Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 21:00:18 -0700 G Mann via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Calculation could get complicated, once you factor in release point for
> greatest distance and trajectory vectors. However, it sounds like some
> nice "math fun"...

It's actually not all that difficult; I have done it before, but just
don't remember the results. In doing it, one assumes a vacuum and uses
an angle of 45 degrees above horizontal (which will give larger than
actual distance, but with a compact object not all that much). One then
uses the vertical component of the velocity to determine how long the
object will be "in the air". Once the time has been figured, one uses
the (same magnitude) horizontal component of the velocity to figure out
the distance travelled.

And, yes, it is "math fun".


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 They're not super sonic but they're dang fast. The rpms are low but the swept 
area is large...
-Curt

On Sunday, January 26, 2020, 10:10:13 PM EST, Clay via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 The obvious solution is what is done on leading edges of those big old 
airplanes.  Use a good de-icer before take off, then have the expansion 
doohickey engage when ice builds up.  Shed chunks at speed.  I wonder just how 
far you could fling a one pound chunk of ice off the end of a 130 foot long 
blade.  The things are not spinning fast enough that the tips are supersonic

clay


> On Jan 26, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Max Dillon via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Somebody already mentioned it: heat the wind turbine blades to keep ice from 
> forming. Easy solution. Next problem?
> 
> 
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

that would be a glorified trebuchet.


G Mann via Mercedes 
January 26, 2020 at 10:00 PM
Calculation could get complicated, once you factor in release point for
greatest distance and trajectory vectors. However, it sounds like some 
nice

"math fun"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mAIy_TUuHk
This link will take you to a youtube video of some folks throwing things
with things that rotate. Just to get you into the mood for throwing an ice
chunk...;))
Perhaps, we could start an industry using old wind turbine blades?

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 8:49 PM Craig via Mercedes 



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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Or 1082.675 ft/second.

If a rotor has 125' blades and say 2' from center to the base of the 
rotor, the circumference would be πD or  254π = 797.964 ft.    So if the 
rotor made one revolution per second, the tip would be traveling at 798 
FPS.   (Subsonic)


If the rotor was 300' Dia.  then the circumference is 942.477 ft.   at 1 
rev/sec. it would be subsonic at sea level, but probably as close as you 
want to get in practice.

Craig via Mercedes 
January 26, 2020 at 9:48 PM
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:09:25 -0900 Clay via Mercedes

Remember, the speed of sound at sea level is 330 meters/second = 738 mph.

I can figure out how far something with a starting velocity of, say,
500 mph would travel, but that will have to wait for now.


Craig


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Calculation could get complicated, once you factor in release point for
greatest distance and trajectory vectors. However, it sounds like some nice
"math fun"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mAIy_TUuHk
This link will take you to a youtube video of some folks throwing things
with things that rotate. Just to get you into the mood for throwing an ice
chunk...;))
Perhaps, we could start an industry using old wind turbine blades?

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 8:49 PM Craig via Mercedes 
wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:09:25 -0900 Clay via Mercedes
>  wrote:
>
> > The obvious solution is what is done on leading edges of those big old
> > airplanes.  Use a good de-icer before take off, then have the expansion
> > doohickey engage when ice builds up.  Shed chunks at speed.  I wonder
> > just how far you could fling a one pound chunk of ice off the end of a
> > 130 foot long blade.  The things are not spinning fast enough that the
> > tips are supersonic
>
> Remember, the speed of sound at sea level is 330 meters/second = 738 mph.
>
> I can figure out how far something with a starting velocity of, say,
> 500 mph would travel, but that will have to wait for now.
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:09:25 -0900 Clay via Mercedes
 wrote:

> The obvious solution is what is done on leading edges of those big old
> airplanes.  Use a good de-icer before take off, then have the expansion
> doohickey engage when ice builds up.  Shed chunks at speed.  I wonder
> just how far you could fling a one pound chunk of ice off the end of a
> 130 foot long blade.  The things are not spinning fast enough that the
> tips are supersonic

Remember, the speed of sound at sea level is 330 meters/second = 738 mph.

I can figure out how far something with a starting velocity of, say,
500 mph would travel, but that will have to wait for now.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Clay via Mercedes]

The obvious solution is what is done on leading edges of those big old 
airplanes.  Use a good de-icer before take off, then have the expansion 
doohickey engage when ice builds up.  Shed chunks at speed.  I wonder just how 
far you could fling a one pound chunk of ice off the end of a 130 foot long 
blade.  The things are not spinning fast enough that the tips are supersonic

clay


> On Jan 26, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Max Dillon via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Somebody already mentioned it: heat the wind turbine blades to keep ice from 
> forming. Easy solution. Next problem?
> 
> 
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Having experienced ice release on propellers while flying, I can attest
that when a chunk of ice hits the airplane and opens a hole in the cockpit
behind you it is a near panic event..
Ice does not accumulate in smooth layers. It depends on the droplet size of
the moisture, cooling, and other factors. Each segment of the rotating
blades is at a different speed, thus a different cooling effect.. plus,
other factors.

