[Marxism] Sunday's anti-war march in Petersburg, as reported by someone who was actually there
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Thousands Unite Against War in Ukraine By Sergey Chernov The St. Petersburg Times September 24, 2014 http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=100story_id=40812 Thousands protested against Russia’s involvement in Ukraine at the unauthorized Peace March in St. Petersburg on Sunday. By the estimates of organizers, between 1,500 and 2,000 protesters were present at one given time, but a total of 5,000 overall made it to the rally, which lasted for nearly four hours. City Hall refused to grant a permit for either the march or stationary rally that were initially planned as part of the all-Russian Peace March held throughout the country on Sunday, including in Moscow, where the authorized event drew between 25,000 and 50,000 by different estimates. In St. Petersburg, the organizers were the parties and groups belonging to the Democratic St. Petersburg Coalition, including Yabloko and Solidarity, as well as RPR-Parnas, the December 5th Party and the Progress Party. The St. Petersburg authorities, however, told the organizers to move the rally to the remote Polyustrovo Park in the northeast of the city, an option they turned down, calling on people to come instead to the march’s original starting point near Gorkovskaya Metro. Hundreds started to gather near Gorkovskaya Metro by 2 p.m., many wearing Ukraine’s national colors of yellow and blue. Some brought yellow and blue flowers or balloons. Although the rally was not officially permitted, the police were few and did not intervene. People refrained from bringing posters or chanting but one man briefly raised a placard saying “Putin, get your dirty hands off Ukraine” before quickly walking away. However, several people had slogans on their clothes or wore anti-war badges. Small groups of pro-Kremlin supporters were spotted but they stood aside and did not try to obstruct the rally. Between 1,500 and 2,000 people walked about three kilometers to Kazan Cathedral with no incident, although opponents left a truck painted with pro-Kremlin slogans and picture of a Russian bear growling at a bald eagle. “Our country – our rules,” the inscription said. By the time of the arrival of marchers, there were already many people near Kazan Cathedral. More placards were seen there, some reading “This war is our fault. Drop your weapons,” “Forgive us, Ukraine,” “Don’t trust Putin,” “No to war against Ukraine,” “Shame on the lying and corrupt media. No to war against a brotherly people,” “War in Ukraine is a crime of Putin’s regime” and “Stop the aggressor.” Some held small Ukrainian flags or wore yellow-and-blue ribbons. Pro-Kremlin activists wearing the St. George ribbons — which has been adopted as a symbol of the Russia-backed military insurgency in eastern Ukraine – came to Kazan Cathedral, occasionally raising flags of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic as well as anti-American and pro-Kremlin posters while arguing with the Peace March protesters. A few were dressed in Putin T-shirts. Pro-Kremlin anti-gay lawmaker Vitaly Milonov — who also wore a St. George ribbon — repeatedly entered the crowd with a bodyguard and an aide, attempting to provoke the protesters by such statements as “Homosexuals kill Russian children in Ukraine,” with the crowd reacting by chanting “Pozor” (Shame) to his appearances. Due to the overwhelming majority of anti-war protesters, violent acts were few. Pro-Kremlin men threw mayonnaise into the face of one anti-war protester and tore up the placard of another, with the police failing to react. There was an attempt to throw eggs at the demonstrators as well. The police detained several people from both camps mostly for failing to follow their orders, but refrained from mass arrests. “The main benefit of this march to me is that people overcome their solitude,” said musician Mikhail Borzykin of the rock band Televizor, who took part in the St. Petersburg rally. “Having come to such events, people realize at least that they haven’t gone insane – or gone insane alongside some 3,000 other people – and it lightens the soul of each of them, because we are being persuaded [by the pro-Kremlin media] that we don’t exist at all. This television myth is dispelled momentarily when you take to the street and talk to people who think the same. “It was important that people were not scared to take part in the march despite the lack of permission, and we know that you can easily land in prison for several years for such things. But despite this, several thousand people were present, and this was very pleasant. On the whole, everything is not as bad as television tells us about ourselves.” Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at:
[Marxism] If the US wants to destroy ISIS why did it just attack the groups arch rival?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == If the US wants to destroy ISIS why did it just attack the groups arch rival? http://warincontext.org/2014/09/23/if-the-u-s-wants-to-destroy-isis-why-did-it-just-attack-the-groups-arch-rival/ By Paul Woodward on September 23, 2014 Leave a Comment “We don’t have any specific, credible information about specific plans that they [the Khorasan Group] had. On the other hand, the intelligence did lead us to believe that they were in the process of getting very close to the execution phase of general plans that we know that they were interested in,” said Attorney General Eric Holder in an interview today with Yahoo’s Katie Couric. “So for some time now we’ve been tracking plots to conduct attacks in the United States or Europe. We believe that that attack plotting was imminent, in that they had plans to conduct attacks external to Syria,” said Ben Rhodes, deputy national security adviser at the White House. Close to the execution phase of general plans? Imminent plotting for an attack somewhere outside Syria? When government officials make vacuous statements like these and warn about the “imminent” threat posed