Re: Maemo & Linux mainstream again (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
There are synergies between ubuntu and maemo. Nokia does bluetooth and wifi much better. Ubuntu has better package management and updates. It would be wonderful if the tablet was just a subset of Ubuntu-(mobile?)-for-ARM, perhaps with a few additions. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo & Linux mainstream again (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Hi, > Sure. However as for today there is no Ubuntu productized for ARM, so > it's not as easy as it might look like for the average Ubuntu > enthusiast. The Mojo project (funded by Nokia, btw) is investigating > that Ubuntu ARM port. It is probably not very difficult to put a "Maemo > Ubuntu Hacker Edition" in place, but the guys in the know think that > there is a longer way before shipping commercial products on that basis. I am sure this is pretty widely known but anyway armel is now officially debootstrapable on jaunty debootstrap jaunty http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports debootstrap --variant=buildd jaunty http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports > Another aspect to be analyzed are the implications of Nokia relying > totally on a platform delivered (ultimately) by a private third party. This can be achieved by thinking about how *both* sides can gain in the exchange. Ubuntu is interesting to Nokia if (and only if) the community around it gets big enough to support the kind of numbers Nokia deals with and Nokia is interesting to Ubuntu if (and only if) the markets it has access to continue to be available. I'd recommend Nokia hire some people to work on Ubuntu. Dell has a couple of employees who spend all day working on Ubuntu (one recently became core-dev), and so Ubuntu works very well on Dell hardware. Those people could also register specs, argue for them at Ubuntu Developer Summits, etc., and generally ensure that Ubuntu was exactly what Nokia needed. Work on getting patches directly into Ubuntu rather than maintaining a separate flavor. Realigning around a central core would help everyone > Don't get me wrong, we have good relationship with Mark and the > Canonical crew. But what if one day they all go for a new mission in the > outer space? Also, as more companies sponsor people (currently there are about four that have more than one employee working on Ubuntu), the easier it is for them to make sure the Ubuntu Foundation does it's job if Mark does go back to space. Assuming I was completely in charge of Nokia strategy, I'd loosely recommend looking at the internal goals, and thinking about whether you want to engage in a business alliance, or sponsor developers. Doing both is the most expensive solution, but if the volume is high enough, may be warranted. Option 1 --- Paying developers means either hiring existing Ubuntu developers, or getting Nokia devs to work through the processes to become Ubuntu developers (this usually takes about six months). The advantage is that you can completely control their targets and direction. The disadvantage is that you have to work within the framework to get the work applied initially. Option 2 Engaging in a contract with Canonical means that Canonical is responsible for the application of everything. The advantage is that it's not that much hassle, just a bunch of money. The disadvantage is working at a level removed: the basic vendor relationship. What balance of these two options provides for the best expression of Nokia's strategy would require me to have a lot more knowledge than I have at present about Nokia internal strategy etc but as a start it may be worth tracking down some of the other guys from Google, Dell or Sun who work with Ubuntu and talking with them about the costs and benefits of such a strategy however intangible each of these might be Regards, Ian -- http://ianlawrence.info ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Simon Pickering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Yes I agree with your point, make it easier to plug in different codecs to > the standard media player (or even open it up, and just keep the > differentiation GUI closed source if required). This *should* be what MIDAS and GStreamer together give in the fremantle world. The closed source GUI will invoke `someMidasObject.play()', without caring what format it's in. AIUI, anyway. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ maemo.org Community Council member ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
> There are several disjoint projects to bring Ogg/Vorbis/Theora support > to the standard media player. None of them work completely as far as > I can tell - some add the codecs, most don't do all the > mime-associations. Nokia has already said they will never support it > out of the box, so the next best thing would be to have something > available to fully integrate it. It seems possible, and the highest > voted bug report from the community is specifically for Ogg/V/T > support (under the title of a DSP driver, but I'd like a fully > integrated native one even if it did drain the battery a bit faster). There's an apparent lack of interest/involvement in porting the codec to the DSP; I lack motivation as I don't use OGG for anything, will have to investigate far more about how different memory buffers are used (and which ones can therefore be placed in slow SDRAM as there's not enough fast on-DSP memory to go around), and have other more relevant/interesting stuff to do at the moment. Yes I agree with your point, make it easier to plug in different codecs to the standard media player (or even open it up, and just keep the differentiation GUI closed source if required). Cheers, Simon ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:05 AM, Felipe Contreras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:40 AM, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> Hi! >> >> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Fred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Would VLC (http://www.videolan.org) be a good client ? >>> There was a port for Maemo but it was underpowered. >>> It has the capacity to be embedded and could be a very good all-purpose >>> (all-codec) media player ... >> >> Perhaps this is one of the days when VLC developers regret the >> decision to not synchronize/collaborate with GStreamer when GStreamer >> was "there"? Since Nokia supports GStreamer for very obvious (to the >> maemo community) reasons, supporting a competitor project wouldn't be >> a very wise idea. > > Like supporting both Qt and GTK+? Heh! this analogy isn't a very good one since: 1. You do know that Qt is now owned by Nokia? Adding support for that besides maintaining support for *existing" Gtk+ shouldn't be a big surprise? 2. Gtk+ and Qt are very great UI *frameworks* but the same is not true about GStreamer, VLC and MPlayer since the last two are more of Players rather than frameworks, although good pretty good but still not really frameworks. -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) FSF member#5124 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Siarhei Siamashka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Saturday 01 November 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: >> On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Simon Pickering wrote: >> > Something with more mileage, though still not really a killer app, >> > would be working on optimisation of the backend libs that all three >> > media players use (therefore any media player would benefit). But this >> > will have to wait until we see what the hardware is capable of really. >> >> Considering the hardware is already doing 720p with only NEON >> optimizations, well. . . . > > There are always ways to make a powerful hardware run as fast as a snail ;) > Especially when excessively complex frameworks and layers are used, chances > of having something implemented inefficiently in between get a bit higher. Yes, but as long as you avoid memory copies having 3 or 4 layers is a small price to pay if the the gist of the code is properly optimized. H.264 for example can consume a lot of CPU power so every optimization (on the processing code) counts. -- Felipe Contreras ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 10:59 PM, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi! > >> Agreed, we have officially supported GStreamer and the excellent mplayer >> which can be wrapped if someone wants a (different) gui. VLC certainly >> doesn't classify as a killer app bearing these in mind IMHO. > > You missed my entire point. :) mplayer is also a competitor of > GStreamer and afaik it is NOT officially supported by Nokia. MPlayer > is a great application no doubt but so is VLC (afaik much more > portable even) and therefore unfortunately faces the same fate. > >> Something with more mileage, though still not really a killer app, would be >> working on optimisation of the backend libs that all three media players use >> (therefore any media player would benefit). But this will have to wait until >> we see what the hardware is capable of really. > > Which backend libs all three apps use? I think GStreamer is the > perfect backend that all multimedia applications should be using if > they are very serious about targeting Maemo. OTOH! I understand their > reasons for not going for GStreamer since this will require a huge > amount of work and also throwing off a huge amount of investment both > MPlayer and VLC have put into their own stacks. GStreamer is not as lightweight as FFmpeg for example. I can see why MPlayer and VLC developers wouldn't want to use it as a backend. As a framework it's great though. The "backends" that Simon talks about are the ones that most projects share: libmad, libvorbis, x264 (which VLC guys started), etc. But must of the codec support comes from FFmpeg (both gst and vlc use it), and I don't see, for example, GStreamer developers optimizing the codecs for ARM as the FFmpeg guys are doing. But this is of course in the open source arena, when doing products you can't just use FFmpeg due to licensing issues. That's why GStreamer is more attractive to companies since it's extensible and proprietary modules can be developed. Android is following a completely different approach. It's providing the codecs themselves[1] in an Apache licence, so the open source community can compile and improve them, but companies can also include them in their products paying the licence fees, and contribute without granting patents. Also, Google is providing the codecs with OpenMAX IL interface, so GStreamer can already make use of them through gst-openmax [2]. In a similar fashion GStreamer can use proprietary DSP accelerated codecs through the OpenMAX IL interface. Anyway, coming back to the subject; I don't have a media player that suit my needs in the Maemo devices, so VLC looks like a nice alternative. But eventually, as Simon points out, it's more important to work on the backends that the different players can reuse, otherwise performance will be bad. [1] http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/external/opencore.git [2] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/GstOpenMAX -- Felipe Contreras ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:40 AM, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi! > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Fred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Would VLC (http://www.videolan.org) be a good client ? >> There was a port for Maemo but it was underpowered. >> It has the capacity to be embedded and could be a very good all-purpose >> (all-codec) media player ... > > Perhaps this is one of the days when VLC developers regret the > decision to not synchronize/collaborate with GStreamer when GStreamer > was "there"? Since Nokia supports GStreamer for very obvious (to the > maemo community) reasons, supporting a competitor project wouldn't be > a very wise idea. Like supporting both Qt and GTK+? -- Felipe Contreras ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi! > Agreed, we have officially supported GStreamer and the excellent mplayer > which can be wrapped if someone wants a (different) gui. VLC certainly > doesn't classify as a killer app bearing these in mind IMHO. You missed my entire point. :) mplayer is also a competitor of GStreamer and afaik it is NOT officially supported by Nokia. MPlayer is a great application no doubt but so is VLC (afaik much more portable even) and therefore unfortunately faces the same fate. > Something with more mileage, though still not really a killer app, would be > working on optimisation of the backend libs that all three media players use > (therefore any media player would benefit). But this will have to wait until > we see what the hardware is capable of really. Which backend libs all three apps use? I think GStreamer is the perfect backend that all multimedia applications should be using if they are very serious about targeting Maemo. OTOH! I understand their reasons for not going for GStreamer since this will require a huge amount of work and also throwing off a huge amount of investment both MPlayer and VLC have put into their own stacks. -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali Khattak FSF member#5124 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Saturday 01 November 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: > On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Simon Pickering wrote: > > Something with more mileage, though still not really a killer app, > > would be working on optimisation of the backend libs that all three > > media players use (therefore any media player would benefit). But this > > will have to wait until we see what the hardware is capable of really. > > Considering the hardware is already doing 720p with only NEON > optimizations, well. . . . There are always ways to make a powerful hardware run as fast as a snail ;) Especially when excessively complex frameworks and layers are used, chances of having something implemented inefficiently in between get a bit higher. -- Best regards, Siarhei Siamashka ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Simon Pickering wrote: > Something with more mileage, though still not really a killer app, > would be working on optimisation of the backend libs that all three > media players use (therefore any media player would benefit). But this > will have to wait until we see what the hardware is capable of really. Considering the hardware is already doing 720p with only NEON optimizations, well. . . . -- Ryan Abel Maemo Community Council chair ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Fred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Would VLC (http://www.videolan.org) be a good client ? >> There was a port for Maemo but it was underpowered. >> It has the capacity to be embedded and could be a very good all-purpose >> (all-codec) media player ... > > Perhaps this