Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/4/2 Paul A. Rubin ru...@msu.edu

 Rich Shepard wrote:


  More to the point, with a forum you have to go to it and pull then
 information to your machine; with a mail list, the information is pushed
 to
 your machine and all you need do is handle it as you wish.


 Not necessarily.  I'm subscribed to a few forums via RSS.  Posts are pushed
 to my mail client (Thunderbird).  If I want to reply, though, I have to go
 the forum in a web browser (typically by clicking a link in the RSS message)
 and, if it doesn't remember me, log in.  So posting is not as easy as with a
 mailing list (I get most of my mailing lists as news feeds), but (repeating
 myself) I can usually skim the content of an entire thread on one web page
 in a forum, which is much easier than with news feeds.  (I handle this list,
 for example, essentially by skipping all lengthy threads unless the subject
 line is *really* compelling.)

 I wonder if anyone has software that can integrate a forum with an existing
 mail list (or news feed)?

 /Paul

 Google Groups displays news groups in flat long threads, rolling already
reader messages like GMAIL do. But Google Groups do not have other news
server that these in USENET and own Google's groups. You can create your own
as far as I remember, but I did not find functionality to take from GMANE
for example.


-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
gg: 1624001
  http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/4/2 Paul A. Rubin ru...@msu.edu

 Rich Shepard wrote:


  More to the point, with a forum you have to go to it and pull then
 information to your machine; with a mail list, the information is pushed
 to
 your machine and all you need do is handle it as you wish.


 Not necessarily.  I'm subscribed to a few forums via RSS.  Posts are pushed
 to my mail client (Thunderbird).  If I want to reply, though, I have to go
 the forum in a web browser (typically by clicking a link in the RSS message)
 and, if it doesn't remember me, log in.  So posting is not as easy as with a
 mailing list (I get most of my mailing lists as news feeds), but (repeating
 myself) I can usually skim the content of an entire thread on one web page
 in a forum, which is much easier than with news feeds.  (I handle this list,
 for example, essentially by skipping all lengthy threads unless the subject
 line is *really* compelling.)

 I wonder if anyone has software that can integrate a forum with an existing
 mail list (or news feed)?

 /Paul

 Google Groups displays news groups in flat long threads, rolling already
reader messages like GMAIL do. But Google Groups do not have other news
server that these in USENET and own Google's groups. You can create your own
as far as I remember, but I did not find functionality to take from GMANE
for example.


-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
gg: 1624001
  http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/4/2 Paul A. Rubin 

> Rich Shepard wrote:
>
>
>>  More to the point, with a forum you have to go to it and pull then
>> information to your machine; with a mail list, the information is pushed
>> to
>> your machine and all you need do is handle it as you wish.
>>
>>
> Not necessarily.  I'm subscribed to a few forums via RSS.  Posts are pushed
> to my mail client (Thunderbird).  If I want to reply, though, I have to go
> the forum in a web browser (typically by clicking a link in the RSS message)
> and, if it doesn't remember me, log in.  So posting is not as easy as with a
> mailing list (I get most of my mailing lists as news feeds), but (repeating
> myself) I can usually skim the content of an entire thread on one web page
> in a forum, which is much easier than with news feeds.  (I handle this list,
> for example, essentially by skipping all lengthy threads unless the subject
> line is *really* compelling.)
>
> I wonder if anyone has software that can integrate a forum with an existing
> mail list (or news feed)?
>
> /Paul
>
> Google Groups displays news groups in flat long threads, rolling already
reader messages like GMAIL do. But Google Groups do not have other news
server that these in USENET and own Google's groups. You can create your own
as far as I remember, but I did not find functionality to take from GMANE
for example.


-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
gg: 1624001
  http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Paul A. Rubin]

Rich Shepard wrote:



  More to the point, with a forum you have to go to it and pull then
information to your machine; with a mail list, the information is pushed to
your machine and all you need do is handle it as you wish.



Not necessarily.  I'm subscribed to a few forums via RSS.  Posts are 
pushed to my mail client (Thunderbird).  If I want to reply, though, I 
have to go the forum in a web browser (typically by clicking a link in 
the RSS message) and, if it doesn't remember me, log in.  So posting is 
not as easy as with a mailing list (I get most of my mailing lists as 
news feeds), but (repeating myself) I can usually skim the content of an 
entire thread on one web page in a forum, which is much easier than with 
news feeds.  (I handle this list, for example, essentially by skipping 
all lengthy threads unless the subject line is *really* compelling.)


I wonder if anyone has software that can integrate a forum with an 
existing mail list (or news feed)?


/Paul

Re: LyX Forum?

[Paul A. Rubin]

Rich Shepard wrote:



  More to the point, with a forum you have to go to it and pull then
information to your machine; with a mail list, the information is pushed to
your machine and all you need do is handle it as you wish.



Not necessarily.  I'm subscribed to a few forums via RSS.  Posts are 
pushed to my mail client (Thunderbird).  If I want to reply, though, I 
have to go the forum in a web browser (typically by clicking a link in 
the RSS message) and, if it doesn't remember me, log in.  So posting is 
not as easy as with a mailing list (I get most of my mailing lists as 
news feeds), but (repeating myself) I can usually skim the content of an 
entire thread on one web page in a forum, which is much easier than with 
news feeds.  (I handle this list, for example, essentially by skipping 
all lengthy threads unless the subject line is *really* compelling.)


I wonder if anyone has software that can integrate a forum with an 
existing mail list (or news feed)?


/Paul

Re: LyX Forum?

[Paul A. Rubin]

Rich Shepard wrote:



  More to the point, with a forum you have to go to it and pull then
information to your machine; with a mail list, the information is pushed to
your machine and all you need do is handle it as you wish.



Not necessarily.  I'm subscribed to a few forums via RSS.  Posts are 
pushed to my mail client (Thunderbird).  If I want to reply, though, I 
have to go the forum in a web browser (typically by clicking a link in 
the RSS message) and, if it doesn't remember me, log in.  So posting is 
not as easy as with a mailing list (I get most of my mailing lists as 
news feeds), but (repeating myself) I can usually skim the content of an 
entire thread on one web page in a forum, which is much easier than with 
news feeds.  (I handle this list, for example, essentially by skipping 
all lengthy threads unless the subject line is *really* compelling.)


I wonder if anyone has software that can integrate a forum with an 
existing mail list (or news feed)?


/Paul

Re: LyX Forum?

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Nikos Alexandris nikos.alexand...@felis.uni-freiburg.de writes:
 Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
 the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
 place as it should be.

Smart mail readers do not use the subject only to see threads.

JMarc

Re: LyX Forum?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-29, Piero Faustini wrote:

 I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum. I mean,
 the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users.

Because most people here want it as it is. And many people on this list
regard themselfs common users.

 (I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in
 my mailbox).

If you don't want these, you can unsubscribe from the list and use
GMANE exclusively (I do).

 A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better 

http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists#toc4 says:

  Alternately, if you prefer a forum-like web-based interface to the
  users' list, check us out on our `Nabble page
  http://www.nabble.com/LyX---Users-f28347.html`_ [nabble.com]. 

so this seems possible (it did not work for me, endless loading and no
content shown).

 There's a LyX forum in LaTeX community but it's not as active as this 
 discussion list; 

So it seems not so many common users prefer the forum.
Also, it seems odd to split the ressources. The most impressive thing
about this list is that you get fast and to-the-point response from
power users and developers. And these seem to have a strong preference
for the mail list (much faster working once set up). An easily
accessible forum without competent help would be sensless.


 anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted something for this
 list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because they didn't 
 know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.

So the link to Nabble should either be augmented with an
explanation/warning or just removed.


I agree that a side-bar link saying Mailing Lists / Forum can raise
expectations that are not met by linked page http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists.

IMO, this page should contain a section 

Web interfaces / Forum
--

that points to the web based GMANE interface 
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.editors.lyx.general
(and maybe the Nabble as well with a description on how to post there).

Günter

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/31 Nikos Alexandris nikos.alexand...@felis.uni-freiburg.de:
 On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 23:05 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
 On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:

  when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
  ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
  drawback.

 When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure one out, 
 I
 reply one more time to the thread and append SOLVED to the subject. That's
 a pretty commonly known technique recommended by ESR:

 http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup

 But all too few people choose to use it.


 Thanks Steve. I didn't know it works like that.

 Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
 the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
 place as it should be.

It should work in a way that Steve describe but often works like Nikos
said. I my case when you change the subject GMAIL treats that message
as new thread, that is way I do not like changing subjects.

I do not know who can I bomb with a feature request for more
intelligent thread merge for messages from discussion lists. There is
special marker in message headers to do that - GMAIL ignores that.
That's a shame bug.

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
 gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/30 Paul A. Rubin ru...@msu.edu:
[...]
 One advantage that I think a forum might have over the current list/group
 structure is that on most forums (at least the forums I visit), I can scroll
 down a thread and see all the message text in one gulp.  With a long thread,
 such as this one, I need to access each message separately to read it, and
 I'm much too lazy for that.

:-) That is advantage of GMAIL that you can do that, in opposite to
lack of proper tracking when message arrives with changed subject :-(

I would like to see at least manual joining of message into threads.
-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
 gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:


I agree that a side-bar link saying Mailing Lists / Forum can raise
expectations that are not met by linked page http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists.

IMO, this page should contain a section


I sent the password for editing the web page to Guenter off-list, so maybe 
we'll see improvement on this page:-)


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Manveru manv...@... writes:

 I do not know who can I bomb with a feature request for more
 intelligent thread merge for messages from discussion lists. There is
 special marker in message headers to do that - GMAIL ignores that.
 That's a shame bug.

It's me who casted a evil spell on the Mailing List, or what?
GMANE since yesterday started to behave exactly as you told GMAIL does: now the 
thread I started is split in several ones!!! In Italy I would be called a 
menagramo (something like bad luck antenna) and banned from human society.
To our (serious) discussion: Manveru, I hope you didn't feel negative 
vibrations in my criticism to your answer, in fact I found it very polite and 
constructive.
I tried to express a need that I think could be the *silent* majority's one, 
without, as someone requested, give data on it but based on what I can see 
today in the internet and in my department of History.
For instance, I would like to convert to LyX my supervisor (we are 
musicologists) which is, in his 55, a great academic and an exceptionally 
opened and curious mind. But his relationship with the IT is much more similar 
to my 19y old sister's one than to any other person here, and I'm sure he's NO 
exception in our humanistic field, being the IT and computers pros (and much 
much much more the old way pros) THE rare exceptions in departments similar 
to mine. If some researcher in my Faculty uses the internet in order to look 
for information, no matter his age, he uses it in the same way of a 15 years 
old boy, *** because they started using it at the same moment. And I guess we 
can't call him a neostrada child.
Arguments that claims forum is not good enough because the only existing LyX 
forum has just a few contributors is too much similar to saying why caring 
about public transport? Nobody uses it!: public transport will be efficient, 
fast, reliable, cheap and widely used when cars will be banned and money 
inverted in it, NOT and NEVER before. In the same way, until the best LyX 
contributors and LyX helping hands use mailing lists, any forum will be almost 
useless. In fact, I don't use it, just reply once in a while to stuck people 
about very very simple things.  
With this, I don't want to force anyone in changing its habits. On the other 
hand, thanks to people like you I understood the advantages and philosophy of 
lists, although new and basic LyX users are still unlikely to have an easy 
first access to this very one. If there's something I can do to make it a bit 
easier for them (most of all because I've been recently in the same trouble), 
please tell me.
Piero

P.S. One thing could be to add to the ml/forum page a link to

 http://www.latex-community.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=19 

for newbies specifying that ML is much better to ask for more than basic 
issues. Similar links to other language specific forums (if existing) could be 
even better if we recommend to come back to ML once issues grow serious.

*** Jstor or similars turned out to be really interesting for humanists not 
more than a bunch of months ago

Re: LyX Forum?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-31, Christian Ridderström wrote:
 ---310244551-99825937-1238496499=:12262
 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

 On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:

 I agree that a side-bar link saying Mailing Lists / Forum can raise
 expectations that are not met by the linked page
...

 I sent the password for editing the web page to Guenter off-list, so maybe 
 we'll see improvement on this page:-)

I did the proposed edits to http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists. Please view
and comment.

Günter

Re: LyX Forum?

[Helge Hafting]

Piero Faustini wrote:
Hello, 
I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.


The mailing list is run by volunteers, and volunteers participate.

We use a mailing list because we want to. Therefore, no amount of 
arguments can change that. The list can't be closed by force - although 
it can die out if people disappear.


I prefer forums for stuff that I don't track - when I just pop in a 
couple of times per year with some very specific problem. Subscribing to 
a list is overdoing it in such cases.  But I want to keep a closer eye 
on LyX, so the mailing list approach works better. I can delete 
uninteresting threads and keep interesting stuff around as I wish. And 
my email client tells me how many new messages there is in _all_ the 
lists I read. I don't have to go around and check anything. I am not 
going to either.


Now, if you want to look at LyX stuff only occationally, consider 
looking at the web archives. Such as http://marc.info/?l=lyx-users
Here you can read anything in a web interface, without the 
difficulties of subscribing.


I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users 


I wouldn't call it hard. Subscribe - and the messages keeps coming to 
you. Sending mail to lyx-users@lists.lyx.org isn't hard either, it is 
simply another email address. Put it in your contact list if that makes 
it easier. Another tip: many set up their email to sort mailing list 
messages into a folder of their own, so they don't fill up the inbox.


The instructions are on the web. Subscribing takes a little effort, but 
I wouldn't call it hard to do.


If you prefer a web browser, get a free webmail account just for the 
mailing list. That way you won't have to set up mail sorting either.


(I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in my 
mailbox).
A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we use 
a normal forum site?


Several Lyx forums actually exists.
http://www.latex-community.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=19
http://n2.nabble.com/LyX-f475766.html
http://www.karakas-online.de/forum/viewforum.php?f=10

But you can't force them on people. Those who prefer a list will keep 
running and using a list. If none of the forum people can provide 
adequate help - well, come to the list then.  How to use the list is 
described on the lyx website, or so I hope. Or figure things out and 
become a forum-based expert yourself.


There's a LyX forum in LaTeX community but it's not as active as this 
discussion list; anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted something 
for this list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because they didn't 
know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.
I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be 


Considering users would be the policy if LyX were a company product. But 
then, companies can pay people to run and monitor a forum that they 
don't prefer to use voluntarily. LyX is run by volunteers, who do what 
they themselves want. We make LyX for ourselves - and happens to make it 
available for others too. Gaining market share doesn't matter so much 
for a free product. It is cool but not necessary.



simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???


LaTeX is older and has a bigger user base. So there are enough people 
for several forums - as well as several mailing lists.


Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless) way 
to discourage LyX users.


The information is available. And to be blunt - if a user can't be 
bothered with the list, then we can't be bothered to help. We volunteer 
some time for this, we aren't paid. We don't have customers that are 
always right. We help fellow users now and then, but don't jump through 
hoops to do so.


Helge Hafting

Re: LyX Forum?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 02:38:21AM +0200, Nikos Alexandris wrote:
 One thing that is not that good in MLs are LONG threads as the current
 one. It's hard to follow sometimes and people tend to post irrelevant
 stuff on a ML-thread or change the subject of it so a new thread starts
 when it's not required.