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 8:52 AM Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> > Ice at ballistic speeds aimed at the incoming airplanes
>
> With an additional 1G in the downward direction it seems unlikely to me
> that it'd choose to let loose above the horizontal.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Ice at ballistic speeds aimed at the incoming airplanes

With an additional 1G in the downward direction it seems unlikely to me that 
it'd choose to let loose above the horizontal.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Michael Esh via Mercedes]

In support of warming the blades. 

https://www.windpowerengineering.com/the-cold-hard-truth-about-ice-on-turbine-blades/

Michael E. Esh


> On Jan 26, 2020, at 8:38 AM, Max Dillon via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Somebody already mentioned it: heat the wind turbine blades to keep ice from 
> forming. Easy solution. Next problem?
> 
> 
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Somebody already mentioned it: heat the wind turbine blades to keep ice from 
forming. Easy solution. Next problem?


Max Dillon
Charleston SC


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Humidity is a big issue in homes like this, even in places like AK where there 
is no humidity. We built a home with this kind of technology for the time in 
1990/91 in WI and we had to use an air to air heat exchanger and dehumidifier. 
Our house had 6” exterior walls with a Tyvec barrier wrap. It was tight.

It was definitely cheap(er) to operate in the winter compared to typical homes 
in that climate. However, you had to be aware of the humidity getting out of 
control. Our next door neighbor, a neck cracker, was very vain and took showers 
like 2-3 times a day. After three years they had to gut and replace the master 
bath because the drywall was destroyed from his multiple daily showers.

-D


> On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:40 PM, Clay via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> Leading edges delaminate and increase drag until a fresh set of blades are 
> installed.  In the event of high enough relative humidity in big cold, the 
> wind farms tend to idle the blades.  That way nothing gets hurt.  Nor are 
> electrons made.  A viable solution with that giant push away from combustion 
> process for heat creating.  Just switch it all to electric heat and you get 
> to save the world.
> 
> I was reading about the super efficient homes getting built.  Something like 
> R40 walls and R80 ceilings.  2x12 framing, super air tight, triple glazed 
> windows, but you only get a handful, so a big need for artificial lighting.  
> Some guy was quoted that he would be able to heat the place with a pair of 
> hair driers.  Three kilowatt x 24, 72 kilowatt a day?  Toss in a fridge, box 
> freezer, lots of LED lights, induction stove and microwave, washer and dryer, 
> humidity controls, plug in car, outdoor lighting…. $0.35 kilowatt hour.
> 
> clay
> 
> 
>> On Jan 25, 2020, at 7:59 AM, G Mann via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> How do large wind mill blades preform with ice conditions?
>> Ice destroys aerodynamic  life quickly on airplanes, with wind turbines,
>> you have to contend with the balance issue caused by ice as well
>> Easily, I could see a self destruct happening with strong winds and ice...
>> in AK
>> 
>> Hmmm,, not a perfect world for alternate energy yet again..
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Clay via Mercedes]

Ice at ballistic speeds aimed at the incoming airplanes (Fire Island with the 
windmills is in the flight path and across the water from ANC.  Imagine the 
fireworks if a chunk struck the engine of an incoming 747 800 instead of some 
Iranian missile hitting a plane taking off.

clay


> On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:56 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> that's true if you hang a gallon water jug at the end of one rotor.   
> However, my thought is that if the blades are spinning, the buildup would be 
> pretty equal on each blade surface.   But I believe they shut down the 
> windmills when potential icing conditions exist.   but like I said, who needs 
> power with it is dark and cold and windy?Once they are shutdown, they 
> would have to stay that way until conditions melt off the ice.   You sure 
> would NOT want them slinging ice off at whatever the rotational velocity is.
> 
>> G Mann via Mercedes 
>> January 25, 2020 at 12:33 PM
>> < The rotors turn so slow, I am not sure imbalance is a big problem.>>>

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

that's true if you hang a gallon water jug at the end of one rotor.   
However, my thought is that if the blades are spinning, the buildup 
would be pretty equal on each blade surface.   But I believe they shut 
down the windmills when potential icing conditions exist.   but like I 
said, who needs power with it is dark and cold and windy?    Once they 
are shutdown, they would have to stay that way until conditions melt off 
the ice.   You sure would NOT want them slinging ice off at whatever the 
rotational velocity is.



