the breaking strain is .60 (mt ) x 392Hz =
 261,072 Hz
 That would appear to be at the limit.
 
 Yet my top strings have been lasting 2 months (Nick Baldock).
 
 Have I got something wrong, here?
 Anthony
 
 Full text below:
 
 
 14) What is a string's Breaking Index?
 The Breaking Index is the higher frequency a gut string of any
 diameter can reach at a string length of 1mt.
 For both gut and Nylgut a mean value of 260 Hz.mt is a good reference
 parameter.
 In other words, a 1 meter long string - gut or Nylgut - will
 statistically always break at 260 Hz, i.e. about 'C'.
 Hence we deduce that the product of the pitch of the treble and by
 the string length (more properly called 'Working Index') must always
 be below this value, under pain of immediately breaking the string at
 values over 260 or a very short playing life at values between 240
 and 260. No problems below 240.
 
 What is its practical use?
 Example: can I tune in A 440 a lute with a string length of 62cm?
 
 .62 mt (62cm) x 440 (Hz) = 272.8  Hz.mt
 
 The answer is: no, I can't.
 
 What should the appropriate string length be?
 
 A safe index should not exceed the 240 value.
 
 So:  240/440 Hz = .545 mt.
 
 In practice the appropriate string lengt (at A-440) should not exceed
 54 cm.
 
 Rule of thumb (assuming the system bridge-string-nut is free from any
 so called 'cutting effect'):
 
 - Working index within 240: green light.
 - Working index between 250 and 260: amber light (the treble could
 break in a few hours/days, especially by high humidity).
 - Working index over 260: red light (the treble will break
 immediately or within minutes).
 Le 19 juin 08 =E0 10:06, Andreas Schlegel a ecrit :
 
 The breaking point of gut is around 250 Hz/m (some string makers
 talk from 240Hz/m - and Mimmo give the breaking point for his very
 strong type at around 260 Hz/m).
 So a lute with 50 cm has the breaking point at 500 Hz. If you want
 to play - instead of changing strings -   you have to tune the
 string around one semitone lower.
 
 Regards,
 
 Andreas
 
 Am 18.06.2008 um 22:48 schrieb Leonard Williams:
 
 On occasion the topic of authentic pitch arises: to what
 G, e.g.,
 was a lute tuned?  Thre's that old dictum of tuning the treble to
 just
 before it breaks.  So--my question is:  What is the breaking pitch
 (frequency) of gut?
 
 Regards,
 Leonard Williams
 
/[ ]
/   \
   |  *  |
   \_=_/
 
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 --