Sound like a deficiency in your mail client. Having a certain Subject
is not a criteria for being a thread, that's what Message-Id and
References are made for.

With mailing lists, the client have all the power to filter, sort,
whatever. With forums, you are at the mercy of the forum admin. If he
deeems sorting unimportant, well, then you can't sort. Period.

 In addition, it's not possible to mark ML-threads as SOLVED. The
 latter is, in my humble opinion, a big drawback.

Again, a deficiency in the mail client you use. (Esc t D in mutt e.g.)

 Fora require more energy to maintain but provide means to organize
 information better.

On the contrary. In a forum you are bound to use whatever the forum
provides, and you have to change habits if you go to another forum.

With mails, you can decide what client to use, and there are dozens if
not hundreds of them. And they will behave on every mailing list the
same.

 Of course, the LyX-wiki is very good which fulfills
 most of what the ML doesn't satisfy.
 
 That said, I think a ML + Wiki are enough. Without the wiki, the forum
 would be a must-have.

We survived more than a decade without wiki and forum rather well.
(And lucky us got a wiki, not a forum later ;-})

All in all I have the impression that Forums are hyped nowadays because
people lost the ability to choose (and configure...) mail clients or
live in a the net is a browser world.

When I think about it, I might have lost that ability, too. But I keep
copying my mail client setup to new machines ;-)

Andre'

Re: LyX Forum?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 07:08:23AM +0200, Nikos Alexandris wrote:
 On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 23:05 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
  On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:
  
   when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
   ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
   drawback.
  
  When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure
  one out, I reply one more time to the thread and append SOLVED to
  the subject. That's a pretty commonly known technique recommended by
  ESR:
  
  http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup
  
  But all too few people choose to use it.
  
  SteveT
 
 Thanks Steve. I didn't know it works like that.
 
 Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
 the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
 place as it should be.

Everything, including all grouping is done on client side. So it is your
choice (of a mail client and/or configuration) whether a changed subject
is shown as a new thread.

Andre'

Re: LyX Forum?

[Rich Shepard]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Andre Poenitz wrote:


With mailing lists, the client have all the power to filter, sort,
whatever. With forums, you are at the mercy of the forum admin. If he
deeems sorting unimportant, well, then you can't sort. Period.


  Yup. Alping (formerly pine), mutt, and elm all do this.


In addition, it's not possible to mark ML-threads as SOLVED. The
latter is, in my humble opinion, a big drawback.


Again, a deficiency in the mail client you use. (Esc t D in mutt e.g.)


  That's not a matter for the MUA, but for the message writer. It's a matter
of courtesy to append SOLVED, FIXED, or similar word to the end of the
subject line when appropriate. Heck, the MUA has no idea of the message's
content, but the writer does.


On the contrary. In a forum you are bound to use whatever the forum
provides, and you have to change habits if you go to another forum.

With mails, you can decide what client to use, and there are dozens if
not hundreds of them. And they will behave on every mailing list the
same.


  More to the point, with a forum you have to go to it and pull then
information to your machine; with a mail list, the information is pushed to
your machine and all you need do is handle it as you wish.


We survived more than a decade without wiki and forum rather well.
(And lucky us got a wiki, not a forum later ;-})


  Exceedingly well, in fact.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:

I did the proposed edits to http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists. Please view 
and comment.


Looks good, thanks.
Christian


Günter





--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Nikos Alexandris nikos.alexand...@felis.uni-freiburg.de writes:
 Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
 the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
 place as it should be.

Smart mail readers do not use the subject only to see threads.

JMarc

Re: LyX Forum?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-29, Piero Faustini wrote:

 I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum. I mean,
 the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users.

Because most people here want it as it is. And many people on this list
regard themselfs common users.

 (I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in
 my mailbox).

If you don't want these, you can unsubscribe from the list and use
GMANE exclusively (I do).

 A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better 

http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists#toc4 says:

  Alternately, if you prefer a forum-like web-based interface to the
  users' list, check us out on our `Nabble page
  http://www.nabble.com/LyX---Users-f28347.html`_ [nabble.com]. 

so this seems possible (it did not work for me, endless loading and no
content shown).

 There's a LyX forum in LaTeX community but it's not as active as this 
 discussion list; 

So it seems not so many common users prefer the forum.
Also, it seems odd to split the ressources. The most impressive thing
about this list is that you get fast and to-the-point response from
power users and developers. And these seem to have a strong preference
for the mail list (much faster working once set up). An easily
accessible forum without competent help would be sensless.


 anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted something for this
 list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because they didn't 
 know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.

So the link to Nabble should either be augmented with an
explanation/warning or just removed.


I agree that a side-bar link saying Mailing Lists / Forum can raise
expectations that are not met by linked page http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists.

IMO, this page should contain a section 

Web interfaces / Forum
--

that points to the web based GMANE interface 
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.editors.lyx.general
(and maybe the Nabble as well with a description on how to post there).

Günter

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/31 Nikos Alexandris nikos.alexand...@felis.uni-freiburg.de:
 On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 23:05 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
 On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:

  when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
  ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
  drawback.

 When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure one out, 
 I
 reply one more time to the thread and append SOLVED to the subject. That's
 a pretty commonly known technique recommended by ESR:

 http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup

 But all too few people choose to use it.


 Thanks Steve. I didn't know it works like that.

 Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
 the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
 place as it should be.

It should work in a way that Steve describe but often works like Nikos
said. I my case when you change the subject GMAIL treats that message
as new thread, that is way I do not like changing subjects.

I do not know who can I bomb with a feature request for more
intelligent thread merge for messages from discussion lists. There is
special marker in message headers to do that - GMAIL ignores that.
That's a shame bug.

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
 gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/30 Paul A. Rubin ru...@msu.edu:
[...]
 One advantage that I think a forum might have over the current list/group
 structure is that on most forums (at least the forums I visit), I can scroll
 down a thread and see all the message text in one gulp.  With a long thread,
 such as this one, I need to access each message separately to read it, and
 I'm much too lazy for that.

:-) That is advantage of GMAIL that you can do that, in opposite to
lack of proper tracking when message arrives with changed subject :-(

I would like to see at least manual joining of message into threads.
-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
 gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:


I agree that a side-bar link saying Mailing Lists / Forum can raise
expectations that are not met by linked page http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists.

IMO, this page should contain a section


I sent the password for editing the web page to Guenter off-list, so maybe 
we'll see improvement on this page:-)


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Manveru manv...@... writes:

 I do not know who can I bomb with a feature request for more
 intelligent thread merge for messages from discussion lists. There is
 special marker in message headers to do that - GMAIL ignores that.
 That's a shame bug.

It's me who casted a evil spell on the Mailing List, or what?
GMANE since yesterday started to behave exactly as you told GMAIL does: now the 
thread I started is split in several ones!!! In Italy I would be called a 
menagramo (something like bad luck antenna) and banned from human society.
To our (serious) discussion: Manveru, I hope you didn't feel negative 
vibrations in my criticism to your answer, in fact I found it very polite and 
constructive.
I tried to express a need that I think could be the *silent* majority's one, 
without, as someone requested, give data on it but based on what I can see 
today in the internet and in my department of History.
For instance, I would like to convert to LyX my supervisor (we are 
musicologists) which is, in his 55, a great academic and an exceptionally 
opened and curious mind. But his relationship with the IT is much more similar 
to my 19y old sister's one than to any other person here, and I'm sure he's NO 
exception in our humanistic field, being the IT and computers pros (and much 
much much more the old way pros) THE rare exceptions in departments similar 
to mine. If some researcher in my Faculty uses the internet in order to look 
for information, no matter his age, he uses it in the same way of a 15 years 
old boy, *** because they started using it at the same moment. And I guess we 
can't call him a neostrada child.
Arguments that claims forum is not good enough because the only existing LyX 
forum has just a few contributors is too much similar to saying why caring 
about public transport? Nobody uses it!: public transport will be efficient, 
fast, reliable, cheap and widely used when cars will be banned and money 
inverted in it, NOT and NEVER before. In the same way, until the best LyX 
contributors and LyX helping hands use mailing lists, any forum will be almost 
useless. In fact, I don't use it, just reply once in a while to stuck people 
about very very simple things.  
With this, I don't want to force anyone in changing its habits. On the other 
hand, thanks to people like you I understood the advantages and philosophy of 
lists, although new and basic LyX users are still unlikely to have an easy 
first access to this very one. If there's something I can do to make it a bit 
easier for them (most of all because I've been recently in the same trouble), 
please tell me.
Piero

P.S. One thing could be to add to the ml/forum page a link to

 http://www.latex-community.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=19 

for newbies specifying that ML is much better to ask for more than basic 
issues. Similar links to other language specific forums (if existing) could be 
even better if we recommend to come back to ML once issues grow serious.

*** Jstor or similars turned out to be really interesting for humanists not 
more than a bunch of months ago

Re: LyX Forum?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-31, Christian Ridderström wrote:
 ---310244551-99825937-1238496499=:12262
 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

 On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:

 I agree that a side-bar link saying Mailing Lists / Forum can raise
 expectations that are not met by the linked page
...

 I sent the password for editing the web page to Guenter off-list, so maybe 
 we'll see improvement on this page:-)

I did the proposed edits to http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists. Please view
and comment.

Günter

Re: LyX Forum?

[Helge Hafting]

Piero Faustini wrote:
Hello, 
I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.


The mailing list is run by volunteers, and volunteers participate.

We use a mailing list because we want to. Therefore, no amount of 
arguments can change that. The list can't be closed by force - although 
it can die out if people disappear.


I prefer forums for stuff that I don't track - when I just pop in a 
couple of times per year with some very specific problem. Subscribing to 
a list is overdoing it in such cases.  But I want to keep a closer eye 
on LyX, so the mailing list approach works better. I can delete 
uninteresting threads and keep interesting stuff around as I wish. And 
my email client tells me how many new messages there is in _all_ the 
lists I read. I don't have to go around and check anything. I am not 
going to either.


Now, if you want to look at LyX stuff only occationally, consider 
looking at the web archives. Such as http://marc.info/?l=lyx-users
Here you can read anything in a web interface, without the 
difficulties of subscribing.


I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users 


I wouldn't call it hard. Subscribe - and the messages keeps coming to 
you. Sending mail to lyx-users@lists.lyx.org isn't hard either, it is 
simply another email address. Put it in your contact list if that makes 
it easier. Another tip: many set up their email to sort mailing list 
messages into a folder of their own, so they don't fill up the inbox.


The instructions are on the web. Subscribing takes a little effort, but 
I wouldn't call it hard to do.


If you prefer a web browser, get a free webmail account just for the 
mailing list. That way you won't have to set up mail sorting either.


(I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in my 
mailbox).
A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we use 
a normal forum site?


Several Lyx forums actually exists.
http://www.latex-community.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=19
http://n2.nabble.com/LyX-f475766.html
http://www.karakas-online.de/forum/viewforum.php?f=10

But you can't force them on people. Those who prefer a list will keep 
running and using a list. If none of the forum people can provide 
adequate help - well, come to the list then.  How to use the list is 
described on the lyx website, or so I hope. Or figure things out and 
become a forum-based expert yourself.


There's a LyX forum in LaTeX community but it's not as active as this 
discussion list; anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted something 
for this list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because they didn't 
know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.
I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be 


Considering users would be the policy if LyX were a company product. But 
then, companies can pay people to run and monitor a forum that they 
don't prefer to use voluntarily. LyX is run by volunteers, who do what 
they themselves want. We make LyX for ourselves - and happens to make it 
available for others too. Gaining market share doesn't matter so much 
for a free product. It is cool but not necessary.



simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???


LaTeX is older and has a bigger user base. So there are enough people 
for several forums - as well as several mailing lists.


Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless) way 
to discourage LyX users.


The information is available. And to be blunt - if a user can't be 
bothered with the list, then we can't be bothered to help. We volunteer 
some time for this, we aren't paid. We don't have customers that are 
always right. We help fellow users now and then, but don't jump through 
hoops to do so.


Helge Hafting

Re: LyX Forum?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 02:38:21AM +0200, Nikos Alexandris wrote:
 One thing that is not that good in MLs are LONG threads as the current
 one. It's hard to follow sometimes and people tend to post irrelevant
 stuff on a ML-thread or change the subject of it so a new thread starts
 when it's not required.

Sound like a deficiency in your mail client. Having a certain Subject
is not a criteria for being a thread, that's what Message-Id and
References are made for.

With mailing lists, the client have all the power to filter, sort,
whatever. With forums, you are at the mercy of the forum admin. If he
deeems sorting unimportant, well, then you can't sort. Period.

 In addition, it's not possible to mark ML-threads as SOLVED. The
 latter is, in my humble opinion, a big drawback.

Again, a deficiency in the mail client you use. (Esc t D in mutt e.g.)

 Fora require more energy to maintain but provide means to organize
 information better.

On the contrary. In a forum you are bound to use whatever the forum
provides, and you have to change habits if you go to another forum.

With mails, you can decide what client to use, and there are dozens if
not hundreds of them. And they will behave on every mailing list the
same.

 Of course, the LyX-wiki is very good which fulfills
 most of what the ML doesn't satisfy.
 
 That said, I think a ML + Wiki are enough. Without the wiki, the forum
 would be a must-have.

We survived more than a decade without wiki and forum rather well.
(And lucky us got a wiki, not a forum later ;-})

All in all I have the impression that Forums are hyped nowadays because
people lost the ability to choose (and configure...) mail clients or
live in a the net is a browser world.

When I think about it, I might have lost that ability, too. But I keep
copying my mail client setup to new machines ;-)

Andre'

Re: LyX Forum?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 07:08:23AM +0200, Nikos Alexandris wrote:
 On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 23:05 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
  On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:
  
   when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
   ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
   drawback.
  
  When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure
  one out, I reply one more time to the thread and append SOLVED to
  the subject. That's a pretty commonly known technique recommended by
  ESR:
  
  http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup
  
  But all too few people choose to use it.
  
  SteveT
 
 Thanks Steve. I didn't know it works like that.
 
 Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
 the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
 place as it should be.

Everything, including all grouping is done on client side. So it is your
choice (of a mail client and/or configuration) whether a changed subject
is shown as a new thread.

Andre'

Re: LyX Forum?

[Rich Shepard]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Andre Poenitz wrote:


With mailing lists, the client have all the power to filter, sort,
whatever. With forums, you are at the mercy of the forum admin. If he
deeems sorting unimportant, well, then you can't sort. Period.


  Yup. Alping (formerly pine), mutt, and elm all do this.


In addition, it's not possible to mark ML-threads as SOLVED. The
latter is, in my humble opinion, a big drawback.


Again, a deficiency in the mail client you use. (Esc t D in mutt e.g.)


  That's not a matter for the MUA, but for the message writer. It's a matter
of courtesy to append SOLVED, FIXED, or similar word to the end of the
subject line when appropriate. Heck, the MUA has no idea of the message's
content, but the writer does.


On the contrary. In a forum you are bound to use whatever the forum
provides, and you have to change habits if you go to another forum.

With mails, you can decide what client to use, and there are dozens if
not hundreds of them. And they will behave on every mailing list the
same.


  More to the point, with a forum you have to go to it and pull then
information to your machine; with a mail list, the information is pushed to
your machine and all you need do is handle it as you wish.


