Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

['Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries]

To paraphrase, iOS 8.1 is the most inextricably inaccessible OS on the 
market today, except for all the other ones.


CB

On 10/25/14, 6:32 PM, Jose Lomeli wrote:

Drops in performance should not be rewarded, especially when they have done 
better in earlier IOS releases.

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 12:56, The Believer  wrote:

  My take on this is this. Tim mentioned 'reasonable expectations'. Not only do 
we need to keep our expectations to a level that is not UNreasonable, it also 
means that when we encounter issues, we also keep them to a reasonable level 
when seeking help. Expressing displeasure is reasonable if its balanced with 
respect.

  If you had looked for a solution to the low quality of speech from the get 
go, the outcome would have been much different and you probably would not have 
reached the point you did and canceled your order. But its perfectly ok to do 
that and go with another company. Its a free market.

  I went from 7.1.2 to 8.1 and am perfectly happy with it. So far the only 
problem I have is Siri but that has little impact on my iPhone 5's usability. 
In a perfect world we would have zero issues with accessibility but then, in a 
perfect world, we would not need accessibility.

 From The Believer. . .
. . . what if it were true?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com


On 10/25/2014 12:06 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
Got the voice enhancements now and this helped.

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 11:19, Tim Kilburn  wrote:

Hi Cheri and All,

In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
the voices that you've expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting back 
to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal behaviour 
during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of your 
preferred voice, you'll find the quality is as good or better than it was in 
iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General Accessibility, 
VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices is the same as it 
was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in the Rotor, which is 
also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  Regarding the descriptions 
of Wallpaper etc, I didn't notice this and it is disappointing from an 
accessibility point of view.

Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple's commitment to accessibility, 
over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don't go 
very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to 
our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things 
were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right 
away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In future 
Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she originally 
received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.While our desires 
for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in an update is fair, 
it's not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any OS, be it iOS, MacOS, 
Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent interaction between 
processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks another.  Sometimes it 
takes a bit of work by the software engineers to figure out how

to make certain things work properly together.  Even with beta-testers galore, 
not every glitch is found out prior to release.  This sort of thing happens 
whether it's an accessibility feature or just a regular part of the user 
experience.

For example, tearing into Apple about them changing the look and feel of iTunes 
and claiming that they have broken accessibility is an inaccurate statement.  
The actual accessibility of iTunes hasn't changed at all, what has changed is 
how we access the various features.  How easy it is for you to manage the 
changes is not a factor of accessibility, it may be a level of comfort or ease 
of use factor, but accessibility in the manner that VO users use the term has 
to do with elements being visible and/or usable.  The device accessibility 
market is by no means particularly mature at this point in time, so, I'd 
venture to say that any device we put in our hands will have good and bad with 
respect to accessibility.  Android this, Windows that, Apple thing-a-ma-bobber 
and whoever's talking which-a-macall-it all work to some respect but have 
limitations and/or frustrations.  No point in dissing Apple, Google or windows 
for that matter, it's unproductive.

So, after all this, I guess what I'm saying is continue submitting bug reports 
and feature requests, and, expect for them to be addressed but be reasonable.
bug reports should be clear, expressing the facts of the issue, outlining how 
and where it occurs, certainly they can include how it affects your 
productivity but exaggeration and accusation need not be a part.  Progress is 
occurring, will continue to occur and is necessary.

That's my rant 

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[BobH.]

I have to agree with you here.  Poor Nicky was having a hard time with it 
and frustration leads to anger and anger can lead into rash or less than 
rational statements;  we all do it, sometimes.  Swearing is all about 
irrational and meaningless statements;  bet there's a good many here do a 
good bit of that, too.

Yes, Me too.

I empathise with her, I take 'puter issues rather badly as well.

So,  all the advice and solutions gratefully received.  Flack don't help 
anybody any more than ranting about the problems.

R, thinks so.

- Original Message - 
From: "Karen Lewellen" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S


Perhaps the problem begins by assuming that  there is such  a thing as
"the
blind," uniformly using choosing and personifying a single individual.
There will be people who find the upgrade very wonderful for them, there
will be, are clearly, individuals who do not.
that has zero to do with blindness and 100% to do with individuality.  A
fine thing thank you very much, its what makes  us  human and uniquely
interesting at a party.
I have a slightly silly but very sincere question...perhaps best addressed
to Sir. Tim off list.
Consider it to be rhetorical.
If you have a device that meets most of our needs, allowing you to compute
as you desire, why would you decide to upgrade to something that might not
meet your needs in the same way? and without being sure in advance you
will not lose ground?   Especially since, as I understand it,
downgrades are well rather a challenge?
I am forthright about my alternative dictionary.  still because I prefer a
steady reliable and firm tool...say like a hammer or screwdriver, I do not
personally decide I need to change my entire computer foundation unless
there are things I can no longer do with that foundation.
Speaking  only for myself, which frankly goes for humans in general, I
find this a more practical way to keep things on target professionally.
The so called the blind should take what they are handed concept refers to
a nonexistent hypothetical entity that is totally interchangeable...at last
count having 400 million pairs of feet.  if that
does not sound like you, make your own computer choices.
Just my far from the insider take,
Kare


On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Cheree Heppe wrote:

> What happens if we can't use more and more while sending fix requests? 
> Didn't someone say a while back that the blind aren't a buying majority 
> and should gratefully accept what we are handed?
>
> Sent from my IPhone 4S
>
> On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:03, Shawn Krasniuk  wrote:
>
> Hi. Well said Tim. Nothing good will come if we're not reasonable. For 
> example, when I received the first public beta of Yosemite, for some 
> reason Text Edit wouldn't open any files ending with the .docx extension. 
> I immediately launched the Feedback Assistant app and reported this bug to 
> Apple. Another bug that was present in the beta, and I don't know if it's 
> still present today, is when clicking the lock to make changes in the 
> security tab to allow apps to open that haven't been downloaded from the 
> App Store, my choice was ignored after the fact I made the change. If that 
> bug is still present today, I won't be sitting here moaning to you guys 
> that it's still present and basically bashing Apple because let's face it, 
> that would be a waste of mine and your time, and might make some people 
> laugh or maybe angry. Instead, I'll be sending an email to Apple or if we 
> can still use it even though this isn't a beta, I'll use the Feedback 
> Assistant to report the bug.
> Another point that Tim made is about Apple's commitment to accessibility. 
> I don't think that it has slid at all. In my 4 years that I've used Apple 
> products, (4 years on November 3rd), I find accessibility about the same 
> or a bit better. First I bought this MacBook, then the iPod Nanno, then 
> the iTouch 4, the iPhone 4, 4S, and now 5S. All these devices have done 
> pretty much all I've wanted them to do. And guess what. My next computer 
> if this white MacBook goes down the crapper or if Yosemite will be the 
> last operating system I can upgrade to will probably be a MacBook Air 
> because I know Apple products can get what I need to be accomplished done. 
> And also like I said in a previous thread, PC's and I don't get along. :)
>
> Shawn
> Sent From My White MacBook
>
>> On Oct 25, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Pamela Francis  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tim,
>> Your position is fair. I don't disagree, other thanThe complaints being 
>> registered   within bothIOS and Yosemite concern the apps that are 
>> shipped on each  respective product. Do we not ha

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[christopher hallsworth]

Yes iOS 8.1 is a one way trip and no it is no longer possible to downgrade to 
7.1.2 afterwards.



> On 26 Oct 2014, at 03:40, venky...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> So, if im correct, The upgrade to 8.1 (if i do it) will be a one way trip?
> Is there any way to downgrade back to 7.1.2?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 26-Oct-2014, at 7:10 am, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
>> 
>> oh sure it does far more than generalizations and projective stereotyping.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> 
>>> Situational thinking doesn't build bridges.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S
>>> 
>>> On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:50, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Perhaps the problem begins by assuming that  there is such  a thing as "the 
>>> blind," uniformly using choosing and personifying a single individual.
>>> There will be people who find the upgrade very wonderful for them, there 
>>> will be, are clearly, individuals who do not.
>>> that has zero to do with blindness and 100% to do with individuality.  A 
>>> fine thing thank you very much, its what makes  us  human and uniquely 
>>> interesting at a party.
>>> I have a slightly silly but very sincere question...perhaps best addressed 
>>> to Sir. Tim off list.
>>> Consider it to be rhetorical.
>>> If you have a device that meets most of our needs, allowing you to compute 
>>> as you desire, why would you decide to upgrade to something that might not 
>>> meet your needs in the same way? and without being sure in advance you will 
>>> not lose ground?   Especially since, as I understand it, downgrades are 
>>> well rather a challenge?
>>> I am forthright about my alternative dictionary.  still because I prefer a 
>>> steady reliable and firm tool...say like a hammer or screwdriver, I do not 
>>> personally decide I need to change my entire computer foundation unless 
>>> there are things I can no longer do with that foundation.
>>> Speaking  only for myself, which frankly goes for humans in general, I find 
>>> this a more practical way to keep things on target professionally.
>>> The so called the blind should take what they are handed concept refers to 
>>> a nonexistent hypothetical entity that is totally interchangeable...at last 
>>> count having 400 million pairs of feet.  if that does not sound like you, 
>>> make your own computer choices.
>>> Just my far from the insider take,
>>> Kare
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 
 What happens if we can't use more and more while sending fix requests?  
 Didn't someone say a while back that the blind aren't a buying majority 
 and should gratefully accept what we are handed?
 
