[LUTE] Re: ok...need some more help...

[Doc Rossi]

The scan function is very nice now.  It was pretty unwieldy a few  
years ago.


I've been so overwhelmed with work these last months (plus moving  
house yet again...) that I've been neglecting publications. I'm hoping  
for a quiet new year break where I can catch up. I haven't even got my  
own site at the moment, just myspace.  Scheesh...


I've been working on parts for my new recording project - 4-piece  
group - all in Finale.  The linked parts function is a time saver, and  
being able to churn out PDFs so quickly is very useful.  I've done tab  
for myself and notation for the others.  The graphic output is  
excellent in Finale - when I do a publication, I create TIFFs and then  
import them into Quark.  It works well.


I think if I had started on Sibelius or Score I would be a dedicated  
user, but I got an academic discount for Finale in the early 90s and  
never looked back.  The company itself isn't bad. I don't do every  
upgrade, and it would be nice to get a free-be once in a while for  
years a constant patronage, but I guess I'm dreaming there.  Whenever  
I've had a problem, though, they've been fast and helpful.


On Nov 26, 2008, at 11:35 AM, David Tayler wrote:


I think the dedicated note putters find great work arounds, but
Fronimo seems so user friendly, plus I can just read Sarge's entire
library right off the internet.
I think they all have strengths. Fronimo certainly has some problems.
I still think Score is the best, I still use it for a lot of things.
One of the things I like about Sibelius is the Scorch plugin, maybe
Finale has something similar; if so I'd love to see some samples on
the Cetra website!
I also like the transparency output of Sibelius, so I can use the
music as a decal. I'm floating it in a video right now; sort of
musical subtitles.
And of course the Neuratron works very well with Sibelius, I have not
tried the Finale equivalent for note scanning, so I can't say. It is
amazing to scan a piece of music and have it play a minute later,
with mistakes of course, but still

dt



At 01:54 AM 11/26/2008, you wrote:

Sorry to disagree, but I don't have any problems doing good work with
Finale. Fronimo was okay at first, but I've had issues with the
quality of the print out when exporting to DTP programs. Finale is
also very, very flexible - I find it much more so than Fronimo.   
There

is a big learning curve, but I've been with it for over a decade and
wouldn't trade it for anything else - and I continue checking out
other software. The time I've put in learning it has been well worth
while.


On Nov 26, 2008, at 10:27 AM, David Tayler wrote:

Just plop for fronimo; or you can use Score software with macros,  
but

the Big Packages are really crap for tab.
Inexcusable, but they are bad.
And they are bad for formal editions as well.
dt


At 01:06 AM 11/26/2008, you wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Omer katzir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

For the past few weeks I'm trying to write,tabs. becuase I'm a mac
user, i
pretty much have nothing...
I can use Finale 2009, Sibelius 5 or Guitar pro. but they all
pretty much
the same bad thing.


I'd say you have pretty much everything, and pretty much the same
best
thing, as both Finale and Sibelius are expensive packages for
professional engraving, allowing much, much tweaking. Neither was
designed with lute tablature in mind, but both are capable of  
doing a

good job, if you are willing to put in some effort. I'm on Finale,
and
after the steep learning curve it allows me all the freedom I need.
There are some basic problems to solve, like you must decide how to
notate diapassons and whether to accept Finale's proposed rhythm
signs
or find another solution like a separate rhythm staff. Rocky Mjos
makes beautiful editions of baroque guitar tablatures with  
Finale. I

know many people find Sibelius easier to learn.

If you're only interested in lute tablature, I suggest not paying  
the

next upgrade of either of the above software packages you already
have, and buying a licence for one of the lute tablature dedicated
programs like Fronimo or Django. People seem to be happy with  
those.


Of course, putting in the effort to learn Wayne Cripps' TAB has the
benefit of not paying anything.

There are forums for all of the above programs. I was on on the
Finale
forum for years and learned a lot.

David



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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[LUTE] Re: ok...need some more help...

[Doc Rossi]

Sorry to disagree, but I don't have any problems doing good work with  
Finale. Fronimo was okay at first, but I've had issues with the  
quality of the print out when exporting to DTP programs. Finale is  
also very, very flexible - I find it much more so than Fronimo.  There  
is a big learning curve, but I've been with it for over a decade and  
wouldn't trade it for anything else - and I continue checking out  
other software. The time I've put in learning it has been well worth  
while.



On Nov 26, 2008, at 10:27 AM, David Tayler wrote:


Just plop for fronimo; or you can use Score software with macros, but
the Big Packages are really crap for tab.
Inexcusable, but they are bad.
And they are bad for formal editions as well.
dt


At 01:06 AM 11/26/2008, you wrote:
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Omer katzir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:
For the past few weeks I'm trying to write,tabs. becuase I'm a mac  
user, i

pretty much have nothing...
I can use Finale 2009, Sibelius 5 or Guitar pro. but they all  
pretty much

the same bad thing.


I'd say you have pretty much everything, and pretty much the same  
best

thing, as both Finale and Sibelius are expensive packages for
professional engraving, allowing much, much tweaking. Neither was
designed with lute tablature in mind, but both are capable of doing a
good job, if you are willing to put in some effort. I'm on Finale,  
and

after the steep learning curve it allows me all the freedom I need.
There are some basic problems to solve, like you must decide how to
notate diapassons and whether to accept Finale's proposed rhythm  
signs

or find another solution like a separate rhythm staff. Rocky Mjos
makes beautiful editions of baroque guitar tablatures with Finale. I
know many people find Sibelius easier to learn.

If you're only interested in lute tablature, I suggest not paying the
next upgrade of either of the above software packages you already
have, and buying a licence for one of the lute tablature dedicated
programs like Fronimo or Django. People seem to be happy with those.

Of course, putting in the effort to learn Wayne Cripps' TAB has the
benefit of not paying anything.

There are forums for all of the above programs. I was on on the  
Finale

forum for years and learned a lot.

David



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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines

[Doc Rossi]

For PDFs, Mac OSX has a built-in Print to PDF feature that works  
well.  For Windows there are free virtual printers around that also  
work pretty well.  I remember using one that had Pony in the name  
(sorry to be so vague).


On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi,
 New to ther Lute list, and just acquired a Renaissance lute and had  
a wonderful lesson with

Ed Martin last Thursday.
 I have been typesetting and transcribing music in Finale since 2000.
I just acquired and registered Fronimo last night.
 What I am seeing in this thread are pleas for BOTH standardization  
AND maleability,

and I totally understand the need for both.
 With many high end graphics and typesetting / notation programs,  
the developers do their
best to keep their file types proprietary.  This allows them to earn  
a living from selling their
programs.  The down-side is that is limits the ability of the user  
to share files with
colleagues, unless their colleagues have also bought the same  
expensive program.  Add to
this that if I haven't "upgraded" (i.e. sent another ton of money to  
the developer) my Finale
program, I won't be able to open files from a colleague who has and  
sends me their newer

version.  It's a frustrating racket that thwarts maleability.
 I would like to see more cooperation amongst developers in this  
regard.  I realize that for
somebody writing a notation program in their spare time this could  
be a time consuming
thing (nightmare?), but wouldn't it be nice if one could "import",  
for example, a Fronimo file
into Finale, or vice versa?  Or at least be able to change the  
formatting of a file to suit your
taste without having to start entering every character from the  
beginning?
 One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a  
MIDI file and it will notate it
automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting  
from scratch).

 This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo.
 Finale probably wouldn't even talk to Francesco, but perhaps other  
Lute Tablature

developers could work together on sharing file types?
 All that said, the best way to share printed music on the web that  
I have found so far is
PDF.  PDFs are not alterable, but they sure are handy.   
Unfortunately, to MAKE PDFs it
usually requires that one has bought the full version of Adobe  
Acrobat (not cheap), which
incorporates a "printer" called the "Acrobat Distiller".  One must  
use this feature in order to
embed fonts like Fronimo Pavan, that other users may not have in  
their computers.
Otherwise the end user sees gobbletygook.  (I actually got Spiders  
once!) One can make
scans into PDFs also (I do this by importing the scanned image into  
a graphics program like
CorelDraw, then printing to the Distiller), but to get good  
resolution the scan needs to be at
least 300 - 400 dpi and the Distiller PDF settings should be 1200  
dpi.  Otherwise the end

user cannot enlarge it for their older eyes without it being blurry.
 Anyway, I think whatever software develpoers could do to allow  
their users to share files

would be a benefit.
Tom
Tom Draughon
Heartistry Music
http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
714  9th Avenue West
Ashland, WI  54806
715-682-9362

On 8 Dec 2008 at 9:50, howard posner wrote:

On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote:



See Feynman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY



Fascinating, captain.  A prominent scientist offering two minutes of
meaningless generalities without a single fact.  Completely  
illogical.


Yours truly.

Mr. Spock
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12/3/2008 9:34 AM





Tom Draughon
Heartistry Music
http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html
714  9th Avenue West
Ashland, WI  54806
715-682-9362

[LUTE] Green Sleeves

[Doc Rossi]

A friend of mine is looking at different versions of Green Sleeves and  
has asked me if I can help with dating early versions.  I can't, but  
maybe someone here can.  He had thought that the William Ballet Lute  
MS version was the earliest written one.  It was compiled between  
1595-1610.  Does John Johnson's version for two lutes predate Ballet?


Thanks,

Doc Rossi



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[LUTE] Re: Green Sleeves

[Doc Rossi]

   Anone with further information could reply to Brad directly.  Thanks in
   advance.

   Begin forwarded message:

   From: Brad McEwen <[1]mill_r...@yahoo.com>
   Date: January 22, 2009 9:07:28 PM CEST
   To: Doc Rossi <[2]ro...@cetrapublishing.com>
   Subject: Re: Fwd: [LUTE] Re: Green Sleeves
   Reply-To: [3]mill_r...@yahoo.com

   Doc:

   Perhaps you could forward this to the lute group as well.

   I would invite anyone who can help me with this to contact me directly.

   I am basing my belief that Johnson wrote a duet for lutes on the sleeve
   notes of an LP by Jakob Lindberg and Paul O-Dette called English Lute
   Duets from about 1984.

   On the back cover of the LP (and CD booklet), it is attributed to
   Johnson, but in the sleeve notes, they say ""it is possible that
   Sellingers Round and Greensleeves were also written by Johnson.They
   (the lute duets) date from the same decade as Johnson's duets and their
   basic compositional style, as well as the idiomatic use of the lute,
   seem very similar to the known duets of Johnson.".

   They don't state which MS this lute duet comes from!

   The same basic version is used on a CD by Estampie entitled Unde the
   Greenwood Tree.  This time this is for solo lute and, again, the source
   is not stated!!!

   The same basic version was later used by William Cobbold and arranged
   for four voices.

   I just want to know if the MS that this version comes from could be as
   old or older than the Wm Ballet version, which is the only one that
   most people are aware of.

   Does anyone know Jakob Lindberg or Paul O'Dette?  Could we ask them?
   Would they remember?

   Brad

   --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Doc Rossi <[4]ro...@cetrapublishing.com> wrote:

 From: Doc Rossi <[5]ro...@cetrapublishing.com>
 Subject: Fwd: [LUTE] Re: Green Sleeves
 To: "Brad McEwen" <[6]mill_r...@yahoo.com>
 Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 1:47 PM

   Begin forwarded message:

   From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[7]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
   Date: January 20, 2009 10:43:47 PM CEST
   To: "lute" <[8]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Green Sleeves

   Oooops, correction : I meant the lute duet in the Folger "Dowland" ms
   (Ms 1610.1) fDEG 5 and not the Pickering... It's getting late here in
   France ! Time to get some sleep ;-) !
   Jean-Marie
   === 20-01-2009 22:28:12 ===

 Oh, I forgot the little lute duet in the Pickering Lute Book... It
 is not attributed to Johnson either and the date of this manuscript
 is around 1615, if I remember well.

