Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Mountain Man]

mbforme wrote:
> First of all it was not the AIG Insurance division who brought down
> the world economy.

You are correct - I never made that claim, nor came near making that
type of claim.  My claim about insco goes deeper more years than the
past 2 years.  In principle, the practice is racketeering, pure and
simple.  There are common laws on the books against racketeering.
Proof is unobtanium, as they have been written in to the culture from
kindergarten.

> Secondly, you need to extend your thought process on your kill all the
> insurance companies theory.

Liability is only an issue when there is gobs of money to tap.  Lose
the gobs of money to tap, and liability is one mans shoes for another
mans boots.

> Third, and finally last to your relief, too bad you didn't start your
> insurance company

Never happen - read this thread.  Money is not an objective - it seems
to be a necessary evil.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[John Freer]

Mountain Man,
time to take you to task on your ramblings.

First of all it was not the AIG Insurance division who brought down
the world economy. An analogy would be to blame GE turbine/motor
building division for the loaning practices of GE Credit. Yes, the is
one Chairman but GE still builds great turbines as AIG does have some
good insurance products.

Secondly, you need to extend your thought process on your kill all the
insurance companies theory.Think it through man, all that would do is
to increase the legal liability of every individual like yourself and
snowball into a new herd of lawyers banging on your door or you
chasing someone who destroyed your MB with stick. (no offense to  Mr.
Snook, ESQ meant).

Third, and finally last to your relief, too bad you didn't start your
insurance company on Sept 10th, 2001 as the premiums charged on the
WTC for Property Damage and Loss of income was around .02/million
insured. WOW!

Of course that claim will finalize at something north of 1B paid.

Just pulling your leg but there are other things to consider when you
are mulling these things around.

You got your 6 ft hole dug yet? Frozen ground is just around the
corner in Chitown.

John


On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Mountain Man  wrote:
> Max wrote:
>> So you have a doctorate in statistics
>
> You might have that doctorate in statistics, but not me.
> I don't need that type of book learnin' to see that a for profit
> company that makes money hand over fist is a racket.  AIG? - c'mon.
> mao
>
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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Jim Cathey]

I was using "free market" in a very general sense simply
to mean a situation where there is *some* competition and *some*
choice for the consumer, rather than (say) a single
government-directed insurance provider (as is the situation with
respect to health insurance in most Western countries).


Once there is no competition, for the general user,
then it's game over.  "Svimwear..."

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Mountain Man]

Max wrote:
> So you have a doctorate in statistics

You might have that doctorate in statistics, but not me.
I don't need that type of book learnin' to see that a for profit
company that makes money hand over fist is a racket.  AIG? - c'mon.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 2:21 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:
> Alex Chamberlain wrote:
>>
>> It's a puzzle to me why a free-market approach to insurance
>> has produced such a broken system.
>
> You and I must have a very different definition of 'free market' if you
> think it describes the present situation in health insurance. We've even
> altered our tax code to meddle in that market.
> Mitch.

Good point.  I was using "free market" in a very general sense simply
to mean a situation where there is *some* competition and *some*
choice for the consumer, rather than (say) a single
government-directed insurance provider (as is the situation with
respect to health insurance in most Western countries).   I think it's
fair to say that in the USA government meddling in the insurance
business is a problem, but it's not the only problem.

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[LarryT]

I maybe wrong, but I think govt intervention is a big part of the problem. 
There's a need for the govt to do some things but they are in way too deep 
at the moment.  IMO.


Larry

OilAnalysis Time?
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--
From: "Alex Chamberlain" 
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:16 AM
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam


On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 5:36 PM, LarryT  wrote:

You wrote<>




If *any* company wants to be of value to their shareholders (who are the
owners of the company) the company must be receptive to their customers. 
IMO
, it doesn't matter if they are for profit or not.   Actually the case 
could

be made that a non-profit might treat customers worse.

Capitalism *will* work, if the government do-gooders can stay out of it. 
The
customer will drive the company toward excellence or they will go 
elsewhere.


I'm a staunch defender of the free market, and perfectly happy to let
it decide who gets what good and services, and at what prices, most of
the time.  It's a puzzle to me why a free-market approach to insurance
has produced such a broken system.  It seems like insurance is one of
the few businesses, perhaps the only, where profit is made explicitly
by *not* providing the customer the service for which he has
contracted and paid.  As you say, that should in theory put the
company out of business in the long term as word gets around that they
don't keep their word.  But it doesn't seem to.

