[LUTE] Re: dedillo vs. figueta
It's interesting to compare the two and thanks for putting them both against the music. Personally, I like your playing without the dedillo as the run becomes a little clearer and fits better with the nature of the rest of the piece. I'm not sure of purpose of dedillo in Milan's approach. Is it a faux plectrum? Does it help with speed or volume? Why _does_ Milan introduce or use it? For me and since I don't know its antecedents, I don't use the dedillo so much for help in speed but for a shading of character. It's quite handy on the renaissance guitar, especially for the bass runs (such as they are) in some of the dances in the LeRoy books. Most times you will want a refined sound for pavans, intabs or fantasies and for that the conventional is, no doubt, preferable. But for a bit more volume and, dare I say excitement, the dedillo trick works very well. Both parts of the bass course are strongly engaged and, while sounding somewhat rustic and loud, fit nicely in the branles near the end of book 3. No, there is no written precedent for this as far as I know in the french literature so caution is strongly advised. My reason is that organalogically and by literature, or at least to my eye, the r guitar fits in a halfway point between the lute and cittern. To offer it a few strums without a plectrum, ie, with a finger or thumb in either direction over two more courses, is not too difficult to imagine. To take in a 2nd course - or three - during those runs becomes quite simple and flows smoothly enough. Having practiced it with the guitar I introduced it to lute through Dalza. Again it seems to work - to my ear - to liven up a bass or tenor run and accentuate the downbeats. It does get more difficult having more courses below it, tho. And listening to the Milan just now I wonder if it would be so out-of-place on the triple flags of the Caldibi Castigliono. I have no idea whether Milan saw it this way either so my apologies for leaning in to this thread with my guitar nonsense. Again, caution! Sean On May 25, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Robert Barto wrote: Here are two versions of Milan's Fantasy #10. One with dedillo and one with figueta (p-i thumb under)(Fantasies 10, 11 and 12 are the introductory dedillo pieces if I understand correctly.) There is actually not that much dedillo in this piece. It seems to be an exercise for an irregular dedillo run that happens fairly often in Milan. It involves sliding the forefinger over the first two courses and then again over the 2nd and 3rd courses in the middle of the run. This runs occurs 6 times in the piece with slight variations (the first time is in measure 4). None of the other runs seem to be designed for dedillo. (The two voice sequences at the end could be done with dedillo but I see no advantage to that technically or soundwise. If anyone sees that in the Spanish text Milan says otherwise, please let me know.) [1]https://youtu.be/MZ4rItMvq1Y [2]https://youtu.be/lVVpGYoOG3M __ [3]Avast logo Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprueft. [4]www.avast.com -- References 1. https://youtu.be/MZ4rItMvq1Y 2. https://youtu.be/lVVpGYoOG3M 3. http://www.avast.com/ 4. http://www.avast.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Excellent! Can you give us any advice on how to do it? I've always wondered whether it was necessary to support the index finger with the thumb, for instance, in which case it would be like using a very fat stiff plectrum, or whether the movement is just of the index finger. Martin On 18/05/2015 23:18, Robert Barto wrote: [1]https://youtu.be/Cn6fmQXP2Pc Here is a first attempt at dedillo with one of the Milan Fantasies. __ [2]Avast logo Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprueft. [3]www.avast.com -- References 1. https://youtu.be/Cn6fmQXP2Pc 2. http://www.avast.com/ 3. http://www.avast.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Mastering the dedillo http://www.ralphmaier.com/index_files/Page318.htm http://www.ralphmaier.com/index_files/Page318.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Robert- Thanks very much for the vids; especially from the two different hand orientations- but now I hear the same problems with sound that caused me to abandon further pursuit of the technique, only your greater patience and stronger commitment have yielded better results; I like what 95% of what I hear when you do it- but so far I hate at least 50% (Back of the nail- can't get rid of that) of what I hear when I do it. Also, certain string crossings (esp. descending) annoyed me. What does that instrument sound like uncapoed? Just personal, but I prefer the lower pitched instruments- G instruments at a-415 down to E or sometimes D. Dan On 5/19/2015 2:33 PM, Robert Barto wrote: Thanks for your interest and kind responses. I'm playing on a viola da mano (60cm) by Richard Fletcher with a capo on the second fret. (I have a smaller one on order.) I have a few test videos of dedillo here: https://youtu.be/Oe0TYyR8TM4 and here from a few months ago in a more thumb out phase: https://youtu.be/6565xf2yQbA Please let me know if they are of any use and how they could be better. (I'm just using my phone camera.) --- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Hi Martin, I'm not sure how clearly one can see on the videos, but i think I mainly just move the finger leaving the last joint fairly loose. In some situations the thumb can be planted, but sometimes one has to land on the thumb to come back up, and then it has to be free. Both thumb out and thumb under have certain advantages but with thumb under angle it's possible to almost entirely avoid the nail on the back stroke. Robert --- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Thanks for your interest and kind responses. I'm playing on a viola da mano (60cm) by Richard Fletcher with a capo on the second fret. (I have a smaller one on order.) I have a few test videos of dedillo here: https://youtu.be/Oe0TYyR8TM4 and here from a few months ago in a more thumb out phase: https://youtu.be/6565xf2yQbA Please let me know if they are of any use and how they could be better. (I'm just using my phone camera.) --- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Very convincing. Just very good, period. Better than I could ever do dedillo. Can you tell us about your vihuela- or whatever your instrument is? Dan On 5/18/2015 2:18 PM, Robert Barto wrote: [1]https://youtu.be/Cn6fmQXP2Pc Here is a first attempt at dedillo with one of the Milan Fantasies. __ [2]Avast logo Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprueft. [3]www.avast.com -- References 1. https://youtu.be/Cn6fmQXP2Pc 2. http://www.avast.com/ 3. http://www.avast.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
