Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Just as an aside, were you using a proper tap wrench when this happened? I've 
only broken one tap before and I was foolishly using an adjustable wrench 
instead of a tap wrench when it happened.
Can you thread your helicoils onto the bolt with it outside of the engine?
-Curt

  From: Curly McLain via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Curly McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 4:48 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare
   
>It was like that when I bought it, in fact I had been running it 
>without a belt shock at all for a while but I did not want to do 
>that for long.  I am really not sure how it got stripped out in the 
>first place, but it is just a hole and should have been a simple 
>matter to repair the threats but for some reason it turned into a 
>nightmare.


Breaking drills and taps is the reason.

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Kaleb,
I've used this exactly twice in the last 20 years.. it's worked [I got
lucky] both times. I make no claims it will work in your situation, but
pass it along.

Clean the broken tap with spray cleaner that doesn't leave a residue, like
brake cleaner, to remove residual oil.. clean the broken end that you now
have in your hand, Mix and apply JB Weld to the tap end you have in hand.
Put a nice thick coat, but don't go hog wild, you want to fill any spaces
at the crack point where it broke off.. THEN, position the broken shaft to
the broken tap resident in the engine and secure it by any means possible
to keep it from moving while the JB Weld sets up... Once secure, WALK AWAY
 let the J B Weld completely cure.

[I give it a day] .. Then... spray lube the threads down the tap hole so
you aren't pushing dry threads.. put a tap handle on the offending tap..
and GENTLY back it out.. If you get a 1/8 turn out and it feels like it
locks up... go back in and gently back with luck.. you will un lock the
threads of the tap and back it out..
Some back and forth, and you win.. maybe.

Grant...
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On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> You're not Kaleb, either. He's not a nuke plant operator.
>
> Dan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Feb 8, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Bob Rentfro via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > I hate seeing this thread on a 98 E 300, especially since I just put one
> of
> > my garage. Except I was smart and got a diesel.
> >
> > Bob R
> > On Feb 8, 2016 8:34 AM, "Curt Raymond via Mercedes" <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Or tap it out with a bunch, or grind it out with a small die grinder, or
> >> maybe get lucky and have it break beating on it with a small punch...
> >> Lots of options, none of them all that easy.
> >> Actually is it an aluminum casting? Check out AVE on youtube, he
> recently
> >> showed how to use alum to dissolve a steel bolt in an aluminum casting.
> >> -Curt
> >>
> >>  From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> >> To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> >> Cc: Meade Dillon <dillonm...@gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 2:29 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare
> >>
> >> Spot weld a bolt to the broken tap, then you can back it out?
> >>
> >> -
> >> Max
> >> Charleston SC
> >>
> >> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> No there must be a better answer than that
> >> ___
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> >>
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

You're not Kaleb, either. He's not a nuke plant operator.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 8, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Bob Rentfro via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I hate seeing this thread on a 98 E 300, especially since I just put one of
> my garage. Except I was smart and got a diesel.
> 
> Bob R
> On Feb 8, 2016 8:34 AM, "Curt Raymond via Mercedes" <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Or tap it out with a bunch, or grind it out with a small die grinder, or
>> maybe get lucky and have it break beating on it with a small punch...
>> Lots of options, none of them all that easy.
>> Actually is it an aluminum casting? Check out AVE on youtube, he recently
>> showed how to use alum to dissolve a steel bolt in an aluminum casting.
>> -Curt
>> 
>>  From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>> Cc: Meade Dillon <dillonm...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 2:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare
>> 
>> Spot weld a bolt to the broken tap, then you can back it out?
>> 
>> -
>> Max
>> Charleston SC
>> 
>> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> No there must be a better answer than that
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Bob Rentfro via Mercedes]

I know some things are best fixed with the checkbook.

Bob R
On Feb 8, 2016 8:48 AM, "Dan Penoff via Mercedes" <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
wrote:

> You're not Kaleb, either. He's not a nuke plant operator.
>
> Dan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Feb 8, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Bob Rentfro via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > I hate seeing this thread on a 98 E 300, especially since I just put one
> of
> > my garage. Except I was smart and got a diesel.
> >
> > Bob R
> > On Feb 8, 2016 8:34 AM, "Curt Raymond via Mercedes" <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Or tap it out with a bunch, or grind it out with a small die grinder, or
> >> maybe get lucky and have it break beating on it with a small punch...
> >> Lots of options, none of them all that easy.
> >> Actually is it an aluminum casting? Check out AVE on youtube, he
> recently
> >> showed how to use alum to dissolve a steel bolt in an aluminum casting.
> >> -Curt
> >>
> >>  From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> >> To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> >> Cc: Meade Dillon <dillonm...@gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 2:29 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare
> >>
> >> Spot weld a bolt to the broken tap, then you can back it out?
> >>
> >> -
> >> Max
> >> Charleston SC
> >>
> >> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> No there must be a better answer than that
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Or tap it out with a bunch, or grind it out with a small die grinder, or maybe 
get lucky and have it break beating on it with a small punch...
Lots of options, none of them all that easy.
Actually is it an aluminum casting? Check out AVE on youtube, he recently 
showed how to use alum to dissolve a steel bolt in an aluminum casting.
-Curt

  From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Meade Dillon <dillonm...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 2:29 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare
   
Spot weld a bolt to the broken tap, then you can back it out?

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> No there must be a better answer than that
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Bob Rentfro via Mercedes]

I hate seeing this thread on a 98 E 300, especially since I just put one of
my garage. Except I was smart and got a diesel.

Bob R
On Feb 8, 2016 8:34 AM, "Curt Raymond via Mercedes" <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
wrote:

> Or tap it out with a bunch, or grind it out with a small die grinder, or
> maybe get lucky and have it break beating on it with a small punch...
> Lots of options, none of them all that easy.
> Actually is it an aluminum casting? Check out AVE on youtube, he recently
> showed how to use alum to dissolve a steel bolt in an aluminum casting.
> -Curt
>
>   From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>  To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Cc: Meade Dillon <dillonm...@gmail.com>
>  Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 2:29 PM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare
>
> Spot weld a bolt to the broken tap, then you can back it out?
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > No there must be a better answer than that
> >
> >
> >
> ___
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I would think a great deal. That puts a pretty significant load on the tap, I 
would think.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 8, 2016, at 1:07 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Thats how I was taught too, I usually use 1/2 turn in, 1 turn back.
> You see a lot of guys on YouTube just cranking them down. I wonder how fast 
> they ruin taps and how often the break them.
> -Curt
> 
>  

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? That's how I was taught - one forward, 
two back. Oil up or clear it out if full of chips.

Dan tap technique 

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:38 PM, fmiser via Mercedes  wrote:

> When using a tap - or a die - a technique that can help avoid
> breaking them is to turn backwards often to break off the
> chips created by the cutting.  That can be as little cutting as:
> 
> cut for 1/8 turn forward - 1/4 turn back to remove chips - repeat
> 
> or as much cutting as:
> 
> cut for 2 or 3 turns - 1/4 turn back to remove chips - repeat.
> 
> Also, using a lubricate is a good idea.  A respectable
> hardware store should carry thread cutting oil.  Or mix lard
> 2:1 with kerosene or diesel for iron and steel.  I don't
> remember what's a good choice for aluminum...
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping

[Rich Thomas via Mercedes]

I have looked at these little milling machines, some of them say they 
will do tapping and have some sort of tapping speed or something.  It 
looks like they just go at it like a drill bit, though slower, and I've 
wondered how those things can not break taps off doing it that way.  
Anyone ever done tapping on a milling machine?


--R

On 2/8/16 2:29 PM, fmiser via Mercedes wrote:

fmiser wrote:

When using a tap - or a die - a technique that can help
avoid breaking them is to turn backwards often to break
off the chips created by the cutting.  That can be as
little cutting as:

cut for 1/8 turn forward - 1/4 turn back to remove chips
- repeat

or as much cutting as:

cut for 2 or 3 turns - 1/4 turn back to remove chips -
repeat.

Dan wrote:

Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? That's how I was
taught - one forward, two back. Oil up or clear it out if
full of chips.

Just because some of us know that doesn't mean everyone one
the list or anyone reading the archive will know.  This
seemed to be a good opportunity to mention the process.

I have no knowledge of how Kaleb was using the tap, and taps
will break even when used correctly.  But maybe a few words
here will save someone else the frustration Kaleb is dealing
with right now.

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping

[Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes]

I have done it on a lathe. The same would work fine on a mill, but I would
not use power. Either lathe or mill is good for alignment, using a
spring-loaded adapter to encourage the tap forward.