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310]

I'm pretty sure it covers me.  While I had no health insurance, one of
the many projects I completed around the house was hanging a very
expensive chandelier from a very high ceiling.  Wife was terrified that
I would fall (I have a history - fell off my Dad's roof once) so we took
all reasonable precautions including calling USAA to see if our policy
would cover me if I fell off a ladder, and I would remember if they said
"No".  

To be as safe as possible without building a scaffold, I braced the feet
of a 20 foot ladder at floor-wall corner at bottom and put the top of
the ladder at kitty-corner wall-ceiling point, and then used a Swiss
seat and couple carabineers to secure me to the ladder.  USAA would have
been happy with that set-up I'm sure.

Max

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com
[mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:49 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

Meade: Take a look at your homeowner's policy. Does it cover you if you
slip and fall, or does it only cover you from getting sued by somebody
else who slips and falls?

I like HSA as a tax planning vehicle, and think that the only logical
use for insurance is to cover expenses that you can't afford to pay
yourself, so I favor high deductible insurance over 'pay for your
periodic check-ups' insurance.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Allan Streib]

On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:55 -0700, "Curt Raymond"  wrote:

> My health insurance is through my employer, I can't change it...

You could decline it and buy an individual policy.  Hopefully your employer 
would give you credit for what they would otherwise pay.  Some will, some wont.

I had a situation for a few years where the employer would cover 75% of the 
cost of *my* policy, but nothing for family coverage.  I could buy an 
individual, high-deductible plan for less than what it would have cost me to go 
through my employer, so I did.  My employer was willing to do a payroll 
witholding and pay for my individual plan pre-tax, so I got that benefit too.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Curt Raymond]

Nope. 

My health insurance is through my employer, I can't change it...

I've been considering changing my auto insurance, I'm sure I could get 
something cheaper. I have NO IDEA if my car insurance co is actually any good 
because in the last 10 years I've had them I've never filed a claim... They 
could be HORRIBLE but as long as I don't actually need them I'll never know.
I've heard that Geico is terrible for denying claims but people go to them 
every day.

-Curt

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:36:23 -0400
From: "LarryT" 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

You wrote<>

Not necessarily, IMO.  If the policyholders are treated poorly they will go 
elsewhere, if enough are treated poorly - and in your example I assume *all* 
would - pretty soon there wouldn't be many customers and the company would 
not have many (any?) investors (stockholders) leaving the bondholders 
holding the bag.

If *any* company wants to be of value to their shareholders (who are the 
owners of the company) the company must be receptive to their customers. 
IMO , it doesn't matter if they are for profit or not.   Actually the case 
could be made that a non-profit might treat customers worse.

Capitalism *will* work, if the government do-gooders can stay out of it. 
The customer will drive the company toward excellence or they will go 
elsewhere.   Same with shareholders - people w
ho do their due diligence before buying stock will look at how customers are 
treated - because that's the only product the company can provide "service". 
If a company has poor rating when dealing with the customer it will perform 
poorly - and the stock will also.

Later -
LarryT

OilAnalysis Time?
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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Mitch Haley]

Alex Chamberlain wrote:

It's a puzzle to me why a free-market approach to insurance
has produced such a broken system.


You and I must have a very different definition of 'free market' if you think it 
describes the present situation in health insurance. We've even altered our tax 
code to meddle in that market.

Mitch.


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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Mitch Haley]

Meade: Take a look at your homeowner's policy. Does it cover you if you slip and 
fall, or does it only cover you from getting sued by somebody else who slips and 
falls?


I like HSA as a tax planning vehicle, and think that the only logical use for 
insurance is to cover expenses that you can't afford to pay yourself, so I favor 
high deductible insurance over 'pay for your periodic check-ups' insurance.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310]

Mao,

So you have a doctorate in statistics and access to the data to analyze
the pool of insured folks, balance the income vs. the potential outflow,
and so you're convinced the HMO's will go broke?  OK, then you can
become fabulously wealthy by taking a short position on all their
stocks, and when they all fail you'll be rich beyond your wildest
dreams.

Let us know when you have all your short positions in place.  Did you
short AIG using the same reasoning?

Max 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com
[mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mountain Man
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:25 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

RLE wrote:
> Since you have been preaching this sermon for MANY months now, how 
> about telling how you came to this conclusion. H?

The concept of insco is based in fraud.  Get plenty of people paying
premiums for miniscule events that rarely payout, payout a few, keep the
change.  Read the hedlines - medicare is bankrupt in 7 years - same
scheme.

