Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
White racism is never having to say you're sorry. --David Shove Roseville On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The lack of empathy on this list for the family who attended Market Bar-B-Que, and the urge to rationalize and otherwise excuse the behavior of the people who served them, is appalling. These people are not lodging their complaint anonymously; they signed their name to their post. They obviously would not be contemplating legal action if other patrons hadn't unilaterally come forward to defend them, going so far and to provide their names for future testimony. It wasn't a single waitress who disrespected them; the next person up on the hierarchical chain likewise treated these paying customers in a manner calculated to ensure they wouldn't return. Does anyone doubt this happened? On what basis? People on this list must think that the Whites Only signs and other manifestations of Jim Crow are ancient history. They aren't. They are a fundamental part of that grandmother's personal experience. To suggest that this woman suck it up and extend herself further by getting in touch with the owners is naive at best--racial ignorance is a harsher, but no less accurate description. How have African-Americans in this country historically gotten satisfaction for their grief and insult; by trying to reason with executives further up the corporate ladder, or by threatening or filing a lawsuit and/or organizing a boycott? That's what racist establishments, whether the racism is widespread, happenstance, or otherwise, understand and react to. If the manager had caught the waitress pocketing the $65 bill, she would be fired on the spot, and I don't imagine there would be many on the list arguing that she just needed the money this one day and should be excused for her behavior. If the people on this list don't realize that black citizens routinely try to ignore or rationalize away the subtle and not-so-subtle ways they are treated with fear, suspicion and dislike by the white community, especially right here in passive-aggressive Minneapolis, then it's time to get a clue. When your mother is crying, your kids are scared, and a waitress, a restaurant manager and a police officer all don't want to own up to the fact that you were mistreated, despite the consensual opinion of objective observers, further patience is probably not a virtue. Finally, those who profess to want to know the whole story before drawing any conclusions should hope for a lawsuit. Otherwise your stance is just a convenient way of ignoring what happened, while congratulating yourselves on your fair-mindedness. Britt Robson Lyndale TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
Britt says: Finally, those who profess to want to know the whole story before drawing any conclusions should hope for a lawsuit. Peter says: This goes for our city as well as Market Bar-B-Que. Now that our current Mayor and City Council gutted the Civilian Review Authority, directing citizens with grievances to the Minneapolis Civil Rights Department, which, for all practical purposes, is adding insult to injury considering how mismanaged and underfunded that bureaucracy is, lawsuits are the only recourse discriminated populations have available when they are mistreated by the Minneapolis Police. As we've seen recently, City Hall will respond to complaints of discrimination or brutality only if the plaintiff has a relative working there. Market Bar-B-Que merely mimics the mentality of City Hall. And people on this list wondered why I thought City Council Member Gary Schiff was a hypocrite for displaying a Good-bye Strom Thurmond sign at the Pride Parade. Again, it's rather easy for any of us to bash a hundred year old dead Senator from the South, but confronting racists among our own ranks takes integrity and courage, qualities lacking in our local politicians. Being a white racist in Minnesota means never having to say you're sorry because you can always call people in the South racist. Peter SchmitzCARAG TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
Peter writes: Being a white racist in Minnesota means never having to say you're sorry because you can always call people in the South racist. Peter SchmitzCARAG I could just as glibly say being a guilt-ridden white person in Minnesota means never having to prove your case. Both my statement (intentionally) and the one above are over-the-top, stereotypic and at some point, useless. Britt's point is perfectly defensible in sort of a civil standard (preponderance of evidence). Who out there doesn't believe racial discrimination happens daily - but often on a sub-lawsuit basis. Given society's inherent racism, I believe there is a likelihood that what this family alleges happened - but that is informed speculation. Others argue a criminal standard (innocent until proven guilty). This, too, makes great sense. Were any of us accused of doing what the Market did (put yourself in an employee's place), we'd damn sure want it proven that we'd done what the family alleges - and that it was racially motivated, not a bad day or a bad question from the cops. I think the only statement that's out-of-bounds is that it COULDN'T have happened because of race - it's impossible to rule out, given the facts as we know them. I think each side's outrage stems from understandable societal concern: those who believe racism is denied too often in this society, and those who believe proof is necessary for serious accusations. We can tar and feather each other all day (itself a racist punishment), but I think there's less to demonize in this discussion than the rhetoric might indicate. Can both sides agree we need more information? Britt and I are in the media. ... maybe it's a race? David Brauer King Field TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
