Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
And indeed it is just such theoretical think sessions that do come up with some very practical solutions. IIRC it was a sailor who suggested everyone blow at a floating mine that got someone to think that while that was not workable, the fire hoses just might make a difference, and did. Fun exercise, yes. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:13 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act > Does something that I could do nothing about > automatically make me unfit to vote? Not at all. But in that proposed system, it would. You, sir, would have been caught in the cracks. > is a soldier who did > frontline work in Korea or 'Nam automatically more qualified to make > international or national economic or trade policy than an economist or > diplomat who spent those years learning economics or international > affairs? I think the point of this proposed system (and it's purely an academic exercise!) is more of a moral one than one of technical training. It has an appeal, in that it tries to weed out the elitist types from the decision-making apparatus. You, in this proposed world, would not have been eligible to vote, but I'm not sure that would have any bearing on whether you could have been elected, or even been in the civil service. I, also, would not have been franchised. Especially disenfranchised would be that mass of people who are too frightened to actually ever _do_ anything! (Such fear-driven types would either never enlist, or would wash out in basic training. These are the types who tend to vote for the 'nanny state', against which we should _all_ be afraid.) I have no idea whether such a system would be any more or less workable in the long run than what we have, but it's interesting to think about. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
> Does something that I could do nothing about > automatically make me unfit to vote? Not at all. But in that proposed system, it would. You, sir, would have been caught in the cracks. > is a soldier who did > frontline work in Korea or 'Nam automatically more qualified to make > international or national economic or trade policy than an economist or > diplomat who spent those years learning economics or international > affairs? I think the point of this proposed system (and it's purely an academic exercise!) is more of a moral one than one of technical training. It has an appeal, in that it tries to weed out the elitist types from the decision-making apparatus. You, in this proposed world, would not have been eligible to vote, but I'm not sure that would have any bearing on whether you could have been elected, or even been in the civil service. I, also, would not have been franchised. Especially disenfranchised would be that mass of people who are too frightened to actually ever _do_ anything! (Such fear-driven types would either never enlist, or would wash out in basic training. These are the types who tend to vote for the 'nanny state', against which we should _all_ be afraid.) I have no idea whether such a system would be any more or less workable in the long run than what we have, but it's interesting to think about. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
My main point ended up being that while I was willing, and doing something about it [enlisting during the Vietnam conflict] I was hit by a drunk and then unable to serve. Does something that I could do nothing about automatically make me unfit to vote? The bigger question is still where on the continuum between no exceptions and all exceptions should the line be drawn. The other question here is if the mindset of those who are involved in front-line action when war is active really are the best suited to lead any nation the rest of the time. Put another way, is a soldier who did frontline work in Korea or 'Nam automatically more qualified to make international or national economic or trade policy than an economist or diplomat who spent those years learning economics or international affairs? My last degree was in third world development and human rights. Does the accident that prevented my 'in harm's way' service to my country make me less able to deal with those issues than someone who didn't get the graduate and postgraduate education I was able to acquire partly because I had not taken out the time for military service? What happens if we are out of wars for more than a generation? Has not happened, but it could. In that proposed society it only matters if voting matters or if who gets elected makes a difference. I think it does. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:19 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act > I've never served in the military, so I should be > excluded from the benefits of citizenship? In that proposed society, yes. So far as I recall, the _only_ difference was the voting franchise. Those willing to volunteer to be put in a position where they could be placed in harm's way, should that be necessary, got to say how the society was run. Whether or not they ever _did_ go in harm's way. A "put your money where your mouth is" arrangement. I don't remember if they had to be retired before being able to vote, but I would hope so. One wonders just how such an arrangement would work out. It's an interesting alternative to systems with near-universal compulsory military service, such as Switzerland or Israel. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
> I've never served in the military, so I should be > excluded from the benefits of citizenship? In that proposed society, yes. So far as I recall, the _only_ difference was the voting franchise. Those willing to volunteer to be put in a position where they could be placed in harm's way, should that be necessary, got to say how the society was run. Whether or not they ever _did_ go in harm's way. A "put your money where your mouth is" arrangement. I don't remember if they had to be retired before being able to vote, but I would hope so. One wonders just how such an arrangement would work out. It's an interesting alternative to systems with near-universal compulsory military service, such as Switzerland or Israel. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Then there are folks like me... I was to go in on a Monday to get my schedule for my physical and induction into the USAF, during Vietnam, and I was a Sr. in college, a volunteer wanting to serve my country though I could easily have gotten out of it. Early the previous Saturday morning a drunk driver killed herself and my 220Sb in a head-on collision. I've never served in the military [had three kids/spouses in it though], so I should be excluded from the benefits of citizenship? Guess I would argue about that. I am not willing to be called someone who 'feels guilty' for being born here, but I am one who knows a bit about life in other places and do appreciate my accident of birth. I suppose a lot of it boils down to one end wanting to have fairly simple and pure set of ideals [.. to earn the rights of citizenship, for instance] and the other end wanting to say "yes, but what about people like ..." No two ways about it, to be fair you have to make exceptions, to be the strongest you can be you can't make exceptions. That is why, IMHO, we will always be at loggerheads on this stuff. Come on, that was worth at least a $.05 BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of R A Bennell Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:13 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act Ah, but there is serving in the military and then there is serving in the military. Things are much more dangerous in times of war. There have been lots of folks who served in peace time and were at little risk. Even some now have nice desk jobs at home and no real chance of a visit to far flung places where the locals do their best to dispatch you. Not quite equal is it? Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Royce Engler Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:01 PM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act John said ...There are folks who have earned the right to that wealth (ie, the folks who defend our country), but the rest of us (myself included) are just lucky. - Therein lies the problem. Not content to just be thankful to have been born here, the Liberals feel guilty because they were born here, and can only assuage that guilt by taking money from those of us who work hard and giving it to those who they deem to be "worthy". John's comment reminds me of another point, one made by Robert Heinlein in "Starship Trooper"the theme of the story is that the only people allowed to become citizens (and consequently...to vote) are those who have served in the military and hence earned (and value) the benefits of citizenship. My $.02 Royce ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