 Sent from my IPhone 4S
 
 On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:03, Shawn Krasniuk  wrote:
 
 Hi. Well said Tim. Nothing good will come if we're not reasonable. For 
 example, when I received the first public beta of Yosemite, for some 
 reason Text Edit wouldn't open any files ending with the .docx extension. 
 I immediately launched the Feedback Assistant app and reported this bug to 
 Apple. Another bug that was present in the beta, and I don't know if it's 
 still present today, is when clicking the lock to make changes in the 
 security tab to allow apps to open that haven't been downloaded from the 
 App Store, my choice was ignored after the fact I made the change. If that 
 bug is still present today, I won't be sitting here moaning to you guys 
 that it's still present and basically bashing Apple because let's face it, 
 that would be a waste of mine and your time, and might make some people 
 laugh or maybe angry. Instead, I'll be sending an email to Apple or if we 
 can still use it even though this isn't a beta, I'll use the Feedback 
 Assistant to report the bug.
 Another point that Tim made is about Apple's commitment to accessibility. 
 I don't think that it has slid at all. In my 4 years that I've used Apple 
 products, (4 years on November 3rd), I find accessibility about the same 
 or a bit better. First I bought this MacBook, then the iPod Nanno, then 
 the iTouch 4, the iPhone 4, 4S, and now 5S. All these devices have done 
 pretty much all I've wanted them to do. And guess what. My next computer 
 if this white MacBook goes down the crapper or if Yosemite will be the 
 last operating system I can upgrade to will probably be a MacBook Air 
 because I know Apple products can get what I need to be accomplished done. 
 And also like I said in a previous thread, PC's and I don't get along. :)
 
 Shawn
 Sent From My White MacBook
 
> On Oct 25, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Pamela Francis  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Tim,
> Your position is fair. I don't disagree, other thanThe complaints being 
> registered   within bothIOS and Yosemite concern the apps that are 
> shipped on each  respective product. Do we not have reasonable 
> expectation for the same accessib

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

In response to Pam’s question from way back in this thread, you’re absolutely 
correct in that there should be a reasonable expectation for accessibility 
within Apple’s stock apps.  Apple has been put to task for this in the past 
prior to iTunes becoming accessible and, with respect to their iWorks apps.  
Huge improvements have been made, but, expressing dissatisfaction with 
accessibility elements being broken, or, desire for improvements to 
accessibility is perfectly fine and reasonable, in my opinion.  The manner in 
which these issues are addressed and communicated is what often concerns me, 
but, again, these are my opinions.

In response to Karen, I can only answer from my own prospective.  In the case 
of iOS 8 and Yosemite, there were some really exciting new features that I felt 
would be useful to me and thus wanted to use in my day to day activities.  
Also, my role and position require me to be current with technology related 
hardware and software.  I’m usually quite adept at tech related things as well, 
so working around the issues or possibly needing to downgrade is not usually a 
problem for me.

Later…

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 4:50 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> 
> Perhaps the problem begins by assuming that  there is such  a thing as "the 
> blind," uniformly using choosing and personifying a single individual.
> There will be people who find the upgrade very wonderful for them, there will 
> be, are clearly, individuals who do not.
> that has zero to do with blindness and 100% to do with individuality.  A fine 
> thing thank you very much, its what makes  us  human and uniquely interesting 
> at a party.
> I have a slightly silly but very sincere question...perhaps best addressed to 
> Sir. Tim off list.
> Consider it to be rhetorical.
> If you have a device that meets most of our needs, allowing you to compute as 
> you desire, why would you decide to upgrade to something that might not meet 
> your needs in the same way? and without being sure in advance you will not 
> lose ground?   Especially since, as I understand it, downgrades are well 
> rather a challenge?
> I am forthright about my alternative dictionary.  still because I prefer a 
> steady reliable and firm tool...say like a hammer or screwdriver, I do not 
> personally decide I need to change my entire computer foundation unless there 
> are things I can no longer do with that foundation.
> Speaking  only for myself, which frankly goes for humans in general, I find 
> this a more practical way to keep things on target professionally.
> The so called the blind should take what they are handed concept refers to a 
> nonexistent hypothetical entity that is totally interchangeable...at last 
> count having 400 million pairs of feet.  if that does not sound like you, 
> make your own computer choices.
> Just my far from the insider take,
> Kare
> 
> 
> On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> 
>> What happens if we can't use more and more while sending fix requests?  
>> Didn't someone say a while back that the blind aren't a buying majority and 
>> should gratefully accept what we are handed?
>> 
>> Sent from my IPhone 4S
>> 
>> On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:03, Shawn Krasniuk  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi. Well said Tim. Nothing good will come if we're not reasonable. For 
>> example, when I received the first public beta of Yosemite, for some reason 
>> Text Edit wouldn't open any files ending with the .docx extension. I 
>> immediately launched the Feedback Assistant app and reported this bug to 
>> Apple. Another bug that was present in the beta, and I don't know if it's 
>> still present today, is when clicking the lock to make changes in the 
>> security tab to allow apps to open that haven't been downloaded from the App 
>> Store, my choice was ignored after the fact I made the change. If that bug 
>> is still present today, I won't be sitting here moaning to you guys that 
>> it's still present and basically bashing Apple because let's face it, that 
>> would be a waste of mine and your time, and might make some people laugh or 
>> maybe angry. Instead, I'll be sending an email to Apple or if we can still 
>> use it even though this isn't a beta, I'll use the Feedback Assistant to 
>> report the bug.
>> Another point that Tim made is about Apple's commitment to accessibility. I 
>> don't think that it has slid at all. In my 4 years that I've used Apple 
>> products, (4 years on November 3rd), I find accessibility about the same or 
>> a bit better. First I bought this MacBook, then the iPod Nanno, then the 
>> iTouch 4, the iPhone 4, 4S, and now 5S. All these devices have done pretty 
>> much all I've wanted them to do. And guess what. My next computer if this 
>> white MacBook goes down the crapper or if Yosemite will be the last 
>> operating system I can upgrade to will probably be a MacBook Air because I 
>> know Apple products can get what I need to be accomplished done. And also 
>> like I

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[venky . 92]

So, if im correct, The upgrade to 8.1 (if i do it) will be a one way trip?
Is there any way to downgrade back to 7.1.2?


Sent from my iPhone

> On 26-Oct-2014, at 7:10 am, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> 
> oh sure it does far more than generalizations and projective stereotyping.
> 
> 
>> On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> 
>> Situational thinking doesn't build bridges.
>> 
>> Sent from my IPhone 4S
>> 
>> On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:50, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
>> 
>> Perhaps the problem begins by assuming that  there is such  a thing as "the 
>> blind," uniformly using choosing and personifying a single individual.
>> There will be people who find the upgrade very wonderful for them, there 
>> will be, are clearly, individuals who do not.
>> that has zero to do with blindness and 100% to do with individuality.  A 
>> fine thing thank you very much, its what makes  us  human and uniquely 
>> interesting at a party.
>> I have a slightly silly but very sincere question...perhaps best addressed 
>> to Sir. Tim off list.
>> Consider it to be rhetorical.
>> If you have a device that meets most of our needs, allowing you to compute 
>> as you desire, why would you decide to upgrade to something that might not 
>> meet your needs in the same way? and without being sure in advance you will 
>> not lose ground?   Especially since, as I understand it, downgrades are well 
>> rather a challenge?
>> I am forthright about my alternative dictionary.  still because I prefer a 
>> steady reliable and firm tool...say like a hammer or screwdriver, I do not 
>> personally decide I need to change my entire computer foundation unless 
>> there are things I can no longer do with that foundation.
>> Speaking  only for myself, which frankly goes for humans in general, I find 
>> this a more practical way to keep things on target professionally.
>> The so called the blind should take what they are handed concept refers to a 
>> nonexistent hypothetical entity that is totally interchangeable...at last 
>> count having 400 million pairs of feet.  if that does not sound like you, 
>> make your own computer choices.
>> Just my far from the insider take,
>> Kare
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> 
>>> What happens if we can't use more and more while sending fix requests?  
>>> Didn't someone say a while back that the blind aren't a buying majority and 
>>> should gratefully accept what we are handed?
>>> 
>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S
>>> 
>>> On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:03, Shawn Krasniuk  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi. Well said Tim. Nothing good will come if we're not reasonable. For 
>>> example, when I received the first public beta of Yosemite, for some reason 
>>> Text Edit wouldn't open any files ending with the .docx extension. I 
>>> immediately launched the Feedback Assistant app and reported this bug to 
>>> Apple. Another bug that was present in the beta, and I don't know if it's 
>>> still present today, is when clicking the lock to make changes in the 
>>> security tab to allow apps to open that haven't been downloaded from the 
>>> App Store, my choice was ignored after the fact I made the change. If that 
>>> bug is still present today, I won't be sitting here moaning to you guys 
>>> that it's still present and basically bashing Apple because let's face it, 
>>> that would be a waste of mine and your time, and might make some people 
>>> laugh or maybe angry. Instead, I'll be sending an email to Apple or if we 
>>> can still use it even though this isn't a beta, I'll use the Feedback 
>>> Assistant to report the bug.
>>> Another point that Tim made is about Apple's commitment to accessibility. I 
>>> don't think that it has slid at all. In my 4 years that I've used Apple 
>>> products, (4 years on November 3rd), I find accessibility about the same or 
>>> a bit better. First I bought this MacBook, then the iPod Nanno, then the 
>>> iTouch 4, the iPhone 4, 4S, and now 5S. All these devices have done pretty 
>>> much all I've wanted them to do. And guess what. My next computer if this 
>>> white MacBook goes down the crapper or if Yosemite will be the last 
>>> operating system I can upgrade to will probably be a MacBook Air because I 
>>> know Apple products can get what I need to be accomplished done. And also 
>>> like I said in a previous thread, PC's and I don't get along. :)
>>> 
>>> Shawn
>>> Sent From My White MacBook
>>> 
 On Oct 25, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Pamela Francis  wrote:
 
 Hi Tim,
 Your position is fair. I don't disagree, other thanThe complaints being 
 registered   within bothIOS and Yosemite concern the apps that are shipped 
 on each  respective product. Do we not have reasonable expectation for 
 the same accessibility for the stock apps included within Apple OS be it 
 OS 10 or iOS eight?  That's my only question. Thanks much
 
 Pam Francis
 
 On Oct 25, 2014, at 1:19 PM, Tim Kilburn  wrote:
 
 Hi Cheri and All,
 
 In my opinion, you h

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Karen Lewellen]

oh sure it does far more than generalizations and projective stereotyping.


On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Cheree Heppe wrote:


Situational thinking doesn't build bridges.

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:50, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

Perhaps the problem begins by assuming that  there is such  a thing as "the 
blind," uniformly using choosing and personifying a single individual.
There will be people who find the upgrade very wonderful for them, there will 
be, are clearly, individuals who do not.
that has zero to do with blindness and 100% to do with individuality.  A fine 
thing thank you very much, its what makes  us  human and uniquely interesting 
at a party.
I have a slightly silly but very sincere question...perhaps best addressed to 
Sir. Tim off list.
Consider it to be rhetorical.
If you have a device that meets most of our needs, allowing you to compute as 
you desire, why would you decide to upgrade to something that might not meet 
your needs in the same way? and without being sure in advance you will not lose 
ground?   Especially since, as I understand it, downgrades are well rather a 
challenge?
I am forthright about my alternative dictionary.  still because I prefer a 
steady reliable and firm tool...say like a hammer or screwdriver, I do not 
personally decide I need to change my entire computer foundation unless there 
are things I can no longer do with that foundation.
Speaking  only for myself, which frankly goes for humans in general, I find 
this a more practical way to keep things on target professionally.
The so called the blind should take what they are handed concept refers to a 
nonexistent hypothetical entity that is totally interchangeable...at last count 
having 400 million pairs of feet.  if that does not sound like you, make your 
own computer choices.
Just my far from the insider take,
Kare



On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Cheree Heppe wrote:

What happens if we can't use more and more while sending fix requests?  Didn't 
someone say a while back that the blind aren't a buying majority and should 
gratefully accept what we are handed?

