Re: Speaking of support for Camel Bones
Well said Bruce. Count me in. Jeremiah Wed, May 09, 2007 at 09:30:33AM -0700: Bruce Van Allen mangled some bits into this alignment: On 5/8/07 Tim Bunce wrote: On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 05:38:42PM -0400, Sherm Pendley wrote: On May 8, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Bruce Van Allen wrote: I think we can confidently answer the Benefits to the Perl Community issue. That's my biggest concern. CB is mostly of use to the subset of the community who are using Macs, and need to write GUI apps. My concern is whether that's a big enough subset to warrant a grant. Don't just think about the Benefits to the Perl _Developer_ Community. Also think in terms of increasing the size of the Perl _User_ Community by enabling quality Mac apps to be implemented in/with perl. Tim. Exactly. I don't have an actual count, but what comes to mind is the huge number of people now dipping their toes into SQL and programmable database systems simply because of the (L)AMP connection of mySQL and PHP. Appreciate what they're missing (besides being limited to a Web framework): CB + DBI = the real thing. And there would be plenty of other growth vectors opened up. But moving past the why, some work needs to be done before the sales pitch/evangelism. Sherm will need to write a proposal and submit it to the Perl Foundation. The rest of this message has my suggestions for how this could happen. The next deadline for submissions is June 8, 2007. Per TPF guidelines, the proposal needs to include some things that have to be thought through and written out: - Synopsis A short description. - Benefits to the Perl Community - Deliverables Quantifiable results e.g. Improve X modules in ways Y and Z, Write 3 articles for X website. - Project Details A more detailed description. Additional non-trivial items are a schedule for the project and a description of Sherm's background and qualifications to do the project. A quick look at recently funded TPF grants suggests that this might take a total of 2500 to 4000 words -- the length of a serious journal article. To do this in one month, it would be handy to have some milestones that give Sherm a timeline for writing, and provide those of us who want to help a structure for some parallel processing. 1. Project Definition. To start, the project will need to be defined; in my view this should be the realistic next set of steps in CB's development. The rest of the proposal follows from the project definition. - Sherm's part: I imagine Sherm has next steps in mind, so the task now would be for him to write out a description and circulate it. - Our part: We can help if he needs encouragement to think big or if he needs to choose what to take _off_ the plate for now. 2. Outlines, lists, or blurts for the sections listed above. This is just to get started; the point is to see what needs to be said and where it should be said in the sections of the proposal. - Sherm's part: Sherm should do this in whatever way he's most comfortable putting ideas into words. Concreteness and clarity more important than golden sentences. Ask for support where you have gaps. - Our part: Review and especially check for what's missing/incomplete in the _ideas_ for each section. Conceive of examples. Check references. 3. Writing Writing is re-writing. - Sherm's part: Develop drafts. Write to an audience that is both demanding of you and also believes in you. - Our part: review drafts, feed back quickly, stay on topic. 4. Proposal Composition The written pieces need to be strung together in order and printed out in a format different from the previous composition, so the emerging proposal may be read with fresh eyes. - Sherm's part: Piece it together, send it out, and then take a break. - Our part: Read, review, encourage, stay on topic. 5. Credentials This is a part that is important but outside the particulars of the proposed project, namely Sherm's qualifications. - Sherm's part: circulate something. Don't be modest, don't BS. - Our part: Read and review; also write our own brief and focused support notes/letters. 6. Project Schedule Budget The proposal will need a schedule for the project that makes sense, and a budget for Sherm's time that is credible. At this starting point (May 9), I think attention should be on conceiving a sufficiently large project to move CB forward -- but I don't know what that is, or how long it would take. Looking at past TPF grants will give some context for this. But focus on the project for now, and come back to this after progress on the above steps. OK, those are enough milestones for now. All meant in the spirit of creating a framework, nothing rigid or right about it. How about some dates? 1. Project Definition. Mon, May 14. 2. Outlines, lists, or blurts for the sections listed above. Fri May 18. 3. Writing Fri May 25 4. Proposal