David Shove wrote (and Peter Schmitz echoed): White racism is never having to say you're sorry. --David Shove Roseville On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The lack of empathy on this list for the family who attended Market Bar-B-Que, and the urge to rationalize and otherwise excuse the behavior of the people who served them, is appalling. Basically you (above writers and those expressing similar opinions) all are tarring me with the label white racist, and that deeply offends me. When I get offended, I lose any interest in helping out the people who heaped that abuse on me. It's a normal human reaction. Just keep denigrating the people who are not racists and who are in favor of your cause, and pretty soon you won't have any support at all. A couple of days ago, if it had been eventually been demonstrated that Market BBQ is racist, I would have supported a boycott. Now, I have no interest. Knee-jerk playing of the race card and unjustified white guilt stinks just as much as racism against blacks. Chris Johnson Fulton TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
Peter writes: Being a white racist in Minnesota means never having to say you're sorry because you can always call people in the South racist. David responds:I could just as glibly say being a guilt-ridden white person in Minnesota means never having to prove your case. Both my statement (intentionally) and the one above are over-the-top, stereotypic and at some point, useless. Britt's point is perfectly defensible in sort of a civil standard (preponderance of evidence). Who out there doesn't believe racial discrimination happens daily - but often on a sub-lawsuit basis. Given society's inherent racism, I believe there is a likelihood that what this family alleges happened - but that is informed speculation. Others argue a criminal standard (innocent until proven guilty). This, too, makes great sense. Were any of us accused of doing what the Market did (put yourself in an employee's place), we'd damn sure want it proven that we'd done what the family alleges - and that it was racially motivated, not a baday or a bad question from the cops. I think the only statement that's out-of-bounds is that it COULDN'T havehappened because of race it's impossible to rule out, given the facts aswe know them. I think each side's outrage stems from understandable societal concern: those who believe racism is denied too often in this society, and those who believe proof is necessary for serious accusations. We can tar and feather each other all day (itself a racist punishment), but I think there's less to demonize in this discussion than the rhetoric might indicate. Can both sides agree we need more information? Britt and I are in the media maybe it's a race? Peter writes: David, I stand by my statement quoted in your post, which anyone can disregard as over-the-top and useless when they ignore the context in which it was written. First of all your points regarding informed speculation and necessary proof are well taken. It's wrong and unwise for any of us to accuse others of racism without proof, especially when the accused are innocent of racist motives and behaviors. But it's equally unwise for us to ignore individual and institutional acts of racism in this community. My statement was a commentary on our local elected officials who call attention to the racism of others (i.e., Gary Schiff's sign Good-bye Strom Thrumond) while supporting measures that gutted the Civilian Review Authority, thereby adding to the work load of the Civil Rights Commission, a bureau that was underperforming to begin with. All this has diminished the recourse of African Americans and other discriminated populations in our city who have been abused by the Minneapolis Police. One last note: When I was growing up in Omaha, Nebraska during the 60s and 70s my parents, teachers and other grownups around me clucked their tongues in disbelief at George Wallace and those nasty racists down South who supported him. Imagine their surprise when our city, like several other cities in the North at the time, experienced race riots. So dismiss me as over-the-top, if you like, along with anyone else who strays from the safe center of political discourse. But as long as some of our elected officials are more comfortable calling attention to the racism of politicians from other regions of the country, recently deceased or not, while ignoring institutional racism in Minneapolis, we may be in for another race riot this summer more devastating than last summer's. Now I'll be the gentleman and allow the List Manager the last word on this exchange.-Peter Schmitz CARAG TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