by America’s latest diabolical foe, is it any wonder that conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones find it so easy to capture a mass audience? Those Americans less inclined to question official statements and willing to accept that airstrikes against a terrorist group they never heard of must nevertheless be a good thing if that group was about to attack the U.S., would be well advised to ask this question: does an administration that just presented its strategy for degrading and destroying ISIS, actually have a clear strategy if its war against ISIS is now also targeting one of ISIS’s principal adversaries? Aron Lund writes: What is being discussed is not a “new terrorist group,” but rather a specialized cell that has gradually been established within, or on, the fringes of an already existing al-Qaeda franchise, the so-called Nusra Front. What this seems to be about is a jihadi cell consisting of veteran al-Qaeda members who have arrived to the Nusra Front in Syria from abroad, mainly via Iran, and who are in direct contact with al-Qaeda’s international leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, himself believed to be based in Pakistan. Lund continues: Whatever one decides to call it, this is not likely to be an independent organization, but rather a network-within-the-network, assigned to deal with specific tasks. Most likely it has no fixed name at all, and the “Khorasan Group” label has simply been invented for convenience by U.S. intelligence or adopted from informal references within the Nusra Front to these men as being, for example, “our brothers from Khorasan.” The issue of the name is significant because it appears that from the vantage point of most Syrians, the U.S. strikes were simply strikes on Nusra and the implications are clear: Mike Giglio✔ @mike_giglio Follow You can debate whether hitting ISIS really helps the Syrian regime. But whatever its merits, hitting Nusra definitely does U.S. officials have repeatedly said that a campaign of airstrikes against ISIS will not accomplish its ultimate goal of destroying the organization without a ground operation involving Syrian opposition fighters. How will those fighters be recruited if the U.S. is seen as having already further undermined the war against Assad? al-Gharib الغريب @troublejee Follow Targeting Nusra in #Aleppo can be viewed as a direct help for Assad forces 6:24 PM - 23 Sep 2014 Whatever the U.S. might claim about imminent plots being hatched by the Khorasan Group, its leader is apparently viewed as having played a crucial role in the fight against Assad. Indeed, it seems somewhat more plausible that a guy who trains snipers would be focused on the war in Syria rather than some vague plot directed elsewhere. أبوالحسنين الشامي @MohammedGhazzal Follow The US air raid targeted a JN trainer He is a very well known figure an important asset for jihad in sniping training Abu Yusuf AlTurki 4:11 PM - 23 Sep 2014 Whether attacking Jabhat al Nusra has made America any safer is highly debatable but it seems much more likely this will help ISIS — and Assad. Daniele Raineri @DanieleRaineri Follow Will these U.S. bombs align Jabhat al Nusra and the Islamic State back together into a single front (even undeclared)? 6:08 PM - 23 Sep 2014 And lastly there’s this footnote: New evidence that Twitter obediently takes directions from the U.S. government: Pieter Van Ostaeyen @p_vanostaeyen Follow Observation: about 5 hours before the US airstrikes started in #Syria all main Jabhat an-Nusra accounts got deleted (again) by Twitter ... 6:50 AM - 24 Sep 2014
[Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Videos and Photographs Claim to Show Civilians Killed by US Led Air Strikes in Syria
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == https://bellingcat.com/news/mena/2014/09/23/videos-and-photographs-claim-to-show-civilians-killed-by-us-led-air-strikes-in-syria/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Ilham Tohti: Why Chinese court gave life sentence to Muslim Uighur scholar (+video) - CSMonitor.com
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == China’s leading advocate for the rights of ethnic Uighurs was jailed for life Tuesday, a sentence that signals the government’s resolve to silence dissent amid a surge in ethnic violence. Ilham Tohti, who pleaded not guilty last Wednesday to separatism charges, is a former university professor who is acclaimed internationally for his attempt to facilitate dialogue between China's Han majority and minority Muslim Uighurs in the far western Xinjiang Province. full: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2014/0923/Ilham-Tohti-Why-Chinese-court-gave-life-sentence-to-Muslim-Uighur-scholar-video Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Syrian regime Propaganda coup as Israel Downs Syrian Plane over Golan | Informed Comment
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.juancole.com/2014/09/syrian-propaganda-israel.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: The Growing Phenomenon of Pro-Israeli Advocacy in Chinese Academia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/19350/the-growing-phenomenon-of-pro-israeli-advocacy-in- Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Despite faculty opposition, a politician to become president of Florida State U. @insidehighered
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Some students and faculty have said they found Thrasher’s comments to be embarrassing for the head of a research university. During a public forum on campus, Thrasher declined to answer specific questions about the science of climate change or evolution, two fundamental concepts upon which much university research and academic funding is based. full: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/09/24/despite-faculty-opposition-politician-become-president-florida-state-u Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Russian Union of Engineers report concludes Ukraine airforce likely responsible for Malaysian Airlines H17 downing | rabble.ca
