Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 04:00:13AM -0800, Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Helge Hafting [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org; LyX Devel lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:48 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder why nobody seems to want to fix tex though. Helge Hafting http://groups.google.com/group/comp.text.tex/msg/6d9312da816b96f7?hl=en; Dan Luecking wrote: TeX has been designed with a basic command \input. Normally it takes a space as ending the name. MiKTeX amends this to allow spaces if the name is (double) quoted. On the otherhand, some tools used with TeX don't like spaces. If a chain of tools is invoked, quotes may get stripped, and if even one tool does this (batch files processing can do this) then later tools in the chain, even space-aware tools, will fail. ... Microsoft was just showing off when it named system default directories with spaces. This already makes it confusing to read Sure they did a stupid thing, no disagreement there. Environmental variables. It forces additional levels of filename processing in programs (check for quotes around flenames, add them only if not already there. Try to program batch files for all the cases.) I'm sure Microsoft is intentionally trying to make it hard for Unix-style tools to work in Windows. Yuck - I guess the only way is to extend the script language with a normalizepath function that handles all those cases. Somehow, I am not sure they were trying to be difficult to unix tools. I guess they were merely trying to be user friendly without thinking much about the consequences of their actions. Just as activeX webpages/mail _probably_ wasn't intended to be a way of spreading viruses. Mac had filenames with spaces, the typical ms user like filenames such as my stuff so ms had to enable this. Then they discovered problems with their own limited command line tools, and went on to implement quoting badly. Unix tools don't seem to have such big problems with spaces in paths, at least the shell escaping works fine when I occationally move files with spaces around. -- SH: To me, Dan seems like a reliable supplier of information. TeX was invented around 1982 and didn't run on Windows. Leslie Lamport writes: In the early 80s, I was planning to write the Great American Concurrency Book. I was a TeX user, so I would need a set of macros. I thought that, with a little extra effort, I could make my macros usable by others. Don Knuth had begun issuing early releases of the current version of TeX, and I figured I could write what would become its standard macro package. That was the beginning of LaTeX. I was planning to write a user manual, but it never occurred to me that anyone would actually pay money for it. In 1983,... SH: Maybe Win95 had paths with spaces. Win98 had paths with spaces which needed to be double quoted (blah blah blah). WinXP works quite well with spaces. My point is that TeX was designed to work the way it does, it is not a bug. I don't think TeX would be easy to fix and retain compatibility with earlier files. Should the next word of input after a space part of the filename/path or when TeX usually begins operation? I've also read that \includegraphics used to have a problem with paths with spaces. Angus says this was fixed and he says bibtex/natbib has not been fixed yet. I am not so sure that a Miktex/ProTeXt developer is going to see this as a problem/bug with Miktex. I've been reading about the hassle of integrating Auctex-preview into Xemacs. The Linux world doesn't take responsibility for fixing smaller packages that work with their big package, or even go so far as to make it easy to include them. Helge wrote: The best fix is to have tex fixed. SH: Perhaps you can understand my doubt that this is a viable or even optimal solution, considering backward compatibility. Depends on to what extent this backward compatibility is needed. Surely changing \input won't be trivial - but if the rest of (la)tex is changed to accomodate this at the same time, will the breakage still be enormous? Latex2e broke third party packages as well, but that didn't stop it from becoming widespread. The way I see this, it isn't merely a LyX problem, it could hit anyone using tex on windows. To me, it looks like something at least worth considering for anyone wanting to provide (la)tex for windows. And if linux someday become a popular desktop os (it already has a nice userfriendly desktop after all) then users
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 04:00:13AM -0800, Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Helge Hafting [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org; LyX Devel lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:48 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder why nobody seems to want to fix tex though. Helge Hafting http://groups.google.com/group/comp.text.tex/msg/6d9312da816b96f7?hl=en; Dan Luecking wrote: TeX has been designed with a basic command \input. Normally it takes a space as ending the name. MiKTeX amends this to allow spaces if the name is (double) quoted. On the otherhand, some tools used with TeX don't like spaces. If a chain of tools is invoked, quotes may get stripped, and if even one tool does this (batch files processing can do this) then later tools in the chain, even space-aware tools, will fail. ... Microsoft was just showing off when it named system default directories with spaces. This already makes it confusing to read Sure they did a stupid thing, no disagreement there. Environmental variables. It forces additional levels of filename processing in programs (check for quotes around flenames, add them only if not already there. Try to program batch files for all the cases.) I'm sure Microsoft is intentionally trying to make it hard for Unix-style tools to work in Windows. Yuck - I guess the only way is to extend the script language with a normalizepath function that handles all those cases. Somehow, I am not sure they were trying to be difficult to unix tools. I guess they were merely trying to be user friendly without thinking much about the consequences of their actions. Just as activeX webpages/mail _probably_ wasn't intended to be a way of spreading viruses. Mac had filenames with spaces, the typical ms user like filenames such as my stuff so ms had to enable this. Then they discovered problems with their own limited command line tools, and went on to implement quoting badly. Unix tools don't seem to have such big problems with spaces in paths, at least the shell escaping works fine when I occationally move files with spaces around. -- SH: To me, Dan seems like a reliable supplier of information. TeX was invented around 1982 and didn't run on Windows. Leslie Lamport writes: In the early 80s, I was planning to write the Great American Concurrency Book. I was a TeX user, so I would need a set of macros. I thought that, with a little extra effort, I could make my macros usable by others. Don Knuth had begun issuing early releases of the current version of TeX, and I figured I could write what would become its standard macro package. That was the beginning of LaTeX. I was planning to write a user manual, but it never occurred to me that anyone would actually pay money for it. In 1983,... SH: Maybe Win95 had paths with spaces. Win98 had paths with spaces which needed to be double quoted (blah blah blah). WinXP works quite well with spaces. My point is that TeX was designed to work the way it does, it is not a bug. I don't think TeX would be easy to fix and retain compatibility with earlier files. Should the next word of input after a space part of the filename/path or when TeX usually begins operation? I've also read that \includegraphics used to have a problem with paths with spaces. Angus says this was fixed and he says bibtex/natbib has not been fixed yet. I am not so sure that a Miktex/ProTeXt developer is going to see this as a problem/bug with Miktex. I've been reading about the hassle of integrating Auctex-preview into Xemacs. The Linux world doesn't take responsibility for fixing smaller packages that work with their big package, or even go so far as to make it easy to include them. Helge wrote: The best fix is to have tex fixed. SH: Perhaps you can understand my doubt that this is a viable or even optimal solution, considering backward compatibility. Depends on to what extent this backward compatibility is needed. Surely changing \input won't be trivial - but if the rest of (la)tex is changed to accomodate this at the same time, will the breakage still be enormous? Latex2e broke third party packages as well, but that didn't stop it from becoming widespread. The way I see this, it isn't merely a LyX problem, it could hit anyone using tex on windows. To me, it looks like something at least worth considering for anyone wanting to provide (la)tex for windows. And if linux someday become a popular desktop os (it already has a nice userfriendly desktop after all) then users
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 04:00:13AM -0800, Stephen Harris wrote:
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Helge Hafting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Bo Peng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org>; "LyX Devel" <lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
>
>
> >The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing
> >a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder
> >why nobody seems to want to fix tex though.
> >
> >Helge Hafting
> >
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.text.tex/msg/6d9312da816b96f7?hl=en;
> Dan Luecking wrote:
> "TeX has been designed with a basic command \input. Normally it takes a
> space as ending the name. MiKTeX amends this to allow spaces if the
> name is (double) quoted. On the otherhand, some tools used with TeX
> don't like spaces. If a chain of tools is invoked, quotes may get
> stripped, and if even one tool does this (batch files processing can
> do this) then later tools in the chain, even space-aware tools,
> will fail. ...
>
> Microsoft was just showing off when it named system default
> directories with spaces. This already makes it confusing to read
Sure they did a stupid thing, no disagreement there.
> Environmental variables. It forces additional levels of filename
> processing in programs (check for quotes around flenames, add them
> only if not already there. Try to program batch files for all the
> cases.) I'm sure Microsoft is intentionally trying to make it
> hard for Unix-style tools to work in Windows."
>
Yuck - I guess the only way is to extend the script language with
a "normalizepath" function that handles all those cases.
Somehow, I am not sure they were trying to be difficult to unix tools.
I guess they were merely trying to be "user friendly" without
thinking much about the consequences of their actions. Just as
activeX webpages/mail _probably_ wasn't intended to be a way of
spreading viruses. Mac had filenames with spaces, the typical
"ms user" like filenames such as "my stuff" so ms had to enable this.
Then they discovered problems with their own limited command line
tools, and went on to implement quoting badly.
Unix tools don't seem to have such big problems with spaces in paths,
at least the shell escaping works fine when I occationally move
files with spaces around.
> --
>
> SH: To me, Dan seems like a reliable supplier of information.
> TeX was invented around 1982 and didn't run on Windows.
>
> Leslie Lamport writes:
>
> "In the early 80s, I was planning to write the Great American Concurrency
> Book. I was a TeX user, so I would need a set of macros. I thought that,
> with a little extra effort, I could make my macros usable by others. Don
> Knuth had begun issuing early releases of the current version of TeX, and
> I figured I could write what would become its standard macro package. That
> was the beginning of LaTeX. I was planning to write a user manual, but it
> never occurred to me that anyone would actually pay money for it. In
> 1983,"...
>
>
>
> SH: Maybe Win95 had paths with spaces. Win98 had paths with spaces
> which needed to be double quoted ("blah blah blah"). WinXP works
> quite well with spaces. My point is that TeX was designed to work the
> way it does, it is not a bug. I don't think TeX would be easy to fix and
> retain compatibility with earlier files. Should the next word of input after
> a space part of the filename/path or when TeX usually begins operation?
>
> I've also read that \includegraphics used to have a problem with paths with
> spaces. Angus says this was fixed and he says bibtex/natbib has not been
> fixed yet. I am not so sure that a Miktex/ProTeXt developer is going to
> see this as a problem/bug with Miktex. I've been reading about the hassle
> of integrating Auctex-preview into Xemacs. The Linux world doesn't take
> responsibility for fixing smaller packages that work with their big package,
> or even go so far as to make it easy to include them.
>
>
>
> Helge wrote: > The best fix is to have tex fixed.
>
> SH: Perhaps you can understand my doubt that this is a viable or
> even optimal solution, considering backward compatibility.
>
Depends on to what extent this backward compatibility is needed.
Surely changing \input won't be trivial - but if the rest of
(la)tex is changed to a
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:48:09 +0100 Helge Hafting [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bo Peng wrote: Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. I am amazed as well, in that many people even do not consider this as a bug. A bug report has been created (http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186) and accepted as NEW so we should just wait for someone (Andre? Georg?) to fix it. Feel free to call it a bug - but the bug is not in lyx so an entry in bugzilla.lyx.org is wrong. latex/bibtex is where the bug is, and they have a different forum. I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. You think it'd be better if lyx simply refused, saying no, I can't use that .bst file, because it happens to be in a path with spaces so bibtex is going to choke on it ? There is one reason why that would be a bad move, bibtex might get fixed into accepting paths with spaces someday, and then lyx would be protection against a bug that no longer exist. Then lyx would need to be fixed again. IIRC that was the state of things back when windows lyx couldn't handle spaces in the path to files. The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder why nobody seems to want to fix tex though. Helge Hafting +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Helge Hafting [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org; LyX Devel lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:48 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder why nobody seems to want to fix tex though. Helge Hafting http://groups.google.com/group/comp.text.tex/msg/6d9312da816b96f7?hl=en; Dan Luecking wrote: TeX has been designed with a basic command \input. Normally it takes a space as ending the name. MiKTeX amends this to allow spaces if the name is (double) quoted. On the otherhand, some tools used with TeX don't like spaces. If a chain of tools is invoked, quotes may get stripped, and if even one tool does this (batch files processing can do this) then later tools in the chain, even space-aware tools, will fail. ... Microsoft was just showing off when it named system default directories with spaces. This already makes it confusing to read Environmental variables. It forces additional levels of filename processing in programs (check for quotes around flenames, add them only if not already there. Try to program batch files for all the cases.) I'm sure Microsoft is intentionally trying to make it hard for Unix-style tools to work in Windows. -- SH: To me, Dan seems like a reliable supplier of information. TeX was invented around 1982 and didn't run on Windows. Leslie Lamport writes: In the early 80s, I was planning to write the Great American Concurrency Book. I was a TeX user, so I would need a set of macros. I thought that, with a little extra effort, I could make my macros usable by others. Don Knuth had begun issuing early releases of the current version of TeX, and I figured I could write what would become its standard macro package. That was the beginning of LaTeX. I was planning to write a user manual, but it never occurred to me that anyone would actually pay money for it. In 1983,... SH: Maybe Win95 had paths with spaces. Win98 had paths with spaces which needed to be double quoted (blah blah blah). WinXP works quite well with spaces. My point is that TeX was designed to work the way it does, it is not a bug. I don't think TeX would be easy to fix and retain compatibility with earlier files. Should the next word of input after a space part of the filename/path or when TeX usually begins operation? I've also read that \includegraphics used to have a problem with paths with spaces. Angus says this was fixed and he says bibtex/natbib has not been fixed yet. I am not so sure that a Miktex/ProTeXt developer is going to see this as a problem/bug with Miktex. I've been reading about the hassle of integrating Auctex-preview into Xemacs. The Linux world doesn't take responsibility for fixing smaller packages that work with their big package, or even go so far as to make it easy to include them. Helge wrote: The best fix is to have tex fixed. SH: Perhaps you can understand my doubt that this is a viable or even optimal solution, considering backward compatibility. Helge wrote: Second best is lyx providing a workaround. SH: Not trying to be contentious, but this seems first best to me. And better than the error message idea. How important is fixing this? I do think it has some value; I'm not disputing that. -- Best regards, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:48:09 +0100 Helge Hafting [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bo Peng wrote: Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. I am amazed as well, in that many people even do not consider this as a bug. A bug report has been created (http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186) and accepted as NEW so we should just wait for someone (Andre? Georg?) to fix it. Feel free to call it a bug - but the bug is not in lyx so an entry in bugzilla.lyx.org is wrong. latex/bibtex is where the bug is, and they have a different forum. I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. You think it'd be better if lyx simply refused, saying no, I can't use that .bst file, because it happens to be in a path with spaces so bibtex is going to choke on it ? There is one reason why that would be a bad move, bibtex might get fixed into accepting paths with spaces someday, and then lyx would be protection against a bug that no longer exist. Then lyx would need to be fixed again. IIRC that was the state of things back when windows lyx couldn't handle spaces in the path to files. The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder why nobody seems to want to fix tex though. Helge Hafting +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Helge Hafting [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org; LyX Devel lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:48 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder why nobody seems to want to fix tex though. Helge Hafting http://groups.google.com/group/comp.text.tex/msg/6d9312da816b96f7?hl=en; Dan Luecking wrote: TeX has been designed with a basic command \input. Normally it takes a space as ending the name. MiKTeX amends this to allow spaces if the name is (double) quoted. On the otherhand, some tools used with TeX don't like spaces. If a chain of tools is invoked, quotes may get stripped, and if even one tool does this (batch files processing can do this) then later tools in the chain, even space-aware tools, will fail. ... Microsoft was just showing off when it named system default directories with spaces. This already makes it confusing to read Environmental variables. It forces additional levels of filename processing in programs (check for quotes around flenames, add them only if not already there. Try to program batch files for all the cases.) I'm sure Microsoft is intentionally trying to make it hard for Unix-style tools to work in Windows. -- SH: To me, Dan seems like a reliable supplier of information. TeX was invented around 1982 and didn't run on Windows. Leslie Lamport writes: In the early 80s, I was planning to write the Great American Concurrency Book. I was a TeX user, so I would need a set of macros. I thought that, with a little extra effort, I could make my macros usable by others. Don Knuth had begun issuing early releases of the current version of TeX, and I figured I could write what would become its standard macro package. That was the beginning of LaTeX. I was planning to write a user manual, but it never occurred to me that anyone would actually pay money for it. In 1983,... SH: Maybe Win95 had paths with spaces. Win98 had paths with spaces which needed to be double quoted (blah blah blah). WinXP works quite well with spaces. My point is that TeX was designed to work the way it does, it is not a bug. I don't think TeX would be easy to fix and retain compatibility with earlier files. Should the next word of input after a space part of the filename/path or when TeX usually begins operation? I've also read that \includegraphics used to have a problem with paths with spaces. Angus says this was fixed and he says bibtex/natbib has not been fixed yet. I am not so sure that a Miktex/ProTeXt developer is going to see this as a problem/bug with Miktex. I've been reading about the hassle of integrating Auctex-preview into Xemacs. The Linux world doesn't take responsibility for fixing smaller packages that work with their big package, or even go so far as to make it easy to include them. Helge wrote: The best fix is to have tex fixed. SH: Perhaps you can understand my doubt that this is a viable or even optimal solution, considering backward compatibility. Helge wrote: Second best is lyx providing a workaround. SH: Not trying to be contentious, but this seems first best to me. And better than the error message idea. How important is fixing this? I do think it has some value; I'm not disputing that. -- Best regards, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:48:09 +0100 Helge Hafting <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bo Peng wrote: > > >>Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going > >>to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to > >>play on your own again. > >> > >> > > > >I am amazed as well, in that many people even do not consider this as > >a bug. A bug report has been created > >(http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186) and accepted as NEW so > >we should just wait for someone (Andre? Georg?) to fix it. > > > > > > > Feel free to call it a bug - but the bug is not in lyx so an entry in > bugzilla.lyx.org is wrong. latex/bibtex is where the bug is, > and they have a different forum. > > >I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. > > > >The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a > >normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx > >and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces > >(and be considered as pro-user :-). However, most lyx users do *not* > >know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a > >user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We > >have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, > >.eps etc, why not .bst files? > > > >Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes > >in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and > >produces defective output without warning. > > > You think it'd be better if lyx simply refused, saying "no, > I can't use that .bst file, because it happens to be in a > path with spaces so bibtex is going to choke on it" ? > > There is one reason why that would be a bad move, bibtex > might get fixed into accepting paths with spaces someday, and then > lyx would be protection against a bug that no longer exist. Then > lyx would need to be fixed again. > IIRC that was the state of things back when windows lyx couldn't handle spaces in the path to files. > The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing > a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder > why nobody seems to want to fix tex though. > > Helge Hafting > > +++ > This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System > at the Tel-Aviv University CC. > +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message -
From: "Helge Hafting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Bo Peng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org>; "LyX Devel" <lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing
a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder
why nobody seems to want to fix tex though.
