Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
I'm taking it ('05 e320) to my indy Friday to see what needs to be done.
When I called him and I described the symptoms as those that would lead to
axle replacement in a W123, he echoed many of the things y'all said knowing
this is a W211. We will see what he finds out.
Bob R
On Feb 24, 2015 8:57 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
Good point. People, please include the YEAR and MODEL of your car, and if
you're talking about the weather indicate WHERE you are.
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
Curly wrote:
Since this car is post-1986...
Uh oh. My post was for a S or W123.
Bob R didn't mention the car. Looks like maybe I jumped to the
wrong conclusion.
Yeah, he did somewhere. 05 E320 i think. 211 maybe?
That's why I think it will need the triple square socket rather than a
clip inside the Diff.
I forgot to mention, it is good form to put neverseeze on the 6 triple
square capscrews if you think you might keep the car more than a couple
years. Especially if it travels well salted roads.
___
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Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
Curly wrote: Since this car is post-1986... Uh oh. My post was for a S or W123. Bob R didn't mention the car. Looks like maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Yeah, he did somewhere. 05 E320 i think. 211 maybe? That's why I think it will need the triple square socket rather than a clip inside the Diff. I forgot to mention, it is good form to put neverseeze on the 6 triple square capscrews if you think you might keep the car more than a couple years. Especially if it travels well salted roads. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
Curly wrote: Since this car is post-1986... Uh oh. My post was for a S or W123. Bob R didn't mention the car. Looks like maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
Less than an hour to do all that?? How would you like a free trip to D.C.? On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:00 PM, fmiser via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Bob wrote: So how difficult of a job is that? I reckon you gotta have a lift. No. It's not a bad job. Last time I replaced an axle shaft (on a wagon) it took me less than an hour from putting the jack under the car to the car back on the ground. I've done it a few (too many) times. And I had just done it (the replacement axle shaft immediately began leaking) so all the bolts were clean and greased. Here's my procedure * Jack up the car enough to get under to drain the differential oil. It's a Good Idea (TM) to make sure the fill plug can be opened before you drain. The higher the back of the car is jacked up, the less oil will drain out, so I only jack up the car enough to get to the fill and drain plugs. * While the oil is draining: - take off the wheel(s) - take off the brake caliper. Yes, it really does need to come off. I have tried many tricks to avoid it and always had to take it off. Don't let the caliper hang by the hose, and try not to twist/stress the hose more than necessary. - remove the bolt that keeps the axle shaft in the wheel hub and push on the axle shaft to make sure it's loose in the hub. I have never used a tool like the manual shows. Occasionally I have had to tap the shaft out, but it's never been more than just a bit stiff. * Once the oil is fully drained, jack up the back of the car to working height. I like to have the lower shock mount about 10-12 inches (25-30 cm) off the floor. I get it this high just to make it easier for me to work under there - none of the parts install/removal process need the car that high. * Put a jack under the front of the differential (after this called the differential jack) and remove the four bolts that hold the differential mount to the frame. * Remove the differential back cover. Lower the differential a bit with the differential jack will make getting to the top bolts much easier. This part is especially tricky on a wagon because the fuel tank and the suspension control valve conspire to get in the way. Lowering the differential changes impossible to merely challenging. The shape of the lip on the differential housing means little or no oil will run out when the differential cover is removed. * Pull the retainer clip from the axle shaft. I have a piece of steel wire with the end bent about 95 degrees. The bent end fits into the hole in the retainer clip. I grip the other end of the wire with vise grips and pull to remove the retainer clip. * With the differential jack, jack the differential up as high as it will go. This should mean it runs into the car body and is just a bit higher than it's normal position. * Pull/push the axle shaft out of the wheel hub, slide it past the hub toward the back of the car, and once that end is free, pull the other end of the axle shaft out of the differential. Reassembly is pretty much the reverse. * First, clean the splines in the wheel hub and if necessary, on the replacement axle shaft. I lightly grease the axle shaft splines to retard corrosion and make it all slide together more easily. * Put the differential end of the axle shaft into the differential. * Put the wheel end of the axle shaft into the wheel hub. * With the differential jack lower the differential. * Put the axle shaft retainer clip on in the differential. Put the wheel hub retainer bolt in and snug it. * Put the differential cover on and tighten the bolts to spec. * Using the differential jack, lift the differential so the differential mount bolts can be put back in. Tighten to spec. * Tighten the axle shaft wheel hub bolt to spec. * Put the brake caliper back on. * Put the wheel on. * Put Mobil 1 differential fluid in the differential. * Remove the differential jack. * Lower the car to the ground. Things not specifically mentioned, but that always apply are: clean mating surfaces, clean bolt threads, drink beer, look for worn/missing/damaged other parts nearby, etc. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 11:00:40 -0600 fmiser via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Bob wrote: So how difficult of a job is that? I reckon you gotta have a lift. Here's my procedure * Jack up the car enough to get under to drain the differential oil. This, of course, is applicable to W123s and not to the newer car about which Bob was asking. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