We survived more than a decade without wiki and forum rather well.
(And lucky us got a wiki, not a forum later ;-})


  Exceedingly well, in fact.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:

I did the proposed edits to http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists. Please view 
and comment.


Looks good, thanks.
Christian


Günter





--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Nikos Alexandris  writes:
> Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
> the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
> place as it should be.

Smart mail readers do not use the subject only to see threads.

JMarc

Re: LyX Forum?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-29, Piero Faustini wrote:

> I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum. I mean,
> the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users.

Because most people here want it as it is. And many people on this list
regard themselfs common users.

> (I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in
> my mailbox).

If you don't want these, you can unsubscribe from the list and use
GMANE exclusively (I do).

> A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better 

http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists#toc4 says:

  Alternately, if you prefer a forum-like web-based interface to the
  users' list, check us out on our `Nabble page
  <http://www.nabble.com/LyX---Users-f28347.html>`_ [nabble.com]. 

so this seems possible (it did not work for me, endless loading and no
content shown).

> There's a LyX forum in "LaTeX community" but it's not as active as this 
> discussion list; 

So it seems not so many "common users" prefer the forum.
Also, it seems odd to split the ressources. The most impressive thing
about this list is that you get fast and to-the-point response from
power users and developers. And these seem to have a strong preference
for the mail list (much faster working once set up). An easily
accessible forum without competent help would be sensless.


> anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted something for this
> list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because they didn't 
> know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.

So the link to Nabble should either be augmented with an
explanation/warning or just removed.


I agree that a side-bar link saying "Mailing Lists / Forum" can raise
expectations that are not met by linked page http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists.

IMO, this page should contain a section 

Web interfaces / Forum
--

that points to the web based GMANE interface 
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.editors.lyx.general
(and maybe the Nabble as well with a description on how to post there).

Günter

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/31 Nikos Alexandris :
> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 23:05 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:
>>
>> > when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
>> > ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
>> > drawback.
>>
>> When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure one out, 
>> I
>> reply one more time to the thread and append  to the subject. That's
>> a pretty commonly known technique recommended by ESR:
>>
>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup
>>
>> But all too few people choose to use it.
>>
>
> Thanks Steve. I didn't know it works like that.
>
> Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
> the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
> place as it should be.

It should work in a way that Steve describe but often works like Nikos
said. I my case when you change the subject GMAIL treats that message
as new thread, that is way I do not like changing subjects.

I do not know who can I bomb with a feature request for more
intelligent thread merge for messages from discussion lists. There is
special marker in message headers to do that - GMAIL ignores that.
That's a shame bug.

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
 gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/30 Paul A. Rubin :
[...]
> One advantage that I think a forum might have over the current list/group
> structure is that on most forums (at least the forums I visit), I can scroll
> down a thread and see all the message text in one gulp.  With a long thread,
> such as this one, I need to access each message separately to read it, and
> I'm much too lazy for that.

:-) That is advantage of GMAIL that you can do that, in opposite to
lack of proper tracking when message arrives with changed subject :-(

I would like to see at least manual joining of message into threads.
-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
 gg: 1624001
   http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:


I agree that a side-bar link saying "Mailing Lists / Forum" can raise
expectations that are not met by linked page http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists.

IMO, this page should contain a section


I sent the password for editing the web page to Guenter off-list, so maybe 
we'll see improvement on this page:-)


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Manveru <manv...@...> writes:

> I do not know who can I bomb with a feature request for more
> intelligent thread merge for messages from discussion lists. There is
> special marker in message headers to do that - GMAIL ignores that.
> That's a shame bug.

It's me who casted a evil spell on the Mailing List, or what?
GMANE since yesterday started to behave exactly as you told GMAIL does: now the 
thread I started is split in several ones!!! In Italy I would be called a 
"menagramo" (something like "bad luck antenna") and banned from human society.
To our (serious) discussion: Manveru, I hope you didn't feel negative 
vibrations in my criticism to your answer, in fact I found it very polite and 
constructive.
I tried to express a need that I think could be the *silent* majority's one, 
without, as someone requested, give "data" on it but based on what I can see 
today in the internet and in my department of History.
For instance, I would like to convert to LyX my supervisor (we are 
musicologists) which is, in his 55, a great academic and an exceptionally 
opened and curious mind. But his relationship with the IT is much more similar 
to my 19y old sister's one than to any other person here, and I'm sure he's NO 
exception in our humanistic field, being the IT and computers "pros" (and much 
much much more the "old way" pros) THE rare exceptions in departments similar 
to mine. If some researcher in my Faculty uses the internet in order to look 
for information, no matter his age, he uses it in the same way of a 15 years 
old boy, *** because they started using it at the same moment. And I guess we 
can't call him a "neostrada child".
Arguments that claims forum is not good enough because the only existing LyX 
forum has just a few contributors is too much similar to saying "why caring 
about public transport? Nobody uses it!": public transport will be efficient, 
fast, reliable, cheap and widely used when cars will be banned and money 
inverted in it, NOT and NEVER before. In the same way, until the best LyX 
contributors and LyX helping hands use mailing lists, any forum will be almost 
useless. In fact, I don't use it, just reply once in a while to stuck people 
about very very simple things.  
With this, I don't want to force anyone in changing its habits. On the other 
hand, thanks to people like you I understood the advantages and philosophy of 
lists, although new and basic LyX users are still unlikely to have an easy 
first access to this very one. If there's something I can do to make it a bit 
easier for them (most of all because I've been recently in the same trouble), 
please tell me.
Piero

P.S. One thing could be to add to the ml/forum page a link to

 http://www.latex-community.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=19 

for newbies specifying that ML is much better to ask for more than basic 
issues. Similar links to other language specific forums (if existing) could be 
even better if we recommend to come back to ML once issues grow serious.

*** Jstor or similars turned out to be really interesting for humanists not 
more than a bunch of months ago

Re: LyX Forum?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-03-31, Christian Ridderström wrote:
> ---310244551-99825937-1238496499=:12262
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:

>> I agree that a side-bar link saying "Mailing Lists / Forum" can raise
>> expectations that are not met by the linked page
...

> I sent the password for editing the web page to Guenter off-list, so maybe 
> we'll see improvement on this page:-)

I did the proposed edits to http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists. Please view
and comment.

Günter

Re: LyX Forum?

[Helge Hafting]

Piero Faustini wrote:
Hello, 
I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.


The mailing list is run by volunteers, and volunteers participate.

We use a mailing list because we want to. Therefore, no amount of 
arguments can change that. The list can't be closed by force - although 
it can die out if people disappear.


I prefer forums for stuff that I don't track - when I just pop in a 
couple of times per year with some very specific problem. Subscribing to 
a list is overdoing it in such cases.  But I want to keep a closer eye 
on LyX, so the mailing list approach works better. I can delete 
uninteresting threads and keep interesting stuff around as I wish. And 
my email client tells me how many new messages there is in _all_ the 
lists I read. I don't have to go around and check anything. I am not 
going to either.


Now, if you want to look at LyX stuff only occationally, consider 
looking at the web archives. Such as http://marc.info/?l=lyx-users
Here you can read anything in a web interface, without the 
"difficulties" of subscribing.


I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users 


I wouldn't call it hard. Subscribe - and the messages keeps coming to 
you. Sending mail to lyx-users@lists.lyx.org isn't hard either, it is 
simply another email address. Put it in your contact list if that makes 
it easier. Another tip: many set up their email to sort mailing list 
messages into a folder of their own, so they don't fill up the inbox.


The instructions are on the web. Subscribing takes a little effort, but 
I wouldn't call it hard to do.


If you prefer a web browser, get a free webmail account just for the 
mailing list. That way you won't have to set up mail sorting either.


(I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in my 
mailbox).
A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we use 
a normal forum site?


Several Lyx forums actually exists.
http://www.latex-community.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=19
http://n2.nabble.com/LyX-f475766.html
http://www.karakas-online.de/forum/viewforum.php?f=10

But you can't force them on people. Those who prefer a list will keep 
running and using a list. If none of the forum people can provide 
adequate help - well, come to the list then.  How to use the list is 
described on the lyx website, or so I hope. Or figure things out and 
become a forum-based expert yourself.


There's a LyX forum in "LaTeX community" but it's not as active as this 
discussion list; anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted something 
for this list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because they didn't 
know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.
I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be 


Considering users would be the policy if LyX were a company product. But 
then, companies can pay people to run and monitor a forum that they 
don't prefer to use voluntarily. LyX is run by volunteers, who do what 
they themselves want. We make LyX for ourselves - and happens to make it 
available for others too. Gaining market share doesn't matter so much 
for a free product. It is cool but not necessary.



simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???


LaTeX is older and has a bigger user base. So there are enough people 
for several forums - as well as several mailing lists.


Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless) way 
to discourage LyX users.


The information is available. And to be blunt - if a user can't be 
bothered with the list, then we can't be bothered to help. We volunteer 
some time for this, we aren't paid. We don't have customers that "are 
always right." We help fellow users now and then, but don't jump through 
hoops to do so.


Helge Hafting

Re: LyX Forum?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 02:38:21AM +0200, Nikos Alexandris wrote:
> One thing that is not that good in MLs are LONG threads as the current
> one. It's hard to follow sometimes and people tend to post irrelevant
> stuff on a ML-thread or change the subject of it so a new thread starts
> when it's not required.

Sound like a deficiency in your mail client. Having a certain Subject
is not a criteria for being a thread, that's what Message-Id and
References are made for.

With mailing lists, the client have all the power to filter, sort,
whatever. With forums, you are at the mercy of the forum admin. If he
deeems sorting unimportant, well, then you can't sort. Period.

> In addition, it's not possible to mark ML-threads as SOLVED. The
> latter is, in my humble opinion, a big drawback.

Again, a deficiency in the mail client you use. (Esc t D in mutt e.g.)

> Fora require more energy to maintain but provide means to organize
> information better.

On the contrary. In a forum you are bound to use whatever the forum
provides, and you have to change habits if you go to another forum.

With mails, you can decide what client to use, and there are dozens if
not hundreds of them. And they will behave on every mailing list the
same.

> Of course, the LyX-wiki is very good which fulfills
> most of what the ML doesn't satisfy.
> 
> That said, I think a ML + Wiki are enough. Without the wiki, the forum
> would be a "must-have".

We survived more than a decade without wiki and forum rather well.
(And lucky us got a wiki, not a forum later ;-})

All in all I have the impression that Forums are hyped nowadays because
people lost the ability to choose (and configure...) mail clients or
live in a "the net is a browser world".

When I think about it, I might have lost that ability, too. But I keep
copying my mail client setup to new machines ;-)

Andre'

Re: LyX Forum?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 07:08:23AM +0200, Nikos Alexandris wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 23:05 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:
> > 
> > > when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
> > > ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
> > > drawback.
> > 
> > When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure
> > one out, I reply one more time to the thread and append  to
> > the subject. That's a pretty commonly known technique recommended by
> > ESR:
> > 
> > http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup
> > 
> > But all too few people choose to use it.
> > 
> > SteveT
> 
> Thanks Steve. I didn't know it works like that.
> 
> Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
> the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
> place as it should be.

Everything, including all grouping is done on client side. So it is your
choice (of a mail client and/or configuration) whether a changed subject
is shown as a new thread.

Andre'

Re: LyX Forum?

[Rich Shepard]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Andre Poenitz wrote:


With mailing lists, the client have all the power to filter, sort,
whatever. With forums, you are at the mercy of the forum admin. If he
deeems sorting unimportant, well, then you can't sort. Period.


  Yup. Alping (formerly pine), mutt, and elm all do this.


In addition, it's not possible to mark ML-threads as SOLVED. The
latter is, in my humble opinion, a big drawback.


Again, a deficiency in the mail client you use. (Esc t D in mutt e.g.)


  That's not a matter for the MUA, but for the message writer. It's a matter
of courtesy to append SOLVED, FIXED, or similar word to the end of the
subject line when appropriate. Heck, the MUA has no idea of the message's
content, but the writer does.


On the contrary. In a forum you are bound to use whatever the forum
provides, and you have to change habits if you go to another forum.

With mails, you can decide what client to use, and there are dozens if
not hundreds of them. And they will behave on every mailing list the
same.


  More to the point, with a forum you have to go to it and pull then
information to your machine; with a mail list, the information is pushed to
your machine and all you need do is handle it as you wish.


We survived more than a decade without wiki and forum rather well.
(And lucky us got a wiki, not a forum later ;-})


  Exceedingly well, in fact.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:

I did the proposed edits to http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists. Please view 
and comment.


Looks good, thanks.
Christian


Günter





--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/30 Piero Faustini pierofaust...@hotmail.com

 

 Hello once again.

 I can't reply to all.
 [...]

Of course about children, I was pointing out that forums are VERY simple.
 And
 it's exactly what I was trying to explain: the list concept is VERY old
 (whatever this means). Yes, also e-mail is old, and almost every single
 human
 being uses it, but my 19-years old sister last week told me she doesn't
 care
 about e-mail since he has her favourite Web 2.0 communication basis: I find
 it
 terrible, but it is 2009 REALITY. (and BTW, speaking of
 intelligence/culture, I
 think my sister stays in the upper 5% of her age).


Somehow you replied yourself. I do not think in that case LyX is for your
sister, I think much more relevant tool for her is docs.google.com. It is
web based text editor able to produce HTML and PDF - quite nice.


 [...]At least, the smallest pieces of great wisdom are to
 be found in the mechanized habits of the million. To live in the mountain
 is
 not to live. The community should spread to as many people as possible,
 choosing the most popular, the easiest. Being aware of the gap with the
 younger
 and trying to understand him is the only way not to grow too old too soon.
 Saying that  neostrada children destroyed everything worth of the internet
 is
 perhaps being completely blind in front of the great revolutions the
 internet
 (or whatever its name will be) shows us, and is building thanks to THAT
 uncultured young boy. This revolution just started, and I can't say where
 it
 will go.


I do not know hot to express it precisely. I expect from others as I expect
from myself to be prepared to take the knowledge from others - teachers,
coworkers... Today I often feel that large number of people treats knowledge
as a necessary evil. You mentioned evolution of Web 2.0 culture and its
habits, but have you ever think about difference between level of its users
and its creators? Guys coding CMS, Wiki and other stuff still uses
maillists, even if there old. New tools are use to documenting (LyX has
Wiki) and buqtracking (LyX has bugzilla). Lists are easy to use for all
those geeks, becase they're faster, easier to read. I am sure that busy
proffesionals do not have time to read forums and they feel anger when they
have to spent time clicking all these slowly loading pages full of
advertisements.

 I miss that times before commercialized Internet.

 [...]
 I can't use mailing lists but I believe they are really smart. The last
 time I
 installed Thunderbird I think it was beta, but I was already sure I would
 have
 never and never save a single mail in my PCs: the future was the WEB and
 now
 it's the present, and I stay with the present, if I can't with the future.
 Full
 stop.


I have to write that: I think you choose your way of computing. You are very
good client for google products. But you are trying to convince couple
hunderd people that your way is the best. This does not work this way. You
can argue with us even with arguments as given below or all mentioned
ealier. Probably most of us will agree with you in many places. But this
will not lanuch a revolution causing LyX users moving to forums.