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:03, Shawn Krasniuk  wrote:

Hi. Well said Tim. Nothing good will come if we're not reasonable. For example, 
when I received the first public beta of Yosemite, for some reason Text Edit 
wouldn't open any files ending with the .docx extension. I immediately launched 
the Feedback Assistant app and reported this bug to Apple. Another bug that was 
present in the beta, and I don't know if it's still present today, is when 
clicking the lock to make changes in the security tab to allow apps to open 
that haven't been downloaded from the App Store, my choice was ignored after 
the fact I made the change. If that bug is still present today, I won't be 
sitting here moaning to you guys that it's still present and basically bashing 
Apple because let's face it, that would be a waste of mine and your time, and 
might make some people laugh or maybe angry. Instead, I'll be sending an email 
to Apple or if we can still use it even though this isn't a beta, I'll use the 
Feedback Assistant to report the bug.
Another point that Tim made is about Apple's commitment to accessibility. I 
don't think that it has slid at all. In my 4 years that I've used Apple 
products, (4 years on November 3rd), I find accessibility about the same or a 
bit better. First I bought this MacBook, then the iPod Nanno, then the iTouch 
4, the iPhone 4, 4S, and now 5S. All these devices have done pretty much all 
I've wanted them to do. And guess what. My next computer if this white MacBook 
goes down the crapper or if Yosemite will be the last operating system I can 
upgrade to will probably be a MacBook Air because I know Apple products can get 
what I need to be accomplished done. And also like I said in a previous thread, 
PC's and I don't get along. :)

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook


On Oct 25, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Pamela Francis  wrote:

Hi Tim,
Your position is fair. I don't disagree, other thanThe complaints being 
registered   within bothIOS and Yosemite concern the apps that are shipped on 
each  respective product. Do we not have reasonable expectation for the 
same accessibility for the stock apps included within Apple OS be it OS 10 or 
iOS eight?  That's my only question. Thanks much

Pam Francis

On Oct 25, 2014, at 1:19 PM, Tim Kilburn  wrote:

Hi Cheri and All,

In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
the voices that you’ve expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting back 
to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal behaviour 
during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of your 
preferred voice, you’ll find the quality is as good or better than it was in 
iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General Accessibility, 
VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices is the same as it 
was in iOS 7 when yo

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Cheree Heppe]

Situational thinking doesn't build bridges.

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:50, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

Perhaps the problem begins by assuming that  there is such  a thing as "the 
blind," uniformly using choosing and personifying a single individual.
There will be people who find the upgrade very wonderful for them, there will 
be, are clearly, individuals who do not.
that has zero to do with blindness and 100% to do with individuality.  A fine 
thing thank you very much, its what makes  us  human and uniquely interesting 
at a party.
I have a slightly silly but very sincere question...perhaps best addressed to 
Sir. Tim off list.
Consider it to be rhetorical.
If you have a device that meets most of our needs, allowing you to compute as 
you desire, why would you decide to upgrade to something that might not meet 
your needs in the same way? and without being sure in advance you will not lose 
ground?   Especially since, as I understand it, downgrades are well rather a 
challenge?
I am forthright about my alternative dictionary.  still because I prefer a 
steady reliable and firm tool...say like a hammer or screwdriver, I do not 
personally decide I need to change my entire computer foundation unless there 
are things I can no longer do with that foundation.
Speaking  only for myself, which frankly goes for humans in general, I find 
this a more practical way to keep things on target professionally.
The so called the blind should take what they are handed concept refers to a 
nonexistent hypothetical entity that is totally interchangeable...at last count 
having 400 million pairs of feet.  if that does not sound like you, make your 
own computer choices.
Just my far from the insider take,
Kare


> On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> 
> What happens if we can't use more and more while sending fix requests?  
> Didn't someone say a while back that the blind aren't a buying majority and 
> should gratefully accept what we are handed?
> 
> Sent from my IPhone 4S
> 
> On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:03, Shawn Krasniuk  wrote:
> 
> Hi. Well said Tim. Nothing good will come if we're not reasonable. For 
> example, when I received the first public beta of Yosemite, for some reason 
> Text Edit wouldn't open any files ending with the .docx extension. I 
> immediately launched the Feedback Assistant app and reported this bug to 
> Apple. Another bug that was present in the beta, and I don't know if it's 
> still present today, is when clicking the lock to make changes in the 
> security tab to allow apps to open that haven't been downloaded from the App 
> Store, my choice was ignored after the fact I made the change. If that bug is 
> still present today, I won't be sitting here moaning to you guys that it's 
> still present and basically bashing Apple because let's face it, that would 
> be a waste of mine and your time, and might make some people laugh or maybe 
> angry. Instead, I'll be sending an email to Apple or if we can still use it 
> even though this isn't a beta, I'll use the Feedback Assistant to report the 
> bug.
> Another point that Tim made is about Apple's commitment to accessibility. I 
> don't think that it has slid at all. In my 4 years that I've used Apple 
> products, (4 years on November 3rd), I find accessibility about the same or a 
> bit better. First I bought this MacBook, then the iPod Nanno, then the iTouch 
> 4, the iPhone 4, 4S, and now 5S. All these devices have done pretty much all 
> I've wanted them to do. And guess what. My next computer if this white 
> MacBook goes down the crapper or if Yosemite will be the last operating 
> system I can upgrade to will probably be a MacBook Air because I know Apple 
> products can get what I need to be accomplished done. And also like I said in 
> a previous thread, PC's and I don't get along. :)
> 
> Shawn
> Sent From My White MacBook
> 
>> On Oct 25, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Pamela Francis  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Tim,
>> Your position is fair. I don't disagree, other thanThe complaints being 
>> registered   within bothIOS and Yosemite concern the apps that are shipped 
>> on each  respective product. Do we not have reasonable expectation for 
>> the same accessibility for the stock apps included within Apple OS be it OS 
>> 10 or iOS eight?  That's my only question. Thanks much
>> 
>> Pam Francis
>> 
>> On Oct 25, 2014, at 1:19 PM, Tim Kilburn  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Cheri and All,
>> 
>> In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality 
>> of the voices that you’ve expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting 
>> back to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal 
>> behaviour during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version 
>> of your preferred voice, you’ll find the quality is as good or better than 
>> it was in iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General 
>> Accessibility, VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices 
>> is the same as 

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Karen Lewellen]

Perhaps the problem begins by assuming that  there is such  a thing as 
"the 
blind," uniformly using choosing and personifying a single individual.
There will be people who find the upgrade very wonderful for them, there 
will be, are clearly, individuals who do not.
that has zero to do with blindness and 100% to do with individuality.  A 
fine thing thank you very much, its what makes  us  human and uniquely 
interesting at a party.
I have a slightly silly but very sincere question...perhaps best addressed 
to Sir. Tim off list.

Consider it to be rhetorical.
If you have a device that meets most of our needs, allowing you to compute 
as you desire, why would you decide to upgrade to something that might not 
meet your needs in the same way? and without being sure in advance you 
will not lose ground?   Especially since, as I understand it, 
downgrades are well rather a challenge?
I am forthright about my alternative dictionary.  still because I prefer a 
steady reliable and firm tool...say like a hammer or screwdriver, I do not 
personally decide I need to change my entire computer foundation unless 
there are things I can no longer do with that foundation.
Speaking  only for myself, which frankly goes for humans in general, I 
find this a more practical way to keep things on target professionally.
The so called the blind should take what they are handed concept refers to 
a nonexistent hypothetical entity that is totally interchangeable...at last 
count having 400 million pairs of feet.  if that 
does not sound like you, make your own computer choices.

Just my far from the insider take,
Kare


On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Cheree Heppe wrote:


What happens if we can't use more and more while sending fix requests?  Didn't 
someone say a while back that the blind aren't a buying majority and should 
gratefully accept what we are handed?

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:03, Shawn Krasniuk  wrote:

Hi. Well said Tim. Nothing good will come if we're not reasonable. For example, 
when I received the first public beta of Yosemite, for some reason Text Edit 
wouldn't open any files ending with the .docx extension. I immediately launched 
the Feedback Assistant app and reported this bug to Apple. Another bug that was 
present in the beta, and I don't know if it's still present today, is when 
clicking the lock to make changes in the security tab to allow apps to open 
that haven't been downloaded from the App Store, my choice was ignored after 
the fact I made the change. If that bug is still present today, I won't be 
sitting here moaning to you guys that it's still present and basically bashing 
Apple because let's face it, that would be a waste of mine and your time, and 
might make some people laugh or maybe angry. Instead, I'll be sending an email 
to Apple or if we can still use it even though this isn't a beta, I'll use the 
Feedback Assistant to report the bug.
Another point that Tim made is about Apple's commitment to accessibility. I 
don't think that it has slid at all. In my 4 years that I've used Apple 
products, (4 years on November 3rd), I find accessibility about the same or a 
bit better. First I bought this MacBook, then the iPod Nanno, then the iTouch 
4, the iPhone 4, 4S, and now 5S. All these devices have done pretty much all 
I've wanted them to do. And guess what. My next computer if this white MacBook 
goes down the crapper or if Yosemite will be the last operating system I can 
upgrade to will probably be a MacBook Air because I know Apple products can get 
what I need to be accomplished done. And also like I said in a previous thread, 
PC's and I don't get along. :)

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook


On Oct 25, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Pamela Francis  wrote:

Hi Tim,
Your position is fair. I don't disagree, other thanThe complaints being 
registered   within bothIOS and Yosemite concern the apps that are shipped on 
each  respective product. Do we not have reasonable expectation for the 
same accessibility for the stock apps included within Apple OS be it OS 10 or 
iOS eight?  That's my only question. Thanks much

Pam Francis

On Oct 25, 2014, at 1:19 PM, Tim Kilburn  wrote:

Hi Cheri and All,

In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
the voices that you’ve expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting back 
to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal behaviour 
during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of your 
preferred voice, you’ll find the quality is as good or better than it was in 
iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General Accessibility, 
VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices is the same as it 
was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in the Rotor, which is 
also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  Regarding the descriptions 
of Wallpaper etc, I didn’t notice this and it is disappointing from an 
accessibility point of v

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[The Believer]

   Whatever did blind people do in the Dark Ages, before accessibility 
became part of the language? As long as you have owned Apple products, 
have you ever had a product with zero defects in hardware, software, 
accessibility features?