G Mann via Mercedes 
January 25, 2020 at 12:33 PM
< The rotors turn so slow, I am not sure imbalance is a big 
problem.>>>


Blades are, say, 90 ft long Ice [water] is roughly 8 lb per gallon...
for the sake of simple math, let's put a single 8 lb load 90 ft from
rotational center. Now, do the math for 8 lbs, with a 90 ft moment arm
How much out of balance load does that represent at 1 RPM at 20 RPM...
at the wind shutdown limit speed? [what ever that may be.]...
Could become "interesting" rather quickly because the cord of the blade
[total surface area to collect ice] would factor in the real world 
equation

as well...
My... how reality sucks when you live in a perfect fantasy* world...*



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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Many new super-insulated houses use insulation on the outside (vs 2x12 studs).  
Vapor and air barriers (sometimes separate things) are critical to prevent 
water collection inside walls.

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> Clay via Mercedes
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 4:41 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Clay 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for
> wind turbines
> 
> Leading edges delaminate and increase drag until a fresh set of blades are
> installed.  In the event of high enough relative humidity in big cold, the 
> wind
> farms tend to idle the blades.  That way nothing gets hurt.  Nor are electrons
> made.  A viable solution with that giant push away from combustion process
> for heat creating.  Just switch it all to electric heat and you get to save 
> the
> world.
> 
> I was reading about the super efficient homes getting built.  Something like 
> R40
> walls and R80 ceilings.  2x12 framing, super air tight, triple glazed 
> windows, but
> you only get a handful, so a big need for artificial lighting.  Some guy was
> quoted that he would be able to heat the place with a pair of hair driers.  
> Three
> kilowatt x 24, 72 kilowatt a day?  Toss in a fridge, box freezer, lots of LED 
> lights,
> induction stove and microwave, washer and dryer, humidity controls, plug in
> car, outdoor lighting…. $0.35 kilowatt hour.
> 
> clay
> 
> 
> > On Jan 25, 2020, at 7:59 AM, G Mann via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> >
> > How do large wind mill blades preform with ice conditions?
> > Ice destroys aerodynamic  life quickly on airplanes, with wind
> > turbines, you have to contend with the balance issue caused by ice as 
> > well
> > Easily, I could see a self destruct happening with strong winds and ice...
> > in AK
> >
> > Hmmm,, not a perfect world for alternate energy yet again..
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Clay via Mercedes]

AK has massive trapped natural gas resource.  Only able to access the stuff in 
Cook Inlet, close to ANC.  The stuff up north requires around $40bn to get 
south enough for urban use or export.  Nobody wants to spend that much on the 
pipeline, let alone have the state and private venture folks figured out where 
to route it.  Probably not going to happen.  There is a plan to build an off 
shore CNG port and plant once the ice cap recedes enough for easy shipping to 
Asia.  Seems the West Coast has banned the use of NG.  Let them burn kale to 
keep warm

clay monroe


> On Jan 25, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> the large new windmill fields are often shut down in those conditions.   
>  Lessee... extreme cold, short days, people inside, needing heat, aux. 
> electric heat is probably on.   Yeah, perfect time to shut down the 
> windmills, cuz Lektric demand is down.   
> 
>> G Mann via Mercedes 
>> January 25, 2020 at 10:59 AM
>> How do large wind mill blades preform with ice conditions?
>> Ice destroys aerodynamic life quickly on airplanes, with wind turbines,
>> you have to contend with the balance issue caused by ice as well
>> Easily, I could see a self destruct happening with strong winds and ice...
>> in AK
>> 
>> Hmmm,, not a perfect world for alternate energy yet again..

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Clay via Mercedes]

Leading edges delaminate and increase drag until a fresh set of blades are 
installed.  In the event of high enough relative humidity in big cold, the wind 
farms tend to idle the blades.  That way nothing gets hurt.  Nor are electrons 
made.  A viable solution with that giant push away from combustion process for 
heat creating.  Just switch it all to electric heat and you get to save the 
world.

I was reading about the super efficient homes getting built.  Something like 
R40 walls and R80 ceilings.  2x12 framing, super air tight, triple glazed 
windows, but you only get a handful, so a big need for artificial lighting.  
Some guy was quoted that he would be able to heat the place with a pair of hair 
driers.  Three kilowatt x 24, 72 kilowatt a day?  Toss in a fridge, box 
freezer, lots of LED lights, induction stove and microwave, washer and dryer, 
humidity controls, plug in car, outdoor lighting…. $0.35 kilowatt hour.

clay


> On Jan 25, 2020, at 7:59 AM, G Mann via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> How do large wind mill blades preform with ice conditions?
> Ice destroys aerodynamic  life quickly on airplanes, with wind turbines,
> you have to contend with the balance issue caused by ice as well
> Easily, I could see a self destruct happening with strong winds and ice...
> in AK
> 
> Hmmm,, not a perfect world for alternate energy yet again..

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Yet, there are thousands of them out there operating in icing conditions
today -

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 12:34 PM G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:

>  Could become "interesting" rather quickly because the cord of the blade
> [total surface area to collect ice] would factor in the real world equation
> as well...
> My... how reality sucks when you live in a perfect fantasy* world...*
>
>
-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Wait for it to melt!