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == So Roger Annis is now taking the word of the Russian Union of Engineers. Sad, really. I can't understand how ostensibly reasonable people can allow themselves to become tawdry propagandists but then again I have seen any number of people go this route, starting with Yoshie Furuhashi. Unless you are willing to accept these words, you'd better stop describing yourself as a Marxist: But, if constructing the future and settling everything for all times are not our affair, it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to ruthless criticism of all that exists, ruthless both in the sense of not being afraid of the results it arrives at and in the sense of being just as little afraid of conflict with the powers that be. (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/letters/43_09.htm) http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/roger-annis/2014/09/russian-union-engineers-report-concludes-ukraine-airforce-likely- Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Three monsters treading on Syria’s exhausted body
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Excellent commentary on the situation MK Three Monsters http://pulsemedia.org/2014/09/23/three-monsters/ September 23, 2014 § Leave a comment Part of me, of course, is happy to see bombs fall on the heads of the international jihad-fascists tormenting the Syrian people (I refer to ISIS, not the Shia jihad-fascists fighting for Assad, who I’d love to see bombed too). Mostly, I’m just disgusted. In the name of disengagement the West not only refused to arm and supply the democratic Syrian opposition – even as Assad launched a genocide against the people – the United States actually prevented other states from providing the heavy weapons and anti-aircraft weaponry the Free Army so desperately needed. It was obvious what would happen next. The Free Army – and the Syrian people – were increasingly squeezed between Assad and the ISIS monster. And now the Americans are bombing both Iraq and Syria. This is where ‘disengagement’ and ‘realism’ has brought us. ISIS, like Assad, can be hurt from the air but defeated only on the ground. Obama and the Congress have just agreed to spend $500 million on training 5000 vetted members of the Free Syrian Army – the same people that Obama mocked as irrelevant “pharmacists, farmers and students” a few months ago. The training won’t be finished for eight months, and anyway will be of little use. The Free Army now houses some of the best, most battle-hardened fighters in the world. They don’t need training; they need weapons. In the present balance of forces, in any case, the wounds inflicted by America’s photogenic bombing run may not translate into any improvement on the ground. Only Syrians can improve things on the ground. The West was not moved to act by 200,000 (at least) slaughtered, or nine million homeless, or by barrel bombs, rape campaigns, starvation sieges or sarin gas. It was only moved when an American was beheaded. The inconsistency is noted well by Syrians. In some quarters, an assault on ISIS which is not accompanied by strikes on Assad and aid to the Free Army will be perceived as a Western-Shia-Assadist alliance against persecuted Sunnis. This could increase the appeal of ISIS and successor Sunni extremist groups. ISIS has many parents, but the first of these, in Syria at least, is Assad. He released extremists from prison while he was assassinating unarmed democrats. He sectarianised the conflict by setting up sectarian death squads and by bringing in Iran-backed Shia militias from Iraq and Lebanon. His scorched earth policy made normal life impossible in the liberated areas, creating the vacuum in which organisations like ISIS thrived. And until this June, he had an effective non-aggression pact with ISIS, not fighting it, buying oil from it. From January, on the other hand, all opposition militias – the Free Army groups and the Islamic Front groups – have been fighting ISIS (and losing thousands of men in the struggle). These fighters are not about to become an on-the-ground anti-ISIS militia, as the Americans seem to want. They know the truth – that both states, the Assadist and the psychotic-Islamist, are absolute enemies. There’s no destroying one without the other. And both must be destroyed by Syrian hands, not by foreign planes. Worth reading Yassin al-Haj’s comment, from here: I am ambivalent about a Western attack against ISIS. On the one hand, I would like to see this thuggish gang wiped from the face of the earth. ISIS is a criminal organization that has killed thousands of Syrians and Iraqis while leaving intact another criminal organization—the Assad regime—that is responsible for the deaths of close to 200,000 people. ISIS has destroyed the cause of the Syrian revolution as much as the Assad regime has destroyed our country and society. On the other hand, an attack against ISIS will send a message to many Syrians (and Iraqis and other Arabs) that this intervention isn’t about seeking justice for heinous crimes, but is rather an attack against those who challenged Western powers. This will lead to more resentment against and suspicion of the outside world, which is the very nihilist mood on which ISIS capitalizes and profits. Western powers could have avoided this had they helped the Syrian resistance in its battle against the fascist Assad regime. The right thing to do, ethically and politically, is to build a coalition against both ISIS and the Assad regime, and to help Syrians bring about significant changes in their country’s political environment. Let me finally say that I am very skeptical of the plans and intentions of the American administration. ISIS is the terrible outcome of our monstrous regimes and the West’s role in the
[Marxism] Colorado high school students protest Koch brothers imposed curriculum