 Jean-Marie

 === 20-01-2009 16:53:03 ===

 A friend of mine is looking at different versions of Green Sleeves
 and

 has asked me if I can help with dating early versions.  I can't, but

 maybe someone here can.  He had thought that the William Ballet Lute

 MS version was the earliest written one.  It was compiled between

 1595-1610.  Does John Johnson's version for two lutes predate
 Ballet?

 Thanks,

 Doc Rossi

 To get on or off this list see list information at

 [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 
 ---

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 mail.

 Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.

 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

 [10]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr

 [11]http://poirierjm.free.fr

 20-01-2009

 
 ---

 Orange vous informe que cet  e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus
 mail.

 Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.

   = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
   [12]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
   [13]http://poirierjm.free.fr
   20-01-2009
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References

   1. mailto:mill_r...@yahoo.com
   2. mailto:ro...@cetrapublishing.com
   3. mailto:mill_r...@yahoo.com
   4. mailto:ro...@cetrapublishing.com
   5. mailto:ro...@cetrapublishing.com
   6. mailto:mill_r...@yahoo.com
   7. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
   8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  10. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
  11. http://poirierjm.free.fr/
  12. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
  13. http://poirierjm.free.fr/

[LUTE] Carlo Cecconi

[Doc Rossi]

Has anyone got Carlo Cecconi's telephone numbers? I can't find them...

Thanks,

Doc Rossi



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[LUTE] Re: Lute recordings in meantone

[Doc Rossi]

In relation to the tuning question, how common was the use of a capo?  
Haven't they been in use since the 17th century?


doc

On May 23, 2009, at 8:51 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:


On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Rob MacKillop
 wrote:
  There may be one or two of you interested in the banjo c. 
1860-1900 (as
  I am). There was a period of squabbles and unrest as players  
moved from
  fretless instruments to fretted ones. Many of the old (fretless)  
guys

  complained that the new frets forced you to play out of tune. Some
  makers responded by manufacturing instruments with split frets,  
as in

  this photo:


For electrical guitars you can get something called, what _is_ it
called acutally?, 'wiggly' frets, a set of unequal and bend frets to
get the thirds in the most common chords (you need three for the
average pop song, right?) better in tune. I don't think I want to hear
F-minor on such an instrument.

David
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[LUTE] Re: Apple Tuning Applet

[Doc Rossi]

Hey Gordon,

Is this what you're talking about?

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/audio/chromatictuner.html

Doc

On Jun 14, 2009, at 1:37 PM, Gordon Gregory wrote:


  Hi,


  Either my computer or I have lost the interesting post on the Apple
  tuning application that appeared a day or so ago. It looks like it
  could be a useful alternative to the Korg OT120 tuner.


  Two questions:

  .Has any one used it? How did it perform?

  .Does anyone know of a contact mike similar to the Korg one
  that uses a 3.5mm jack?


  I would want a contact mike to help tuning in noisy places.


  Thanks, Gordon


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[LUTE] student lute needed

[Doc Rossi]

A friend of mine near Geneva is looking for a student-level lute to  
accompany her singing. Please drop me a line if you have something  
available.


Doc Rossi



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[LUTE] pacoloni on youtube

[Doc Rossi]

The Bacheler Consort plays Pacoloni :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJa0byWuhpU



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[LUTE] Re: pacoloni on youtube

[Doc Rossi]

Hey Stuart -  Thanks.  As Sean has pointed out, the cittern part was  
made by Viaera, published in the same year as the lute parts, if I'm  
not mistaken.


Doc

On Aug 27, 2009, at 5:50 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote:




The Bacheler Consort plays Pacoloni :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJa0byWuhpU


Very stylish playing. Is the cittern part derived from a lute part?



Stuart




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[LUTE] Re: pacoloni on youtube

[Doc Rossi]

Thanks, Sean!

On Aug 28, 2009, at 1:50 AM, Sean Smith wrote:



From http://tinyurl.com/nxmee2

NOVA ET ELEGANTISSIMA
IN CYTHARA LUDENDA CARMINA QUAE
VIDELICET IN SOLA CYTHARA VEL ETIAM CUM
tribus Testudinibus exhibita, mira dulcedina auiditorum possunt
oblectare, eaque omnia facilitate quam fieri potuit
summa in tyronum usum composita.
Et Primo quidem libro Passomezi, Padoani, Saltarelli, ad Joannis  
Pacoloni tabulaturas
(ut vocant) trium Testudinum, apprime congruentes, ut etiam sola  
Cythara ex

hibendi. Deinde etiam Alemandae Branles & similia. Et Secondo quidem
libro habes Cantiones Musicales quantum Cythara rei admittit
Musicae habes & iam non minus jucundas.
AUTORE FREDERICO VIAERA FRISIO.
[Fleuret]
LOVANII.
Apud Petrum Phalesium Bibliopol. Jurat. Anno 1564.
Cum Gratia & Privilegio.

Contains cittern accompaniment to the Pacaloni followed by cittern  
solos.


s




On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:50 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote:




The Bacheler Consort plays Pacoloni :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJa0byWuhpU


Very stylish playing. Is the cittern part derived from a lute part?



Stuart




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[LUTE] my space

[Doc Rossi]

It's still quite simple, but I have a page on My Space which includes  
a sneak preview of the new CD:


http://www.myspace.com/docrossi

Doc



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[LUTE] Re: true amateurs

[Doc Rossi]

I'm on Mac and I got to hear them using a link someone sent yesterday  
or the day before - not very helpful, I know, but the message said  
something like "this link should work." It went straight to an MP3  
file played with the QuickTime plugin in Safari.  I'm sorry I can't  
give you a better indication - I cleaned up my mailboxes last night.


On Feb 28, 2008, at 2:04 PM, Daniel Shoskes wrote:


Same for me. A Mac hostile site!

Mathias and Thomas, if you want to email me the files using  
something like sendit, I could host them for a time on my ftp site  
to allow the lute Mac world to download them.


Danny














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[LUTE] Re: Amateur recordings

[Doc Rossi]

Beautiful sound, Valéry! What exactly are you using?

On Feb 29, 2008, at 9:26 AM, Valéry Sauvage wrote:


Hello,

Back on this list...
I'd like to present some recordings I made with my brand new zoom  
h2...

(nice machine !)
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/luthval/musiques/packington.mp3
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/luthval/musiques/what-if-a-day.mp3

For those watching my videos on Youtube, now I'll record again with  
this

sound quality (as the existing ones are very poor sound recorded I'm
afraid... So I'll delete the old ones soon...

Valéry ;-)





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[LUTE] Re: Amateur recordings

[Doc Rossi]

http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1916


On Feb 29, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:


Dear Valéry,

Excellent!  Good to see you on this list again - there are now so  
many of us with the Zoom H2 we should share our experiences with  
this machine.  Which settings did you use?  What was the recording  
distance?
Wonderful to hear you play with the better sound quality than on  
Youtube.


Best wishes,

Martin

Valéry Sauvage wrote:


Hello,

Back on this list...
I'd like to present some recordings I made with my brand new zoom  
h2...

(nice machine !)
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/luthval/musiques/packington.mp3
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/luthval/musiques/what-if-a-day.mp3

For those watching my videos on Youtube, now I'll record again with  
this

sound quality (as the existing ones are very poor sound recorded I'm
afraid... So I'll delete the old ones soon...

Valéry ;-)





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[LUTE] Re: larger theorbos

[Doc Rossi]

sorry - i thought it was bach's birthday, not april first...

On Mar 21, 2008, at 10:46 AM, David Tayler wrote:


People have been asking if I also play these larger Theorbos,
So I have a picture of the largest one.

http://www.voicesofmusic.org/klaus%20theorbo.html


At a length of 1400 centimeters (48 feet or so) it is basically
all-reentrant., or subentrant.
Currently strung in boat catline, from the pirate wreck that had the
dulcian on board.
The original rose was taken intact from a wooden cathedral in
Grenouille, France, famous also for the "Fourth Bear."

There is also the tiorbinunculus at the bottom, only a few
centimeters long, a precise 1/50th scale of the larger one, used once
in the recording of Telemann's
"Gulliver's Travels." The tiorbinunculus is of course exactly the
size that it appears in the Praetorius book in that it will fit
easily on one page.

Note that these measurements, like the new Talbot interpretations,
are of the whole body, not just the string length,
which allows the lowest notes to be above the audible threshhold of  
20Hz.

Takes a bit of getting used to.
dt




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[LUTE] plucked bass

[Doc Rossi]

I'm working on a project involving mid-18th-century dance music mostly  
from France, Belgium and Austria. I'd like to have a non-keyboard  
plucked instrument in the bass. What are my options besides theorbo,  
archlute, harp? Mandora and Colascione come to mind - is there  
anything else?


Thank you,

Doc



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[LUTE] Re: plucked bass

[Doc Rossi]

I thought of viol - that was actually my first choice after bassoon -  
but I'm wondering about bass instruments that I don't know about.  The  
little cittern is too small for bass, but I've been lusting after a  
Tielke myself for a very long time.  Baroque guitar and chitarra  
battente also came to mind, of course, and I will probably play those  
myself when I don't play a cittern.  Are there other variants? I know  
about the Portuguese and Mexican regional guitars.



On Mar 24, 2008, at 12:47 PM, David Tayler wrote:

Also, good look finding one, but it seems a nice place to try out  
the cithrinchen which became folkified as the Thüringer Waldzither  
in some of the areas you describe

mid 18th c. I've always wanted a Tielke knock off.
I assume you've looked into guitar variants as well.
dt

At 03:06 AM 3/24/2008, you wrote:
I'm working on a project involving mid-18th-century dance music  
mostly

from France, Belgium and Austria. I'd like to have a non-keyboard
plucked instrument in the bass. What are my options besides theorbo,
archlute, harp? Mandora and Colascione come to mind - is there
anything else?

Thank you,

Doc



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[LUTE] Re: plucked bass

[Doc Rossi]

I've thought of French arch-citterns and double-neck citterns, too.

What I'd really like is bandora... Perhaps there was a bass cittern,  
like the one in the painting by Saftleven.


On Mar 24, 2008, at 12:47 PM, David Tayler wrote:

> Also, good look finding one, but it seems a nice place to try out  
> the cithrinchen which became folkified as the Thuringer Waldzither  
> in some of the areas you describe
> mid 18th c. I've always wanted a Tielke knock off.
> I assume you've looked into guitar variants as well.
> dt
>
> At 03:06 AM 3/24/2008, you wrote:
>> I'm working on a project involving mid-18th-century dance music  
>> mostly
>> from France, Belgium and Austria. I'd like to have a non-keyboard
>> plucked instrument in the bass. What are my options besides theorbo,
>> archlute, harp? Mandora and Colascione come to mind - is there
>> anything else?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Doc
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>


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[LUTE] Re: plucked bass

[Doc Rossi]

Thanks, Eugene - I'd thought of these, too. Maybe I'm looking for  
something that doesn't exist.



On Mar 24, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:


At 06:06 AM 3/24/2008, Doc Rossi wrote:
I'm working on a project involving mid-18th-century dance music  
mostly

from France, Belgium and Austria. I'd like to have a non-keyboard
plucked instrument in the bass. What are my options besides theorbo,
archlute, harp? Mandora and Colascione come to mind - is there
anything else?


How about the so-called "theorboed" or "archi" guitars from France  
in the

latter half of the 1700s, like the Deleplanque or Fievez on this page
<http://harpguitars.net/history/makers.htm>?  I assume you also know  
of the
weird "harp-guitars" by Edward Light of the very late 18th c. that  
were

nothing at all like modern notions of guitar but were tuned like the
English guittar with some added diatonic sub-bass strings on a truly
bizarre soundbox.  I don't know that it would be at home with your  
proposed
repertoire, but I mention it because your are known to be a fine  
player in

that tuning.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: I can't remain silent any longer....!!.....