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 11:34 AM Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> Typically wind turbines are braked and shut down in periods of high wind.
> But how do you start it back up when it's out of balance from ice
> accumulation?
>
>
-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[G Mann via Mercedes]

With a multi blade installation the ice weight balance point is very
likely different for each blade... equating to out of balance load against
the rotational center of mass.
Should be fun to watch... from a distance... through heavy lens.

Thanks Craig... I knew we had a learned expert math fellow in our midst.
You nail it nicely with the formula.

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 11:28 AM Craig via Mercedes 
wrote:

> On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:51:21 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes
>  wrote:
>
> > Wait til spring?The rotors turn so slow, I am not sure imbalance is
> > a big problem.
>
>   4 pi^2 m r
> F = --
>  t^2
> where,  F = Centrifugal force
>pi = 3.14159...
> m = mass
> r = radius of mass
> t = rotational period
>
> t may be smaller than we are used to in automobiles, etc., but m can be
> rather high and r can be huge.
>
> I would say imbalance can be a problem.
>
> Now if the blades are heated ...
>
>
> Craig
>
>
> P.S. The formula above is where my domain name came from.
>
>
> > > Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> > > January 25, 2020 at 11:33 AM
> > >
> > > Typically wind turbines are braked and shut down in periods of high
> > > wind. But how do you start it back up when it's out of balance from
> > > ice accumulation?
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[G Mann via Mercedes]

 < The rotors turn so slow, I am not sure imbalance is a big problem.>>>

Blades are, say, 90 ft long Ice [water] is roughly 8 lb per gallon...
for the sake of simple math, let's put a single 8 lb load 90 ft from
rotational center. Now, do the math for 8 lbs, with a 90 ft moment arm
How much out of balance load does that represent at 1 RPM at 20 RPM...
at the wind shutdown limit speed? [what ever that may be.]...
Could become "interesting" rather quickly because the cord of the blade
[total surface area to collect ice] would factor in the real world equation
as well...
My... how reality sucks when you live in a perfect fantasy* world...*

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 10:52 AM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Wait til spring?The rotors turn so slow, I am not sure imbalance is
> a big problem.
>
> > Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> > January 25, 2020 at 11:33 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > Typically wind turbines are braked and shut down in periods of high wind.
> > But how do you start it back up when it's out of balance from ice
> > accumulation?
> >
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:51:21 -0600 Curley McLain via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Wait til spring?    The rotors turn so slow, I am not sure imbalance is 
> a big problem.

  4 pi^2 m r
F = --
 t^2
where,  F = Centrifugal force
   pi = 3.14159...
m = mass
r = radius of mass
t = rotational period

t may be smaller than we are used to in automobiles, etc., but m can be
rather high and r can be huge.

I would say imbalance can be a problem.

Now if the blades are heated ...


Craig


P.S. The formula above is where my domain name came from.


> > Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> > January 25, 2020 at 11:33 AM
> >
> > Typically wind turbines are braked and shut down in periods of high
> > wind. But how do you start it back up when it's out of balance from
> > ice accumulation?

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Wait til spring?    The rotors turn so slow, I am not sure imbalance is 
a big problem.



Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
January 25, 2020 at 11:33 AM



Typically wind turbines are braked and shut down in periods of high wind.
But how do you start it back up when it's out of balance from ice 
accumulation?




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

the large new windmill fields are often shut down in those conditions.   
 Lessee... extreme cold, short days, people inside, needing heat, 
aux. electric heat is probably on.   Yeah, perfect time to shut down the 
windmills, cuz Lektric demand is down.   



G Mann via Mercedes 
January 25, 2020 at 10:59 AM
How do large wind mill blades preform with ice conditions?
Ice destroys aerodynamic life quickly on airplanes, with wind turbines,
you have to contend with the balance issue caused by ice as well
Easily, I could see a self destruct happening with strong winds and ice...
in AK

Hmmm,, not a perfect world for alternate energy yet again..


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

How do large wind mill blades preform with ice conditions?
Ice destroys aerodynamic  life quickly on airplanes, with wind turbines,
you have to contend with the balance issue caused by ice as well
Easily, I could see a self destruct happening with strong winds and ice...
in AK



Typically wind turbines are braked and shut down in periods of high wind.
But how do you start it back up when it's out of balance from ice accumulation?