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == NY Times, Sept. 24 2014 In Colorado, a Student Counterprotest to an Anti-Protest Curriculum By JACK HEALY ARVADA, Colo. — A new conservative school board majority here in the Denver suburbs recently proposed a curriculum-review committee to promote patriotism, respect for authority and free enterprise and to guard against educational materials that “encourage or condone civil disorder.” In response, hundreds of students, teachers and parents gave the board their own lesson in civil disobedience. On Tuesday, hundreds of students from high schools across the Jefferson County school district, the second largest in Colorado, streamed out of school and along busy thoroughfares, waving signs and championing the value of learning about the fractious and tumultuous chapters of American history. “It’s gotten bad,” said Griffin Guttormsson, a junior at Arvada High School who wants to become a teacher and spent the school day soliciting honks from passing cars. “The school board is insane. You can’t erase our history. It’s not patriotic. It’s stupid.” The teachers’ union, whose members forced two high schools to close Friday by calling in sick, has been in continual conflict with the new board; the board, in turn, has drawn praise from Americans for Prosperity-Colorado, a conservative group affiliated with the Koch family foundations. In April, Dustin Zvonek, the group’s director, wrote in an op-ed that the board’s election was an “exciting and hopeful moment for the county and the school district.” So far, nothing is settled in Jefferson County. The board put off a discussion of the curriculum-review committee until a meeting in October, and Ken Witt, the board president, suggested that some of its proposed language about not promoting “civil disorder, social strife or disregard of the law” might be cut. “A lot of those words were more specific and more pointed than they have to be,” Mr. Witt said. He said that the school board was responsible for making decisions about curriculum and that the review committee would give a wider spectrum of parents and community members the power to examine what was taught in schools. He said that some had made censorship allegations “to incite and upset the student population.” But on Tuesday, those allegations were more than enough to draw hundreds of students into the sun. They waved signs declaring, “It’s world history, not white history,” and talked about Cesar Chavez and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Leaders of the walkout urged others to stay out of the streets and not to curse, and sympathetic parents brought poster board, magic markers and bottles of water. Almost from the outset, the three conservative newcomers to the five-person board clashed with the two others, and a steady stream of 3-to-2 votes came to represent the sharp divisions on the board and in the community. Critics of the new majority have assailed the board for hiring its own lawyer, calling it a needless expense, and accused them of conducting school business outside of public meetings. In February, the district’s superintendent, Cindy Stevenson, announced during a packed, emotional meeting that she was leaving after 12 years because the board did not trust or respect her. Her replacement, an assistant superintendent from Douglas County, prompted more accusations that the new majority in Jefferson County was trying to steer the district far to the right. “We’ve had conservatives on our board before,” said Michele Patterson, the president of the district’s parent-teacher association. “They were wonderful. These people, they’re not interested in balance or compromise. They have a political agenda that they’re intent on pushing through.” Mr. Witt rejected the criticism, saying he was dedicated to improving student achievement, giving equal footing to charter-school students and rewarding educators for doing their jobs well. “I would rather be able to do those things without conflict, but at the end of the day, it’s very important that we align with those goals,” he said. In March 2010, a similar debate roiled the Texas Board of Education as its members voted overwhelmingly to adopt a social studies curriculum that heralded American capitalism and ensured that students would learn about the conservative movement’s rise in the 1980s. In Colorado, students said the protests had been organized over the weekend on Facebook groups after they read about the teacher sick day on Friday. Some on Tuesday wandered off after a while or returned to class. Others stayed out for hours. Leighanne Grey, a senior at Arvada High School, said that after second period, a student ran through the halls yelling, “The protest is
[Marxism] In New York, Mahmoud Abbas gives weak rhetoric about freedom
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/14328-in-new-york-mahmoud-abbas-gives-weak-rhetoric-about-freedom In New York, Mahmoud Abbas gives weak rhetoric about freedom Amith Gupta Tuesday, 23 September 2014 16:48 13 8 2 26 Like the social movements Abbas shamelessly referenced in his speech – abolitionism, feminism, indigenous rights, civil rights, and the anti-Apartheid movement – progress will not come from collaboration, it will come from political resistance Before his address at the UN General Assembly in New York, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas gave a short speech at the Cooper Union, a university in downtown Manhattan, at an event sponsored by Churches for Middle East Peace. While some of the pre-event fury was led by pro-Israel http://forward.com/articles/206063/pro-israel-students-hope-to-shame-mahmoud-abbas-wi/ students who believed that the mere presence of a Palestinian representative was somehow an affront to Jewish people, a number of locals decided to picket the event for other reasons. A group of locals gathered to call upon Mahmoud Abbas to end his complicity and collaboration with the State of Israel (disclosure: this writer was among them). Gathering outside the Cooper Union, a small group of student and community activists held signs demanding that Abbas respect the rights of Palestinian refugees, abolish the Palestinian Authority for its collaboration with Israel, and send Israeli officials to the International Criminal