From The Believer. . .
 . . . what if it were true?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 10/25/2014 3:16 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

What happens if we can't use more and more while sending fix requests?  Didn't 
someone say a while back that the blind aren't a buying majority and should 
gratefully accept what we are handed?

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:03, Shawn Krasniuk  wrote:

Hi. Well said Tim. Nothing good will come if we're not reasonable. For example, 
when I received the first public beta of Yosemite, for some reason Text Edit 
wouldn't open any files ending with the .docx extension. I immediately launched 
the Feedback Assistant app and reported this bug to Apple. Another bug that was 
present in the beta, and I don't know if it's still present today, is when 
clicking the lock to make changes in the security tab to allow apps to open 
that haven't been downloaded from the App Store, my choice was ignored after 
the fact I made the change. If that bug is still present today, I won't be 
sitting here moaning to you guys that it's still present and basically bashing 
Apple because let's face it, that would be a waste of mine and your time, and 
might make some people laugh or maybe angry. Instead, I'll be sending an email 
to Apple or if we can still use it even though this isn't a beta, I'll use the 
Feedback Assistant to report the bug.
Another point that Tim made is about Apple's commitment to accessibility. I 
don't think that it has slid at all. In my 4 years that I've used Apple 
products, (4 years on November 3rd), I find accessibility about the same or a 
bit better. First I bought this MacBook, then the iPod Nanno, then the iTouch 
4, the iPhone 4, 4S, and now 5S. All these devices have done pretty much all 
I've wanted them to do. And guess what. My next computer if this white MacBook 
goes down the crapper or if Yosemite will be the last operating system I can 
upgrade to will probably be a MacBook Air because I know Apple products can get 
what I need to be accomplished done. And also like I said in a previous thread, 
PC's and I don't get along. :)

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook


On Oct 25, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Pamela Francis  wrote:

Hi Tim,
Your position is fair. I don't disagree, other thanThe complaints being 
registered   within bothIOS and Yosemite concern the apps that are shipped on 
each  respective product. Do we not have reasonable expectation for the 
same accessibility for the stock apps included within Apple OS be it OS 10 or 
iOS eight?  That's my only question. Thanks much

Pam Francis

On Oct 25, 2014, at 1:19 PM, Tim Kilburn  wrote:

Hi Cheri and All,

In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
the voices that you've expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting back 
to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal behaviour 
during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of your 
preferred voice, you'll find the quality is as good or better than it was in 
iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General Accessibility, 
VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices is the same as it 
was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in the Rotor, which is 
also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  Regarding the descriptions 
of Wallpaper etc, I didn't notice this and it is disappointing from an 
accessibility point of view.

Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple's commitment to accessibility, 
over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don't go 
very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to 
our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things 
were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right 
away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In future 
Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she originally 
received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.While our desires 
for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in an update is fair, 
it's not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any OS, be it iOS, MacOS, 
Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent interaction between 
processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks another.  Sometimes it 
takes a bit of work by the software engineers to figure out how

to make certain things work properly together.  Even with beta-testers galore, 
not every glitch is found out prior to release.  This sort of thing happens 
whether it's an accessibility feature or just a regular part of the user 
experience.


For example, tearing into Apple about them cha

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[John Panarese]

   What I find interesting is this notion that we are rewarding or punishing a 
company, as if it makes a major difference.  The difference is actually five 
years ago, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.  The fact we even have 
access to a touch interface and we've come so far without having to pay 
anything extra for it is still something that amazes me.

  Also, in six months, the vast majority of the bugs in iOS 8 will be gone 
and this whole discussion will be forgotten until people can complain about the 
next upgrade.  In reality, Microsoft, Google or any other company are no 
different and I find it amusing that they re being seen as a better 
alternative.  At least the iPhone 4S can even run iOS 8.  New versions of 
Android aren't even supported on phones less than six months old, which is 
probably why only 11 percent of Android users actually are running the latest 
version of Android and while so may people are jumping from the Android 
ecosystem to iOS.  Stability and continuity make a big deal if you plan to hold 
on to a phone for two years and still want to use the latest software.  But, 
there are options and choices, and that's what makes technology progress 
further for us all.



Take Care

John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com

APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain 
Lion

AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE

MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT




> On Oct 25, 2014, at 6:35 PM, The Believer  wrote:
> 
>   Rewarded? Oh, you mean, by buying more Apple goodies. I'd venture a guess 
> that Microsoft and Google would suffer the same. Maybe not? Perhaps they are 
> better?
> 
>   As I said before, I am running 8.1 and notice little difference. Maybe my 
> own expectations are too low.
> 
> From The Believer. . .
> . . . what if it were true?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> On 10/25/2014 3:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> Drops in performance should not be rewarded, especially when they have done 
>> better in earlier IOS releases.
>> 
>> Sent from my IPhone 4S
>> 
>> On 25 Oct 2014, at 12:56, The Believer  wrote:
>> 
>>   My take on this is this. Tim mentioned 'reasonable expectations'. Not only 
>> do we need to keep our expectations to a level that is not UNreasonable, it 
>> also means that when we encounter issues, we also keep them to a reasonable 
>> level when seeking help. Expressing displeasure is reasonable if its 
>> balanced with respect.
>> 
>>   If you had looked for a solution to the low quality of speech from the get 
>> go, the outcome would have been much different and you probably would not 
>> have reached the point you did and canceled your order. But its perfectly ok 
>> to do that and go with another company. Its a free market.
>> 
>>   I went from 7.1.2 to 8.1 and am perfectly happy with it. So far the only 
>> problem I have is Siri but that has little impact on my iPhone 5's 
>> usability. In a perfect world we would have zero issues with accessibility 
>> but then, in a perfect world, we would not need accessibility.
>> 
>> From The Believer. . .
>> . . . what if it were true?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 10/25/2014 12:06 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> Got the voice enhancements now and this helped.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S
>>> 
>>> On 25 Oct 2014, at 11:19, Tim Kilburn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Cheri and All,
>>> 
>>> In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality 
>>> of the voices that you've expressed is likely due to your iDevice 
>>> defaulting back to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  
>>> Normal behaviour during the update process.  If you download the enhanced 
>>> version of your preferred voice, you'll find the quality is as good or 
>>> better than it was in iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, 
>>> General Accessibility, VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching 
>>> between voices is the same as it was in iOS 7 when your Language 
>>> preferences are included in the Rotor, which is also configured in the same 
>>> area outlined earlier.  Regarding the descriptions of Wallpaper etc, I 
>>> didn't notice this and it is disappointing from an accessibility point of 
>>> view.
>>> 
>>> Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple's commitment to accessibility, 
>>> over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don't 
>>> go very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work 
>>> Orders to our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room 
>>> that things were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance 
>>> came over right away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than 
>>> she liked.  In future Work Orders, she was not given near the priority 
>>> attention that she originally received due to her tendency for over-blowing 
>>> a situation.Whi

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[The Believer]

   Rewarded? Oh, you mean, by buying more Apple goodies. I'd venture a 
guess that Microsoft and Google would suffer the same. Maybe not? 
Perhaps they are better?


   As I said before, I am running 8.1 and notice little difference. 
Maybe my own expectations are too low.


From The Believer. . .
 . . . what if it were true?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 10/25/2014 3:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

Drops in performance should not be rewarded, especially when they have done 
better in earlier IOS releases.

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 12:56, The Believer  wrote:

   My take on this is this. Tim mentioned 'reasonable expectations'. Not only 
do we need to keep our expectations to a level that is not UNreasonable, it 
also means that when we encounter issues, we also keep them to a reasonable 
level when seeking help. Expressing displeasure is reasonable if its balanced 
with respect.

   If you had looked for a solution to the low quality of speech from the get 
go, the outcome would have been much different and you probably would not have 
reached the point you did and canceled your order. But its perfectly ok to do 
that and go with another company. Its a free market.

   I went from 7.1.2 to 8.1 and am perfectly happy with it. So far the only 
problem I have is Siri but that has little impact on my iPhone 5's usability. 
In a perfect world we would have zero issues with accessibility but then, in a 
perfect world, we would not need accessibility.

 From The Believer. . .
. . . what if it were true?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com


On 10/25/2014 12:06 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
Got the voice enhancements now and this helped.

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 11:19, Tim Kilburn  wrote:

Hi Cheri and All,

In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
the voices that you've expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting back 
to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal behaviour 
during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of your 
preferred voice, you'll find the quality is as good or better than it was in 
iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General Accessibility, 
VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices is the same as it 
was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in the Rotor, which is 
also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  Regarding the descriptions 
of Wallpaper etc, I didn't notice this and it is disappointing from an 
accessibility point of view.

Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple's commitment to accessibility, 
over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don't go 
very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to 
our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things 
were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right 
away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In future 
Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she originally 
received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.While our desires 
for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in an update is fair, 
it's not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any OS, be it iOS, MacOS, 
Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent interaction between 
processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks another.  Sometimes it 
takes a bit of work by the software engineers to figure out how



to make certain things work properly together.  Even with beta-testers galore, 
not every glitch is found out prior to release.  This sort of thing happens 
whether it's an accessibility feature or just a regular part of the user 
experience.


For example, tearing into Apple about them changing the look and feel of iTunes 
and claiming that they have broken accessibility is an inaccurate statement.  
The actual accessibility of iTunes hasn't changed at all, what has changed is 
how we access the various features.  How easy it is for you to manage the 
changes is not a factor of accessibility, it may be a level of comfort or ease 
of use factor, but accessibility in the manner that VO users use the term has 
to do with elements being visible and/or usable.  The device accessibility 
market is by no means particularly mature at this point in time, so, I'd 
venture to say that any device we put in our hands will have good and bad with 
respect to accessibility.  Android this, Windows that, Apple thing-a-ma-bobber 
and whoever's talking which-a-macall-it all work to some respect but have 
limitations and/or frustrations.  No point in dissing Apple, Google or windows 
for that matter, it's unproductive.

So, after all this, I guess what I'm saying is continue submitting bug reports 
and feature requests, and, expect for them to be addressed but be reasonable.
bug reports should be clear, expressing the facts of th

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Jose Lomeli]

Drops in performance should not be rewarded, especially when they have done 
better in earlier IOS releases.