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Thorium reactors 

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 10:08 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> No easy solutions...
>
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 1:54 AM Clay via Mercedes 
> wrote:
>
> > Alaska, having energy islands and no viable grid to deliver electrons,
> > seems almost able to financially justify (with a bunch of Greenie Weenie
> > huzzah) installing wind platforms.  The original option for electric
> > utility power has been those generator sets Dan knows about.  Industrial
> > diesel engines that belch out smoke and cost close to $15/gallon to
> power.
> > The fuel has to be barged in by the barrel.  Propellors allow the utility
> > to cut back on all those gallons, but with a giant investment in
> stability
> > measures (battery, flywheel).  Not sure I recall what base load providers
> > are.
> >
> > clay
> >
> > > On Jan 22, 2020, at 6:34 AM, G Mann via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > All "Drink the Alternate Energy Koolaid" aside, I have yet to see any
> > > financial report that presents a viable Return on Investment where
> costs
> > of
> > > build/install/land cost for a "wind farm" has returned a profit in
> actual
> > > energy produced and sold.
> > >
> > > Bottom line remains. If Government money were not thrown at projects
> for
> > > wind farms, they would fold instantly for lack of profit...
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 8:21 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
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>

-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[G Mann via Mercedes]

How do large wind mill blades preform with ice conditions?
Ice destroys aerodynamic  life quickly on airplanes, with wind turbines,
you have to contend with the balance issue caused by ice as well
Easily, I could see a self destruct happening with strong winds and ice...
in AK

Hmmm,, not a perfect world for alternate energy yet again..

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 9:08 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> No easy solutions...
>
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 1:54 AM Clay via Mercedes 
> wrote:
>
> > Alaska, having energy islands and no viable grid to deliver electrons,
> > seems almost able to financially justify (with a bunch of Greenie Weenie
> > huzzah) installing wind platforms.  The original option for electric
> > utility power has been those generator sets Dan knows about.  Industrial
> > diesel engines that belch out smoke and cost close to $15/gallon to
> power.
> > The fuel has to be barged in by the barrel.  Propellors allow the utility
> > to cut back on all those gallons, but with a giant investment in
> stability
> > measures (battery, flywheel).  Not sure I recall what base load providers
> > are.
> >
> > clay
> >
> > > On Jan 22, 2020, at 6:34 AM, G Mann via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > All "Drink the Alternate Energy Koolaid" aside, I have yet to see any
> > > financial report that presents a viable Return on Investment where
> costs
> > of
> > > build/install/land cost for a "wind farm" has returned a profit in
> actual
> > > energy produced and sold.
> > >
> > > Bottom line remains. If Government money were not thrown at projects
> for
> > > wind farms, they would fold instantly for lack of profit...
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 8:21 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

No easy solutions...

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 1:54 AM Clay via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Alaska, having energy islands and no viable grid to deliver electrons,
> seems almost able to financially justify (with a bunch of Greenie Weenie
> huzzah) installing wind platforms.  The original option for electric
> utility power has been those generator sets Dan knows about.  Industrial
> diesel engines that belch out smoke and cost close to $15/gallon to power.
> The fuel has to be barged in by the barrel.  Propellors allow the utility
> to cut back on all those gallons, but with a giant investment in stability
> measures (battery, flywheel).  Not sure I recall what base load providers
> are.
>
> clay
>
> > On Jan 22, 2020, at 6:34 AM, G Mann via Mercedes 
> wrote:
> >
> > All "Drink the Alternate Energy Koolaid" aside, I have yet to see any
> > financial report that presents a viable Return on Investment where costs
> of
> > build/install/land cost for a "wind farm" has returned a profit in actual
> > energy produced and sold.
> >
> > Bottom line remains. If Government money were not thrown at projects for
> > wind farms, they would fold instantly for lack of profit...
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 8:21 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Clay via Mercedes]

Alaska, having energy islands and no viable grid to deliver electrons, seems 
almost able to financially justify (with a bunch of Greenie Weenie huzzah) 
installing wind platforms.  The original option for electric utility power has 
been those generator sets Dan knows about.  Industrial diesel engines that 
belch out smoke and cost close to $15/gallon to power.  The fuel has to be 
barged in by the barrel.  Propellors allow the utility to cut back on all those 
gallons, but with a giant investment in stability measures (battery, flywheel). 
 Not sure I recall what base load providers are.

clay

> On Jan 22, 2020, at 6:34 AM, G Mann via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> All "Drink the Alternate Energy Koolaid" aside, I have yet to see any
> financial report that presents a viable Return on Investment where costs of
> build/install/land cost for a "wind farm" has returned a profit in actual
> energy produced and sold.
> 
> Bottom line remains. If Government money were not thrown at projects for
> wind farms, they would fold instantly for lack of profit...
> 
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 8:21 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

We voters really are too damn lazy to really hold the political class
accountable, and so the only question becomes "What price a Senator?".

More and more of the stupid largess and outright wealth transfer needs to
be targeted and stopped.  Meanwhile we get "Impeachment" circus and never
ending campaign seasons to keep the masses distracted from the robbery.