Court. The speech itself was tepid. Although Abbas pandered to the crowd by mentioning America's long and diverse social justice history, condemning the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria and other popular media targets, and speaking vaguely of women's rights, the content of his speech on Palestine was typical of Palestinian Authority officials. Namely, it wove chaotically between collaborating with the peaceful State of Israel and condemning the occupiers. As Palestinian Authority officials continue to feel the pressure of a public that largely views them negatively http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Hamas-Haniyeh-would-trounce-Abbas-if-elections-held-today-Palestinian-poll-says-374297 relative to those who actively resist the Israeli occupation, all the while Israel increasingly sees the Palestinian Authority as diplomatically uncooperative, Palestinian Authority leaders are now forced to pander to contradicting sentiments. Throughout his speech, Abbas spoke of the need to recognise the State of Israel, even while discussing how the Palestinian *Nakba* [catastrophe, referring to expulsion of Palestinians by nascent Israel in 1948] continues. He spoke of the need for America not to let its friend, Israel, drive drunk – while ignoring his own government's history of violent security collaboration http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/palestinian-police-attack-cnn-crew-beat-prisoners-mothers-hebron with Israel. He slammed the building of Israeli settlements – with no mention of his decisions to cede virtually all of East Jerusalem http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/23/palestinians-israel-biggest-jerusalem-historyalong with major illegal Israeli settlement blocs to Israel, deals that were only thwarted by Israeli rejectionism. And he spoke of accountability for Israeli violence in Gaza and the West Bank under international treaties – while refusing to call for Israeli officials to be tried at the International Criminal Court http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/PA-to-freeze-efforts-to-join-ICC-as-peace-talks-gesture-311721. Indeed, after a series of fumbled remarks about the need for the Palestinian observer state to join international treaties, he then proffered that he would call to restart negotiations with Israel at the UN General Assembly. Palestinian Authority officials have refused to hold Israeli officials accountable at The Hague. Perhaps most insultingly, Abbas emphasised his hope in American youths by pointing to the creation of groups like Students for Justice in Palestine and J-Street. While chapters of the former organisation organise boycotts of companies complicit in Israeli war crimes, demand the end of normalisation with Israel, and campaign against Israeli occupation, apartheid and discrimination against refugees, the latter student group has repeatedly sought to thwart boycotts http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.597958, describes itself as a pro-Israel, pro-peace group, and behaves as a counter-weight to activism seeking to pressure Israel. Through every such contradiction, we witness a leader that seeks to maintain legitimacy in the eyes of both the occupier and the occupied. In my view, Abbas's most telling comments were about Seeds of Peace. Seeds
[Marxism] Fwd: Radical Ideas for Radical Times » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == By Carl Finamore http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/24/radical-ideas-for-radical-times/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I'm am trying to drive home a few political points in a few paragraphs and that runs counter to trying to lay out more nuanced views on the USSR or JAN for the sake of political correctness in the eyes of a handful of people who will be looking for any reason to attack me anyway. Thay aren't my audience. That being said, I stand behind what I did say about Stalin and JAN and disagree with those that think I should have included more of what I didn't say. Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think Clay's first paragraph makes a valid point about the choices available in a three-way war, and whether and why to try to make it two-way. I wouldn't use the same formulations as he does to characterize the Soviet regime, but that's irrelevant to the point of the parallel he draws re the various combatants. I will say though that on the web in the last couple days the justified exposure and outrage over Obama's cuddling up to Assad has sometimes let JAN politically off the hook. Yes, they have fought both Assad and ISIS. And yes, that Obama is attacking them and not Assad is rightly seen (as the Syrian quotes in the article make clear) as proof of US imperialism's disregard for the Syrian people. But, as Syrian and other Arab revolutionaries have been pointing out, JAN are reactionary scum. Depicting the reality of the contending forces accurately does not require glossing over the politics of any of those forces. On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 10:28 AM, David P Á marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Great, now we don't only get calls for imperialist intervention but anti-soviet cold war propaganda too. --David. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On the US informing the Syrian gov't. Clay writes, cynically to say the least: The Obama administration was also so kind as to give the Assad regime a /heads-up/ as to the coming attack. ISIS also had plenty of time to fortify and reposition itself in preparation for the US air campaign. In fact the only forces caught by surprise were those that have been fighting both the Assad regime and ISIS. Nonsense. Everyone knew it was coming (despite protestations that the US would not hit ISIS in Syria) including the forces on the ground in Syria. Duh...the US announced it over and over again. They wanted to attack ISIS and other forces deemed attackable by the US without having their planes painted by anti-air radar systems, of which the Syrian gov't has some of the most sophisticated in the world along with the missiles to go with it. If not, the US would have had to use it's anti-radiation air craft to take these out first and that would entail attacking Syrian forces and thus, in effect, bringing the Russians into the entire scenario. As the US has no interest, at this time, to attack the government, it makes perfect sense to warn the gov't there of the impending raid's exact timing. DW Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Damascus scenes