The issue that the prez has taken on has to do with prices, not care.
The care facilities and personnel and equipment here are the best per
capita in the world, or close - I would suspect.  The issue is cost.
And, cost is driven by the ability to get payment - from a large pool
- insco.  Think AIG - yeah, they did good, eh?  Fraud in the headlines
- and you want someone to explain this to you?  Read it, think about it,
don't try to defend it - and the concept falls into your lap.  I mean,
if you rely on insco somehow - you defend it, and many persons defend
insco.  I have no reason to think they will skrew me if I have a large
claim, but the concept is just wrong.  There is not enough premium money
being gathered to cover the uneventual for each rate payer, pure and
simple.  Meanwhile, the insco execs run around the rich of the world -
read AIG, again.  etc.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310]

Mitch, I'm afraid you are wrong there.  I entered federal service two
years ago, and had choice of like 15 different plans, an overwhelming
number of options to compare and consider.  In the end, I asked several
folks who'd been there for a while which plans they like and why, and
made a decision.  Every year we have the option to switch to a different
plan, during a window provided.  So if the HMO denies claims or
otherwise abuses me, I will switch.

Now as a military member, we get one choice (Tri-care) and in this part
of the country it really stinks.  Lots of rules to follow, easy to get
crossed up and have to pay out of pocket for a specialist, difficult to
get approvals for some meds and some treatments and some specialists.
My fear is that if ObamaCare = one choice (the gummint plan) then we'll
see a very similar decline in the quality of healthcare.

I was recently mobilized for one year of active duty.  My federal
employer continued my health insurance for the entire mobilization (paid
their part AND my share - a very nice benefit) and I qualified for the
military health care.  My wife never even bothered trying to use the
military care.

In my opinion, the only health care reform this country needs is for the
military health care system, AND we need to address the massive cost of
Medicare and the looming bankruptcy of that program (~2017 is when that
one goes bust, I seem to recall).

I've also been un-employed and under-employed for a year, and had no
healthcare insurance, but I did have homeowner's insurance and auto
insurance, so I think that if I was injured at home and I know that if I
was injured in a car crash, my medical costs would have been covered.

My favorite solution is the HSA program, where-in you get high
deductible health insurance and pay for the first ~$5k in medical costs
out of pocket (with exception of annual check-up and OB/GYN stuff for
the ladies).  I think if this program were improved and made more
affordable and given more tax advantages, more employers would get on
board and offer it along with traditional HMO-type plans and more people
would switch over.  You'd have patients dealing directly with the doc
and no insurance paperwork for the first $5k/year, and so market forces
would reform the system from within.  Might also provide some incentive
for our overweight nation to make some effort at living more
healthfully.

Very respectfully,
/s/
LCDR Max Dillon
'87 300TD 314k miles
Charleston SC



-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com
[mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:42 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

LarryT wrote:
> You wrote< its shareholders, then (a distant third) to policyholders>>
> 
> Not necessarily, IMO.  If the policyholders are treated poorly they 
> will go elsewhere, if enough are treated poorly -

That's the whole beauty of the scam - the enduser doesn't get to pick,
or at best, gets to pick from two providers if he's employed by a state
or federal agency or Fortune 100 corporation.
Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Jim Cathey]

Capitalism *will* work, if the government do-gooders can stay out of 
it.


Capitalism works very well, provided that there are two
things:  1) competition.  Plenty of it.  Two-three major
players isn't really enough.  2) Reporting.  If nobody's
looking and reporting on the truth of how the competitors
stack up, then informed voting (with the feet) can't take
place.  Oh, and people have to care.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 5:36 PM, LarryT  wrote:
> You wrote< shareholders,
> then (a distant third) to policyholders>>
>

> If *any* company wants to be of value to their shareholders (who are the
> owners of the company) the company must be receptive to their customers. IMO
> , it doesn't matter if they are for profit or not.   Actually the case could
> be made that a non-profit might treat customers worse.
>
> Capitalism *will* work, if the government do-gooders can stay out of it. The
> customer will drive the company toward excellence or they will go elsewhere.

I'm a staunch defender of the free market, and perfectly happy to let
it decide who gets what good and services, and at what prices, most of
the time.  It's a puzzle to me why a free-market approach to insurance
has produced such a broken system.  It seems like insurance is one of
the few businesses, perhaps the only, where profit is made explicitly
by *not* providing the customer the service for which he has
contracted and paid.  As you say, that should in theory put the
company out of business in the long term as word gets around that they
don't keep their word.  But it doesn't seem to.