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 12:56, The Believer  wrote:

 My take on this is this. Tim mentioned 'reasonable expectations'. Not only do 
we need to keep our expectations to a level that is not UNreasonable, it also 
means that when we encounter issues, we also keep them to a reasonable level 
when seeking help. Expressing displeasure is reasonable if its balanced with 
respect.

 If you had looked for a solution to the low quality of speech from the get go, 
the outcome would have been much different and you probably would not have 
reached the point you did and canceled your order. But its perfectly ok to do 
that and go with another company. Its a free market.

 I went from 7.1.2 to 8.1 and am perfectly happy with it. So far the only 
problem I have is Siri but that has little impact on my iPhone 5's usability. 
In a perfect world we would have zero issues with accessibility but then, in a 
perfect world, we would not need accessibility.

>From The Believer. . .
. . . what if it were true?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

> On 10/25/2014 12:06 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> Got the voice enhancements now and this helped.
> 
> Sent from my IPhone 4S
> 
> On 25 Oct 2014, at 11:19, Tim Kilburn  wrote:
> 
> Hi Cheri and All,
> 
> In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
> the voices that you've expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting 
> back to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal 
> behaviour during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of 
> your preferred voice, you'll find the quality is as good or better than it 
> was in iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General 
> Accessibility, VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices 
> is the same as it was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in 
> the Rotor, which is also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  
> Regarding the descriptions of Wallpaper etc, I didn't notice this and it is 
> disappointing from an accessibility point of view.
> 
> Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple's commitment to accessibility, 
> over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don't go 
> very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to 
> our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things 
> were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right 
> away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In 
> future Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she 
> originally received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.
> While our desires for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in 
> an update is fair, it's not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any 
> OS, be it iOS, MacOS, Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent 
> interaction between processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks 
> another.  Sometimes it takes a bit of work by the software engineers to 
> figure out how 
to make certain things work properly together.  Even with beta-testers galore, 
not every glitch is found out prior to release.  This sort of thing happens 
whether it's an accessibility feature or just a regular part of the user 
experience.
> 
> For example, tearing into Apple about them changing the look and feel of 
> iTunes and claiming that they have broken accessibility is an inaccurate 
> statement.  The actual accessibility of iTunes hasn't changed at all, what 
> has changed is how we access the various features.  How easy it is for you to 
> manage the changes is not a factor of accessibility, it may be a level of 
> comfort or ease of use factor, but accessibility in the manner that VO users 
> use the term has to do with elements being visible and/or usable.  The device 
> accessibility market is by no means particularly mature at this point in 
> time, so, I'd venture to say that any device we put in our hands will have 
> good and bad with respect to accessibility.  Android this, Windows that, 
> Apple thing-a-ma-bobber and whoever's talking which-a-macall-it all work to 
> some respect but have limitations and/or frustrations.  No point in dissing 
> Apple, Google or windows for that matter, it's unproductive.
> 
> So, after all this, I guess what I'm saying is continue submitting bug 
> reports and feature requests, and, expect for them to be addressed but be 
> reasonable.
> bug reports should be clear, expressing the facts of the issue, outlining how 
> and where it occurs, certainly they can include how it affects your 
> productivity but exaggeration and accusation need not be a part.  Progress is 
> occurring, will continue to occur and is necessary.
> 
> That's my rant for the week.  Have a good day all.
> 
> Later...

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Cheree Heppe]

What happens if we can't use more and more while sending fix requests?  Didn't 
someone say a while back that the blind aren't a buying majority and should 
gratefully accept what we are handed?

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 15:03, Shawn Krasniuk  wrote:

Hi. Well said Tim. Nothing good will come if we're not reasonable. For example, 
when I received the first public beta of Yosemite, for some reason Text Edit 
wouldn't open any files ending with the .docx extension. I immediately launched 
the Feedback Assistant app and reported this bug to Apple. Another bug that was 
present in the beta, and I don't know if it's still present today, is when 
clicking the lock to make changes in the security tab to allow apps to open 
that haven't been downloaded from the App Store, my choice was ignored after 
the fact I made the change. If that bug is still present today, I won't be 
sitting here moaning to you guys that it's still present and basically bashing 
Apple because let's face it, that would be a waste of mine and your time, and 
might make some people laugh or maybe angry. Instead, I'll be sending an email 
to Apple or if we can still use it even though this isn't a beta, I'll use the 
Feedback Assistant to report the bug.
Another point that Tim made is about Apple's commitment to accessibility. I 
don't think that it has slid at all. In my 4 years that I've used Apple 
products, (4 years on November 3rd), I find accessibility about the same or a 
bit better. First I bought this MacBook, then the iPod Nanno, then the iTouch 
4, the iPhone 4, 4S, and now 5S. All these devices have done pretty much all 
I've wanted them to do. And guess what. My next computer if this white MacBook 
goes down the crapper or if Yosemite will be the last operating system I can 
upgrade to will probably be a MacBook Air because I know Apple products can get 
what I need to be accomplished done. And also like I said in a previous thread, 
PC's and I don't get along. :)

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Pamela Francis  wrote:
> 
> Hi Tim,
> Your position is fair. I don't disagree, other thanThe complaints being 
> registered   within bothIOS and Yosemite concern the apps that are shipped on 
> each  respective product. Do we not have reasonable expectation for the 
> same accessibility for the stock apps included within Apple OS be it OS 10 or 
> iOS eight?  That's my only question. Thanks much
> 
> Pam Francis
> 
> On Oct 25, 2014, at 1:19 PM, Tim Kilburn  wrote:
> 
> Hi Cheri and All,
> 
> In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
> the voices that you’ve expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting 
> back to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal 
> behaviour during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of 
> your preferred voice, you’ll find the quality is as good or better than it 
> was in iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General 
> Accessibility, VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices 
> is the same as it was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in 
> the Rotor, which is also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  
> Regarding the descriptions of Wallpaper etc, I didn’t notice this and it is 
> disappointing from an accessibility point of view.
> 
> Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple’s commitment to accessibility, 
> over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don’t go 
> very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to 
> our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things 
> were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right 
> away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In 
> future Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she 
> originally received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.
> While our desires for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in 
> an update is fair, it’s not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any 
> OS, be it iOS, MacOS, Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent 
> interaction between processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks 
> another.  Sometimes it takes a bit of work by the software engineers to 
> figure out how to make certain things work properly together.  Even with 
> beta-testers galore, not every glitch is found out prior to release.  This 
> sort of thing happens whether it’s an accessibility feature or just a regular 
> part of the user experience.
> 
> For example, tearing into Apple about them changing the look and feel of 
> iTunes and claiming that they have broken accessibility is an inaccurate 
> statement.  The actual accessibility of iTunes hasn’t changed at all, what 
> has changed is how we access the various features.  How easy it is for you to 
> manage t

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Shawn Krasniuk]

Hi. Well said Tim. Nothing good will come if we're not reasonable. For example, 
when I received the first public beta of Yosemite, for some reason Text Edit 
wouldn't open any files ending with the .docx extension. I immediately launched 
the Feedback Assistant app and reported this bug to Apple. Another bug that was 
present in the beta, and I don't know if it's still present today, is when 
clicking the lock to make changes in the security tab to allow apps to open 
that haven't been downloaded from the App Store, my choice was ignored after 
the fact I made the change. If that bug is still present today, I won't be 
sitting here moaning to you guys that it's still present and basically bashing 
Apple because let's face it, that would be a waste of mine and your time, and 
might make some people laugh or maybe angry. Instead, I'll be sending an email 
to Apple or if we can still use it even though this isn't a beta, I'll use the 
Feedback Assistant to report the bug.
Another point that Tim made is about Apple's commitment to accessibility. I 
don't think that it has slid at all. In my 4 years that I've used Apple 
products, (4 years on November 3rd), I find accessibility about the same or a 
bit better. First I bought this MacBook, then the iPod Nanno, then the iTouch 
4, the iPhone 4, 4S, and now 5S. All these devices have done pretty much all 
I've wanted them to do. And guess what. My next computer if this white MacBook 
goes down the crapper or if Yosemite will be the last operating system I can 
upgrade to will probably be a MacBook Air because I know Apple products can get 
what I need to be accomplished done. And also like I said in a previous thread, 
PC's and I don't get along. :)

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Pamela Francis  wrote:
> 
> Hi Tim,
> Your position is fair. I don't disagree, other thanThe complaints being 
> registered   within bothIOS and Yosemite concern the apps that are shipped on 
> each  respective product. Do we not have reasonable expectation for the 
> same accessibility for the stock apps included within Apple OS be it OS 10 or 
> iOS eight?  That's my only question. Thanks much
> 
> Pam Francis
> 
> On Oct 25, 2014, at 1:19 PM, Tim Kilburn  wrote:
> 
> Hi Cheri and All,
> 
> In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
> the voices that you’ve expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting 
> back to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal 
> behaviour during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of 
> your preferred voice, you’ll find the quality is as good or better than it 
> was in iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General 
> Accessibility, VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices 
> is the same as it was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in 
> the Rotor, which is also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  
> Regarding the descriptions of Wallpaper etc, I didn’t notice this and it is 
> disappointing from an accessibility point of view.
> 
> Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple’s commitment to accessibility, 
> over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don’t go 
> very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to 
> our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things 
> were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right 
> away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In 
> future Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she 
> originally received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.
> While our desires for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in 
> an update is fair, it’s not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any 
> OS, be it iOS, MacOS, Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent 
> interaction between processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks 
> another.  Sometimes it takes a bit of work by the software engineers to 
> figure out how to make certain things work properly together.  Even with 
> beta-testers galore, not every glitch is found out prior to release.  This 
> sort of thing happens whether it’s an accessibility feature or just a regular 
> part of the user experience.
> 
> For example, tearing into Apple about them changing the look and feel of 
> iTunes and claiming that they have broken accessibility is an inaccurate 
> statement.  The actual accessibility of iTunes hasn’t changed at all, what 
> has changed is how we access the various features.  How easy it is for you to 
> manage the changes is not a factor of accessibility, it may be a level of 
> comfort or ease of use factor, but accessibility in the manner that VO users 
> use the term has to do with elements being visible and/or usable.  The device 
> accessibility market is by no means part

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Cheree Heppe]

Drops in performance should not be rewarded, especially when they have done 
better in earlier IOS releases.