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/24/street-scenes-from-a-damascus-neighborhood/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Since everybody knew the US was going to bomb in Syria, what was the point in specifically informing the Assad regime? Was it to get their permission - so the US planes won't be painted, necessitating taking out some of his forces - so that Assad could feel secure in reserving his air force for bombing Syrian civilians that very same day? And was bombing the anti-Assad JAN part of the deal made with Assad? As for Assad's storied air defense, why hasn't he ever brought down any Israeli planes over Syria? They have been there often enough! And certainly al Nusra, like everyone else, knew Obama was going to bomb in Syria, but they didn't know they were going to be a target. Hell, they didn't know they had a new name until Obama announced it. That was the surprise I was talking about. Are you really that dense? And what do you mean by despie protestations that the US would not hit ISIS in Syria? By who? Where do you get your news? Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 10:49 AM, DW via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On the US informing the Syrian gov't. Clay writes, cynically to say the least: The Obama administration was also so kind as to give the Assad regime a /heads-up/ as to the coming attack. ISIS also had plenty of time to fortify and reposition itself in preparation for the US air campaign. In fact the only forces caught by surprise were those that have been fighting both the Assad regime and ISIS. Nonsense. Everyone knew it was coming (despite protestations that the US would not hit ISIS in Syria) including the forces on the ground in Syria. Duh...the US announced it over and over again. They wanted to attack ISIS and other forces deemed attackable by the US without having their planes painted by anti-air radar systems, of which the Syrian gov't has some of the most sophisticated in the world along with the missiles to go with it. If not, the US would have had to use it's anti-radiation air craft to take these out first and that would entail attacking Syrian forces and thus, in effect, bringing the Russians into the entire scenario. As the US has no interest, at this time, to attack the government, it makes perfect sense to warn the gov't there of the impending raid's exact timing. DW Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Damascus scenes
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I'm just posting a piece. Not trying to convince anyone of anything at this point. I figure the more info from the multiple perspectives can only help elucidate the matter. Perhaps I am incorrect in this, but what the hell On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 9/24/14 12:16 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/24/street-scenes-from- a-damascus-neighborhood/ Ron, aren't you aware that Lamb has been a strong supporter of the Baathists, Hizbollah and Iran for many years? If you want to convince people that the FSA is a bunch of crooks and thugs, maybe you should look elsewhere unless you want to embarrass yourself on purpose. More drivel from Lamb on Press-TV: Western media outlets have been publishing reports of President Bashar al-Assad’s plummeting approval rate, but Franklin Lamb, an international lawyer based in Beirut, begs to differ. “I think that has never been in real doubt for people who go to Syria and talk to people first hand and not rely on the internet in exchanging and repeating the same themes,” Lamb said in an exclusive interview with Press TV on Friday. full: http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/01/18/284288/syrians- show-growing-support-for-assad/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 9/24/14 1:00 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote: Where do you get your news? David gets his news from here: Two recent news reports from mainstream sources must be brought to the attention of our readers: http://socialistorganizer.org/algeria-syria-u-s-widens-military-preparations-for-intervention-in-algeria-imperialist-powers-promote-barbarism-in-syria/ Carla Del Ponte, former president of the International Court of Justice in The Hague and currently a leading member of a United Nations Commission of Inquiry on Syria, has issued a report stating that there is strong evidence that it’s the Free Syrian Army that has used chemical weapons — including sarin nerve gas — against the Syrian population. (1) A video that is circulating widely shows the Syrian opposition brigade Omar al-Farouq kill a Syrian soldier, cut out his heart and eat it (2). It should be noted that this brigade is not part of the Al-Nusra Front linked to al-Qaeda, but rather to the Free Syrian Army. And it’s this Free Syrian Army that has the support of the Great Powers … as well as the support of many left-wing groups which continue to call on the Western governments to support and arm them in the name of an alleged Syrian revolution. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Damascus scenes