is one of the days when VLC developers regret the > decision to not synchronize/collaborate with GStreamer when GStreamer > was "there"? Since Nokia supports GStreamer for very obvious (to the > maemo community) reasons, supporting a competitor project wouldn't be > a very wise idea. > > DISCLAIMER: This is my very personal opinion and it may very well be wrong. Agreed, we have officially supported GStreamer and the excellent mplayer which can be wrapped if someone wants a (different) gui. VLC certainly doesn't classify as a killer app bearing these in mind IMHO. Something with more mileage, though still not really a killer app, would be working on optimisation of the backend libs that all three media players use (therefore any media player would benefit). But this will have to wait until we see what the hardware is capable of really. Cheers, Simon ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi! On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Fred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Would VLC (http://www.videolan.org) be a good client ? > There was a port for Maemo but it was underpowered. > It has the capacity to be embedded and could be a very good all-purpose > (all-codec) media player ... Perhaps this is one of the days when VLC developers regret the decision to not synchronize/collaborate with GStreamer when GStreamer was "there"? Since Nokia supports GStreamer for very obvious (to the maemo community) reasons, supporting a competitor project wouldn't be a very wise idea. DISCLAIMER: This is my very personal opinion and it may very well be wrong. -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali Khattak FSF member#5124 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Oct 31, 2008, at 10:17 AM, tz wrote: > Nokia has already said they will never support it > out of the box, so the next best thing would be to have something > available to fully integrate it. It's coming in Maemo 5. -- Ryan Abel Maemo Community Council chair ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Still unsure? My fault, then. Let's put it like this: > > We want Maemo 5 explorers squeezing Fremantle and making amazing > end-user ready products out of it. > >> Whether existing projects can apply (or, on the contrary, cannot apply) > > Of course they can, but if an existing project in thinks 'we are done, > it's just about porting/fixing bugs' then it is probably not the best > candidate. Fresh thinking and more creativity is needed. There are several disjoint projects to bring Ogg/Vorbis/Theora support to the standard media player. None of them work completely as far as I can tell - some add the codecs, most don't do all the mime-associations. Nokia has already said they will never support it out of the box, so the next best thing would be to have something available to fully integrate it. It seems possible, and the highest voted bug report from the community is specifically for Ogg/V/T support (under the title of a DSP driver, but I'd like a fully integrated native one even if it did drain the battery a bit faster). >> It's a little unclear whether it's targeting volunteer developers >> working on this in their spare time who might be interested in making a >> living on it, or companies who are working on free software, or >> volunteers who just want a hand, but are very happy staying volunteers. > > We are referring here to community projects, which imply open planning > and development. In practice this calls primarily to volunteers and open > source code but maybe there are exceptions worth considering - you decide. - Show quoted text - >> >> The same comment from me - I'm unsure exactly what you're expecting, >> what types of projects are elligible, > > Still unsure? My fault, then. Let's put it like this: > > We want Maemo 5 explorers squeezing Fremantle and making amazing > end-user ready products out of it. > >> Whether existing projects can apply (or, on the contrary, cannot apply) > > Of course they can, but if an existing project in thinks 'we are done, > it's just about porting/fixing bugs' then it is probably not the best > candidate. Fresh thinking and more creativity is needed. > > >> It's a little unclear whether it's targeting volunteer developers >> working on this in their spare time who might be interested in making a >> living on it, or companies who are working on free software, or >> volunteers who just want a hand, but are very happy staying volunteers. > > We are referring here to community projects, which imply open planning > and development. In practice this calls primarily to volunteers and open > source code but maybe there are exceptions worth considering - you decide. > > -- > Quim Gil > marketing manager, open source > Maemo Software @ Nokia > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo & Linux mainstream (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
ext Neil Jerram wrote: > (And I could be right to suggest that maximizing community benefit is > a path to commercial success Of course, why do you think Nokia hires (otherwise pretty useless) people like me? :) > I completely agree that the UI requirement differences are very > challenging. I just don't think that we have yet fully explored the > possibilities for addressing this within the infrastructure, as > opposed to by modifying application level code. Sure, but Nokia has a UI vision and a bunch of professionals working on implementing it in the Maemo platform, while huge application areas are on purpose left for third party development. This is why in this call we are not looking at (otherwise interesting) proposals focused on improving the platform. > I'm worried you're missing amazing applications that > already exist. As well as supporting new development, what about > asking for recommendations of existing apps that would be great on the > tablets, with a little polish? Did we put any restrictions on existing software and ports? Not at all. > Yes, but I think the Debian people would say that they want to include > mobile stuff too, not just desktop. Hence (1) there may already be > suitable mobile apps there; (2) even if not, it would still (I think) > be a good distribution channel for future mobile apps, plus > infrastructure needed for them. (1) sure: list them for our consideration, please. (2) sure, we have nothing against Debian and other distros becoming stronger distributors of mobile software. We at Maemo will do also our best becoming a good distributor of that software, probably including users new to Linux and explicit free software. > >>> - the existence of hildon. >> Hildon is available in Debian and Ubuntu. > > That's good, sorry for not checking that myself first; it means I > should be able to push my hildon bindings upstream too! > >> It covers features important >> in the mobile context that GTK+ is not covering as for today. > > I hadn't appreciated that, through just using the widgets. Is there a > write up of this somewhere? Like http://maemo.org/maemo_release_documentation/maemo4.1.x/node7.html ? See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildon for other interesting links. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo & Linux mainstream (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Hi Quim, 2008/10/24 Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Thanks for the very good feedback! > > Answering to Till and Neil, who came up with requirements difficult to > combine: mobile uniqueness versus API compatibility across several > platforms. Many thanks for your response. It is clear that you understand and are trying to incorporate the point/viewpoint that I was expressing, so thank you for that. Also I appreciate how the overall problem that you are trying to solve is more difficult than mine: you are trying to work out how to promote and sell new products, whereas I am trying to maximize the benefit of my free software time. (And I could be right to suggest that maximizing community benefit is a path to commercial success, but I could equally well be wrong; I just don't have the experience to know. In my free software project there are similar issues: with limited resource, should we concentrate on fixing bugs, and working on specific things that people report on the mailing list, or should we ignore those and work on big sexy new features? I don't yet know there either!) Just a couple of further comments below... > The problem is not that much on the performance side. Performance is of > course a problem but in our opinion not as big as the differences in use > cases and UI requirements for a small touchscreen. I completely agree that the UI requirement differences are very challenging. I just don't think that we have yet fully explored the possibilities for addressing this within the infrastructure, as opposed to by modifying application level code. I'm thinking of things like transparent, overlaying, application-specific keyboards; pervasive and easy ability to zoom and pan what you are seeing on screen; arbitrary mapping of available hardware buttons to input events that make sense to applications; and so on - by definition this list is not complete. > I don't know developers not willing to produce software that users find > amazing and fall in love with. Ok, in fact I know some ;) but you get > my point. I do. But I'm worried you're missing amazing applications that already exist. As well as supporting new development, what about asking for recommendations of existing apps that would be great on the tablets, with a little polish? >> (Note that "writing" here includes activities like packaging. In an >> ideal world, I would only have to package each new version of my >> software once, upload the source package to Debian, and everything >> else would follow from that. Note that this has now been achieved for >> the Openmoko phone, so it is entirely possible.) > > Even if it's technically possible, there is something no technology > solves (at least nowadays): the use cases for someone in the move with a > device in their pockets are different from someone sitting with a > computer on the table. For many apps just this is critical. Yes, but I think the Debian people would say that they want to include mobile stuff too, not just desktop. Hence (1) there may already be suitable mobile apps there; (2) even if not, it would still (I think) be a good distribution channel for future mobile apps, plus infrastructure needed for them. >> - the existence of hildon. > > Hildon is available in Debian and Ubuntu. That's good, sorry for not checking that myself first; it means I should be able to push my hildon bindings upstream too! > It covers features important > in the mobile context that GTK+ is not covering as for today. I hadn't appreciated that, through just using the widgets. Is there a write up of this somewhere? Regards, Neil ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Something else (was Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)))
Whoops, wrong button .. -- Forwarded message -- 2008/10/24 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Quoting koos vriezen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> 2008/10/24 David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> for maemo is pyrecipe (http://pyrecipe.garage.maemo.org/ ). > > Pyrecipe is a great app, not fully matured (as Daniel Yerga will > probably admit) but is something that could be a 'deal breaker' for > some. Love it and I hope to see it on the next platform, albeit with > more snazzier graphics and video playback :) It was more of a notice how far we are of of something apparently successful on that platform. Pyrecipe is a kind of db frontend. The nintendo version is more of cooking aid, and looking at the videos, it really looks like fun. Don't know if videos are a solution, they tend to be rather big. In that case why not just take an app that searches cooking epiosodes on youtube and watch them directly. Thing with video, or flash to get some interactivity, is who's going to create them. A bit of googling didn't give me any comics animation framework, maybe squeak is something to look at. Surely one wants to control the speed, replay/skip parts, ideally without touching the device with sticky fingers :) Anyhow, Koos ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
"ext Andrew Flegg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > It's somewhat facetious, but after some discussion in the community > one thing jumps out: we want the Application Manager to be such a > star. Ohh, cool. An intriguing long-term idea is to use PackageKit in maemo, and spread the package management out over the platform as a service: the theme selector would offer "downloadable themes", the task launcher would have a "Install more applications" button, etc, and only applicable packages would be offered. > However, it's not clear how much love Nokia are going to be putting > into Application Manager in fremantle and (personally) I think it's > going to be, more than ever, the most important bundled app with the > tablets. > > The community *are* going to start providing patches, but having some > committment from Nokia to work *together* to make this the best app > would be awesome. I am certainly ready and willing, to review patches, to make releases, and give guidance if needed. I would have to shift some priorities to get the time needed, but that can be done. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Ryan Abel wrote: > What about something like powerlaunch? Music playback is a pretty > common use case, and having to take the tablet out of your pocket to > change the volume or the song is a pain. Some hooks into dsme/mce so > you can issue commands with the screen turned off would be a nice > feature. It would be even more helpful if these things can be used by apps directly, i.e. send D-BUS messages which hardware keys are pressed when the screen is locked, just like what we can already do with the headset button. This way, we can implement hardware key handing in every app with the locked screen, too. Thomas ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo & Linux mainstream again (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Hi Carsten, thank you very much for the time, energies and skills you are putting in the Deblet project, and in this thread. http://wiki.maemo.org/Mainstream_Linux_Alignment was born this morning in a humble corner of the wiki. Let's compile there all the bugs and enhancement requests relating to upstream alignment and compatibility with Debian/Ubuntu. I already created some bugs from the feedback received at http://flors.wordpress.com/2008/10/24/distro-zen-question-of-the-day/#comment-1493 - if you (plural) can extract more bugs submitted from the discussion in this thread that would be great. Let's avoid having the mailing list as sole place for discussion. ext Carsten V. Munk wrote: > we've tried to > take fairly standard Maemo platform applications and put them on let's > say later versions of Debian, with Hildon, with quite a lot of hardships > caused by this. Are these stories documented anywhere? We are putting a lot of development in Hildon & GTK+ making them work better together. At the moment the team is quite busy with the short term execution but once we reach e.g. beta it will be a good time to have a discussion about Hildon's mid term strategy and how it fits with the new GTK+ plans. > Reconstruct Maemo - take the latest packages from Debian or Ubuntu, stay > consistent in package naming, it's been a long while since you forked. > - sure, build them with device specific optimizations, but keep up > when there's new releases. Sure, customize with busybox and such, but, > in the process of rebuilding the base system platform, release scripts > for bootstrapping a Maemo image, keep the system development open > (public SVN like with Hildon) - which would make developers happy in > terms of knowing how the base system is going to change - and adapt to > them before new OS releases come out. Alright, there are two things here: - Take a fresh upstream code when starting a new release like e.g. Ubuntu does. The idea is agreed and we need to come up with a plan to execute it. Related to the question about to whom to align with + some details relating to our own development process and schedules. Filing an enhancement request would be a good start to discuss in details and follow progress. - Keeping the system development open. The idea is agreed and we need to execute it during Fremantle and Harmattan with the goals http://wiki.maemo.org/Objective:Best_community_for_mobile_Linux_innovation and http://wiki.maemo.org/Objective:Release_soon_and_often > Stay out of making closed source solutions for the basic simple UNIX > system setup - for hardware, sure, binary blobs are alright, just don't > let them block kernel updates and such. For power savings, - you've > mentioned using HAL, Upstart and OHM - make closed plugins for OHM, HAL, > sure - they're for the hardware interfacing, - the software and OS > architecture is what people are interested in, because compared to many > other embedded linux, it works quite well, has very little power > consumption and probably has the envy of platform makers. The idea is indeed to have the base system as common and interoperable as possible. You have seen the progress done in the base system and we are continuing the trend. Enhancement requests against specific obstacles in achieving that goal are welcome. > Moving up to user interface - if you're going to do break API, use > seperate directories for the standard API and the embedded API (GTK, > GTKMM for instance). Ship > embedded API in the FIASCO image, sure, - but This sounds like being good beef for Address upstream packages patched - by Nokiahttps://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3827 > add Nokia tablet specific > services, but keep the platform open and keep the development open. I'm not going into the rest of topics but just wanted to say that your sentence above clearly embodies the strategy we have for the Maemo platform. Please file enhancement requests for those additional topics, put me in CC and list them on that wiki page. Thanks again! -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Would VLC (http://www.videolan.org) be a good client ? There was a port for Maemo but it was underpowered. It has the capacity to be embedded and could be a very good all-purpose (all-codec) media player ... Fred ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
What about something like powerlaunch? Music playback is a pretty common use case, and having to take the tablet out of your pocket to change the volume or the song is a pain. Some hooks into dsme/mce so you can issue commands with the screen turned off would be a nice feature. -- Ryan Abel Maemo Community Council chair ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo & Linux mainstream again (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Quim Gil wrote: > The strategy taken for Maemo is different, promoting the direct > collaboration with the relevant upstream projects and going as far as > possible with the open source way of working. Maemo is mostly based of > open source components. Any manufacturer could take that code base and > add their own hardware adaptation and find/develop the set of > applications to offer. As for today Nokia is not interested building a > business out of that. The Maemo team rather invests the money aligning > more and better with the mainstream Linux. From a system/OS developers point of view, Maemo platform developer and a Nokia tablet lover, I have given some thought to what would help some of the frustrations I've had regarding Maemo as a system and as a platform. Some of these frustrations deal with the difficulty of porting applications for the platform, but I also have respect for Maemo being the best user friendly (and quite open) OS around for embedded devices targeted towards users. And obviously that adds to the interest in having applications you write for Maemo would be able to be easily ported to other tablet/portable "less powerful than desktop" devices - but I'm not confident about the statement of "taking that code base" and being able to construct a sane Maemo-like platform - as we've tried to take fairly standard Maemo platform applications and put them on let's say later versions of Debian, with Hildon, with quite a lot of hardships caused by this. What I would love to see in Maemo 5 would be, - not focusing on the user interface or hardware items, but on the Maemo platform itself, under the surface: Reconstruct Maemo - take the latest packages from Debian or Ubuntu, stay consistent in package naming, it's been a long while since you forked. - sure, build them with device specific optimizations, but keep up when there's new releases. Sure, customize with busybox and such, but, in the process of rebuilding the base system platform, release scripts for bootstrapping a Maemo image, keep the system development open (public SVN like with Hildon) - which would make developers happy in terms of knowing how the base system is going to change - and adapt to them before new OS releases come out. Stay out of making closed source solutions for the basic simple UNIX system setup - for hardware, sure, binary blobs are alright, just don't let them block kernel updates and such. For power savings, - you've mentioned using HAL, Upstart and OHM - make closed plugins for OHM, HAL, sure - they're for the hardware interfacing, - the software and OS architecture is what people are interested in, because compared to many other embedded linux, it works quite well, has very little power consumption and probably has the envy of platform makers. See where I'm going with this? People would with this setup take the base of Maemo, port them on to their new tech, giving back to the open source community a platform that can be quickly adapted to new devices. When new devices come out, the applications of those device communities will directly port to Nokia's tablet, leaving Nokia to be able to compete on quality, hardware interfacing, having good karma with the open source community, and specialize in tablet specific differentiations - with people interested in developing their underlying system platform as it benefits them. Just see Windows Mobile - there's -tons- of applications for these devices, due to the pervasiveness of the OS. Nokia/Maemo -could- put themselves in the same position by simply working with upstream, doing some small changes, working with the community, and poof, you have a general platform for tablets - the devices this runs on don't need to be power hungry netbooks, they'll be just fine with a low-power ARM processor at 400mhz. And in connection with the idea of Pervasive Computing, this is a wonderful thing. Low cost, low powered tablets with low power consumption. And this is where the open source community is missing out - proper OS'es for these devices. Moving up to user interface - if you're going to do break API, use seperate directories for the standard API and the embedded API (GTK, GTKMM for instance). Ship embedded API in the FIASCO image, sure, - but use tricks like pkg-config maemo-gtk to make applications "able" to use the embedded extensions (and use launchers to load the specific embedded libraries), and don't make the embedded and standard API be mutually exclusive. For instance, try running Maemo GTK on a window manager that isn't matchbox - it doesn't work well. This would make "porting" easier, and help bringing Maemo GTK vs GTK deltas down as you conciously have to consider if you want to use traditional hildon + GTK or hildon + Maemo GTK. Let's say we want a partition editor for our tablets. It'd be a matter of a recompile, maybe helping a bit along with hildon extensions, but you don't run into the issues of no vfuncs for instance, which breaks the compilati
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > We want to support a bunch of projects getting ready for primetime the > same day maemo 5 is released. And we propose the community to help out > selecting those projects. > > What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development > need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will > do our best helping you. It's somewhat facetious, but after some discussion in the community one thing jumps out: we want the Application Manager to be such a star. >From the community point of view, the reasoning is clear: the Application Manager, and the user experience of it and Extras will be the first contact most end-users have with the "community" directly. As a community, we're trying to firm up the rules on package sections[1], and there've been some discussions with Marius to create some patches to enable subsections etc. However, it's not clear how much love Nokia are going to be putting into Application Manager in fremantle and (personally) I think it's going to be, more than ever, the most important bundled app with the tablets. The community *are* going to start providing patches, but having some committment from Nokia to work *together* to make this the best app would be awesome. Cheers, Andrew [1] http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ maemo.org Community Council member ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Something else (was Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)))
Hi. On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:51:24 +0100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Quoting koos vriezen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > 2008/10/24 David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > for maemo is pyrecipe (http://pyrecipe.garage.maemo.org/ ). > > Pyrecipe is a great app, not fully matured (as Daniel Yerga will > probably admit) but is something that could be a 'deal breaker' for > some. Love it and I hope to see it on the next platform, albeit with > more snazzier graphics and video playback :) Yeah, I fully admit it ;) I started developing pyrecipe because the Gourmet port was too heavy and it had many bugs to fix, and I did prefer write something from scratch. Improvements are coming in the next month (but still not at all spectacular). I also have thought in video support, it would be really cool. Also some way to exchange recipes among users in an online mode, comment and rate other user recipes, and so on. Of course, I would be very glad if Nokia supports pyrecipe for a Fremantle star (and who not?). Regards. -- Daniel Martin Yerga http://yerga.net ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Graham Cobb wrote: > On Friday 24 October 2008 16:46:12 Sarah Newman wrote: >> David Greaves wrote: >>> I propose: >>> * The GPE suite (especially synchronising) >>> * Canola (some limitations that become annoying quickly) >> GPE seconded FWIW. I might be able to help with finger-friendliness and >> maybe location-based task reminders (as I have the time, no kidding this >> is short for many of us.) > > I didn't suggest GPE because I had the impression that Nokia may have plans > to > solve the PIM problem in some different way (some other app?) So, lets see if their money and mouths match ;) Rather than "not invented here" - lets see a superb foundation enhanced in ways that benefit the linux ecosystem at large... David ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Sarah Newman wrote: > David Greaves wrote: > >> I propose: >> * The GPE suite (especially synchronising) >> * Canola (some limitations that become annoying quickly) >> > > GPE seconded FWIW. I might be able to help with finger-friendliness and > maybe location-based task reminders (as I have the time, no kidding this > is short for many of us.) > > My two pain points with GPE are sync'ing with outlook/exchange and lack of libalarm/alarmtool integration. I need the tablet to wake up to remind me of appointments if my tablet is off. Jason ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Something else (was Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)))
Quoting koos vriezen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > 2008/10/24 David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > for maemo is pyrecipe (http://pyrecipe.garage.maemo.org/ ). Pyrecipe is a great app, not fully matured (as Daniel Yerga will probably admit) but is something that could be a 'deal breaker' for some. Love it and I hope to see it on the next platform, albeit with more snazzier graphics and video playback :) > Koos Regards, Jamie ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo & Linux mainstream (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Quoting Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > ext Neil Jerram wrote: >> 2. The timescale is too short. Either people already have most of >> their time committed for the next few months, or they don't. I would >> venture that those with time on their hands are mostly unlikely to be >> people who could pull a project together in this timescale, and to the >> quality that you are looking for. > > Short time and shortage of resources for impressive native applications > developed from scratch on a volunteering basis? Probably, yes. I think I'm with Quim in saying that if the desire is strong enough then the timescale is more than realistic. I want to see app's using the capabilities of the next Nokia based hardware platform to their fullest. I'm full of idea's (its part of my job) but why not : * Location based geo tagging of *people* and *places* - take a photo (with the high res camera of your Maemo 5 based device) and with the use of pattern and face recognition it automatically tags not just your location, your subject matter too depending on your past log history! THEN uploads it to your favorite online photo sharing site (ovi, flickr, e.t.c) AND why not mesh it with others ala photosynth[1] for a community mapping of the given site? * Use the GPS to 'navigate' you to 'like minded' people. People with the same tastes in music (I've got nothing to do tonight, I like indie music, where is everyone else with that profile?). I'm a Maemo developer attending the summit and lost on the U-Bahn in Berlin and would like some help? (It definitely happened to me!). * Give a complete and immersive media environment. Full on Music (geo and last.fm integrated), videos, photos (tied to other peoples photos of the same location), ... (see one of my other projects at http://www.entertainer-project.com). I could go on for a long time. The fact being, all these apps, all these ways we use our future tablets, could be a reality and in the right hands, 3-6 months of development time is all you really need to make a splash! I think it is possible but I would hope that Nokia look 'outside the box'. There are great applications that will port to the next generation of tablets that could of never been considered before. The current crop could also be there but will they really 'shine' when you have high-definition video playback, fast processing speed, more memory, more CPU, more expectations? I would be willing to put myself out on a limb and say that many of the current offerings, if ported to a beagle board [1] today, would not make the grade. Don't get me wrong, they may be useful, but will they showcase what WE have to offer? We need something more, something that showcases the platform's capabilities and takes it further. I hope 'future' apps (and I really want to see new and exciting/ingenious apps) takes not only Maemo forward, but also Linux in general. Regards, Jamie. [1] http://beagleboard.org/ [2] http://livelabs.com/photosynth/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Something else (was Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)))