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 12:56, The Believer  wrote:

  My take on this is this. Tim mentioned 'reasonable expectations'. Not only do 
we need to keep our expectations to a level that is not UNreasonable, it also 
means that when we encounter issues, we also keep them to a reasonable level 
when seeking help. Expressing displeasure is reasonable if its balanced with 
respect.

  If you had looked for a solution to the low quality of speech from the get 
go, the outcome would have been much different and you probably would not have 
reached the point you did and canceled your order. But its perfectly ok to do 
that and go with another company. Its a free market.

  I went from 7.1.2 to 8.1 and am perfectly happy with it. So far the only 
problem I have is Siri but that has little impact on my iPhone 5's usability. 
In a perfect world we would have zero issues with accessibility but then, in a 
perfect world, we would not need accessibility.

>From The Believer. . .
. . . what if it were true?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

> On 10/25/2014 12:06 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> Got the voice enhancements now and this helped.
> 
> Sent from my IPhone 4S
> 
> On 25 Oct 2014, at 11:19, Tim Kilburn  wrote:
> 
> Hi Cheri and All,
> 
> In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
> the voices that you've expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting 
> back to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal 
> behaviour during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of 
> your preferred voice, you'll find the quality is as good or better than it 
> was in iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General 
> Accessibility, VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices 
> is the same as it was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in 
> the Rotor, which is also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  
> Regarding the descriptions of Wallpaper etc, I didn't notice this and it is 
> disappointing from an accessibility point of view.
> 
> Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple's commitment to accessibility, 
> over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don't go 
> very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to 
> our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things 
> were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right 
> away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In 
> future Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she 
> originally received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.
> While our desires for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in 
> an update is fair, it's not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any 
> OS, be it iOS, MacOS, Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent 
> interaction between processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks 
> another.  Sometimes it takes a bit of work by the software engineers to 
> figure out how 
to make certain things work properly together.  Even with beta-testers galore, 
not every glitch is found out prior to release.  This sort of thing happens 
whether it's an accessibility feature or just a regular part of the user 
experience.
> 
> For example, tearing into Apple about them changing the look and feel of 
> iTunes and claiming that they have broken accessibility is an inaccurate 
> statement.  The actual accessibility of iTunes hasn't changed at all, what 
> has changed is how we access the various features.  How easy it is for you to 
> manage the changes is not a factor of accessibility, it may be a level of 
> comfort or ease of use factor, but accessibility in the manner that VO users 
> use the term has to do with elements being visible and/or usable.  The device 
> accessibility market is by no means particularly mature at this point in 
> time, so, I'd venture to say that any device we put in our hands will have 
> good and bad with respect to accessibility.  Android this, Windows that, 
> Apple thing-a-ma-bobber and whoever's talking which-a-macall-it all work to 
> some respect but have limitations and/or frustrations.  No point in dissing 
> Apple, Google or windows for that matter, it's unproductive.
> 
> So, after all this, I guess what I'm saying is continue submitting bug 
> reports and feature requests, and, expect for them to be addressed but be 
> reasonable.
> bug reports should be clear, expressing the facts of the issue, outlining how 
> and where it occurs, certainly they can include how it affects your 
> productivity but exaggeration and accusation need not be a part.  Progress is 
> occurring, will continue to occur and is necessary.
> 
> That's my rant for the week.  Have a good day all.
> 
> Later

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[The Believer]

   My take on this is this. Tim mentioned 'reasonable expectations'. 
Not only do we need to keep our expectations to a level that is not 
UNreasonable, it also means that when we encounter issues, we also keep 
them to a reasonable level when seeking help. Expressing displeasure is 
reasonable if its balanced with respect.


   If you had looked for a solution to the low quality of speech from 
the get go, the outcome would have been much different and you probably 
would not have reached the point you did and canceled your order. But 
its perfectly ok to do that and go with another company. Its a free market.


   I went from 7.1.2 to 8.1 and am perfectly happy with it. So far the 
only problem I have is Siri but that has little impact on my iPhone 5's 
usability. In a perfect world we would have zero issues with 
accessibility but then, in a perfect world, we would not need accessibility.


From The Believer. . .
 . . . what if it were true?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 10/25/2014 12:06 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

Got the voice enhancements now and this helped.

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 11:19, Tim Kilburn  wrote:

Hi Cheri and All,

In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
the voices that you've expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting back 
to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal behaviour 
during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of your 
preferred voice, you'll find the quality is as good or better than it was in 
iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General Accessibility, 
VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices is the same as it 
was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in the Rotor, which is 
also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  Regarding the descriptions 
of Wallpaper etc, I didn't notice this and it is disappointing from an 
accessibility point of view.

Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple's commitment to accessibility, over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don't go very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In future Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she originally received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.While our desires for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in an update is fair, it's not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any OS, be it iOS, MacOS, Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent interaction between processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks another.  Sometimes it takes a bit of work by the software engineers to figure out how 

to make certain things work properly together.  Even with beta-testers galore, 
not every glitch is found out prior to release.  This sort of thing happens 
whether it's an accessibility feature or just a regular part of the user 
experience.


For example, tearing into Apple about them changing the look and feel of iTunes 
and claiming that they have broken accessibility is an inaccurate statement.  
The actual accessibility of iTunes hasn't changed at all, what has changed is 
how we access the various features.  How easy it is for you to manage the 
changes is not a factor of accessibility, it may be a level of comfort or ease 
of use factor, but accessibility in the manner that VO users use the term has 
to do with elements being visible and/or usable.  The device accessibility 
market is by no means particularly mature at this point in time, so, I'd 
venture to say that any device we put in our hands will have good and bad with 
respect to accessibility.  Android this, Windows that, Apple thing-a-ma-bobber 
and whoever's talking which-a-macall-it all work to some respect but have 
limitations and/or frustrations.  No point in dissing Apple, Google or windows 
for that matter, it's unproductive.

So, after all this, I guess what I'm saying is continue submitting bug reports 
and feature requests, and, expect for them to be addressed but be reasonable.
bug reports should be clear, expressing the facts of the issue, outlining how 
and where it occurs, certainly they can include how it affects your 
productivity but exaggeration and accusation need not be a part.  Progress is 
occurring, will continue to occur and is necessary.

That's my rant for the week.  Have a good day all.

Later...

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada


On Oct 25, 2014, at 9:19 AM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:

Cheree Heppe here:
Even with the problems listed over a wide range of applications, I updated one 
of my iOS devices last night.  If what I am learning about 8.1 is symptomatic, 
I think blind users can kiss good A

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Cheree Heppe]

Got the voice enhancements now and this helped.

Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 11:19, Tim Kilburn  wrote:

Hi Cheri and All,

In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
the voices that you’ve expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting back 
to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal behaviour 
during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of your 
preferred voice, you’ll find the quality is as good or better than it was in 
iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General Accessibility, 
VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices is the same as it 
was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in the Rotor, which is 
also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  Regarding the descriptions 
of Wallpaper etc, I didn’t notice this and it is disappointing from an 
accessibility point of view.

Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple’s commitment to accessibility, 
over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don’t go 
very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to 
our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things 
were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right 
away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In future 
Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she originally 
received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.While our desires 
for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in an update is fair, 
it’s not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any OS, be it iOS, MacOS, 
Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent interaction between 
processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks another.  Sometimes it 
takes a bit of work by the software engineers to figure out how to make certain 
things work properly together.  Even with beta-testers galore, not every glitch 
is found out prior to release.  This sort of thing happens whether it’s an 
accessibility feature or just a regular part of the user experience.

For example, tearing into Apple about them changing the look and feel of iTunes 
and claiming that they have broken accessibility is an inaccurate statement.  
The actual accessibility of iTunes hasn’t changed at all, what has changed is 
how we access the various features.  How easy it is for you to manage the 
changes is not a factor of accessibility, it may be a level of comfort or ease 
of use factor, but accessibility in the manner that VO users use the term has 
to do with elements being visible and/or usable.  The device accessibility 
market is by no means particularly mature at this point in time, so, I’d 
venture to say that any device we put in our hands will have good and bad with 
respect to accessibility.  Android this, Windows that, Apple thing-a-ma-bobber 
and whoever’s talking which-a-macall-it all work to some respect but have 
limitations and/or frustrations.  No point in dissing Apple, Google or windows 
for that matter, it’s unproductive.

So, after all this, I guess what I’m saying is continue submitting bug reports 
and feature requests, and, expect for them to be addressed but be reasonable.  
bug reports should be clear, expressing the facts of the issue, outlining how 
and where it occurs, certainly they can include how it affects your 
productivity but exaggeration and accusation need not be a part.  Progress is 
occurring, will continue to occur and is necessary.

That’s my rant for the week.  Have a good day all.

Later…

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 9:19 AM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> Cheree Heppe here:
> Even with the problems listed over a wide range of applications, I updated 
> one of my iOS devices last night.  If what I am learning about 8.1 is 
> symptomatic, I think blind users can kiss good Apple access good-bye.
> One area: I remember getting my first iPhone and, in extreme skepticism and 
> with the half-done, JAWS and PC based accessibility as a precursor 
> experience, decided to find out whether the Wallpapers section gave access, 
> or merely lip service to Universal Design.
> How amazed and delight I felt when each photo featured an artistic and 
> pleasing description of the photo.  The description didnt just say photo dot 
> png or stick in woods dot whatever, these descriptions went that extra step 
> that separates accessibility wannabees from practitioners of Universal Design.
> In 8.1, I opened the Brightness and Wallpapers section on my iPad 2.  Every 
> photo gave those hald done, cursury, non-descriptive labels characterized by 
> no info, ugly word choice to mirror the photo and the png ending, just to 
> make sure anybody who cant see the png knows this isnt for them.
> It is my intention to cancel my order for an upgraded iPhone 6 and not to 
> upgrade to iOS 8 poi

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Pamela Francis]

Hi Tim,
Your position is fair. I don't disagree, other thanThe complaints being 
registered   within bothIOS and Yosemite concern the apps that are shipped on 
each  respective product. Do we not have reasonable expectation for the 
same accessibility for the stock apps included within Apple OS be it OS 10 or 
iOS eight?  That's my only question. Thanks much

Pam Francis

On Oct 25, 2014, at 1:19 PM, Tim Kilburn  wrote:

Hi Cheri and All,

In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
the voices that you’ve expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting back 
to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal behaviour 
during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of your 
preferred voice, you’ll find the quality is as good or better than it was in 
iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General Accessibility, 
VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices is the same as it 
was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in the Rotor, which is 
also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  Regarding the descriptions 
of Wallpaper etc, I didn’t notice this and it is disappointing from an 
accessibility point of view.

Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple’s commitment to accessibility, 
over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don’t go 
very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to 
our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things 
were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right 
away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In future 
Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she originally 
received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.While our desires 
for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in an update is fair, 
it’s not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any OS, be it iOS, MacOS, 
Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent interaction between 
processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks another.  Sometimes it 
takes a bit of work by the software engineers to figure out how to make certain 
things work properly together.  Even with beta-testers galore, not every glitch 
is found out prior to release.  This sort of thing happens whether it’s an 
accessibility feature or just a regular part of the user experience.

For example, tearing into Apple about them changing the look and feel of iTunes 
and claiming that they have broken accessibility is an inaccurate statement.  
The actual accessibility of iTunes hasn’t changed at all, what has changed is 
how we access the various features.  How easy it is for you to manage the 
changes is not a factor of accessibility, it may be a level of comfort or ease 
of use factor, but accessibility in the manner that VO users use the term has 
to do with elements being visible and/or usable.  The device accessibility 
market is by no means particularly mature at this point in time, so, I’d 
venture to say that any device we put in our hands will have good and bad with 
respect to accessibility.  Android this, Windows that, Apple thing-a-ma-bobber 
and whoever’s talking which-a-macall-it all work to some respect but have 
limitations and/or frustrations.  No point in dissing Apple, Google or windows 
for that matter, it’s unproductive.

So, after all this, I guess what I’m saying is continue submitting bug reports 
and feature requests, and, expect for them to be addressed but be reasonable.  
bug reports should be clear, expressing the facts of the issue, outlining how 
and where it occurs, certainly they can include how it affects your 
productivity but exaggeration and accusation need not be a part.  Progress is 
occurring, will continue to occur and is necessary.

That’s my rant for the week.  Have a good day all.

Later…

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 9:19 AM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> Cheree Heppe here:
> Even with the problems listed over a wide range of applications, I updated 
> one of my iOS devices last night.  If what I am learning about 8.1 is 
> symptomatic, I think blind users can kiss good Apple access good-bye.
> One area: I remember getting my first iPhone and, in extreme skepticism and 
> with the half-done, JAWS and PC based accessibility as a precursor 
> experience, decided to find out whether the Wallpapers section gave access, 
> or merely lip service to Universal Design.
> How amazed and delight I felt when each photo featured an artistic and 
> pleasing description of the photo.  The description didnt just say photo dot 
> png or stick in woods dot whatever, these descriptions went that extra step 
> that separates accessibility wannabees from practitioners of Universal Design.
> In 8.1, I opened the Brightness and Wallpapers section on my iPad 2.  Every 
> photo gave t

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi Cheri and All,

In my opinion, you have made some inaccurate assertions here.  The quality of 
the voices that you’ve expressed is likely due to your iDevice defaulting back 
to the low quality, non-enhanced version of the voices.  Normal behaviour 
during the update process.  If you download the enhanced version of your 
preferred voice, you’ll find the quality is as good or better than it was in 
iOS 7.  The download can be achieved in the Settings, General Accessibility, 
VoiceOver under the Speech section.  Switching between voices is the same as it 
was in iOS 7 when your Language preferences are included in the Rotor, which is 
also configured in the same area outlined earlier.  Regarding the descriptions 
of Wallpaper etc, I didn’t notice this and it is disappointing from an 
accessibility point of view.

Regarding yours and others opinions on Apple’s commitment to accessibility, 
over-exaggeration and inaccurate accusations or assumptions usually don’t go 
very far.  For example, I had a co-worker that used to put in Work Orders to 
our Maintenance department saying that it was so cold in the room that things 
were freezing to the floor and other surfaces.  Maintenance came over right 
away and determined that it was a few degrees colder than she liked.  In future 
Work Orders, she was not given near the priority attention that she originally 
received due to her tendency for over-blowing a situation.While our desires 
for accessibility to be perfect and to never get broken in an update is fair, 
it’s not likely going to be realized in all cases.  Any OS, be it iOS, MacOS, 
Chrome-OS or even Windows is a complex, interdependent interaction between 
processes.  Sometimes the fixing of one factor breaks another.  Sometimes it 
takes a bit of work by the software engineers to figure out how to make certain 
things work properly together.  Even with beta-testers galore, not every glitch 
is found out prior to release.  This sort of thing happens whether it’s an 
accessibility feature or just a regular part of the user experience.

For example, tearing into Apple about them changing the look and feel of iTunes 
and claiming that they have broken accessibility is an inaccurate statement.  
The actual accessibility of iTunes hasn’t changed at all, what has changed is 
how we access the various features.  How easy it is for you to manage the 
changes is not a factor of accessibility, it may be a level of comfort or ease 
of use factor, but accessibility in the manner that VO users use the term has 
to do with elements being visible and/or usable.  The device accessibility 
market is by no means particularly mature at this point in time, so, I’d 
venture to say that any device we put in our hands will have good and bad with 
respect to accessibility.  Android this, Windows that, Apple thing-a-ma-bobber 
and whoever’s talking which-a-macall-it all work to some respect but have 
limitations and/or frustrations.  No point in dissing Apple, Google or windows 
for that matter, it’s unproductive.

So, after all this, I guess what I’m saying is continue submitting bug reports 
and feature requests, and, expect for them to be addressed but be reasonable.  
bug reports should be clear, expressing the facts of the issue, outlining how 
and where it occurs, certainly they can include how it affects your 
productivity but exaggeration and accusation need not be a part.  Progress is 
occurring, will continue to occur and is necessary.

That’s my rant for the week.  Have a good day all.

Later…
  
Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 9:19 AM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> Cheree Heppe here:
> Even with the problems listed over a wide range of applications, I updated 
> one of my iOS devices last night.  If what I am learning about 8.1 is 
> symptomatic, I think blind users can kiss good Apple access good-bye.
> One area: I remember getting my first iPhone and, in extreme skepticism and 
> with the half-done, JAWS and PC based accessibility as a precursor 
> experience, decided to find out whether the Wallpapers section gave access, 
> or merely lip service to Universal Design.
> How amazed and delight I felt when each photo featured an artistic and 
> pleasing description of the photo.  The description didnt just say photo dot 
> png or stick in woods dot whatever, these descriptions went that extra step 
> that separates accessibility wannabees from practitioners of Universal Design.
> In 8.1, I opened the Brightness and Wallpapers section on my iPad 2.  Every 
> photo gave those hald done, cursury, non-descriptive labels characterized by 
> no info, ugly word choice to mirror the photo and the png ending, just to 
> make sure anybody who cant see the png knows this isnt for them.
> It is my intention to cancel my order for an upgraded iPhone 6 and not to 
> upgrade to iOS 8 point anything.
> The voices on iOS 8 point whatever sound modified.  They sound artificial and 
> there is no longer the

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Pamela Francis]

I have a friend who had a similar experience both with the OS and and 
accessibility representative.
He wrote a letter to accessibil...@apple.com  I also wrote my own letter to 
them expressing my displeasure with their most recent update. I don't think 
either of us got a response, however you might want to try posting that note on 
their Facebook page. 
If you thinking of converting, check out the Samsung galaxy S5. I did. You will 
have very similar if not in some areas superior accessibility than is currently 
available in 8.1

Pam Francis

On Oct 25, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Jenny Bomareto  wrote:

To the person that is not happy with IOS 8.1 and chose to cancel getting the 
iPhone 6.  Did you send your note to Apple so they are aware of this and will 
fix these issues?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 9:19 AM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> Cheree Heppe here:
> Even with the problems listed over a wide range of applications, I updated 
> one of my iOS devices last night.  If what I am learning about 8.1 is 
> symptomatic, I think blind users can kiss good Apple access good-bye.
> One area: I remember getting my first iPhone and, in extreme skepticism and 
> with the half-done, JAWS and PC based accessibility as a precursor 
> experience, decided to find out whether the Wallpapers section gave access, 
> or merely lip service to Universal Design.
> How amazed and delight I felt when each photo featured an artistic and 
> pleasing description of the photo.  The description didnt just say photo dot 
> png or stick in woods dot whatever, these descriptions went that extra step 
> that separates accessibility wannabees from practitioners of Universal Design.
> In 8.1, I opened the Brightness and Wallpapers section on my iPad 2.  Every 
> photo gave those hald done, cursury, non-descriptive labels characterized by 
> no info, ugly word choice to mirror the photo and the png ending, just to 
> make sure anybody who cant see the png knows this isnt for them.
> It is my intention to cancel my order for an upgraded iPhone 6 and not to 
> upgrade to iOS 8 point anything.
> The voices on iOS 8 point whatever sound modified.  They sound artificial and 
> there is no longer the ease of switching between voices.  Switching between 
> voices has now become a secret process, or, at least, unavailable to me, a 
> blind user.
> My thoughts, but, I am leaning toward making a change before the whole 
> archology goes south.
> 
> Sad and very disappointed.  Aple has had access to some really discerning, 
> brilliant blind users who could give really cogent advice in the best user 
> mode.  I guess that isnt who is being listened to.
> 
> Careless, sloppy, inattention to detail.  Disregard for user specific needs.
> 
> Very sad.
> 
> Bye-bye.
> 
> Regards, 
> Cheree Heppe
> 
> 
> Sent from my IPhone 4S
> 
> On 25 Oct 2014, at 1:26, venky...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Its disappointing to know that the issues are not fixed in 8.1.
> Thanks.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 23-Oct-2014, at 4:34 am, Jessica Moss  wrote:
>> 
>> I had those same issues with my 4S, which I unfortunately didn't realize I 
>> was going to before I updated it, due to the fact that it's an older phone, 
>> and actually had no idea you could downgrade again, so you did the right 
>> thing doing that, sense you were going to have a rough time of it unless you 
>> plan on upgrading your phone any time soon.
>>> On Oct 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, Venkatesh Potluri  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi list,
>>> I am using a 16GB iPhone 4S. I updated to iOs 8 and had a lot of
>>> issues so had to downgrade back to 7.1. My phone got a lot slower,
>>> apps like whatsapp and messenger kept constantly crashing and VO
>>> randomly restarts it self. i had many accidental touches, accidental
>>> calls, etc. I wish to know if these issues have been resolved in 8.1.
>>> Another major reason for me wanting to upgrade is the Flecksy
>>> keyboard. How good is it? I read that there are still problems using
>>> it. are there any show stopper bugs? Is the Looktel money reader
>>> working fine in 8.1?
>>> Thank you.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Venkatesh Potluri
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
>> -- 
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>> F

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Jenny Bomareto]