-
Max
Charleston SC


On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 10:35 AM G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:

> All "Drink the Alternate Energy Koolaid" aside, I have yet to see any
> financial report that presents a viable Return on Investment where costs of
> build/install/land cost for a "wind farm" has returned a profit in actual
> energy produced and sold.
>
> Bottom line remains. If Government money were not thrown at projects for
> wind farms, they would fold instantly for lack of profit...
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 8:21 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > They (DOE) are part of the Deep State Department, until drained and
> > reclaimed for proper usage.
> >
> > Max Dillon
> > Charleston SC
> >
> > Jan 21, 2020 9:53:30 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com
> > >:
> >
> > > probably more appropriate to say "the Dept of Energy President Trump
> > > inherited." unless you can show us that the current president has
> > > appointed the majority of DOEnergy employees.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
> > > > January 21, 2020 at 8:10 PM
> > > > Duh. Obviously, they are not appropriate everywhere. Like where there
> > is
> > > > no wind! All things considered, the glass is more than 1/2 full.
> > > >
> > > > Even coal-loving Trump's Dept. of Energy has good things to say about
> > wind
> > > > power.
> > > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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> >
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> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Well said!   In many cases, same for solar.

I was shocked that Vestas admitted the total life output for a windmill 
was only 30 times the input energy.   That is abysmal.


And NOBODY has addressed the long term impact on the land where they are 
planted.   At least with solar the impact on the land is minimal.


There is no way on earth anyone will go back and dig out the millions or 
billions of cubic yards of concrete in 20-30 years when the windmills 
are shut down.   It is simply feel good politics.


If you don't believe me, fly to Hawaii, drive down the road to South 
Point, and tell me what you see.   by now, Helco has probably shut down 
the "new" windfarm, so those will be rusting away too.



G Mann via Mercedes 
January 22, 2020 at 9:34 AM
All "Drink the Alternate Energy Koolaid" aside, I have yet to see any
financial report that presents a viable Return on Investment where 
costs of

build/install/land cost for a "wind farm" has returned a profit in actual
energy produced and sold.

Bottom line remains. If Government money were not thrown at projects for
wind farms, they would fold instantly for lack of profit...



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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[G Mann via Mercedes]

All "Drink the Alternate Energy Koolaid" aside, I have yet to see any
financial report that presents a viable Return on Investment where costs of
build/install/land cost for a "wind farm" has returned a profit in actual
energy produced and sold.

Bottom line remains. If Government money were not thrown at projects for
wind farms, they would fold instantly for lack of profit...

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 8:21 PM Max Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> They (DOE) are part of the Deep State Department, until drained and
> reclaimed for proper usage.
>
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
>
> Jan 21, 2020 9:53:30 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes  >:
>
> > probably more appropriate to say "the Dept of Energy President Trump
> > inherited." unless you can show us that the current president has
> > appointed the majority of DOEnergy employees.
> >
> >
> > > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
> > > January 21, 2020 at 8:10 PM
> > > Duh. Obviously, they are not appropriate everywhere. Like where there
> is
> > > no wind! All things considered, the glass is more than 1/2 full.
> > >
> > > Even coal-loving Trump's Dept. of Energy has good things to say about
> wind
> > > power.
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

They (DOE) are part of the Deep State Department, until drained and reclaimed 
for proper usage.

Max Dillon
Charleston SC

Jan 21, 2020 9:53:30 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes :

> probably more appropriate to say "the Dept of Energy President Trump
> inherited." unless you can show us that the current president has
> appointed the majority of DOEnergy employees.
> 
> 
> > Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
> > January 21, 2020 at 8:10 PM
> > Duh. Obviously, they are not appropriate everywhere. Like where there is
> > no wind! All things considered, the glass is more than 1/2 full.
> > 
> > Even coal-loving Trump's Dept. of Energy has good things to say about wind
> > power.
> > 
> 
> ___
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

probably more appropriate to say "the Dept of Energy President Trump 
inherited."   unless you can show us that the current president has 
appointed the majority of DOEnergy employees.



Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
January 21, 2020 at 8:10 PM
Duh. Obviously, they are not appropriate everywhere. Like where there is
no wind! All things considered, the glass is more than 1/2 full.

Even coal-loving Trump's Dept. of Energy has good things to say about wind
power.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

Can you back up that characterization?

> On January 21, 2020 at 9:10 PM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Even coal-loving Trump's Dept. of Energy...

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Duh.  Obviously, they are not appropriate everywhere.  Like where there is
no wind!  All things considered, the glass is more than 1/2 full.

Even coal-loving Trump's Dept. of Energy has good things to say about wind
power.

"The United States is home to one of the largest and fastest-growing wind
markets  in the world. To stay
competitive in this sector, the Energy Department invests in wind research
and development projects
, both on
land and offshore, to advance technology innovations, create job
opportunities
 and
boost economic growth.