2008/10/24 David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Quim Gil wrote: >> More? > > I propose: > * The GPE suite (especially synchronising) > * Canola (some limitations that become annoying quickly) (btw. wouldn't support for mesh networking and direct voip calls be just a killer?) Anyhow, today at my office we talked about cooking with Nintendo DS (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re7A28sZ-JM ). What I found so far for maemo is pyrecipe (http://pyrecipe.garage.maemo.org/ ). Now with a nice animation framework, that would bring fun in the kitchen, no? (of course I hope someone to reply that it's already there) Koos ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Graham Cobb wrote: > o Extending Opensync to non-PIM objects such as photos. No, that's probably solved by http://www.conduit-project.org/ already. Which would be nice to have on Maemo - and (using the search function there) seems to be kind of available for Maemo already: http://www.conduit-project.org/wiki/0.3.5 (search for "Maemo" there) I don't know how far support goes, but Conduit sounds like an interesting project. Thomas ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
On Friday 24 October 2008 16:46:12 Sarah Newman wrote: > David Greaves wrote: > > I propose: > > * The GPE suite (especially synchronising) > > * Canola (some limitations that become annoying quickly) > > GPE seconded FWIW. I might be able to help with finger-friendliness and > maybe location-based task reminders (as I have the time, no kidding this > is short for many of us.) I didn't suggest GPE because I had the impression that Nokia may have plans to solve the PIM problem in some different way (some other app?) in about the Freemantle timeframe. Not sure where I got that impression from -- probably something someone said at the Summit. But quite likely not even true! I would be very happy if Nokia did want to support GPE (for example, rewriting the GPE contacts database to share the database with the built-in contacts app or sending/receiving contacts/events to/from phones over bluetooth). If Nokia did not want to support GPE itself, I would suggest considering Opensync as a way to improve integration with Nokia (and other manufacturers) mobile phones. The previous version of Opensync runs on Maemo -- I have not had time to get the current version running but it isn't far away. Opensync itself is running way behind schedule (the new version is a complete rewrite and is not yet fully usable). But the tablet really needs a user friendly graphical UI to control opensync: with that I think there are some interesting things that could be done with Opensync on the tablet. Some examples: o Automatic or semi-automatic synchronisation when specific bluetooth devices (phones, or PCs) are nearby. o Sync over USB (particularly with Outlook). o Use of avahi to allow tablets (and PCs) on a local WLAN to find each other and sync (with appropriate security of course). o Extending Opensync to non-PIM objects such as photos. I see the tablet being a useful "central point" for syncing various devices (take the tablet to work and sync with your work PC, take it home and sync with your home PC and your partner's PDA, sync with your phone, take it to your friend's house and sync football matches with him, etc.). Actually I really see that as part of a more general better "Phone Integration". For example, it is ridiculous that the tablet can't send and receive SMS and MMS through a paired phone. Graham ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hello Quim we develop http://retromessenger.sf.net and apply as well for nokia support. Thanks for a feedback Max On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm a bit surprised about the little discussion generated by our call to > support cool projects. > > http://flors.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-innovators/ > http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/001090.html > > Was the call so casual that it ended up being unclear? > > We want to support a bunch of projects getting ready for primetime the > same day maemo 5 is released. And we propose the community to help out > selecting those projects. > > What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development > need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will > do our best helping you. > > If you have questions ask. But don't let this for next week because we > would like to have a list of proposals by the end of the month, decide > soon the projects to support and start working with them. > > -- > Quim Gil > marketing manager, open source > Maemo Software @ Nokia > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
I would add Pimlico apps from OpenHand... It would be nice adding Remember the Milk API [1](tasks based in location)... I've been researching a bit using RTM python API [1] http://www.rememberthemilk.com/services/api/ 2008/10/24, Sarah Newman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > David Greaves wrote: > > I propose: > > * The GPE suite (especially synchronising) > > * Canola (some limitations that become annoying quickly) > > GPE seconded FWIW. I might be able to help with finger-friendliness and > maybe location-based task reminders (as I have the time, no kidding this > is short for many of us.) > > > > > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://www.jsmanrique.es ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
I think, PIM's in Handheld devices with GPS should also embrace location based services. Traditionally PIM have been a time based application. Other than an action taking place on a "when", it should also consider actions on a "where". ~m~ Varghese > > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:11 AM, David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Quim Gil wrote: >>> More? >> >> I propose: >> * The GPE suite (especially synchronising) >> * Canola (some limitations that become annoying quickly) >> >> David >> >> > ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
David Greaves wrote: > I propose: > * The GPE suite (especially synchronising) > * Canola (some limitations that become annoying quickly) GPE seconded FWIW. I might be able to help with finger-friendliness and maybe location-based task reminders (as I have the time, no kidding this is short for many of us.) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: PIM stuff (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Quim Gil wrote: > More? I propose: * The GPE suite (especially synchronising) * Canola (some limitations that become annoying quickly) David -- "Don't worry, you'll be fine; I saw it work in a cartoon once..." ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Maemo & Linux mainstream (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Hi, ext Quim Gil wrote: > I don't know developers not willing to produce software that users find > amazing and fall in love with. Ok, in fact I know some ;) but you get > my point. > > Differentiation, in the way Nokia understands differentiation, is > nothing we are looking for in this call. What Nokia sees in Maemo 5 is a > very good chance to get pure community (and yes, open source) software > in the hands of pure end users - and impress them, for the software > itself and they way it is being developed. Just like many of us were > impressed when we discovered community software development in the > desktop, now in the mobile context. > > If the Fremantle stars become stars in other platforms as well, all the > better! I guess the thing could be also something useless, but well done & whimsical like this: http://blog.laptopmag.com/best-most-useless-iphone-application-phonesaber - Eero (scripting languages should be enough for something like this :-)) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Maemo & Linux mainstream again (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
(let's keep this in -developers to avoid cross-posting to -users as well) This mail is about the relationship with Linux mainstream in general, Debian/Ubuntu particularly. Moblin, LiMo, OpenMoko to be considered in this view as well. The principle is clear: we want to align as much as possible. The implementation is less clear though, due to several factors: - Align to what? There is not a single common reference as for today. - Which technological approaches prevail? There are different technical approaches not always easy to combine or make one prevail. - There is something around organizational aspects that needs to be considered too: how to move platform development processes closer between the Maemo team and whoever we align with. A year ago or so Eero came up with a table comparison showing the essential differences between Maemo, Debian and Ubuntu (where is it? couldn't find it). In this time some things have changed in these 3 projects and perhaps now the differences are less. ext lakestevensdental wrote: > If Nokia is really serious about being a larger player, they ought to > aggressively develop and license the Maemo tablet OS to other > manufacturers so that it has an opportunity to become a dominant player > in the this growing market niche instead of just another somewhat > self-limiting (soon to be abandoned) proprietary sand castle. Nokia is already a large player, knowing perfectly well the licensing model through Symbian/S60. The strategy taken for Maemo is different, promoting the direct collaboration with the relevant upstream projects and going as far as possible with the open source way of working. Maemo is mostly based of open source components. Any manufacturer could take that code base and add their own hardware adaptation and find/develop the set of applications to offer. As for today Nokia is not interested building a business out of that. The Maemo team rather invests the money aligning more and better with the mainstream Linux. > Perhaps the OS might be set up as an independent entity to manage > aggressive development and spread of the platform. Stockholders would > get a break in licensing fees dependent upon their status with Nokia > currently the 100% stocker owner. If PadsRUs has a tablet device that > needs an OS, they could buy X licenses for $Y, or buy stock in the OS > and buy X licenses for less that $Y, related to their stock investment > in the project. That's basically the game of Symbian/S60, and even that is changing to an almost royalty-free approach: http://www.symbianfoundation.org/ We have 0 plans of moving Maemo into that direction. > As it is, with other tablets, like Archos, coming out with their own > OS/Linux variants, it seems the market is going in the direction of > being more and more fractured with lots of reinventing of the same OS > wheels over and over. The market would probably benefit having some > central organization to manage and develop the OS so that hardware folks > could focus more on developing cost effective powerful hardware rather > than both hardware and OS/software. This is what the Symbian folks say as well. ;) But what is the point here in maemo-developers? It is basically the API. Developers would like to have ideally the same API in different platforms so it doesn't matter what components you have underneath, the applications always run. Less work put on boring porting/maintenance and more time available for exciting new development. For Maemo, collaboration upstream is the essential medicine to that pain. This is how Linux projects have been fighting the issues related to diversity (which as such is seen as a good thing). ext Ryan Abel wrote: > Rather than building Maemo up as yet-another-Linux-distro, I'd > _rather_ see Nokia come inline with upstream and essentially ship > Ubuntu or Debian, but with their own differentiation on top. As said above, agreed in the principle and willing to discuss the implementation. > Though, if speculation based on certain rumors is to be believe, this > may actually already be happening. Give it another 6 months and I'm > sure we'll know for sure. What are these rumors? fwiw I would also like to a have a plan in place in 6 months. Those of you with good knowledge of Maemo and involved in other distros can play a role in this process. Feel free moving from rumors and guesses to wiki pages and real discussion. ext Ian wrote: > This makes a lot of sense and has been suggested numerous times on > this list already. Dude, an Ubuntu based maemo (or maemo based ubuntu > ;) would seriously rock. Handing over (collaborating on) the distro > with Ubuntu (which they evidently do very well) would allow Nokia to > concentrate on what it does very well which is shipping extremely well > tested, consumer accessible devices to lots of markets with reduced > economies of scale. Sure. However as for today there is no Ubuntu productized for ARM, so it's not a