To the person that is not happy with IOS 8.1 and chose to cancel getting the 
iPhone 6.  Did you send your note to Apple so they are aware of this and will 
fix these issues?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 25, 2014, at 9:19 AM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> Cheree Heppe here:
> Even with the problems listed over a wide range of applications, I updated 
> one of my iOS devices last night.  If what I am learning about 8.1 is 
> symptomatic, I think blind users can kiss good Apple access good-bye.
> One area: I remember getting my first iPhone and, in extreme skepticism and 
> with the half-done, JAWS and PC based accessibility as a precursor 
> experience, decided to find out whether the Wallpapers section gave access, 
> or merely lip service to Universal Design.
> How amazed and delight I felt when each photo featured an artistic and 
> pleasing description of the photo.  The description didnt just say photo dot 
> png or stick in woods dot whatever, these descriptions went that extra step 
> that separates accessibility wannabees from practitioners of Universal Design.
> In 8.1, I opened the Brightness and Wallpapers section on my iPad 2.  Every 
> photo gave those hald done, cursury, non-descriptive labels characterized by 
> no info, ugly word choice to mirror the photo and the png ending, just to 
> make sure anybody who cant see the png knows this isnt for them.
> It is my intention to cancel my order for an upgraded iPhone 6 and not to 
> upgrade to iOS 8 point anything.
> The voices on iOS 8 point whatever sound modified.  They sound artificial and 
> there is no longer the ease of switching between voices.  Switching between 
> voices has now become a secret process, or, at least, unavailable to me, a 
> blind user.
> My thoughts, but, I am leaning toward making a change before the whole 
> archology goes south.
> 
> Sad and very disappointed.  Aple has had access to some really discerning, 
> brilliant blind users who could give really cogent advice in the best user 
> mode.  I guess that isnt who is being listened to.
> 
> Careless, sloppy, inattention to detail.  Disregard for user specific needs.
> 
> Very sad.
> 
> Bye-bye.
> 
> Regards, 
> Cheree Heppe
> 
> 
> Sent from my IPhone 4S
> 
> On 25 Oct 2014, at 1:26, venky...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Its disappointing to know that the issues are not fixed in 8.1.
> Thanks.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 23-Oct-2014, at 4:34 am, Jessica Moss  wrote:
>> 
>> I had those same issues with my 4S, which I unfortunately didn't realize I 
>> was going to before I updated it, due to the fact that it's an older phone, 
>> and actually had no idea you could downgrade again, so you did the right 
>> thing doing that, sense you were going to have a rough time of it unless you 
>> plan on upgrading your phone any time soon.
>>> On Oct 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, Venkatesh Potluri  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi list,
>>> I am using a 16GB iPhone 4S. I updated to iOs 8 and had a lot of
>>> issues so had to downgrade back to 7.1. My phone got a lot slower,
>>> apps like whatsapp and messenger kept constantly crashing and VO
>>> randomly restarts it self. i had many accidental touches, accidental
>>> calls, etc. I wish to know if these issues have been resolved in 8.1.
>>> Another major reason for me wanting to upgrade is the Flecksy
>>> keyboard. How good is it? I read that there are still problems using
>>> it. are there any show stopper bugs? Is the Looktel money reader
>>> working fine in 8.1?
>>> Thank you.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Venkatesh Potluri
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
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> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVision

Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Cheree Heppe]

Cheree Heppe here:
Even with the problems listed over a wide range of applications, I updated one 
of my iOS devices last night.  If what I am learning about 8.1 is symptomatic, 
I think blind users can kiss good Apple access good-bye.
One area: I remember getting my first iPhone and, in extreme skepticism and 
with the half-done, JAWS and PC based accessibility as a precursor experience, 
decided to find out whether the Wallpapers section gave access, or merely lip 
service to Universal Design.
How amazed and delight I felt when each photo featured an artistic and pleasing 
description of the photo.  The description didnt just say photo dot png or 
stick in woods dot whatever, these descriptions went that extra step that 
separates accessibility wannabees from practitioners of Universal Design.
In 8.1, I opened the Brightness and Wallpapers section on my iPad 2.  Every 
photo gave those hald done, cursury, non-descriptive labels characterized by no 
info, ugly word choice to mirror the photo and the png ending, just to make 
sure anybody who cant see the png knows this isnt for them.
It is my intention to cancel my order for an upgraded iPhone 6 and not to 
upgrade to iOS 8 point anything.
The voices on iOS 8 point whatever sound modified.  They sound artificial and 
there is no longer the ease of switching between voices.  Switching between 
voices has now become a secret process, or, at least, unavailable to me, a 
blind user.
My thoughts, but, I am leaning toward making a change before the whole 
archology goes south.

Sad and very disappointed.  Aple has had access to some really discerning, 
brilliant blind users who could give really cogent advice in the best user 
mode.  I guess that isnt who is being listened to.

Careless, sloppy, inattention to detail.  Disregard for user specific needs.

Very sad.

Bye-bye.

Regards, 
Cheree Heppe


Sent from my IPhone 4S

On 25 Oct 2014, at 1:26, venky...@gmail.com wrote:

Its disappointing to know that the issues are not fixed in 8.1.
Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 23-Oct-2014, at 4:34 am, Jessica Moss  wrote:
> 
> I had those same issues with my 4S, which I unfortunately didn't realize I 
> was going to before I updated it, due to the fact that it's an older phone, 
> and actually had no idea you could downgrade again, so you did the right 
> thing doing that, sense you were going to have a rough time of it unless you 
> plan on upgrading your phone any time soon.
>> On Oct 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, Venkatesh Potluri  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi list,
>> I am using a 16GB iPhone 4S. I updated to iOs 8 and had a lot of
>> issues so had to downgrade back to 7.1. My phone got a lot slower,
>> apps like whatsapp and messenger kept constantly crashing and VO
>> randomly restarts it self. i had many accidental touches, accidental
>> calls, etc. I wish to know if these issues have been resolved in 8.1.
>> Another major reason for me wanting to upgrade is the Flecksy
>> keyboard. How good is it? I read that there are still problems using
>> it. are there any show stopper bugs? Is the Looktel money reader
>> working fine in 8.1?
>> Thank you.
>> Cheers,
>> Venkatesh Potluri
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> -- 
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> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
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Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[venky . 92]

Its disappointing to know that the issues are not fixed in 8.1.
Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 23-Oct-2014, at 4:34 am, Jessica Moss  wrote:
> 
> I had those same issues with my 4S, which I unfortunately didn't realize I 
> was going to before I updated it, due to the fact that it's an older phone, 
> and actually had no idea you could downgrade again, so you did the right 
> thing doing that, sense you were going to have a rough time of it unless you 
> plan on upgrading your phone any time soon.
>> On Oct 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, Venkatesh Potluri  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi list,
>> I am using a 16GB iPhone 4S. I updated to iOs 8 and had a lot of
>> issues so had to downgrade back to 7.1. My phone got a lot slower,
>> apps like whatsapp and messenger kept constantly crashing and VO
>> randomly restarts it self. i had many accidental touches, accidental
>> calls, etc. I wish to know if these issues have been resolved in 8.1.
>> Another major reason for me wanting to upgrade is the Flecksy
>> keyboard. How good is it? I read that there are still problems using
>> it. are there any show stopper bugs? Is the Looktel money reader
>> working fine in 8.1?
>> Thank you.
>> Cheers,
>> Venkatesh Potluri
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> 
> -- 
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Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Pamela Francis]

Hi everyone,
I too  have a 4s. It was time for me to upgrade, I chose to move to android, 
primarily because it was going to be cheaper along with my accessibility on my 
chosen phone was similar to what I get with voiceover. I kept my phone 
relegating it to airplane mode in order to continue to use some of the games 
that I have used not supported by android as of yet. Does anyone know if Apple 
will continue to support legacy apps as they did in their previous update? 

Pam Francis

On Oct 22, 2014, at 6:04 PM, Jessica Moss  wrote:

I had those same issues with my 4S, which I unfortunately didn't realize I was 
going to before I updated it, due to the fact that it's an older phone, and 
actually had no idea you could downgrade again, so you did the right thing 
doing that, sense you were going to have a rough time of it unless you plan on 
upgrading your phone any time soon.
> On Oct 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, Venkatesh Potluri  wrote:
> 
> Hi list,
> I am using a 16GB iPhone 4S. I updated to iOs 8 and had a lot of
> issues so had to downgrade back to 7.1. My phone got a lot slower,
> apps like whatsapp and messenger kept constantly crashing and VO
> randomly restarts it self. i had many accidental touches, accidental
> calls, etc. I wish to know if these issues have been resolved in 8.1.
> Another major reason for me wanting to upgrade is the Flecksy
> keyboard. How good is it? I read that there are still problems using
> it. are there any show stopper bugs? Is the Looktel money reader
> working fine in 8.1?
> Thank you.
> Cheers,
> Venkatesh Potluri
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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Re: iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Jessica Moss]

I had those same issues with my 4S, which I unfortunately didn't realize I was 
going to before I updated it, due to the fact that it's an older phone, and 
actually had no idea you could downgrade again, so you did the right thing 
doing that, sense you were going to have a rough time of it unless you plan on 
upgrading your phone any time soon.
On Oct 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, Venkatesh Potluri  wrote:

> Hi list,
> I am using a 16GB iPhone 4S. I updated to iOs 8 and had a lot of
> issues so had to downgrade back to 7.1. My phone got a lot slower,
> apps like whatsapp and messenger kept constantly crashing and VO
> randomly restarts it self. i had many accidental touches, accidental
> calls, etc. I wish to know if these issues have been resolved in 8.1.
> Another major reason for me wanting to upgrade is the Flecksy
> keyboard. How good is it? I read that there are still problems using
> it. are there any show stopper bugs? Is the Looktel money reader
> working fine in 8.1?
> Thank you.
> Cheers,
> Venkatesh Potluri
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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iOs 8.1 performance on iPhone 4S

[Venkatesh Potluri]

Hi list,
I am using a 16GB iPhone 4S. I updated to iOs 8 and had a lot of
issues so had to downgrade back to 7.1. My phone got a lot slower,
apps like whatsapp and messenger kept constantly crashing and VO
randomly restarts it self. i had many accidental touches, accidental
calls, etc. I wish to know if these issues have been resolved in 8.1.
Another major reason for me wanting to upgrade is the Flecksy
keyboard. How good is it? I read that there are still problems using
it. are there any show stopper bugs? Is the Looktel money reader
working fine in 8.1?
Thank you.
Cheers,
Venkatesh Potluri

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