For the record, my post never accused Mr. Johnson of being a racist, which I define as discriminating against people on the basis of race. I did write that anyone who suggests that the patrons mistreated at the restaurant by the waitress and the manager should have taken their concerns to the owners is being naive and racially ignorant, and I stand by that statement, for the reasons given in my post. The greater point I was trying to make is society cannot afford white people being indifferent to the myriad instances in which black people are regarded with fear, suspicion and dislike for no reason other than the color of their skin. The preponderance of posts from the list before I made my comments reflected that indifference. This "empathy gap" explains why many whites are angered and perplexed when someone like Al Sharpton, who made notoriously false accusations in the Tawana Brawley non-incident, can nevertheless retain enough credibility to raise his public profile and now run for President. It's because there are enough incidences where blacks are treated shabbily to have even false claims in that vein gain resonance with people. It's interesting to hear Mr. Johnson now proclaim his total lack of interest in the matter, I guess as a means of "punishing" people who called him racist, or, in my case, racially ignorant. That he feels he can do this easily--that only the mistreated restaurant patrons and their supporters will be hurt by this recusal--proves my point. You can't engender genuine communication across racial lines without some attempt at empathy for what people endure. I'm genuinely sorry his feelings were hurt, and would ask him to go back and reread my post so he can understand what I said. But his petulant post in response helps no one, not even Mr. Johnson, beyond the small satisfaction he might have felt in writing it. I'm gone for the next two days and so will not be able to respond to further posts on the topic. Britt Robson Lyndale
RE: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
Members: Please try to stick to issues/arguments in your posts on this discussion thread. Other members should not become the topic of debate - gets personal very quickly, which is a rules violation. If you feel someone has done you a personal wrong, email them offlist or email me and I'll deal with it within the rules. David Brauer List manager TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
Peter Writes: One last note: When I was growing up in Omaha, Nebraska during the 60s and 70s my parents, teachers and other grownups around me clucked their tongues in disbelief at George Wallace and those nasty racists down South who supported him. Imagine their surprise when our city, like several other cities in the North at the time, experienced race riots. So dismiss me as over-the-top, if you like, along with anyone else who strays from the safe center of political discourse. But as long as some of our elected officials are more comfortable calling attention to the racism of politicians from other regions of the country, recently deceased or not, while ignoring institutional racism in Minneapolis, we may be in for another race riot this summer more devastating than last summer's. Dennis Responds: Emotions run high on this issue. Rightfully so... What are the responsibilities both socially and personally for us (privileged class) regarding our ancestors? Is there a need to bend over backwards and right the wrongs of our ancestors? Which is more inappropriate, our (the privileged class) inability to accept that the minorities in our country don't live exactly the way we do, or the minorities (non-privileged) inability to conform to the standards we set? I live in N MPLS, and am in a multi-racial marriage. I find (myself) judging others (minorities) with the feeling of inappropriate behavior on a continual basis. I wasn't raised that way. Yet, I also find myself questioning my ability to judge what IS appropriate. Why should I be the definitive word on what is and isn't appropriate? Yet, I also find myself unfairly discriminated against by minorities BECAUSE I'm from the privileged class. Do the ones (that discriminate against me) fairly represent the minorities? No they do not... Yet they help perpetuate the divisiveness that exists. I watched the movie Enemy of the State last night (again) with my wife. One scene that left an impression on me was the one where the undercover, secret-ops agents square-off with the mafia in the restaurant. Both sides have their guns pointed at the other, waiting for someone to make a move, either dropping their weapons, or shooting. IMHO- It's the same type of stalemate we face in our society. When will BOTH sides start being more reasonable in their approach to solving the problems that exist? _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