Helge Hafting
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.text.tex/msg/6d9312da816b96f7?hl=en;
Dan Luecking wrote:
"TeX has been designed with a basic command \input. Normally it takes a
space as ending the name. MiKTeX amends this to allow spaces if the
name is (double) quoted. On the otherhand, some tools used with TeX
don't like spaces. If a chain of tools is invoked, quotes may get
stripped, and if even one tool does this (batch files processing can
do this) then later tools in the chain, even space-aware tools,
will fail. ...
Microsoft was just showing off when it named system default
directories with spaces. This already makes it confusing to read
Environmental variables. It forces additional levels of filename
processing in programs (check for quotes around flenames, add them
only if not already there. Try to program batch files for all the
cases.) I'm sure Microsoft is intentionally trying to make it
hard for Unix-style tools to work in Windows."
--
SH: To me, Dan seems like a reliable supplier of information.
TeX was invented around 1982 and didn't run on Windows.
Leslie Lamport writes:
"In the early 80s, I was planning to write the Great American Concurrency
Book. I was a TeX user, so I would need a set of macros. I thought that,
with a little extra effort, I could make my macros usable by others. Don
Knuth had begun issuing early releases of the current version of TeX, and
I figured I could write what would become its standard macro package. That
was the beginning of LaTeX. I was planning to write a user manual, but it
never occurred to me that anyone would actually pay money for it. In
1983,"...
SH: Maybe Win95 had paths with spaces. Win98 had paths with spaces
which needed to be double quoted ("blah blah blah"). WinXP works
quite well with spaces. My point is that TeX was designed to work the
way it does, it is not a bug. I don't think TeX would be easy to fix and
retain compatibility with earlier files. Should the next word of input after
a space part of the filename/path or when TeX usually begins operation?
I've also read that \includegraphics used to have a problem with paths with
spaces. Angus says this was fixed and he says bibtex/natbib has not been
fixed yet. I am not so sure that a Miktex/ProTeXt developer is going to
see this as a problem/bug with Miktex. I've been reading about the hassle
of integrating Auctex-preview into Xemacs. The Linux world doesn't take
responsibility for fixing smaller packages that work with their big package,
or even go so far as to make it easy to include them.
Helge wrote: > The best fix is to have tex fixed.
SH: Perhaps you can understand my doubt that this is a viable or
even optimal solution, considering backward compatibility.
Helge wrote: > Second best is lyx providing a workaround.
SH: Not trying to be contentious, but this seems first best to me.
And better than the error message idea. How important is fixing this?
I do think it has some value; I'm not disputing that.
--
Best regards,
Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote: SH: Apparently, we grasp reality differently because I perceive a snide remark which exaggerated its factual basis, and skirted a true attribution of bugzilla responsibility in order to masquerade as an incredulous adult. I am not sure if I understand that sentence correctly, but if you feel offended by me then I apologize, this was not my intention. I only wanted to express my astonishment about the long discussions. Georg
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Georg Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 2:41 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Stephen Harris wrote: SH: Apparently, we grasp reality differently because I perceive a snide remark I am not sure if I understand that sentence correctly, but if you feel offended by me then I apologize, this was not my intention. I only wanted to express my astonishment about the long discussions. Georg Perhaps I was overly sensitive because of allowing myself to be irritated by other posts. I actually admire you guys who can do and don't have to resort to blathering about Windows guidelines. I compiled 1.4.0pre3 and was quite pleased with the result and I see you doing a lot of work there. Pardon my distraction. Regards, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Bo Peng wrote: Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. I am amazed as well, in that many people even do not consider this as a bug. A bug report has been created (http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186) and accepted as NEW so we should just wait for someone (Andre? Georg?) to fix it. Feel free to call it a bug - but the bug is not in lyx so an entry in bugzilla.lyx.org is wrong. latex/bibtex is where the bug is, and they have a different forum. I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. You think it'd be better if lyx simply refused, saying no, I can't use that .bst file, because it happens to be in a path with spaces so bibtex is going to choke on it ? There is one reason why that would be a bad move, bibtex might get fixed into accepting paths with spaces someday, and then lyx would be protection against a bug that no longer exist. Then lyx would need to be fixed again. The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder why nobody seems to want to fix tex though. Helge Hafting
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote: SH: Apparently, we grasp reality differently because I perceive a snide remark which exaggerated its factual basis, and skirted a true attribution of bugzilla responsibility in order to masquerade as an incredulous adult. I am not sure if I understand that sentence correctly, but if you feel offended by me then I apologize, this was not my intention. I only wanted to express my astonishment about the long discussions. Georg
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Georg Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 2:41 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Stephen Harris wrote: SH: Apparently, we grasp reality differently because I perceive a snide remark I am not sure if I understand that sentence correctly, but if you feel offended by me then I apologize, this was not my intention. I only wanted to express my astonishment about the long discussions. Georg Perhaps I was overly sensitive because of allowing myself to be irritated by other posts. I actually admire you guys who can do and don't have to resort to blathering about Windows guidelines. I compiled 1.4.0pre3 and was quite pleased with the result and I see you doing a lot of work there. Pardon my distraction. Regards, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Bo Peng wrote: Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. I am amazed as well, in that many people even do not consider this as a bug. A bug report has been created (http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186) and accepted as NEW so we should just wait for someone (Andre? Georg?) to fix it. Feel free to call it a bug - but the bug is not in lyx so an entry in bugzilla.lyx.org is wrong. latex/bibtex is where the bug is, and they have a different forum. I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. You think it'd be better if lyx simply refused, saying no, I can't use that .bst file, because it happens to be in a path with spaces so bibtex is going to choke on it ? There is one reason why that would be a bad move, bibtex might get fixed into accepting paths with spaces someday, and then lyx would be protection against a bug that no longer exist. Then lyx would need to be fixed again. The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder why nobody seems to want to fix tex though. Helge Hafting
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote: > SH: Apparently, we grasp reality differently because I perceive a snide > remark which exaggerated its factual basis, and skirted a true attribution > of bugzilla responsibility in order to masquerade as an incredulous adult. I am not sure if I understand that sentence correctly, but if you feel offended by me then I apologize, this was not my intention. I only wanted to express my astonishment about the long discussions. Georg
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: "Georg Baum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 2:41 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Stephen Harris wrote: SH: Apparently, we grasp reality differently because I perceive a snide remark I am not sure if I understand that sentence correctly, but if you feel offended by me then I apologize, this was not my intention. I only wanted to express my astonishment about the long discussions. Georg Perhaps I was overly sensitive because of allowing myself to be irritated by other posts. I actually admire you guys who can do and don't have to resort to blathering about Windows guidelines. I compiled 1.4.0pre3 and was quite pleased with the result and I see you doing a lot of work there. Pardon my distraction. Regards, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Bo Peng wrote: Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. I am amazed as well, in that many people even do not consider this as a bug. A bug report has been created (http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186) and accepted as NEW so we should just wait for someone (Andre? Georg?) to fix it. Feel free to call it a bug - but the bug is not in lyx so an entry in bugzilla.lyx.org is wrong. latex/bibtex is where the bug is, and they have a different forum. I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. You think it'd be better if lyx simply refused, saying "no, I can't use that .bst file, because it happens to be in a path with spaces so bibtex is going to choke on it" ? There is one reason why that would be a bad move, bibtex might get fixed into accepting paths with spaces someday, and then lyx would be protection against a bug that no longer exist. Then lyx would need to be fixed again. The best fix is to have tex fixed. Second best is lyx providing a workaround. Either approach needs a volunteer - I wonder why nobody seems to want to fix tex though. Helge Hafting
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features. ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere. You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the spaces. I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow. The fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows handles spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing something wrong, esspecially since you need to expect spaces in windows (a lot of regular users in windows don't know how to move the home directory from C:\Documents and Settings\user\My Documents not to mention that its impossible with XP home edition, you need the professional for that. If the people can't come to LyX, bring LyX to the $People, Stephen +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:52 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features. ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere. You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the spaces. I thought I was dropping a hint that there is a difference between the Linux and Windows file systems and the characters they allow. I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow. The fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows handles spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing something wrong, Nope, your logic fails. The way this works on Linux is much different than the workaround the LyX developers used. Not only that, it is nearly impossible for it to work the same way on Windows as it does on Linux. It would require changing TeX itself. Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054 When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You can use special characters that are typically not valid by escaping the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows. The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are not supported in Windows file or folder names: * Slash mark (/) Backslash (\) Quotation mark ( ) ^^ * Colon (:) * Asterisk (*) * Question mark (?) * Angle brackets ( ) * Pipe (|) Micha: everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows? Micha: so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. SH: There may exist a workaround in Windows (temp) but that does not mean it works because of your logic of spaces working in Linux. 13 July 2005 Axel Rasche reported that spaces in the file path caused BibTeX to fail. The adopted solution copies the BibTeX data base to the temp directory, mangling its name in the process into something that's both recognizable to the user and useable by BibTeX. SH: The part that is useable by Bibtex contains _no spaces_. Micha continues: especially since you need to expect spaces in windows (a lot of regular users in windows don't know how to move the home directory from C:\Documents and Settings\user\My Documents not to mention that its impossible with XP home edition, you need the professional for that. Why did you bring this up? It seems like an imaginary issue. The regular user installs the Miktex default to C:\texmf which has a C:\texmf\bibtex\bst sub-directory The default for custom bst files is C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst The default Working directory for LyX is C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents The default Temporary directory for LyX is C:\Documents and Settings\username\Local Settings\Temp\ This works just fine for the regular user. There is no need to move their home directory. Nor did I advocate that. I mentioned that Dan's solution seemed a bit like overkill. This problem has nothing to do with regular user experience. The problem was demonstrated by a poweruser who decided to put his .bst file in a directory with spaces and then browse to it. The regular user just follows the Miktex recommended install procedure and doesn't have
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stephen Harris wrote: Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054 When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You can use special characters that are typically not valid by escaping the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows. This information not entirely correct and is a definite sign of people confusing how you work with files from a program (using OS functions like fopen()) and in the shell (writing mv foo.txt bar.txt for example). Filenames in Unix-like filesystems can consist of arbitrary bytes with just two exceptions: * The forward slash (/) since it denotes the directory hierachy. * The null byte 0x00. All other bytes are allowed and treated transparently by all filesystem functions. Try it, create a file named foonewlinebar like this: touch $(echo -e foo\\nbar) delete it again with rm $(echo -e foo\\nbar) :-) The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are not supported in Windows file or folder names: * Slash mark (/) Not supported in Unix either. See the Reserved Chars column in the table at the bottom of this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filename Micha: everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows? You cannot escape a space under Unix, there is simply no such concept on the filesystem level. In the *shell* there is naturally such a concept since it breaks on (white-)spaces, but that is something different and other programs should not deal with the spaces. [...] The default for custom bst files is C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst No, that is only for custom files which you want every other LaTeX project to use -- for a file which is custom-build to just a single document I will consider the directory with the document as the default. I guess that is where our differences lie -- you consider the C:\localtexmf directoy the only proper place for custom files, and indeed it would be good if everybody would just place their things there. But being able to have an entire document in one folder (placed wherever, even in paths with spaces) is also valuable. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgpKEJtRSvipm.pgp Description: PGP signature
[Fwd: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller]
Anyway, forget it, I'm eating my hat, it also doesn't work on linux. On the other hand, under linux everything is treated as a relative path so including a bib file works fine through lyx no matter where it is. This can be a partial work around also under windows. I still think that latex needs to be redesigned in this respect as paths with spaces are quite common nowadays (I see them also under linux now with all the gui file browsers) Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features. ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere. You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the spaces. I thought I was dropping a hint that there is a difference between the Linux and Windows file systems and the characters they allow. I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow. The fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows handles spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing something wrong, Nope, your logic fails. The way this works on Linux is much different than the workaround the LyX developers used. Not only that, it is nearly impossible for it to work the same way on Windows as it does on Linux. It would require changing TeX itself. Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054 When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You can use special characters that are typically not valid by escaping the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows. The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are not supported in Windows file or folder names: * Slash mark (/) Backslash (\) Quotation mark ( ) ^^ * Colon (:) * Asterisk (*) * Question mark (?) * Angle brackets ( ) * Pipe (|) Micha: everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows? Micha: so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. SH: There may exist a workaround in Windows (temp) but that does not mean it works because of your logic of spaces working in Linux. 13 July 2005 Axel Rasche reported that spaces in the file path caused BibTeX to fail. The adopted solution copies the BibTeX data base to the temp directory, mangling its name in the process into something that's both recognizable to the user and useable by BibTeX. SH: The part that is useable by Bibtex contains _no spaces_. Micha continues: especially since you need to expect spaces in windows (a lot of regular users in windows don't know how to move the home directory from C:\Documents and Settings\user\My Documents not to mention that its impossible with XP home edition, you need the professional for that. Why did you bring this up? It seems like an imaginary issue. The regular user installs the Miktex default to C:\texmf which has a C:\texmf\bibtex\bst sub-directory The default for custom bst files is C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst The default Working directory for LyX is C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents The default Temporary directory for LyX is C:\Documents and Settings\username\Local Settings\Temp\ This works just fine for the regular user. There is no need to move their home directory. Nor did I advocate that. I mentioned that Dan's solution seemed a bit like overkill. This problem has
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Martin Geisler wrote: [...] I guess that is where our differences lie -- you consider the C:\localtexmf directoy the only proper place for custom files, and indeed it would be good if everybody would just place their things there. But being able to have an entire document in one folder (placed wherever, even in paths with spaces) is also valuable. Or indispensable when you want to collaborate on such documents and need to send everything that is needed to compile it.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:52 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features. ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere. You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the spaces. I thought I was dropping a hint that there is a difference between the Linux and Windows file systems and the characters they allow. I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow. The fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows handles spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing something wrong, Nope, your logic fails. The way this works on Linux is much different than the workaround the LyX developers used. Not only that, it is nearly impossible for it to work the same way on Windows as it does on Linux. It would require changing TeX itself. Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054 When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You can use special characters that are typically not valid by escaping the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows. The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are not supported in Windows file or folder names: * Slash mark (/) Backslash (\) Quotation mark ( ) ^^ * Colon (:) * Asterisk (*) * Question mark (?) * Angle brackets ( ) * Pipe (|) Micha: everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows? Your logic implies that tex understands these escape sequences and ignores escaped spaces (although I don't escape space in linux). If tex doesn't use the file system to analyze the escape sequences then it is aware of escape sequences itself which would make them work in windows. If tex doesn't understand the escape sequences then it wouldn't help if you use them in the path also under linux. The problem with your logic is that you claim that tex uses spaces to delimit a string. But a space is a space is a space. If it can recognize that a space is part of the path and not a delimiter in linux (escaping or not) it should be able to do the same under windows. Either tex understands escape sequences (which includes escaping spaces) or it has a method of defining what a string is, including the spaces which is different on windows and linux, or it has different spaces for string delimiting and path spaces under linux. You are mixing up allowed characters in the path, escaping characters that would otherwise have another meaning and what consists of a string to be analyzed. You claim that tex uses space to delimit a string (and thus the path), how can it tell that on linux a space is a part of the path and on windows it doesn't understand that? That is ignoring the fact that you can change your character set under linux. Different allowed character sets (where both allow space by the way) to explain why there should be a problem doesn't do it. If escaping spaces is used it has to be internal. Micha: so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. SH: There may exist a workaround in Windows (temp
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Micha feigin wrote: Either tex understands escape sequences (which includes escaping spaces) or it has a method of defining what a string is, including the spaces which is different on windows and linux, or it has different spaces for string delimiting and path spaces under linux. Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. The fundamental problem here is that TeX has no support for spaces in file names itself. The problem can be worked around, and is, in higher level macro packages such as LaTeX's \includegraphics command. At the moment, BibTeX has no such work around. Our solution, in LyX, has been to copy the .bib file over to the temporary directory, mangling its name in the process to something BibTeX-friendly. We (I) chose not to do so with the .bst file because this file is conceptually part of the LaTeX distribution. It's used in identical fashion to all the .sty, .cls files that LaTeX (and hence TeX) use to typeset your document. It's proper location, therefore, is in a TeX directory hierarchy. I have stated publicly that I think that the current solution is correct and will not change it. Anyway, I've now retired from LyX development so my opinions are perhaps moot. Georg Baum has stated publicly in this thread that he is inclined to copy the .bst file over into the temporary directory too. If someone (Georg in this case) wants to do the work then who am I to stop him? In order to remind Georg about this problem in the future, I'd suggest that you file a bug on bugzilla and be done with it ;-) -- Angus