Re: Speaking of support for Camel Bones
Sherm Pendley wrote: snip That's my biggest concern. CB is mostly of use to the subset of the community who are using Macs, and need to write GUI apps. My concern is whether that's a big enough subset to warrant a grant. Yes, but think of the future. If this is funded and gets to be a part of OSX going forward then the community really is anyone who *may* program in Perl on OSX in the future. That could be a large number of people that would be helped by CB. Evangelism is all that is needed. : ) Robert
Re: Speaking of support for Camel Bones
On 5/8/07 Tim Bunce wrote: On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 05:38:42PM -0400, Sherm Pendley wrote: On May 8, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Bruce Van Allen wrote: I think we can confidently answer the Benefits to the Perl Community issue. That's my biggest concern. CB is mostly of use to the subset of the community who are using Macs, and need to write GUI apps. My concern is whether that's a big enough subset to warrant a grant. Don't just think about the Benefits to the Perl _Developer_ Community. Also think in terms of increasing the size of the Perl _User_ Community by enabling quality Mac apps to be implemented in/with perl. Tim. Exactly. I don't have an actual count, but what comes to mind is the huge number of people now dipping their toes into SQL and programmable database systems simply because of the (L)AMP connection of mySQL and PHP. Appreciate what they're missing (besides being limited to a Web framework): CB + DBI = the real thing. And there would be plenty of other growth vectors opened up. But moving past the why, some work needs to be done before the sales pitch/evangelism. Sherm will need to write a proposal and submit it to the Perl Foundation. The rest of this message has my suggestions for how this could happen. The next deadline for submissions is June 8, 2007. Per TPF guidelines, the proposal needs to include some things that have to be thought through and written out: - Synopsis A short description. - Benefits to the Perl Community - Deliverables Quantifiable results e.g. Improve X modules in ways Y and Z, Write 3 articles for X website. - Project Details A more detailed description. Additional non-trivial items are a schedule for the project and a description of Sherm's background and qualifications to do the project. A quick look at recently funded TPF grants suggests that this might take a total of 2500 to 4000 words -- the length of a serious journal article. To do this in one month, it would be handy to have some milestones that give Sherm a timeline for writing, and provide those of us who want to help a structure for some parallel processing. 1. Project Definition. To start, the project will need to be defined; in my view this should be the realistic next set of steps in CB's development. The rest of the proposal follows from the project definition. - Sherm's part: I imagine Sherm has next steps in mind, so the task now would be for him to write out a description and circulate it. - Our part: We can help if he needs encouragement to think big or if he needs to choose what to take _off_ the plate for now. 2. Outlines, lists, or blurts for the sections listed above. This is just to get started; the point is to see what needs to be said and where it should be said in the sections of the proposal. - Sherm's part: Sherm should do this in whatever way he's most comfortable putting ideas into words. Concreteness and clarity more important than golden sentences. Ask for support where you have gaps. - Our part: Review and especially check for what's missing/incomplete in the _ideas_ for each section. Conceive of examples. Check references. 3. Writing Writing is re-writing. - Sherm's part: Develop drafts. Write to an audience that is both demanding of you and also believes in you. - Our part: review drafts, feed back quickly, stay on topic. 4. Proposal Composition The written pieces need to be strung together in order and printed out in a format different from the previous composition, so the emerging proposal may be read with fresh eyes. - Sherm's part: Piece it together, send it out, and then take a break. - Our part: Read, review, encourage, stay on topic. 5. Credentials This is a part that is important but outside the particulars of the proposed project, namely Sherm's qualifications. - Sherm's part: circulate something. Don't be modest, don't BS. - Our part: Read and review; also write our own brief and focused support notes/letters. 6. Project Schedule Budget The proposal will need a schedule for the project that makes sense, and a budget for Sherm's time that is credible. At this starting point (May 9), I think attention should be on conceiving a sufficiently large project to move CB forward -- but I don't know what that is, or how long it would take. Looking at past TPF grants will give some context for this. But focus on the project for now, and come back to this after progress on the above steps. OK, those are enough milestones for now. All meant in the spirit of creating a framework, nothing rigid or right about it. How about some dates? 1. Project Definition. Mon, May 14. 2. Outlines, lists, or blurts for the sections listed above. Fri May 18. 3. Writing Fri May 25 4. Proposal Composition Tues May 29 5. Credentials Fri June 1 6. Project Schedule Budget Fri June 1 These dates are arbitrary, but if we get those things done, the remaining week up to the Fri June 8 deadline should be sufficient for final editing and