Britt Robson wrote: It wasn't a single waitress who disrespected them; the next person up on the hierarchical chain likewise treated these paying customers in a manner calculated to ensure they wouldn't return. Does anyone doubt this happened? On what basis? On the basis that I am a rational human being, and I understand that there are often two or more sides to every story, and I have only heard one side. You can jump to conclusions if you want to, but I don't have the time or energy, especially because they might both be wasted when we find out what really happened. You are saying the Market management made a calculated efforts to treat these people differently because of the color of their skin, based on one anecdotal report with no corroborating witnesses and without hearing from the Market management? Forget about jumping to conclusions, you just leaped over the Grand Canyon of assumptions. Mark Wilde Windom park __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
Sorry about that, I forgot to sign my post. Dennis Plante Jordan _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
I agree w/Jon and find it hard to believe that Market BBQ hasn't served a myriad of people of color over the years. Sounds like this is an isolated incident, and suggesting people take their complaints to the courthouse instead of the manager is a bit much. If you don't like the service or food then do the simple thing - DON'T GO BACK Jill Harmon Cleveland TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
You are saying the Market management made a calculated efforts to treat these people differently because of the color of their skin, based on one anecdotal report with no corroborating witnesses and without hearing from the Market management? While I am not going to comment on whether or not a boycott is warranted at this time (particularly because I want to see where action on this goes...and what action steps are taken to re-confront the management of Market BBQ), I do want to point out that there were witnesses to the incident that very clearly called into question the behavior of the Market BBQ management and wait staff, while there were no witnesses that came forward (while the police where in the establishment) to support the wait staff, management or to support their story concerning the supposedly out of control children. So, while we talk about this issue...let's not convieniently forget or leave out parts of the story. Be well. Brandon Lacy Campos Powderhorn Park _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)/Pig roasting fun
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith says; This dismissive, ad hominem, gratuitous, and unsubstantiated attack on the conduct of the Mpls. Police departments patrolmen mocks the rest of the posters message. He asks for proof of the family's allegations against the waitperson and manager. Yet he accepts, wholecloth, the families complaints against the police. He asks ...is anyone surprised? We should all be surprised by the ease, and acceptance, of dissing the Mpls. Police. Keith Reitman NearNorth The poster doesn't even bother with unsubstantiated attacks on me -- he goes right for the insults and pretends to know what I was thinking. I said nothing about proof of the allegations -- saying I did is a complete fabrication by the poster. Was I even attacking the Minneapolis Police Department? Did I say I believed the family's complaint against them? No, I was saying that such remarks about the police department are so commonplace these days, that it's no surprise to find them in this story, too. That does not say anything about which way I feel about the MPD. I think they are frequently and unfairly maligned. The whole point of my message was that there is a severe lack of common courtesy and an over-abundance of knee-jerk law suit filing in today's society. The poster just demonstrated my point with his over the top inflammatory rhetoric and fabrications. Sheesh. Chris Johnson Fulton TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)/(Self) roasting fun
In a message dated 7/11/03 4:22:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The poster doesn't even bother with unsubstantiated attacks on me -- he goes right for the insults and pretends to know what I was thinking. I said nothing about proof of the allegations -- saying I did is a complete fabrication by the poster. Keith says; I Regret my stridency in my last post. To the degree I misunderstood Mr. Johnson, that compounds my error. Keith Reitman NearNorth TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)/(Self) roastingfun
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith says; I Regret my stridency in my last post. To the degree I misunderstood Mr. Johnson, that compounds my error. Keith Reitman NearNorth I likewise apologize for any stridency in my message. Chris Johnson Fulton TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