Also, I have read that gunsmiths in particular, might prefer to use carbon
steel taps instead of high speed steel. The point is that if they break off
they can be broken out by hitting with a hammer and punch since they tend to
be more brittle. I have not verified this myself. I've been careful (and
lucky!) not having broken off a tap as yet.

I have tried the alum solution to dissolve a screw. I was unsuccessful with
this as it was likely a stainless alloy which did not dissolve.

I think that any tapping fluid would work ok for aluminum (Al). I have read
that WD-40 is a good cutting fluid for Al, I just use my regular all-purpose
cutting fluids for cutting or tapping in Al. No problems or issues.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich
Thomas via Mercedes
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 1:23 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Rich Thomas
Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping

I have looked at these little milling machines, some of them say they 
will do tapping and have some sort of tapping speed or something.  It 
looks like they just go at it like a drill bit, though slower, and I've 
wondered how those things can not break taps off doing it that way.  
Anyone ever done tapping on a milling machine?

--R

On 2/8/16 2:29 PM, fmiser via Mercedes wrote:
>>> fmiser wrote:
>>>
>>> When using a tap - or a die - a technique that can help
>>> avoid breaking them is to turn backwards often to break
>>> off the chips created by the cutting.  That can be as
>>> little cutting as:
>>>
>>> cut for 1/8 turn forward - 1/4 turn back to remove chips
>>> - repeat
>>>
>>> or as much cutting as:
>>>
>>> cut for 2 or 3 turns - 1/4 turn back to remove chips -
>>> repeat.
>> Dan wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? That's how I was
>> taught - one forward, two back. Oil up or clear it out if
>> full of chips.
> Just because some of us know that doesn't mean everyone one
> the list or anyone reading the archive will know.  This
> seemed to be a good opportunity to mention the process.
>
> I have no knowledge of how Kaleb was using the tap, and taps
> will break even when used correctly.  But maybe a few words
> here will save someone else the frustration Kaleb is dealing
> with right now.
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> > > Kaleb wrote:
> > > 
> > > How the heck am I going to get this hardened tap out of
> > > the hole?

> > fmiser wrote:
> > 
> > There are tap extractors.  Arms stick down to fit in the
> > slots down the side of the tap.

> Kaleb wrote:
> 
> Yep got a set on the way from Amazon along with a new
> condenser and drier

When using a tap - or a die - a technique that can help avoid
breaking them is to turn backwards often to break off the
chips created by the cutting.  That can be as little cutting as:

 cut for 1/8 turn forward - 1/4 turn back to remove chips - repeat

or as much cutting as:

 cut for 2 or 3 turns - 1/4 turn back to remove chips - repeat.

Also, using a lubricate is a good idea.  A respectable
hardware store should carry thread cutting oil.  Or mix lard
2:1 with kerosene or diesel for iron and steel.  I don't
remember what's a good choice for aluminum...

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Thats how I was taught too, I usually use 1/2 turn in, 1 turn back.
You see a lot of guys on YouTube just cranking them down. I wonder how fast 
they ruin taps and how often the break them.
-Curt

  From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Dan Penoff <d...@penoff.com>
 Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 1:01 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare
   
Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? That's how I was taught - one forward, 
two back. Oil up or clear it out if full of chips.

Dan tap technique 

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:38 PM, fmiser via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> When using a tap - or a die - a technique that can help avoid
> breaking them is to turn backwards often to break off the
> chips created by the cutting.  That can be as little cutting as:
> 
> cut for 1/8 turn forward - 1/4 turn back to remove chips - repeat
> 
> or as much cutting as:
> 
> cut for 2 or 3 turns - 1/4 turn back to remove chips - repeat.
> 
> Also, using a lubricate is a good idea.  A respectable
> hardware store should carry thread cutting oil.  Or mix lard
> 2:1 with kerosene or diesel for iron and steel.  I don't
> remember what's a good choice for aluminum...
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> > fmiser wrote:
> >
> > When using a tap - or a die - a technique that can help
> > avoid breaking them is to turn backwards often to break
> > off the chips created by the cutting.  That can be as
> > little cutting as:
> > 
> > cut for 1/8 turn forward - 1/4 turn back to remove chips
> > - repeat
> > 
> > or as much cutting as:
> > 
> > cut for 2 or 3 turns - 1/4 turn back to remove chips -
> > repeat.

> Dan wrote:
> 
> Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? That's how I was
> taught - one forward, two back. Oil up or clear it out if
> full of chips.

Just because some of us know that doesn't mean everyone one
the list or anyone reading the archive will know.  This
seemed to be a good opportunity to mention the process.