andrew strasfogel wrote: > > His main "gaffe" was a foreign policy blunder - the Bay of Pigs fiasco, and > that certainly cost him dearly politically. That was more than a gaffe IMO. On the one hand, he resolved the Cuban missile crisis without starting a war, on the other hand, the botched invasion of Cuba may have CAUSED the missile crisis. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
I think the person in the White House who best fits that description was a young woman, or perhaps the adulterer with whom she was communicating... --R Mitch Haley wrote: > I wonder, was JFK (Kennedy, not Kerry) the king of oral communications ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
His main "gaffe" was a foreign policy blunder - the Bay of Pigs fiasco, and that certainly cost him dearly politically. His actions spoke louder than his words anyway. On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > andrew strasfogel wrote: > > > > You make him sound just like Reagan! > > ...or any other actor. > > I wonder, was JFK (Kennedy, not Kerry) the king of oral communications, > or did he just have the fortune of living in an era when the media didn't > take pleasure in pointing out his gaffes? > > Mitch. > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
andrew strasfogel wrote: > > You make him sound just like Reagan! ...or any other actor. I wonder, was JFK (Kennedy, not Kerry) the king of oral communications, or did he just have the fortune of living in an era when the media didn't take pleasure in pointing out his gaffes? Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
You make him sound just like Reagan! On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > LarryT wrote: > > People are being suckered in by charm and being articulate. > > I don't even get the idea he's all that articulate when he isn't delivering > a rehearsed speech. > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
LarryT wrote: > People are being suckered in by charm and being articulate. I don't even get the idea he's all that articulate when he isn't delivering a rehearsed speech. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
I wasn't referring to his "left vs right" position - but the similarity of the messages. "We Need Change" Some would say going from the frying pan into the fire would be change - it just wouldn't be very *good* change. The thing I worry about most is this guy having a big red button that can launch nuclear weapons and we know so little about him and how he might behave under pressure and stress. He has expressed so few details and his experience is so short that there's no clue there. People are being suckered in by charm and being articulate. Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: "Kaleb C. Striplin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act > Well, he is about as far left to hitler as you are going to get in this > country. He is by far the farthest thing left that has been a top > candidate. > > LarryT wrote: >> And it's been proposed by obama - a man we know virtually nothing about. >> WHat little we do know it not very good. He proposes Change - the same >> thing hitler ran on - change without specifics. not that obama is >> hitler - >> but we know little about him - like his 20 years listening to a preacher >> who >> hates America yet obama called him his mentor and friend - not good. >> True >> we've only heard small parts of the sermons - but it's hard to believe >> the >> sermons we have not heard were telling about how wonderful America is. >> >> Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) >> www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts >> Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil >> PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net >> 800-583-8601 >> Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs >> >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Chuck Landenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:59 PM >> Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act >> >> >>> And while we on the topic of "gummint", here's what is working its >>> way thru the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (Sen. Biden is Chairman) >>> >>> S. 2433: Global Poverty Act of 2007 (introduced by Sen. Barack Obama >>> in December, 2007) >>> A bill to require the President to develop and implement a >>> comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy >>> objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the >>> elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the >>> Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of >>> people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per >>> day. For more info Google S. 2433... >>> >>> In my opinion, it's an attempt to get the world to like us by >>> "sharing" our wealth. And it is due to be managed by the UN, that >>> does not have a stellar record on financial management nor getting >>> the "stuff" to the people that need it. . >>> >>> Off the rant box >>> >>> Chuck >>> >>> Phoenix AZ >>> >>> On Jun 3, 2008, at 9:07 AM, andrew strasfogel wrote: >>> >>>> The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, and 2) do the hard >>>> work >>>> necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some >>>> sacrifice for everyone on the planet. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Rich Thomas < >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Would that were true. The problem I see with this is that it is yet >>>>> another thing created by lobbyists and those looking to raise >>>>> taxes with >>>>> no clear point to it other than to screw the taxpayers, again, in >>>>> a new >>>>> way under the scare of global warming or climate change or >>>>> whatever is >>>>> the current fad name. (Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was >>>>> global >>>>> cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big >>>>> "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) >>>>> >>&g
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Ah, but there is serving in the military and then there is serving in the military. Things are much more dangerous in times of war. There have been lots of folks who served in peace time and were at little risk. Even some now have nice desk jobs at home and no real chance of a visit to far flung places where the locals do their best to dispatch you. Not quite equal is it? Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Royce Engler Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:01 PM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act John said ...There are folks who have earned the right to that wealth (ie, the folks who defend our country), but the rest of us (myself included) are just lucky. - Therein lies the problem. Not content to just be thankful to have been born here, the Liberals feel guilty because they were born here, and can only assuage that guilt by taking money from those of us who work hard and giving it to those who they deem to be "worthy". John's comment reminds me of another point, one made by Robert Heinlein in "Starship Trooper"the theme of the story is that the only people allowed to become citizens (and consequently...to vote) are those who have served in the military and hence earned (and value) the benefits of citizenship. My $.02 Royce ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