[Doc Rossi]

On Mar 25, 2008, at 3:03 PM, Paavo R. Zakin, M.D. wrote:

> the late Julian Bream,

His house is for sale, but I hadn't heard that he'd died.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/main.jhtml?xml=/property/2007/09/22/pbream122.xml

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[LUTE] Re: my new theorbo! - pics and sound file

[Doc Rossi]

I agree with you completely, Rob - Malcolm is really a n excellent  
luthier. The diatonic cittern he made for me is going from strength to  
strength - really coming alive after a year of playing.


Doc Rossi

On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:10 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:

I brought this home on Tuesday from Malcolm Prior's workshop - a  
stunning

theorbo in A, 85cms string length.

I've uploaded a photographic history of its construction, and an mp3  
file of
Piccinini's Corrente Prima - a slower than I would have liked  
performance,
but I think (hope) you will forgive me! These are difficult  
instruments to

get around on, and I haven't had much time:
http://www.rmguitar.info/theorbo.htm

This was my first commission for Malcolm Prior, but it certainly  
won't be my
last. He had a 10c ready for shipping to Germany which I fell head  
over
heels in love with. Malcolm has had an on/off/on/off building career  
these
last few years as he twice became a father, but he is now very much  
back
into building lutes, and by all accounts better than ever. I think  
he has
reached the top rank of luthiers. He is currently updating his  
website, but
it is already well worth a visit. Excuse my gushing - I am not on  
commission

- honest!

Rob MacKillop
www.rmguitar.info

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[LUTE] OT " Mac OS 9 Help

[Doc Rossi]

Sorry to intrude like this - if anyone has time to answer a Mac OS 9  
question for me, please contact me ASAP off list.


Thanks



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[LUTE] Re: OT " Mac OS 9 Help

[Doc Rossi]

thanks to all who replied - problem solved

On Apr 1, 2008, at 5:27 PM, Bruno Fournier wrote:

> What's the question ?  I may be able to answer you, although I have  
> not used OS 9 in a while.
>
> Bruno
>
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Doc Rossi  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sorry to intrude like this - if anyone has time to answer a Mac OS 9
> question for me, please contact me ASAP off list.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
> -- 
> Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
> Luthiste, etc
> Estavel
> Ensemble de musique ancienne
> www.estavel.org


--

[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms

[Doc Rossi]

On Apr 3, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Anthony Hind wrote:


Rob
Sorry, I can't quite leave-off, you got me thinking too much. Of
course, like everyone else, I can't help thinking about what lute I
would like next, but also, how I wish I was a little more focussed
and less dilettante (imore in the French use of this word (i.e. going
where momentary pleasure takes me, rather than concentrating on one
period and a few pieces at a time) which makes me the complete
amateur that I am.


I can really sympathize with this. I've concentrated on one period and  
one instrument for years, and the danger in that is, for the average  
listener, a lot of the music sounds the same, and stylistically, it  
is.  I've been working on Renaissance cittern lately to add more  
variety to my concerts, and keeping the two techniques up to standard  
is a lot of work.


I would have at least 6 different citterns if I could, but I seriously  
doubt whether I could keep the different techniques up to the  
necessary level.  This is one of the reasons I play transcriptions -  
it's a compromise, but it seems to be a necessary one for the type of  
work I get, and to get more work - pleasing the general listener as  
well as the more educated one.


Doc



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[LUTE] Re: Memorization

[Doc Rossi]

On Apr 4, 2008, at 4:24 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:


If you really had to memorise a piece, for example, because
you were going to perform it on stage in a play, you'd find a way to
memorise it.


Boy, if that were only true! It's exactly the pieces that I perform  
that I'm concerned about.


I did think about tablature, although I still do a fair amount of  
arranging - that is, working out the fingering - as most of what I  
play is in notation which I then tab out.




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[LUTE] Re: Aarrrgghhhh!!!

[Doc Rossi]

Completely bizarre.

Interesting that Scottish lute is "making a comeback" according to the  
article.  I was in London last weekend and friends in the record  
business told me that sales of traditional Irish and Scottish CDs are  
falling and have been for some time.



On Apr 16, 2008, at 11:28 PM, Rob MacKillop wrote:


This page left me speechless:
http://www.kiltmagazine.com/KiltMagMusic0305.html - does anyone know  
this

guy? He even 'quotes' me - I said no such thing. And it's good to have
confirmation that Dowland was in fact born in Dublin! - something I've
always hoped for. I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

Rob MacKillop
www.rmguitar.info

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[LUTE] Re: Reportage (was Re: Aarrrgghhhh!!!)

[Doc Rossi]

second

On Apr 18, 2008, at 11:35 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:

Dear all, I think my original Subject line of 'Aarrrgg!!!' still  
holds!


Rob


On 18/04/2008, gary digman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



"former Vice Presidents who claim to have invented the Internet  
and be
the Fount of All Knowledge regarding global warming come  
immediately to

mind."

Isn't this an example of the type of misconsturing of facts that is  
being
discussed? The fact is Gore never claimed to have invented the  
internet and
he never claimed to be the font of "all" know;edge regarding global  
warming.


Gary


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[LUTE] Re: look at me!

[Doc Rossi]

Nice one, Andy!

On May 4, 2008, at 10:45 PM, Andrew Rutherford wrote:


Hi citterners,

If you type "English Guittar" on Youtube you can see me playing "Up  
We't Eli
Eli" from the Bremner book on my Eng. Guit.  (Thanks Rob McK for the  
music).


andy rutherford

PS Does anybody know what "Up We't Eli Eli" means?  Or "Diddy Wah  
Diddy"?
And don't say, "If you have to ask, there's no point trying to  
explain".


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[LUTE] Re: look at me!

[Doc Rossi]

On May 5, 2008, at 9:05 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:


I'm the only one allowed to play this instrument!
How dare you!


Merde! I don't remember you ever giving me permission to play this  
instrument. What can I do now???




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[LUTE] Re: Bad news

[Doc Rossi]

Thanks a lot, Stewart.  I'll pass your sympathies on to Roberto.

On May 5, 2008, at 4:41 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:


Dear Doc,

I'm very sorry to hear your bad news. Breaking into one's property  
is a
serious violation, and it will dwell on Roberto's mind for a long  
time.

Smashing your cittern was a particularly vindictive and spiteful thing
for the thief to do. Please convey our sympathy to Roberto. I hope he
can soon get his life back to normal.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: Doc Rossi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 05 May 2008 11:27
To: Cittern List
Subject: [CITTERN] bad news

Dear Cittern Friends,

I've just had some terrible news from a luthier friend in Rome,
Roberto Gabrielli. He was putting the finishing touches on a new
cittern for me - a copy of the the Gibson of Dublin. He arrived home
last night to find that his workshop had been broken into, and not
being able to break into his house from there, most of Rob's tools
were stolen and the culprit took revenge on the cittern - it was found
in the garden completely destroyed. He hasn't found the neck yet.
Fortunately, so he tells me, he hadn't mounted the tuners yet - that
is really all that's left of it. An instrument that he was restoring
was also missing

I was just about to go to Rome to collect the cittern - I've been
looking forward to it for more than a year. I feel terrible - but not
nearly as badly as Rob is feeling now. He really has to start from
scratch, and not just on my cittern.

Thanks for listening,

Doc



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[LUTE] Re: tielke site

[Doc Rossi]

prego

On May 17, 2008, at 7:41 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:

> Wonderful. Great research. Great images. A great use of the internet.
>
> Thanks for directing us to it.
>
> Rob
>
> 2008/5/17 Doc Rossi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> It isn't ready yet, but this looks like it's going to be very nice:
>
> http://www.tielke-hamburg.de/
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


--

[LUTE] Re: first video

[Doc Rossi]

That's excellent, Rob.  What a pleasure to hear you play again.  The  
last time was in Evora!  (Nice house, too, by the way.)


On May 25, 2008, at 6:36 PM, Rob MacKillop wrote:

I've added four videos - one lute, three baroque guitar - to the  
vimeo site.
This is my first attempt at making a video - not something I enjoyed  
too
much! My first take - the sound was terrible, so I set the computer  
up and

recorded with a mic in to the laptop at the same time as recording the
video. Then in Windows Movie Maker I had to take out the audio from  
the
video and install and line up the mp3 track which I had boosted the  
volume
of and added a tiny bit of reverb. It sounded ok. Then I uploaded  
the lot to
vimeo and also to the lute and baroque guitar networks. The uploads  
did not
go so well. One of the videos would not upload. The others did, but  
not the
little picture for the video icon for clicking on...The sound is a  
little
weird too...not what I heard on my computer before upload...And I  
should
mention there was 20 minutes of my performance which did not get  
recorded -
I never noticed the video tape had run out...Geez, I need to go for  
a long

walk!

Still, I hope you get something from these efforts. Was it worth it?
Probably not! Go to www.vimeo.com and search for MacKillop.

Rob MacKillop
PS Excuse the cross posting...

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[LUTE] Re: strumming

[Doc Rossi]

Thanks very much for the lesson, Rob. Great stuff.

On May 29, 2008, at 4:13 PM, Rob MacKillop wrote:


Somone asked me about my strumming techniques so I've added a video on
strumming the baroque guitar here:

http://www.vimeo.com/robmackillop/videos

It's more MacKillop than Corbetta, but you might get something out  
of it.

Not sure about doing it on the lute, though!

Rob

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[LUTE] Re: medieval plectrum, how to make?

[Doc Rossi]

Do you put anything between the quill and the iron? What temperature  
do you use>


On Jun 6, 2008, at 7:45 AM, David Tayler wrote:


I take the quill and iron it with a heavy iron, then shape it.
I prefer a slightly rounded tip.

It's the only thing I iron, really.

You can also cut a piece of delrin and glue it to the feather, in
that case, you need not iron it.
It is sort of permanent press.

There are a number of other materials you can use, including thin
strips of polished wood.
A matchbook cover sounds terrible.
dt

At 01:13 PM 6/5/2008, you wrote:

At 02:57 PM 6/5/2008, LGS-Europe wrote:
How do people make their (medieval) plectra? I have chopped up and  
sanded

down some turkey feathers, different techniques, different
thickness/stiffnes, but I'm only half convinced of the sound.

Advice much appreciated.

David - To be honest, I still like my Fender heavy best, but it  
looks soo

un-cool on stage. ;-)


I don't use quill on medieval lutes, but I do on early Neapolitan  
mandolins
(which use strings of silver-wound silk on g, twisted brass  
harpsichord
wire on d', plain brass wire on a' and octave g', and gut on e'').   
I have

used goose quill prepared following this procedure:



Personally, no matter how much I practice the fabrication of such  
things,

natural quill simply is terribly variable.  Some will make exquisite
sounding and playing plectra and some will sound thin and tinny;  
some will
be long-lived and some will split along their length almost  
immediately;
etc.  I have found excellent and consistent results using a  
particular

model of Bic pen:


Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: medieval plectrum, how to make?

[Doc Rossi]

 From the Wikipedia article on Delrin:

Delrin has also recently found use in the manufacturing of Irish  
flutes (traditionally made of wood), tin whistles (traditionally made  
of metal), and bagpipes (traditionally made of wood). Delrin flutes  
sound similar or identical to wooden flutes, but have none of the  
shrinkage or cracking issues usually associated with wooden  
instruments in hot, cold, or dry environments. Builders such as Des  
Seery, Michael Cronnolly of M&E Flutes, Tony Dixon, and Rob Forbes all  
build Delrin flutes.
Delrin has become an increasingly popular material in the fabrication  
of guitar picks. It has excellent durability; it is much more  
resistant to wear than nylon at the point of string contact,  
especially on round-wound strings. Delrin does not crack or break like  
celluloid or polyvinyl chloride (PVC), provides a solid, slip-free  
grip, and develops a "memory" over time; that is, it gradually  
develops a slight curvature that conforms to the user's grip.
Delrin is also much treasured by many makers and players of  
harpsichords, being used for the plectra, which pluck the strings when  
a key is pressed. Delrin has been found to provide a tonal quality  
very similar to that of the bird-quill used in the heyday of the  
instrument, while being far more durable and consistent.