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Mountain Man]

RLE wrote:
> Since you have been preaching this sermon for MANY months now, how about
> telling how you came to this conclusion. H?

The concept of insco is based in fraud.  Get plenty of people paying
premiums for miniscule events that rarely payout, payout a few, keep
the change.  Read the hedlines - medicare is bankrupt in 7 years -
same scheme.

The issue that the prez has taken on has to do with prices, not care.
The care facilities and personnel and equipment here are the best per
capita in the world, or close - I would suspect.  The issue is cost.
And, cost is driven by the ability to get payment - from a large pool
- insco.  Think AIG - yeah, they did good, eh?  Fraud in the headlines
- and you want someone to explain this to you?  Read it, think about
it, don't try to defend it - and the concept falls into your lap.  I
mean, if you rely on insco somehow - you defend it, and many persons
defend insco.  I have no reason to think they will skrew me if I have
a large claim, but the concept is just wrong.  There is not enough
premium money being gathered to cover the uneventual for each rate
payer, pure and simple.  Meanwhile, the insco execs run around the
rich of the world - read AIG, again.  etc.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Curt Raymond]

It'd be kind of a collective situation which I think is what was originally 
intended. Big companies do it...

I wonder how much cash you'd need to get started. Couple million I suppose.

-Curt

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:52:16 -0700
From: Alex Chamberlain 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Allan Streib  wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:31 -0700, "Alex Chamberlain"  
> wrote:
>
>> I'm with Curt and Mao here. ?A for-profit insurance company is by
>> definition broken from the policyholder's point of view. ?Its first
>> responsibility is to its bondholders, its second to its shareholders,
>> then (a distant third) to policyholders. ?Profit comes from paying out
>> less in claims than comes in by premiums. ?Ipso facto, many claims
>> must be denied, but choosing which to deny on the claims' merits
>> requires significant overhead in the form of adjusters and support
>> personnel.
>
> And how will your non-profit insurance company identify the flood of
> fraudulent claims that will pour in with its "we pay all claims, no
> questions asked" mode of operation?
>

I don't imagine that a nonprofit insurance company could do without
adjusters entirely and pay all claims without argument---human nature
being what it is, that way leads pretty inevitably to the Tragedy of
the Commons.  But, as Curt says, if the money now earmarked for
shareholder profit were instead spent on evaluating claims (rather
than the current system where, as I said, there is a disincentive for
the company to evaluate claims fairly and an incentive to pay them
arbitrarily as long as they do not total more than premium income plus
overhead), the proposed nonprofit could operate in a way that was much
more fair and helpful to its policyholders---i.e., more valid claims
would get paid, and fewer invalid ones.

I'm thinking of car insurance here, where there are no nonprofits, as
far as I know.  As someone pointed out, there are lots of nonprofit
health insurance providers, but health insurance, of course, is a lot
more complicated.

Alex


  
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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Mitch Haley]

LarryT wrote:
You wrote>

Not necessarily, IMO.  If the policyholders are treated poorly they will 
go elsewhere, if enough are treated poorly - 


That's the whole beauty of the scam - the enduser doesn't get to pick, or at 
best, gets to pick from two providers if he's employed by a state or federal 
agency or Fortune 100 corporation.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[LarryT]

You wrote<shareholders,

then (a distant third) to policyholders>>

Not necessarily, IMO.  If the policyholders are treated poorly they will go 
elsewhere, if enough are treated poorly - and in your example I assume *all* 
would - pretty soon there wouldn't be many customers and the company would 
not have many (any?) investors (stockholders) leaving the bondholders 
holding the bag.


If *any* company wants to be of value to their shareholders (who are the 
owners of the company) the company must be receptive to their customers. 
IMO , it doesn't matter if they are for profit or not.   Actually the case 
could be made that a non-profit might treat customers worse.


Capitalism *will* work, if the government do-gooders can stay out of it. 
The customer will drive the company toward excellence or they will go 
elsewhere.   Same with shareholders - people w
ho do their due diligence before buying stock will look at how customers are 
treated - because that's the only product the company can provide "service". 
If a company has poor rating when dealing with the customer it will perform 
poorly - and the stock will also.