I have no knowledge of how Kaleb was using the tap, and taps
will break even when used correctly.  But maybe a few words
here will save someone else the frustration Kaleb is dealing
with right now.

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping

[Rich Thomas via Mercedes]

The power of the Googs provides this pretty good thread  (get it, 
thread?) 
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/33790-Power-tapping-holes-how-is-it-done


--R

On 2/8/16 4:58 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

IIRC there are taps made for machine tapping, I forget what they're called, 
machine taps maybe. They look like a cross between a drill bit and a regular 
tap, maybe they're called twist taps...
-Curt

   From: Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
  To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Cc: Greg Fiorentino <greg.fiorent...@comcast.net>
  Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 4:48 PM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping

I have done it on a lathe. The same would work fine on a mill, but I would

not use power. Either lathe or mill is good for alignment, using a
spring-loaded adapter to encourage the tap forward.

Also, I have read that gunsmiths in particular, might prefer to use carbon
steel taps instead of high speed steel. The point is that if they break off
they can be broken out by hitting with a hammer and punch since they tend to
be more brittle. I have not verified this myself. I've been careful (and
lucky!) not having broken off a tap as yet.

I have tried the alum solution to dissolve a screw. I was unsuccessful with
this as it was likely a stainless alloy which did not dissolve.

I think that any tapping fluid would work ok for aluminum (Al). I have read
that WD-40 is a good cutting fluid for Al, I just use my regular all-purpose
cutting fluids for cutting or tapping in Al. No problems or issues.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich
Thomas via Mercedes
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 1:23 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Rich Thomas
Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping

I have looked at these little milling machines, some of them say they
will do tapping and have some sort of tapping speed or something.  It
looks like they just go at it like a drill bit, though slower, and I've
wondered how those things can not break taps off doing it that way.
Anyone ever done tapping on a milling machine?

--R

On 2/8/16 2:29 PM, fmiser via Mercedes wrote:

fmiser wrote:

When using a tap - or a die - a technique that can help
avoid breaking them is to turn backwards often to break
off the chips created by the cutting.  That can be as
little cutting as:

cut for 1/8 turn forward - 1/4 turn back to remove chips
- repeat

or as much cutting as:

cut for 2 or 3 turns - 1/4 turn back to remove chips -
repeat.

Dan wrote:

Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? That's how I was
taught - one forward, two back. Oil up or clear it out if
full of chips.

Just because some of us know that doesn't mean everyone one
the list or anyone reading the archive will know.  This
seemed to be a good opportunity to mention the process.

I have no knowledge of how Kaleb was using the tap, and taps
will break even when used correctly.  But maybe a few words
here will save someone else the frustration Kaleb is dealing
with right now.

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

IIRC there are taps made for machine tapping, I forget what they're called, 
machine taps maybe. They look like a cross between a drill bit and a regular 
tap, maybe they're called twist taps...
-Curt

  From: Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Greg Fiorentino <greg.fiorent...@comcast.net>
 Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 4:48 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping
   
I have done it on a lathe. The same would work fine on a mill, but I would
not use power. Either lathe or mill is good for alignment, using a
spring-loaded adapter to encourage the tap forward.

Also, I have read that gunsmiths in particular, might prefer to use carbon
steel taps instead of high speed steel. The point is that if they break off
they can be broken out by hitting with a hammer and punch since they tend to
be more brittle. I have not verified this myself. I've been careful (and
lucky!) not having broken off a tap as yet.

I have tried the alum solution to dissolve a screw. I was unsuccessful with
this as it was likely a stainless alloy which did not dissolve.

I think that any tapping fluid would work ok for aluminum (Al). I have read
that WD-40 is a good cutting fluid for Al, I just use my regular all-purpose
cutting fluids for cutting or tapping in Al. No problems or issues.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich
Thomas via Mercedes
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 1:23 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Rich Thomas
Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping

I have looked at these little milling machines, some of them say they 
will do tapping and have some sort of tapping speed or something.  It 
looks like they just go at it like a drill bit, though slower, and I've 
wondered how those things can not break taps off doing it that way.  
Anyone ever done tapping on a milling machine?