 I only can tell you that you should keep your eyes open: faster, wider
 communication is THE need of the present. I just gave voice to the majority
 of
 non-computer-geeks, non-technical/scientific academics which deserve a
 little
 more interest from the LaTeX community and most of all from LyX.
 [...]


I have eyes open widely. But I don't think I am looking in the same
direction as you. I am working on technologies which gives people like you
access to the internet wirelessly and I know what are future possibilities.
What is not going to change is the importance of e-mail in the business
world. Only amount of data sent through is changing. Btw. I remember the
time where sending 1MB attachment was an attack to recipient inbox. Today 10
MB is standard. And 7GB inbox too.




 Thanks to Manveru and to all for the replies.
 Regards.

 Piero


Thanks to you too. I think we can stop arguing at this point as nobody else
can convince anyone to change their mind. And I think LyX community will
left in current state for nexct couple of years... maybe some add
instruction to GMANE on the pages LyX mailists pages :-)

Regards!
-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
gg: 1624001
  http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Michael Wojcik]

Piero Faustini wrote:
 
 How many people use mailing lists? How many use forums? Say 1 lister every 20 
 forumers? Say 1 to 10 (and I'm fair)?

Fairness doesn't enter into it. Either you have data, or you don't.

 It's not me who says lists are
 difficoult, it's people. I never used lists before knowing LyX.

Perhaps it is possible that generalizing from your own experience is
not a productive research methodology in this case.

In addition to lyx-users, I subscribe to 9 email lists that I read
regularly. In the past, I've subscribed to at least as many others,
which I dropped only because their subject areas were no longer as
relevant to me.

I don't participate regularly in any web forums.

Email lists have been in widespread use for decades. They've endured
in the face of competitive technologies (Usenet, various web-based
systems, instant messaging) because for some purposes, a significant
number of users find them superior.

Everyone on lyx-users could use a web forum. That we choose not to
disproves your claim. In this instance, people have chosen to use the
list.

 It's 10 years since last time I disabled cookies.

Hurrah for you. Other people may make different choices.

 Children use forums.

Children who use LyX are welcome to discuss it in forums.

So, for that matter, are adults. Some of us don't want to.

 Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages, so they are 
 for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess they will be 
 ONLY 
 for pro.

Utter nonsense. Look at the history of BITNET lists, for example.

There is a regrettable tendency, in discussing computer culture, to
offer spurious claims about the history of computing as support for
arguing that technology X is superior, intuitive, usable, etc.
This happens frequently in academia (I've seen a number of scholars
make these arguments just in the past year), and even more often in
casual argumentation.

These arguments are unpersuasive for at least two reasons. First,
their historical claims, as I noted, are generally not supported by
any data; and they're often contradicted by the data that is
available. Second, they endorse the most naive sort of teleological
narrative. Even if more users chose technology X in the past, that
hardly implies that technology X is better, or that moving to
technology X would attract more users, or that any other benefit
automatically attaches to technology X.

Indeed, this is the entire proposition of LyX: that it's better, at
least for some purposes, than Microsoft Word. More people use Word.
Children use Word. That doesn't prove Word is better; it doesn't prove
Word is easier; it doesn't prove that more people would switch to LyX
if it were more like Word.

-- 
Michael Wojcik
Micro Focus
Rhetoric  Writing, Michigan State University

Re: LyX Forum?

[Paul A. Rubin]

FWIW ...

I subscribe to both lists and forums, although I prefer to view lists as 
newsgroups where that's an option (such as this list, which I access via 
the GMANE group).  A forum that supplies RSS feeds is not too different 
in many respects from a newsgroup.


One advantage that I think a forum might have over the current 
list/group structure is that on most forums (at least the forums I 
visit), I can scroll down a thread and see all the message text in one 
gulp.  With a long thread, such as this one, I need to access each 
message separately to read it, and I'm much too lazy for that.


That said, I have no problem with the current setup.

/Paul

Re: LyX Forum?

[Nikos Alexandris]

Just my view upon this:

I find mailing lists (ML) very convenient and I don't follow forums in
general except of the ubuntuforums.org. But MLs have several
drawbacks.

One thing that is not that good in MLs are LONG threads as the current
one. It's hard to follow sometimes and people tend to post irrelevant
stuff on a ML-thread or change the subject of it so a new thread starts
when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
drawback.

Fora require more energy to maintain but provide means to organize
information better. Of course, the LyX-wiki is very good which fulfills
most of what the ML doesn't satisfy.

That said, I think a ML + Wiki are enough. Without the wiki, the forum
would be a must-have.

Kindest regards, Nikos

Re: LyX Forum?

[Steve Litt]

On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:

 when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
 ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
 drawback.

When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure one out, I 
reply one more time to the thread and append SOLVED to the subject. That's 
a pretty commonly known technique recommended by ESR:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup

But all too few people choose to use it.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: LyX Forum?

[Nikos Alexandris]

On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 23:05 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
 On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:
 
  when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
  ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
  drawback.
 
 When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure one out, 
 I 
 reply one more time to the thread and append SOLVED to the subject. That's 
 a pretty commonly known technique recommended by ESR:
 
 http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup
 
 But all too few people choose to use it.
 
 SteveT

Thanks Steve. I didn't know it works like that.

Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
place as it should be.

Cheers, Nikos

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/30 Piero Faustini pierofaust...@hotmail.com

 

 Hello once again.

 I can't reply to all.
 [...]

Of course about children, I was pointing out that forums are VERY simple.
 And
 it's exactly what I was trying to explain: the list concept is VERY old
 (whatever this means). Yes, also e-mail is old, and almost every single
 human
 being uses it, but my 19-years old sister last week told me she doesn't
 care
 about e-mail since he has her favourite Web 2.0 communication basis: I find
 it
 terrible, but it is 2009 REALITY. (and BTW, speaking of
 intelligence/culture, I
 think my sister stays in the upper 5% of her age).


Somehow you replied yourself. I do not think in that case LyX is for your
sister, I think much more relevant tool for her is docs.google.com. It is
web based text editor able to produce HTML and PDF - quite nice.


 [...]At least, the smallest pieces of great wisdom are to
 be found in the mechanized habits of the million. To live in the mountain
 is
 not to live. The community should spread to as many people as possible,
 choosing the most popular, the easiest. Being aware of the gap with the
 younger
 and trying to understand him is the only way not to grow too old too soon.
 Saying that  neostrada children destroyed everything worth of the internet
 is
 perhaps being completely blind in front of the great revolutions the
 internet
 (or whatever its name will be) shows us, and is building thanks to THAT
 uncultured young boy. This revolution just started, and I can't say where
 it
 will go.


I do not know hot to express it precisely. I expect from others as I expect
from myself to be prepared to take the knowledge from others - teachers,
coworkers... Today I often feel that large number of people treats knowledge
as a necessary evil. You mentioned evolution of Web 2.0 culture and its
habits, but have you ever think about difference between level of its users
and its creators? Guys coding CMS, Wiki and other stuff still uses
maillists, even if there old. New tools are use to documenting (LyX has
Wiki) and buqtracking (LyX has bugzilla). Lists are easy to use for all
those geeks, becase they're faster, easier to read. I am sure that busy
proffesionals do not have time to read forums and they feel anger when they
have to spent time clicking all these slowly loading pages full of
advertisements.

 I miss that times before commercialized Internet.

 [...]
 I can't use mailing lists but I believe they are really smart. The last
 time I
 installed Thunderbird I think it was beta, but I was already sure I would
 have
 never and never save a single mail in my PCs: the future was the WEB and
 now
 it's the present, and I stay with the present, if I can't with the future.
 Full
 stop.


I have to write that: I think you choose your way of computing. You are very
good client for google products. But you are trying to convince couple
hunderd people that your way is the best. This does not work this way. You
can argue with us even with arguments as given below or all mentioned
ealier. Probably most of us will agree with you in many places. But this
will not lanuch a revolution causing LyX users moving to forums.



 I only can tell you that you should keep your eyes open: faster, wider
 communication is THE need of the present. I just gave voice to the majority
 of
 non-computer-geeks, non-technical/scientific academics which deserve a
 little
 more interest from the LaTeX community and most of all from LyX.
 [...]


I have eyes open widely. But I don't think I am looking in the same
direction as you. I am working on technologies which gives people like you
access to the internet wirelessly and I know what are future possibilities.
What is not going to change is the importance of e-mail in the business
world. Only amount of data sent through is changing. Btw. I remember the
time where sending 1MB attachment was an attack to recipient inbox. Today 10
MB is standard. And 7GB inbox too.




 Thanks to Manveru and to all for the replies.
 Regards.

 Piero


Thanks to you too. I think we can stop arguing at this point as nobody else
can convince anyone to change their mind. And I think LyX community will
left in current state for nexct couple of years... maybe some add
instruction to GMANE on the pages LyX mailists pages :-)

Regards!
-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
gg: 1624001
  http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Michael Wojcik]

Piero Faustini wrote:
 
 How many people use mailing lists? How many use forums? Say 1 lister every 20 
 forumers? Say 1 to 10 (and I'm fair)?

Fairness doesn't enter into it. Either you have data, or you don't.

 It's not me who says lists are
 difficoult, it's people. I never used lists before knowing LyX.

Perhaps it is possible that generalizing from your own experience is
not a productive research methodology in this case.

In addition to lyx-users, I subscribe to 9 email lists that I read
regularly. In the past, I've subscribed to at least as many others,
which I dropped only because their subject areas were no longer as
relevant to me.

I don't participate regularly in any web forums.

Email lists have been in widespread use for decades. They've endured
in the face of competitive technologies (Usenet, various web-based
systems, instant messaging) because for some purposes, a significant
number of users find them superior.

Everyone on lyx-users could use a web forum. That we choose not to
disproves your claim. In this instance, people have chosen to use the
list.

 It's 10 years since last time I disabled cookies.

Hurrah for you. Other people may make different choices.

 Children use forums.

Children who use LyX are welcome to discuss it in forums.

So, for that matter, are adults. Some of us don't want to.

 Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages, so they are 
 for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess they will be 
 ONLY 
 for pro.

Utter nonsense. Look at the history of BITNET lists, for example.

There is a regrettable tendency, in discussing computer culture, to
offer spurious claims about the history of computing as support for
arguing that technology X is superior, intuitive, usable, etc.
This happens frequently in academia (I've seen a number of scholars
make these arguments just in the past year), and even more often in
casual argumentation.

These arguments are unpersuasive for at least two reasons. First,
their historical claims, as I noted, are generally not supported by
any data; and they're often contradicted by the data that is
available. Second, they endorse the most naive sort of teleological
narrative. Even if more users chose technology X in the past, that
hardly implies that technology X is better, or that moving to
technology X would attract more users, or that any other benefit
automatically attaches to technology X.

Indeed, this is the entire proposition of LyX: that it's better, at
least for some purposes, than Microsoft Word. More people use Word.
Children use Word. That doesn't prove Word is better; it doesn't prove
Word is easier; it doesn't prove that more people would switch to LyX
if it were more like Word.

-- 
Michael Wojcik
Micro Focus
Rhetoric  Writing, Michigan State University

Re: LyX Forum?

[Paul A. Rubin]

FWIW ...

I subscribe to both lists and forums, although I prefer to view lists as 
newsgroups where that's an option (such as this list, which I access via 
the GMANE group).  A forum that supplies RSS feeds is not too different 
in many respects from a newsgroup.


One advantage that I think a forum might have over the current 
list/group structure is that on most forums (at least the forums I 
visit), I can scroll down a thread and see all the message text in one 
gulp.  With a long thread, such as this one, I need to access each 
message separately to read it, and I'm much too lazy for that.


That said, I have no problem with the current setup.

/Paul

Re: LyX Forum?

[Nikos Alexandris]

Just my view upon this:

I find mailing lists (ML) very convenient and I don't follow forums in
general except of the ubuntuforums.org. But MLs have several
drawbacks.

One thing that is not that good in MLs are LONG threads as the current
one. It's hard to follow sometimes and people tend to post irrelevant
stuff on a ML-thread or change the subject of it so a new thread starts
when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
drawback.

Fora require more energy to maintain but provide means to organize
information better. Of course, the LyX-wiki is very good which fulfills
most of what the ML doesn't satisfy.

That said, I think a ML + Wiki are enough. Without the wiki, the forum
would be a must-have.

Kindest regards, Nikos

Re: LyX Forum?

[Steve Litt]

On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:

 when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
 ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
 drawback.

When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure one out, I 
reply one more time to the thread and append SOLVED to the subject. That's 
a pretty commonly known technique recommended by ESR:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup

But all too few people choose to use it.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: LyX Forum?

[Nikos Alexandris]

On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 23:05 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
 On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:
 
  when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
  ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
  drawback.
 
 When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure one out, 
 I 
 reply one more time to the thread and append SOLVED to the subject. That's 
 a pretty commonly known technique recommended by ESR:
 
 http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup
 
 But all too few people choose to use it.
 
 SteveT

Thanks Steve. I didn't know it works like that.

Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
place as it should be.

Cheers, Nikos

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/30 Piero Faustini 

> >
>
> Hello once again.
>
> I can't reply to all.
> [...]

Of course about children, I was pointing out that forums are VERY simple.
> And
> it's exactly what I was trying to explain: the list concept is VERY old
> (whatever this means). Yes, also e-mail is old, and almost every single
> human
> being uses it, but my 19-years old sister last week told me she doesn't
> care
> about e-mail since he has her favourite Web 2.0 communication basis: I find
> it
> terrible, but it is 2009 REALITY. (and BTW, speaking of
> intelligence/culture, I
> think my sister stays in the upper 5% of her age).
>

Somehow you replied yourself. I do not think in that case LyX is for your
sister, I think much more relevant tool for her is docs.google.com. It is
web based text editor able to produce HTML and PDF - quite nice.


> [...]At least, the smallest pieces of great wisdom are to
> be found in the mechanized habits of the million. To live in the mountain
> is
> not to live. The community should spread to as many people as possible,
> choosing the most popular, the easiest. Being aware of the gap with the
> younger
> and trying to understand him is the only way not to grow too old too soon.
> Saying that  neostrada children destroyed everything worth of the internet
> is
> perhaps being completely blind in front of the great revolutions the
> internet
> (or whatever its name will be) shows us, and is building thanks to THAT
> uncultured young boy. This revolution just started, and I can't say where
> it
> will go.
>

I do not know hot to express it precisely. I expect from others as I expect
from myself to be prepared to take the knowledge from others - teachers,
coworkers... Today I often feel that large number of people treats knowledge
as a necessary evil. You mentioned evolution of Web 2.0 culture and its
habits, but have you ever think about difference between level of its users
and its creators? Guys coding CMS, Wiki and other stuff still uses
maillists, even if there old. New tools are use to documenting (LyX has
Wiki) and buqtracking (LyX has bugzilla). Lists are easy to use for all
those geeks, becase they're faster, easier to read. I am sure that busy
proffesionals do not have time to read forums and they feel anger when they
have to spent time clicking all these slowly loading pages full of
advertisements.

> I miss that times before commercialized Internet.
>
> [...]
> I can't use mailing lists but I believe they are really smart. The last
> time I
> installed Thunderbird I think it was beta, but I was already sure I would
> have
> never and never save a single mail in my PCs: the future was the WEB and
> now
> it's the present, and I stay with the present, if I can't with the future.
> Full
> stop.