Later -
LarryT

OilAnalysis Time?
Looking for Weber Parts or Porsche Posters?
www.youroil.net



--
From: "Alex Chamberlain" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:31 AM
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam


Mountain Man said:

...Insurance is a racket, you know.? It is an organization that makes it
look like it is helping, but only skrews with anyone, and everyone.
They take, take, take premiums in the guise that someday something
*might* happen and then they run and hide when it does 
happen


...to which Roger said:

Since you have been preaching this sermon for MANY months now, how about
telling how you came to this conclusion. H?



...and Curt said:
Pretty obvious isn't it? Insurance companies should gladly pay out on 
every claim...


I'm with Curt and Mao here.  A for-profit insurance company is by
definition broken from the policyholder's point of view.  Its first
responsibility is to its bondholders, its second to its shareholders,
then (a distant third) to policyholders.  Profit comes from paying out
less in claims than comes in by premiums.  Ipso facto, many claims
must be denied, but choosing which to deny on the claims' merits
requires significant overhead in the form of adjusters and support
personnel.  Therefore the most efficient and most profitable way for
an insurance company to operate is to pay out claims on a simple basis
that does not require evaluating their merits, such as
first-come-first-served.  Effective for the shareholders, but
manifestly unfair for the policyholders.

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Allan Streib  wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:31 -0700, "Alex Chamberlain"  
> wrote:
>
>> I'm with Curt and Mao here.  A for-profit insurance company is by
>> definition broken from the policyholder's point of view.  Its first
>> responsibility is to its bondholders, its second to its shareholders,
>> then (a distant third) to policyholders.  Profit comes from paying out
>> less in claims than comes in by premiums.  Ipso facto, many claims
>> must be denied, but choosing which to deny on the claims' merits
>> requires significant overhead in the form of adjusters and support
>> personnel.
>
> And how will your non-profit insurance company identify the flood of
> fraudulent claims that will pour in with its "we pay all claims, no
> questions asked" mode of operation?
>

I don't imagine that a nonprofit insurance company could do without
adjusters entirely and pay all claims without argument---human nature
being what it is, that way leads pretty inevitably to the Tragedy of
the Commons.  But, as Curt says, if the money now earmarked for
shareholder profit were instead spent on evaluating claims (rather
than the current system where, as I said, there is a disincentive for
the company to evaluate claims fairly and an incentive to pay them
arbitrarily as long as they do not total more than premium income plus
overhead), the proposed nonprofit could operate in a way that was much
more fair and helpful to its policyholders---i.e., more valid claims
would get paid, and fewer invalid ones.

I'm thinking of car insurance here, where there are no nonprofits, as
far as I know.  As someone pointed out, there are lots of nonprofit
health insurance providers, but health insurance, of course, is a lot
more complicated.

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Curt Raymond]

Lowered administrative costs based on a simplified management structure and 
more importantly not having a ton of people whos whole job is to deny claims...

-Curt


Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:55:54 -0400
From: "Allan Streib" 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Message-ID: <1253627754.24172.1336050...@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Why would expenses be so much lower in a not-for-profit insurance company?



On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:48 -0700, "Curt Raymond"  wrote:
> Pretty obvious isn't it? Insurance companies should gladly pay out on
> every claim...
> 
> I've been thinking that an not-for-profit ins co could do pretty well as
> its expenses would be so much lower and there wouldn't be the drive to
> provide profit to the investors. The problem is where does the seed money
> to get started come from?
> 
> -Curt


  
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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Bill R]

Blue Cross/Blue Shield Florida is also non-profit.  No shareholders to
pacify.  $20M annual salary for the head.  It does sort of help to
understand 'non-profit' to mean 'after expenses'.
Bill R

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Michael LaFleur
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:40 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

Our major insurance company here, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, is a non-profit.

Mike LaFleur





From: Curt Raymond 
To: Diesel List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:48:04 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

Pretty obvious isn't it? Insurance companies should gladly pay out on every
claim...

I've been thinking that an not-for-profit ins co could do pretty well as its
expenses would be so much lower and there wouldn't be the drive to provide
profit to the investors. The problem is where does the seed money to get
started come from?

-Curt

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:41:48 EDT
From: relng...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

> ...Insurance is a racket, you know.? It is an organization that makes it
> look like it is helping, but only skrews with anyone, and everyone.
> They take, take, take premiums in the guise that someday something
> *might* happen and then they run and hide when it does happen
> 
Since you have been preaching this sermon for MANY months now, how about 
telling how you came to this conclusion. H?