--R

On 2/8/16 2:29 PM, fmiser via Mercedes wrote:
>>> fmiser wrote:
>>>
>>> When using a tap - or a die - a technique that can help
>>> avoid breaking them is to turn backwards often to break
>>> off the chips created by the cutting.  That can be as
>>> little cutting as:
>>>
>>> cut for 1/8 turn forward - 1/4 turn back to remove chips
>>> - repeat
>>>
>>> or as much cutting as:
>>>
>>> cut for 2 or 3 turns - 1/4 turn back to remove chips -
>>> repeat.
>> Dan wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? That's how I was
>> taught - one forward, two back. Oil up or clear it out if
>> full of chips.
> Just because some of us know that doesn't mean everyone one
> the list or anyone reading the archive will know.  This
> seemed to be a good opportunity to mention the process.
>
> I have no knowledge of how Kaleb was using the tap, and taps
> will break even when used correctly.  But maybe a few words
> here will save someone else the frustration Kaleb is dealing
> with right now.
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>


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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

You're twisted...

  From: Rich Thomas via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Cc: Rich Thomas <richthomas79td...@constructivity.net>
 Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 5:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping
   
The power of the Googs provides this pretty good thread  (get it, 
thread?) 
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/33790-Power-tapping-holes-how-is-it-done

--R

On 2/8/16 4:58 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> IIRC there are taps made for machine tapping, I forget what they're called, 
> machine taps maybe. They look like a cross between a drill bit and a regular 
> tap, maybe they're called twist taps...
> -Curt
>
>        From: Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>  To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Cc: Greg Fiorentino <greg.fiorent...@comcast.net>
>  Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 4:48 PM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping
>    
> I have done it on a lathe. The same would work fine on a mill, but I would
> not use power. Either lathe or mill is good for alignment, using a
> spring-loaded adapter to encourage the tap forward.
>
> Also, I have read that gunsmiths in particular, might prefer to use carbon
> steel taps instead of high speed steel. The point is that if they break off
> they can be broken out by hitting with a hammer and punch since they tend to
> be more brittle. I have not verified this myself. I've been careful (and
> lucky!) not having broken off a tap as yet.
>
> I have tried the alum solution to dissolve a screw. I was unsuccessful with
> this as it was likely a stainless alloy which did not dissolve.
>
> I think that any tapping fluid would work ok for aluminum (Al). I have read
> that WD-40 is a good cutting fluid for Al, I just use my regular all-purpose
> cutting fluids for cutting or tapping in Al. No problems or issues.
>
> Greg
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich
> Thomas via Mercedes
> Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 1:23 PM
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Cc: Rich Thomas
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare -- tapping
>
> I have looked at these little milling machines, some of them say they
> will do tapping and have some sort of tapping speed or something.  It
> looks like they just go at it like a drill bit, though slower, and I've
> wondered how those things can not break taps off doing it that way.
> Anyone ever done tapping on a milling machine?
>
> --R
>
> On 2/8/16 2:29 PM, fmiser via Mercedes wrote:
>>>> fmiser wrote:
>>>>
>>>> When using a tap - or a die - a technique that can help
>>>> avoid breaking them is to turn backwards often to break
>>>> off the chips created by the cutting.  That can be as
>>>> little cutting as:
>>>>
>>>> cut for 1/8 turn forward - 1/4 turn back to remove chips
>>>> - repeat
>>>>
>>>> or as much cutting as:
>>>>
>>>> cut for 2 or 3 turns - 1/4 turn back to remove chips -
>>>> repeat.
>>> Dan wrote:
>>>
>>> Isn't that how you're supposed to do it? That's how I was
>>> taught - one forward, two back. Oil up or clear it out if
>>> full of chips.
>> Just because some of us know that doesn't mean everyone one
>> the list or anyone reading the archive will know.  This
>> seemed to be a good opportunity to mention the process.
>>
>> I have no knowledge of how Kaleb was using the tap, and taps
>> will break even when used correctly.  But maybe a few words
>> here will save someone else the frustration Kaleb is dealing
>> with right now.
>>
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
>>
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
>
>    
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> http://www.okiebenz.com
&g

Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

Spot weld a bolt to the broken tap, then you can back it out?

-
Max
Charleston SC


I'd try welding a nut to it first.