The beginning of this clip focuses on Carlos Paredes' right hand. http://youtube.com/watch?v=gKnO_RwGhss On Nov 2, 2007, at 11:38 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote: Yes, I got your reply yesterday. Very interesting. Did you see my response? It went like this: Thanks Doc, Ah ha! So the interesting point would be where they change to and from it, how they negotiate going from a down stroke as a strong beat to an up stroke being the strong beat. On Nov 1, 2007, at 7:57 PM, Doc Rossi wrote: Hi Ed, I think I misunderstood your question earlier. They use the flesh side of the nail for the strong beat - the stroke towards the body. Doc On Oct 31, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote: On Oct 31, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Doc Rossi wrote: I've seen people play dedilho before, but never to such an advanced degree as in Portugal. Did they use the flesh side or nail side for the strong beat in Portugal? TIA Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
a site devoted to Carlos Paredes with other views of his technique: http://www.cidadevirtual.pt/cdl/carlosparedes.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
ha, did you noticed: PoD has a marker on the 7th bar! i need one too! :-) w. Original-Nachricht Datum: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:22:46 +0100 Von: Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: dedillo Zitat von Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please post the URL so I could watch this? Thank you. http://youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Zitat von Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please post the URL so I could watch this? Thank you. http://youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
On Nov 1, 2007, at 7:53 PM, Doc Rossi wrote: I think I misunderstood your question earlier. They use the flesh side of the nail for the strong beat - the stroke towards the body. Thanks Doc, Ah ha! So the interesting point would be where they change to and from it, how they negotiate going from a down stroke as a strong beat to an up stroke being the strong beat. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Oh thanks Gernot. That one. I thought you all were talking about a new one. On Nov 2, 2007, at 4:22 PM, Gernot Hilger wrote: Zitat von Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please post the URL so I could watch this? Thank you. http://youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Hi Ed, I think I misunderstood your question earlier. They use the flesh side of the nail for the strong beat - the stroke towards the body. Doc On Oct 31, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote: On Oct 31, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Doc Rossi wrote: I've seen people play dedilho before, but never to such an advanced degree as in Portugal. Did they use the flesh side or nail side for the strong beat in Portugal? TIA Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Hi Ed, I think I misunderstood your question earlier. They use the flesh side of the nail for the strong beat - the stroke towards the body. Doc On Oct 31, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote: On Oct 31, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Doc Rossi wrote: I've seen people play dedilho before, but never to such an advanced degree as in Portugal. Did they use the flesh side or nail side for the strong beat in Portugal? TIA Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
I recently watched a YouTube clip with PO'D, from some instructional TV program, where he played the Poulton #73 (Molinaro-dubious-very-fine) Fantasia with dedillo in the final show-off. I thought that was cool, as I play it differently. Let me gently suggest that you watch the video again. He is playing the tremolo with a normal thumb-index alternation. If you're not convinced, download the video and watch it with a viewer where you can go frame by frame. It's quite clear. (TubeTV + QuickTime will work on a Mac, can't help with the Redmond product.) Bob -- My lute is strung entirely in gut., said Tom sheepishly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Bob is right, different thing - Original Message - From: Robert Clair [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 12:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: dedillo I recently watched a YouTube clip with PO'D, from some instructional TV program, where he played the Poulton #73 (Molinaro-dubious-very-fine) Fantasia with dedillo in the final show-off. I thought that was cool, as I play it differently. Let me gently suggest that you watch the video again. He is playing the tremolo with a normal thumb-index alternation. If you're not convinced, download the video and watch it with a viewer where you can go frame by frame. It's quite clear. (TubeTV + QuickTime will work on a Mac, can't help with the Redmond product.) Bob -- My lute is strung entirely in gut., said Tom sheepishly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