Re: Speaking of support for Camel Bones
On 5/7/07 Chris Nandor wrote: Have you considered a Perl Foundation Grant? On 5/7/07 Tim Bunce wrote: Seconded, FWIW. On 5/8/07 Tom Yarrish wrote: This just came through on my RSS reader. http://news.perl-foundation.org/2007/05/calls_for_proposals.html Let's get behind this. Sherm could do some work that moves CB forward, maybe the .scriptingbridge metadata. I can't send money right now -- I freelance and am also currently in a trough. But I've done lots of editing and grant-writing, so if you need that kind of help to tighten up a proposal, let me know. Also, I notice that the Perl Foundation guidelines don't mention letters of support, but if Sherm submits a proposal, letters to vouch for him CB would probably help (now Chris, don't auto-bury them ;-). I think we can confidently answer the Benefits to the Perl Community issue. Maybe Apple could make a grant to TPF -- tax-deductible 'n' all -- designated for this project... Best, - Bruce __bruce__van_allen__santa_cruz__ca__
Re: Speaking of support for Camel Bones
On May 8, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Bruce Van Allen wrote: On 5/7/07 Chris Nandor wrote: Have you considered a Perl Foundation Grant? On 5/7/07 Tim Bunce wrote: Seconded, FWIW. On 5/8/07 Tom Yarrish wrote: This just came through on my RSS reader. http://news.perl-foundation.org/2007/05/calls_for_proposals.html Let's get behind this. Sherm could do some work that moves CB forward, maybe the .scriptingbridge metadata. I can't send money right now -- I freelance and am also currently in a trough. But I've done lots of editing and grant-writing, so if you need that kind of help to tighten up a proposal, let me know. That would certainly be a help. I've never written a proposal like this before. I'd like to learn, so I'd prefer to write at least the first draft myself, but feedback from someone with experience would be very valuable. Also, I notice that the Perl Foundation guidelines don't mention letters of support, but if Sherm submits a proposal, letters to vouch for him CB would probably help (now Chris, don't auto-bury them ;-). I think he only does that for Red Sox polls. :-) I think we can confidently answer the Benefits to the Perl Community issue. That's my biggest concern. CB is mostly of use to the subset of the community who are using Macs, and need to write GUI apps. My concern is whether that's a big enough subset to warrant a grant. Maybe Apple could make a grant to TPF -- tax-deductible 'n' all -- designated for this project... I'll ask my sponsor at Apple about it. sherm-- Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Re: Speaking of support for Camel Bones
On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 05:38:42PM -0400, Sherm Pendley wrote: On May 8, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Bruce Van Allen wrote: I think we can confidently answer the Benefits to the Perl Community issue. That's my biggest concern. CB is mostly of use to the subset of the community who are using Macs, and need to write GUI apps. My concern is whether that's a big enough subset to warrant a grant. Don't just think about the Benefits to the Perl _Developer_ Community. Also think in terms of increasing the size of the Perl _User_ Community by enabling quality Mac apps to be implemented in/with perl. Tim.
Re: Speaking of support for Camel Bones
Sherm Pendley wrote: On May 8, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Bruce Van Allen wrote: I think we can confidently answer the Benefits to the Perl Community issue. That's my biggest concern. CB is mostly of use to the subset of the community who are using Macs, and need to write GUI apps. My concern is whether that's a big enough subset to warrant a grant. They've sponsored some projects with *very* small audiences in the past, such as pVoice. I'm sure that Camelbones's audience outweighs pVoice's by at least a couple of orders of magnitude - although helping trendy Mac users is less press-worthy than helping disabled people. -- David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age More people are driven insane through religious hysteria than by drinking alcohol.-- W C Fields