How did you manage to screw up the threads for that bolt in the first 
place?  (or did ya buy it that way?)  That is one problem I've never 
had.  (yet)


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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

I pulled my 98 e300 in the shop yesterday for 
what was supposed to be a simple belt shock 
replacment. I knew the hole was stripped out so 
I already had the proper size helicoil on hand. 
I drilled out the hole, tapped it and inserted 
the helicoil. Put it all back together and after 
running a few minutes the damn shock popped of 
the rubber mounting. This was a stabilus from 
autohaus az but not the dealer part which j 
guess is supposed to be better even though it is 
made by stabilus. So I took the bolt back out 
and the helicoil came out with the bolt. So I 
drilled it again, tapped and put new coil in. 
For some reason bolt was somewhat hard to turn 
then snapped off all the sudden flush with the 
head. Great. So I pull the radiator. Spend all 
morning drilling on the bolt. At one point broke 
off a drill bit in the hole but managed to get 
it out. Finally get it drilled out enough to 
then drill the final hole size for the helicoil 
tap. Do that. Install another coil and for some 
reason even though the hole was drilled and 
tapped and the coil is the right size the bolt 
will not thread in, it's like the hole is just 
slightly too small. So I pull the coil out, 
drilled again, tapped again, ran it down and all 
the sudden the tap breaks! When it does the only 
thing I can figure is the other price shot off 
the wrench and the punctured the condenser, I 
start rapidly losing the entire ac charge. So at 
this point the car is screwed. Now needs a new 
condenser also. How the heck am I going to get 
this hardened tap out of the hole? There is 
another slightly smaller hole right next to the 
shock hole, I wonder if I can just bolt it to 
that hole? I am concerned with it rattling 
though since the bolt is slightly smaller. This 
is a nightmare. There is nothing further I can 
do with this car at the moment until I figure 
out how to extract this tap and get a new 
condenser here. I guess I should now start on 
the glow plug project for my 97 but I suspect 
it's got dorm fuel leaks that need to be 
replaced while its apart and I don't have the 
parts for it.


Attachment converted: MacintoshHD:image1 10.JPG (JPEG/«IC») (01C445C5)



Wow!  that is bad.

I have a 240D I'd part with for a ridiculously high offer!

Maybe you should drive that nice 124 300D.

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

It was like that when I bought it, in fact I had been running it 
without a belt shock at all for a while but I did not want to do 
that for long.  I am really not sure how it got stripped out in the 
first place, but it is just a hole and should have been a simple 
matter to repair the threats but for some reason it turned into a 
nightmare.



Breaking drills and taps is the reason.

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

I need to get a welder to do that.

On 2/7/2016 1:29 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

Spot weld a bolt to the broken tap, then you can back it out?

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


No there must be a better answer than that




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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

It was like that when I bought it, in fact I had been running it without 
a belt shock at all for a while but I did not want to do that for long.  
I am really not sure how it got stripped out in the first place, but it 
is just a hole and should have been a simple matter to repair the 
threats but for some reason it turned into a nightmare.


On 2/7/2016 2:03 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes wrote:

Spot weld a bolt to the broken tap, then you can back it out?

-
Max
Charleston SC


I'd try welding a nut to it first.

How did you manage to screw up the threads for that bolt in the first 
place?  (or did ya buy it that way?)  That is one problem I've never 
had.  (yet)


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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Perfect excuse to get a welder and learn how to use it!

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Well as it turns out they do have tap extractors which are basically
> fingers of hardened steel that fit into the flutes of the tap, then you
> slide down the chuck on the tool to sort of lock it then back it out.  They
> are not cheap though.  If all else fails I am probably going to try using
> the hole next to it that all 603/606s seem to have.
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

It was exactly what happened that I was so careful to avoiding 
happening!   Anyway I will drive the 140 diesel for a few days until I 
can figure out the next thing to try.  I still think I might try just 
using that unused adjoining hole in the head.