I don't feel guilty, just fortunate. On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Royce Engler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > John said > > ...There are folks who have earned the right to that wealth (ie, the folks > who defend our country), but the rest of us (myself included) are just > lucky. > > - Therein lies the problem. Not content to just be thankful to have been > born here, the Liberals feel guilty because they were born here, and can > only assuage that guilt by taking money from those of us who work hard and > giving it to those who they deem to be "worthy". > > John's comment reminds me of another point, one made by Robert Heinlein in > "Starship Trooper"the theme of the story is that the only people > allowed > to become citizens (and consequently...to vote) are those who have served > in > the military and hence earned (and value) the benefits of citizenship. > > My $.02 > > Royce > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
John said ...There are folks who have earned the right to that wealth (ie, the folks who defend our country), but the rest of us (myself included) are just lucky. - Therein lies the problem. Not content to just be thankful to have been born here, the Liberals feel guilty because they were born here, and can only assuage that guilt by taking money from those of us who work hard and giving it to those who they deem to be "worthy". John's comment reminds me of another point, one made by Robert Heinlein in "Starship Trooper"the theme of the story is that the only people allowed to become citizens (and consequently...to vote) are those who have served in the military and hence earned (and value) the benefits of citizenship. My $.02 Royce ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Stalin killed to keep his power. Hitler killed people to gain power. Socialism and communism are two different things, I don't think I would classify the Soviets as socialists. A fascist is a fascist is a fascist, they are all pages from the same book in my opinion. My biggest complaint about the patriot act was not that Bush was being a fascist, he was creating the stepping stones for fascist rule. I look forward to Obama as POTUS in 08. McCain has a long way to go before he can get back in. I am half convinced that these Obama Hillary spat were a means to an end for the Dems to get free airtime. Poor McCain can barely make the local news on a Sunday evening it seems like. -Rolf Mitch Haley wrote: > "Kaleb C. Striplin" wrote: > > >> Well, he is about as far left to hitler as you are going to get in this >> country. He is by far the farthest thing left that has been a top >> candidate. >> > > I'd put him left of Dodd, probably left of Edwards, but both O'bama > and Klingon have said some very Marxist things, so it's hard to choose > between the two. The Communist Party (cpusa.org) wouldn't choose sides, > I guess they would have been happy with Edwards, HRC, or BHO. The only > difference I see is that what little actual work BHO has done in the > legislature has been more Marxist than what HRC has done. > > It's hard to differentiate between right wing fascist socialism (National > Socialists) and left wing fascist socialism (Soviets). You go all the > way in both directions and you'll meet up on the other side. Either way > you get a police state. I really don't see the difference between Hitler > and Lenin/Stalin. Stalin killed a few million more than Hitler did, but > I believe he was in office longer than Hitler. > > Mitch. > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
"Kaleb C. Striplin" wrote: > Well, he is about as far left to hitler as you are going to get in this > country. He is by far the farthest thing left that has been a top > candidate. I'd put him left of Dodd, probably left of Edwards, but both O'bama and Klingon have said some very Marxist things, so it's hard to choose between the two. The Communist Party (cpusa.org) wouldn't choose sides, I guess they would have been happy with Edwards, HRC, or BHO. The only difference I see is that what little actual work BHO has done in the legislature has been more Marxist than what HRC has done. It's hard to differentiate between right wing fascist socialism (National Socialists) and left wing fascist socialism (Soviets). You go all the way in both directions and you'll meet up on the other side. Either way you get a police state. I really don't see the difference between Hitler and Lenin/Stalin. Stalin killed a few million more than Hitler did, but I believe he was in office longer than Hitler. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Well, he is about as far left to hitler as you are going to get in this country. He is by far the farthest thing left that has been a top candidate. LarryT wrote: > And it's been proposed by obama - a man we know virtually nothing about. > WHat little we do know it not very good. He proposes Change - the same > thing hitler ran on - change without specifics. not that obama is hitler - > but we know little about him - like his 20 years listening to a preacher who > hates America yet obama called him his mentor and friend - not good. True > we've only heard small parts of the sermons - but it's hard to believe the > sermons we have not heard were telling about how wonderful America is. > > Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) > www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts > Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil > PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net > 800-583-8601 > Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Chuck Landenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Mercedes Discussion List" > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:59 PM > Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act > > >> And while we on the topic of "gummint", here's what is working its >> way thru the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (Sen. Biden is Chairman) >> >> S. 2433: Global Poverty Act of 2007 (introduced by Sen. Barack Obama >> in December, 2007) >> A bill to require the President to develop and implement a >> comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy >> objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the >> elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the >> Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of >> people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per >> day. For more info Google S. 2433... >> >> In my opinion, it's an attempt to get the world to like us by >> "sharing" our wealth. And it is due to be managed by the UN, that >> does not have a stellar record on financial management nor getting >> the "stuff" to the people that need it. . >> >> Off the rant box >> >> Chuck >> >> Phoenix AZ >> >> On Jun 3, 2008, at 9:07 AM, andrew strasfogel wrote: >> >>> The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, and 2) do the hard >>> work >>> necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some >>> sacrifice for everyone on the planet. >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Rich Thomas < >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>>> Would that were true. The problem I see with this is that it is yet >>>> another thing created by lobbyists and those looking to raise >>>> taxes with >>>> no clear point to it other than to screw the taxpayers, again, in >>>> a new >>>> way under the scare of global warming or climate change or >>>> whatever is >>>> the current fad name. (Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was >>>> global >>>> cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big >>>> "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) >>>> >>>> Things like this have no measurable effect on the ostensible goal >>>> but do >>>> have a way of taking lots money from one pot (that would be yours and >>>> mine) with taxes, either direct or indirect, and putting it in >>>> another >>>> pot (that would be those who feed at the trough) for "programs." >>>> That >>>> is just the way it works, rhetoric and laudable goals are just >>>> lipstick >>>> on the pig. >>>> >>>> The real problem is that the developing world all wants to live like >>>> those of us in the developed world, and will do whatever they need to >>>> get there (e.g., building lots of cheap and dirty CFPPs as fast as >>>> they >>>> can build them). That is not good, and this "legislation" will do >>>> nothing to affect that. The Indians and Chinese really could not >>>> care >>>> less what we think about their practices in that regard -- they have >>>> their own people to answer to, and carbon emissions are pretty low on >>>> their scale of concerns. >>>> >>>> The real answer is not to tax us to death, it's to spend some >>>> money on >>&
[MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
1. It's surprising that this article was published in the WSJ, as one would expect something like this in the NYT albeit with actual facts. 2. It's also somewhat surprising that a Republican (Mr. Inhofe) would raise objections of this nature considering where they've placed their loyalties in recent years. G. M. Brown Brevard, NC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Having done my spiel on the economics of having children in a poor country a year of so ago I won't repeat it [unless prompted :=)]. Suffice to say that you have a definite viewpoint of person who lives with a civil safety net. Until it becomes an economically liability for the poor third world folks to have another child they will do so as a means of survival. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Robbins Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:11 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act Chuck Landenberger wrote: > elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the > Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of > people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per > day. For more info Google S. 2433... > > In my opinion, it's an attempt to get the world to like us by > "sharing" our wealth. And it is due to be managed by the UN, that > does not have a stellar record on financial management nor getting > the "stuff" to the people that need it. . You could also accomplish a lot of this with birth control (voluntary... not China style). Not all of it can be done that way, but providing free birth control would certainly help. Besides, the only reason 99% of us have the wealth that we do is because we were *lucky* to be born on US soil. If you were born elsewhere and worked twice as hard, you would probably not even have close to the amount of wealth you have here. There are folks who have earned the right to that wealth (ie, the folks who defend our country), but the rest of us (myself included) are just lucky. My $.02 John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
And it's been proposed by obama - a man we know virtually nothing about. WHat little we do know it not very good. He proposes Change - the same thing hitler ran on - change without specifics. not that obama is hitler - but we know little about him - like his 20 years listening to a preacher who hates America yet obama called him his mentor and friend - not good. True we've only heard small parts of the sermons - but it's hard to believe the sermons we have not heard were telling about how wonderful America is. Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: "Chuck Landenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act > And while we on the topic of "gummint", here's what is working its > way thru the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (Sen. Biden is Chairman) > > S. 2433: Global Poverty Act of 2007 (introduced by Sen. Barack Obama > in December, 2007) > A bill to require the President to develop and implement a > comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy > objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the > elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the > Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of > people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per > day. For more info Google S. 2433... > > In my opinion, it's an attempt to get the world to like us by > "sharing" our wealth. And it is due to be managed by the UN, that > does not have a stellar record on financial management nor getting > the "stuff" to the people that need it. . > > Off the rant box > > Chuck > > Phoenix AZ > > On Jun 3, 2008, at 9:07 AM, andrew strasfogel wrote: > >> The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, and 2) do the hard >> work >> necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some >> sacrifice for everyone on the planet. >> >> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Rich Thomas < >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Would that were true. The problem I see with this is that it is yet >>> another thing created by lobbyists and those looking to raise >>> taxes with >>> no clear point to it other than to screw the taxpayers, again, in >>> a new >>> way under the scare of global warming or climate change or >>> whatever is >>> the current fad name. (Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was >>> global >>> cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big >>> "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) >>> >>> Things like this have no measurable effect on the ostensible goal >>> but do >>> have a way of taking lots money from one pot (that would be yours and >>> mine) with taxes, either direct or indirect, and putting it in >>> another >>> pot (that would be those who feed at the trough) for "programs." >>> That >>> is just the way it works, rhetoric and laudable goals are just >>> lipstick >>> on the pig. >>> >>> The real problem is that the developing world all wants to live like >>> those of us in the developed world, and will do whatever they need to >>> get there (e.g., building lots of cheap and dirty CFPPs as fast as >>> they >>> can build them). That is not good, and this "legislation" will do >>> nothing to affect that. The Indians and Chinese really could not >>> care >>> less what we think about their practices in that regard -- they have >>> their own people to answer to, and carbon emissions are pretty low on >>> their scale of concerns. >>> >>> The real answer is not to tax us to death, it's to spend some >>> money on >>> actually trying to do something to develop practical alternatives, >>> whether conservation, new sources of energy, better technology, or >>> anything else. That gives us something to sell to those who want >>> to be >>> like us, and weans us from the wackos who sell us oil now. It's a >>> lot >>> easier to raise taxes for some dubious purpose though, and seem like >>> they have "done something." So far, none of the politicians have >>> stepped up to the real hard problem
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