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[LUTE] Re: medieval plectrum, how to make?

[Doc Rossi]

http://www.pickworld.com/delrin.htm

perhaps one could cut these to the shape desired

On Jun 7, 2008, at 8:53 PM, Guy Smith wrote:

You can find Delrin at most plastics supply companies. I used to use  
it
occasionally to machine parts for lab apparatus. It's one of the  
easiest
plastics to work with, except for gluing (it's a close relative of  
Teflon,

but a lot harder). Check the Yellow Pages (or the equivalent in your
country).

Caveat 1: Many of these companies deal primarily with professionals,  
and

might have a minimum order (maybe $50 - 100).

Caveat 2: The available sizes and shapes might or might not be what  
you want

for a plectrum (and might also be vastly in excess of what you need).

Alternative: if you are at, or have access to, a University, talk to  
someone
in the machine shop (Physics typically has the best one). Machinists  
are
packrats and hate to throw anything away, so they usually have a  
large stash
of little odds and ends of metal and plastic. They might well have a  
small

piece of Delrin that they could just give you.

Guy
-Original Message-
From: LGS-Europe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:04 PM
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: medieval plectrum, how to make?


David T. wrote:


I take the quill and iron it with a heavy iron, then shape it.


First iron, or first split the feather?
Feather of what bird?
Do you use the tip or the end of the feather? Quill sounds like tip  
to me.



There are a number of other materials you can use, including thin
strips of polished wood.


Thanks for the tip, I'll try.  Somebody else came up with cow's  
bone. Why

cow and not, say, sheep, pig or - why not - ancestor or slain enemy?


You can also cut a piece of delrin


Where do you buy this?


It's the only thing I iron, really.


I handwash my concert shirts and hang them to dry. No ironing  
needed. The

best one already last for over 20 years.

David - does iron the best blouse or skirt of his wife occasionally



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl








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[LUTE] Re: Late 19th-century film of man playing lute

[Doc Rossi]

I thought it might have been Rob McBloch at first - who later had a  
sex change - but I think you're right.


On Jun 20, 2008, at 7:04 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


Incredible ! He looks exactly like Rob MacDolmetsch... :-)

Jean-Marie

=== 20-06-2008 18:21:37 ===



Very rare footage:

http://www.vimeo.com/1204502

Rob

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Orange vous informe que cet  e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus  
mail.

Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.




= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
20-06-2008

[LUTE] Re: French Style

[Doc Rossi]

David, would you care to give us a reading list of what you consider  
to be the most important works for learning about the interpretation  
of this music?


Doc

On Jun 20, 2008, at 7:56 PM, David Tayler wrote:


I think the good Jazz transcriptions are pretty good, and there are
lots of them, but would you want to live in an imaginary world with
no Jazz recordings?
If you did, would you prefer the transcriptions to no Jazz at all?

In the case of the brouderie sources, we have essentially
transcriptions, we can ignore them, of course. After all, we have no
proof that they are valid, other than the fact that someone really
wanted to write them down.
And the people who wrote them down were often learned, knowledgeable
and famous composers.

I think the issue for me, is that when I coach a French baroque music
ensemble at music workshops, I find that the students have not
studied the ornaments, they can't distinguish between coule and
pointe, they don't know that there are two types of inegal, one which
is not based on rhythm, and so on and so on. The singers can't sing
trills. And I find the same thing in professional recordings, where
the longest port de voix is at the end of the piece, and the grace
notes are backwards, the arpeggios upside down, even though the
ornament chart is in the front of the book.
This is all basic stuff. why don't they know it?
I'm not down on the performers, I'm just puzzled

Of course lute players know much more about ornamentation than the
majority of early music performers, and this is a good thing.
But for example, the article I cited, I have never met someone who  
has read it.


I'm of the "read it and then throw it away, if you like" school.
dt


dt


At 06:20 AM 6/20/2008, you wrote:

David, et al,


Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that a few hundred
years from now NO audio recordings of jazz have
survived, just some good written descriptions, "teach
yourself to play jazz saxophone/guitar/tuba" method
books, and a fair number of lead sheets.  What kind of
jazz would our descendants really be playing without
ever having heard it?  What would a 20th century
jazzer, zapped into the future, think of it?  (I can
imagine that he or she might find the future jazz
stiff and academic, lacking imagination - maybe even
"all wrong."  I doubt our jazzer would be very
impressed.)

The jazzers in the future would probably be able
to re-construct the gist of it, but would any of the
future folks ever gain the ease and suppleness of
style - "the feel" - that a contemporary jazz master
intuitively understands and ineffably puts in
practice?  Maybe.  But they'd be unlikely to get there
just by following the steps in something like a "Play
just like John Coltrane" book.

   That's us with the French style.  While I think
David's points are valid and it is important to
investigate all of these, there is a danger here.
Style in any form of music is possible to decribe in
writing but utterly impossible to teach solely in
writing.  Its very easy to trick oneself into
believing that if you play French-style elements A, B
and C the way that writers X, Y, and Z have described
them that you're actually playing the style.  The old
ones didn't learn French style from books, afterall.


Chris - prepared for time travel.

--- David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


That's a terrific question for which there is no
easy answer.
Here's a few basic starting points:
1. It is different at different times--don't
conflate the different genres
2. Inegal is the most misused and most
misunderstood. Read the
original sources, don't rely on secondary sources.
At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and
distinguish
rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is
where it always goes wrong.
3. Read up on the "gout"
4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or
3, some know half
a dozen, few know them all.
You need to know at least a dozen, to put an
arbitrary number on it.
5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting
note, the
repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play
their trills
right, or play them "evenly".
6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first
note of the
trill as a starting point--the grace note is the
long note, not the
other way around
7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and
final cadential
trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at
the end, not the
other way around.
8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements,
especially for
the port de voix, the ornament which is most often
performed
backwards (enough here for a separate post)
9. Also read the following which describes the
actual ornaments used
in Rameau's time:

Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas;   SPAGNOLI, Gina
Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period.
(Paris:
Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French.
See RILM
1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau

10. You are right about the language, lots to
investigate there.
11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasu

[LUTE] cheap 7-course

[Doc Rossi]

Perhaps this might be of interest to someone:

http://www.palmguitars.nl/page.php?cat_id=24



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[LUTE] Re: Rene Mesangeau

[Doc Rossi]

I think it's spam from a spa


On Jul 2, 2008, at 2:42 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


.Still blank, "heluth". What can the problem be ?

Jean-Marie

=== 02-07-2008 14:36:23 ===







= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
02-07-2008




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[LUTE] Re: La Cetra Galante

[Doc Rossi]

i'm not sure it's up yet...

On Jul 21, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Rob MacKillop wrote:

> Excellent. I'm off to the Magnatune site to download it. Maybe a  
> direct link would help others, Doc?
>
> Rob
>
> 2008/7/21 Doc Rossi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I've recorded a CD of solos and duets for 18h-century cittern.  It's  
>  Euro 15 plus shipping, or you can download it soon in MP3 format from  
> Magnatune.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doc
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


--

[LUTE] Re: what the heck is this instrument?

[Doc Rossi]

too many for an early one, but not for a later one.

On Jul 27, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote:


Too many courses.
RT


Hello !! it looks like a colascione  xx H.V
--- On Sun, 7/27/08, Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [LUTE] what the heck is this instrument?
To: "Lutelist" 
Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 12:36 PM
http://carlotta.gotlib.goteborg.se/zoom/534/GM_3885_bild1.jpg
RT
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[LUTE] Re: Broken consort

[Doc Rossi]

On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

More recently the gittern tuning (with highest string on the first  
course at g') seems to have found favour


Which tuning is this?



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[LUTE] Re: Broken consort

[Doc Rossi]

Hi Martyn,

Thanks.  I had forgotten about the small Praetorius cittern.  I was  
thinking of the Playford gittern/guitar tuning and wondering why  
people would use that, but now that you've reminded me of Praetorius,  
it's all clear.


What I understood is that people are using a gittern tuning for the  
broken consort repertoire. For my ears, a high tuning like that -  
higher than modern mandolin - is simply too high, and would perhaps  
sound rather choppy as well. I am willing to be convinced, though. In  
the Bacheler Consort - which, granted, is three lutes and a cittern -  
I'm already extremely loud - the cittern just seems to cut through  
rather well.  I think an octave lower - in the same area as the lute -  
would be fine.  The sound and parts are so different from the lute  
that I don't think there would be any interference.


I can understand the attractions of the gittern tuning for someone who  
is used to guitar and/or lute - it would certainly make things a lot  
easier.  However, the re-entrant tuning has its own logic - especially  
the diatonically fretted one in French tuning, with octaves on the  
lower two courses. It takes some getting used to, but there are  
idiomatic elements that I think would be lost with the gittern  
tuning.  I haven't got a chromatic cittern, so I can't really say  
whether things would be that different.  I have often thought, though,  
how convenient it would be to have a top g.


All the best,

Doc

On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:17 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:


A few sources that come to mind include:

1. LS Booklet by Gill (1977)page 7:

Praetorius small english cittern string stop c. 35cm tuned
f" bflat' d" g" or f" a' d" g" Also same tuning for 'gittern' an  
octave lower as below: evidence of 'gittern' in Payford's 1652  
publication as suggesting mid/late 17thC  citterns tuned as four  
course guitars and name gittern applied to them


2. NRI current historical notes on cittern strings extract In 1602  
"Meuler was able to produce an even stronger wire, which allowed the  
small cittern to tune up to g" and some English players tuned it to  
gittern or ocatave- lute tuning"
Segerman then goes onto to speak about Payford's later instrument  
using the same intervals similar to outlined in 1 above.


3. Ward 'Sprightly and Cheerful Music' 1981 tunings page 11, 12.  
Ward's extended paper contains a number of references to cittern/ 
gittern (eg Sir Peter Leycester's remarks " we...do call a gitterne,  
which is only a treble Psittyrne.." and similar such as Rowbotham's  
1569 publication)


I hope you didn't read to earlier email that I was advocating such  
an instrument in this repertoire!  My own knowledge of the cittern  
is  limited and if you've anything to add, or correct, on cittern  
sizes, tunings, pitches etc for the 'Rroken Consort' I'd be  
delighted to hear it.


MH


--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Doc Rossi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


From: Doc Rossi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Broken consort
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: "Lute List" 
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 10:14 AM
On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:


More recently the gittern tuning (with highest string

on the first

course at g') seems to have found favour


Which tuning is this?










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[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]"Broken" consort

[Doc Rossi]

No wire strings??? What IS this world coming to...