Maemo & Linux mainstream (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Thanks for the very good feedback! There is a common thread going down to the Maemo platform and its relationship with Debian/Ubuntu aka Linux mainstream. This is a discussion started many times, let's hope this time we move it forward to higher stages. Answering to Till and Neil, who came up with requirements difficult to combine: mobile uniqueness versus API compatibility across several platforms. ext Till Harbaum / Lists wrote: > Is this really clever? Is this really what Nokia has to say about their new > plattform? "Look, our new plattform is finally good enough to run > software that is well established on these other plattforms"? 50% agreed. It would be deceiving that all the Fremantle starts would be ports. But it would be to ignore all the good work done in the Linux desktop and not bring anything from that to Maemo 5 users (most of them probably never Linux users before, by the way). We need to find a good balance reusing what exists in order to concentrate in whatever doesn't exist yet. Agreed because indeed projects like e.g. Gimp, OpenOffice.org and etc ported to Maemo are interesting from a technical and experimental point of view, but as such are not the cases that would drive the platform innovation and the products its end users will dream about. The problem is not that much on the performance side. Performance is of course a problem but in our opinion not as big as the differences in use cases and UI requirements for a small touchscreen. Gnumeric in your pocket? Sure, but... On the other hand, Nokia sees a value in the fact that standard Linux components do run in your pocket without needing embedded versions. Maemo has diffs with Debian/Ubuntu we want to minimize, but still Maemo is mostly a Linux standard OS. Just compare with the average Linux embedded variants shippedm in devices fitting in your pockets. In this sense there is nothing intrinsically bad in desktop applications keeping the very same engines and concentrating on a UI focused on the mobile use cases. For instance, nobody is thinking of creating a new browser engine since the way to go is optimize the current desktop browser engines (and the desktop users benefit from this too). But note that nobody is seriously attempting the keep a desktop browser UI in a mobile platform. ext Neil Jerram wrote: > I sense two fundamental problems here. > > 1. You (Quim) are looking for applications that will help > differentiate the next Internet Tablet. But differentiation is > contrary to the interests of the majority of the community. I don't know developers not willing to produce software that users find amazing and fall in love with. Ok, in fact I know some ;) but you get my point. Differentiation, in the way Nokia understands differentiation, is nothing we are looking for in this call. What Nokia sees in Maemo 5 is a very good chance to get pure community (and yes, open source) software in the hands of pure end users - and impress them, for the software itself and they way it is being developed. Just like many of us were impressed when we discovered community software development in the desktop, now in the mobile context. If the Fremantle stars become stars in other platforms as well, all the better! > 2. The timescale is too short. Either people already have most of > their time committed for the next few months, or they don't. I would > venture that those with time on their hands are mostly unlikely to be > people who could pull a project together in this timescale, and to the > quality that you are looking for. Short time and shortage of resources for impressive native applications developed from scratch on a volunteering basis? Probably, yes. But we think time is not too short for - Push existing projects to a certain goal. - Merge several one-guy adventures into something stronger. - Develop brilliant ideas connecting existing components and new features. - Develop from scratch brilliant ideas requiring a light execution via e.g. Mozilla add-ons, Python etc. We could find many examples already in the Linux and Mozilla communities. These days we are seeing good examples coming also from the emerging Android and iPhone platforms. Something to learn from there? > (2) is self-explanatory. To expand on (1) a bit... My time for free > software is limited, and the best outcome for me is if I can use that > time to write something once, and then have it automagically show up > and run on the widest possible set of devices: my computer, internet > tablet, phone, and so on. Yes, we understand. There is no perfect solution for that today. We see different approaches to tackle that going through Mozilla add-ons, Python runtime, Qt API and probably more. > (Note that "writing" here includes activities like packaging. In an > ideal world, I would only have to package each new version of my > software once, upload the source package to Debian, and everything > else would follow from that. Note that this
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi, > Rather than building Maemo up as yet-another-Linux-distro, I'd > _rather_ see Nokia come inline with upstream and essentially ship > Ubuntu or Debian, but with their own differentiation on top. This makes a lot of sense and has been suggested numerous times on this list already. Dude, an Ubuntu based maemo (or maemo based ubuntu ;) would seriously rock. Handing over (collaborating on) the distro with Ubuntu (which they evidently do very well) would allow Nokia to concentrate on what it does very well which is shipping extremely well tested, consumer accessible devices to lots of markets with reduced economies of scale. > already open, somebody just needs to package it up to a sufficiently > usable state for other platforms (it's already in Debian and Ubuntu, > but simply installing it doesn't quite get you where you want to be). The problem with Hildon is the GTKWindow to HildonWindow substitution which is the root of what Neil was talking about (this is not a criticism just an observation). Anything which means my app is not write once run anywhere is a bug as far as I am concerned Ian -- http://ianlawrence.info ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Oct 23, 2008, at 2:26 PM, lakestevensdental wrote: > If Nokia is really serious about being a larger player, they ought to > aggressively develop and license the Maemo tablet OS to other > manufacturers so that it has an opportunity to become a dominant > player > in the this growing market niche instead of just another somewhat > self-limiting (soon to be abandoned) proprietary sand castle. Rather than building Maemo up as yet-another-Linux-distro, I'd _rather_ see Nokia come inline with upstream and essentially ship Ubuntu or Debian, but with their own differentiation on top. Hildon is already open, somebody just needs to package it up to a sufficiently usable state for other platforms (it's already in Debian and Ubuntu, but simply installing it doesn't quite get you where you want to be). Though, if speculation based on certain rumors is to be believe, this may actually already be happening. Give it another 6 months and I'm sure we'll know for sure. > As it is, with other tablets, like Archos, coming out with their own > OS/Linux variants, it seems the market is going in the direction of > being more and more fractured with lots of reinventing of the same OS > wheels over and over. The market would probably benefit having some > central organization to manage and develop the OS so that hardware > folks > could focus more on developing cost effective powerful hardware rather > than both hardware and OS/software. Archos is a bad example. I doubt they'd ever be interested in anything than their own proprietary, accessory peddling mess. -- Ryan Abel Maemo Community Council chair ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
I sense two fundamental problems here. 1. You (Quim) are looking for applications that will help differentiate the next Internet Tablet. But differentiation is contrary to the interests of the majority of the community. 2. The timescale is too short. Either people already have most of their time committed for the next few months, or they don't. I would venture that those with time on their hands are mostly unlikely to be people who could pull a project together in this timescale, and to the quality that you are looking for. (2) is self-explanatory. To expand on (1) a bit... My time for free software is limited, and the best outcome for me is if I can use that time to write something once, and then have it automagically show up and run on the widest possible set of devices: my computer, internet tablet, phone, and so on. (Note that "writing" here includes activities like packaging. In an ideal world, I would only have to package each new version of my software once, upload the source package to Debian, and everything else would follow from that. Note that this has now been achieved for the Openmoko phone, so it is entirely possible.) So, for me, anything that requires me to "port", or to do something differently for the Nokia tablets, is a negative. A couple of specific examples are - the /var/lib/install thing in the first 770 OS ... thankfully now long gone - the existence of hildon. And so here are a couple of project ideas. 1. Work on a Gtk+ theme, and changes if needed to the upstream Gtk+ project, so that any existing Gtk+ app will run (without any porting) on the tablet and look as good as hildonized apps do today. 2. Organize the system so that the Debian arm repository can be used as is. If you did that, there would be 100s of existing apps that would run and look good - which for me would be a far more powerful selling point than one or two specific applications written specifically for the tablet. I hope that's useful. I appreciate it will probably come across as an extreme viewpoint, and perhaps I should spend more time before sending to try to develop a more reasonable intermediate proposal - but I don't have time for that right now. Best wishes, Neil ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Notes, sketches, paintings... (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 10:19 +0300, Quim Gil wrote: > And few days ago there were these screenshots of some kind of Inkscape > lite (couldn't find the link). This was mostly a menu hack. When I've looked at putting Inkscape on the tablets there were two basic problems. One, we weren't using GTK Toolbars so that things wouldn't resize to the smaller screen. The second was RAM usage. Anything moderately complex would start to become a problem. This is in progress, as one of the major goals of switching to Cairo for the renderer is memory usage. As much of this is done, it might be worth looking into some with trunk. There is, of course, more that could be done to make Inkscape run well on the tablets. And, I'm guessing, that newer tablets will have more RAM than older ones so the point may be moot. > Add real time online collaboration (like Inkscape has) The Inkboard support in Inkscape isn't great. One of the biggest pluses is that it uses Jabber, which is also it's biggest minus. Because most Jabber servers use karma to limit connections they detect sending SVG fragments as "abuse" and restrict the bandwidth to the point that it's unusable. This has made it difficult to get a community behind it. What I think the solution there, short term (no replacing all the Jabber servers on the Internet), is to use link-local connections for the documents. Then the server is local, and doesn't care and people can still have two tablets next to each other and work on a document. To do this I think that Inkscape should be moved to Telepathy so that their XMPP link-local support can just be stolen :) There is also a XML sync protocol that is draft form at the Jabber Foundation called SXA. It provides generic XML document syncing and also point-to-point support ala Jingle. It still retains the MUC support too. If we all (all document sync folks) standardized on one protocol I'm sure the Jabber servers would start routing it differently. Now, I've listed a bunch of things, what would I like for Christmas from Santa Nokia? I think the biggest 'core' help that could happen long term is to add SXA support into Telepathy. Then all of these different apps would have an easy way to add document sync in. --Ted signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi, i see many ports in that list, not only Xournal, but also scummvm etc. While these are nice apps, i really wonder about the fact that Nokia is planning to advertise their new plattform with the fact that it now can run software that has been developed for other plattforms and has been used there for quite some time now. Is this really clever? Is this really what Nokia has to say about their new plattform? "Look, our new plattform is finally good enough to run software that is well established on these other plattforms"? This sounds like palm did in its last days when their "innovation" was their ability to do windows-ce-lookalike stuff and to implement features that other plattforms already had for ages ... Till Am Mittwoch 22 Oktober 2008 schrieb Aniello Del Sorbo: > Hi, > > Xournal has already been inserted in the list of proposed Fremantle apps. > Just waiting for the final list to be ... final. > I'll continue my work on Xournal anyway, but knowing that it is among the Star > applications for Maemo 5, would surely boost the time I would spend on it. > > :-) > > Aniello > > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm a bit surprised about the little discussion generated by our call to > > support cool projects. > > > > http://flors.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-innovators/ > > http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/001090.html > > > > Was the call so casual that it ended up being unclear? > > > > We want to support a bunch of projects getting ready for primetime the > > same day maemo 5 is released. And we propose the community to help out > > selecting those projects. > > > > What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development > > need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will > > do our best helping you. > > > > If you have questions ask. But don't let this for next week because we > > would like to have a list of proposals by the end of the month, decide > > soon the projects to support and start working with them. > > > > -- > > Quim Gil > > marketing manager, open source > > Maemo Software @ Nokia > > ___ > > maemo-developers mailing list > > maemo-developers@maemo.org > > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > > > > > ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Notes, sketches, paintings... (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