The earth is not warming - recent temps in the last decade erased the *very* slight increase previously widely publicized by the MSM and Algore who mostly is trying to line his pockets. The whole 8 years he was VP he remained silent on the problem he describes. He had the best opportunity to make people aware of his perception of reality but he didn;t. Maybe he feared B Clinton would steal his thunder (and his money). In any case, Mother Nature is responsibile for the warming and cooling of the temperature. The Sun, oceans and vegatation along with significant geological events like volcano eruptions put far more stuff in the atmosphere and have a far greater impact on the environment that people. It's the height of arrogance to believe man has changed the environment in the manner the propaganda suggests. But using fear to move money from the worlds richest country to those who are unable to maintain stable govts long enough to stop killing their populations and create a viable democracy is something people have wanted to do for a while - and divert some of that money into various pockets as they go. If the UN or US Congress succeed in extorting money from the US Population the political party in power at the time will suffer for years to come - perhaps being destroyed completely - and maybe that's something good. At some point perhaps those in power will see the light and realize they're taking the wrong path - but that will only happen after they line their pockets with green stuff. As Rich said << If I knew that paying another 10% on fuel and whatever was going to save me down the road, I would be first in line, but we all know that just ain't gonna happen. Same as it ever was.>> Yep, the money will be paid and nothing will change - Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: "andrew strasfogel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act > The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, and 2) do the hard work > necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some > sacrifice for everyone on the planet. > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Rich Thomas < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Would that were true. The problem I see with this is that it is yet >> another thing created by lobbyists and those looking to raise taxes with >> no clear point to it other than to screw the taxpayers, again, in a new >> way under the scare of global warming or climate change or whatever is >> the current fad name. (Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was global >> cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big >> "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) >> >> Things like this have no measurable effect on the ostensible goal but do >> have a way of taking lots money from one pot (that would be yours and >> mine) with taxes, either direct or indirect, and putting it in another >> pot (that would be those who feed at the trough) for "programs." That >> is just the way it works, rhetoric and laudable goals are just lipstick >> on the pig. >> >> The real problem is that the developing world all wants to live like >> those of us in the developed world, and will do whatever they need to >> get there (e.g., building lots of cheap and dirty CFPPs as fast as they >> can build them). That is not good, and this "legislation" will do >> nothing to affect that. The Indians and Chinese really could not care >> less what we think about their practices in that regard -- they have >> their own people to answer to, and carbon emissions are pretty low on >> their scale of concerns. >> >> The real answer is not to tax us to death, it's to spend some money on >> actually trying to do something to develop practical alternatives, >> whether conservation, new sources of energy, better technology, or >> anything else. That gives us something to sell to those who want to be >> like us, and weans us from the wackos who sell us oil now. It's a lot >> easier to raise taxes for some dubious purpose though, and seem like >> they have "done something." So far, none of the politicians have >> stepped up to the real hard problem, and I expect none of them will. >> More panem et circes for the masses though. >> >> --R >> >> andrew strasfogel wrote: >> > It&
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Well, there you go again Loren! How dare you introduce facts into this discussion!You know that's not what people want to hear. ;-\ Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: "Loren Faeth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act > No, that was not an oops. It was just a less extreme over-reaction > about normal climate variation than the current version. IF those > who believe in global warming or global freezing are Darwinians, then > they are acting and thinking counter to their own manifesto. We are > supposed to be able to adapt. You know... survival of the fittest, > and all that. > > If they are of Judeo-Christian faith, then they must believe that God > controls our destiny, or at least the climate, or else their thinking > and actions are at odds with their faith. Regardless of belief, the > records and science shows 30 year heating and cooling cycles related > to sun activity. We have been in a cooling cycle for 6-8 years. In > another 12 years or so, we will be in a heating cycle. > > Just take a look at the scale of stuff spewed into the atmosphere by > various volcanoes over recorded history. Mt. St. Helens, Penetubo or > others. IF a little stuff from our industry can change climate , > then these volcanoes should have ended life on earth. Last time I > checked, I was still alive! In Iowa we were told that no way any > ash from the St Helens volcano would get to us. But, the fallout > sounded like rain on the trees. I did not entirely cover the ground, > but there was no problem finding plenty of the ash/lava. I stuck > some to a piece of 2" packing tape and I still have it. "experts" > often are pushing an agenda. Albore is not even an expert. He is a > drip, but not a drip under pressure. > > Kilauea has been in continuous eruptive phase since 1984. How much > SOx and NOx has come from Kilauea alone in the past 24 years? Not to > mention particulate. Yet, I loved my years living in Hawaii, and the > best of all was my time at Volcano, HI. The most beautiful day in > the world I can describe, is simply what I call "like a beautiful > day in Volcano" because there is nothing on the planet better than that. > > Humans, particularly politicians, place way too much emphasis on > their value in proportion to the power of nature or the power of > God. It is a matter of magnitude, and we are on a micro scale, while > nature/God are on a macro scale. > > At 11:07 AM 6/3/2008, you wrote: >>(Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was global >> > cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big >> > "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) > > Loren Faeth > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:07:57 -0400 "andrew strasfogel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, Yes, and that is a whole bunch of half-cocked, scientifically ignorant publicizers trying to get rich off the anxieties of others, > and 2) do the hard work necessary to solve it, which must necessarily > include at least some sacrifice for everyone on the planet Particularly for the Al Gore types who have fleeced their pockets at the expense of the little guys. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Chuck Landenberger wrote: > elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the > Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of > people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per > day. For more info Google S. 2433... > > In my opinion, it's an attempt to get the world to like us by > "sharing" our wealth. And it is due to be managed by the UN, that > does not have a stellar record on financial management nor getting > the "stuff" to the people that need it. . You could also accomplish a lot of this with birth control (voluntary... not China style). Not all of it can be done that way, but providing free birth control would certainly help. Besides, the only reason 99% of us have the wealth that we do is because we were *lucky* to be born on US soil. If you were born elsewhere and worked twice as hard, you would probably not even have close to the amount of wealth you have here. There are folks who have earned the right to that wealth (ie, the folks who defend our country), but the rest of us (myself included) are just lucky. My $.02 John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