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:12 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Martin Geisler wrote: [...] I guess that is where our differences lie -- you consider the C:\localtexmf directoy the only proper place for custom files, and indeed it would be good if everybody would just place their things there. But being able to have an entire document in one folder (placed wherever, even in paths with spaces) is also valuable. Or indispensable when you want to collaborate on such documents and need to send everything that is needed to compile it. http://wiki.lyx.org/uploads/BibTeX/LyXBibTeXExample.tar.gz
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. I am amazed as well, in that many people even do not consider this as a bug. A bug report has been created (http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186) and accepted as NEW so we should just wait for someone (Andre? Georg?) to fix it. I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. With or without warning is the reason why I say this is not latex' bug since latex claims that it can *not* handle such situations and gives error messages. A user will at least know what has gone wrong if he uses latex directly. This is not the case for lyx. Although it would be nice to have a thorough solution like copying the .bst files as we have done for other formats, it will be perfectly fine to me if lyx let users know the problem in a proper way, for example, display bibtex error messages, disallow wrongful user input, or put a warning next to the browse button. Cheers, Bo
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2006 15:36 schrieb Angus Leeming: Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. I am amazed, too. The time you guys spent with discussing would probably have been enough to fix the bug. I have stated publicly that I think that the current solution is correct and will not change it. Anyway, I've now retired from LyX development so my opinions are perhaps moot. Georg Baum has stated publicly in this thread that he is inclined to copy the .bst file over into the temporary directory too. If someone (Georg in this case) wants to do the work then who am I to stop him? In general I agree with your opinion, but I also see the usefulness of having special .bst files that are only used by one document in the document directory. In order to remind Georg about this problem in the future, I'd suggest that you file a bug on bugzilla and be done with it ;-) I did that already. And I am surprised about this, too: Lots of discussions about this bug, but nobody felt the need to report it in bugzilla. Georg PS to Stephen: I don't read your messages anymore, because they are very difficult to decipher. It is often impossible to tell what comes from you and what is a citation. Please use one of the well known citation methods, I am sure that many people on this list would appreciate that.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org; LyX Devel lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). I think a less contrived and self-serving assessment is that a normal user is one who follows recommendations, and that makes him a normal user not a pro-user. What you describe as a pro-user, is really somebody who thought they were smart enough to omit reading the advice. http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/LyX/WindowsSetup LyX1.3.5 Install the programs above into folders that contain no spaces in the name. Eg. C:\LyX http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/Windows/LyX136 Although LyX swallows path and folder names with blanks (such as C:\Program Files\...) this is not necessarily true for the other programs, and it is recommended to install them in the default locations suggested by the programs, or in paths without blanks (such as C:\Programs\...), just to be on the safe side. Bo Peng continues: However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? SH: Most lyx users do not need to know latex that well, as you claim. All they need to do is follow and use the Miktex install defaults and they experience no problems because they do use Lyx easily. The evidence for this is that there were no complaints reported by regular users of this limitation in the more than six months that the official WinLyx 1.3.6 existed (and before that counting 1.3.5). So if fixes are prioritized by how many users the limitation impacts, it doesn't include regular users who just use defaults, nor users who can be bothered to read the LyX Wiki, but one/few powerusers who are personally inconvenienced while _actually using/pushing_ LyX. There have been remarks that the Windows port of LyX ought to observe basic windows guidelines. I think this is inaccurate, because it is too general. LyX, which inherently relies upon TeX, is not supposed to behave just like, or mirror MS Word functionality. Sure I think it would be nice if .bst files were fixed up. But the demand for this does not spring up from the regular user base. Bo: Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. With or without warning is the reason why I say this is not latex' bug since latex claims that it can *not* handle such situations and gives error messages. A user will at least know what has gone wrong if he uses latex directly. This is not the case for lyx. SH: Suppose this is considered a LyX bug rather than a Bibtex limitation that some Latex developer(s) should fix. The standard for how important it is to fix it still depends on how many users the problem affects. Your claim of regular users is not true. Bo: Although it would be nice to have a thorough solution like copying the .bst files as we have done for other formats, it will be perfectly fine to me if lyx let users know the problem in a proper way, for example, display bibtex error messages, disallow wrongful user input, or put a warning next to the browse button. Cheers, Bo SH: I am not a developer, but a user/tech who wants developer time fruitfully maximized because that ultimately benefits the regular user. So since you are clamoring for a fix, and you are a developer, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? I don't see that those people who argue theoretically on your side, rather than from their experience of actually experiencing a problem while using LyX in actual practice (e.g. Linux experts experimenting on their girlfriend's Windows installation of LyX) are people whose opinion matters in deciding the priority represented by LyX regular/normal user demand.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Georg Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Angus wrote: In order to remind Georg about this problem in the future, I'd suggest that you file a bug on bugzilla and be done with it ;-) I did that already. And I am surprised about this, too: Lots of discussions about this bug, but nobody felt the need to report it in bugzilla. Georg SH: Bo is the first reporter of the event under discussion. Perhaps it was not reported before because nobody experienced it before. That explains why this event was not listed as a bug on bugzilla. I've followed the user mailing list for months and seen no referent. Bo asked about this on December 30, 2005. Two days later, it was reproduced by Paul and later that day confirmed by Angus as a problem with bst files. That confirmation was on Jan 01, 2006 and the bug is shown as reported on Jan 03, 2006. So nobody includes people who thought this was a WONTFiX. AFAIK, there was only one nobody who thought this was bug and it should be fixed within that timeframe. I think the responsibility for reporting a bug belongs to somebody who does think some event is a bug and should be fixed. I think fixing a bug is a responsibility of a nobody who thinks of themself as a developer who has a priority bug to fix, and not to a user somebody who thinks developer time is better spent fixing problems with much higher profiles (report ratios). The last paragraph refers to Georg writing: I am amazed, too. The time you guys spent with discussing would probably have been enough to fix the bug. SH: Apparently, we grasp reality differently because I perceive a snide remark which exaggerated its factual basis, and skirted a true attribution of bugzilla responsibility in order to masquerade as an incredulous adult.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features. ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere. You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the spaces. I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow. The fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows handles spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing something wrong, esspecially since you need to expect spaces in windows (a lot of regular users in windows don't know how to move the home directory from C:\Documents and Settings\user\My Documents not to mention that its impossible with XP home edition, you need the professional for that. If the people can't come to LyX, bring LyX to the $People, Stephen +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:52 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features. ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere. You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the spaces. I thought I was dropping a hint that there is a difference between the Linux and Windows file systems and the characters they allow. I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow. The fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows handles spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing something wrong, Nope, your logic fails. The way this works on Linux is much different than the workaround the LyX developers used. Not only that, it is nearly impossible for it to work the same way on Windows as it does on Linux. It would require changing TeX itself. Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054 When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You can use special characters that are typically not valid by escaping the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows. The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are not supported in Windows file or folder names: * Slash mark (/) Backslash (\) Quotation mark ( ) ^^ * Colon (:) * Asterisk (*) * Question mark (?) * Angle brackets ( ) * Pipe (|) Micha: everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows? Micha: so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. SH: There may exist a workaround in Windows (temp) but that does not mean it works because of your logic of spaces working in Linux. 13 July 2005 Axel Rasche reported that spaces in the file path caused BibTeX to fail. The adopted solution copies the BibTeX data base to the temp directory, mangling its name in the process into something that's both recognizable to the user and useable by BibTeX. SH: The part that is useable by Bibtex contains _no spaces_. Micha continues: especially since you need to expect spaces in windows (a lot of regular users in windows don't know how to move the home directory from C:\Documents and Settings\user\My Documents not to mention that its impossible with XP home edition, you need the professional for that. Why did you bring this up? It seems like an imaginary issue. The regular user installs the Miktex default to C:\texmf which has a C:\texmf\bibtex\bst sub-directory The default for custom bst files is C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst The default Working directory for LyX is C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents The default Temporary directory for LyX is C:\Documents and Settings\username\Local Settings\Temp\ This works just fine for the regular user. There is no need to move their home directory. Nor did I advocate that. I mentioned that Dan's solution seemed a bit like overkill. This problem has nothing to do with regular user experience. The problem was demonstrated by a poweruser who decided to put his .bst file in a directory with spaces and then browse to it. The regular user just follows the Miktex recommended install procedure and doesn't have
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stephen Harris wrote: Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054 When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You can use special characters that are typically not valid by escaping the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows. This information not entirely correct and is a definite sign of people confusing how you work with files from a program (using OS functions like fopen()) and in the shell (writing mv foo.txt bar.txt for example). Filenames in Unix-like filesystems can consist of arbitrary bytes with just two exceptions: * The forward slash (/) since it denotes the directory hierachy. * The null byte 0x00. All other bytes are allowed and treated transparently by all filesystem functions. Try it, create a file named foonewlinebar like this: touch $(echo -e foo\\nbar) delete it again with rm $(echo -e foo\\nbar) :-) The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are not supported in Windows file or folder names: * Slash mark (/) Not supported in Unix either. See the Reserved Chars column in the table at the bottom of this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filename Micha: everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows? You cannot escape a space under Unix, there is simply no such concept on the filesystem level. In the *shell* there is naturally such a concept since it breaks on (white-)spaces, but that is something different and other programs should not deal with the spaces. [...] The default for custom bst files is C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst No, that is only for custom files which you want every other LaTeX project to use -- for a file which is custom-build to just a single document I will consider the directory with the document as the default. I guess that is where our differences lie -- you consider the C:\localtexmf directoy the only proper place for custom files, and indeed it would be good if everybody would just place their things there. But being able to have an entire document in one folder (placed wherever, even in paths with spaces) is also valuable. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgpKEJtRSvipm.pgp Description: PGP signature
[Fwd: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller]
Anyway, forget it, I'm eating my hat, it also doesn't work on linux. On the other hand, under linux everything is treated as a relative path so including a bib file works fine through lyx no matter where it is. This can be a partial work around also under windows. I still think that latex needs to be redesigned in this respect as paths with spaces are quite common nowadays (I see them also under linux now with all the gui file browsers) Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features. ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere. You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the spaces. I thought I was dropping a hint that there is a difference between the Linux and Windows file systems and the characters they allow. I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow. The fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows handles spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing something wrong, Nope, your logic fails. The way this works on Linux is much different than the workaround the LyX developers used. Not only that, it is nearly impossible for it to work the same way on Windows as it does on Linux. It would require changing TeX itself. Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054 When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You can use special characters that are typically not valid by escaping the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows. The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are not supported in Windows file or folder names: * Slash mark (/) Backslash (\) Quotation mark ( ) ^^ * Colon (:) * Asterisk (*) * Question mark (?) * Angle brackets ( ) * Pipe (|) Micha: everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows? Micha: so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. SH: There may exist a workaround in Windows (temp) but that does not mean it works because of your logic of spaces working in Linux. 13 July 2005 Axel Rasche reported that spaces in the file path caused BibTeX to fail. The adopted solution copies the BibTeX data base to the temp directory, mangling its name in the process into something that's both recognizable to the user and useable by BibTeX. SH: The part that is useable by Bibtex contains _no spaces_. Micha continues: especially since you need to expect spaces in windows (a lot of regular users in windows don't know how to move the home directory from C:\Documents and Settings\user\My Documents not to mention that its impossible with XP home edition, you need the professional for that. Why did you bring this up? It seems like an imaginary issue. The regular user installs the Miktex default to C:\texmf which has a C:\texmf\bibtex\bst sub-directory The default for custom bst files is C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst The default Working directory for LyX is C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents The default Temporary directory for LyX is C:\Documents and Settings\username\Local Settings\Temp\ This works just fine for the regular user. There is no need to move their home directory. Nor did I advocate that. I mentioned that Dan's solution seemed a bit like overkill. This problem has
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Martin Geisler wrote: [...] I guess that is where our differences lie -- you consider the C:\localtexmf directoy the only proper place for custom files, and indeed it would be good if everybody would just place their things there. But being able to have an entire document in one folder (placed wherever, even in paths with spaces) is also valuable. Or indispensable when you want to collaborate on such documents and need to send everything that is needed to compile it.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:52 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features. ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere. You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the spaces. I thought I was dropping a hint that there is a difference between the Linux and Windows file systems and the characters they allow. I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow. The fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows handles spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing something wrong, Nope, your logic fails. The way this works on Linux is much different than the workaround the LyX developers used. Not only that, it is nearly impossible for it to work the same way on Windows as it does on Linux. It would require changing TeX itself. Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054 When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You can use special characters that are typically not valid by escaping the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows. The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are not supported in Windows file or folder names: * Slash mark (/) Backslash (\) Quotation mark ( ) ^^ * Colon (:) * Asterisk (*) * Question mark (?) * Angle brackets ( ) * Pipe (|) Micha: everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows? Your logic implies that tex understands these escape sequences and ignores escaped spaces (although I don't escape space in linux). If tex doesn't use the file system to analyze the escape sequences then it is aware of escape sequences itself which would make them work in windows. If tex doesn't understand the escape sequences then it wouldn't help if you use them in the path also under linux. The problem with your logic is that you claim that tex uses spaces to delimit a string. But a space is a space is a space. If it can recognize that a space is part of the path and not a delimiter in linux (escaping or not) it should be able to do the same under windows. Either tex understands escape sequences (which includes escaping spaces) or it has a method of defining what a string is, including the spaces which is different on windows and linux, or it has different spaces for string delimiting and path spaces under linux. You are mixing up allowed characters in the path, escaping characters that would otherwise have another meaning and what consists of a string to be analyzed. You claim that tex uses space to delimit a string (and thus the path), how can it tell that on linux a space is a part of the path and on windows it doesn't understand that? That is ignoring the fact that you can change your character set under linux. Different allowed character sets (where both allow space by the way) to explain why there should be a problem doesn't do it. If escaping spaces is used it has to be internal. Micha: so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. SH: There may exist a workaround in Windows (temp
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Micha feigin wrote: Either tex understands escape sequences (which includes escaping spaces) or it has a method of defining what a string is, including the spaces which is different on windows and linux, or it has different spaces for string delimiting and path spaces under linux. Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. The fundamental problem here is that TeX has no support for spaces in file names itself. The problem can be worked around, and is, in higher level macro packages such as LaTeX's \includegraphics command. At the moment, BibTeX has no such work around. Our solution, in LyX, has been to copy the .bib file over to the temporary directory, mangling its name in the process to something BibTeX-friendly. We (I) chose not to do so with the .bst file because this file is conceptually part of the LaTeX distribution. It's used in identical fashion to all the .sty, .cls files that LaTeX (and hence TeX) use to typeset your document. It's proper location, therefore, is in a TeX directory hierarchy. I have stated publicly that I think that the current solution is correct and will not change it. Anyway, I've now retired from LyX development so my opinions are perhaps moot. Georg Baum has stated publicly in this thread that he is inclined to copy the .bst file over into the temporary directory too. If someone (Georg in this case) wants to do the work then who am I to stop him? In order to remind Georg about this problem in the future, I'd suggest that you file a bug on bugzilla and be done with it ;-) -- Angus
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:12 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Martin Geisler wrote: [...] I guess that is where our differences lie -- you consider the C:\localtexmf directoy the only proper place for custom files, and indeed it would be good if everybody would just place their things there. But being able to have an entire document in one folder (placed wherever, even in paths with spaces) is also valuable. Or indispensable when you want to collaborate on such documents and need to send everything that is needed to compile it. http://wiki.lyx.org/uploads/BibTeX/LyXBibTeXExample.tar.gz
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. I am amazed as well, in that many people even do not consider this as a bug. A bug report has been created (http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186) and accepted as NEW so we should just wait for someone (Andre? Georg?) to fix it. I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. With or without warning is the reason why I say this is not latex' bug since latex claims that it can *not* handle such situations and gives error messages. A user will at least know what has gone wrong if he uses latex directly. This is not the case for lyx. Although it would be nice to have a thorough solution like copying the .bst files as we have done for other formats, it will be perfectly fine to me if lyx let users know the problem in a proper way, for example, display bibtex error messages, disallow wrongful user input, or put a warning next to the browse button. Cheers, Bo