(very nice just the same)

On Oct 6, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

I have had the same experience as Nancy, and playing consorts with a  
recorder was not a problem at all. You can just check that by  
listening to The Sacred End Pavin ( http://tinyurl.com/54jvhd ) and  
the Galliard to The Sacred End ( http://tinyurl.com/4tw9mp ). No  
bandora, a bass lute in D instead, and no cittern, a harp  
instead...  The balance is satisfactory, at least to my ears ;-)


All the best,

Jean-Marie


=== 06-10-2008 07:52:54 ===



 I last played the broken consorts a long, long time ago with a  
recorder
 and don't remember any problems with the octave shifts. I do  
remember

 some concern about whether the lute was loud enough.
 More recently I have enjoyed the CD by L'Poem Harmoniqe Love Is
 Strange, which includes broken consorts and arrangements of duets.
 Most (all?) of them are played with something other than the  
standard 6

 instruments and the performances really sound great to me.  Since
 hearing this I am becoming more in favor of looking at these  
consorts

 as scores with possibilities for all kinds of arrangements. The LSA
 Quarterly (February, 2008) has an article about playing the consorts
 with less instruments by Andrew Hartig "Re-envisioning the Broken
 Cosort: Doing More with Less."  If any of you, who are not  
subscribers

 would like a copy, email me back with a street address.
 Nancy Carlin

   These are interesting questions.  At the recent Lute Society  
weekend

   Ian Harwood managed to assemble a consort at the high pitch - a
   minor third above modern pitch. I played my "A lute" tuned up a
   semitone, strung all in gut except for the top string which was
   nylgut.  For a gut string I think you would need a slightly  
shorter

   string length (mine is 53.5cm).
   The treble part was played on a treble violin, the size of which
   made holding it quite tricky!  The consort sounded good and the
   advantage of the high pitch solution is that the flute/recorder
   parts fit in the "correct" place in the texture.  Ian does however
   have a bass flute which allows a low pitch consort to achieve the
   same thing.  In any case I think it depends which pieces we're
   talking about as to whether the octave displacement of the flute
   causes a problem or not.  Ian's "dual-pitch" hypothesis was
   originally based on the sizes of surviving viols, but he also has
   theories about the bandora which seem to make a lot of sense. I
   can't remember how it all relates to the sizes of surviving  
citterns

   but we used a small cittern for the high-pitch consort and it
   sounded fine.
   I note with interest that the designation "treble lute" and a high
   pitch of about a minor third above modern fits nicely with the
   notion that the "mean lute" was about a tone below modern pitch (a
   fourth lower than the high pitch) - arguments for which I have  
made
   elsewhere, e.g., in the brief essay on Dowland's lutes which can  
be

   found at [1]www.johndowland.co.uk
   Best wishes,
   Martin
   Sam Chapman wrote:

   Dear Lute list,
   I'm in the process of organizing a consort in Basel to play, among
   other things, pieces from the Morley consort lessons. Having read
   various articles on the subject and listened to recordings of the
   music, I'm left with some difficult questions:
   What pitch should the music be played at?
   What kind of flute should be used and should the part be played as
   written or up an octave?
   Why the designation for "treble lute" when clearly a G  
instrument is

   intended?
   These questions and others have been already been tackled by Ian
   Harwood in his several articles, but I would be very interested to
   hear other people's thoughts and opinions (and justifications). If
   you
   have experience performing this repertoire, how did you solve  
these

   problems?
   Many thanks,
   Sam


   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 Nancy Carlin Associates
 P.O. Box 6499
 Concord, CA 94524  USA
 phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
 web site - [3]www.nancycarlinassociates.com
 Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
 web site - [4]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org
 --

References

 1. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/
 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 3. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/
 4. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/

---
Orange vous informe que cet  e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus  
mail.

Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.




= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
06-10-2008

[LUTE] Tablature Fonts for Mac

[Doc Rossi]

Has anyone got any suggestions for nice-looking French tablature fonts  
for Mac OS X?


Thanks,

Doc



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[LUTE] Re: harpsichord substitute

[Doc Rossi]

This is a wonderful performance.  I agree with you about the organ  
creating a kind of  base that supports violin or flute - with the lute  
- which could be louder - adding a slightly percussive element.


The figures are used as a guide to create a simple countersubject   
shared between the lute and the organ.


I've been working on something similar for slightly later music using  
baroque guitar and French cistre to support violin and either flute or  
French pipes.


Thanks,

Doc



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[LUTE] Re: UR Research Nearly 1600 Irish Tunes

[Doc Rossi]

Where do I get my copy?!?!?

On Nov 11, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:

This will surely excite some readers of this list.  3 vols., nearly  
1600 tunes!


- Original Message -
New items are available in the UR Research collections you have  
subscribed to:


New items in collection Musical Scores: 6

Title: The complete collection of Irish music / as noted by  
George Petrie ; edited from the original manuscripts, by Charles  
Villiers Stanford.

  Authors: Petrie, George, 1790-1866.
   Stanford, Charles Villiers, 1852-1924.
   ID: http://hdl.handle.net/1802/6228




Enjoy!
- the UR Research Team


=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Satie's
Trois Gnossiennes (1-3), performed by France Clidat, pianist.
To download, click on the CML link here
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

My Web Page:  Scores
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
  Other Matters:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
===




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[LUTE] Re: UR Research Nearly 1600 Irish Tunes

[Doc Rossi]

Wonderful - Thank you.  I used to have this book but lost it somehow,  
so it's great to have it again.


On Nov 11, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:

This will surely excite some readers of this list.  3 vols., nearly  
1600 tunes!


- Original Message -
New items are available in the UR Research collections you have  
subscribed to:


New items in collection Musical Scores: 6

Title: The complete collection of Irish music / as noted by  
George Petrie ; edited from the original manuscripts, by Charles  
Villiers Stanford.

  Authors: Petrie, George, 1790-1866.
   Stanford, Charles Villiers, 1852-1924.
   ID: http://hdl.handle.net/1802/6228




Enjoy!
- the UR Research Team


=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Satie's
Trois Gnossiennes (1-3), performed by France Clidat, pianist.
To download, click on the CML link here
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

My Web Page:  Scores
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
  Other Matters:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
===




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[LUTE] Re: The Online Lute Player

[Doc Rossi]

I agree with this assessment as well - from about the same amount of  
experience.


On Nov 18, 2008, at 5:17 PM, Guy Smith wrote:

I agree in principal, but in practice, I don't. I've been hanging  
out on

groups like this for around 20 years (starting with USENET in the mid
eighties), and I've seen a number of groups effectively destroyed by
flamers, trolls, netloons, and what have you, who basically highjack  
the

group for their own interests.

In principal, folks could just ignore them and they would give up, but
that's not what happens in practice. Instead, the flamewars thrive,  
folks
who are contributing substantively to the group decide they don't  
need this

BS and quit, lowering the signal/noise even further until the group is
effectively dead. This isn't theory, I've seen it happen more than  
once.


I think Wayne understands this dynamic quite well, and is trying to  
manage
the group to keep it healthy. He's hardly been excessive about it.  
In the
years I've been on this list, he's only blocked a relative handful  
of folks,
most of whom were contributing nothing substantive to the group at  
all.



Guy

-Original Message-
From: Eugene C. Braig IV [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 7:09 AM
To: gary digman; lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The Online Lute Player

Well, stated, Gary.  I agree.  Igor, in particular, seemed a very
minor irritation and a rather superficial provocateur.  Even though I
rarely agreed with his posts, they did sometimes make me
chuckle.  I'd rather delete the occasional irritant with a simple
keystroke then banish it along with my ideals.

Best,
Eugene


At 05:56 AM 11/18/2008, gary digman wrote:

   I have to say, I'm not sure I agree with this policy of banning
people from posting on the lutelist. I know that some people engage
in ad hominem arguing, name calling, insults etc., but it seems to
me one can always use the delete button to eliminate postings one
finds objectionable. I regard this as the price of freedom, and I
value freedom.
The lutelist has become noticeably less dynamic and, for me,
less interesting since Danyel, Matanya, et.al have been eliminated
from the list. Some dissonance is essential to give the music life.
Too much consonance and things become watered down and static. When
Charles Ives was writing his string quartets, he reportedly wrote
little dialogues between the instruments in the margins of the
manuscript, and, in one, he had one of the violins say to the
other, "What's the matter, are you one of those white-livered
weaklings who can't stand up and face a good dissonance like a man?"
 How many people have to be offended before someone gets
banned from the list? It seems to me only two or three. I'm always
startled by posters who refer to the lutelist as "my list" or "our
list" as if this forum belonged to a select group of insiders whose
job it is to police the list and make sure it conforms to the
vision of this group of insiders. I think the list is more vibrant
and robust when it's treated as a public forum in which "a hundred
flowers bloom and a hundred thoughts contend." So I say buck up,
keep the lutelist open and free and use the delete button if
someone crosses the line.

Best to All,
Gary

- Original Message - From: "Rob MacKillop"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute List" 
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 12:57 AM
Subject: [LUTE] The Online Lute Player



 Sorry this is so long...



 The recent Igor = The Devil thread has been gnawing away at me. He
 might have been clumsy in the way he expressed himself, but he was
 entitled to his view. However, he has highlighted the topic of the
 Online Lute Player, and what one might expect that to be, and  
that is

 what I would like to turn our attention to.



 In the days before YouTube, one would have expected a degree of
 professional standard from a recording artist (setting aside  
personal

 preference for one artist over another). Professional reviewers
 (rightly or wrongly) saw it as part of their job to inform their
 readers of who was hot and who was not, and why they thought so.
 YouTube has blown all that away. Someone who has just picked up  
his/her
 first guitar and decides to pluck it with a banana (not you,  
Val!), can
 reach an audience of thousands within days. You, the watcher- 
listener,
 have to make up your own mind whether something is 'good' or not.  
You
 can watch the video or not. I imagine Igor (and he is not alone)  
would

 like to see a return to a situation where one would expect a
 professional standard of performance and presentation. But that  
just

 isn't going to happen - well, I can't see any signs of it at the
 moment.



 David Taylor has raised two interesting points: 1. These videos  
give an

 insight into how the lute/guitar is actually played, and 2. the
 professionals are waiting until they can completely control the
 production process before submitting their 'performances' for  
public

 scru

[LUTE] Re: The Online Lute Player

[Doc Rossi]

What gets me about the new technology is that we can record in such  
high fidelity yet so many people prefer downloads of MP3s which are  
quite lo-fi. It's rather curious to see these paths going in different  
directions.


On Nov 19, 2008, at 2:25 PM, Anthony Hind wrote:


Rob
 I heartily agree with you. I have a mono cartridge of 1950 made for  
the French ORTF, the dynamics that this gets out of early vinyl LPs  
is jaw dropping. La Callas is in the room; while, with the stereo  
cartridge the same recording is lifeless. I have also heard this  
cartridge used with a diamond for 78 on a shellac, and it was breath  
taking. Probably 78s were more often made with one take. Please do  
make you next recording on 78.

Anthony


Le 19 nov. 08 à 14:00, Rob MacKillop a écrit :

I agree that MP3s are not the same quality as CDs, and add that CDs  
are not the same quality as vinyl. I wish I had made an old- 
fashioned LP. I suppose I still can, but it would be very expensive.


I bought a 1930s gramophone a couple of years ago to play 78s. I  
was able to contrast the sound of some Benny Goodman/Charlie  
Christian recordings on 78s and CDs. I can state that, in my  
opinion, sound reproduction has not improved at all - it has just  
got different. With the CD versions (re-mastered) I can hear every  
instrument, even the bass drum, but the guitar sound is weak and  
lower in the mix. On the 78s, Charlie Christian jumps out of the  
speaker, right into your room - a fantastic sound - but some  
instruments are lost. In this instance I prefer the 78s.


I actually WILL be recording a CD in February with the Paris-based  
viol player, Jonathan Dunford - well, he asked me to - for Alpha  
Recordings. I wonder if I could persuade them to make it a 78?!


Rob MacKillop




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estampie

[doc rossi]

Can anyone out there help me find the notes to the 14th c. English 
estampie from the Robertsbridge codex? It's the one that's often used 
to illustrate 'hocket'.

Thanks,

Doc

Strada della Repubblica 45
43100 Parma (PR)
Italy

http://www.magnatune.com/artists/docrossi
tel: (+39) 0521 23 48 68
cell: (+39) 348 8000 572

stuart walsh

[doc rossi]

hey stuart, your email bounced back to me.  i haven't got my hands on 
anything yet, but someone else is looking, so i'll get back to you. 
thanks.

paulo galvao

[doc rossi]

does anyone have paulo galvao's email or postal address? i have an old 
hotmail address for him that doesn't seem to be working.

Re: paulo galvao

[doc rossi]

Well, Roman and Arthur each sent me different addresses, and they 
bounced too! I wonder where Paulo is...

Re: paulo galvao

[doc rossi]

I searched Paulo's name in Google and found a musicalia site that is 
quite handsome and contains no porn-related materials except for his 
tiorba.  It also produced another address or two to try...