Actually the Xournal developer was working on adding on-line collaboration to Xournal and I was planning to try to help him as soon as I would have a stable Diablo version with full Hildon integration. I am more than welcome to join other Maemo developers on trying to make a union of all the features in one (or more) note taking-like applications. Main issue is: the code base. Which one we choose ? Many of us throw lot of love in their own project, and I am sure not many of us would be happy to drop it and join another project. What I see in the future, is to come up with some commond underlying code that would benefit all of our projects. For example a common framework for on-line collaboration that would be independent of the application. Thus a Xournal user could collaborate in real-time with a Maemodpad+ user for example. We could also agree on a common format to save the notes. Stuff like that so that the user is free to switch applications to take advantage of the specific feature that Application may provide. Aniello On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 8:19 AM, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > gary liquid wrote: >> I obviously think Nokia can support my project. > > ext Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: >> Xournal has already been inserted in the list of proposed Fremantle apps. > > In an ideal world, a team of excellent developers would collaborate > bringing to Maemo the definitive sketching app thought for a portable > touchscreen always connected. > > Ignoring philosophies and underlying technologies, all the elements are > there in good open source and community mood: > > Liqbase: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/liqbase/ > > MaemoPad+: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/maemopadplus/ > > My paint: > http://www.internettablettalk.com/2008/04/04/transformative-apps-for-the-internet-tablet/ > > Xournal: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/xournal/ > > And few days ago there were these screenshots of some kind of Inkscape > lite (couldn't find the link). > > More? > > Add real time online collaboration (like Inkscape has) and something to > blur the borders with pictures (like Xournal blurs borders with PDFs) > and you would have the ultimate creative tool in your pocket. > > Is this technically insane? Probably, but users don't care. :) > > If a team would come up with such love story we would do our best > getting the additional support needed to make it happen. The alternative > scenario of having to choose 1-2 of these projects to get half way is > less enticing. > > -- > Quim Gil > marketing manager, open source > Maemo Software @ Nokia > -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
ext Kamen Bundev wrote: > Isn't it more logical to wait for the alpha SDK before we start projects > for Fremantle? Sure thing, you will need an alpha and even the beta SDK to really know all the details of what you want to do. However, you don't need an SDK to think of an existing or a new project that could impress real users with the elements already known about Maemo 5. We can invest the time on brainstorming, proposals and selection now, warming up motors as time permits. The selected projects can go ahead with planning, we can organize the support agreed with them and when the SDK goes out the pure development can start. > At least i don't have right now enough knowledge on the > maemo 5 platform and what i can do with it. I can start a project now > (or more likely renew/retarget existing one), but what will happen if > the platform can't handle it later? Guess / bet / dream. But most importantly, propose. We do know what Fremantle brings so if a proposal goes far beyond we simply won't select it. Or we might select it anyway since 95% of the cool stuff might be indeed feasible. Don't be obsessed by our selection. The fact of having a project defined publicly aspiring to become a Fremantle Star is more important! You show your intentions and you might get contributions and synergies from others. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Aren't we getting too obsessed with the details? :) ext Dave Neary wrote: > So, as long as the project is free software, all 3? Community is a requirement, free software is not. Between a non-profit developer working in community mood with some freedom (like Henrik when he started Mauku) or a corporation producing pure free software with some community (like Sun Microsystems and OOo) the first is a better candidate for this call. > Companies looking to > have development funded, developers looking to make a living off their > project, and other volunteer developers looking simply for more help are > all in your target group? "Companies" is a vague term. You are a company and a single man. Nokia is a company with thousands of employees. Again, "community" is the word. Yes, we might consider projects with some kind of professional setting behind but this is not the type of action Forum Nokia drives to get commercial and professional developers to work on Nokia platforms. > Again, the question is something like: what's > the result of being selected as a "winner"? Again, we will help you impressing real users the day Maemo 5 goes out. Different projects need different help and this is why we are not offering a defined package in advance. We think it's better to look for those key projects now and then listen to their needs. Dave, why I keep not explaining myself? Is it perhaps because this sounds to one of those developer programs where winners get a fixed amount of money, gadgets or a trip to Las Vegas? This is not one of those, otherwise it would be highly regulated with terms and dates. There is a reason why this started with a simple mail discussion, like communities discuss. As we saw yesterday, only the discussion is already helpful for some developers and projects. And I expect this exercise to be useful not only for the projects selected but to anybody looking for feedback and help to make her project a Fremantle Star. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Notes, sketches, paintings... (was Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?))
gary liquid wrote: > I obviously think Nokia can support my project. ext Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: > Xournal has already been inserted in the list of proposed Fremantle apps. In an ideal world, a team of excellent developers would collaborate bringing to Maemo the definitive sketching app thought for a portable touchscreen always connected. Ignoring philosophies and underlying technologies, all the elements are there in good open source and community mood: Liqbase: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/liqbase/ MaemoPad+: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/maemopadplus/ My paint: http://www.internettablettalk.com/2008/04/04/transformative-apps-for-the-internet-tablet/ Xournal: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/xournal/ And few days ago there were these screenshots of some kind of Inkscape lite (couldn't find the link). More? Add real time online collaboration (like Inkscape has) and something to blur the borders with pictures (like Xournal blurs borders with PDFs) and you would have the ultimate creative tool in your pocket. Is this technically insane? Probably, but users don't care. :) If a team would come up with such love story we would do our best getting the additional support needed to make it happen. The alternative scenario of having to choose 1-2 of these projects to get half way is less enticing. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Quim, and of course let us allow that those 1 or 2 could include girls as well as guys. Best Regards, John Holmblad Acadia Secure Networks, LLC * * Quim Gil wrote: > ext Andrea Grandi wrote: > >> I still don't know if I can propose an application that is not started yet. >> > > What counts is whether it can be a complete product when Maemo 5 is > released. The beta SDK is expected to be available on March-May, do your > math. > > What also counts is a developer or a team behind that you can trust. 12 > totally unknown developers with a great and amazing idea count probably > less that 1-2 guys known for developing A, B, C proposing something > still cool but doable. > > This was discussed already at > http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/001143.html > > You might want also have a look at the rest of the thread starting at > http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/thread.html#1090 > > ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi, Xournal has already been inserted in the list of proposed Fremantle apps. Just waiting for the final list to be ... final. I'll continue my work on Xournal anyway, but knowing that it is among the Star applications for Maemo 5, would surely boost the time I would spend on it. :-) Aniello On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm a bit surprised about the little discussion generated by our call to > support cool projects. > > http://flors.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-innovators/ > http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/001090.html > > Was the call so casual that it ended up being unclear? > > We want to support a bunch of projects getting ready for primetime the > same day maemo 5 is released. And we propose the community to help out > selecting those projects. > > What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development > need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will > do our best helping you. > > If you have questions ask. But don't let this for next week because we > would like to have a list of proposals by the end of the month, decide > soon the projects to support and start working with them. > > -- > Quim Gil > marketing manager, open source > Maemo Software @ Nokia > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi, Quim Gil wrote: > ext Dave Neary wrote: >> It's a little unclear whether it's targeting volunteer developers >> working on this in their spare time who might be interested in making a >> living on it, or companies who are working on free software, or >> volunteers who just want a hand, but are very happy staying volunteers. > > We are referring here to community projects, which imply open planning > and development. In practice this calls primarily to volunteers and open > source code but maybe there are exceptions worth considering - you decide. So, as long as the project is free software, all 3? Companies looking to have development funded, developers looking to make a living off their project, and other volunteer developers looking simply for more help are all in your target group? Again, the question is something like: what's the result of being selected as a "winner"? Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi, On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:14 +0200, ext Andrea Grandi wrote: > Hi Quim, > > > We want to support a bunch of projects getting ready for primetime the > > same day maemo 5 is released. And we propose the community to help out > > selecting those projects. > > > > What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development > > need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will > > do our best helping you. > > I still don't know if I can propose an application that is not started yet. > Just in case you don't remember, I explain my idea again. > > My goal is creating a "GPS position sharing" client. What this > application will do? I try to explain in few simple steps... We at INdT/Openbossa labs are developing Carman, and one of its features included on the next release (already available at extras-devel!) is InfoSharing. Basically, you connect to a XMPP-based account and share your GPS/OBD (such as GPS coordinates, current speed, RPM) data with your friends. Another user using Carman could share its information with you also. You can, for example, play rally with each other :) Check our website: http://openbossa.indt.org/carman/ Cheers, -- Bruno de Oliveira Abinader Mobile Linux Solutions - MLS Instituto Nokia de Tecnologia - INdT Tel: +55 92 21261068 Mobile: +55 92 84147105 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Uff I really don't like the point 3 of the Yahoo Terms of Service: 3. FEES AND PAYMENTS Yahoo! reserves the right to charge fees for future use of or access to the Fire Eagle Service, or other Yahoo! services and web sites, in Yahoo!'s sole discretion. If Yahoo! decides to charge fees, such charges will be disclosed to you in advance. :( 2008/10/22 Ian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hi >> My goal is creating a "GPS position sharing" client. What this >> application will do? I try to explain in few simple steps... > > did you see fireeagle? > > http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/ > > much easier to use this than write something from scratch > > Ian > -- > http://ianlawrence.info > -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
> >> My goal is creating a "GPS position sharing" client. What this > >> application will do? I try to explain in few simple steps... > > > > did you see fireeagle? > > > > http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/ > > > > much easier to use this than write something from scratch > > that's cool! I'll read the docs! It's exactly what I want :) > This could save me/us a lot of time! The server part is > already done :) To go slightly off-topic, this is exactly the kind of interaction that is self-evidently very useful and we should try to foster and encourage it in general for people's application ideas. Cheers, Simon ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Kamen Bundev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Isn't it more logical to wait for the alpha SDK before we start projects > for Fremantle? At least i don't have right now enough knowledge on the > maemo 5 platform and what i can do with it. I can start a project now (or > more likely renew/retarget existing one), but what will happen if the > platform can't handle it later? Indeed. I have one or two thoughts on a Fremantle-based, Clutter-using application. I *hope* to start experimenting on it before the SDK arrives (learning Clutter, testing out structures in SQLite etc), but Sod's Law says that I'm unlikely to find the time or inclination to do anything on it until December. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ maemo.org Community Council member ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi 2008/10/22 Ian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hi >> My goal is creating a "GPS position sharing" client. What this >> application will do? I try to explain in few simple steps... > > did you see fireeagle? > > http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/ > > much easier to use this than write something from scratch that's cool! I'll read the docs! It's exactly what I want :) This could save me/us a lot of time! The server part is already done :) -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi > My goal is creating a "GPS position sharing" client. What this > application will do? I try to explain in few simple steps... did you see fireeagle? http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/ much easier to use this than write something from scratch Ian -- http://ianlawrence.info ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi, 2008/10/22 Kamen Bundev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > [Sorry Quim, that was for the list...] > > Isn't it more logical to wait for the alpha SDK before we start projects for > Fremantle? At least i don't have right now enough knowledge on the maemo 5 > platform and what i can do with it. I can start a project now (or more > likely renew/retarget existing one), but what will happen if the platform > can't handle it later? very interesting question :) -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