Bob wrote: So how difficult of a job is that? I reckon you gotta have a lift. No. It's not a bad job. Last time I replaced an axle shaft (on a wagon) it took me less than an hour from putting the jack under the car to the car back on the ground. I've done it a few (too many) times. And I had just done it (the replacement axle shaft immediately began leaking) so all the bolts were clean and greased. Here's my procedure * Jack up the car enough to get under to drain the differential oil. It's a Good Idea (TM) to make sure the fill plug can be opened before you drain. The higher the back of the car is jacked up, the less oil will drain out, so I only jack up the car enough to get to the fill and drain plugs. * While the oil is draining: - take off the wheel(s) - take off the brake caliper. Yes, it really does need to come off. I have tried many tricks to avoid it and always had to take it off. Don't let the caliper hang by the hose, and try not to twist/stress the hose more than necessary. - remove the bolt that keeps the axle shaft in the wheel hub and push on the axle shaft to make sure it's loose in the hub. I have never used a tool like the manual shows. Occasionally I have had to tap the shaft out, but it's never been more than just a bit stiff. * Once the oil is fully drained, jack up the back of the car to working height. I like to have the lower shock mount about 10-12 inches (25-30 cm) off the floor. I get it this high just to make it easier for me to work under there - none of the parts install/removal process need the car that high. * Put a jack under the front of the differential (after this called the differential jack) and remove the four bolts that hold the differential mount to the frame. * Remove the differential back cover. Lower the differential a bit with the differential jack will make getting to the top bolts much easier. This part is especially tricky on a wagon because the fuel tank and the suspension control valve conspire to get in the way. Lowering the differential changes impossible to merely challenging. The shape of the lip on the differential housing means little or no oil will run out when the differential cover is removed. * Pull the retainer clip from the axle shaft. I have a piece of steel wire with the end bent about 95 degrees. The bent end fits into the hole in the retainer clip. I grip the other end of the wire with vise grips and pull to remove the retainer clip. * With the differential jack, jack the differential up as high as it will go. This should mean it runs into the car body and is just a bit higher than it's normal position. * Pull/push the axle shaft out of the wheel hub, slide it past the hub toward the back of the car, and once that end is free, pull the other end of the axle shaft out of the differential. Reassembly is pretty much the reverse. * First, clean the splines in the wheel hub and if necessary, on the replacement axle shaft. I lightly grease the axle shaft splines to retard corrosion and make it all slide together more easily. * Put the differential end of the axle shaft into the differential. * Put the wheel end of the axle shaft into the wheel hub. * With the differential jack lower the differential. * Put the axle shaft retainer clip on in the differential. Put the wheel hub retainer bolt in and snug it. * Put the differential cover on and tighten the bolts to spec. * Using the differential jack, lift the differential so the differential mount bolts can be put back in. Tighten to spec. * Tighten the axle shaft wheel hub bolt to spec. * Put the brake caliper back on. * Put the wheel on. * Put Mobil 1 differential fluid in the differential. * Remove the differential jack. * Lower the car to the ground. Things not specifically mentioned, but that always apply are: clean mating surfaces, clean bolt threads, drink beer, look for worn/missing/damaged other parts nearby, etc. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
Good point. People, please include the YEAR and MODEL of your car, and if you're talking about the weather indicate WHERE you are. On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Curly wrote: Since this car is post-1986... Uh oh. My post was for a S or W123. Bob R didn't mention the car. Looks like maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Yeah, he did somewhere. 05 E320 i think. 211 maybe? That's why I think it will need the triple square socket rather than a clip inside the Diff. I forgot to mention, it is good form to put neverseeze on the 6 triple square capscrews if you think you might keep the car more than a couple years. Especially if it travels well salted roads. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
yep --R On 2/23/15 3:36 PM, Craig via Mercedes wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:03:02 -0700 Bob Rentfro via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: No this wasn't meant for Banned. When I turn to the right while accelerating, I hear a clicking in the rear end. When I turn to the right and I am NOT accelerating, I do not hear that clunking. What is going on? Sounds like you have a rear-axle half-shaft going bad. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
So how difficult of a job is that? I reckon you gotta have a lift. Bob R On Feb 23, 2015 2:01 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: yep --R On 2/23/15 3:36 PM, Craig via Mercedes wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:03:02 -0700 Bob Rentfro via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: No this wasn't meant for Banned. When I turn to the right while accelerating, I hear a clicking in the rear end. When I turn to the right and I am NOT accelerating, I do not hear that clunking. What is going on? Sounds like you have a rear-axle half-shaft going bad. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:07:26 -0700 Bob Rentfro via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: So how difficult of a job is that? I reckon you gotta have a lift. No, you do not, though it would be much easier on a lift. BTW, what vehicle are you asking about? I changed the half-shafts on our W123 240D/3.0 when we were in Austin, TX, in our garage. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