The video looks very much like dedillo, but the sound tells us otherwise. Bass and treble are merely alternating as are the thumb and index. If it were dedillo we'd notice more than one treble note per bass note. Is the piece really attributed to Molinaro? g On 01.11.2007, at 12:41, Robert Clair wrote: I recently watched a YouTube clip with PO'D, from some instructional TV program, where he played the Poulton #73 (Molinaro-dubious-very-fine) Fantasia with dedillo in the final show-off. I thought that was cool, as I play it differently. Let me gently suggest that you watch the video again. He is playing the tremolo with a normal thumb-index alternation. If you're not convinced, download the video and watch it with a viewer where you can go frame by frame. It's quite clear. (TubeTV + QuickTime will work on a Mac, can't help with the Redmond product.) Bob -- My lute is strung entirely in gut., said Tom sheepishly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
O.K., sorry if I'm mistaken. I think I used Spinacino as key word. In the beginning he's talking to a guy on elementaries like courses, and finishes with the #73. The piece is tentatively attributed to Dowland by Poulton according to style. I think its a very fine piece, and its one of my favs. I'll check the video again tomorrow on a faster machine than the one I've got at home. I believe the finish _could_ be played using dedillo though? B.R. G. - Original Message - From: Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: dedillo The video looks very much like dedillo, but the sound tells us otherwise. Bass and treble are merely alternating as are the thumb and index. If it were dedillo we'd notice more than one treble note per bass note. Is the piece really attributed to Molinaro? g On 01.11.2007, at 12:41, Robert Clair wrote: I recently watched a YouTube clip with PO'D, from some instructional TV program, where he played the Poulton #73 (Molinaro-dubious-very-fine) Fantasia with dedillo in the final show-off. I thought that was cool, as I play it differently. Let me gently suggest that you watch the video again. He is playing the tremolo with a normal thumb-index alternation. If you're not convinced, download the video and watch it with a viewer where you can go frame by frame. It's quite clear. (TubeTV + QuickTime will work on a Mac, can't help with the Redmond product.) Bob -- My lute is strung entirely in gut., said Tom sheepishly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
PS. #73 has an identical beginning as 2 of Molinaro's fantasias. - Original Message - From: Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: dedillo The video looks very much like dedillo, but the sound tells us otherwise. Bass and treble are merely alternating as are the thumb and index. If it were dedillo we'd notice more than one treble note per bass note. Is the piece really attributed to Molinaro? g On 01.11.2007, at 12:41, Robert Clair wrote: I recently watched a YouTube clip with PO'D, from some instructional TV program, where he played the Poulton #73 (Molinaro-dubious-very-fine) Fantasia with dedillo in the final show-off. I thought that was cool, as I play it differently. Let me gently suggest that you watch the video again. He is playing the tremolo with a normal thumb-index alternation. If you're not convinced, download the video and watch it with a viewer where you can go frame by frame. It's quite clear. (TubeTV + QuickTime will work on a Mac, can't help with the Redmond product.) Bob -- My lute is strung entirely in gut., said Tom sheepishly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Really? Would you mind to tell us which ones? I've been very curious about this fantasia (I'm playing it at the moment). I have a recording by P.Odetteand it sounds a little different from Poulton's edition. Regards. 2007/11/1, G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED]: PS. #73 has an identical beginning as 2 of Molinaro's fantasias. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
PS. #73 has an identical beginning as 2 of Molinaro's fantasias. Neither remarkable nor much of a coincidence. The first three or four notes are a formula known in Italy as, if I recall correctly, the canzona francese. Pieces based on it were common--Giovanni Gabrieli was particularly fond of it. Bruno Correia wrote: I have a recording by P.Odetteand it sounds a little different from Poulton's edition. Every recording will sound different. There's one manuscript source for it, and it's a mess, so every performer has to make decisions about, for example, where rhythm signs should go. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Could someone please post the URL so I could watch this? Thank you. On Nov 1, 2007, at 6:57 AM, G. Crona wrote: I recently watched a YouTube clip with PO´D, from some instructional TV program, where he played the Poulton #73 (Molinaro-dubious-very-fine) Fantasia with dedillo in the final show-off. I thought that was cool, as I play it differently. (cf. also Cat Stevens - thumb - index - raking. You really only need two fingers, or hoofs ;~) B.R. G. - Original Message - From: John Griffiths [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 2:13 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: dedillo Hi Jocelyn, No the guitarra portuguesa is closer to a cittern in its modern form -- they still use the term viol=E3o (=vihuela in Port.) for the Spanish guitar. Even though the current instrument is of 18th-century British origin, the techniques for playing it are much older. They still play dedilho for most passage work. Check these: http://www.attambur.com/Recolhas/a_guitarra_portuguesa.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar John On 31/10/2007, at 11:45, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: John, Is the Portuguese guitar you mention the 4-course like the Renaissance guitar and the uke? Jocelyn From: John Griffiths [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 10/30/2007 8:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo My two-penneth worth is that we have two main ways of learning about dedillo from contemporary practice. One is from the variety of techniques used in vihuela/guitarra-derivatives in Latin America, such as the charango and various others. The second is the Portuguese guitar that has continued to use dedillo technique in a manner that I suspect is not far removed from the way that sixteenth-century vihuelists used it. John On 31/10/2007, at 10:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote: Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any kind of lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of the instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? And hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get the flesh of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of dedillo seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the considered upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather percussive chunk downwards with the thumb? Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and perhaps even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal charango technique). I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart. The potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced upstroke of nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same finger, back of nail only. To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article: [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited to this type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on the accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the subsequent release of the finger to its original starting point (in other words, the downstroke), the vihuelist articulates the string again, now with nail side of the finger. I don't necessarily think it needs to balance. I think the strong- weak pulse is a feature of dedillo to be exploited. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this e- mail is received in error please delete it and notify us by return e- mail. -- ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
On Oct 31, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Doc Rossi wrote: I've seen people play dedilho before, but never to such an advanced degree as in Portugal. Did they use the flesh side or nail side for the strong beat in Portugal? TIA Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
I recently watched a YouTube clip with PO´D, from some instructional TV program, where he played the Poulton #73 (Molinaro-dubious-very-fine) Fantasia with dedillo in the final show-off. I thought that was cool, as I play it differently. (cf. also Cat Stevens - thumb - index - raking. You really only need two fingers, or hoofs ;~) B.R. G. - Original Message - From: John Griffiths [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 2:13 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: dedillo Hi Jocelyn, No the guitarra portuguesa is closer to a cittern in its modern form -- they still use the term viol=E3o (=vihuela in Port.) for the Spanish guitar. Even though the current instrument is of 18th-century British origin, the techniques for playing it are much older. They still play dedilho for most passage work. Check these: http://www.attambur.com/Recolhas/a_guitarra_portuguesa.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar John On 31/10/2007, at 11:45, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: John, Is the Portuguese guitar you mention the 4-course like the Renaissance guitar and the uke? Jocelyn From: John Griffiths [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 10/30/2007 8:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo My two-penneth worth is that we have two main ways of learning about dedillo from contemporary practice. One is from the variety of techniques used in vihuela/guitarra-derivatives in Latin America, such as the charango and various others. The second is the Portuguese guitar that has continued to use dedillo technique in a manner that I suspect is not far removed from the way that sixteenth-century vihuelists used it. John On 31/10/2007, at 10:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote: Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any kind of lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of the instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? And hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get the flesh of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of dedillo seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the considered upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather percussive chunk downwards with the thumb? Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and perhaps even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal charango technique). I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart. The potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced upstroke of nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same finger, back of nail only. To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article: [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited to this type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on the accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the subsequent release of the finger to its original starting point (in other words, the downstroke), the vihuelist articulates the string again, now with nail side of the finger. I don't necessarily think it needs to balance. I think the strong- weak pulse is a feature of dedillo to be exploited. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this e- mail is received in error please delete it and notify us by return e- mail. -- ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Hi Jocelyn, No the guitarra portuguesa is closer to a cittern in its modern form -- they still use the term viol=E3o (=vihuela in Port.) for the Spanish guitar. Even though the current instrument is of 18th-century British origin, the techniques for playing it are much older. They still play dedilho for most passage work. Check these: http://www.attambur.com/Recolhas/a_guitarra_portuguesa.