[Sorry Quim, that was for the list...] Isn't it more logical to wait for the alpha SDK before we start projects for Fremantle? At least i don't have right now enough knowledge on the maemo 5 platform and what i can do with it. I can start a project now (or more likely renew/retarget existing one), but what will happen if the platform can't handle it later? Regards: Bundyo On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > ext Andrea Grandi wrote: > > I still don't know if I can propose an application that is not started > yet. > > What counts is whether it can be a complete product when Maemo 5 is > released. The beta SDK is expected to be available on March-May, do your > math. > > What also counts is a developer or a team behind that you can trust. 12 > totally unknown developers with a great and amazing idea count probably > less that 1-2 guys known for developing A, B, C proposing something > still cool but doable. > > This was discussed already at > http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/001143.html > > You might want also have a look at the rest of the thread starting at > > http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/thread.html#1090 > > -- > Quim Gil > marketing manager, open source > Maemo Software @ Nokia > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
> > 3) you start adding other people to your contact list and you choose > > if you want to share your GPS position with them (I suppose > yes, else > > why you add them?? :P ) > > There is already a method of providing location data over the > XMPP/Jabber > protocol which the built in messenger uses (thought it's not > implemented at > the moment): http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0119.html Sorry, should probably be this one: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0080.html Simon ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
> I still don't know if I can propose an application that is > not started yet. > Just in case you don't remember, I explain my idea again. > > My goal is creating a "GPS position sharing" client. What this > application will do? I try to explain in few simple steps... > 3) you start adding other people to your contact list and you choose > if you want to share your GPS position with them (I suppose yes, else > why you add them?? :P ) There is already a method of providing location data over the XMPP/Jabber protocol which the built in messenger uses (thought it's not implemented at the moment): http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0119.html By using the existing IM infrastructure you'd not need to register anywhere, you just tell and obtain position info from your existing contacts (which is fine IMO, I don't want any old person, even if they register on some website to know my position). > 4) At this point, when you walk around in your city, in your country > ecc... and you're connected to internet (with UMTS you can be always > connected, right? I use to be always connected using N810+N73+Tre > Italy UMTS), you can share your position to your contact list. > Think about a situation like we were in Berlin: > > - Hey John! Where are you? > -- Well... I'm... at that corner... don't know the street name... > uhm let's try to get at McDonald... > - Which one? There are at least 3-4 McDonald here! > > this is just an example where those two people could use it. I think > there are lot of situation where real time gps position sharing could > be usefull. Yes, sounds nice. Though I'd focus on trying to find the beer gardens ;) > I hope someone find this idea interesting. Please, don't limit to > steal the idea, let's try to create this together. Quite, will presence data and for that matter GeoClue as a location provider be available in Freemantle? Cheers, Simon ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi, > What counts is whether it can be a complete product when Maemo 5 is > released. The beta SDK is expected to be available on March-May, do your > math. > > What also counts is a developer or a team behind that you can trust. 12 > totally unknown developers with a great and amazing idea count probably > less that 1-2 guys known for developing A, B, C proposing something > still cool but doable. at the moment I'm alone :( I don't have all the skills/know-how required to write and complete tha application for that time I think I should gather more developers, else it's impossible for me. -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
ext Andrea Grandi wrote: > I still don't know if I can propose an application that is not started yet. What counts is whether it can be a complete product when Maemo 5 is released. The beta SDK is expected to be available on March-May, do your math. What also counts is a developer or a team behind that you can trust. 12 totally unknown developers with a great and amazing idea count probably less that 1-2 guys known for developing A, B, C proposing something still cool but doable. This was discussed already at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/001143.html You might want also have a look at the rest of the thread starting at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/thread.html#1090 -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi Quim, > We want to support a bunch of projects getting ready for primetime the > same day maemo 5 is released. And we propose the community to help out > selecting those projects. > > What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development > need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will > do our best helping you. I still don't know if I can propose an application that is not started yet. Just in case you don't remember, I explain my idea again. My goal is creating a "GPS position sharing" client. What this application will do? I try to explain in few simple steps... 1) you register to a community website (we'll have to create this, we need a dedicated server for this application) 2) you start the client in your tablet and login using your username/password of the website 3) you start adding other people to your contact list and you choose if you want to share your GPS position with them (I suppose yes, else why you add them?? :P ) 4) At this point, when you walk around in your city, in your country ecc... and you're connected to internet (with UMTS you can be always connected, right? I use to be always connected using N810+N73+Tre Italy UMTS), you can share your position to your contact list. 5) You can also look in the MAP window and you can see where your friends are. Think about a situation like we were in Berlin: - Hey John! Where are you? -- Well... I'm... at that corner... don't know the street name... uhm let's try to get at McDonald... - Which one? There are at least 3-4 McDonald here! this is just an example where those two people could use it. I think there are lot of situation where real time gps position sharing could be usefull. Something similar already exist? Ok, let's discover it and improve it. It doesn't exist yet? Well let's code it! :) I see that something similar already exist, for example: http://www.mologogo.com/ but all these websites don't have a PUBLIC API. Public API is the most important thing to let other clients/applications ecc... interact with our service. We could create a Maemo client for the moment, but having a public API would mean someone could write a Symbian client too. I hope someone find this idea interesting. Please, don't limit to steal the idea, let's try to create this together. Best regards, -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
> > It's a little unclear whether it's targeting volunteer developers > > working on this in their spare time who might be interested > in making a > > living on it, or companies who are working on free software, or > > volunteers who just want a hand, but are very happy staying > volunteers. > > We are referring here to community projects, which imply open planning > and development. In practice this calls primarily to > volunteers and open > source code but maybe there are exceptions worth considering > - you decide. Sounds good, so where shall I lay out initial ideas for how I'd like maemo-barcode (name to be changed, suggestions welcome as part of this process) to move forward and to get suggestions and help in doing this? In the Garage project itself on its mailing list, or on some more visible page (in the wiki perhaps)? I'm all for this, my gut feeling about why projects never quite make it is that the (probably sole) developer runs out of time/motivation/moves on to other things; with collaboration there is more motivation for developers to keep working (moral support and karma) and even if someone drops out there are others to keep going with it. Financial support is always nice, but I do wonder how that will work with the idea of community collaboration and projects with multiple contributors. Certainly it would be good for specific (perhaps odious) tasks (vorbis on the DSP for example, as there's no other way to motivate it afaict) but perhaps not for applications unless they really are one-man projects. Cheers, Simon ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
ext Duncan Cragg wrote: >> >> If you have questions ask. > > It would help me if you could reply to these questions: my possible > project depends on the answers..! =0) > > > 1. Will '5' have 3G, but not telephony APIs? - if so, is it possible > that we'll be able to run VoIP over 3G? (!!!).. > > 2. Will '5' have OpenGL|ES 2.0 (not 1.1) drivers for the chipset (which > will be the OMAP3430/PowerVR?) > > 3. Roughly when will the actual 'N820' (??) Maemo 5 handset be available? We can't answer those questions now, but how relevant is that. What can be said today is public already. In case of doubt submit your project. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
ext Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Frantisek Dufka wrote: >> Quim Gil wrote: >>> I'm a bit surprised about the little discussion generated by our call to >>> support cool projects. >>> >>> Was the call so casual that it ended up being unclear? >> Well, to me it is a bit unclear how Nokia could help to specific >> projects. > > The same comment from me - I'm unsure exactly what you're expecting, > what types of projects are elligible, Still unsure? My fault, then. Let's put it like this: We want Maemo 5 explorers squeezing Fremantle and making amazing end-user ready products out of it. > Whether existing projects can apply (or, on the contrary, cannot apply) Of course they can, but if an existing project in thinks 'we are done, it's just about porting/fixing bugs' then it is probably not the best candidate. Fresh thinking and more creativity is needed. > It's a little unclear whether it's targeting volunteer developers > working on this in their spare time who might be interested in making a > living on it, or companies who are working on free software, or > volunteers who just want a hand, but are very happy staying volunteers. We are referring here to community projects, which imply open planning and development. In practice this calls primarily to volunteers and open source code but maybe there are exceptions worth considering - you decide. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Quim Gil wrote: > Access to hardware before sales start is expensive and highly regulated. I see. Well, even at the same time as end users would be very helpful (=posible discount codes working since day 1). > Nokia provides such access business-as-usual to certain developers, > usually through commercial or research agreements with private or public > organizations. Doing the same for individuals or small groups without a > legal entity is something we could do in Maemo. But you see our point of > working with a selected list of projects beforehand. I see. Sounds great :-) > Then how do you explain that so many promising community projects fail > in the last mile (or before)? Some developers look for more time, some > projects look for certain skills, some look for more testing, more > feedback, more help... Yes but I am not sure targeting only selected group is ideal. Maybe we can have focused maemo-fremantle-porting mailing list or discussion forum or irc channel if maemo-developers is too noisy/broad for that. Having few skilled people watching it with greater care providing help you mentioned would be indeed nice. But this should be available to anyone who asks/subscribes (even to avoid duplicate effort for same issues of self-help from other developers). If you are afraid of too many people asking for help then those who help can perhaps decide what is worth of helping without doing the selection now. >> Does it include @nokia.com >> developers who will help with porting specific code to newer OS? I guess >> not. > > Why not. Surely the work wouldn't be done by the Maemo SW developers > busy stabilizing Fremantle That was precisely what I wondered. Every competent developer will be busy chasing last minute bugs :-) >, but why not funding someone else to work on > that. Great so what about someone providing such support channel with answers, examples, testing and packaging help? maemo-developers is good even now, we have several great Nokia people here but if someone is funded to go the extra mile it may make some difference. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