Re: Django on Mac with VPC

[doc rossi]

I used to use Fronimo on my Mac with VPC, but I have to say that I'm so 
pleased with the new version of Finale that I don't bother with 
anything else now.  Thanks to Daniel, though. I'm a little curious 
about Harmony Assistant so I'll have to check it out.  Finale is 
expensive if you can't use an academic discount, but it does do nice 
tab, is quite flexible, and the print-out is great.

Re: Django on Mac with VPC

[doc rossi]

Hi  Ed,

Yup, baroque cittern is my deal, but I play a 7-course, so a line below 
is useful sometimes.  If you've only used 3.7, things have changed, a 
lot.  It's quite easy to use now.

Doc

Re: R: HIP, Renbourne & O"Dette

[doc rossi]

> The most current Mac version for OS9.2 has no files listed in the XML 
> doc.
> RT
Wouldn't the most current Mac be OS10.3.4?

OT - organ terms

[doc rossi]

Hi Folks,

Does anyone out there know enough Italian and enough about organs to 
give me a had with a few terms that I need to translate (IT into ENG)? 
I've done the library and internet research but there are still a few 
things I can't find.

Thanks a lot,

Doc



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Re: vihuela cd rom

[doc rossi]

>> I sent an email to LACG asking them what the current story is; I'll 
>> let
>> the List know what I find out.
>>
> I just heard from LACG: they have no news concerning a Mac version of
> the vihuela CD. (I fail to understand why anybody would put out a CD 
> that
> requires proprietary software for easy viewing.  Yet another 
> manifestation
> of the fact that god is on the side of the big battalions?)

It's quite easy to put the whole thing into a website format and burn 
disks that are readable on all platforms. PDF is another easy solution 
for cross-platform viewing. Maybe what happens is that people get 
locked into programs and don't look into other options. At the eBook 
level, cross-platform presentation is really easy.



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Re: Vihuela/guitar

[doc rossi]

Hi Everyone.

Can we go back to this topic for a minute? I realized that I had a 
translation of Bermudo done by Dawn Astrid Espinosa (JLSA XXVIII-XXIX, 
1995-6), so I took at look and I couldn't find any reference to the c e 
g c' e' g' tuning; there is a five-course guitar in a similar tuning (G 
d g b d'), but I can't find anything else. If someone is familiar with 
this translation, maybe you could tell me on which page I should look?

I also seem to remember a guitar book describing continuo playing in an 
open C tuning. Is this Nicola Matteis (c.1680) or something like that, 
or am I completely off base?

Thanks,

Doc Rossi
Strada della Repubblica 45
43100 Parma (PR)
Italy

http://www.magnatune.com/artists/docrossi
tel: (+39) 0521 23 48 68
cell: (+39) 348 8000 572



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Re: oldest known recording of a lute?

[doc rossi]

I have a copy of a Suzanne Bloch EP in the US. Maybe I should auction 
it off to the highest bidder...



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Re: early recordings

[doc rossi]

> There have been plans to digitize some wax cylinders from the archives 
> of
> the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences by the facilities of the Library of
> Congress, and a few have been indeed done, but the venture didn't find
> financing to do the entire colection.
> RT

The Berlin Archive produced a collection called Music! which includes 
wax cylinder and other early recordings. Some very interesting stuff.



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Re: Wire strings

[doc rossi]

>>> The art
>>> of wire-drawing does not appear to have been known until the 14th 
>>> century,
>>> and it was not introduced into England before the second half of the 
>>> 17th

This may be true, but that doesn't say anything about Ireland, and even 
if there is documentation about how and when it all happened in 
England, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen somewhere else, 
possibly using different techniques. Plus, if Ireland, or anywhere else 
for that matter, was primarily an oral culture, and/or the operation 
was considered sacred or secret or reserved for any reason (or 
unimportant or common knowledge), that could explain why no 
documentation has been found.  Anyway, besides a certain anglo-centric 
point of view, the key point in this passage, for me, is "does not 
appear", which is a much more concise way of saying what I've just 
said...



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Re: Wire strings

[doc rossi]

> If the Irish had wire technology they would have been supplying English
> textile industry, but Elisabethan customs authorities had massive 
> problems
> with Continental wire contraband, so obviously there was no wire in 
> Ireland.
>
I'm getting a little confused, Roman.  First you say the 14th century 
isn't really early, then you bring Elizabethan England into it. Why? 
And not only that, but at that time there was a constant state of 
animosity, resentment and fear between England and Ireland, which you 
don't take into account, and there is still the question of the 
willingness to share what could be considered reserved techniques and 
technologies, not just in terms of those within a tradition and those 
outside, but between enemies. You know how and why history is written - 
how research is done, and the motivations and objectives behind 
gathering information (including what constitutes a valid source and 
even where to look), interpreting it, drawing conclusions from it and 
then publishing and distributing it. In an earlier post you mentioned a 
web article concerning the history of drawn wire and later quoted "From 
an encyclopedia" - are these the same source? Maybe I missed your post 
concerning the name of the encyclopedia, and please excuse me if I 
have, but can I ask which encyclopedia, who is the author of the 
article you quote from, and what are the sources drawn upon? I've got a 
friend at the Journal of the History of Technology, who also, as it 
happens, is a blacksmith - I'll drop him a note to ask if he could 
point us to any other useful information.

Didn't Stephen Barber take Francis Bacon at his word and string up an 
instrument with silver strings? I seem to remember something about 
this, and about quite favorable results.

Doc



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Re: Question about lute courses/strings

[doc rossi]

> It doesn't matter if the music you want to play is by John Dowland
> or Earl Scruggs. You first need to learn what the experts did,
> before you try doing it yourself. Much may be learned, of course, by
> listening to recordings, but if music is readily available in
> written form, it would be foolhardy to ignore it.

Well, I agree to a point, but remember all those guitarists who'd tried 
to play like Les Paul without knowing anything about multi-tracking and 
variable tape speed. They found a way to play what they'd heard.



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new address

[doc rossi]

In case anyone needs to reach me by traditional post, here's my new 
address.

Wishing you all a happy and creative new year,

Doc Rossi
Via Secchi 40
42100 Reggio Emilia (RE)
Italy

http://www.magnatune.com/artists/docrossi
tel: (+39) 0522 43 43 95
cell: (+39) 348 8000 572



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new list for historical citterns

[doc rossi]

Dear Lute Net,

I want to invite those of you who might be interested to join a new 
list for discussing historical citterns and their music. This will not 
be a forum for discussing Celtic music and the modern mando-family of 
instruments used to play it (commonly known as CBOMs), but rather a 
forum for instruments such as the Renaissance cittern, its variants, 
ancestors and progeny, the so-called English guittar (a.k.a. Scottish 
guitar, 18th-cen. cittern), the more-or-less indigenous citterns such 
as those found in Portugal, Corsica, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden, 
North Africa, etc., and that ilk. There will certainly be some 
overlapping interests between this list and the new one, but the latter 
will have a different focus.

As usual, to subscribe, send an empty email with the word "subscribe" 
in the subject line to

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

We're just starting, so don't expect too much mail just yet.

Thanks to Wayne for setting up the list,

Doc Rossi
Via Secchi 40
42100 Reggio Emilia (RE)
Italy

http://www.magnatune.com/artists/docrossi
tel: (+39) 0522 43 43 95
cell: (+39) 348 8000 572



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[LUTE] Re: Police

[doc rossi]

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtbrM4OekrE
>
> not actually a lute...but a good technique indeed!
>
> Paolo
>
>

That's nice, but check out this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCNH2M5SH-o




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[LUTE] Re: Police

[doc rossi]

> Talking about technique, who would venture to surpass this guy:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn99rAAgX4&search=gerardo%20nunez
>
>
try this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbndgwfG22k&mode=related&search=



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[LUTE] Re: close your eyes, or only hearing, without seeing, was: Police

[doc rossi]

>> Talking about technique, who would venture to surpass this guy:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn99rAAgX4&search=gerardo%20nunez
>>
>
>
> This one for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7m3aIuGlUg
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Bruno Correia.
>
>
Yikes - He sure can shred. Pity about the tone, though. I'll have to  
try that sweep picking on the cittern...



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[LUTE] Re: close your eyes, or only hearing, without seeing, was: Police

[doc rossi]

> Could you explain a bit about that technique of sweep picking?
> That guy's right hand looked like it was moving really effortlessly.
> Think the dude sold his soul to the devil.
>
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

Have a look at the Chops From Hell website - lots of free lessons.   
There's a certain similarity between sweep picking and the two finger  
arpeggio technique talked about in 18th-c cittern tutors, where the  
thumb sweeps down across the strings and the index follows sweeping up.



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[LUTE] Re: Scarboro Fair

[doc rossi]

> Try
> http://www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=76
>
> Paolo Declich
>
>
>

A little history - Paul Simon took Martin Carthy's arrangement of  
S.F. (which Martin had kindly (and rather naively, I guess) written  
out for him one evening at dinner) and copyrighted it out from under  
him. Fortunately for Martin he had recorded it on his Landfall LP,  
which had come out about a year before S&G's recording, so eventually  
Martin won the case. The upshot is, when someone says "Paul Simon's  
arrangement" of S.F., as on this site, it should read, "Martin  
Carthy's arrangement."



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[LUTE] Re: Scarboro Fair

[doc rossi]

> Somewhere in all this, John Renbourn's arrangement is surely worth a
> mention.  That said, was it ever a lute tune?
>
John's arrangement is indeed nice, but I think it's also post-Carthy.  
S.F. was Carthy's "hit" of that period. JR did several nice  
arrangements of old tunes like S.F.



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[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?

[Doc Rossi]

I think there's something in general to be said about so-called  
"folk" techniques and projected early ones. Wrapping the thumb around  
the neck and planting the little finger on the top are two examples.   
Many "folk" guitarists also play only with thumb and index, although  
not necessarily thumb under.  Some Portuguese guitarists do use thumb  
under, and dedilho; I've seen fingerstyle guitarists use the latter  
technique as well. I used to play with traditional Irish fiddlers;  
one day we were approached by a baroque violinist who wanted to talk  
to the fiddlers about how they held the violin as it was so similar  
to what he thought was the correct baroque position.

Doc Rossi
Element Music
Le Grand Domaine
Boulevard des Dames 26
13002 Marseille
France

www.cetrapublishing.com
www.magnatune.com/artists/docrossi.html
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel: (+33) (0)4 91 52 90 45
cell: (+33) (0)6 80 01 58 47

On Nov 30, 2006, at 4:19 PM, Anthony Hind wrote:

Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit :

Dear Anthony and all,

at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly
a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to
avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me
on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are
said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi
mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments
(and possibly in a rendering of "Anji" on the six-course lute) but
I would avoid it when playing Francesco ...
Thank you Joachim
But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him
(by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with
his thumb "cocked" in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/
renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may
have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute
Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of
Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see  the juxtaposed comparison between
this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/
Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top).
but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position.
All the best
Anthony
All best,

Joachim

  "Anthony Hind" <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
Dear All
 In Lute News N=B079,  P.25, we  can read that  "The January
2006 (Vol
24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left
thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen
   in some renaissance lute paintings)" and often seen in folk guitar
techniques. I suppose the article in question was "All Fingers and
Thumbs"  by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read).
The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this
clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several
members of
the French lute list have suggested that this might only have
been on
relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular
section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also
been
suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would
have been very close together, to assist in this "thumb-blocking".

It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit  ;in
to the   ;
curve of the hand for this technique.
However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this
type of
lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason
technique.
Anthony



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-- 
Dr. Joachim Ludtke
Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a
D - 93164 Laaber
Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188


--


--

[LUTE] lute sighting

[Doc Rossi]

this one leaves me speechless, but check out the right hand towards  
the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b56WO5ctL8E

Actually, I've been trying to find the videos of Hopkinson Smith  
playing Bach.  Does anyone know where they are?



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[LUTE] Re: Thumb on diapason?