I have to write that: I think you choose your way of computing. You are very
good client for google products. But you are trying to convince couple
hunderd people that your way is the best. This does not work this way. You
can argue with us even with arguments as given below or all mentioned
ealier. Probably most of us will agree with you in many places. But this
will not lanuch a revolution causing LyX users moving to forums.


>
> I only can tell you that you should keep your eyes open: faster, wider
> communication is THE need of the present. I just gave voice to the majority
> of
> non-computer-geeks, non-technical/scientific academics which deserve a
> little
> more interest from the LaTeX community and most of all from LyX.
> [...]


I have eyes open widely. But I don't think I am looking in the same
direction as you. I am working on technologies which gives people like you
access to the internet wirelessly and I know what are future possibilities.
What is not going to change is the importance of e-mail in the business
world. Only amount of data sent through is changing. Btw. I remember the
time where sending 1MB attachment was an attack to recipient inbox. Today 10
MB is standard. And 7GB inbox too.


>
>
> Thanks to Manveru and to all for the replies.
> Regards.
>
> Piero
>
>
Thanks to you too. I think we can stop arguing at this point as nobody else
can convince anyone to change their mind. And I think LyX community will
left in current state for nexct couple of years... maybe some add
instruction to GMANE on the pages LyX mailists pages :-)

Regards!
-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
gg: 1624001
  http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Michael Wojcik]

Piero Faustini wrote:
> 
> How many people use mailing lists? How many use forums? Say 1 lister every 20 
> forumers? Say 1 to 10 (and I'm fair)?

Fairness doesn't enter into it. Either you have data, or you don't.

> It's not me who says lists are
> difficoult, it's people. I never used lists before knowing LyX.

Perhaps it is possible that generalizing from your own experience is
not a productive research methodology in this case.

In addition to lyx-users, I subscribe to 9 email lists that I read
regularly. In the past, I've subscribed to at least as many others,
which I dropped only because their subject areas were no longer as
relevant to me.

I don't participate regularly in any web forums.

Email lists have been in widespread use for decades. They've endured
in the face of competitive technologies (Usenet, various web-based
systems, instant messaging) because for some purposes, a significant
number of users find them superior.

Everyone on lyx-users could use a web forum. That we choose not to
disproves your claim. In this instance, people have chosen to use the
list.

> It's 10 years since last time I disabled cookies.

Hurrah for you. Other people may make different choices.

> Children use forums.

Children who use LyX are welcome to discuss it in forums.

So, for that matter, are adults. Some of us don't want to.

> Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages, so they are 
> for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess they will be 
> ONLY 
> for pro.

Utter nonsense. Look at the history of BITNET lists, for example.

There is a regrettable tendency, in discussing computer culture, to
offer spurious claims about the history of computing as support for
arguing that technology X is superior, "intuitive", "usable", etc.
This happens frequently in academia (I've seen a number of scholars
make these arguments just in the past year), and even more often in
casual argumentation.

These arguments are unpersuasive for at least two reasons. First,
their historical claims, as I noted, are generally not supported by
any data; and they're often contradicted by the data that is
available. Second, they endorse the most naive sort of teleological
narrative. Even if more users chose technology X in the past, that
hardly implies that technology X is better, or that moving to
technology X would attract more users, or that any other benefit
automatically attaches to technology X.

Indeed, this is the entire proposition of LyX: that it's better, at
least for some purposes, than Microsoft Word. More people use Word.
Children use Word. That doesn't prove Word is better; it doesn't prove
Word is easier; it doesn't prove that more people would switch to LyX
if it were more like Word.

-- 
Michael Wojcik
Micro Focus
Rhetoric & Writing, Michigan State University

Re: LyX Forum?

[Paul A. Rubin]

FWIW ...

I subscribe to both lists and forums, although I prefer to view lists as 
newsgroups where that's an option (such as this list, which I access via 
the GMANE group).  A forum that supplies RSS feeds is not too different 
in many respects from a newsgroup.


One advantage that I think a forum might have over the current 
list/group structure is that on most forums (at least the forums I 
visit), I can scroll down a thread and see all the message text in one 
gulp.  With a long thread, such as this one, I need to access each 
message separately to read it, and I'm much too lazy for that.


That said, I have no problem with the current setup.

/Paul

Re: LyX Forum?

[Nikos Alexandris]

Just my view upon this:

I find mailing lists (ML) very convenient and I don't follow forums in
general except of the "ubuntuforums.org". But MLs have several
drawbacks.

One thing that is not that good in MLs are LONG threads as the current
one. It's hard to follow sometimes and people tend to post irrelevant
stuff on a ML-thread or change the subject of it so a new thread starts
when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
drawback.

Fora require more energy to maintain but provide means to organize
information better. Of course, the LyX-wiki is very good which fulfills
most of what the ML doesn't satisfy.

That said, I think a ML + Wiki are enough. Without the wiki, the forum
would be a "must-have".

Kindest regards, Nikos

Re: LyX Forum?

[Steve Litt]

On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:

> when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
> ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
> drawback.

When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure one out, I 
reply one more time to the thread and append  to the subject. That's 
a pretty commonly known technique recommended by ESR:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup

But all too few people choose to use it.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: LyX Forum?

[Nikos Alexandris]

On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 23:05 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Monday 30 March 2009 08:38:21 pm Nikos Alexandris wrote:
> 
> > when it's not required. In addition, it's not possible to mark
> > ML-threads as SOLVED. The latter is, in my humble opinion, a big
> > drawback.
> 
> When I ask a question and then either am giving an answer or figure one out, 
> I 
> reply one more time to the thread and append  to the subject. That's 
> a pretty commonly known technique recommended by ESR:
> 
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#followup
> 
> But all too few people choose to use it.
> 
> SteveT

Thanks Steve. I didn't know it works like that.

Don't you really start a new thread by changing the subject? I this is
the case, the information is still not organised/concentrated in one
place as it should be.

Cheers, Nikos

LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Hello, 
I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users 
(I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in my 
mailbox).
A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we use 
a normal forum site?
There's a LyX forum in LaTeX community but it's not as active as this 
discussion list; anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted something 
for this list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because they didn't 
know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.
I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be 
simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???
Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless) way 
to discourage LyX users.
Thx
Piero

Re: LyX Forum?

[Uwe Stöhr]

Piero Faustini schrieb:


I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users


Why is it hard to use? You sing the mailing list and then get the emails as 
described here:
http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists
The whole list is archived at various websites.

A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we use 
a normal forum site?


I don't see an advantage. At forums I always have to log in before I can post and I have to open the 
webpage to reply. That means I every time have to enable cookies in my browser, then enter my user 
name and password and then write afterwards I have to delete my browser history and disable cookies. 
With a mailing list I only have to subscribe once and get the emails whenever I want to. I can also 
store important mails at my PC, forward messages, compose messages out of several other ones, CC and 
BCC people,  All this is not possible with a forum.


I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be 
simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???
Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless) way 
to discourage LyX users.


I think that LyX is one of the best documented projects and our user support is outstanding. When 
you have a problem with LyX you'll usually get a solution within a day or two. So I'm interested why 
you think LyX lacks information.


regards Uwe

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009, Piero Faustini wrote:


I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users
(I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in my
mailbox).


You can disable the daily updates to your mailbox and exclusively use 
GMANE.


Oh, I should probably mention that I'm accessing this list pureley as a 
news group, which I guess you might consider a forum although I do it with 
a separate news client.


cheers,
Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Uwe Stöhr uwesto...@... writes:

 Why is it hard to use? You sing the mailing list and then get the emails as 
described here:
 http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists
 The whole list is archived at various websites.
 

How many people use mailing lists? How many use forums? Say 1 lister every 20 
forumers? Say 1 to 10 (and I'm fair)? It's not me who says lists are 
difficoult, it's people. I never used lists before knowing LyX.  

 I don't see an advantage. At forums I always have to log in before I can post 
and I have to open the 
 webpage to reply. That means I every time have to enable cookies in my 
browser, then enter my user 
 name and password and then write afterwards I have to delete my browser 
history and disable cookies. 
 With a mailing list I only have to subscribe once and get the emails whenever 
I want to. I can also 
 store important mails at my PC, forward messages, compose messages out of 
several other ones, CC and 
 BCC people,  All this is not possible with a forum.

It's 10 years since last time I disabled cookies. I'm a Windows (95% of time) 
integrate internet user as millions more. I use cookies in my Xandros OS too. 
Integrate doesn't mean computer-pro. Sometimes it's opposite to pro.
Children use forums. They always had, because they are very, VERY simple. Lists 
are not that simple, comparing to forums (unless you care about cookies, which 
99% of people don't). Everything has its thumb up and down. I believe you that 
with lists you can do many things which a forum can't. But that's not the 
point. Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages, so they are 
for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess they will be ONLY 
for pro. Their worst difficoulty is to LEARN how it works (I spent some days 
puzzling and puzzling and sending messages to wrong addresses till I went to 
GMANE and used its forum-like interface)


 I think that LyX is one of the best documented projects and our user support 
is outstanding. When 
 you have a problem with LyX you'll usually get a solution within a day or 
two. So I'm interested why 
 you think LyX lacks information.

100% agree with you. I didn't want to say LyX lacks information. LyX 
information is GREAT and of 1st quality and fast and reliable and sincere. Just 
that if you can't have access to this information, it's value is ZERO, no 
matter why you didn't have access.
Let's say my name is Joe Average and I'm one of those 1000 potential LyX users 
who weekly crash in site. I use Windows and used MS Access at basic level once. 
I know something about html. I'm smart so I use OOo Writer with styles. I use 
the internet everyday. FULL STOP.
I found Lyx.org just because I read something, in a forum ;) of students. I try 
to use it and I get it working but that very day I get stuck trying to use some 
pics. Guide says I have to learn how to install it properly, and the basics of 
LaTeX. That's fair. Then I have to tweak something in the preamble. Ok. I have 
to change completely my Word-formatted mind. HARD, BUT I CAN. I just need some 
help, and LaTeX forums are not for LyXers and they're always with all that \$%. 
Then, they say me that I have to learn how to use a list (something I heard of 
at the beginning of the internet). I try once, twice. I give up lists. I give 
up LyX.
Hope will be better for next 999 users but I don't believe it.

Against common Scientific-pro based opinions, I think LyX strategy should be 
GO TO THE PEOPLE, to students, to humanists, to people who are not computer-
pros which are millions. They still have to learn something aboute code etc. 
but the LyX community should ban everything which could stay between them and 
LyX and of course between them and LyX information (and is not strictly 
needed). Lists are just one of these little annoying things. I didn't say we 
have to use Facebook or a social site or something like that. Just a simple, 
plain forum. In a modern forum you can use a lot of features, but you need 
cookies, of course ;) .
If the entire discussion moved there, everything would be better for new users.

Well this is my idea.
thanks for your opinion
Piero

Re: LyX Forum?

[Stefano Franchi]

On Sunday 29 March 2009 11:56:18 Piero Faustini wrote:
 Uwe Stöhr uwesto...@... writes:
  Why is it hard to use? You sing the mailing list and then get the emails
  as

 described here:
  http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists
  The whole list is archived at various websites.

 How many people use mailing lists? How many use forums? Say 1 lister every
 20 forumers? Say 1 to 10 (and I'm fair)? It's not me who says lists are
 difficoult, it's people. I never used lists before knowing LyX.

  I don't see an advantage. At forums I always have to log in before I can
  post

 and I have to open the

  webpage to reply. That means I every time have to enable cookies in my

 browser, then enter my user

  name and password and then write afterwards I have to delete my browser

 history and disable cookies.

  With a mailing list I only have to subscribe once and get the emails
  whenever

 I want to. I can also

  store important mails at my PC, forward messages, compose messages out of

 several other ones, CC and

  BCC people,  All this is not possible with a forum.

 It's 10 years since last time I disabled cookies. I'm a Windows (95% of
 time) integrate internet user as millions more. I use cookies in my
 Xandros OS too. Integrate doesn't mean computer-pro. Sometimes it's
 opposite to pro. Children use forums. They always had, because they are
 very, VERY simple. Lists are not that simple, comparing to forums (unless
 you care about cookies, which 99% of people don't). Everything has its
 thumb up and down. I believe you that with lists you can do many things
 which a forum can't. But that's not the point. Lists are difficoult to use
 comparing to their advantages, so they are for PRO users, almost always
 have been, and in future I guess they will be ONLY for pro. Their worst
 difficoulty is to LEARN how it works (I spent some days puzzling and
 puzzling and sending messages to wrong addresses till I went to GMANE and
 used its forum-like interface)

  I think that LyX is one of the best documented projects and our user
  support

 is outstanding. When

  you have a problem with LyX you'll usually get a solution within a day or

 two. So I'm interested why

  you think LyX lacks information.

 100% agree with you. I didn't want to say LyX lacks information. LyX
 information is GREAT and of 1st quality and fast and reliable and sincere.
 Just that if you can't have access to this information, it's value is ZERO,
 no matter why you didn't have access.
 Let's say my name is Joe Average and I'm one of those 1000 potential LyX
 users who weekly crash in site. I use Windows and used MS Access at basic
 level once. I know something about html. I'm smart so I use OOo Writer with
 styles. I use the internet everyday. FULL STOP.
 I found Lyx.org just because I read something, in a forum ;) of students. I
 try to use it and I get it working but that very day I get stuck trying to
 use some pics. Guide says I have to learn how to install it properly, and
 the basics of LaTeX. That's fair. Then I have to tweak something in the
 preamble. Ok. I have to change completely my Word-formatted mind. HARD, BUT
 I CAN. I just need some help, and LaTeX forums are not for LyXers and
 they're always with all that \$%. Then, they say me that I have to learn
 how to use a list (something I heard of at the beginning of the internet).
 I try once, twice. I give up lists. I give up LyX.
 Hope will be better for next 999 users but I don't believe it.

 Against common Scientific-pro based opinions, I think LyX strategy should
 be GO TO THE PEOPLE, to students, to humanists, to people who are not
 computer- pros which are millions. They still have to learn something
 aboute code etc. but the LyX community should ban everything which could
 stay between them and LyX and of course between them and LyX information
 (and is not strictly needed). Lists are just one of these little annoying
 things. I didn't say we have to use Facebook or a social site or something
 like that. Just a simple, plain forum. In a modern forum you can use a lot
 of features, but you need cookies, of course ;) .
 If the entire discussion moved there, everything would be better for new
 users.

 Well this is my idea.
 thanks for your opinion
 Piero

Like Uwe, I am not quite sure I understand what's so difficult about lists. 
That 
is, unless you are used to reading mail in a browser and never used a mail 
client. Lists have also many advantages, which Uwe summed up nicely. However, 
I am also old enough to have used e-mail for years before browsing came into 
existence, so what Piero is saying may just be a pointer to a generational 
gap.

The issue though, is that the great support Lyx provides is (mostly) in the 
hands of a relatively small group of people who very generously share their 
time and expertise---Uwe himself being perhaps the most active member of this 
group. What they prefer is the law of lyx-land!

Cheers,

S.

Re: LyX Forum?

[Uwe Stöhr]

Stefano Franchi schrieb:

The issue though, is that the great support Lyx provides is (mostly) in the 
hands of a relatively small group of people who very generously share their 
time and expertise---Uwe himself being perhaps the most active member of this 
group. What they prefer is the law of lyx-land!