You paint with a brush that is entirely too large when you attempt to speak for all Christians/Jews on this stuff. I can assure you that you are not describing the beliefs of a lot of self-described Christians or Jews. Think of it like saying "Americans believe..." Not really a statement that is possibly correct no matter if you just mean those Americans in the USA or include Central / South / all of N. America. Little in Christianity is that cut and dried. All this has nothing to do with your major point, however. Just keeping some of the edges tucked in. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Loren Faeth Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:11 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act No, that was not an oops. It was just a less extreme over-reaction about normal climate variation than the current version. IF those who believe in global warming or global freezing are Darwinians, then they are acting and thinking counter to their own manifesto. We are supposed to be able to adapt. You know... survival of the fittest, and all that. If they are of Judeo-Christian faith, then they must believe that God controls our destiny, or at least the climate, or else their thinking and actions are at odds with their faith. Regardless of belief, the records and science shows 30 year heating and cooling cycles related to sun activity. We have been in a cooling cycle for 6-8 years. In another 12 years or so, we will be in a heating cycle. Just take a look at the scale of stuff spewed into the atmosphere by various volcanoes over recorded history. Mt. St. Helens, Penetubo or others. IF a little stuff from our industry can change climate , then these volcanoes should have ended life on earth. Last time I checked, I was still alive! In Iowa we were told that no way any ash from the St Helens volcano would get to us. But, the fallout sounded like rain on the trees. I did not entirely cover the ground, but there was no problem finding plenty of the ash/lava. I stuck some to a piece of 2" packing tape and I still have it. "experts" often are pushing an agenda. Albore is not even an expert. He is a drip, but not a drip under pressure. Kilauea has been in continuous eruptive phase since 1984. How much SOx and NOx has come from Kilauea alone in the past 24 years? Not to mention particulate. Yet, I loved my years living in Hawaii, and the best of all was my time at Volcano, HI. The most beautiful day in the world I can describe, is simply what I call "like a beautiful day in Volcano" because there is nothing on the planet better than that. Humans, particularly politicians, place way too much emphasis on their value in proportion to the power of nature or the power of God. It is a matter of magnitude, and we are on a micro scale, while nature/God are on a macro scale. At 11:07 AM 6/3/2008, you wrote: >(Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was global > > cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big > > "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
The UN DOES have a stellar record of getting the "stuff" to those who need it. You just have the "wrong" point of view. The UN point of view is that the people who need the "Stuff" are the UN Secretary General and his relatives. The UN believes in trickle Down Economics too. Once the Secretary General has all the "stuff," some things will "trickle down" to UN employees and the dictators that put them there. At 12:59 PM 6/3/2008, you wrote: >And it is due to be managed by the UN, that >does not have a stellar record on financial management nor getting >the "stuff" to the people that need it. Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
No, that was not an oops. It was just a less extreme over-reaction about normal climate variation than the current version. IF those who believe in global warming or global freezing are Darwinians, then they are acting and thinking counter to their own manifesto. We are supposed to be able to adapt. You know... survival of the fittest, and all that. If they are of Judeo-Christian faith, then they must believe that God controls our destiny, or at least the climate, or else their thinking and actions are at odds with their faith. Regardless of belief, the records and science shows 30 year heating and cooling cycles related to sun activity. We have been in a cooling cycle for 6-8 years. In another 12 years or so, we will be in a heating cycle. Just take a look at the scale of stuff spewed into the atmosphere by various volcanoes over recorded history. Mt. St. Helens, Penetubo or others. IF a little stuff from our industry can change climate , then these volcanoes should have ended life on earth. Last time I checked, I was still alive! In Iowa we were told that no way any ash from the St Helens volcano would get to us. But, the fallout sounded like rain on the trees. I did not entirely cover the ground, but there was no problem finding plenty of the ash/lava. I stuck some to a piece of 2" packing tape and I still have it. "experts" often are pushing an agenda. Albore is not even an expert. He is a drip, but not a drip under pressure. Kilauea has been in continuous eruptive phase since 1984. How much SOx and NOx has come from Kilauea alone in the past 24 years? Not to mention particulate. Yet, I loved my years living in Hawaii, and the best of all was my time at Volcano, HI. The most beautiful day in the world I can describe, is simply what I call "like a beautiful day in Volcano" because there is nothing on the planet better than that. Humans, particularly politicians, place way too much emphasis on their value in proportion to the power of nature or the power of God. It is a matter of magnitude, and we are on a micro scale, while nature/God are on a macro scale. At 11:07 AM 6/3/2008, you wrote: >(Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was global > > cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big > > "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
I like what a local resident had to say about Senator Osama: >From Rock LaBerge of Clarksville: "I, too, have been struck by the similarity between Mr. Obama's campaign, and that of President Kennedy. "Both candidates make large promises of a very general nature. Both generate much enthusiasm from very young people who don't really know too much about the real world, and it's quite possible that both will result in the election of a president." http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080602/COLUMNISTS09/806020336/1016/COLUMNISTS09 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
And while we on the topic of "gummint", here's what is working its way thru the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (Sen. Biden is Chairman) S. 2433: Global Poverty Act of 2007 (introduced by Sen. Barack Obama in December, 2007) A bill to require the President to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per day. For more info Google S. 2433... In my opinion, it's an attempt to get the world to like us by "sharing" our wealth. And it is due to be managed by the UN, that does not have a stellar record on financial management nor getting the "stuff" to the people that need it. . Off the rant box Chuck Phoenix AZ On Jun 3, 2008, at 9:07 AM, andrew strasfogel wrote: > The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, and 2) do the hard > work > necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some > sacrifice for everyone on the planet. > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Rich Thomas < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Would that were true. The problem I see with this is that it is yet >> another thing created by lobbyists and those looking to raise >> taxes with >> no clear point to it other than to screw the taxpayers, again, in >> a new >> way under the scare of global warming or climate change or >> whatever is >> the current fad name. (Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was >> global >> cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big >> "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) >> >> Things like this have no measurable effect on the ostensible goal >> but do >> have a way of taking lots money from one pot (that would be yours and >> mine) with taxes, either direct