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == the two best known supporters on this list of almost any group opposed to Assad have chimed inanyone else? On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Clay Claiborne clayc...@gmail.com wrote: Frank Lamb? Oh please? May I suggest a correction, in the name of accuracy? Your statement should read: I figure the more dis-info from the multiple perspectives can only help confuse the matter. Then you would be correct. Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I'm just posting a piece. Not trying to convince anyone of anything at this point. I figure the more info from the multiple perspectives can only help elucidate the matter. Perhaps I am incorrect in this, but what the hell On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 9/24/14 12:16 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/24/street-scenes-from- a-damascus-neighborhood/ Ron, aren't you aware that Lamb has been a strong supporter of the Baathists, Hizbollah and Iran for many years? If you want to convince people that the FSA is a bunch of crooks and thugs, maybe you should look elsewhere unless you want to embarrass yourself on purpose. More drivel from Lamb on Press-TV: Western media outlets have been publishing reports of President Bashar al-Assad’s plummeting approval rate, but Franklin Lamb, an international lawyer based in Beirut, begs to differ. “I think that has never been in real doubt for people who go to Syria and talk to people first hand and not rely on the internet in exchanging and repeating the same themes,” Lamb said in an exclusive interview with Press TV on Friday. full: http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/01/18/284288/syrians- show-growing-support-for-assad/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Damascus scenes
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ron, May I take it then that you don't oppose Assad, even though he's been bombing breadlines for years? Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ron Jacobs ronj1...@gmail.com wrote: the two best known supporters on this list of almost any group opposed to Assad have chimed inanyone else? On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Clay Claiborne clayc...@gmail.com wrote: Frank Lamb? Oh please? May I suggest a correction, in the name of accuracy? Your statement should read: I figure the more dis-info from the multiple perspectives can only help confuse the matter. Then you would be correct. Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I'm just posting a piece. Not trying to convince anyone of anything at this point. I figure the more info from the multiple perspectives can only help elucidate the matter. Perhaps I am incorrect in this, but what the hell On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 9/24/14 12:16 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/24/street-scenes-from- a-damascus-neighborhood/ Ron, aren't you aware that Lamb has been a strong supporter of the Baathists, Hizbollah and Iran for many years? If you want to convince people that the FSA is a bunch of crooks and thugs, maybe you should look elsewhere unless you want to embarrass yourself on purpose. More drivel from Lamb on Press-TV: Western media outlets have been publishing reports of President Bashar al-Assad’s plummeting approval rate, but Franklin Lamb, an international lawyer based in Beirut, begs to differ. “I think that has never been in real doubt for people who go to Syria and talk to people first hand and not rely on the internet in exchanging and repeating the same themes,” Lamb said in an exclusive interview with Press TV on Friday. full: http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/01/18/284288/syrians- show-growing-support-for-assad/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: As for the sick things even the best people may be driven to under the stresses of continuing combat, shall we talk about US Marines behead Vietnamese and then kicking the heads around like soccer balls, and even digging up corpses so they can mount their heads on spikes? Sure, why not talk about it? Are you defending the war crimes of individual US soldiers in Vietnam, or justifying them? I imagine not, and there's no need to convince me otherwise, but this reads very oddly. It's not at all clear what your point is. I don't know much about the desecration of corpses, but am aware of another specific war crime, rape, that was epidemic among US troops, but practically unheard of among the National Liberation Front, among other reasons, because its leadership made it a priority to prevent it. With rare exceptions, individual war crimes are not committed in vacuums, but occur because of policies of impunity and the acquiescence, when not encouragement, of military commanders. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Damascus scenes
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 9/24/14 2:01 PM, Ron Jacobs wrote: I am not trying to convince anybody of anything, Louis. Provoke, perhaps, but not convince. The real issue is the same as it was with Seymour Hersh. He asks you to believe what an unnamed spook told him about sarin gas and Lamb ask you to trust his sources, like this: This observers friend of more than three years, whose name is withheld for his security, but who is known to several foreigners here who seek English speaking ‘fixers’ has lived most of his life in Barzeh and he knows many of the militia guys. He reports that currently there are only two foreign fighters in Barzeh, one from Algeria and one from Saudi Arabia. He expressed shock to me that last week one of his best child-hood friends—who joined al Nusra eighteen months ago, suddenly disappeared. A few days later my friend got a ‘what’s up’ message from Turkey with a telephone number to call his friend. He did and learned to his amazement, since his friend was one of the leaders of al Nusra locally, that his fried had shaved his beard, changed his style of clothing and left Barzeh without telling anyone. Now he reports that he wears shorts and swims during the day on the Turkish coast and no longer has any desire to fight anyone. This bullshit is laughable. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Damascus scenes