[Doc Rossi]

On Dec 1, 2006, at 9:22 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:

> There is only one way to finger it, assuming you want to sustain the
> part-writing. It doesn't involve the left-hand thumb

I wonder if that is really the point; that is, one could find many  
possible fingerings, but that does not necessarily exclude use of the  
left-hand thumb, does it?
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[LUTE] Chris Morrongello

[Doc Rossi]

I'm trying to reach Chris but his optonline.net address is bouncing.  
Does anyone have a different address?

Thank you,

Doc Rossi



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[LUTE] Re: VERY OFF TOPIC! (political?)

[Doc Rossi]

Thank you, Anthony, for your thoughtful and thought-provoking summary.

I believe musicians caught up in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict  
also have their share of problems, like oudist Samir Joubran, for  
example, who cannot perform in most of the Arab world because he is  
an Israeli citizen.  I have met two different Israeli singers (both  
women, and their names escape me at the moment) who have had long- 
term working relationships with Palestinian musicians.  One is here  
in France, the other in Rome.

The organization I'm playing for now, J.A.DE, was founded to  
demonstrate the many links among Mediterranean peoples in music,  
poetry and dance. A lofty perhaps even naive proposal for some, but  
it is something we can do.

Doc Rossi



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[LUTE] Re: microphones

[Doc Rossi]

On Feb 4, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Louis Aull wrote:

> Ask any performing acoustic guitar player and they will swear by  
> internal
> pickups over external mikes.

Sorry, Louis, not me.
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[LUTE] Re: Did you ever know that....

[Doc Rossi]

okay, roman, you're brilliant...

On Feb 5, 2007, at 7:31 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

> A left-handed compliment, rather???
> RT
>
> From: "Narada" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Not sure if that's an insult to Hendrix or an insult to the Lute.  
>> Mind
>> you I never was a Hendrix fan.
>>
>> From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: [LUTE] Did you ever know that
>> http://community.livejournal.com/lutnia_ua/
>> RT
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Bartoli lets it blast

[Doc Rossi]

I think it's just that her dress is too tight.

On Feb 10, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

> No, it is more like "Billions of Blue Blistering Barnacles (Armatae  
> Furiae),
> faster! harder1 carbon fiber is it"
> RT
> - Original Message -
> From: "Daniel Shoskes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:16 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Bartoli lets it blast
>
>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0LRwGimdY8&eurl=
>>
>> My Italian is rusty, but I think she is yelling at the archlute
>> player (Luca Pianca?) to re-string completely in gut.
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> _
> Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy
> with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com
>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: ebony etc

[Doc Rossi]

On Feb 16, 2007, at 10:43 AM, Anthony Hind wrote:

> Craig
>   Of course walnut oil comes form walnuts. The local village where my
> wife comes from presses, walnuts for the oil. Olive oil comes from
> olives, doesn't prevent the olive wood from being oily. It is not the
> sound of the gun that was being referred to (I believ) but a certain
> cushioning of the recoil, and the non-fracturing of the stock. The
> message does  not actually mention oilyness, but the association with
> teak, and the fact that olive wood is so oily (and its fruits produce
> oil)  made me think perhaps this was also the case of walnut.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/
> browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=st&q=stained
> +woods+to+replace++ebony&rnum=2&hl=fr#562990314731bb57
>
> Guitar woods  Groupe : rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
> Groupes de discussion : rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
> De : MICHAEL BOISSEVAIN
> Objet : Re: Guitar woods (esp Walnut)
>
> I have a serious question here about walnut.  I have been
> seriously leaning toward walnut as a tonewood for a guitar
> which I hope to order in the next few months.  I just liked
> the *idea* of walnut, i.e. its origin, its appearance, etc.
> Well, recently I spoke to a (relatively new) luthier who worked
> for a large high-end guitar company.  (I won't mention names or
> locations here, so as to avoid any flaming anyone.) He said that
> this company had a large run of Oregon walnut guitars in a number
> of sizes, and that they had mostly all been "duds".  He felt that
> walnut was an excellent sound absorber (kind of like teak), rather
> than a sound reflecter, and provided the example of rifle stocks,
> where walnut is the most common wood, ostensibly because of its
> ability to absorb vibration. For this reason, he does not offer
> walnut as a choice in his guitars.
>
> It would be great to hear some comments on this from experienced
> luthiers. I still like the idea of walnut, but I would
> hate to order the guitar of a lifetime, and end up with a "dud".
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages precedents -
>
> The replies contradicted CB's assertions, as you have. I was just
> reporting
> both points of view.
> Regards
> Anthony
>
>
> Le 16 fevr. 07 =E0 07:29, Craig Robert Pierpont a ecrit :
>
>> Anthony,
>>People say all kinds of stuff. The similarity between walnut and
>> teak is that they both come from trees. (Walnut oil comes from
>> walnuts.) As far as gunstocks are concerned, did you ever hear a
>> quiet gun? So it follows that walnut must make a loud instrument.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> Craig R. Pierpont
>> Another Era Lutherie
>> www.anotherera.com
>>
>> Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Rob
>> I love the look and feel of walnut. So if it works that could be
>> excellent. However, there was some difference of opinion on the
>> guitar construction site, as to whether walnut sounded well or not.
>> Some claimed they had made, or heard, excellent walnut guitars,
>> others suggested that if walnut was chosen for rifle buts, it is
>> because it kills resonance and absorbs shocks. They seemed to claim
>> this was because it is an oily wood, as they associated it with teak,
>> which they also claimed resonates poorly.
>> I assume, if this is true, the same would be true of olive wood. If
>> the oil is the reason, perhaps there might be ways of removing it,
>> and some walnut-types might be less oily;
>> so I imagine that the type of walnut, and what part of the tree is
>> used would also be very significant. Certainly, the only way to be
>> sure is to experiment.
>> Regards
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>> Le 15 fevr. 07 =E0 16:27, Rob Dorsey a ecrit :
>>
>>> Anthony,
>>>
>>> No, not to my knowledge but that doesn't mean it did not happen. My
>>> point
>>> is, as a confirmed lute heretic awaiting the gallows, what
>>> difference does
>>> it make if it was not used 400 years ago? It's here and available
>>> now, where
>>> we live, and could make nice instruments of perhaps lower cost
>>> whilst losing
>>> nothing in acoustics or appearance. In fact it might be nicer than
>>> some
>>> historically correct woods.
>>>
>>> One builder's opinion. I could be wrong.
>>>
>>> Rob Dorsey
>>> http://RobDorsey.com
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:30 AM
>>> To: Rob Dorsey; Martin Shepherd
>>> Cc: Lute Net
>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc
>>>
>>> Rob et al
>>> Are there any known historical examples of this? Of course even if
>>> there
>>> aren't, that would not exclude the possibilty that some did exist,
>>> with none
>>> having survived.
>>> Regards
>>> Anthony
>>> Le 15 fevr. 07 =E0 15:00, Rob Dorsey a ecrit :
>>>
 Hi All,

 I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut for lutes
 as a
 body wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the
 birdseye, and has a beautiful nominally dark hu

[LUTE] Re: OT but music or at least sound: Episyklofoni

[Doc Rossi]

mac os 10.4 - safari no, firefox yes.

On Apr 17, 2007, at 9:30 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Perhaps someone is interested?
> If my earlier applets did not work in your system, this will  
> neither...
> ;-(


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[LUTE] Re: Tables (was cleaning a soundboard + Strap)

[Doc Rossi]

didn't he give a talk about tables at the recent LSA meeting?

On May 16, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Edward Martin wrote:

> I cannot speak for Chris on this subject, as he is the one who  
> researched
> the topic, and he does perform the lute by resting it on a table.   
> I do not
> know if anything on the topic has been published, but I doubt that  
> it has been.
>
> ed
>
>
>
>
>
> At 01:09 PM 5/16/2007 +0200, Anthony Hind wrote:
>> Ron
>> I have to admit that I haven't heard or read Christopher
>> Morrongielo
>> on this research into lute tables (does any one have references? I
>> did a wb search and came up with nothing, in this area), so my
>> imagination and inventive inclinations may have got the better of me.
>> Nevertheles, I would love to acquire one of these specially made  
>> lute-
>> tables (if they do exist); but then, I so enjoy the moments when my
>> research as a phonetician seems to cross the area of my hobby, lute
>> playing (and the occasional hifi tweaking to better reproduce the
>> sound of the lute). Therefore, I will also admit that I do hope that
>> such tables did exist.
>>
>> More second hand confirmation about this research comes to me from
>> Doc Rossi, on the French list. He also tells me that Christoper
>> Morrongiello has, indeed, done very interesting research on this
>> subject,  and Doc claims Christopher has clearly shown that they do
>> work well, and that such tables did exist.
>> Regards
>> Anthony
>>
>> Le 15 mai 07 =E0 23:19, Ron Fletcher a ecrit :
>>
>>> Ed wrote...
>>> This does indeed sound a very interesting concept. The tables
>>> were made specifically for lutes, so I suppose the wood and its
>>> thickness, and perhaps its shape, would have been chosen for this
>>> purpose.
>>>
>>> Anthony wrote...
>>> Nevertheless, the fact that many salons might have had such a lute-
>>> table, does imply that lutes took up much more space in people's
>>> lives than one might have expected at first reflection. Less than a
>>> piano today, more like a spinet, perhaps.
>>>  
>>> __
>>> __
>>> How about the origins of the word Table?  A place to lay tablature?
>>> I suspect tablature derived from the use of a table?
>>>
>>> What is an occasional table - the rest of the time?
>>>
>>> Is an acoustic extending-table suitable for all voices - S.A.T.B?
>>> (Anag.?)
>>>
>>> How do you tune an acoustic-table?  Saw a bit off a leg?
>>>
>>> Is that where you would like the sound-hole?  No, that is where I
>>> put my
>>> coffee cup!
>>>
>>> For projection (protection?), perhaps lute-players pointed the legs
>>> of the
>>> table towards the audience and played from behind?
>>>
>>> Did bad lute-players otherwise keep a whip and stool handy?
>>>
>>> How did the term 'highly-strung' come about? - Er...Don't go there!
>>>
>>> Did table-dancers get turned on by lute-music?
>>>
>>> Is this a load of tisch and tosh?
>>>
>>> This seems a good time to duck behind my flame-wall!
>>>
>>> Best Wishes
>>> Ron (UK)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/805 - Release Date:  
>> 5/15/2007
>> 10:47 AM
>
>
>
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota  55812
> e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> voice:  (218) 728-1202
>
>
>
>

[LUTE] diamm

[Doc Rossi]

I suppose people know about this resource - I came across it while  
looking for something totally unrelated.

http://www.diamm.ac.uk/




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[LUTE] Re: Durante -was:Re: Matthew Locke

[Doc Rossi]

I thought parallel octaves and fifths were okay as long as they  
happen in the inner voices rather than the outer. And what about  
octave stringing, especially on the harpsichord?

On Aug 2, 2007, at 11:20 AM, Rob wrote:

> Here is another interesting continuo link. I've uploaded for a few  
> days only
> the article by John Walter Hill on 'Realised Continuo  
> Accompaniments from
> Florence, c.1600' (Early Music April 1983).
>
> www.rmguitar.info/temp.htm
>
> It is a large file, over 7 megabites, but the main point can be  
> extracted
> here. Hill located many lute/theorbo/keyboard realization of songs by
> Caccini and others of that period, and found (big intake of breath)  
> parallel
> octaves and fifths. Those who claim to playing 'authentic'  
> realizations by
> following written rules about omitting such things, might have to  
> have a
> rethink...
>
>
 Yet these
> parallelisms are found frequently in nearly every one
> of these Florentine realizations, whether for archlute
> or keyboard. It is often overlooked that even Viadana.
> the church musician. wrote, in 1602. 'The organ part is
> never under any obligation to avoid two Sths or two
> octave^'.'^ Guidotti. in his preface to Cavalieri's Rappresentazione
> di anima et di cop0 (Rome. 1 600), says 'two
> Sths are taken as occasion demands'. Caccini in his
> preface to Euridice (Florence, I6OO), writes 'I have not
> avoided the succession of two octaves or two 5th~'.
> Vincenzo Galilei, in his Dialogo of 158 1 ,26 had advised
> them all that two or more perfect consonances consecutively
> are to be allowed when three or more parts
> are sounding, advice upon which he elaborates in a
> treatise of c1590 in this way: 'The law of modern
> contrapuntists that prohibits the use of two octaves or
> two 5ths is a law truly contrary to every natural law of
> singing [solo song^].<<<
>
> Parallel octaves and fifths in 'NEARLY EVERY ONE'!
>
> Also note references to chords lacking any kind of third - just  
> roots and
> fifths, in other words 'power chords' - much decried by the two  
> Davids on
> this list.
>
> Rob MacKillop
>
> www.rmguitar.info
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: piano-forte guittars

[Doc Rossi]

Hi Andy,

I'd never had the opportunity to try a keyboard guittar - thanks for  
the info. I'd love to try one.  I thought I had some X-ray photos I  
had downloaded from the internet, but I can't find them.  Have a look  
at Tastenzister on the Musikinstrumenten-Museum der Universität  
Leipzig site, esp. numbers 626, 627 and 628.

http://studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_tast.htm

Actually, Steffen Milbradt speaks English very well and may have more  
info and/or photos.