What I prefer is hopefully never a law! LyX used mailing lists for years long 
before I joined LyX.
(I started supporting LyX with its mailing list btw. and I cannot think right now that anything else 
might be easier. And I'm 29, so not too old not to know the possibilities of forums ;-) )


regards Uwe

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/29 Piero Faustini pierofaust...@hotmail.com

 [...]
 Integrate doesn't mean computer-pro. Sometimes it's opposite to pro.
 Children use forums. They always had, because they are very, VERY simple.
 Lists
 are not that simple, comparing to forums (unless you care about cookies,
 which
 99% of people don't). Everything has its thumb up and down. I believe you
 that
 with lists you can do many things which a forum can't. But that's not the
 point. Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages, so they
 are
 for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess they will be
 ONLY
 for pro. Their worst difficoulty is to LEARN how it works (I spent some
 days
 puzzling and puzzling and sending messages to wrong addresses till I went
 to
 GMANE and used its forum-like interface)

 [...]
 I found Lyx.org just because I read something, in a forum ;) of students. I
 try
 to use it and I get it working but that very day I get stuck trying to use
 some
 pics. Guide says I have to learn how to install it properly, and the basics
 of
 LaTeX. That's fair. Then I have to tweak something in the preamble. Ok. I
 have
 to change completely my Word-formatted mind. HARD, BUT I CAN. I just need
 some
 help, and LaTeX forums are not for LyXers and they're always with all that
 \$%.
 Then, they say me that I have to learn how to use a list (something I heard
 of
 at the beginning of the internet). I try once, twice. I give up lists. I
 give
 up LyX.
 Hope will be better for next 999 users but I don't believe it.

 Against common Scientific-pro based opinions, I think LyX strategy should
 be
 GO TO THE PEOPLE, to students, to humanists, to people who are not
 computer-
 pros which are millions. They still have to learn something aboute code
 etc.
 but the LyX community should ban everything which could stay between them
 and
 LyX and of course between them and LyX information (and is not strictly
 needed). Lists are just one of these little annoying things.[...]


Don't feel offended, but I think LyX was not designed for children. Do not
understand me wrong, but I am using Internet for 13 years and I know that
news groups and lists have veeery looong tradition. Are there was times when
even children uses them. Today we have the era of Web 2.0, but this does not
mean that everything should be available by the the web. Personally forums
are not my favourite way of discussion, they are fine for advetising. Mail
lists are not ideal too, as often I receive lot of infomation I do not need
- but in case of LyX it teach me a lot.

Backing to the children subject, I want to tell you that I was a witness
of specific change in the Internet itself in about 1999. In Poland that time
new service from our national telecom operation become available - it
allows to call to the internet by modem for the price of connection only. It
was a revolution, beacause large number of people get wide access to the
global village, mainly childrens. The level of discussion on medias like
maillists and IRC quickly has gone very low. Today we - all veterans of
Internet in Poland - call these people childrens of neostrada, as they
still represent low level of discussion and culture. Nestrada - for you
information - is the name of another service from national operator sold to
France Telecom based on ADSL... I think this do not need more comment.

I miss that times before commercialized Internet.

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
gg: 1624001
  http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Stefano Franchi fran...@... writes:

 Like Uwe, I am not quite sure I understand what's so difficult about lists. 
That 
 is, unless you are used to reading mail in a browser and never used a mail 
 client.

Of course I use a webclient (M$Hotmail, the worst ever, but who cares?) and 
everything ends up a mess.


 Lists have also many advantages, which Uwe summed up nicely. However, 
 I am also old enough to have used e-mail for years before browsing came into 
 existence, so what Piero is saying may just be a pointer to a generational 
 gap.
 

Good point. A gap. The most experienced (or advanced) Internet users are 
nowadays less than basic-traditional-computer users and only 1 on 100 of them 
used the internet in the mid 90s, where newsgroups and lists were the most 
advancede way to communicate, but this is ancient history. The same with the 
80s: advanced personal computers users and programmers knew nothing about basic 
electricity knoledge, which was the most advanced knoledge for their fathers. 
Who cared once? 
Nowadays the future is the advanced social networking, but the open community 
seems to be far less interested in it than companie$. This is absolutely the 
worst thing of the internet today. Glorious habits should evolve as everything 
else. What I lack most of LyX (and LaTeX)? Web-based environments, web-based 
bibliographies, web-based computing.. ok, we can't have EVERYTHING, but the 
various Google-Whatever are the best creatures of the net and this is the 
future, we all know it.

 The issue though, is that the great support Lyx provides is (mostly) in the 
 hands of a relatively small group of people who very generously share their 
 time and expertise---Uwe himself being perhaps the most active member of this 
 group. What they prefer is the law of lyx-land!

Without all of you I would be almost dead. Thank you with the entire lyxer 
heart.

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009, Piero Faustini wrote:

else. What I lack most of LyX (and LaTeX)? Web-based environments, 
web-based bibliographies, web-based computing.. ok, we can't have 
EVERYTHING, but the various Google-Whatever are the best creatures of 
the net and this is the future, we all know it.


Could you be more specific? We have:
* web site
* wiki site
* mailing lists (i.e a forum)

As for LaTeX-wise, there's something that can take wiki pages via LaTeX to 
PDF, so that's basically web based LaTeX computing for you?


I really am curious,
Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009, Uwe Stöhr wrote:

(I started supporting LyX with its mailing list btw. and I cannot think 
right now that anything else might be easier. And I'm 29, so not too old 
not to know the possibilities of forums ;-) )


I'm 35, so I don't see the advantages with forums... or lists for that 
matter over news groups ;-) ;-)


Seriously though, why is a forum different from a list?

/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Rich Shepard]

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009, Christian Ridderstr?m wrote:


Seriously though, why is a forum different from a list?


/Christian,

  Two differences, as far as I know:

  1.) Fora are hosted on a web site and mail lists are hosted on a server
that needs no more than a mailing list manager (MLM). The former requires a
GUI while the latter is text based (although subscribers can use a GUI MUA
-- go ahead, say that quickly -- to read the text).

  2.) Fora require subscribers to actively load the apppropriate web page
and pull down the articles/messages of interest to them. A mail list pushes
the messages to each subscriber who is free to read, delete, or otherwise
manage the messages sent.

  Personally, I much prefer mail lists. It is many times easier to check my
MUA and tab through the various mail list folders at my convenience (all
done without removing my hands from the keyboard) than it is to open a new
firefox tab, enter the URL (or select the bookmark using the pointy device),
then scroll through the list on the presented web page.

  Usenet used to be OK. Now, unfortunately, it's jammed with spam and folks
with attitudes. Mail lists tend to be more polite and helpful.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: LyX Forum?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 04:56:18PM +, Piero Faustini wrote:
 Uwe Stöhr uwesto...@... writes:
  Why is it hard to use? You sing the mailing list and then get the
  emails as described here:
  http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists The whole list is archived at
  various websites.
 
 How many people use mailing lists? How many use forums? Say 1 lister
 every 20 forumers? Say 1 to 10 (and I'm fair)?

Numbers alone do not matter much in such cases. Some things simply
do not scale linearily.

And - I'd expect an average LaTeX user to be able to handle e-mail...

 It's not me who says lists are difficoult, it's people. I never used
 lists before knowing LyX.

Other people used mailing lists before web forums had been in use.

For me, a mailing list (or real news) has two major advantages: I can
search and filter for any criteria I want to, and I can use the text
editor I like. Both is usually not (painlessly) possible with a web
interface. 

 They always had, because
 they are very, VERY simple. Lists are not that simple, comparing to
 forums (unless you care about cookies, which 99% of people don't).

Simple is good, as long as it does the job. But not often for more than that.

 Everything has its thumb up and down. I believe you that with lists
 you can do many things which a forum can't. But that's not the point.

That's exactly the point ;-} 

I can scan a dozen mailing lists easily on a daily base. I would not do
the same for web forums.

 Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages, so they are
 for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess they
 will be ONLY for pro. Their worst difficoulty is to LEARN how it works
 (I spent some days puzzling and puzzling and sending messages to wrong
 addresses till I went to GMANE and used its forum-like interface)

So you found a solution that fits your need. Good.

Andre'
 

Re: LyX Forum?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 08:34:14PM +0200, Christian Ridderström wrote:
 [...] Seriously though, why is a forum different from a list?

The problem seems to be that he uses a web interface to read a mails.
Of course, with such a background, a well-organized forum _is_ an
advantage. Like using a bike instead of walking. But then, steam
engines have been invented more than twenty years ago ;-}

Andre'

Re: LyX Forum?

[Steve Litt]

On Sunday 29 March 2009 09:15:59 am Piero Faustini wrote:
 Hello,
 I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
 I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common
 users (I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates
 in my mailbox).
 A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we
 use a normal forum site?
 There's a LyX forum in LaTeX community but it's not as active as this
 discussion list; anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted
 something for this list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because
 they didn't know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.
 I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be
 simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???
 Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless)
 way to discourage LyX users.
 Thx
 Piero

If this list became forum only, I'd be gone. As a person on 20 mailing lists, 
I like the fact that posts get sent to me. I don't have time to go around 
looking for them.

I tried forums last century and found after a brief period of keeping up, I 
stopped looking for posts as it became too time consuming.

The LyX list can be accessed via gmane.org, so we have the best of both 
worlds. I don't see the advantages of eliminating the mailing list, and once 
again, if it were eliminated, I wouldn't join the forum.

I'm just one guy so it's no big deal, but if several other people also went 
away it wouldn't be good, especially if some of them were people who answered 
questions.

The LyX mailing list's worked well for me since 2001, and a quick gmane search 
shows posts as far back as February 1999 (happy tenth everyone!). My advice 
would be, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: LyX Forum?

[Rich Shepard]

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009, Andre Poenitz wrote:


It's not me who says lists are difficoult, it's people. I never used
lists before knowing LyX.



Other people used mailing lists before web forums had been in use.


  First there was ARPANET (text based), then BitNet (text based), then
Usenet (text based); with tools such as Archie (text based) and WAIS (text
based).

  Of course, if one grows up inculcated by Microsoft and accepts that there
way is the Only One True Way, then one has a terribly narrow view of the
computing world.


They always had, because they are very, VERY simple. Lists are not that
simple, comparing to forums (unless you care about cookies, which 99% of
people don't).


  Feh! That's complete nonsense. However, ... if someone finds it very
difficult to look at a list of messages on his/her own machine, while
finding it simple to look at them on someone else's machine via a web
interface I can understand the confusion.


Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages,


  How...exactly?


so they are for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess
they will be ONLY for pro. Their worst difficoulty is to LEARN how it
works (I spent some days puzzling and puzzling and sending messages to
wrong addresses till I went to GMANE and used its forum-like interface)


  Ooh! So because you couldn't figure out how to read and send mail they're
a bad idea. And only PROs (however you define them) are smart enough to
figure them out. Interesting.


So you found a solution that fits your need. Good.


  Yup. And it's a GUI front end to the mail list.

  I've never understood why people want pictures to read text. The last time
I saw a book with text in different colors and typefaces, and illustrated
with pictures was when I read childrens' books to my young son. Books for
adults (well, most adults who don't read comic books, anyway) don't have all
the enhancements of a GUI; neither to newspapers.

Rich

Re: LyX Forum?

[rgheck]

Rich Shepard wrote:
Books for adults (well, most adults who don't read comic books, 
anyway) don't have all the enhancements of a GUI; neither do newspapers.


Which, I'm sad to say, may explain why newspapers all around the US are 
shutting their doors. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the several dozen 
people who still read a newspaper. But perhaps we have learned something.


rh

Re: LyX Forum?

[john]

Rich Shepard wrote:
   Usenet used to be OK. Now, unfortunately, it's jammed with spam and
 folks
 with attitudes. Mail lists tend to be more polite and helpful.
Amen to that.
And the LyX list is extraordinarily polite, helpful, relevant, and
knowledgable.

I have used several lists related to Linux and opensource development
projects.
Unfortunately some are afflicted with abusive, ignorant, politically or
doctrinally motivated people grinding their sectarian axes inappropriately.
The LyX list, in contrast, is a haven of respectful and capable people.
The LyX list has never failed me in my attempts to find answers to
questions about the arcana of LyX.

 Rich

Re: LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Hello once again.

I can't reply to all.
I can read with my eyes not even one of you agreed with any of my arguments 
(not speaking of the thesis). I only want to point out that many counter-
arguments where correct but quite off-topic, many where correct but weak, the 
most strong ones were based on misundestanding of what I wanted to express (my 
bad english being the 1st responsible, of course), the most deep were just 
opinions, while I found most interesting what Stefano said (sorry, he's the 
only fellow Italian) and when it pointed out the gap feeling.
I will not speak of FORA (I have no doubt that Rich after hearing a female 
choir performance always shout loud the italian word Brave! rather than 
Bravi, Brava or Bravo ;) ) cause this transcend. I will not get 
philosophical, or I'll try.
I'll reply to Manveru.

 Don't feel offended, but I think LyX was not designed for children. Do not
 understand me wrong, but I am using Internet for 13 years and I know that
 news groups and lists have veeery looong tradition. Are there was times when
 even children uses them. Today we have the era of Web 2.0, but this does not
 mean that everything should be available by the the web. Personally forums
 are not my favourite way of discussion, they are fine for advetising. Mail
 lists are not ideal too, as often I receive lot of infomation I do not need
 - but in case of LyX it teach me a lot.

Of course about children, I was pointing out that forums are VERY simple. And 
it's exactly what I was trying to explain: the list concept is VERY old 
(whatever this means). Yes, also e-mail is old, and almost every single human 
being uses it, but my 19-years old sister last week told me she doesn't care 
about e-mail since he has her favourite Web 2.0 communication basis: I find it 
terrible, but it is 2009 REALITY. (and BTW, speaking of intelligence/culture, I 
think my sister stays in the upper 5% of her age).


 
 Backing to the children subject, I want to tell you that I was a witness
 of specific change in the Internet itself in about 1999. In Poland that time
 new service from our national telecom operation become available - it
 allows to call to the internet by modem for the price of connection only. It
 was a revolution, beacause large number of people get wide access to the
 global village, mainly childrens. The level of discussion on medias like
 maillists and IRC quickly has gone very low. Today we - all veterans of
 Internet in Poland - call these people childrens of neostrada, as they
 still represent low level of discussion and culture. Nestrada - for you
 information - is the name of another service from national operator sold to
 France Telecom based on ADSL... I think this do not need more comment.
 


As a poor Włoski I don't know everything about this little people making noise 
in the internet, which is a serious thing. But perhaps you agree with this, 
although is not about the internet:

“Elegance, purity, measure, which were the principles of our art, had gradually 
surrended to the new style, simple and pretentious, adopted by this times of 
superficial talent. Brains that, for education and habits, can't think anything 
other than dresses, fashion, gossip, novel reading and moral corruption, have a 
hard time to feel more elaborate and less nervous pleasure of science and art.”

Don't feel offended, but I don't agree with this, and I'll explain why.
In my bare 33 years of age, I learned that I can learn from the poor, the 
uncultured, the younger. At least, the smallest pieces of great wisdom are to 
be found in the mechanized habits of the million. To live in the mountain is 
not to live. The community should spread to as many people as possible, 
choosing the most popular, the easiest. Being aware of the gap with the younger 
and trying to understand him is the only way not to grow too old too soon. 
Saying that  neostrada children destroyed everything worth of the internet is 
perhaps being completely blind in front of the great revolutions the internet 
(or whatever its name will be) shows us, and is building thanks to THAT 
uncultured young boy. This revolution just started, and I can't say where it 
will go.