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Then you have succeeded. Sorry I can't continue but I have to go to work now, so TTFN Clay Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I am not trying to convince anybody of anything, Louis. Provoke, perhaps, but not convince. On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 9/24/14 1:39 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote: the two best known supporters on this list of almost any group opposed to Assad have chimed inanyone else? In fact, anything I have ever written about Syria draws support from either the bourgeois press or academic scholars--exactly the same kind of sources found in Noam Chomsky. When would Chomsky ever quote a hack like Franklin Lamb to convince anybody? Surely you can do better than that, Ron. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 24/09/2014 19:28, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote: So can I now say the Christian KKK funded by the United States? Sure, don't you think there's a clear link between anti-black racism and state power in the US, particularly in certain sections? Richard Seymour has gone into this, amongst many other people. The treatment of, say, the KKK and the BPP by state power wasn't exactly equivalent. As for the sick things even the best people may be driven to under the stresses of continuing combat, shall we talk about US Marines behead Vietnamese and then kicking the heads around like soccer balls, and even digging up corpses so they can mount their heads on spikes? Wait a moment here, are you trying to say US marines are the best people? Yes, we should definitely talk about that, as one in many of the crimes of US imperialism, ongoing today. If your point is the FSA should be excused because the best people (i.e., US imperialists do it too) that seems to aspire to a particularly twisted and depraved standard. --David. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Missing Salaita document hints at Univ. of Illinois cover up | The Electronic Intifada
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/missing-salaita-document-hints-univ-illinois-cover Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Damascus scenes
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 9/24/14 3:30 PM, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote: As such it is no surprise that they echo the stupid English acronyms for the Arabic title of the worst of the Islamic fascist groups--ISIS' and ISIL instead of the accurate DA-ESH So, Shane, are you for bombing DA-ESH the same way you were for French jets bombing jihadists in Mali? Inquiring minds want to know... Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 9/24/14 6:15 PM, Joseph Catron via Marxism wrote: Well, I'm pretty sure that I and 1.8 million others in Gaza all have PTSD. Curiously, none of us have yet eaten each other. For the information of new subscribers, Joseph is (was? I am not sure) a defender of the Baathist dictatorship, reflecting I suppose the feelings of a segment of the Palestinian movement that had those sorry politics but not Hamas. I don't think there's any point belaboring an obviously deranged act such as this one that went viral. In terms of moral calculus, I think that napalming a schoolyard is far sicker than anything that was ever done by the FSA. It was to the everlasting shame of a section of the left that it tried to spin Baathist atrocities as the necessary defense against jihadists. To my way of thinking, it is like defending the IDF's regular blood-letting in Gaza. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 9/24/14 11:29 PM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism wrote: But more to the point - what is worse: raping *and murdering* a mother and daughters who were *alive* at the time, or taking a symbolic bite from the heart of a troop who was already *dead* from battle who was responsible for these crimes? Well, according to Joseph Catron, Robert Fisk, Tariq Ali, Phyllis Bennis, Yoshie Furuhashi, Press TV, RT.com, WSWS.org, the PSL, the WWP, Counterfire, Global Research and Moon of Alabama biting a dead man's heart is worse than napalming schoolchildren. Frankly, I've reached the point where I don't want to have anything to do with such people. As much as I find the litmus test approach of In Defense of Marxism a brake on the unity of the left that is so badly needed, I am ready to declare a Sixth International centered in the upper east side of Manhattan upon which a declaration that napalming school children is worse than taking a bite out of a dead man's heart must be affirmed. I don't give a fuck if I am the only member. I will go to my grave feeling like I've done the right thing. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I want to join your Sixth International, Louis, if only to help stomp out any incipient Pabloism. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Louis Proyect via Marxism Sent: 9/24/2014 10:42 PM To: Mark Lause Subject: Re: [Marxism] What if FDR had declared war against both Hitler Stalin == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 9/24/14 11:29 PM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism wrote: But more to the point - what is worse: raping *and murdering* a mother and daughters who were *alive* at the time, or taking a symbolic bite from the heart of a troop who was already *dead* from battle who was responsible for these crimes? Well, according to Joseph Catron, Robert Fisk, Tariq Ali, Phyllis Bennis, Yoshie Furuhashi, Press TV, RT.com, WSWS.org, the PSL, the WWP, Counterfire, Global Research and Moon of Alabama biting a dead man's heart is worse than napalming schoolchildren. Frankly, I've reached the point where I don't want to have anything to do with such people. As much as I find the litmus test approach of In Defense of Marxism a brake on the unity of the left that is so badly needed, I am ready to declare a Sixth International centered in the upper east side of Manhattan upon which a declaration that napalming school children is worse than taking a bite out of a dead man's heart must be affirmed. I don't give a fuck if I am the only member. I will go to my grave feeling like I've done the right thing. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/markalause%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