By the way, Anne Ford talks about damping with the right hand:

The Imperfections of the Guittar, and all these Sort of Instruments,  
are, that when a full Note is struck, the Vibration continues longer  
than it ought, and by this Defect, a disagreeable, unharmonious Buzz  
is occasioned.  This would be intolerable where there is such Length  
of wire as on a Harpsichord, and therefore the red Cloth in the Jacks  
of that Instrument, by instantly returning to the Wire, removes the  
Defect; and this may be in a great Measure done on the Guittar, by a  
slight Dot of the Forefinger on the String vibrating, and by a little  
Practice, it may be acquired without any Interruption to the  
Performance, and with great Facility: And when the whole, or greatest  
Part of the Instrument is open'd by a Clash across the Cords, it may  
be instantly taken off, by letting the Ball of your Right-hand very  
slightly touch all the Strings together, just over the Bridge.

The Forte, and Piano, are the chief Beauties of this Instrument, and  
therefore they should be always attended to.  In playing the Piano,  
you may let the Ball of your [pk] Right-hand, very slightly, touch  
all the Strings as described above, which will occasion a very  
pleasing Variety, and give the Strings the Tone of Catgut.

---

I don't want anyone thinking that I keep all these references in my  
head - this is something I was going to use for my Lute Society talk  
next month.

Doc Rossi

On Aug 16, 2007, at 2:10 AM, Andrew Rutherford wrote:

> Hi cittern bunch,
>
> Has anybody out there looked into the various keyboard mechanisms  
> that were
> used on the english guittar?  I went up to the Met museum in NY  
> yesterday,
> where they have examples of the two approaches that I know of:   
> (Christian?)
> Claus's instrument that has the hammers inside the body of the  
> guittar;  and
> "Smith's Patent Box", which is retrofitted onto any standard guittar.
>
> They have two Clauses at the museum.  Both have unusual string  
> layouts, with
> the courses arranged 3,3,2,2,1,1 from high to low. i.e., 3 strings  
> in the
> 1st and 2nd  courses, etc.  One of them has what appears to be an  
> original
> bridge with a sliding attachment for damping the strings.  So the  
> instrument
> has multiple playing possibilities:  with fingers like normal;   
> with the
> keyboard;  and with either fingers or keyboard plus the damping  
> thingie.
> Somebody (Bremner?)  refers to damping the strings with the side of  
> the
> right hand ala surf guitar, i believe.  The two Clauses were in  
> pretty bad
> shape generally, but one of them is without a rose, which makes it  
> possible
> to see the sticks and levers that make up the hammer action. I  
> couldn't
> fathom it on first viewing.  They're all busted up in there. On the  
> other
> Claus the hammer mechanism is intact but it's really hard to see in  
> there...
>
> They let me take apart the "Smith Patent Box" (attached to a  
> typical e.g. by
> anon)  which is in very good condition, though not quite in working  
> order.
> I had brought along my guitt for show and tell, and placed the box in
> position on my instrument.  it made an amazing sound, much louder  
> than that
> produced by plucking; kind of hammered dulcimerish.
> Anyway, the box is a very elaborate and precise  construction of wood,
> parchment and leather, with brass wire "springs" for the keys and  
> hammers.
> I took about a million pictures, if anybody wants to race me in  
> constructing
> one.
>
> The way i understand it, the keyboard idea appeared late in the  
> history of
> the guittar,  1780s?   In the music library at Yale they have an  
> instruction
> book for the "Piano-Forte Guittar" written by Ghillini di Asuni(!) and
> published in London, circa 1795, by Longman & Broderip.  I haven't  
> seen the
> book yet.
>
> I find this all very interesting.
>
> andy rutherford
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Kirkby on the youtubes

[Doc Rossi]

Isn't that Paul Brier?

On Aug 24, 2007, at 4:09 AM, Daniel Shoskes wrote:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTV6F3lTU7o
>
> I think it's Linda Sayce on "turbo lute" during the recitative but I
> don't recognize her continuo partner.
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: dedillo

[Doc Rossi]

I was just in Portugal for a PG conference.  According to Pedro  
Caldeira Cabral, the PG is not a descendent of the EG but rather a  
parallel development of their "native" cittern.  His large and  
wonderfully illustrated book includes his argument, and an article  
may be translated into English soon. The EG is probably of German  
rather than British origin, but I think trying to find the original  
source is futile.

I've seen people play dedilho before, but never to such an advanced  
degree as in Portugal.  I found it fascinating to watch. The octave  
stringing is also very important when using the thumb to play the  
melody and the index to play a tremolo, often on the second course.  
David Rutherfoord's instructions for Cittern or Guitar say index and  
thumb are enough. Bremner, Light and others say this technique is too  
limited. I guess they had never seen a real dedilho master.

By the way, about long-necked lutes. I've been reading a book about  
the Bulgarian Tambura. The author argues that the saz and like  
instruments came to the Balkans from India via Bulgaria.  He presents  
evidence of French writers from the late 18th and early 19th  
centuries who found such instruments in North Africa and the Middle  
East with names like the bulgaria.

Doc Rossi

On Oct 31, 2007, at 2:13 AM, John Griffiths wrote:

> Hi Jocelyn,
> No the guitarra portuguesa is closer to a cittern in its modern form
> -- they still use the term viol=E3o (=vihuela in Port.) for the  
> Spanish  
> guitar. Even though the current instrument is of 18th-century British
> origin, the techniques for playing it are much older. They still play
> "dedilho" for most passage work.
>
> Check these:
>
> http://www.attambur.com/Recolhas/a_guitarra_portuguesa.htm
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_guitar
>
> John
>
>
> On 31/10/2007, at 11:45, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Is the Portuguese guitar you mention the 4-course like the
>> Renaissance guitar and the uke?
>>
>> Jocelyn
>>
>>
>> From: John Griffiths [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Tue 10/30/2007 8:41 PM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
>>
>> My two-penneth worth is that we have two main ways of learning about
>> dedillo from contemporary practice. One is from the variety of
>> techniques used in vihuela/guitarra-derivatives in Latin America,
>> such as the charango and various others. The second is the Portuguese
>> guitar that has continued to use dedillo technique in a manner that I
>> suspect is not far removed from the way that sixteenth-century
>> vihuelists used it.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On 31/10/2007, at 10:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
>>
>>> At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote:
>>>> Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique?  I
>> don't
>>>> think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any
>>>> kind of
>>>> lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of
>>>> the
>>>> instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there?
>>>> And
>>>> hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it.
>>>>
>>>> Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get
>>>> the flesh
>>>> of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of
>>>> dedillo
>>>> seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the
>>>> considered
>>>> upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather
>>>> percussive chunk downwards with the thumb?
>>>
>>> Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and
>>> perhaps
>>> even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal
>>> charango
>>> technique).
>>>
>>> I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart.  The
>>> potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced
>>> upstroke of
>>> nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same
>>> finger, back
>>> of nail only.  To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article:
>>> [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been
>>> indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited
>>> to this
>>> type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on
>>> the
>>> accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the
>>> subsequent release of the finger to its original start

[LUTE] Re: dedillo

[Doc Rossi]

Hi Ed,

I think I misunderstood your question earlier. They use the flesh  
side of the nail for the strong beat - the stroke towards the body.

Doc

On Oct 31, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:

>
> On Oct 31, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Doc Rossi wrote:
>
>> I've seen people play dedilho before, but never to such an advanced
>> degree as in Portugal.
>
> Did they use the flesh side or nail side for the strong beat in  
> Portugal?
> TIA
>
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
>


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[LUTE] Re: dedillo

[Doc Rossi]

Hi Ed,

I think I misunderstood your question earlier. They use the flesh  
side of the nail for the strong beat - the stroke towards the body.

Doc

On Oct 31, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:

>
> On Oct 31, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Doc Rossi wrote:
>
>> I've seen people play dedilho before, but never to such an advanced
>> degree as in Portugal.
>
> Did they use the flesh side or nail side for the strong beat in  
> Portugal?
> TIA
>
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
>


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[LUTE] Re: dedillo

[Doc Rossi]

The beginning of this clip focuses on Carlos Paredes' right hand.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gKnO_RwGhss


On Nov 2, 2007, at 11:38 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote:

> Yes, I got your reply yesterday. Very interesting. Did you see my  
> response? It went like this:
>
> Thanks Doc,
> Ah ha! So the interesting point would be where they change to and  
> from it, how they negotiate going from a down stroke as a strong  
> beat to an up stroke being the strong beat.
>
>
> On Nov 1, 2007, at 7:57 PM, Doc Rossi wrote:
>
>> Hi Ed,
>>
>> I think I misunderstood your question earlier. They use the flesh  
>> side of the nail for the strong beat - the stroke towards the body.
>>
>> Doc
>>
>> On Oct 31, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 31, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Doc Rossi wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've seen people play dedilho before, but never to such an advanced
>>>> degree as in Portugal.
>>>
>>> Did they use the flesh side or nail side for the strong beat in  
>>> Portugal?
>>> TIA
>>>
>>> Ed Durbrow
>>> Saitama, Japan
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
>


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[LUTE] Re: dedillo

[Doc Rossi]

a site devoted to Carlos Paredes with other views of his technique:

http://www.cidadevirtual.pt/cdl/carlosparedes.html



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Re: Duets in guitar notation?

[doc rossi]

> you
> must put every rhythm mark in place, even on the rests, before saving 
> as a
> midi file or Finale will interpret things very differently. It will 
> still
> playback with the correct rhythm, but the notes will be laid out very
> differently than you'd expect. This is especially true if a piece 
> begins
> with a pickup from the end of a first measure. That pickup note 
> becomes the
> first note of the first measure and from there on it's Katie bar the 
> door.
> So include all rhythm marks in your tablature.

You should also be careful about empty measures - make sure they are 
the correct value rather than the default.



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string wire

[doc rossi]

Does anyone know a good shop in Paris for buying iron and brass string 
wire? I'll be there next Friday.

Doc Rossi



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[LUTE] Re: Doc Rossi website

[doc rossi]

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 10 November, 2005 21:09:17 GMT+01:00
> To: 
> Subject: [CITTERN] Doc Rossi website
> Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> Dear cittern friends,
>
> Doc Rossi's webpage can now be found on the www.musicintime.co.uk  
> website.
> There can be found an introductory overview of various citterns,  
> with tuning
> chart, an academic essay on the cittern/guittar in Colonial  
> America, the
> Forward from his cittern tutor, and links to his recordings. More  
> scores and
> mp3 files will follow in time, so stay tuned.
>
> I'm really pleased with the way Music In Time is developing, and  
> especially
> pleased that we have contributors of the quality of Doc Rossi.
>
> Rob MacKillop
> www.musicintime.co.uk
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>