RLE


  
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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Allan Streib]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:31 -0700, "Alex Chamberlain"  
wrote:

> I'm with Curt and Mao here.  A for-profit insurance company is by
> definition broken from the policyholder's point of view.  Its first
> responsibility is to its bondholders, its second to its shareholders,
> then (a distant third) to policyholders.  Profit comes from paying out
> less in claims than comes in by premiums.  Ipso facto, many claims
> must be denied, but choosing which to deny on the claims' merits
> requires significant overhead in the form of adjusters and support
> personnel.

And how will your non-profit insurance company identify the flood of
fraudulent claims that will pour in with its "we pay all claims, no
questions asked" mode of operation?


Allan

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Michael LaFleur]

Our major insurance company here, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, is a non-profit.

Mike LaFleur





From: Curt Raymond 
To: Diesel List 
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:48:04 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

Pretty obvious isn't it? Insurance companies should gladly pay out on every 
claim...

I've been thinking that an not-for-profit ins co could do pretty well as its 
expenses would be so much lower and there wouldn't be the drive to provide 
profit to the investors. The problem is where does the seed money to get 
started come from?

-Curt

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:41:48 EDT
From: relng...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

> ...Insurance is a racket, you know.? It is an organization that makes it
> look like it is helping, but only skrews with anyone, and everyone.
> They take, take, take premiums in the guise that someday something
> *might* happen and then they run and hide when it does happen
> 
Since you have been preaching this sermon for MANY months now, how about 
telling how you came to this conclusion. H?

RLE


  
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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Alex Chamberlain]

Mountain Man said:
>> ...Insurance is a racket, you know.? It is an organization that makes it
>> look like it is helping, but only skrews with anyone, and everyone.
>> They take, take, take premiums in the guise that someday something
>> *might* happen and then they run and hide when it does happen

...to which Roger said:
> Since you have been preaching this sermon for MANY months now, how about
> telling how you came to this conclusion. H?
>

...and Curt said:
> Pretty obvious isn't it? Insurance companies should gladly pay out on every 
> claim...

I'm with Curt and Mao here.  A for-profit insurance company is by
definition broken from the policyholder's point of view.  Its first
responsibility is to its bondholders, its second to its shareholders,
then (a distant third) to policyholders.  Profit comes from paying out
less in claims than comes in by premiums.  Ipso facto, many claims
must be denied, but choosing which to deny on the claims' merits
requires significant overhead in the form of adjusters and support
personnel.  Therefore the most efficient and most profitable way for
an insurance company to operate is to pay out claims on a simple basis
that does not require evaluating their merits, such as
first-come-first-served.  Effective for the shareholders, but
manifestly unfair for the policyholders.

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Allan Streib]

Why would expenses be so much lower in a not-for-profit insurance company?



On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:48 -0700, "Curt Raymond"  wrote:
> Pretty obvious isn't it? Insurance companies should gladly pay out on
> every claim...
> 
> I've been thinking that an not-for-profit ins co could do pretty well as
> its expenses would be so much lower and there wouldn't be the drive to
> provide profit to the investors. The problem is where does the seed money
> to get started come from?
> 
> -Curt
> 
> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:41:48 EDT
> From: relng...@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> > ...Insurance is a racket, you know.? It is an organization that makes it
> > look like it is helping, but only skrews with anyone, and everyone.
> > They take, take, take premiums in the guise that someday something
> > *might* happen and then they run and hide when it does happen
> > 
> Since you have been preaching this sermon for MANY months now, how about 
> telling how you came to this conclusion. H?
> 
> RLE
> 
> 
>   
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[Curt Raymond]

Pretty obvious isn't it? Insurance companies should gladly pay out on every 
claim...

I've been thinking that an not-for-profit ins co could do pretty well as its 
expenses would be so much lower and there wouldn't be the drive to provide 
profit to the investors. The problem is where does the seed money to get 
started come from?

-Curt

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:41:48 EDT
From: relng...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

> ...Insurance is a racket, you know.? It is an organization that makes it
> look like it is helping, but only skrews with anyone, and everyone.
> They take, take, take premiums in the guise that someday something
> *might* happen and then they run and hide when it does happen
> 
Since you have been preaching this sermon for MANY months now, how about 
telling how you came to this conclusion. H?

RLE


  
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Re: [MBZ] sing it again, Sam

[RELNGSON]

> ...Insurance is a racket, you know.  It is an organization that makes it
> look like it is helping, but only skrews with anyone, and everyone.
> They take, take, take premiums in the guise that someday something
> *might* happen and then they run and hide when it does happen
> 
Since you have been preaching this sermon for MANY months now, how about 
telling how you came to this conclusion. H?

RLE


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