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2006 15:36 schrieb Angus Leeming: Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. I am amazed, too. The time you guys spent with discussing would probably have been enough to fix the bug. I have stated publicly that I think that the current solution is correct and will not change it. Anyway, I've now retired from LyX development so my opinions are perhaps moot. Georg Baum has stated publicly in this thread that he is inclined to copy the .bst file over into the temporary directory too. If someone (Georg in this case) wants to do the work then who am I to stop him? In general I agree with your opinion, but I also see the usefulness of having special .bst files that are only used by one document in the document directory. In order to remind Georg about this problem in the future, I'd suggest that you file a bug on bugzilla and be done with it ;-) I did that already. And I am surprised about this, too: Lots of discussions about this bug, but nobody felt the need to report it in bugzilla. Georg PS to Stephen: I don't read your messages anymore, because they are very difficult to decipher. It is often impossible to tell what comes from you and what is a citation. Please use one of the well known citation methods, I am sure that many people on this list would appreciate that.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org; LyX Devel lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). I think a less contrived and self-serving assessment is that a normal user is one who follows recommendations, and that makes him a normal user not a pro-user. What you describe as a pro-user, is really somebody who thought they were smart enough to omit reading the advice. http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/LyX/WindowsSetup LyX1.3.5 Install the programs above into folders that contain no spaces in the name. Eg. C:\LyX http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/Windows/LyX136 Although LyX swallows path and folder names with blanks (such as C:\Program Files\...) this is not necessarily true for the other programs, and it is recommended to install them in the default locations suggested by the programs, or in paths without blanks (such as C:\Programs\...), just to be on the safe side. Bo Peng continues: However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? SH: Most lyx users do not need to know latex that well, as you claim. All they need to do is follow and use the Miktex install defaults and they experience no problems because they do use Lyx easily. The evidence for this is that there were no complaints reported by regular users of this limitation in the more than six months that the official WinLyx 1.3.6 existed (and before that counting 1.3.5). So if fixes are prioritized by how many users the limitation impacts, it doesn't include regular users who just use defaults, nor users who can be bothered to read the LyX Wiki, but one/few powerusers who are personally inconvenienced while _actually using/pushing_ LyX. There have been remarks that the Windows port of LyX ought to observe basic windows guidelines. I think this is inaccurate, because it is too general. LyX, which inherently relies upon TeX, is not supposed to behave just like, or mirror MS Word functionality. Sure I think it would be nice if .bst files were fixed up. But the demand for this does not spring up from the regular user base. Bo: Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. With or without warning is the reason why I say this is not latex' bug since latex claims that it can *not* handle such situations and gives error messages. A user will at least know what has gone wrong if he uses latex directly. This is not the case for lyx. SH: Suppose this is considered a LyX bug rather than a Bibtex limitation that some Latex developer(s) should fix. The standard for how important it is to fix it still depends on how many users the problem affects. Your claim of regular users is not true. Bo: Although it would be nice to have a thorough solution like copying the .bst files as we have done for other formats, it will be perfectly fine to me if lyx let users know the problem in a proper way, for example, display bibtex error messages, disallow wrongful user input, or put a warning next to the browse button. Cheers, Bo SH: I am not a developer, but a user/tech who wants developer time fruitfully maximized because that ultimately benefits the regular user. So since you are clamoring for a fix, and you are a developer, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? I don't see that those people who argue theoretically on your side, rather than from their experience of actually experiencing a problem while using LyX in actual practice (e.g. Linux experts experimenting on their girlfriend's Windows installation of LyX) are people whose opinion matters in deciding the priority represented by LyX regular/normal user demand.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Georg Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Angus wrote: In order to remind Georg about this problem in the future, I'd suggest that you file a bug on bugzilla and be done with it ;-) I did that already. And I am surprised about this, too: Lots of discussions about this bug, but nobody felt the need to report it in bugzilla. Georg SH: Bo is the first reporter of the event under discussion. Perhaps it was not reported before because nobody experienced it before. That explains why this event was not listed as a bug on bugzilla. I've followed the user mailing list for months and seen no referent. Bo asked about this on December 30, 2005. Two days later, it was reproduced by Paul and later that day confirmed by Angus as a problem with bst files. That confirmation was on Jan 01, 2006 and the bug is shown as reported on Jan 03, 2006. So nobody includes people who thought this was a WONTFiX. AFAIK, there was only one nobody who thought this was bug and it should be fixed within that timeframe. I think the responsibility for reporting a bug belongs to somebody who does think some event is a bug and should be fixed. I think fixing a bug is a responsibility of a nobody who thinks of themself as a developer who has a priority bug to fix, and not to a user somebody who thinks developer time is better spent fixing problems with much higher profiles (report ratios). The last paragraph refers to Georg writing: I am amazed, too. The time you guys spent with discussing would probably have been enough to fix the bug. SH: Apparently, we grasp reality differently because I perceive a snide remark which exaggerated its factual basis, and skirted a true attribution of bugzilla responsibility in order to masquerade as an incredulous adult.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote: - Original Message - From: "Micha feigin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - "I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: "Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features." ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: "Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere." You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the spaces. I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow. The fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows handles spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing something wrong, esspecially since you need to expect spaces in windows (a lot of "regular" users in windows don't know how to move the home directory from C:\Documents and Settings\\My Documents not to mention that its impossible with XP home edition, you need the professional for that. If the people can't come to LyX, bring LyX to the $People, Stephen +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message -
From: "Micha feigin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote:
- Original Message - From: "Micha feigin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
[...]
David Carlisle
Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 -
"I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying
TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this
has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and
Micha feigin:
"Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since
everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides,
everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this
shouldn't.
Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path
both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not
the people to the features." ...
SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it
certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous
explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on
Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark:
"Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each
device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed.
Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on
all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix,
there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is
located under it somewhere."
You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive
letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the
spaces.
I thought I was dropping a hint that there is a difference between the
Linux and Windows file systems and the characters they allow.
I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow.
The >fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows
handles >spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing
something >wrong,
Nope, your logic fails. The way this works on Linux is much different
than the workaround the LyX developers used. Not only that, it is nearly
impossible for it to work the same way on Windows as it does on Linux.
It would require changing TeX itself.
Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054
"When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You
can use special characters that are typically not valid by "escaping"
the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with
a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows.
The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are
not supported in Windows file or folder names:
* Slash mark (/) Backslash (\) Quotation mark (" ")
^^
* Colon (:)
* Asterisk (*)
* Question mark (?)
* Angle brackets (< >)
* Pipe (|)
Micha: "everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all."
SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst
to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows?
Micha: "so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't."
SH: There may exist a workaround in Windows (temp) but that does
not mean it works because of your logic of spaces working in Linux.
13 July 2005
"Axel Rasche reported that spaces in the file path caused BibTeX
to fail. The adopted solution copies the BibTeX data base to the
temp directory, mangling its name in the process into something
that's both recognizable to the user and useable by BibTeX."
SH: The part that is useable by Bibtex contains _no spaces_.
Micha continues:
"especially since you need to expect spaces in windows (a lot of
>>"regular" users in windows don't know how to move the home directory
from >C:\Documents and Settings\\My Documents not to mention that
its impossible with XP home
edition, you need the professional for that."
Why did you bring this up? It seems like an imaginary issue.
The "regular" user installs the Miktex default to C:\texmf which
has a C:\texmf\bibtex\bst sub-directory
The default for custom bst files is C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst
The default Working directory for LyX is
C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents
The default Temporary directory for LyX is
C:\Documents and Settings\username\Local Settings\Temp\
This works just fine for the "regular" user. There is no
need to "move their home directory". Nor did I advocate that.
I mentioned that Dan's solution seemed a bit like overkill.
This problem has nothing
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
"Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> Stephen Harris wrote: > > Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054 > > "When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You > can use special characters that are typically not valid by > "escaping" the character (for example, by prefixing the special > character with a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping > procedure in Windows. This information not entirely correct and is a definite sign of people confusing how you work with files from a program (using OS functions like fopen()) and in the shell (writing "mv foo.txt bar.txt" for example). Filenames in Unix-like filesystems can consist of arbitrary bytes with just two exceptions: * The forward slash (/) since it denotes the directory hierachy. * The null byte 0x00. All other bytes are allowed and treated transparently by all filesystem functions. Try it, create a file named foobar like this: touch "$(echo -e foo\\nbar)" delete it again with rm "$(echo -e foo\\nbar)" :-) > The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are > not supported in Windows file or folder names: > > * Slash mark (/) Not supported in Unix either. See the "Reserved Chars" column in the table at the bottom of this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filename > Micha: "everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all." > > SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst to > escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows? You cannot "escape a space" under Unix, there is simply no such concept on the filesystem level. In the *shell* there is naturally such a concept since it breaks on (white-)spaces, but that is something different and other programs should not deal with the spaces. > [...] The default for custom bst files is C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst No, that is only for custom files which you want every other LaTeX project to use -- for a file which is custom-build to just a single document I will consider the directory with the document as the default. I guess that is where our differences lie -- you consider the C:\localtexmf directoy the only proper place for custom files, and indeed it would be good if everybody would just place their things there. But being able to have an entire document in one folder (placed wherever, even in paths with spaces) is also valuable. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgpKEJtRSvipm.pgp Description: PGP signature
[Fwd: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller]
Anyway, forget it, I'm eating my hat, it also doesn't work on linux. On the
other hand, under linux everything is treated as a relative path so including a
bib file works fine through lyx no matter where it is. This can be a partial
work around also under windows.
I still think that latex needs to be redesigned in this respect as paths with
spaces are quite common nowadays (I see them also under linux now with all the
gui file browsers)
Stephen Harris wrote:
- Original Message - From: "Micha feigin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
[...]
David Carlisle
Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 -
"I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying
TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this
has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and
Micha feigin:
"Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since
everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides,
everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this
shouldn't.
Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path
both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not
the people to the features." ...
SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it
certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous
explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on
Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark:
"Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each
device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed.
Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on
all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix,
there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is
located under it somewhere."
You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the drive
letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with regard to the
spaces.
I thought I was dropping a hint that there is a difference between the
Linux and Windows file systems and the characters they allow.
I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design flow.
The >fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that windows
handles >spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex are doing
something >wrong,
Nope, your logic fails. The way this works on Linux is much different
than the workaround the LyX developers used. Not only that, it is nearly
impossible for it to work the same way on Windows as it does on Linux.
It would require changing TeX itself.
Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054
"When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You
can use special characters that are typically not valid by "escaping"
the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with
a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows.
The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are
not supported in Windows file or folder names:
* Slash mark (/) Backslash (\) Quotation mark (" ")
^^
* Colon (:)
* Asterisk (*)
* Question mark (?)
* Angle brackets (< >)
* Pipe (|)
Micha: "everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all."
SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst
to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows?
Micha: "so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't."
SH: There may exist a workaround in Windows (temp) but that does
not mean it works because of your logic of spaces working in Linux.
13 July 2005
"Axel Rasche reported that spaces in the file path caused BibTeX
to fail. The adopted solution copies the BibTeX data base to the
temp directory, mangling its name in the process into something
that's both recognizable to the user and useable by BibTeX."
SH: The part that is useable by Bibtex contains _no spaces_.
Micha continues:
"especially since you need to expect spaces in windows (a lot of
>>"regular" users in windows don't know how to move the home directory
from >C:\Documents and Settings\\My Documents not to mention that
its impossible with XP home
edition, you need the professional for that."
Why did you bring this up? It seems like an imaginary issue.
The "regular" user installs the Miktex default to C:\texmf which
has a C:\texmf\bibtex\bst sub-directory
The default for custom bst files is C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst
The default Working directory for LyX is
C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents
The default Temporary directory for LyX is
C:\Documents and Settings\username\Local Setting
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Martin Geisler wrote: [...] I guess that is where our differences lie -- you consider the C:\localtexmf directoy the only proper place for custom files, and indeed it would be good if everybody would just place their things there. But being able to have an entire document in one folder (placed wherever, even in paths with spaces) is also valuable. Or indispensable when you want to collaborate on such documents and need to send everything that is needed to compile it.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote:
- Original Message - From: "Micha feigin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris wrote:
- Original Message - From: "Micha feigin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
[...]
David Carlisle
Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 -
"I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying
TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this
has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and
Micha feigin:
"Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since
everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides,
everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this
shouldn't.
Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path
both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and
not the people to the features." ...
SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it
certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous
explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on
Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark:
"Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each
device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed.
Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the
files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This
means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing
on the system is located under it somewhere."
You didn't say anything here. In windows you start the path with the
drive letter in linux its just / it doesn't change anything with
regard to the spaces.
I thought I was dropping a hint that there is a difference between the
Linux and Windows file systems and the characters they allow.
I am saying that it is not a feature but either a bug or a design
flow. The >fact that it works on linux and not on windows and that
windows handles >spaces elsewhere means that either bibtex or latex
are doing something >wrong,
Nope, your logic fails. The way this works on Linux is much different
than the workaround the LyX developers used. Not only that, it is nearly
impossible for it to work the same way on Windows as it does on Linux.
It would require changing TeX itself.
Supported Characters http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=324054
"When you use UNIX, you can use any character in a file name. You
can use special characters that are typically not valid by "escaping"
the character (for example, by prefixing the special character with
a backslash [\]); you cannot perform an escaping procedure in Windows.
The following characters are supported in UNIX file names, but are
not supported in Windows file or folder names:
* Slash mark (/) Backslash (\) Quotation mark (" ")
^^
* Colon (:)
* Asterisk (*)
* Question mark (?)
* Angle brackets (< >)
* Pipe (|)
Micha: "everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all."
SH: So if in Linux if one can use ~/My\ Bst\ Files/research.bst
to escape spaces, then how does one escape spaces in Windows?
Your logic implies that tex understands these escape sequences and ignores
escaped spaces (although I don't escape space in linux). If tex doesn't use the
file system to analyze the escape sequences then it is aware of escape sequences
itself which would make them work in windows.
If tex doesn't understand the escape sequences then it wouldn't help if you use
them in the path also under linux.
The problem with your logic is that you claim that tex uses spaces to delimit a
string. But a space is a space is a space. If it can recognize that a space is
part of the path and not a delimiter in linux (escaping or not) it should be
able to do the same under windows.
Either tex understands escape sequences (which includes escaping spaces) or it
has a method of defining what a string is, including the spaces which is
different on windows and linux, or it has different spaces for string delimiting
and path spaces under linux.
You are mixing up allowed characters in the path, escaping characters that would
otherwise have another meaning and what consists of a string to be analyzed. You
claim that tex uses space to delimit a string (and thus the path), how can it
tell that on linux a space is a part of the path and on windows it doesn't
understand that?
That is ignoring the fact that you can change your character set under linux.