My 05 e320. crawling underneath the car up on jackstands has lost its allure. This may be something I fix with my checkbook. Bob R On Feb 23, 2015 2:13 PM, Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:07:26 -0700 Bob Rentfro via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: So how difficult of a job is that? I reckon you gotta have a lift. No, you do not, though it would be much easier on a lift. BTW, what vehicle are you asking about? I changed the half-shafts on our W123 240D/3.0 when we were in Austin, TX, in our garage. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
Put the back up on stands, loosen the diff from its support bracket and let it down a bit (I think with a jack?) which frees up the axles to slide out/in. You need to take off the diff cover to get at some retainer rings in there (quite fiddly, I remember that part!), so make sure you can get the filler plug off first so you can fill it back up after. It is actually not too hard, just fiddly. There are seals too you got to be careful of. The first one I did took a coupla hours then the other side was a lot faster. I vaguely recall the brake rotors have to come off to get the axle out of the axle/wheel carrier/bearing (it was quite a while ago I did so the details are a bit vague). This was on the 123 TD, not sure what your car is but it is probably a similar process if yours is different. There is a procedure in the manual that is fairly straightforward. Not too hard, but you have to get under the car and it can be a bit tight to do it while on your back lifting stuff around and reaching into the diff. Be a good opportunity to refresh the diff lube too. --R On 2/23/15 4:07 PM, Bob Rentfro wrote: So how difficult of a job is that? I reckon you gotta have a lift. Bob R On Feb 23, 2015 2:01 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: yep --R On 2/23/15 3:36 PM, Craig via Mercedes wrote: On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:03:02 -0700 Bob Rentfro via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: No this wasn't meant for Banned. When I turn to the right while accelerating, I hear a clicking in the rear end. When I turn to the right and I am NOT accelerating, I do not hear that clunking. What is going on? Sounds like you have a rear-axle half-shaft going bad. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:03:02 -0700 Bob Rentfro via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: No this wasn't meant for Banned. When I turn to the right while accelerating, I hear a clicking in the rear end. When I turn to the right and I am NOT accelerating, I do not hear that clunking. What is going on? Sounds like you have a rear-axle half-shaft going bad. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
I was unable to get a triple square female socket some years ago when I was going to replace the diff on my 190D. Fred ended up giving me what I think was a head bolt that had the correct piece, I'd intended to weld it into a socket but never got around to it, ended up replacing the car since the tinworm was already pretty severe into it. IIRC all 201 and later cars have the externally accessible bolts. -Curt From: Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2015 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear Put the back up on stands, loosen the diff from its support bracket and let it down a bit (I think with a jack?) which frees up the axles to slide out/in. You need to take off the diff cover to get at some retainer rings in there (quite fiddly, I remember that part!), so make sure you can get the filler plug off first so you can fill it back up after. It is actually not too hard, just fiddly. There are seals too you got to be careful of. Since this car is post-1986, I am pretty sure they don't use the retainer inside the diff. There will be 6 big triple square allen type capscrews at the DIff end. No need to drop the diff. One bolt at the outer end of the axle. Best to order the triple square socket online, as it will probably NOT be at FLAPS, but snappy may have it. Also remember the list experience that replacement new/rebuilt axles are no good. So finding a good used one at car-part.com is a good route. I've had good luck with used ones except for two that some from someone Kaleb sent me to in OK. You have tri-star in your back yard. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
Put the back up on stands, loosen the diff from its support bracket and let it down a bit (I think with a jack?) which frees up the axles to slide out/in. You need to take off the diff cover to get at some retainer rings in there (quite fiddly, I remember that part!), so make sure you can get the filler plug off first so you can fill it back up after. It is actually not too hard, just fiddly. There are seals too you got to be careful of. Since this car is post-1986, I am pretty sure they don't use the retainer inside the diff. There will be 6 big triple square allen type capscrews at the DIff end. No need to drop the diff. One bolt at the outer end of the axle. Best to order the triple square socket online, as it will probably NOT be at FLAPS, but snappy may have it. Also remember the list experience that replacement new/rebuilt axles are no good. So finding a good used one at car-part.com is a good route. I've had good luck with used ones except for two that some from someone Kaleb sent me to in OK. You have tri-star in your back yard. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
W123 or W124? W124 the axles bolt to a cup on the side of the diff, you don't have to open it up. Hexhead bolts, though. Not a bad job except that the exhaust has to be dropped on the driver's side to get the half shaft out. Just changed one on my brother's 300E a couple weeks ago. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
The outer joint on a half shaft is bad. Replace with a good used one or new -- new is expensive. rebuilt is usually junk. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Klunking in the Rear
I would guess left side axle, which is loaded when you turn right. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 On February 23, 2015 6:57:21 PM EST, Peter Frederick via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: The outer joint on a half shaft is bad. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