or indirect, and putting it in >> another >> pot (that would be those who feed at the trough) for "programs." >> That >> is just the way it works, rhetoric and laudable goals are just >> lipstick >> on the pig. >> >> The real problem is that the developing world all wants to live like >> those of us in the developed world, and will do whatever they need to >> get there (e.g., building lots of cheap and dirty CFPPs as fast as >> they >> can build them). That is not good, and this "legislation" will do >> nothing to affect that. The Indians and Chinese really could not >> care >> less what we think about their practices in that regard -- they have >> their own people to answer to, and carbon emissions are pretty low on >> their scale of concerns. >> >> The real answer is not to tax us to death, it's to spend some >> money on >> actually trying to do something to develop practical alternatives, >> whether conservation, new sources of energy, better technology, or >> anything else. That gives us something to sell to those who want >> to be >> like us, and weans us from the wackos who sell us oil now. It's a >> lot >> easier to raise taxes for some dubious purpose though, and seem like >> they have "done something." So far, none of the politicians have >> stepped up to the real hard problem, and I expect none of them will. >> More panem et circes for the masses though. >> >> --R >> >> andrew strasfogel wrote: >>> It's about time they did something useful. >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Rich Thomas < >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> Y'all might want to edumacate yourselves on this thing our Congresscritters are going to do for us. --R >> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121244985951839615.html? >> mod=opinion_main_commentaries ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >>> ___ >>> http://www.okiebenz.com >>> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ >>> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >>> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >>> >>> >>> >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ >> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >> > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
are you joking? andrew strasfogel wrote: > It's about time they did something useful. > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Rich Thomas < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Y'all might want to edumacate yourselves on this thing our >> Congresscritters are going to do for us. >> >> --R >> >> >> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121244985951839615.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries >> >> >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ >> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >> > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 86 560SL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250, 66 220SEb http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
nearly all of the terrorism we will ever encounter in our lives will be at the hands of our own government. and the more you let them get away with, the worse it will get. On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > andrew strasfogel wrote: > > > > The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, and 2) do the hard work > > necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some > > sacrifice for everyone on the planet. > > The trick there is to actually have a solution, not just subject the > populace to pain/sacrifice in order to convince them you're doing > something and it's for their own good. Example: The Unpatriotic Act. > The population discovers that the world is a dangerous place and > Big Brother isn't protecting them from it (because he can't). > The solution: Infringe their rights and tell them that they will > be safe if they let you abuse them some more. Net increase in safety = > zero, > but the sheep are placated because they can see you did something. > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Exactly, but the ones wanting to be like us want us to reduce our consumption/standards/lifestyles/whatever so they will have more to get our consumption/standards/lifestyles/whatever. They have been sacrificing (in a manner of speaking I suppose, if "not having" is the same as "giving up" but that has more to do with their own political systems and lack of progress) and don't want to be that way any more. None of our politicians will do the hard work, they want to get re-elected. They want quick and easy "solutions" that sound good while giving them more money to piss away. If I knew that paying another 10% on fuel and whatever was going to save me down the road, I would be first in line, but we all know that just ain't gonna happen. Same as it ever was. --R andrew strasfogel wrote: > The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, and 2) do the hard work > necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some > sacrifice for everyone on the planet. > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Rich Thomas < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> Would that were true. The problem I see with this is that it is yet >> another thing created by lobbyists and those looking to raise taxes with >> no clear point to it other than to screw the taxpayers, again, in a new >> way under the scare of global warming or climate change or whatever is >> the current fad name. (Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was global >> cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big >> "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) >> >> Things like this have no measurable effect on the ostensible goal but do >> have a way of taking lots money from one pot (that would be yours and >> mine) with taxes, either direct or indirect, and putting it in another >> pot (that would be those who feed at the trough) for "programs." That >> is just the way it works, rhetoric and laudable goals are just lipstick >> on the pig. >> >> The real problem is that the developing world all wants to live like >> those of us in the developed world, and will do whatever they need to >> get there (e.g., building lots of cheap and dirty CFPPs as fast as they >> can build them). That is not good, and this "legislation" will do >> nothing to affect that. The Indians and Chinese really could not care >> less what we think about their practices in that regard -- they have >> their own people to answer to, and carbon emissions are pretty low on >> their scale of concerns. >> >> The real answer is not to tax us to death, it's to spend some money on >> actually trying to do something to develop practical alternatives, >> whether conservation, new sources of energy, better technology, or >> anything else. That gives us something to sell to those who want to be >> like us, and weans us from the wackos who sell us oil now. It's a lot >> easier to raise taxes for some dubious purpose though, and seem like >> they have "done something." So far, none of the politicians have >> stepped up to the real hard problem, and I expect none of them will. >> More panem et circes for the masses though. >> >> --R >> >> andrew strasfogel wrote: >> >>> It's about time they did something useful. >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Rich Thomas < >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Y'all might want to edumacate yourselves on this thing our Congresscritters are going to do for us. --R >> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121244985951839615.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries >> ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >>> ___ >>> http://www.okiebenz.com >>> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ >>> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >>> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ >> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >> >> > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For us