Different allowed character sets (where both allow space by the way) to explain
why there should be a problem doesn't do it. I
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Micha feigin wrote: > Either tex understands escape sequences (which includes escaping spaces) > or it has a method of defining what a string is, including the spaces > which is different on windows and linux, or it has different spaces for > string delimiting and path spaces under linux. Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to play on your own again. The fundamental problem here is that TeX has no support for spaces in file names itself. The problem can be worked around, and is, in higher level macro packages such as LaTeX's \includegraphics command. At the moment, BibTeX has no such work around. Our solution, in LyX, has been to copy the .bib file over to the temporary directory, mangling its name in the process to something BibTeX-friendly. We (I) chose not to do so with the .bst file because this file is conceptually part of the LaTeX distribution. It's used in identical fashion to all the .sty, .cls files that LaTeX (and hence TeX) use to typeset your document. It's proper location, therefore, is in a TeX directory hierarchy. I have stated publicly that I think that the current solution is correct and will not change it. Anyway, I've now retired from LyX development so my opinions are perhaps moot. Georg Baum has stated publicly in this thread that he is inclined to copy the .bst file over into the temporary directory too. If someone (Georg in this case) wants to do the work then who am I to stop him? In order to remind Georg about this problem in the future, I'd suggest that you file a bug on bugzilla and be done with it ;-) -- Angus
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: "Micha feigin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:12 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Martin Geisler wrote: [...] I guess that is where our differences lie -- you consider the C:\localtexmf directoy the only proper place for custom files, and indeed it would be good if everybody would just place their things there. But being able to have an entire document in one folder (placed wherever, even in paths with spaces) is also valuable. Or indispensable when you want to collaborate on such documents and need to send everything that is needed to compile it. http://wiki.lyx.org/uploads/BibTeX/LyXBibTeXExample.tar.gz
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
> Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going > to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to > play on your own again. I am amazed as well, in that many people even do not consider this as a bug. A bug report has been created (http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186) and accepted as NEW so we should just wait for someone (Andre? Georg?) to fix it. I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. With or without warning is the reason why I say this is not latex' bug since latex claims that it can *not* handle such situations and gives error messages. A user will at least know what has gone wrong if he uses latex directly. This is not the case for lyx. Although it would be nice to have a thorough solution like copying the .bst files as we have done for other formats, it will be perfectly fine to me if lyx let users know the problem in a proper way, for example, display bibtex error messages, disallow wrongful user input, or put a warning next to the browse button. Cheers, Bo
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2006 15:36 schrieb Angus Leeming: > Guys, I'm amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm going > to pop my head in at the door one final time and will then leave you to > play on your own again. I am amazed, too. The time you guys spent with discussing would probably have been enough to fix the bug. > I have stated publicly that I think that the current solution is correct > and will not change it. Anyway, I've now retired from LyX development so > my opinions are perhaps moot. Georg Baum has stated publicly in this > thread that he is inclined to copy the .bst file over into the temporary > directory too. If someone (Georg in this case) wants to do the work then > who am I to stop him? In general I agree with your opinion, but I also see the usefulness of having special .bst files that are only used by one document in the document directory. > In order to remind Georg about this problem in the future, I'd suggest that > you file a bug on bugzilla and be done with it ;-) I did that already. And I am surprised about this, too: Lots of discussions about this bug, but nobody felt the need to report it in bugzilla. Georg PS to Stephen: I don't read your messages anymore, because they are very difficult to decipher. It is often impossible to tell what comes from you and what is a citation. Please use one of the well known citation methods, I am sure that many people on this list would appreciate that.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: "Bo Peng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org>; "LyX Devel" <lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller I would also like to leave this thread with some final remarks. The root of this problem is of course from latex/bibtex and if a normal user really knows latex, has read all the documentations (lyx and latex), he should not put a .bst file under a path with spaces (and be considered as pro-user :-). I think a less contrived and self-serving assessment is that a normal user is one who follows recommendations, and that makes him a normal user not a pro-user. What you describe as a pro-user, is really somebody who thought they were smart enough to omit reading the advice. http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/LyX/WindowsSetup LyX1.3.5 "Install the programs above into folders that contain no spaces in the name. Eg. C:\LyX" http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/Windows/LyX136 "Although LyX swallows path and folder names with blanks (such as C:\Program Files\...) this is not necessarily true for the other programs, and it is recommended to install them in the default locations suggested by the programs, or in paths without blanks (such as C:\Programs\...), just to be on the safe side." Bo Peng continues: However, most lyx users do *not* know latex that well and the goal of lyx is exactly to provide a user-friendly GUI to latex to allow such users to use latex easily. We have successfully circumstanced similar problems with .lyx, .bib, .eps etc, why not .bst files? SH: Most lyx users do not need to know latex that well, as you claim. All they need to do is follow and use the Miktex install defaults and they experience no problems because they do use Lyx easily. The evidence for this is that there were no complaints reported by "regular" users of this "limitation" in the more than six months that the official WinLyx 1.3.6 existed (and before that counting 1.3.5). So if fixes are prioritized by how many users the limitation impacts, it doesn't include regular users who just use defaults, nor users who can be bothered to read the LyX Wiki, but one/few powerusers who are personally inconvenienced while _actually using/pushing_ LyX. There have been remarks that the Windows port of LyX ought to observe "basic windows guidelines". I think this is inaccurate, because it is too general. LyX, which inherently relies upon TeX, is not supposed to behave just like, or mirror MS Word functionality. Sure I think it would be nice if .bst files were fixed up. But the demand for this does not spring up from the "regular" user base. Bo: Regarding whether or not this is a lyx bug, I would definitely say yes in recognition of the fact that lyx allows certain user input and produces defective output without warning. With or without warning is the reason why I say this is not latex' bug since latex claims that it can *not* handle such situations and gives error messages. A user will at least know what has gone wrong if he uses latex directly. This is not the case for lyx. SH: Suppose this is considered a LyX bug rather than a Bibtex limitation that some Latex developer(s) should fix. The standard for how important it is to fix it still depends on how many users the problem affects. Your claim of "regular" users is not true. Bo: Although it would be nice to have a thorough solution like copying the .bst files as we have done for other formats, it will be perfectly fine to me if lyx let users know the problem in a proper way, for example, display bibtex error messages, disallow wrongful user input, or put a warning next to the browse button. Cheers, Bo SH: I am not a developer, but a user/tech who wants developer time fruitfully maximized because that ultimately benefits the regular user. So since you are clamoring for a fix, and you are a developer, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? I don't see that those people who argue theoretically on your side, rather than from their experience of actually experiencing a problem while using LyX in actual practice (e.g. Linux "experts" experimenting on their girlfriend's Windows installation of LyX) are people whose opinion matters in deciding the priority represented by LyX regular/normal user demand.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: "Georg Baum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Angus wrote: In order to remind Georg about this problem in the future, I'd suggest that you file a bug on bugzilla and be done with it ;-) I did that already. And I am surprised about this, too: Lots of discussions about this bug, but nobody felt the need to report it in bugzilla. Georg SH: Bo is the first reporter of the event under discussion. Perhaps it was not reported before because nobody experienced it before. That explains why this event was not listed as a bug on bugzilla. I've followed the user mailing list for months and seen no referent. Bo asked about this on December 30, 2005. Two days later, it was reproduced by Paul and later that day confirmed by Angus as a problem with bst files. That confirmation was on Jan 01, 2006 and the "bug" is shown as reported on Jan 03, 2006. So "nobody" includes people who thought this was a WONTFiX. AFAIK, there was only one "nobody" who thought this was bug and it should be fixed within that timeframe. I think the responsibility for reporting a bug belongs to somebody who does think some event is a bug and should be fixed. I think fixing a bug is a responsibility of a nobody who thinks of themself as a developer who has a priority bug to fix, and not to a user somebody who thinks developer time is better spent fixing problems with much higher profiles (report ratios). The last paragraph refers to Georg writing: I am amazed, too. The time you guys spent with discussing would probably have been enough to fix the bug. SH: Apparently, we grasp reality differently because I perceive a snide remark which exaggerated its factual basis, and skirted a true attribution of bugzilla responsibility in order to masquerade as an incredulous adult.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Georg Baum writes: Martin Geisler wrote: So please don't dismiss this as a WONTFIX bug... lots of people wont have a Linux-savy boyfriend to help them out with these things :-) Again: The problem is with bibtex, not with LyX. I'm sorry, I didn't make that clear -- I know that this discussion might belong better to a MikTex mailinglist but I just wanted to share my experience of using LyX with BibTeX under Windows. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgp7T1L9b7dfk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Helge Hafting [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Martin Geisler wrote: Do you really mean that Microsoft decided on a default install path with spaces just to annoy all the future Unix-centric programs being ported to Windows? That is hard to know - I guess they simply see this as a 'bonus', they probably weren't smart enough to pull this one of deliberately. :-/ Hehe :-) Sure - a space path is normal on windows, and LyX tries to cope with those too. I think LyX do this quite well, but LyX does not work alone. It depend on many other programs to do its work - most notably latex. [...] You're of course completely right -- I didn't write my post carefully enough. What I wanted to argue against was the idea that just because there is an obvious work-around for the case with spaces in pathnames, it is not okay for BibTeX/LaTeX/whoever to rely on it when running under Windows. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgpP0YfjChs4a.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Georg Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Cc: lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 11:50 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Martin Geisler wrote: So please don't dismiss this as a WONTFIX bug... lots of people wont have a Linux-savy boyfriend to help them out with these things :-) Again: The problem is with bibtex, not with LyX. We can work around it in LyX (and I'll do so probably sometimes), see http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186 This is a BibTeX limitation. The solution is to copy the .bst files to the temp dir before running LaTeX, as is done for .bib files, graphics etc. Meanwhile you have to live with the limitations and organize your .bst files like Herbert suggested. Georg The documentation about this on the LyX Wiki is not nearly as pointed, as for instance, the instruction that Aspell is a special case and one is required to install Aspell to C:\Aspell I once tried to install flpsed, a ghostscript-like annotator ported to Windows in place of gsview. It failed until I read Dan Luecking's advice below and I changed my temp dir under LyX preferences from the default to C:\LyX\Resources\lyx\temp (and also work). It was a path with spaces problem which wasn't related to LaTex. Dan's advice may be a bit of overkill but I thought to include it so that it enters LyX archives for possible future reference. Dan Luecking wrote: Install TeX under C:\TeX instead of C:\Program Files. For each user, create a TEMP environmental variable pointing to a directory without spaces in its name. For good measure, give each user a working directory without spaces in the pathname and create the variable HOME to point to it. Finally, when a program shortcut is added, configure it to start in the user's home directory. Having done all this since I started working with windows, I have almost never had a program fail due to failure to find its files. Regards, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Helge Hafting [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Geisler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:07 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller It is so much easier if these bugs are fixed in the proper place - fixing the problem in latex is better than adding a workaround in lyx, less code and the fix will benefit non-lyx latex users too. There are mailing lists for latex (and various latex distributions) too, try those. Helge Hafting I was browsing comp.text.tex and somebody reported a path with spaces bug regarding \includegraphics, I think it was. An expert replied that this was not really a bug, but a TeX feature! :-) I also noticed at miktex.org that the discussion of the 2.5.1 Beta still had a mention of the path with spaces problem. I guess it is time to let sleeping dogs lay and go to bed :-) Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:37:50 -0800 Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:49 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller My opinion is that if a file is allowed to 'browse in', it should work. Otherwise, it is a bug. A normal user would not care if it is latex' or lyx' or window', it is simply a bug. A lazy fix would give out a warning when a bst file with space is browsed in (since lyx know it will not work), and a better fix is handling .bst file the same way as the figures. If I understand this correctly, you have a bib file that you included from the bibtex browse option and it is sitting in a path with spaces, right? or did you put it in the bibtex directory under texmf and you want it to be found automatically? Assuming the first one, I tried under linux to move an existing document to a directory with spaces and then created another directory with spaces under it and put the bib file in that. I then browsed to it and included it and it works fine (under linux, didn't try windows yet). If that is the case (and I will try windows later) then it most certainly is a bug. If you put it into the bib directory under the texmf directory which contains spaces in its path then it is a problem with the miktex installation and not lyx. Again, if it is in the texmf tree which is installed in a directory with spaces its the problem of whomever installed it and didn't follow the instructions. If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. Bo The browse function works as designed if you browse to a directory that adheres to the Miktex installation policy. It is not a bug if you circumvent a function that works correctly with the default bst directory install location. Anybody who changes parameters of a default installation is always responsible for problems arising from that change. In order to qualify as a bug, you need to claim that LyX should anticipate that a user will avoid installing bst files to the default folder, the only type (without spaces) of folder that works, but instead the user installs to a folder that won't work. Additionally, the LyX documentation should check for this and create a report for the user about what is essentially a Miktex gotcha. IMO, that is way too much to expect from online Lyx documentation, it falls short of being a bug. OTOH, I don't think you made a dumb mistake. I do doubt that it is a problem that a normal user will experience. Why is your report just now bringing up this issue, why hasn't there been a report about this from a normal user? Probably because the normal user doesn't encounter or expose this browse function. They probably use the ordinary procedures. That addresses the priority and depth of a solution. Angus says fixing this is fragile, difficult so time-consuming. It would fix a rarely experienced problem which has a great alternate solution. Using a directory without spaces is a very standard workaround. Windows uses double quotes ( ) to surround a path with spaces, and I think that should have a higher priority than: rewriting the LyX online doc plus a method to check the current directory for spaces and issue a warning to the user. I think writing an entry under WinLyX Tips which makes people aware of a potential problem is sufficient for a rarely encountered sticking point. Unless you think this is a more common error for normal users and nobody has bothered to report it in the past. I think it will be years before LyX developers have nothing better to do than to fix a Miktex/TeX limitation which is either not considered a bug, is a WONTFIX, or maybe can't be fixed. http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/support/tex4ht.html 3.1 MiKTeX The approved way to use TeX4ht is via a series of batch files. Therefore, it is important that you install MiKTeX to a folder whose name (and path) does not include a space. The default location, c:\texmf, is perfect. If you really don't want MiKTeX in c:\texmf, you should place it in some subdirectory whose name does not include spaces, like c:\ProgramFiles (note: no space here) or c:\DosPrograms. You could also place GhostScript and ImageMagick in that folder. Regards, Stephen +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. This is the case I reported, and I think lyx should do something about it. Actually, a label above the browse button like File with spaces in its path may not work should suffice. People tend to think this is a latex feature/bug, not lyx'. However, if I use latex directly, I will get a bunch of error messages like File c:\my and documents\ does not exist, while in the case of lyx, I get no warning and incomplete output. Bo
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:16:13 +0200 Micha Feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:37:50 -0800 Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:49 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller My opinion is that if a file is allowed to 'browse in', it should work. Otherwise, it is a bug. A normal user would not care if it is latex' or lyx' or window', it is simply a bug. A lazy fix would give out a warning when a bst file with space is browsed in (since lyx know it will not work), and a better fix is handling .bst file the same way as the figures. If I understand this correctly, you have a bib file that you included from the bibtex browse option and it is sitting in a path with spaces, right? or did you put it in the bibtex directory under texmf and you want it to be found automatically? Assuming the first one, I tried under linux to move an existing document to a directory with spaces and then created another directory with spaces under it and put the bib file in that. I then browsed to it and included it and it works fine (under linux, didn't try windows yet). If that is the case (and I will try windows later) then it most certainly is a bug. If you put it into the bib directory under the texmf directory which contains spaces in its path then it is a problem with the miktex installation and not lyx. Again, if it is in the texmf tree which is installed in a directory with spaces its the problem of whomever installed it and didn't follow the instructions. If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a subdirectory with spaces). Bo The browse function works as designed if you browse to a directory that adheres to the Miktex installation policy. It is not a bug if you circumvent a function that works correctly with the default bst directory install location. Anybody who changes parameters of a default installation is always responsible for problems arising from that change. In order to qualify as a bug, you need to claim that LyX should anticipate that a user will avoid installing bst files to the default folder, the only type (without spaces) of folder that works, but instead the user installs to a folder that won't work. Additionally, the LyX documentation should check for this and create a report for the user about what is essentially a Miktex gotcha. IMO, that is way too much to expect from online Lyx documentation, it falls short of being a bug. OTOH, I don't think you made a dumb mistake. I do doubt that it is a problem that a normal user will experience. Why is your report just now bringing up this issue, why hasn't there been a report about this from a normal user? Probably because the normal user doesn't encounter or expose this browse function. They probably use the ordinary procedures. That addresses the priority and depth of a solution. Angus says fixing this is fragile, difficult so time-consuming. It would fix a rarely experienced problem which has a great alternate solution. Using a directory without spaces is a very standard workaround. Windows uses double quotes ( ) to surround a path with spaces, and I think that should have a higher priority than: rewriting the LyX online doc plus a method to check the current directory for spaces and issue a warning to the user. I think writing an entry under WinLyX Tips which makes people aware of a potential problem is sufficient for a rarely encountered sticking point. Unless you think this is a more common error for normal users and nobody has bothered to report it in the past. I think it will be years before LyX developers have nothing better to do than to fix a Miktex/TeX limitation which is either not considered a bug, is a WONTFIX, or maybe can't be fixed. http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/support/tex4ht.html 3.1 MiKTeX The approved way to use TeX4ht is via a series of batch files. Therefore, it is important that you install MiKTeX to a folder whose name (and path) does not include a space. The default location, c:\texmf, is perfect. If you really don't want MiKTeX in c:\texmf, you should place it in some subdirectory whose name does not include spaces, like c:\ProgramFiles (note: no space here) or c:\DosPrograms. You could also place GhostScript and ImageMagick in that folder. Regards, Stephen +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Micha Feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a subdirectory with spaces). I believe the problem is the .bst file, I had the problem when I tried to use a home-made .bst file which I had placed in the same directory as my LyX file. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgp56oUjw3nWx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:44:01 -0600 Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. This is the case I reported, and I think lyx should do something about it. Actually, a label above the browse button like File with spaces in its path may not work should suffice. People tend to think this is a latex feature/bug, not lyx'. However, if I use latex directly, I will get a bunch of error messages like File c:\my and documents\ does not exist, while in the case of lyx, I get no warning and incomplete output. I did some more testing. If I use a relative path (with spaces) instead of an absolute one for the bibtex file, then compiling through lyx works fine (I am guessing lyx moves this file to the temp directory to overcome the relative path). If I try to export the file to latex I get a popup window that warns me that the path contains spaces and bibtex won't be able to find it (but it does export). An absolute path with spaces to the bib file causes an empty bibliography since bibtex can't find the file. Everything works fine under linux no matter what I do. I guess that a partial solution for windows can not to check whether the path is relative or absolute and always copy the bib file to the temp directory (assuming that's what is done) thus there won't be any spaces in the relative path to the bib file (assuming that bibtex can work with paths with spaces as long as it doesn't know it, i.e the file itself is in a path with spaces). If bibtex still has a problem you can try recommending setting up a temp directory with no spaces (possibly allowing a special temp directory only for lyx, different then the global one by some means). Another solution that may work is to use old style paths so that they won't have spaces (don't know if that is possible, I know that the command prompt accepts it but if the code does). Of course, the best solution is to just fix bibtex (like I said, on linux it works fine so there is not need to blabber about it being a feature of bibtex). Bo +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:57:31 +0100 Martin Geisler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Micha Feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a subdirectory with spaces). I believe the problem is the .bst file, I had the problem when I tried to use a home-made .bst file which I had placed in the same directory as my LyX file. No, I found out the reason was that it was addressed using a relative path which apparently works fine vs. an absolute path which fails (I am guessing that lyx copies the bib file to the temp directory when an absolute path is involved). -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Micha Feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:59 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:16:13 +0200 Micha Feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:37:50 -0800 Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, if it is in the texmf tree which is installed in a directory with spaces its the problem of whomever installed it and didn't follow the instructions. If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a subdirectory with spaces). Did your test include a .bst file which is what Bo brought up? http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186 Jan 03, 2006 This is a BibTeX limitation. The solution is to copy the .bst files to the temp dir before running LaTeX, as is done for .bib files, graphics etc. SH: This refers to an earlier solution: http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/Windows/LyX136pre 13 July 2005 Axel Rasche reported that spaces in the file path caused BibTeX to fail. The adopted solution copies the BibTeX data base to the temp directory, mangling its name in the process into something that's both recognizable to the user and useable by BibTeX. SH: Why is this indirect fix used instead of a more direct method? It has to do with LaTex being a macro package for the underlying TeX engine which is designed with the following behavior: David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and \input \read and other TeX primitives take a space to terminate the filename. \input this file will input a file called this (or try to) and typeset file, ... SH: So the recommended C:\texmf\bibtex\bst or, for custom files, C:\localtex\bibtex\bst works because the TeX engine does not encounter a space while traversing to the .bst file. So I think C:\MyDocs\foo.bst would work, but C:\My Docs\foo.bst would not because TeX doesn't find anything under C:\My At least this is my understanding. Browsing to a .bst file in C:\Mydocs ought to work. But if the user doesn't read the documentation and places the .bst file in C:\My docs, then browsing there won't work. If this freedom to misuse an option is considered a bug, then it means LyX is responsible for compensating for the user's failure to read the documentation in the first place, and so LyX takes the place of that documentation with a specific error message. If a user doesn't install Aspell (as per documentation) in C:\Aspell, then the spellchecker option is still active and if a user clicks on it, there isn't a specific error message generated: Aspell needs to be installed to C:\Aspell To be consistent, that would need to be considered a LyX bug also. I think the freedom to misuse an option is not a bug in a program. I do not think the Windows policy of exercising parental controls should be (im)ported as a basic LyX guideline and the failure to do so is a bug. Maybe I need an attitude adjustment, :-) Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features. ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere. If the people can't come to LyX, bring LyX to the $People, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Georg Baum writes: Martin Geisler wrote: So please don't dismiss this as a WONTFIX bug... lots of people wont have a Linux-savy boyfriend to help them out with these things :-) Again: The problem is with bibtex, not with LyX. I'm sorry, I didn't make that clear -- I know that this discussion might belong better to a MikTex mailinglist but I just wanted to share my experience of using LyX with BibTeX under Windows. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgp7T1L9b7dfk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Helge Hafting [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Martin Geisler wrote: Do you really mean that Microsoft decided on a default install path with spaces just to annoy all the future Unix-centric programs being ported to Windows? That is hard to know - I guess they simply see this as a 'bonus', they probably weren't smart enough to pull this one of deliberately. :-/ Hehe :-) Sure - a space path is normal on windows, and LyX tries to cope with those too. I think LyX do this quite well, but LyX does not work alone. It depend on many other programs to do its work - most notably latex. [...] You're of course completely right -- I didn't write my post carefully enough. What I wanted to argue against was the idea that just because there is an obvious work-around for the case with spaces in pathnames, it is not okay for BibTeX/LaTeX/whoever to rely on it when running under Windows. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgpP0YfjChs4a.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Georg Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Cc: lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 11:50 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Martin Geisler wrote: So please don't dismiss this as a WONTFIX bug... lots of people wont have a Linux-savy boyfriend to help them out with these things :-) Again: The problem is with bibtex, not with LyX. We can work around it in LyX (and I'll do so probably sometimes), see http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186 This is a BibTeX limitation. The solution is to copy the .bst files to the temp dir before running LaTeX, as is done for .bib files, graphics etc. Meanwhile you have to live with the limitations and organize your .bst files like Herbert suggested. Georg The documentation about this on the LyX Wiki is not nearly as pointed, as for instance, the instruction that Aspell is a special case and one is required to install Aspell to C:\Aspell I once tried to install flpsed, a ghostscript-like annotator ported to Windows in place of gsview. It failed until I read Dan Luecking's advice below and I changed my temp dir under LyX preferences from the default to C:\LyX\Resources\lyx\temp (and also work). It was a path with spaces problem which wasn't related to LaTex. Dan's advice may be a bit of overkill but I thought to include it so that it enters LyX archives for possible future reference. Dan Luecking wrote: Install TeX under C:\TeX instead of C:\Program Files. For each user, create a TEMP environmental variable pointing to a directory without spaces in its name. For good measure, give each user a working directory without spaces in the pathname and create the variable HOME to point to it. Finally, when a program shortcut is added, configure it to start in the user's home directory. Having done all this since I started working with windows, I have almost never had a program fail due to failure to find its files. Regards, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Helge Hafting [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Geisler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:07 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller It is so much easier if these bugs are fixed in the proper place - fixing the problem in latex is better than adding a workaround in lyx, less code and the fix will benefit non-lyx latex users too. There are mailing lists for latex (and various latex distributions) too, try those. Helge Hafting I was browsing comp.text.tex and somebody reported a path with spaces bug regarding \includegraphics, I think it was. An expert replied that this was not really a bug, but a TeX feature! :-) I also noticed at miktex.org that the discussion of the 2.5.1 Beta still had a mention of the path with spaces problem. I guess it is time to let sleeping dogs lay and go to bed :-) Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:37:50 -0800 Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:49 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller My opinion is that if a file is allowed to 'browse in', it should work. Otherwise, it is a bug. A normal user would not care if it is latex' or lyx' or window', it is simply a bug. A lazy fix would give out a warning when a bst file with space is browsed in (since lyx know it will not work), and a better fix is handling .bst file the same way as the figures. If I understand this correctly, you have a bib file that you included from the bibtex browse option and it is sitting in a path with spaces, right? or did you put it in the bibtex directory under texmf and you want it to be found automatically? Assuming the first one, I tried under linux to move an existing document to a directory with spaces and then created another directory with spaces under it and put the bib file in that. I then browsed to it and included it and it works fine (under linux, didn't try windows yet). If that is the case (and I will try windows later) then it most certainly is a bug. If you put it into the bib directory under the texmf directory which contains spaces in its path then it is a problem with the miktex installation and not lyx. Again, if it is in the texmf tree which is installed in a directory with spaces its the problem of whomever installed it and didn't follow the instructions. If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. Bo The browse function works as designed if you browse to a directory that adheres to the Miktex installation policy. It is not a bug if you circumvent a function that works correctly with the default bst directory install location. Anybody who changes parameters of a default installation is always responsible for problems arising from that change. In order to qualify as a bug, you need to claim that LyX should anticipate that a user will avoid installing bst files to the default folder, the only type (without spaces) of folder that works, but instead the user installs to a folder that won't work. Additionally, the LyX documentation should check for this and create a report for the user about what is essentially a Miktex gotcha. IMO, that is way too much to expect from online Lyx documentation, it falls short of being a bug. OTOH, I don't think you made a dumb mistake. I do doubt that it is a problem that a normal user will experience. Why is your report just now bringing up this issue, why hasn't there been a report about this from a normal user? Probably because the normal user doesn't encounter or expose this browse function. They probably use the ordinary procedures. That addresses the priority and depth of a solution. Angus says fixing this is fragile, difficult so time-consuming. It would fix a rarely experienced problem which has a great alternate solution. Using a directory without spaces is a very standard workaround. Windows uses double quotes ( ) to surround a path with spaces, and I think that should have a higher priority than: rewriting the LyX online doc plus a method to check the current directory for spaces and issue a warning to the user. I think writing an entry under WinLyX Tips which makes people aware of a potential problem is sufficient for a rarely encountered sticking point. Unless you think this is a more common error for normal users and nobody has bothered to report it in the past. I think it will be years before LyX developers have nothing better to do than to fix a Miktex/TeX limitation which is either not considered a bug, is a WONTFIX, or maybe can't be fixed. http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/support/tex4ht.html 3.1 MiKTeX The approved way to use TeX4ht is via a series of batch files. Therefore, it is important that you install MiKTeX to a folder whose name (and path) does not include a space. The default location, c:\texmf, is perfect. If you really don't want MiKTeX in c:\texmf, you should place it in some subdirectory whose name does not include spaces, like c:\ProgramFiles (note: no space here) or c:\DosPrograms. You could also place GhostScript and ImageMagick in that folder. Regards, Stephen +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. This is the case I reported, and I think lyx should do something about it. Actually, a label above the browse button like File with spaces in its path may not work should suffice. People tend to think this is a latex feature/bug, not lyx'. However, if I use latex directly, I will get a bunch of error messages like File c:\my and documents\ does not exist, while in the case of lyx, I get no warning and incomplete output. Bo
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:16:13 +0200 Micha Feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:37:50 -0800 Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:49 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller My opinion is that if a file is allowed to 'browse in', it should work. Otherwise, it is a bug. A normal user would not care if it is latex' or lyx' or window', it is simply a bug. A lazy fix would give out a warning when a bst file with space is browsed in (since lyx know it will not work), and a better fix is handling .bst file the same way as the figures. If I understand this correctly, you have a bib file that you included from the bibtex browse option and it is sitting in a path with spaces, right? or did you put it in the bibtex directory under texmf and you want it to be found automatically? Assuming the first one, I tried under linux to move an existing document to a directory with spaces and then created another directory with spaces under it and put the bib file in that. I then browsed to it and included it and it works fine (under linux, didn't try windows yet). If that is the case (and I will try windows later) then it most certainly is a bug. If you put it into the bib directory under the texmf directory which contains spaces in its path then it is a problem with the miktex installation and not lyx. Again, if it is in the texmf tree which is installed in a directory with spaces its the problem of whomever installed it and didn't follow the instructions. If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a subdirectory with spaces). Bo The browse function works as designed if you browse to a directory that adheres to the Miktex installation policy. It is not a bug if you circumvent a function that works correctly with the default bst directory install location. Anybody who changes parameters of a default installation is always responsible for problems arising from that change. In order to qualify as a bug, you need to claim that LyX should anticipate that a user will avoid installing bst files to the default folder, the only type (without spaces) of folder that works, but instead the user installs to a folder that won't work. Additionally, the LyX documentation should check for this and create a report for the user about what is essentially a Miktex gotcha. IMO, that is way too much to expect from online Lyx documentation, it falls short of being a bug. OTOH, I don't think you made a dumb mistake. I do doubt that it is a problem that a normal user will experience. Why is your report just now bringing up this issue, why hasn't there been a report about this from a normal user? Probably because the normal user doesn't encounter or expose this browse function. They probably use the ordinary procedures. That addresses the priority and depth of a solution. Angus says fixing this is fragile, difficult so time-consuming. It would fix a rarely experienced problem which has a great alternate solution. Using a directory without spaces is a very standard workaround. Windows uses double quotes ( ) to surround a path with spaces, and I think that should have a higher priority than: rewriting the LyX online doc plus a method to check the current directory for spaces and issue a warning to the user. I think writing an entry under WinLyX Tips which makes people aware of a potential problem is sufficient for a rarely encountered sticking point. Unless you think this is a more common error for normal users and nobody has bothered to report it in the past. I think it will be years before LyX developers have nothing better to do than to fix a Miktex/TeX limitation which is either not considered a bug, is a WONTFIX, or maybe can't be fixed. http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/support/tex4ht.html 3.1 MiKTeX The approved way to use TeX4ht is via a series of batch files. Therefore, it is important that you install MiKTeX to a folder whose name (and path) does not include a space. The default location, c:\texmf, is perfect. If you really don't want MiKTeX in c:\texmf, you should place it in some subdirectory whose name does not include spaces, like c:\ProgramFiles (note: no space here) or c:\DosPrograms. You could also place GhostScript and ImageMagick in that folder. Regards, Stephen +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Micha Feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a subdirectory with spaces). I believe the problem is the .bst file, I had the problem when I tried to use a home-made .bst file which I had placed in the same directory as my LyX file. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgp56oUjw3nWx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:44:01 -0600 Bo Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. This is the case I reported, and I think lyx should do something about it. Actually, a label above the browse button like File with spaces in its path may not work should suffice. People tend to think this is a latex feature/bug, not lyx'. However, if I use latex directly, I will get a bunch of error messages like File c:\my and documents\ does not exist, while in the case of lyx, I get no warning and incomplete output. I did some more testing. If I use a relative path (with spaces) instead of an absolute one for the bibtex file, then compiling through lyx works fine (I am guessing lyx moves this file to the temp directory to overcome the relative path). If I try to export the file to latex I get a popup window that warns me that the path contains spaces and bibtex won't be able to find it (but it does export). An absolute path with spaces to the bib file causes an empty bibliography since bibtex can't find the file. Everything works fine under linux no matter what I do. I guess that a partial solution for windows can not to check whether the path is relative or absolute and always copy the bib file to the temp directory (assuming that's what is done) thus there won't be any spaces in the relative path to the bib file (assuming that bibtex can work with paths with spaces as long as it doesn't know it, i.e the file itself is in a path with spaces). If bibtex still has a problem you can try recommending setting up a temp directory with no spaces (possibly allowing a special temp directory only for lyx, different then the global one by some means). Another solution that may work is to use old style paths so that they won't have spaces (don't know if that is possible, I know that the command prompt accepts it but if the code does). Of course, the best solution is to just fix bibtex (like I said, on linux it works fine so there is not need to blabber about it being a feature of bibtex). Bo +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:57:31 +0100 Martin Geisler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Micha Feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a subdirectory with spaces). I believe the problem is the .bst file, I had the problem when I tried to use a home-made .bst file which I had placed in the same directory as my LyX file. No, I found out the reason was that it was addressed using a relative path which apparently works fine vs. an absolute path which fails (I am guessing that lyx copies the bib file to the temp directory when an absolute path is involved). -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Micha Feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:59 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:16:13 +0200 Micha Feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:37:50 -0800 Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, if it is in the texmf tree which is installed in a directory with spaces its the problem of whomever installed it and didn't follow the instructions. If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a subdirectory with spaces). Did your test include a .bst file which is what Bo brought up? http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186 Jan 03, 2006 This is a BibTeX limitation. The solution is to copy the .bst files to the temp dir before running LaTeX, as is done for .bib files, graphics etc. SH: This refers to an earlier solution: http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/Windows/LyX136pre 13 July 2005 Axel Rasche reported that spaces in the file path caused BibTeX to fail. The adopted solution copies the BibTeX data base to the temp directory, mangling its name in the process into something that's both recognizable to the user and useable by BibTeX. SH: Why is this indirect fix used instead of a more direct method? It has to do with LaTex being a macro package for the underlying TeX engine which is designed with the following behavior: David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and \input \read and other TeX primitives take a space to terminate the filename. \input this file will input a file called this (or try to) and typeset file, ... SH: So the recommended C:\texmf\bibtex\bst or, for custom files, C:\localtex\bibtex\bst works because the TeX engine does not encounter a space while traversing to the .bst file. So I think C:\MyDocs\foo.bst would work, but C:\My Docs\foo.bst would not because TeX doesn't find anything under C:\My At least this is my understanding. Browsing to a .bst file in C:\Mydocs ought to work. But if the user doesn't read the documentation and places the .bst file in C:\My docs, then browsing there won't work. If this freedom to misuse an option is considered a bug, then it means LyX is responsible for compensating for the user's failure to read the documentation in the first place, and so LyX takes the place of that documentation with a specific error message. If a user doesn't install Aspell (as per documentation) in C:\Aspell, then the spellchecker option is still active and if a user clicks on it, there isn't a specific error message generated: Aspell needs to be installed to C:\Aspell To be consistent, that would need to be considered a LyX bug also. I think the freedom to misuse an option is not a bug in a program. I do not think the Windows policy of exercising parental controls should be (im)ported as a basic LyX guideline and the failure to do so is a bug. Maybe I need an attitude adjustment, :-) Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Micha feigin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features. ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere. If the people can't come to LyX, bring LyX to the $People, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Georg Baum writes: > Martin Geisler wrote: > >> So please don't dismiss this as a WONTFIX bug... lots of people >> wont have a Linux-savy boyfriend to help them out with these things >> :-) > > Again: The problem is with bibtex, not with LyX. I'm sorry, I didn't make that clear -- I know that this discussion might belong better to a MikTex mailinglist but I just wanted to share my experience of using LyX with BibTeX under Windows. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgp7T1L9b7dfk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Helge Hafting <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Martin Geisler wrote: > >>Do you really mean that Microsoft decided on a default install path >>with spaces just to annoy all the future Unix-centric programs being >>ported to Windows? > > That is hard to know - I guess they simply see this as a 'bonus', > they probably weren't smart enough to pull this one of > deliberately. :-/ Hehe :-) > Sure - a space path is normal on windows, and LyX tries to cope with > those too. I think LyX do this quite well, but LyX does not work > alone. It depend on many other programs to do its work - most > notably latex. [...] You're of course completely right -- I didn't write my post carefully enough. What I wanted to argue against was the idea that just because there is an obvious work-around for the case with spaces in pathnames, it is not okay for BibTeX/LaTeX/whoever to rely on it when running under Windows. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgpP0YfjChs4a.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: "Georg Baum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> Cc: <lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 11:50 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Martin Geisler wrote: So please don't dismiss this as a WONTFIX bug... lots of people wont have a Linux-savy boyfriend to help them out with these things :-) Again: The problem is with bibtex, not with LyX. We can work around it in LyX (and I'll do so probably sometimes), see http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186 "This is a BibTeX limitation. The solution is to copy the .bst files to the temp dir before running LaTeX, as is done for .bib files, graphics etc." Meanwhile you have to live with the limitations and organize your .bst files like Herbert suggested. Georg The documentation about this on the LyX Wiki is not nearly as pointed, as for instance, the instruction that Aspell is a special case and one is required to install Aspell to C:\Aspell I once tried to install flpsed, a ghostscript-like annotator ported to Windows in place of gsview. It failed until I read Dan Luecking's advice below and I changed my temp dir under LyX preferences from the default to C:\LyX\Resources\lyx\temp (and also work). It was a path with spaces problem which wasn't related to LaTex. Dan's advice may be a bit of overkill but I thought to include it so that it enters LyX archives for possible future reference. Dan Luecking wrote: "Install TeX under C:\TeX instead "of C:\Program Files". For each user, create a TEMP environmental variable pointing to a directory without spaces in its name. For good measure, give each user a working directory without spaces in the pathname and create the variable HOME to point to it. Finally, when a program shortcut is added, configure it to start in the user's home directory. Having done all this since I started working with windows, I have almost never had a program fail due to failure to find its files." Regards, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: "Helge Hafting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Martin Geisler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:07 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller It is so much easier if these bugs are fixed in the proper place - fixing the problem in latex is better than adding a workaround in lyx, less code and the fix will benefit non-lyx latex users too. There are mailing lists for latex (and various latex distributions) too, try those. Helge Hafting I was browsing comp.text.tex and somebody reported a path with spaces bug regarding \includegraphics, I think it was. An "expert" replied that this was not really a bug, but a TeX feature! :-) I also noticed at miktex.org that the discussion of the 2.5.1 Beta still had a mention of the path with spaces problem. I guess it is time to let sleeping dogs lay and go to bed :-) Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:37:50 -0800
"Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Bo Peng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:49 PM
> Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
>
>
> My opinion is that if a file is allowed to 'browse in', it should
> work. Otherwise, it is a bug. A normal user would not care if it is
> latex' or lyx' or window', it is simply a bug. A lazy fix would give
> out a warning when a bst file with space is browsed in (since lyx know
> it will not work), and a better fix is handling .bst file the same way
> as the figures.