 I miss that times before commercialized Internet.

How many of our parents miss the time when Internet didn't exist?
How many of our grandfathers missed the time before computers and electronics?
How many of our ancestors missed the time before the press, or before writing? 
And, of course, how many of our older brothers miss the time when LaTeX was 
just plain LaTeX without WYSIWYG crap?

I can't use mailing lists but I believe they are really smart. The last time I 
installed Thunderbird I think it was beta, but I was already sure I would have 
never and never save a single mail in my PCs: the future was the WEB and now 
it's the present, and I stay with the present, if I can't with the future. Full 
stop.
I only can tell you that you should keep your eyes open: faster, wider 

Re: LyX Forum?

[Doug Laidlaw]

On Monday 30 March 2009 12:15:59 am Piero Faustini wrote:
 Hello,
 I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
 I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common
 users (I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates
 in my mailbox).
 A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we
 use a normal forum site?
 There's a LyX forum in LaTeX community but it's not as active as this
 discussion list; anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted
 something for this list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because
 they didn't know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.
 I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be
 simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???
 Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless)
 way to discourage LyX users.
 Thx
 Piero

I prefere a mailing list.  Actually, I prefer a newsgroup, with a limited 
number of posts on my box, but GMANE insists that I use my real email 
address.  It is good protection, but means that my email address would become 
visible through Usenet on other groups.  That is why I switched to a mailing 
list.  Like Steve Litt, I want posts sent to me.

At the same time, I have few problems so far, and any that I have are probably 
somewhere in the archives.  I only browse what comes in.  I would be O.K. 
with a forum.

Just my vote.

Doug.

LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Hello, 
I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users 
(I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in my 
mailbox).
A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we use 
a normal forum site?
There's a LyX forum in LaTeX community but it's not as active as this 
discussion list; anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted something 
for this list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because they didn't 
know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.
I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be 
simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???
Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless) way 
to discourage LyX users.
Thx
Piero

Re: LyX Forum?

[Uwe Stöhr]

Piero Faustini schrieb:


I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users


Why is it hard to use? You sing the mailing list and then get the emails as 
described here:
http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists
The whole list is archived at various websites.

A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we use 
a normal forum site?


I don't see an advantage. At forums I always have to log in before I can post and I have to open the 
webpage to reply. That means I every time have to enable cookies in my browser, then enter my user 
name and password and then write afterwards I have to delete my browser history and disable cookies. 
With a mailing list I only have to subscribe once and get the emails whenever I want to. I can also 
store important mails at my PC, forward messages, compose messages out of several other ones, CC and 
BCC people,  All this is not possible with a forum.


I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be 
simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???
Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless) way 
to discourage LyX users.


I think that LyX is one of the best documented projects and our user support is outstanding. When 
you have a problem with LyX you'll usually get a solution within a day or two. So I'm interested why 
you think LyX lacks information.


regards Uwe

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009, Piero Faustini wrote:


I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users
(I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in my
mailbox).


You can disable the daily updates to your mailbox and exclusively use 
GMANE.


Oh, I should probably mention that I'm accessing this list pureley as a 
news group, which I guess you might consider a forum although I do it with 
a separate news client.


cheers,
Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Uwe Stöhr uwesto...@... writes:

 Why is it hard to use? You sing the mailing list and then get the emails as 
described here:
 http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists
 The whole list is archived at various websites.
 

How many people use mailing lists? How many use forums? Say 1 lister every 20 
forumers? Say 1 to 10 (and I'm fair)? It's not me who says lists are 
difficoult, it's people. I never used lists before knowing LyX.  

 I don't see an advantage. At forums I always have to log in before I can post 
and I have to open the 
 webpage to reply. That means I every time have to enable cookies in my 
browser, then enter my user 
 name and password and then write afterwards I have to delete my browser 
history and disable cookies. 
 With a mailing list I only have to subscribe once and get the emails whenever 
I want to. I can also 
 store important mails at my PC, forward messages, compose messages out of 
several other ones, CC and 
 BCC people,  All this is not possible with a forum.

It's 10 years since last time I disabled cookies. I'm a Windows (95% of time) 
integrate internet user as millions more. I use cookies in my Xandros OS too. 
Integrate doesn't mean computer-pro. Sometimes it's opposite to pro.
Children use forums. They always had, because they are very, VERY simple. Lists 
are not that simple, comparing to forums (unless you care about cookies, which 
99% of people don't). Everything has its thumb up and down. I believe you that 
with lists you can do many things which a forum can't. But that's not the 
point. Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages, so they are 
for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess they will be ONLY 
for pro. Their worst difficoulty is to LEARN how it works (I spent some days 
puzzling and puzzling and sending messages to wrong addresses till I went to 
GMANE and used its forum-like interface)


 I think that LyX is one of the best documented projects and our user support 
is outstanding. When 
 you have a problem with LyX you'll usually get a solution within a day or 
two. So I'm interested why 
 you think LyX lacks information.

100% agree with you. I didn't want to say LyX lacks information. LyX 
information is GREAT and of 1st quality and fast and reliable and sincere. Just 
that if you can't have access to this information, it's value is ZERO, no 
matter why you didn't have access.
Let's say my name is Joe Average and I'm one of those 1000 potential LyX users 
who weekly crash in site. I use Windows and used MS Access at basic level once. 
I know something about html. I'm smart so I use OOo Writer with styles. I use 
the internet everyday. FULL STOP.
I found Lyx.org just because I read something, in a forum ;) of students. I try 
to use it and I get it working but that very day I get stuck trying to use some 
pics. Guide says I have to learn how to install it properly, and the basics of 
LaTeX. That's fair. Then I have to tweak something in the preamble. Ok. I have 
to change completely my Word-formatted mind. HARD, BUT I CAN. I just need some 
help, and LaTeX forums are not for LyXers and they're always with all that \$%. 
Then, they say me that I have to learn how to use a list (something I heard of 
at the beginning of the internet). I try once, twice. I give up lists. I give 
up LyX.
Hope will be better for next 999 users but I don't believe it.

Against common Scientific-pro based opinions, I think LyX strategy should be 
GO TO THE PEOPLE, to students, to humanists, to people who are not computer-
pros which are millions. They still have to learn something aboute code etc. 
but the LyX community should ban everything which could stay between them and 
LyX and of course between them and LyX information (and is not strictly 
needed). Lists are just one of these little annoying things. I didn't say we 
have to use Facebook or a social site or something like that. Just a simple, 
plain forum. In a modern forum you can use a lot of features, but you need 
cookies, of course ;) .
If the entire discussion moved there, everything would be better for new users.

Well this is my idea.
thanks for your opinion
Piero

Re: LyX Forum?

[Stefano Franchi]

On Sunday 29 March 2009 11:56:18 Piero Faustini wrote:
 Uwe Stöhr uwesto...@... writes:
  Why is it hard to use? You sing the mailing list and then get the emails
  as

 described here:
  http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists
  The whole list is archived at various websites.

 How many people use mailing lists? How many use forums? Say 1 lister every
 20 forumers? Say 1 to 10 (and I'm fair)? It's not me who says lists are
 difficoult, it's people. I never used lists before knowing LyX.

  I don't see an advantage. At forums I always have to log in before I can
  post

 and I have to open the

  webpage to reply. That means I every time have to enable cookies in my

 browser, then enter my user

  name and password and then write afterwards I have to delete my browser

 history and disable cookies.

  With a mailing list I only have to subscribe once and get the emails
  whenever

 I want to. I can also

  store important mails at my PC, forward messages, compose messages out of

 several other ones, CC and

  BCC people,  All this is not possible with a forum.

 It's 10 years since last time I disabled cookies. I'm a Windows (95% of
 time) integrate internet user as millions more. I use cookies in my
 Xandros OS too. Integrate doesn't mean computer-pro. Sometimes it's
 opposite to pro. Children use forums. They always had, because they are
 very, VERY simple. Lists are not that simple, comparing to forums (unless
 you care about cookies, which 99% of people don't). Everything has its
 thumb up and down. I believe you that with lists you can do many things
 which a forum can't. But that's not the point. Lists are difficoult to use
 comparing to their advantages, so they are for PRO users, almost always
 have been, and in future I guess they will be ONLY for pro. Their worst
 difficoulty is to LEARN how it works (I spent some days puzzling and
 puzzling and sending messages to wrong addresses till I went to GMANE and
 used its forum-like interface)

  I think that LyX is one of the best documented projects and our user
  support

 is outstanding. When

  you have a problem with LyX you'll usually get a solution within a day or

 two. So I'm interested why

  you think LyX lacks information.

 100% agree with you. I didn't want to say LyX lacks information. LyX
 information is GREAT and of 1st quality and fast and reliable and sincere.
 Just that if you can't have access to this information, it's value is ZERO,
 no matter why you didn't have access.
 Let's say my name is Joe Average and I'm one of those 1000 potential LyX
 users who weekly crash in site. I use Windows and used MS Access at basic
 level once. I know something about html. I'm smart so I use OOo Writer with
 styles. I use the internet everyday. FULL STOP.
 I found Lyx.org just because I read something, in a forum ;) of students. I
 try to use it and I get it working but that very day I get stuck trying to
 use some pics. Guide says I have to learn how to install it properly, and
 the basics of LaTeX. That's fair. Then I have to tweak something in the
 preamble. Ok. I have to change completely my Word-formatted mind. HARD, BUT
 I CAN. I just need some help, and LaTeX forums are not for LyXers and
 they're always with all that \$%. Then, they say me that I have to learn
 how to use a list (something I heard of at the beginning of the internet).
 I try once, twice. I give up lists. I give up LyX.
 Hope will be better for next 999 users but I don't believe it.

 Against common Scientific-pro based opinions, I think LyX strategy should
 be GO TO THE PEOPLE, to students, to humanists, to people who are not
 computer- pros which are millions. They still have to learn something
 aboute code etc. but the LyX community should ban everything which could
 stay between them and LyX and of course between them and LyX information
 (and is not strictly needed). Lists are just one of these little annoying
 things. I didn't say we have to use Facebook or a social site or something
 like that. Just a simple, plain forum. In a modern forum you can use a lot
 of features, but you need cookies, of course ;) .
 If the entire discussion moved there, everything would be better for new
 users.

 Well this is my idea.
 thanks for your opinion
 Piero

Like Uwe, I am not quite sure I understand what's so difficult about lists. 
That 
is, unless you are used to reading mail in a browser and never used a mail 
client. Lists have also many advantages, which Uwe summed up nicely. However, 
I am also old enough to have used e-mail for years before browsing came into 
existence, so what Piero is saying may just be a pointer to a generational 
gap.

The issue though, is that the great support Lyx provides is (mostly) in the 
hands of a relatively small group of people who very generously share their 
time and expertise---Uwe himself being perhaps the most active member of this 
group. What they prefer is the law of lyx-land!

Cheers,

S.

Re: LyX Forum?

[Uwe Stöhr]

Stefano Franchi schrieb:

The issue though, is that the great support Lyx provides is (mostly) in the 
hands of a relatively small group of people who very generously share their 
time and expertise---Uwe himself being perhaps the most active member of this 
group. What they prefer is the law of lyx-land!


What I prefer is hopefully never a law! LyX used mailing lists for years long 
before I joined LyX.
(I started supporting LyX with its mailing list btw. and I cannot think right now that anything else 
might be easier. And I'm 29, so not too old not to know the possibilities of forums ;-) )


regards Uwe

Re: LyX Forum?

[Manveru]

2009/3/29 Piero Faustini pierofaust...@hotmail.com

 [...]
 Integrate doesn't mean computer-pro. Sometimes it's opposite to pro.
 Children use forums. They always had, because they are very, VERY simple.
 Lists
 are not that simple, comparing to forums (unless you care about cookies,
 which
 99% of people don't). Everything has its thumb up and down. I believe you
 that
 with lists you can do many things which a forum can't. But that's not the
 point. Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages, so they
 are
 for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess they will be
 ONLY
 for pro. Their worst difficoulty is to LEARN how it works (I spent some
 days
 puzzling and puzzling and sending messages to wrong addresses till I went
 to
 GMANE and used its forum-like interface)

 [...]
 I found Lyx.org just because I read something, in a forum ;) of students. I
 try
 to use it and I get it working but that very day I get stuck trying to use
 some
 pics. Guide says I have to learn how to install it properly, and the basics
 of
 LaTeX. That's fair. Then I have to tweak something in the preamble. Ok. I
 have
 to change completely my Word-formatted mind. HARD, BUT I CAN. I just need
 some
 help, and LaTeX forums are not for LyXers and they're always with all that
 \$%.
 Then, they say me that I have to learn how to use a list (something I heard
 of
 at the beginning of the internet). I try once, twice. I give up lists. I
 give
 up LyX.
 Hope will be better for next 999 users but I don't believe it.

 Against common Scientific-pro based opinions, I think LyX strategy should
 be
 GO TO THE PEOPLE, to students, to humanists, to people who are not
 computer-
 pros which are millions. They still have to learn something aboute code
 etc.
 but the LyX community should ban everything which could stay between them
 and
 LyX and of course between them and LyX information (and is not strictly
 needed). Lists are just one of these little annoying things.[...]


Don't feel offended, but I think LyX was not designed for children. Do not
understand me wrong, but I am using Internet for 13 years and I know that
news groups and lists have veeery looong tradition. Are there was times when
even children uses them. Today we have the era of Web 2.0, but this does not
mean that everything should be available by the the web. Personally forums
are not my favourite way of discussion, they are fine for advetising. Mail
lists are not ideal too, as often I receive lot of infomation I do not need
- but in case of LyX it teach me a lot.

Backing to the children subject, I want to tell you that I was a witness
of specific change in the Internet itself in about 1999. In Poland that time
new service from our national telecom operation become available - it
allows to call to the internet by modem for the price of connection only. It
was a revolution, beacause large number of people get wide access to the
global village, mainly childrens. The level of discussion on medias like
maillists and IRC quickly has gone very low. Today we - all veterans of
Internet in Poland - call these people childrens of neostrada, as they
still represent low level of discussion and culture. Nestrada - for you
information - is the name of another service from national operator sold to
France Telecom based on ADSL... I think this do not need more comment.

I miss that times before commercialized Internet.

-- 
Manveru
jabber: manv...@manveru.pl
gg: 1624001
  http://www.manveru.pl

Re: LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Stefano Franchi fran...@... writes:

 Like Uwe, I am not quite sure I understand what's so difficult about lists. 
That 
 is, unless you are used to reading mail in a browser and never used a mail 
 client.

Of course I use a webclient (M$Hotmail, the worst ever, but who cares?) and 
everything ends up a mess.


 Lists have also many advantages, which Uwe summed up nicely. However, 
 I am also old enough to have used e-mail for years before browsing came into 
 existence, so what Piero is saying may just be a pointer to a generational 
 gap.
 