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Simply a reminder that the truth of your statement <<< 2) do the hard work necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some sacrifice for everyone on the planet.>>>>>>>> hits folks differently if it means driving your SUV to a closer mall you don't like as much or not quite being able to feed all your children this year. Many of those subsistence level folks would suggest that the problem they have with pollution is that they don't have enough of it [too few jobs]. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of andrew strasfogel Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 12:08 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, and 2) do the hard work necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some sacrifice for everyone on the planet. To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
andrew strasfogel wrote: > > The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, and 2) do the hard work > necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some > sacrifice for everyone on the planet. The trick there is to actually have a solution, not just subject the populace to pain/sacrifice in order to convince them you're doing something and it's for their own good. Example: The Unpatriotic Act. The population discovers that the world is a dangerous place and Big Brother isn't protecting them from it (because he can't). The solution: Infringe their rights and tell them that they will be safe if they let you abuse them some more. Net increase in safety = zero, but the sheep are placated because they can see you did something. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
The real anwer is to 1) agree we have a problem, and 2) do the hard work necessary to solve it, which must necessarily include at least some sacrifice for everyone on the planet. On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Rich Thomas < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Would that were true. The problem I see with this is that it is yet > another thing created by lobbyists and those looking to raise taxes with > no clear point to it other than to screw the taxpayers, again, in a new > way under the scare of global warming or climate change or whatever is > the current fad name. (Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was global > cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big > "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) > > Things like this have no measurable effect on the ostensible goal but do > have a way of taking lots money from one pot (that would be yours and > mine) with taxes, either direct or indirect, and putting it in another > pot (that would be those who feed at the trough) for "programs." That > is just the way it works, rhetoric and laudable goals are just lipstick > on the pig. > > The real problem is that the developing world all wants to live like > those of us in the developed world, and will do whatever they need to > get there (e.g., building lots of cheap and dirty CFPPs as fast as they > can build them). That is not good, and this "legislation" will do > nothing to affect that. The Indians and Chinese really could not care > less what we think about their practices in that regard -- they have > their own people to answer to, and carbon emissions are pretty low on > their scale of concerns. > > The real answer is not to tax us to death, it's to spend some money on > actually trying to do something to develop practical alternatives, > whether conservation, new sources of energy, better technology, or > anything else. That gives us something to sell to those who want to be > like us, and weans us from the wackos who sell us oil now. It's a lot > easier to raise taxes for some dubious purpose though, and seem like > they have "done something." So far, none of the politicians have > stepped up to the real hard problem, and I expect none of them will. > More panem et circes for the masses though. > > --R > > andrew strasfogel wrote: > > It's about time they did something useful. > > > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Rich Thomas < > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >> Y'all might want to edumacate yourselves on this thing our > >> Congresscritters are going to do for us. > >> > >> --R > >> > >> > >> > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121244985951839615.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> http://www.okiebenz.com > >> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > >> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > >> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > >> > >> > > ___ > > http://www.okiebenz.com > > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > > > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Would that were true. The problem I see with this is that it is yet another thing created by lobbyists and those looking to raise taxes with no clear point to it other than to screw the taxpayers, again, in a new way under the scare of global warming or climate change or whatever is the current fad name. (Back in the 70s, the gloom and doom was global cooling, we were all going to freeze and starve in the dark. Big "ps" by the scientists on that one I guess.) Things like this have no measurable effect on the ostensible goal but do have a way of taking lots money from one pot (that would be yours and mine) with taxes, either direct or indirect, and putting it in another pot (that would be those who feed at the trough) for "programs." That is just the way it works, rhetoric and laudable goals are just lipstick on the pig. The real problem is that the developing world all wants to live like those of us in the developed world, and will do whatever they need to get there (e.g., building lots of cheap and dirty CFPPs as fast as they can build them). That is not good, and this "legislation" will do nothing to affect that. The Indians and Chinese really could not care less what we think about their practices in that regard -- they have their own people to answer to, and carbon emissions are pretty low on their scale of concerns. The real answer is not to tax us to death, it's to spend some money on actually trying to do something to develop practical alternatives, whether conservation, new sources of energy, better technology, or anything else. That gives us something to sell to those who want to be like us, and weans us from the wackos who sell us oil now. It's a lot easier to raise taxes for some dubious purpose though, and seem like they have "done something." So far, none of the politicians have stepped up to the real hard problem, and I expect none of them will. More panem et circes for the masses though. --R andrew strasfogel wrote: > It's about time they did something useful. > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Rich Thomas < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> Y'all might want to edumacate yourselves on this thing our >> Congresscritters are going to do for us. >> >> --R >> >> >> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121244985951839615.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries >> >> >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ >> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >> >> > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
It's about time they did something useful. On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Rich Thomas < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Y'all might want to edumacate yourselves on this thing our > Congresscritters are going to do for us. > > --R > > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121244985951839615.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] America's Climate Security Act
Y'all might want to edumacate yourselves on this thing our Congresscritters are going to do for us. --R http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121244985951839615.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