The lack of empathy on this list for the family who attended Market Bar-B-Que, and the urge to rationalize and otherwise excuse the behavior of the people who "served" them, is appalling. These people are not lodging their complaint anonymously; they signed their name to their post. They obviously would not be contemplating legal action if other patrons hadn't unilaterally come forward to defend them, going so far and to provide their names for future testimony. It wasn't a single waitress who disrespected them; the next person up on the hierarchical chain likewise treated these paying customers in a manner calculated to ensure they wouldn't return. Does anyone doubt this happened? On what basis? People on this list must think that the "Whites Only" signs and other manifestations of Jim Crow are ancient history. They aren't. They are a fundamental part of that grandmother's personal experience. To suggest that this woman suck it up and extend herself further by getting in touch with the owners is naive at best--racial ignorance is a harsher, but no less accurate description. How have African-Americans in this country historically gotten satisfaction for their grief and insult; by trying to reason with executives further up the corporate ladder, or by threatening or filing a lawsuit and/or organizing a boycott? That's what racist establishments, whether the racism is widespread, happenstance, or otherwise, understand and react to. If the manager had caught the waitress pocketing the $65 bill, she would be fired on the spot, and I don't imagine there would be many on the list arguing that she just needed the money this one day and should be excused for her behavior. If the people on this list don't realize that black citizens routinely try to ignore or rationalize away the subtle and not-so-subtle ways they are treated with fear, suspicion and dislike by the white community, especially right here in passive-aggressive Minneapolis, then it's time to get a clue. When your mother is crying, your kids are scared, and a waitress, a restaurant manager and a police officer all don't want to own up to the fact that you were mistreated, despite the consensual opinion of objective observers, further patience is probably not a virtue. Finally, those who profess to want to know the "whole story" before drawing any conclusions should hope for a lawsuit. Otherwise your stance is just a convenient way of ignoring what happened, while congratulating yourselves on your fair-mindedness. Britt Robson Lyndale
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)
In a message dated 7/11/03 5:10:36 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The lack of empathy on this list for the family who attended Market Bar-B-Que, and the urge to rationalize and otherwise excuse the behavior of the people who served them, is appalling. Jon Sez: I think you're casting rather a large net here and certainly not being fair to some. In my post on the subject I simply related my very similar (empathetic) experience and questioned whether there might be a very very bad management/morale situation at Market (FYI I'm so white I effloresce for two hours after sundown). I'll look at the post again if I can retrieve it but I think the only mention of race was when there was a call put into the cops. If you've ever called the cops you'll know that they always ask for a description, including race, of the people you're calling about. My main point, other than to long for the resurrection of a formerly great joint (where I used to see lots and lots of Black folks), was that a boycott is a truly drastic action. Without a dedicated list of grievances in hand? One incident? I doubt that I've ever heard one called for like this. A boycott can swiftly destroy a business the size of Market. Yeah, before such action is taken, I think alternatives should be explored. How about very publicly kicking a lot of butts out the door accompanied by large apologies to the party? Why not just a huge Mea Culpa and a wake-up call instead of a shutdown order? Personally, I think the poster had an intolerable, tending towards surreal, experience. Like myself, she will probably never venture there again until all qualities of service have been verifiably restored, and maybe not even then. But was her parties' experience the engine for a boycott? I still can't see that. Jon Gorder Loring Park TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] BOYCOTT MARKET BAR-B-QUE (The e-mail)/Pig roasting fun
In a message dated 7/10/03 7:04:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Where is the evidence that Market BBQ, as a company, is at fault? ---SNIP If this family hasn't even tried to get satisfaction from the owners, then I can in no way support a boycott. Just because 1 or 2 employees of some company show some disrespect to a customer does not mean the company has a racist policy. As for the Minneapolis police who arrived -- is anyone surprised? Chris Johnson Fulton Keith says; This dismissive, ad hominem, gratuitous, and unsubstantiated attack on the conduct of the Mpls. Police departments patrolmen mocks the rest of the posters message. He asks for proof of the family's allegations against the waitperson and manager. Yet he accepts, wholecloth, the families complaints against the police. He asks ...is anyone surprised? We should all be surprised by the ease, and acceptance, of dissing the Mpls. Police. Where is the evidence... , indeed? Keith Reitman NearNorth TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