Moving forward, the U.S. wind industry remains a critical part of the
Energy Department’s all-of-the-above energy strategy to cut carbon
pollution, diversify our energy economy and bring the next generation
 of
American-made clean energy technologies
 to
market."
https://www.energy.gov/science-innovation/energy-sources/renewable-energy/wind


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 5:05 PM Clay via Mercedes 
wrote:

> yeah,
>
> I am still trying to figure out where and how the Alaskans are going to
> hide the giant blades from all the windmills they are putting up.  They are
> sprouting up like mushrooms on cow patties and the largest so far are 140
> foot long.  Wonder if the landfill will take 120 of those bad boys in
> 2040.  The little villages maybe turn the perished blades into canoes.
> Second life for delaminated junk.  Or, they are giant sledges for the snow
> machines.
>
>
>
> clay
>
>
> > On Jan 21, 2020, at 8:19 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > WINDVestas takes biggest step yet toward zero turbine waste*Published:
> > Tuesday, January 21, 2020*
> >
> > Vestas Wind Systems A/S, the world's largest maker of wind turbines, has
> > pledged to eliminate all waste in the production of its machines by 2040
> as
> > part of its drive to hit carbon neutrality by the start of the next
> decade.
> >
> > With wind power estimated to make up more than a quarter of the world's
> > power mix by 2050, installation of turbines will proliferate but with
> that
> > comes the problem of increased amounts of industrial waste.
> >
> > Developers will come under more pressure to clean up a manufacturing
> > process that will see waste from turbine blades alone reaching 43 million
> > tons by 2050, according to a Cambridge University study, or roughly the
> > U.K.'s annual industrial and commercial waste.
> >
> > Vestas is drawing up a strategy to clean up the design, production,
> > servicing and end-of-life treatment of its turbines. The Aarhus,
> > Denmark-based manufacturer said it's the first among its competitors to
> > announce a zero-waste ambition and aims to publish its plan within two
> > years.
> >
> > "We have to make sure the strategy materializes in concrete actions,"
> > Anders Vedel, Vestas' chief technology officer, said in a phone
> interview.
> > "What we do foresee is a change in some of the core materials that we're
> > using. We want to develop new materials which are biodegradable that can
> > substitute the present materials."
> >
> > Despite turbine manufacturers being at the forefront of the energy
> > transition, production involves energy-intensive processes such as making
> > steel, cement and fiberglass. Historically, manufacturers haven't
> included
> > the environmental impact of parts that originate outside their business,
> > but that may change as companies are forced to take more responsibility
> for
> > their supply chains.
> >
> > While 85% of Vestas turbines are recyclable, blades and hubs are made up
> of
> > non-recyclable materials — such as carbon fiber, fiberglass and glues.
> The
> > company has said that it will work with suppliers and partners toward
> > increasing the recycling rates of its blades and hubs from 44% today to
> 55%
> > by 2030.
> >
> > "Design is often overlooked in recycling and circular economy efforts,
> but
> > it's extremely important. To have Vestas focusing on this will make the
> > jobs of everyone further down the recycling supply chain easier," said
> > Julia Attwood, a New York-based BloombergNEF analyst. "Announcements are
> > coming thick and fast in the circular economy these days, but the acid
> test
> > is how much they're willing to invest."
> >
> > Turbines produced by Vestas generate 30-50 times the amount of energy
> > that's consumed to manufacture the units thanks to gains made in how much
> > power can be extracted from the most recent models, according to
> Bloomberg
> > Intelligence analysis. Vestas said it plans to introduce a new process
> > around decommissioning and work with its customers to reduce the amount
> of
> > waste material being sent to landfill.
> >

Re: [MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Clay via Mercedes]

yeah,

I am still trying to figure out where and how the Alaskans are going to hide 
the giant blades from all the windmills they are putting up.  They are 
sprouting up like mushrooms on cow patties and the largest so far are 140 foot 
long.  Wonder if the landfill will take 120 of those bad boys in 2040.  The 
little villages maybe turn the perished blades into canoes.  Second life for 
delaminated junk.  Or, they are giant sledges for the snow machines.