>
If I understand this correctly, you have a bib file that you included from the
bibtex browse option and it is sitting in a path with spaces, right? or did you
put it in the bibtex directory under texmf and you want it to be found
automatically?
Assuming the first one, I tried under linux to move an existing document to a
directory with spaces and then created another directory with spaces under it
and put the bib file in that. I then browsed to it and included it and it works
fine (under linux, didn't try windows yet).
If that is the case (and I will try windows later) then it most certainly is a
bug. If you put it into the bib directory under the texmf directory which
contains spaces in its path then it is a problem with the miktex installation
and not lyx.
Again, if it is in the texmf tree which is installed in a directory with spaces
its the problem of whomever installed it and didn't follow the instructions. If
the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user
browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug.
> Bo
>
> The browse function works as designed if you browse to
> a directory that adheres to the Miktex installation policy.
>
> It is not a bug if you circumvent a function that works
> correctly with the default bst directory install location.
> Anybody who changes parameters of a default installation
> is always responsible for problems arising from that change.
>
> In order to qualify as a bug, you need to claim that LyX should
> anticipate that a user will avoid installing bst files to the default
> folder, the only type (without spaces) of folder that works, but
> instead the user installs to a folder that won't work. Additionally,
> the LyX documentation should check for this and create a
> report for the user about what is essentially a Miktex gotcha.
> IMO, that is way too much to expect from online Lyx
> documentation, it falls short of being a bug.
>
> OTOH, I don't think you made a dumb mistake. I do doubt that
> it is a problem that a normal user will experience. Why is your
> report just now bringing up this issue, why hasn't there been
> a report about this from a normal user? Probably because the
> normal user doesn't encounter or expose this browse function.
> They probably use the ordinary procedures.
>
> That addresses the priority and depth of a solution. Angus says
> fixing this is fragile, difficult so time-consuming. It would fix a
> rarely experienced problem which has a great alternate solution.
> Using a directory without spaces is a very standard workaround.
> Windows uses double quotes (" ") to surround a path with spaces,
> and I think that should have a higher priority than: rewriting the LyX
> online doc plus a method to check the current directory for spaces
> and issue a warning to the user.
>
> I think writing an entry under WinLyX Tips which makes people
> aware of a potential problem is sufficient for a rarely encountered
> sticking point. Unless you think this is a more common error for
> normal users and nobody has bothered to report it in the past. I
> think it will be years before LyX developers have nothing better to
> do than to fix a Miktex/TeX limitation which is either not considered
> a bug, is a WONTFIX, or maybe can't be fixed.
>
> http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/support/tex4ht.html
>
> 3.1 MiKTeX
> "The approved way to use TeX4ht is via a series of batch files. Therefore,
> it is important that you install MiKTeX to a folder whose name (and path)
> does not include a space. The default location, c:\texmf, is perfect. If you
> really don't want MiKTeX in c:\texmf, you should place it in some
> subdirectory whose name does not include spaces, like c:\ProgramFiles (note:
> no space here) or c:\DosPrograms. You could also place GhostScript and
> ImageMagick in that folder."
>
> Regards,
> Stephen
>
>
>
> +++
> This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System
> at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
>
+++
This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System
at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
> If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by > the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. This is the case I reported, and I think lyx should do something about it. Actually, a label above the browse button like "File with spaces in its path may not work" should suffice. People tend to think this is a latex feature/bug, not lyx'. However, if I use latex directly, I will get a bunch of error messages like File "c:\my " and "documents\" does not exist, while in the case of lyx, I get no warning and incomplete output. Bo
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:16:13 +0200
Micha Feigin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:37:50 -0800
> "Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Bo Peng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org>
> > Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
> >
> >
> > My opinion is that if a file is allowed to 'browse in', it should
> > work. Otherwise, it is a bug. A normal user would not care if it is
> > latex' or lyx' or window', it is simply a bug. A lazy fix would give
> > out a warning when a bst file with space is browsed in (since lyx know
> > it will not work), and a better fix is handling .bst file the same way
> > as the figures.
> >
>
> If I understand this correctly, you have a bib file that you included from the
> bibtex browse option and it is sitting in a path with spaces, right? or did
> you
> put it in the bibtex directory under texmf and you want it to be found
> automatically?
>
> Assuming the first one, I tried under linux to move an existing document to a
> directory with spaces and then created another directory with spaces under it
> and put the bib file in that. I then browsed to it and included it and it
> works
> fine (under linux, didn't try windows yet).
>
> If that is the case (and I will try windows later) then it most certainly is a
> bug. If you put it into the bib directory under the texmf directory which
> contains spaces in its path then it is a problem with the miktex installation
> and not lyx.
>
> Again, if it is in the texmf tree which is installed in a directory with
> spaces
> its the problem of whomever installed it and didn't follow the instructions.
> If
> the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the
> user
> browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug.
>
I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib file that is
in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is in a file with spaces
or explicitly where it is also in a subdirectory with spaces).
> > Bo
> >
> > The browse function works as designed if you browse to
> > a directory that adheres to the Miktex installation policy.
> >
> > It is not a bug if you circumvent a function that works
> > correctly with the default bst directory install location.
> > Anybody who changes parameters of a default installation
> > is always responsible for problems arising from that change.
> >
> > In order to qualify as a bug, you need to claim that LyX should
> > anticipate that a user will avoid installing bst files to the default
> > folder, the only type (without spaces) of folder that works, but
> > instead the user installs to a folder that won't work. Additionally,
> > the LyX documentation should check for this and create a
> > report for the user about what is essentially a Miktex gotcha.
> > IMO, that is way too much to expect from online Lyx
> > documentation, it falls short of being a bug.
> >
> > OTOH, I don't think you made a dumb mistake. I do doubt that
> > it is a problem that a normal user will experience. Why is your
> > report just now bringing up this issue, why hasn't there been
> > a report about this from a normal user? Probably because the
> > normal user doesn't encounter or expose this browse function.
> > They probably use the ordinary procedures.
> >
> > That addresses the priority and depth of a solution. Angus says
> > fixing this is fragile, difficult so time-consuming. It would fix a
> > rarely experienced problem which has a great alternate solution.
> > Using a directory without spaces is a very standard workaround.
> > Windows uses double quotes (" ") to surround a path with spaces,
> > and I think that should have a higher priority than: rewriting the LyX
> > online doc plus a method to check the current directory for spaces
> > and issue a warning to the user.
> >
> > I think writing an entry under WinLyX Tips which makes people
> > aware of a potential problem is sufficient for a rarely encountered
> > sticking point. Unless you think this is a more common error for
> > normal users and nobody has bothered to report it in the past. I
> > think it will be years before LyX developers have nothing better to
> > do than to fix a Miktex/TeX limitation which is either not considered
> > a bug, is a WONTFIX, or maybe can't be fixed.
> >
> > http://facweb
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Micha Feigin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib > file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is > in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a > subdirectory with spaces). I believe the problem is the .bst file, I had the problem when I tried to use a home-made .bst file which I had placed in the same directory as my LyX file. -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgp56oUjw3nWx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:44:01 -0600 Bo Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by > > the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. > > This is the case I reported, and I think lyx should do something about > it. Actually, a label above the browse button like "File with spaces > in its path may not work" should suffice. > > People tend to think this is a latex feature/bug, not lyx'. However, > if I use latex directly, I will get a bunch of error messages like > File "c:\my " and "documents\" does not exist, while in the case of > lyx, I get no warning and incomplete output. > I did some more testing. If I use a relative path (with spaces) instead of an absolute one for the bibtex file, then compiling through lyx works fine (I am guessing lyx moves this file to the temp directory to overcome the relative path). If I try to export the file to latex I get a popup window that warns me that the path contains spaces and bibtex won't be able to find it (but it does export). An absolute path with spaces to the bib file causes an empty bibliography since bibtex can't find the file. Everything works fine under linux no matter what I do. I guess that a partial solution for windows can not to check whether the path is relative or absolute and always copy the bib file to the temp directory (assuming that's what is done) thus there won't be any spaces in the relative path to the bib file (assuming that bibtex can work with paths with spaces as long as it doesn't know it, i.e the file itself is in a path with spaces). If bibtex still has a problem you can try recommending setting up a temp directory with no spaces (possibly allowing a special temp directory only for lyx, different then the global one by some means). Another solution that may work is to use old style paths so that they won't have spaces (don't know if that is possible, I know that the command prompt accepts it but if the code does). Of course, the best solution is to just fix bibtex (like I said, on linux it works fine so there is not need to blabber about it being a "feature" of bibtex). > Bo > > +++ > This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System > at the Tel-Aviv University CC. > +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:57:31 +0100 Martin Geisler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Micha Feigin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib > > file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is > > in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a > > subdirectory with spaces). > > I believe the problem is the .bst file, I had the problem when I tried > to use a home-made .bst file which I had placed in the same directory > as my LyX file. > No, I found out the reason was that it was addressed using a relative path which apparently works fine vs. an absolute path which fails (I am guessing that lyx copies the bib file to the temp directory when an absolute path is involved). > -- > Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 > > PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell > http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ > Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC.