Good point. A gap. The most experienced (or advanced) Internet users are 
nowadays less than basic-traditional-computer users and only 1 on 100 of them 
used the internet in the mid 90s, where newsgroups and lists were the most 
advancede way to communicate, but this is ancient history. The same with the 
80s: advanced personal computers users and programmers knew nothing about basic 
electricity knoledge, which was the most advanced knoledge for their fathers. 
Who cared once? 
Nowadays the future is the advanced social networking, but the open community 
seems to be far less interested in it than companie$. This is absolutely the 
worst thing of the internet today. Glorious habits should evolve as everything 
else. What I lack most of LyX (and LaTeX)? Web-based environments, web-based 
bibliographies, web-based computing.. ok, we can't have EVERYTHING, but the 
various Google-Whatever are the best creatures of the net and this is the 
future, we all know it.

 The issue though, is that the great support Lyx provides is (mostly) in the 
 hands of a relatively small group of people who very generously share their 
 time and expertise---Uwe himself being perhaps the most active member of this 
 group. What they prefer is the law of lyx-land!

Without all of you I would be almost dead. Thank you with the entire lyxer 
heart.

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009, Piero Faustini wrote:

else. What I lack most of LyX (and LaTeX)? Web-based environments, 
web-based bibliographies, web-based computing.. ok, we can't have 
EVERYTHING, but the various Google-Whatever are the best creatures of 
the net and this is the future, we all know it.


Could you be more specific? We have:
* web site
* wiki site
* mailing lists (i.e a forum)

As for LaTeX-wise, there's something that can take wiki pages via LaTeX to 
PDF, so that's basically web based LaTeX computing for you?


I really am curious,
Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009, Uwe Stöhr wrote:

(I started supporting LyX with its mailing list btw. and I cannot think 
right now that anything else might be easier. And I'm 29, so not too old 
not to know the possibilities of forums ;-) )


I'm 35, so I don't see the advantages with forums... or lists for that 
matter over news groups ;-) ;-)


Seriously though, why is a forum different from a list?

/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: LyX Forum?

[Rich Shepard]

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009, Christian Ridderstr?m wrote:


Seriously though, why is a forum different from a list?


/Christian,

  Two differences, as far as I know:

  1.) Fora are hosted on a web site and mail lists are hosted on a server
that needs no more than a mailing list manager (MLM). The former requires a
GUI while the latter is text based (although subscribers can use a GUI MUA
-- go ahead, say that quickly -- to read the text).

  2.) Fora require subscribers to actively load the apppropriate web page
and pull down the articles/messages of interest to them. A mail list pushes
the messages to each subscriber who is free to read, delete, or otherwise
manage the messages sent.

  Personally, I much prefer mail lists. It is many times easier to check my
MUA and tab through the various mail list folders at my convenience (all
done without removing my hands from the keyboard) than it is to open a new
firefox tab, enter the URL (or select the bookmark using the pointy device),
then scroll through the list on the presented web page.

  Usenet used to be OK. Now, unfortunately, it's jammed with spam and folks
with attitudes. Mail lists tend to be more polite and helpful.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: LyX Forum?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 04:56:18PM +, Piero Faustini wrote:
 Uwe Stöhr uwesto...@... writes:
  Why is it hard to use? You sing the mailing list and then get the
  emails as described here:
  http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists The whole list is archived at
  various websites.
 
 How many people use mailing lists? How many use forums? Say 1 lister
 every 20 forumers? Say 1 to 10 (and I'm fair)?

Numbers alone do not matter much in such cases. Some things simply
do not scale linearily.

And - I'd expect an average LaTeX user to be able to handle e-mail...

 It's not me who says lists are difficoult, it's people. I never used
 lists before knowing LyX.

Other people used mailing lists before web forums had been in use.

For me, a mailing list (or real news) has two major advantages: I can
search and filter for any criteria I want to, and I can use the text
editor I like. Both is usually not (painlessly) possible with a web
interface. 

 They always had, because
 they are very, VERY simple. Lists are not that simple, comparing to
 forums (unless you care about cookies, which 99% of people don't).

Simple is good, as long as it does the job. But not often for more than that.

 Everything has its thumb up and down. I believe you that with lists
 you can do many things which a forum can't. But that's not the point.

That's exactly the point ;-} 

I can scan a dozen mailing lists easily on a daily base. I would not do
the same for web forums.

 Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages, so they are
 for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess they
 will be ONLY for pro. Their worst difficoulty is to LEARN how it works
 (I spent some days puzzling and puzzling and sending messages to wrong
 addresses till I went to GMANE and used its forum-like interface)

So you found a solution that fits your need. Good.

Andre'
 

Re: LyX Forum?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 08:34:14PM +0200, Christian Ridderström wrote:
 [...] Seriously though, why is a forum different from a list?

The problem seems to be that he uses a web interface to read a mails.
Of course, with such a background, a well-organized forum _is_ an
advantage. Like using a bike instead of walking. But then, steam
engines have been invented more than twenty years ago ;-}

Andre'

Re: LyX Forum?

[Steve Litt]

On Sunday 29 March 2009 09:15:59 am Piero Faustini wrote:
 Hello,
 I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
 I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common
 users (I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates
 in my mailbox).
 A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we
 use a normal forum site?
 There's a LyX forum in LaTeX community but it's not as active as this
 discussion list; anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted
 something for this list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because
 they didn't know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.
 I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be
 simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???
 Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless)
 way to discourage LyX users.
 Thx
 Piero

If this list became forum only, I'd be gone. As a person on 20 mailing lists, 
I like the fact that posts get sent to me. I don't have time to go around 
looking for them.

I tried forums last century and found after a brief period of keeping up, I 
stopped looking for posts as it became too time consuming.

The LyX list can be accessed via gmane.org, so we have the best of both 
worlds. I don't see the advantages of eliminating the mailing list, and once 
again, if it were eliminated, I wouldn't join the forum.

I'm just one guy so it's no big deal, but if several other people also went 
away it wouldn't be good, especially if some of them were people who answered 
questions.

The LyX mailing list's worked well for me since 2001, and a quick gmane search 
shows posts as far back as February 1999 (happy tenth everyone!). My advice 
would be, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: LyX Forum?

[Rich Shepard]

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009, Andre Poenitz wrote:


It's not me who says lists are difficoult, it's people. I never used
lists before knowing LyX.



Other people used mailing lists before web forums had been in use.


  First there was ARPANET (text based), then BitNet (text based), then
Usenet (text based); with tools such as Archie (text based) and WAIS (text
based).

  Of course, if one grows up inculcated by Microsoft and accepts that there
way is the Only One True Way, then one has a terribly narrow view of the
computing world.


They always had, because they are very, VERY simple. Lists are not that
simple, comparing to forums (unless you care about cookies, which 99% of
people don't).


  Feh! That's complete nonsense. However, ... if someone finds it very
difficult to look at a list of messages on his/her own machine, while
finding it simple to look at them on someone else's machine via a web
interface I can understand the confusion.


Lists are difficoult to use comparing to their advantages,


  How...exactly?


so they are for PRO users, almost always have been, and in future I guess
they will be ONLY for pro. Their worst difficoulty is to LEARN how it
works (I spent some days puzzling and puzzling and sending messages to
wrong addresses till I went to GMANE and used its forum-like interface)


  Ooh! So because you couldn't figure out how to read and send mail they're
a bad idea. And only PROs (however you define them) are smart enough to
figure them out. Interesting.


So you found a solution that fits your need. Good.


  Yup. And it's a GUI front end to the mail list.

  I've never understood why people want pictures to read text. The last time
I saw a book with text in different colors and typefaces, and illustrated
with pictures was when I read childrens' books to my young son. Books for
adults (well, most adults who don't read comic books, anyway) don't have all
the enhancements of a GUI; neither to newspapers.

Rich

Re: LyX Forum?

[rgheck]

Rich Shepard wrote:
Books for adults (well, most adults who don't read comic books, 
anyway) don't have all the enhancements of a GUI; neither do newspapers.


Which, I'm sad to say, may explain why newspapers all around the US are 
shutting their doors. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the several dozen 
people who still read a newspaper. But perhaps we have learned something.


rh

Re: LyX Forum?

[john]

Rich Shepard wrote:
   Usenet used to be OK. Now, unfortunately, it's jammed with spam and
 folks
 with attitudes. Mail lists tend to be more polite and helpful.
Amen to that.
And the LyX list is extraordinarily polite, helpful, relevant, and
knowledgable.

I have used several lists related to Linux and opensource development
projects.
Unfortunately some are afflicted with abusive, ignorant, politically or
doctrinally motivated people grinding their sectarian axes inappropriately.
The LyX list, in contrast, is a haven of respectful and capable people.
The LyX list has never failed me in my attempts to find answers to
questions about the arcana of LyX.

 Rich

Re: LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Hello once again.

I can't reply to all.
I can read with my eyes not even one of you agreed with any of my arguments 
(not speaking of the thesis). I only want to point out that many counter-
arguments where correct but quite off-topic, many where correct but weak, the 
most strong ones were based on misundestanding of what I wanted to express (my 
bad english being the 1st responsible, of course), the most deep were just 
opinions, while I found most interesting what Stefano said (sorry, he's the 
only fellow Italian) and when it pointed out the gap feeling.
I will not speak of FORA (I have no doubt that Rich after hearing a female 
choir performance always shout loud the italian word Brave! rather than 
Bravi, Brava or Bravo ;) ) cause this transcend. I will not get 
philosophical, or I'll try.
I'll reply to Manveru.

 Don't feel offended, but I think LyX was not designed for children. Do not
 understand me wrong, but I am using Internet for 13 years and I know that
 news groups and lists have veeery looong tradition. Are there was times when
 even children uses them. Today we have the era of Web 2.0, but this does not
 mean that everything should be available by the the web. Personally forums
 are not my favourite way of discussion, they are fine for advetising. Mail
 lists are not ideal too, as often I receive lot of infomation I do not need
 - but in case of LyX it teach me a lot.

Of course about children, I was pointing out that forums are VERY simple. And 
it's exactly what I was trying to explain: the list concept is VERY old 
(whatever this means). Yes, also e-mail is old, and almost every single human 
being uses it, but my 19-years old sister last week told me she doesn't care 
about e-mail since he has her favourite Web 2.0 communication basis: I find it 
terrible, but it is 2009 REALITY. (and BTW, speaking of intelligence/culture, I 
think my sister stays in the upper 5% of her age).


 
 Backing to the children subject, I want to tell you that I was a witness
 of specific change in the Internet itself in about 1999. In Poland that time
 new service from our national telecom operation become available - it
 allows to call to the internet by modem for the price of connection only. It
 was a revolution, beacause large number of people get wide access to the
 global village, mainly childrens. The level of discussion on medias like
 maillists and IRC quickly has gone very low. Today we - all veterans of
 Internet in Poland - call these people childrens of neostrada, as they
 still represent low level of discussion and culture. Nestrada - for you
 information - is the name of another service from national operator sold to
 France Telecom based on ADSL... I think this do not need more comment.
 


As a poor Włoski I don't know everything about this little people making noise 
in the internet, which is a serious thing. But perhaps you agree with this, 
although is not about the internet:

“Elegance, purity, measure, which were the principles of our art, had gradually 
surrended to the new style, simple and pretentious, adopted by this times of 
superficial talent. Brains that, for education and habits, can't think anything 
other than dresses, fashion, gossip, novel reading and moral corruption, have a 
hard time to feel more elaborate and less nervous pleasure of science and art.”

Don't feel offended, but I don't agree with this, and I'll explain why.
In my bare 33 years of age, I learned that I can learn from the poor, the 
uncultured, the younger. At least, the smallest pieces of great wisdom are to 
be found in the mechanized habits of the million. To live in the mountain is 
not to live. The community should spread to as many people as possible, 
choosing the most popular, the easiest. Being aware of the gap with the younger 
and trying to understand him is the only way not to grow too old too soon. 
Saying that  neostrada children destroyed everything worth of the internet is 
perhaps being completely blind in front of the great revolutions the internet 
(or whatever its name will be) shows us, and is building thanks to THAT 
uncultured young boy. This revolution just started, and I can't say where it 
will go.

 I miss that times before commercialized Internet.

How many of our parents miss the time when Internet didn't exist?
How many of our grandfathers missed the time before computers and electronics?
How many of our ancestors missed the time before the press, or before writing? 
And, of course, how many of our older brothers miss the time when LaTeX was 
just plain LaTeX without WYSIWYG crap?

I can't use mailing lists but I believe they are really smart. The last time I 
installed Thunderbird I think it was beta, but I was already sure I would have 
never and never save a single mail in my PCs: the future was the WEB and now 
it's the present, and I stay with the present, if I can't with the future. Full 
stop.
I only can tell you that you should keep your eyes open: faster, wider 

Re: LyX Forum?

[Doug Laidlaw]

On Monday 30 March 2009 12:15:59 am Piero Faustini wrote:
 Hello,
 I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
 I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common
 users (I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates
 in my mailbox).
 A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we
 use a normal forum site?
 There's a LyX forum in LaTeX community but it's not as active as this
 discussion list; anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted
 something for this list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because
 they didn't know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.
 I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be
 simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???
 Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless)
 way to discourage LyX users.
 Thx
 Piero

I prefere a mailing list.  Actually, I prefer a newsgroup, with a limited 
number of posts on my box, but GMANE insists that I use my real email 
address.  It is good protection, but means that my email address would become 
visible through Usenet on other groups.  That is why I switched to a mailing 
list.  Like Steve Litt, I want posts sent to me.

At the same time, I have few problems so far, and any that I have are probably 
somewhere in the archives.  I only browse what comes in.  I would be O.K. 
with a forum.

Just my vote.

Doug.

LyX Forum?

[Piero Faustini]

Hello, 
I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users 
(I use GMANE for writing/browsing but I still receive daily updates in my 
mailbox).
A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we use 
a normal forum site?
There's a LyX forum in "LaTeX community" but it's not as active as this 
discussion list; anyway I found that, as I did, other users posted something 
for this list in Nabble and then didn't get the answers because they didn't 
know Nabble don't post messages not posted directly there.
I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be 
simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???
Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless) way 
to discourage LyX users.
Thx
Piero

Re: LyX Forum?

[Uwe Stöhr]

Piero Faustini schrieb:


I wonder why could not these discussions been moved to a forum.
I mean, the discussion list is great but is very hard to use for common users


Why is it hard to use? You sing the mailing list and then get the emails as 
described here:
http://www.lyx.org/MailingLists
The whole list is archived at various websites.

A forum-like interface like Nabble would be much better but... why don't we use 
a normal forum site?


I don't see an advantage. At forums I always have to log in before I can post and I have to open the 
webpage to reply. That means I every time have to enable cookies in my browser, then enter my user 
name and password and then write afterwards I have to delete my browser history and disable cookies. 
With a mailing list I only have to subscribe once and get the emails whenever I want to. I can also 
store important mails at my PC, forward messages, compose messages out of several other ones, CC and 
BCC people,  All this is not possible with a forum.


I think current (as past) LyX politic should be GO FOR THE AVERAGE USER, be 
simple and easy. Why LaTeX have a lot of forum sites, while LyX doesn't???
Lack of information or access to information is the worst (and senseless) way 
to discourage LyX users.


I think that LyX is one of the best documented projects and our user support is outstanding. When 
you have a problem with LyX you'll usually get a solution within a day or two. So I'm interested why 
you think LyX lacks information.


regards Uwe