clay


> On Jan 21, 2020, at 8:19 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> WINDVestas takes biggest step yet toward zero turbine waste*Published:
> Tuesday, January 21, 2020*
> 
> Vestas Wind Systems A/S, the world's largest maker of wind turbines, has
> pledged to eliminate all waste in the production of its machines by 2040 as
> part of its drive to hit carbon neutrality by the start of the next decade.
> 
> With wind power estimated to make up more than a quarter of the world's
> power mix by 2050, installation of turbines will proliferate but with that
> comes the problem of increased amounts of industrial waste.
> 
> Developers will come under more pressure to clean up a manufacturing
> process that will see waste from turbine blades alone reaching 43 million
> tons by 2050, according to a Cambridge University study, or roughly the
> U.K.'s annual industrial and commercial waste.
> 
> Vestas is drawing up a strategy to clean up the design, production,
> servicing and end-of-life treatment of its turbines. The Aarhus,
> Denmark-based manufacturer said it's the first among its competitors to
> announce a zero-waste ambition and aims to publish its plan within two
> years.
> 
> "We have to make sure the strategy materializes in concrete actions,"
> Anders Vedel, Vestas' chief technology officer, said in a phone interview.
> "What we do foresee is a change in some of the core materials that we're
> using. We want to develop new materials which are biodegradable that can
> substitute the present materials."
> 
> Despite turbine manufacturers being at the forefront of the energy
> transition, production involves energy-intensive processes such as making
> steel, cement and fiberglass. Historically, manufacturers haven't included
> the environmental impact of parts that originate outside their business,
> but that may change as companies are forced to take more responsibility for
> their supply chains.
> 
> While 85% of Vestas turbines are recyclable, blades and hubs are made up of
> non-recyclable materials — such as carbon fiber, fiberglass and glues. The
> company has said that it will work with suppliers and partners toward
> increasing the recycling rates of its blades and hubs from 44% today to 55%
> by 2030.
> 
> "Design is often overlooked in recycling and circular economy efforts, but
> it's extremely important. To have Vestas focusing on this will make the
> jobs of everyone further down the recycling supply chain easier," said
> Julia Attwood, a New York-based BloombergNEF analyst. "Announcements are
> coming thick and fast in the circular economy these days, but the acid test
> is how much they're willing to invest."
> 
> Turbines produced by Vestas generate 30-50 times the amount of energy
> that's consumed to manufacture the units thanks to gains made in how much
> power can be extracted from the most recent models, according to Bloomberg
> Intelligence analysis. Vestas said it plans to introduce a new process
> around decommissioning and work with its customers to reduce the amount of
> waste material being sent to landfill.
> 
> Earlier this month Vestas unveiled its plan to become carbon neutral by
> 2030 by slashing emissions across its business. It'll spend the next five
> years investing in about 5,000 vehicles that run on electricity or other
> forms of renewable energy.
> 
> "Vestas has a responsibility to eliminate waste across its value chain,"
> Tommy Rahbek Nielsen, the company's interim chief operating officer, said
> in a statement. "Wind energy will continue to grow rapidly, therefore the
> time for a conservative approach is behind us."
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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[MBZ] OT: Life cycle costs for manufacturing waste, recycling for wind turbines

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

WINDVestas takes biggest step yet toward zero turbine waste*Published:
Tuesday, January 21, 2020*

Vestas Wind Systems A/S, the world's largest maker of wind turbines, has
pledged to eliminate all waste in the production of its machines by 2040 as
part of its drive to hit carbon neutrality by the start of the next decade.

With wind power estimated to make up more than a quarter of the world's
power mix by 2050, installation of turbines will proliferate but with that
comes the problem of increased amounts of industrial waste.

Developers will come under more pressure to clean up a manufacturing
process that will see waste from turbine blades alone reaching 43 million
tons by 2050, according to a Cambridge University study, or roughly the
U.K.'s annual industrial and commercial waste.

Vestas is drawing up a strategy to clean up the design, production,
servicing and end-of-life treatment of its turbines. The Aarhus,
Denmark-based manufacturer said it's the first among its competitors to
announce a zero-waste ambition and aims to publish its plan within two
years.

"We have to make sure the strategy materializes in concrete actions,"
Anders Vedel, Vestas' chief technology officer, said in a phone interview.
"What we do foresee is a change in some of the core materials that we're
using. We want to develop new materials which are biodegradable that can
substitute the present materials."

Despite turbine manufacturers being at the forefront of the energy
transition, production involves energy-intensive processes such as making
steel, cement and fiberglass. Historically, manufacturers haven't included
the environmental impact of parts that originate outside their business,
but that may change as companies are forced to take more responsibility for
their supply chains.

While 85% of Vestas turbines are recyclable, blades and hubs are made up of
non-recyclable materials — such as carbon fiber, fiberglass and glues. The
company has said that it will work with suppliers and partners toward
increasing the recycling rates of its blades and hubs from 44% today to 55%
by 2030.

"Design is often overlooked in recycling and circular economy efforts, but
it's extremely important. To have Vestas focusing on this will make the
jobs of everyone further down the recycling supply chain easier," said
Julia Attwood, a New York-based BloombergNEF analyst. "Announcements are
coming thick and fast in the circular economy these days, but the acid test
is how much they're willing to invest."

Turbines produced by Vestas generate 30-50 times the amount of energy
that's consumed to manufacture the units thanks to gains made in how much
power can be extracted from the most recent models, according to Bloomberg
Intelligence analysis. Vestas said it plans to introduce a new process
around decommissioning and work with its customers to reduce the amount of
waste material being sent to landfill.

Earlier this month Vestas unveiled its plan to become carbon neutral by
2030 by slashing emissions across its business. It'll spend the next five
years investing in about 5,000 vehicles that run on electricity or other
forms of renewable energy.

"Vestas has a responsibility to eliminate waste across its value chain,"
Tommy Rahbek Nielsen, the company's interim chief operating officer, said
in a statement. "Wind energy will continue to grow rapidly, therefore the
time for a conservative approach is behind us."
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com