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: "Micha Feigin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:59 AM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:16:13 +0200 Micha Feigin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:37:50 -0800 "Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Again, if it is in the texmf tree which is installed in a directory with spaces its the problem of whomever installed it and didn't follow the >> instructions. If the bib file is in a local user directory (with spaces) and included by the user browsing to it then it is very much a lyx bug. I checked this on windows and I don't get any problem with a bib file that is in a path with spaces (implicitly where the lyx file is in a file with spaces or explicitly where it is also in a subdirectory with spaces). Did your test include a .bst file which is what Bo brought up? http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2186 Jan 03, 2006 "This is a BibTeX limitation. The solution is to copy the .bst files to the temp dir before running LaTeX, as is done for .bib files, graphics etc." SH: This refers to an earlier solution: http://wiki.lyx.org/pmwiki.php/Windows/LyX136pre 13 July 2005 "Axel Rasche reported that spaces in the file path caused BibTeX to fail. The adopted solution copies the BibTeX data base to the temp directory, mangling its name in the process into something that's both recognizable to the user and useable by BibTeX." SH: Why is this indirect fix used instead of a more direct method? It has to do with LaTex being a macro package for the underlying TeX engine which is designed with the following behavior: David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - "I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and \input \read and other TeX primitives take a space to terminate the filename. \input this file will input a file called this (or try to) and typeset "file", ..." SH: So the recommended C:\texmf\bibtex\bst or, for custom files, C:\localtex\bibtex\bst works because the TeX engine does not encounter a space while traversing to the .bst file. So I think C:\MyDocs\foo.bst would work, but C:\My Docs\foo.bst would not because TeX doesn't find anything under C:\My At least this is my understanding. Browsing to a .bst file in C:\Mydocs ought to work. But if the user doesn't read the documentation and places the .bst file in C:\My docs, then browsing there won't work. If this freedom to misuse an option is considered a bug, then it means LyX is responsible for compensating for the user's failure to read the documentation in the first place, and so LyX takes the place of that documentation with a specific error message. If a user doesn't install Aspell (as per documentation) in C:\Aspell, then the spellchecker option is still active and if a user clicks on it, there isn't a specific error message generated: "Aspell needs to be installed to C:\Aspell" To be consistent, that would need to be considered a LyX bug also. I think the freedom to misuse an option is not a bug in a program. I do not think the Windows policy of exercising parental controls should be (im)ported as a basic LyX guideline and the failure to do so is a bug. Maybe I need an attitude adjustment, :-) Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: "Micha feigin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller [...] David Carlisle Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:03:33 - "I'm sorry but this isn't really a bug but a feature of the underlying TeX system. Although LaTeX uses a brace delimited syntax, this has to expand to the primitive TeX syntax, and Micha feigin: "Whatever the lame excuse, this is a bug and not a feature since everything works just fine under linux, spaces and all. Besides, everything else works with spaces so I don't see any reason why this shouldn't. Beside the fact that people expect it to work with spaces in the path both in linux and in windows, so adapt the features to the people and not the people to the features." ... SH: This is such a compelling and convincing argument that it certainly deserves recognition from the forum for its perspicuous explanation of why, since it works on linux, that it should work on Windows. I will contribute only a Wordy, clarifying remark: "Unix and Unix-like operating systems assign a device name to each device, but this is not how the files on that device are accessed. Instead, Unix creates a virtual file system, which makes all the files on all the devices appear to exist under one hierarchy. This means, in Unix, there is one root directory, and every file existing on the system is located under it somewhere." If the people can't come to LyX, bring LyX to the $People, Stephen
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As it stands now, that decision [to make the default install path C:\Program Files] was a marketing decision, because the choice causes problem with porting programs to Windows which Microsoft doesn't gather revenue from. I'm sick of that ludicrous misnomer, guideline being applied to a proprietary money-making scheme which does nothing to benefit the operation of LyXhelpers. Do you really mean that Microsoft decided on a default install path with spaces just to annoy all the future Unix-centric programs being ported to Windows? If you download a .bst file from the internet and put it into C:\My research papers along with research.lyx it doesn't work, not because of some alleged problem that reflects to C:\My Documents, but for the same reason C:\program files\texmf doesn't work. It has nothing to do with retraining. And I consider both of these problems to be a bug when I encounter them under Windows. Spaces in paths are a *normal* thing under Windows, and programs ported to Windows should be able to deal with them. If not, then I really think the problem lies with the program. I use Linux myself and there we all know that spaces in file names are nasty thing because they cause different problems for shell scripts. So in Linux the norm is to avoid spaces, and so everything works fine. But when I installed LyX for my girlfriend I made a directory called `LyX Test' and fooled around in it to see what this thing was all about. And when I wanted to include a custom .bst file I placed it in the same directory only to be met with errors. Coming from Linux I soon suspected the weird path name and renamed the directory --- and things worked fine. So please don't dismiss this as a WONTFIX bug... lots of people wont have a Linux-savy boyfriend to help them out with these things :-) -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgpRXNP4zYuwL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Martin Geisler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Cc: lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you download a .bst file from the internet and put it into C:\My research papers along with research.lyx it doesn't work, not because of some alleged problem that reflects to C:\My Documents, but for the same reason C:\program files\texmf doesn't work. It has nothing to do with retraining. And I consider both of these problems to be a bug when I encounter them under Windows. Spaces in paths are a *normal* thing under Windows, and programs ported to Windows should be able to deal with them. If not, then I really think the problem lies with the program. I use Linux myself and there we all know that spaces in file names are nasty thing because they cause different problems for shell scripts. So in Linux the norm is to avoid spaces, and so everything works fine. -- SH: I am not so sure that you followed this thread. So I'm going to requote Bo Peng, his complaint and suggested solution which has introduced the path with spaces aspect of this discussion. quoting BO: Dear list, Under linux, I can put a customized .bst file with the lyx file and use it in the 'bibtex bibliography dialog. This does not work under windows. Is it because bibtex can not find the .bst file? Bo ... If you View-LaTeX info-BibTeX styles, can you see the .bst file? No. The .bst file is under the same directory as the .lyx file. I use 'browse' in the bib tex dialog to use it. Under linux, this is enough. Bo I am not quite sure why miktex/bibtex can not handle a path with spaces, whereas miktex/latex can. Anyway, if this is a problem that will be classified as WONTFIX, it would be better to warn the user about this when a .bst file is selected in the bibtex dialog. If a user is *allowed* to select and use a .bst file, and end up with no bibliography in the output, his confidence in lyx will suffer. Bo end of quoting Bo SH: I'm going to summarize my understanding of his posts. Under Linux, Bo was able to browse to a directory that contained a customized (downloaded from internet) .bst file and this worked. Under Windows, Bo browsed to a directory containing a customized .bst file and it didn't work. Bo thought this behavior was inconsistent and unexpected so that a warning ought to be included in the Lyx online documentation. Do you understand his posts the same way? I think there is very likely an error in Bo's reasoning. Bo placed the .bst file in a Windows directory which contained spaces. It didn't work and that is expected. I don't know for sure, but I think it is quite likely that the Linux case which did work, had the .bst placed in a directory path which had no spaces. This is expected and so the overall behavior is consistent and does not need LyX online documentation. Instructions already exist. How would Bo's warning be implemented? The LyX browse option would have to analyze the Windows installation directory to see if it contained spaces. If there are no spaces it works. So the LyX browse option ought to determine that the Windows folder contains spaces and then produce a popup warning which says The browse option is not available since you have installed a .bst file to a Windows directory without spaces. I don' think so. What I do think is that the Miktex install instructions say: It is recommended that you install Miktex to directory without spaces. The default install directory used during Miktex setup is: C:\texmf Miktex instruction state to install .bst files in C:\texmf\bibtex\bst and that is the default install directory. If a poweruser elects to ignore installation recommendation and change the default install directory of Miktex/texmf then that user assumes the responsibility of knowing the consequences of such a change, and to implement a deviation from the default in such a way that the install is not defeated by his interventions. It is not the responsibility of Lyx online documentation to warn the user of his oversights/mistakes in modifying another program's defaults. There are dozens of newcomer mistakes that result in LyX or its helper applications that arise from not following instruction and result in some type of malfunction. Whether it is the newcomer lack of knowledge or the poweruser's failure to anticipate consequences of his shortcut, there is one description which describes both failures. User installation error. There is nothing special about a poweruser error which deserves its own special specific online LyX explanation. -- But when I installed LyX for my girlfriend I made a directory called `LyX Test' and fooled around in it to see what this thing was all about. And when I wanted to include
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org; Martin Geisler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:07 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller - Original Message - From: Martin Geisler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Cc: lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller it contained spaces. If there are no spaces it works. So the LyX browse option ought to determine that the Windows folder contains spaces and then produce a popup warning which says The browse option is not available since you have installed a .bst file to a Windows directory without spaces. I don' think so. ^with^ correction. The Windows user without the hacker proclivity follows the setup defaults and puts the .bst files into a directory designated by the doc to contain them. If they acquire a custom .bst file they follow the documented procedure for placing them in that same designated location. Actually I think the doc recommends putting custom files in C:\localtexmf which is not the same designated location. So C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
SH: I'm going to summarize my understanding of his posts. ignore 3 words You are not summarizing, rather extending my posts. It has been clear that 1. Miktex is installed under a path without space, following the Miktex recommendations. 2. Lyx is installed under c:\program files and it is *not* causing any problem, 3. The lyx document, along with .bib, .eps, .png files are handled correctly by lyx, even if they are put under a path with spaces. 4. If a customized .bst file is put along with the lyx file, in a path with space, it can be browsed in but the output has no bibliography without any kind of warning/error message. My opinion is that if a file is allowed to 'browse in', it should work. Otherwise, it is a bug. A normal user would not care if it is latex' or lyx' or window', it is simply a bug. A lazy fix would give out a warning when a bst file with space is browsed in (since lyx know it will not work), and a better fix is handling .bst file the same way as the figures. Bo
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As it stands now, that decision [to make the default install path C:\Program Files] was a marketing decision, because the choice causes problem with porting programs to Windows which Microsoft doesn't gather revenue from. I'm sick of that ludicrous misnomer, guideline being applied to a proprietary money-making scheme which does nothing to benefit the operation of LyXhelpers. Do you really mean that Microsoft decided on a default install path with spaces just to annoy all the future Unix-centric programs being ported to Windows? If you download a .bst file from the internet and put it into C:\My research papers along with research.lyx it doesn't work, not because of some alleged problem that reflects to C:\My Documents, but for the same reason C:\program files\texmf doesn't work. It has nothing to do with retraining. And I consider both of these problems to be a bug when I encounter them under Windows. Spaces in paths are a *normal* thing under Windows, and programs ported to Windows should be able to deal with them. If not, then I really think the problem lies with the program. I use Linux myself and there we all know that spaces in file names are nasty thing because they cause different problems for shell scripts. So in Linux the norm is to avoid spaces, and so everything works fine. But when I installed LyX for my girlfriend I made a directory called `LyX Test' and fooled around in it to see what this thing was all about. And when I wanted to include a custom .bst file I placed it in the same directory only to be met with errors. Coming from Linux I soon suspected the weird path name and renamed the directory --- and things worked fine. So please don't dismiss this as a WONTFIX bug... lots of people wont have a Linux-savy boyfriend to help them out with these things :-) -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgpRXNP4zYuwL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Martin Geisler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Cc: lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you download a .bst file from the internet and put it into C:\My research papers along with research.lyx it doesn't work, not because of some alleged problem that reflects to C:\My Documents, but for the same reason C:\program files\texmf doesn't work. It has nothing to do with retraining. And I consider both of these problems to be a bug when I encounter them under Windows. Spaces in paths are a *normal* thing under Windows, and programs ported to Windows should be able to deal with them. If not, then I really think the problem lies with the program. I use Linux myself and there we all know that spaces in file names are nasty thing because they cause different problems for shell scripts. So in Linux the norm is to avoid spaces, and so everything works fine. -- SH: I am not so sure that you followed this thread. So I'm going to requote Bo Peng, his complaint and suggested solution which has introduced the path with spaces aspect of this discussion. quoting BO: Dear list, Under linux, I can put a customized .bst file with the lyx file and use it in the 'bibtex bibliography dialog. This does not work under windows. Is it because bibtex can not find the .bst file? Bo ... If you View-LaTeX info-BibTeX styles, can you see the .bst file? No. The .bst file is under the same directory as the .lyx file. I use 'browse' in the bib tex dialog to use it. Under linux, this is enough. Bo I am not quite sure why miktex/bibtex can not handle a path with spaces, whereas miktex/latex can. Anyway, if this is a problem that will be classified as WONTFIX, it would be better to warn the user about this when a .bst file is selected in the bibtex dialog. If a user is *allowed* to select and use a .bst file, and end up with no bibliography in the output, his confidence in lyx will suffer. Bo end of quoting Bo SH: I'm going to summarize my understanding of his posts. Under Linux, Bo was able to browse to a directory that contained a customized (downloaded from internet) .bst file and this worked. Under Windows, Bo browsed to a directory containing a customized .bst file and it didn't work. Bo thought this behavior was inconsistent and unexpected so that a warning ought to be included in the Lyx online documentation. Do you understand his posts the same way? I think there is very likely an error in Bo's reasoning. Bo placed the .bst file in a Windows directory which contained spaces. It didn't work and that is expected. I don't know for sure, but I think it is quite likely that the Linux case which did work, had the .bst placed in a directory path which had no spaces. This is expected and so the overall behavior is consistent and does not need LyX online documentation. Instructions already exist. How would Bo's warning be implemented? The LyX browse option would have to analyze the Windows installation directory to see if it contained spaces. If there are no spaces it works. So the LyX browse option ought to determine that the Windows folder contains spaces and then produce a popup warning which says The browse option is not available since you have installed a .bst file to a Windows directory without spaces. I don' think so. What I do think is that the Miktex install instructions say: It is recommended that you install Miktex to directory without spaces. The default install directory used during Miktex setup is: C:\texmf Miktex instruction state to install .bst files in C:\texmf\bibtex\bst and that is the default install directory. If a poweruser elects to ignore installation recommendation and change the default install directory of Miktex/texmf then that user assumes the responsibility of knowing the consequences of such a change, and to implement a deviation from the default in such a way that the install is not defeated by his interventions. It is not the responsibility of Lyx online documentation to warn the user of his oversights/mistakes in modifying another program's defaults. There are dozens of newcomer mistakes that result in LyX or its helper applications that arise from not following instruction and result in some type of malfunction. Whether it is the newcomer lack of knowledge or the poweruser's failure to anticipate consequences of his shortcut, there is one description which describes both failures. User installation error. There is nothing special about a poweruser error which deserves its own special specific online LyX explanation. -- But when I installed LyX for my girlfriend I made a directory called `LyX Test' and fooled around in it to see what this thing was all about. And when I wanted to include
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: Stephen Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org; Martin Geisler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:07 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller - Original Message - From: Martin Geisler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Cc: lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller it contained spaces. If there are no spaces it works. So the LyX browse option ought to determine that the Windows folder contains spaces and then produce a popup warning which says The browse option is not available since you have installed a .bst file to a Windows directory without spaces. I don' think so. ^with^ correction. The Windows user without the hacker proclivity follows the setup defaults and puts the .bst files into a directory designated by the doc to contain them. If they acquire a custom .bst file they follow the documented procedure for placing them in that same designated location. Actually I think the doc recommends putting custom files in C:\localtexmf which is not the same designated location. So C:\localtexmf\bibtex\bst
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
SH: I'm going to summarize my understanding of his posts. ignore 3 words You are not summarizing, rather extending my posts. It has been clear that 1. Miktex is installed under a path without space, following the Miktex recommendations. 2. Lyx is installed under c:\program files and it is *not* causing any problem, 3. The lyx document, along with .bib, .eps, .png files are handled correctly by lyx, even if they are put under a path with spaces. 4. If a customized .bst file is put along with the lyx file, in a path with space, it can be browsed in but the output has no bibliography without any kind of warning/error message. My opinion is that if a file is allowed to 'browse in', it should work. Otherwise, it is a bug. A normal user would not care if it is latex' or lyx' or window', it is simply a bug. A lazy fix would give out a warning when a bst file with space is browsed in (since lyx know it will not work), and a better fix is handling .bst file the same way as the figures. Bo
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
"Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > As it stands now, that decision [to make the default install path > "C:\Program Files"] was a marketing decision, because the choice > causes problem with porting programs to Windows which Microsoft > doesn't gather revenue from. I'm sick of that ludicrous misnomer, > "guideline" being applied to a proprietary money-making scheme which > does nothing to benefit the operation of LyX Do you really mean that Microsoft decided on a default install path with spaces just to annoy all the future Unix-centric programs being ported to Windows? > If you download a .bst file from the internet and put it into C:\My > research papers along with research.lyx it doesn't work, not because > of some alleged problem that reflects to C:\My Documents, but for > the same reason C:\program files\texmf doesn't work. It has nothing > to do with retraining. And I consider both of these problems to be a bug when I encounter them under Windows. Spaces in paths are a *normal* thing under Windows, and programs ported to Windows should be able to deal with them. If not, then I really think the problem lies with the program. I use Linux myself and there we all know that spaces in file names are nasty thing because they cause different problems for shell scripts. So in Linux the norm is to avoid spaces, and so everything works fine. But when I installed LyX for my girlfriend I made a directory called `LyX Test' and fooled around in it to see what this thing was all about. And when I wanted to include a custom .bst file I placed it in the same directory only to be met with errors. Coming from Linux I soon suspected the "weird" path name and renamed the directory --- and things worked fine. So please don't dismiss this as a WONTFIX bug... lots of people wont have a Linux-savy boyfriend to help them out with these things :-) -- Martin Geisler GnuPG Key: 0x7E45DD38 PHP Exif Library | PHP Weather | PHP Shell http://pel.sf.net/| http://phpweather.net/ | http://mgeisler.net/ Read/write Exif data | Show current weather| A shell in a browser pgpRXNP4zYuwL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller
- Original Message - From: "Martin Geisler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> Cc: <lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: Re: sixth release of LyXWinInstaller "Stephen Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: If you download a .bst file from the internet and put it into C:\My research papers along with research.lyx it doesn't work, not because of some alleged problem that reflects to C:\My Documents, but for the same reason C:\program files\texmf doesn't work. It has nothing to do with retraining. And I consider both of these problems to be a bug when I encounter them under Windows. Spaces in paths are a *normal* thing under Windows, and programs ported to Windows should be able to deal with them. If not, then I really think the problem lies with the program. I use Linux myself and there we all know that spaces in file names are nasty thing because they cause different problems for shell scripts. So in Linux the norm is to avoid spaces, and so everything works fine. -- SH: I am not so sure that you followed this thread. So I'm going to requote Bo Peng, his complaint and suggested solution which has introduced the "path with spaces" aspect of this discussion. : Dear list, Under linux, I can put a customized .bst file with the lyx file and use it in the 'bibtex bibliography" dialog. This does not work under windows. Is it because bibtex can not find the .bst file? Bo ... If you View->LaTeX info->BibTeX styles, can you see the .bst file? No. The .bst file is under the same directory as the .lyx file. I use 'browse' in the bib tex dialog to use it. Under linux, this is enough. Bo I am not quite sure why miktex/bibtex can not handle a path with spaces, whereas miktex/latex can. Anyway, if this is a problem that will be classified as WONTFIX, it would be better to warn the user about this when a .bst file is selected in the bibtex dialog. If a user is *allowed* to select and use a .bst file, and end up with no bibliography in the output, his confidence in lyx will suffer. Bo SH: I'm going to summarize my understanding of his posts. Under Linux, Bo was able to browse to a directory that contained a customized (downloaded from internet) .bst file and this worked. Under Windows, Bo browsed to a directory containing a customized .bst file and it didn't work. Bo thought this behavior was inconsistent and unexpected so that a warning ought to be included in the Lyx online documentation. Do you understand his posts the same way? I think there is very likely an error in Bo's reasoning. Bo placed the .bst file in a Windows directory which contained spaces. It didn't work and that is expected. I don't know for sure, but I think it is quite likely that the Linux case which did work, had the .bst placed in a directory path which had no spaces. This is expected and so the overall behavior is consistent and does not need LyX online documentation. Instructions already exist. How would Bo's warning be implemented? The LyX browse option would have to analyze the Windows installation directory to see if it contained spaces. If there are no spaces it works. So the LyX browse option ought to determine that the Windows folder contains spaces and then produce a popup warning which says "The browse option is not available since you have installed a .bst file to a Windows directory without spaces." I don' think so. What I do think is that the Miktex install instructions say: "It is recommended that you install Miktex to directory without spaces." The default install directory used during Miktex setup is: C:\texmf Miktex instruction state to install .bst files in C:\texmf\bibtex\bst and that is the default install directory. If a poweruser elects to ignore installation recommendation and change the default install directory of Miktex/texmf then that user assumes the responsibility of knowing the consequences of such a change, and to implement a deviation from the default in such a way that the install is not defeated by his interventions. It is not the responsibility of Lyx online documentation to warn the user of his oversights/mistakes in modifying another program's defaults. There are dozens of newcomer mistakes that result in LyX or its helper applications that arise from not following instruction and result in some type of malfunction. Whether it is the newcomer lack of knowledge or the poweruser's failure to anticipate consequences of his shortcut, there is one description which describes both failures. User installation error. There is nothing special about a poweruser error which deserves its own special specific online LyX explanation. -- But when I installed LyX for my girlfriend I made a directory called `LyX Test' and fooled around in