On 2/7/2016 1:58 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes wrote:
I pulled my 98 e300 in the shop yesterday for what was supposed to be 
a simple belt shock replacment. I knew the hole was stripped out so I 
already had the proper size helicoil on hand. I drilled out the hole, 
tapped it and inserted the helicoil. Put it all back together and 
after running a few minutes the damn shock popped of the rubber 
mounting. This was a stabilus from autohaus az but not the dealer 
part which j guess is supposed to be better even though it is made by 
stabilus. So I took the bolt back out and the helicoil came out with 
the bolt. So I drilled it again, tapped and put new coil in. For some 
reason bolt was somewhat hard to turn then snapped off all the sudden 
flush with the head. Great. So I pull the radiator. Spend all morning 
drilling on the bolt. At one point broke off a drill bit in the hole 
but managed to get it out. Finally get it drilled out enough to then 
drill the final hole size for the helicoil tap. Do that. Install 
another coil and for some reason even though the hole was drilled and 
tapped and the coil is the right size the bolt will not thread in, 
it's like the hole is just slightly too small. So I pull the coil 
out, drilled again, tapped again, ran it down and all the sudden the 
tap breaks! When it does the only thing I can figure is the other 
price shot off the wrench and the punctured the condenser, I start 
rapidly losing the entire ac charge. So at this point the car is 
screwed. Now needs a new condenser also. How the heck am I going to 
get this hardened tap out of the hole? There is another slightly 
smaller hole right next to the shock hole, I wonder if I can just 
bolt it to that hole? I am concerned with it rattling though since 
the bolt is slightly smaller. This is a nightmare. There is nothing 
further I can do with this car at the moment until I figure out how 
to extract this tap and get a new condenser here. I guess I should 
now start on the glow plug project for my 97 but I suspect it's got 
dorm fuel leaks that need to be replaced while its apart and I don't 
have the parts for it.


Attachment converted: MacintoshHD:image1 10.JPG (JPEG/«IC») (01C445C5)



Wow!  that is bad.

I have a 240D I'd part with for a ridiculously high offer!

Maybe you should drive that nice 124 300D.

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

I need to get a welder to do that.

On 2/7/2016 1:29 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

Spot weld a bolt to the broken tap, then you can back it out?

-
Max
Charleston SC


'S'cheaper than a lift.

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Well as it turns out they do have tap extractors which are basically 
fingers of hardened steel that fit into the flutes of the tap, then you 
slide down the chuck on the tool to sort of lock it then back it out.  
They are not cheap though.  If all else fails I am probably going to try 
using the hole next to it that all 603/606s seem to have.


On 2/7/2016 3:48 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes wrote:
It was like that when I bought it, in fact I had been running it 
without a belt shock at all for a while but I did not want to do that 
for long.  I am really not sure how it got stripped out in the first 
place, but it is just a hole and should have been a simple matter to 
repair the threats but for some reason it turned into a nightmare.



Breaking drills and taps is the reason.

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Spot weld a bolt to the broken tap, then you can back it out?

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> No there must be a better answer than that
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

I see your problem there.  Ugly.  Time to pull the head for a machine shop
to fix this?

-
Max
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

No there must be a better answer than that

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 7, 2016, at 1:07 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I see your problem there.  Ugly.  Time to pull the head for a machine shop
> to fix this?
> 
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
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> 

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Look at the photo in the original post - I don't see how he would weld
anything to the recessed broken tap without doing even more damage to the
head.

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 4:28 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Perfect excuse to get a welder and learn how to use it!
>
>
>


-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> Kaleb wrote:
> 
> How the heck am I going to get this hardened tap out of the hole?

There are tap extractors.  Arms stick down to fit in the
slots down the side of the tap.

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

Nice solution, but kleb can buy another car for less money.


Herr MMM Sez: 
http://edmtechcenter.com/index.php/products/hole-drilling/portable-edm-tap-remover


I'm just sayin'.



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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes]

Fine.  This cheap enough for ya?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRPmSgfIJqY

:D

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Nice solution, but kleb can buy another car for less money.
>
>
> Herr MMM Sez:
>> http://edmtechcenter.com/index.php/products/hole-drilling/portable-edm-tap-remover
>>
>> I'm just sayin'.
>>
>>
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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

Fine.  This cheap enough for ya?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRPmSgfIJqY

:D


I can see Rich or Jim doing that in an hour or two.  K'leb?

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Yep got a set on the way from Amazon along with a new condenser and drier

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 7, 2016, at 7:03 PM, fmiser via Mercedes  wrote:

>> Kaleb wrote:
>> 
>> How the heck am I going to get this hardened tap out of the hole?
> 
> There are tap extractors.  Arms stick down to fit in the
> slots down the side of the tap.
> 
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> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
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> 

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Re: [MBZ] From bad to worse to nightmare

[M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes]

http://edmtechcenter.com/index.php/products/hole-drilling/portable-edm-tap-remover

I'm just sayin'.

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 8:18 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Yep got a set on the way from Amazon along with a new condenser and drier
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 7, 2016, at 7:03 PM, fmiser via Mercedes 
> wrote:
>
> >> Kaleb wrote:
> >>
> >> How the heck am I going to get this hardened tap out of the hole?
> >
> > There are tap extractors.  Arms stick down to fit in the
> > slots down the side of the tap.
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
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