> > If you have questions ask. > It would help me if you could reply to these questions: my possible project depends on the answers..! =0) 1. Will '5' have 3G, but not telephony APIs? - if so, is it possible that we'll be able to run VoIP over 3G? (!!!).. 2. Will '5' have OpenGL|ES 2.0 (not 1.1) drivers for the chipset (which will be the OMAP3430/PowerVR?) 3. Roughly when will the actual 'N820' (??) Maemo 5 handset be available? Cheers!=0) Duncan ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi, Frantisek Dufka wrote: > Quim Gil wrote: >> I'm a bit surprised about the little discussion generated by our call to >> support cool projects. >> >> Was the call so casual that it ended up being unclear? > > Well, to me it is a bit unclear how Nokia could help to specific > projects. The same comment from me - I'm unsure exactly what you're expecting, what types of projects are elligible, whether existing projects can apply (or, on the contrary, cannot apply), etc. It's a little unclear whether it's targeting volunteer developers working on this in their spare time who might be interested in making a living on it, or companies who are working on free software, or volunteers who just want a hand, but are very happy staying volunteers. Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi, Quim Gil wrote: > Should we send an email through the garage interface (just once) :) I'd be happy to send a mail - what would you like me to put in it? Essentially what you put in your blog post? Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Huh, the correction went through sooner than original text, here it is again, please disregard if you already have it. I don't see it in list archives or my maemo-developers received mail folder. Original Message Subject: Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:48:22 +0200 Quim Gil wrote: > Access to hardware before sales start is expensive and highly regulated. I see. Well, even at the same time as end users would be very helpful (=posible discount codes working since day 1). > Nokia provides such access business-as-usual to certain developers, > usually through commercial or research agreements with private or public > organizations. Doing the same for individuals or small groups without a > legal entity is something we could do in Maemo. But you see our point of > working with a selected list of projects beforehand. I see. Sounds great :-) > Then how do you explain that so many promising community projects fail > in the last mile (or before)? Some developers look for more time, some > projects look for certain skills, some look for more testing, more > feedback, more help... Yes but I am not sure targeting only selected group is ideal. Maybe we can have focused maemo-fremantle-porting mailing list or discussion forum or irc channel if maemo-developers is too noisy/broad for that. Having few skilled people watching it with greater care providing help you mentioned would be indeed nice. But this should be available to anyone who asks/subscribes (even to avoid duplicate effort for same issues of self-help from other developers). If you are afraid of too many people asking for help then those who help can perhaps decide what is worth of helping without doing the selection now. >> Does it include @nokia.com >> developers who will help with porting specific code to newer OS? I guess >> not. > > Why not. Surely the work wouldn't be done by the Maemo SW developers > busy stabilizing Fremantle That was precisely what I wondered. Every competent developer will be busy chasing last minute bugs :-) >, but why not funding someone else to work on > that. Great so what about someone providing such support channel with answers, examples, testing and packaging help? maemo-developers is good even now, we have several great Nokia people here but if someone is funded to go the extra mile it may make some difference. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Frantisek Dufka wrote: > this should be available to > anyone who asks/subscribes (even to avoid duplicate effort for same > issues of self-help from other developers). s/of/or/ 'even to avoid duplicate effort for same issues or allow self-help from other developers' ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
quim, I obviously think Nokia can support my project. At present liqbase is a usable beta quality application (which just got added to extras after an extensive testing run), but I believe it could be so much more. I have spent the last 6 months putting together the building blocks of an expansive project with one simple goal: to make our tablets shine! It has grown into something which I am proud to use and to show to friends and which has features and abilities a lot of people thought would require new hardware to run. Its been (very) hard work so far, and has a lot of the seeds required to make full use of not just what we have now but also to expand into what we will get in the future (mantra: better camera.. better camera..) I already think (and so do many beta testers) that liqbase is a killer application, I pull it out and use it 20 times a day for such mundane things that I am constantly surprised at :) it is a consuming project and I have run out of time, I have ignored my family and I have drained myself physically. I cannot continue to build liqbase at night as a hobby, I have never built anything as large as this before and need help. I therefore ask Nokia publically and officially to allow me to extend this project both technically and financially. I am not a business man and I do not have the management experience to fully understand the metrics of the numerous directions liqbase can take, but know with a team around me we can make this work. Gary On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: > > Quim Gil wrote: > >> I'm a bit surprised about the little discussion generated by our call to > >> support cool projects. > >> > >> Was the call so casual that it ended up being unclear? > >> > > > > Well, to me it is a bit unclear how Nokia could help to specific > > projects. IMO all developers will benefit from > > > > - early SDK release(s) and documentation > > See timeline at http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle > > > - somewhat accurate device emulation or developer device program (with > > devices reaching developer hands before end users) > > We are doing our best in the emulation front. > > Access to hardware before sales start is expensive and highly regulated. > Nokia provides such access business-as-usual to certain developers, > usually through commercial or research agreements with private or public > organizations. Doing the same for individuals or small groups without a > legal entity is something we could do in Maemo. But you see our point of > working with a selected list of projects beforehand. > > > - in general as much information as possible preferably to everyone > > Sure, I don't think information to everyone is the problem. > > > If we get this then no special help may be needed. > > Then how do you explain that so many promising community projects fail > in the last mile (or before)? Some developers look for more time, some > projects look for certain skills, some look for more testing, more > feedback, more help... > > > >> What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development > >> need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will > >> do our best helping you. > > > > Do you have anything specific on your mind? What kind of help Nokia > > expects to provide in this support project? Does it include @nokia.com > > developers who will help with porting specific code to newer OS? I guess > > not. > > Why not. Surely the work wouldn't be done by the Maemo SW developers > busy stabilizing Fremantle, but why not funding someone else to work on > that. > > Don't guess, propose! > > -- > Quim Gil > marketing manager, open source > Maemo Software @ Nokia > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
ext Dave Neary wrote: > I just took care of this. Good! Still the developer community at large should be involved. For instance, any list contains "the usual suspects" but there are 705 projects in the garage and probably something really good (and unknown for most of us today) could come out from this. Same for http://www.callingallinnovators.com/ - probably most of those projects don't know about the initiative and some of them have indeed chances to get something good from there. Should we send an email through the garage interface (just once) :) -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Sorry, it was my fault, it already exists a page for proposals: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Remarkable_community_projects#Proposals_for_Fremantle_Stars Thanks and best regards, 2008/10/22 Jose Manrique Lopez de la Fuente <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hello Quim, > > I am not sure where this list should be, but I suppose maemo wiki > could be a good place: > http://wiki.maemo.org/Projects_Nokia_should_support > > Sorry, I have added more than 5 projects and not everyone is a real > existing project, but you can edit it and change whatever you want ;-) > > About > > 2008/10/22 Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> I'm a bit surprised about the little discussion generated by our call to >> support cool projects. >> >> http://flors.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-innovators/ >> http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/001090.html >> >> Was the call so casual that it ended up being unclear? >> >> We want to support a bunch of projects getting ready for primetime the >> same day maemo 5 is released. And we propose the community to help out >> selecting those projects. >> >> What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development >> need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will >> do our best helping you. >> >> If you have questions ask. But don't let this for next week because we >> would like to have a list of proposals by the end of the month, decide >> soon the projects to support and start working with them. >> >> -- >> Quim Gil >> marketing manager, open source >> Maemo Software @ Nokia >> ___ >> maemo-developers mailing list >> maemo-developers@maemo.org >> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers >> > > > > -- > J. Manrique López de la Fuente > http://www.jsmanrique.es > -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://www.jsmanrique.es ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hi, Quim Gil wrote: >> I am not sure where this list should be, but I suppose maemo wiki >> could be a good place: >> http://wiki.maemo.org/Projects_Nokia_should_support > > In fact the place decided was > http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Remarkable_community_projects#Proposals_for_Fremantle_Stars > > It was referenced in one of the links sent in my previous email. You > should probably move the relevant content to > Remarkable_community_projects and delete your page to avoid duplication. I just took care of this. Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
ext Jose Manrique Lopez de la Fuente wrote: > Hello Quim, > > I am not sure where this list should be, but I suppose maemo wiki > could be a good place: > http://wiki.maemo.org/Projects_Nokia_should_support In fact the place decided was http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Remarkable_community_projects#Proposals_for_Fremantle_Stars It was referenced in one of the links sent in my previous email. You should probably move the relevant content to Remarkable_community_projects and delete your page to avoid duplication. Thank you for the action anyway. :) -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Hello Quim, I am not sure where this list should be, but I suppose maemo wiki could be a good place: http://wiki.maemo.org/Projects_Nokia_should_support Sorry, I have added more than 5 projects and not everyone is a real existing project, but you can edit it and change whatever you want ;-) About 2008/10/22 Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I'm a bit surprised about the little discussion generated by our call to > support cool projects. > > http://flors.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-innovators/ > http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2008-October/001090.html > > Was the call so casual that it ended up being unclear? > > We want to support a bunch of projects getting ready for primetime the > same day maemo 5 is released. And we propose the community to help out > selecting those projects. > > What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development > need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will > do our best helping you. > > If you have questions ask. But don't let this for next week because we > would like to have a list of proposals by the end of the month, decide > soon the projects to support and start working with them. > > -- > Quim Gil > marketing manager, open source > Maemo Software @ Nokia > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://www.jsmanrique.es ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: > Quim Gil wrote: >> I'm a bit surprised about the little discussion generated by our call to >> support cool projects. >> >> Was the call so casual that it ended up being unclear? >> > > Well, to me it is a bit unclear how Nokia could help to specific > projects. IMO all developers will benefit from > > - early SDK release(s) and documentation See timeline at http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle > - somewhat accurate device emulation or developer device program (with > devices reaching developer hands before end users) We are doing our best in the emulation front. Access to hardware before sales start is expensive and highly regulated. Nokia provides such access business-as-usual to certain developers, usually through commercial or research agreements with private or public organizations. Doing the same for individuals or small groups without a legal entity is something we could do in Maemo. But you see our point of working with a selected list of projects beforehand. > - in general as much information as possible preferably to everyone Sure, I don't think information to everyone is the problem. > If we get this then no special help may be needed. Then how do you explain that so many promising community projects fail in the last mile (or before)? Some developers look for more time, some projects look for certain skills, some look for more testing, more feedback, more help... >> What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development >> need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will >> do our best helping you. > > Do you have anything specific on your mind? What kind of help Nokia > expects to provide in this support project? Does it include @nokia.com > developers who will help with porting specific code to newer OS? I guess > not. Why not. Surely the work wouldn't be done by the Maemo SW developers busy stabilizing Fremantle, but why not funding someone else to work on that. Don't guess, propose! -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Projects Nokia should support (yours?)
Quim Gil wrote: > I'm a bit surprised about the little discussion generated by our call to > support cool projects. > > Was the call so casual that it ended up being unclear? > Well, to me it is a bit unclear how Nokia could help to specific projects. IMO all developers will benefit from - early SDK release(s) and documentation - somewhat accurate device emulation or developer device program (with devices reaching developer hands before end users) - in general as much information as possible preferably to everyone If we get this then no special help may be needed. > > What kind of support? Whatever those cool projects under development > need to be stable and exciting for real users. You tell us and we will > do our best helping you. Do you have anything specific on your mind? What kind of help Nokia expects to provide in this support project? Does it include @nokia.com developers who will help with porting specific code to newer OS? I guess not. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