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar John On 31/10/2007, at 11:45, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: John, Is the Portuguese guitar you mention the 4-course like the Renaissance guitar and the uke? Jocelyn From: John Griffiths [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 10/30/2007 8:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo My two-penneth worth is that we have two main ways of learning about dedillo from contemporary practice. One is from the variety of techniques used in vihuela/guitarra-derivatives in Latin America, such as the charango and various others. The second is the Portuguese guitar that has continued to use dedillo technique in a manner that I suspect is not far removed from the way that sixteenth-century vihuelists used it. John On 31/10/2007, at 10:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote: Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any kind of lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of the instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? And hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get the flesh of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of dedillo seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the considered upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather percussive chunk downwards with the thumb? Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and perhaps even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal charango technique). I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart. The potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced upstroke of nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same finger, back of nail only. To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article: [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited to this type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on the accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the subsequent release of the finger to its original starting point (in other words, the downstroke), the vihuelist articulates the string again, now with nail side of the finger. I don't necessarily think it needs to balance. I think the strong- weak pulse is a feature of dedillo to be exploited. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this e- mail is received in error please delete it and notify us by return e- mail. -- ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this e- mail is received in error please delete it and notify us by return e- mail. --
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
I was just in Portugal for a PG conference. According to Pedro Caldeira Cabral, the PG is not a descendent of the EG but rather a parallel development of their native cittern. His large and wonderfully illustrated book includes his argument, and an article may be translated into English soon. The EG is probably of German rather than British origin, but I think trying to find the original source is futile. I've seen people play dedilho before, but never to such an advanced degree as in Portugal. I found it fascinating to watch. The octave stringing is also very important when using the thumb to play the melody and the index to play a tremolo, often on the second course. David Rutherfoord's instructions for Cittern or Guitar say index and thumb are enough. Bremner, Light and others say this technique is too limited. I guess they had never seen a real dedilho master. By the way, about long-necked lutes. I've been reading a book about the Bulgarian Tambura. The author argues that the saz and like instruments came to the Balkans from India via Bulgaria. He presents evidence of French writers from the late 18th and early 19th centuries who found such instruments in North Africa and the Middle East with names like the bulgaria. Doc Rossi On Oct 31, 2007, at 2:13 AM, John Griffiths wrote: Hi Jocelyn, No the guitarra portuguesa is closer to a cittern in its modern form -- they still use the term viol=E3o (=vihuela in Port.) for the Spanish guitar. Even though the current instrument is of 18th-century British origin, the techniques for playing it are much older. They still play dedilho for most passage work. Check these: http://www.attambur.com/Recolhas/a_guitarra_portuguesa.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar John On 31/10/2007, at 11:45, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: John, Is the Portuguese guitar you mention the 4-course like the Renaissance guitar and the uke? Jocelyn From: John Griffiths [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 10/30/2007 8:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo My two-penneth worth is that we have two main ways of learning about dedillo from contemporary practice. One is from the variety of techniques used in vihuela/guitarra-derivatives in Latin America, such as the charango and various others. The second is the Portuguese guitar that has continued to use dedillo technique in a manner that I suspect is not far removed from the way that sixteenth-century vihuelists used it. John On 31/10/2007, at 10:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote: Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any kind of lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of the instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? And hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get the flesh of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of dedillo seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the considered upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather percussive chunk downwards with the thumb? Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and perhaps even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal charango technique). I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart. The potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced upstroke of nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same finger, back of nail only. To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article: [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited to this type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on the accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the subsequent release of the finger to its original starting point (in other words, the downstroke), the vihuelist articulates the string again, now with nail side of the finger. I don't necessarily think it needs to balance. I think the strong- weak pulse is a feature of dedillo to be exploited. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is
