Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Philipp Wolfer]

2014-12-02 10:33 GMT+01:00 MeinDummy :

> Alex Mauer wrote
> > Would it be reasonable to use the new 'data tracks' feature to add the
> > non-CDDA tracks (e.g. the SACD-Hybrid and DVD side of a Dualdisc?
> >
> > Or do you think that is a misuse of that feature, and that it should
> > only be used for CD+Extra releases?
>
> Not sure. Misuse is a matter of definition :)
> Anyway, this approach would allow us to put the entire SACD content into
> one
> medium.
> How does Picard handle the data tracks section?
>

Current Picard will just ignore the data and pregap tracks. A patch is
already available at http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/PICARD-658 for
the next version of Picard.
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[MeinDummy]

Alex Mauer wrote
> Would it be reasonable to use the new 'data tracks' feature to add the
> non-CDDA tracks (e.g. the SACD-Hybrid and DVD side of a Dualdisc?
> 
> Or do you think that is a misuse of that feature, and that it should
> only be used for CD+Extra releases?

Not sure. Misuse is a matter of definition :)
Anyway, this approach would allow us to put the entire SACD content into one
medium.
How does Picard handle the data tracks section?

BTW, I just played with this feature in the release editor and found out
that the "add XX tracks" button below the tracklist is hidden when there is
a DiscID. So currently there's no obvious way to add more than one data
track ( http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-7992 ).
As a workaround, new (data) tracks can be added using the track parser.



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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Alex Mauer]

On 11/27/2014 05:08 AM, ListMyCDs wrote:
> I see little benefits for splitting hybrid SACD discs to multiple 
> mediums. We currently have "Hybrid SACD" as a medium format which 
> already means there's also standard CD layer available. It could also be 
> extremely confusing to see "1xCD, 2xSACD" when you would have only one 
> disc in your hand. It's also confusing to see same tracks multiple times 
> when release in your hand lists them only once.

Would it be reasonable to use the new 'data tracks' feature to add the
non-CDDA tracks (e.g. the SACD-Hybrid and DVD side of a Dualdisc?

Or do you think that is a misuse of that feature, and that it should
only be used for CD+Extra releases?



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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[MeinDummy]

I just submitted 2 style tickets based on the discussion here:
http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-375
http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-376

Timo, you might want to add your objections to the proposed SACD style. The
others as far as I can tell were positive or neutral.

BTW, I support the pending ticket about track numbering (
http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-121 ).
If the Sub-tracks section is applied to the DVDs we discussed here it allows
to add some degree of logical structure at least.



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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Arturus Magi]

On Nov 28, 2014 12:50 PM, "Steve Martin"  wrote:
>
>
>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:34 AM, Tom Crocker 
wrote:
>>
>> Putting the info in the recording disambiguation comment only as I've
done makes it all a bit mysterious looking. I should at least have said
something about it in the annotation. Obviously medium sections [3] would
help a lot here.
>>
>> 1 http://musicbrainz.org/release/2b241c03-5d9e-4f25-949d-a9ae31c0da6d
>> 2 http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Hawke/Proposal/Track_numbering
>> 3 http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-6680
>>
>
> I’m not sure how Picard handles that kind of numbering.  I assume it
ignores it and just numbers everything sequentially.  It could make for a
tagging mess if it doesn’t know how to handle it.
>

Picard seems to ignore unusual numbering schemes.  I recently had to insert
a 0 frame track in an album with no track 1 in order to get the track
numbering to work.
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Tom Crocker]

On 28 November 2014 at 17:50, Steve Martin  wrote:

>
> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:34 AM, Tom Crocker 
> wrote:
>
> For what it's worth, 5d and 6c are what I did for DVD 1 on [1]
> I also followed Hawke's proposed numbering style [2] as best I could.
> Two things to note about this case that made it more likely I'd add two
> versions:
> a) The different versions were video and audio recordings with different
> sources of the same performance (1 - mixed video and 5.1 audio; 2 - hi-8
> camera video and audio (stereo) only). The stereo on the CD is also
> multi-source like the 5.1 on the video, but I also put those in as
> different recordings.
> b) The first chapter (track) is split in two on the first title and
> there's an extra chapter at the end of the first title.
>
> Putting the info in the recording disambiguation comment only as I've done
> makes it all a bit mysterious looking. I should at least have said
> something about it in the annotation. Obviously medium sections [3] would
> help a lot here.
>
> 1 http://musicbrainz.org/release/2b241c03-5d9e-4f25-949d-a9ae31c0da6d
> 2 http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Hawke/Proposal/Track_numbering
> 3 http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-6680
>
>
> I’m not sure how Picard handles that kind of numbering.  I assume it
> ignores it and just numbers everything sequentially.  It could make for a
> tagging mess if it doesn’t know how to handle it.
>
> I list all the actual chapters, as I’m thinking of someone ripping the
> DVD, and then wanting to use Picard to tag the chapters.  What does Picard
> do with “1.-“ as a track number?  I consider the actual chapters as gospel
> and number them consecutively, packaging is often wrong about numbers of
> tracks, etc. anyway and the reality of what is on the medium is what I try
> to represent.
>

I'm pretty sure the reality of what's on the DVD is what I entered. I don't
know how Picard handles numbering but I don't see why it would have helped
for me to number them 1-56. Presumably that's what things will fall back to.
1.- was an unlisted chapter in terms of packaging and the menu that only
plays when you select play all (or whatever)


>
> Yes, with no eti, all the duplicated track names make for a mess, that is
> why I use it.
>
> The CD should be different recordings as you have done since it is audio
> only and not a video.
>
> You need to change all the video recordings on that release to videos.  It
> is a shame there is no way to do that on initial track list entry.  You
> have to go back and edit each recording separately.
>

I entered this before the video flag existed (and don't care much for it).
Not sure why the script that auto-converted some didn't convert these.
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

> On Nov 28, 2014, at 11:34 AM, Tom Crocker  wrote:
> 
> For what it's worth, 5d and 6c are what I did for DVD 1 on [1]
> I also followed Hawke's proposed numbering style [2] as best I could. 
> Two things to note about this case that made it more likely I'd add two 
> versions:
> a) The different versions were video and audio recordings with different 
> sources of the same performance (1 - mixed video and 5.1 audio; 2 - hi-8 
> camera video and audio (stereo) only). The stereo on the CD is also 
> multi-source like the 5.1 on the video, but I also put those in as different 
> recordings.
> b) The first chapter (track) is split in two on the first title and there's 
> an extra chapter at the end of the first title.
> 
> Putting the info in the recording disambiguation comment only as I've done 
> makes it all a bit mysterious looking. I should at least have said something 
> about it in the annotation. Obviously medium sections [3] would help a lot 
> here.
> 
> 1 http://musicbrainz.org/release/2b241c03-5d9e-4f25-949d-a9ae31c0da6d 
>  
> 2 http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Hawke/Proposal/Track_numbering 
> 
> 3 http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-6680 
> 
> 


I’m not sure how Picard handles that kind of numbering.  I assume it ignores it 
and just numbers everything sequentially.  It could make for a tagging mess if 
it doesn’t know how to handle it.

I list all the actual chapters, as I’m thinking of someone ripping the DVD, and 
then wanting to use Picard to tag the chapters.  What does Picard do with “1.-“ 
as a track number?  I consider the actual chapters as gospel and number them 
consecutively, packaging is often wrong about numbers of tracks, etc. anyway 
and the reality of what is on the medium is what I try to represent.

Yes, with no eti, all the duplicated track names make for a mess, that is why I 
use it.

The CD should be different recordings as you have done since it is audio only 
and not a video.

You need to change all the video recordings on that release to videos.  It is a 
shame there is no way to do that on initial track list entry.  You have to go 
back and edit each recording separately.

--
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Tom Crocker]

On 28 November 2014 at 16:07, MeinDummy  wrote:

> Decisions should be made concerning:
> 4.) how to add the SACD layer of the hybrid SACD:
>   a) not at all
>   b) include the tracks in the first medium (but sacrifice the option to
> add
> DiscIDs to it)
>   c) multichannel only (because the stereo recordings are already covered
> by
> the CD)
>   d) stereo + multichannel (because that's the full content of that layer)
> 5.) what to include in the DVD medium
>   a) nothing at all (single medium release with an annotation saying that
> every recording represents a certain track in various formats and that the
> DVD contains some videos and more)
>   b) the 5.1 mixes only
>   c) the 5.1 mixes and the videos (combined with option 4a to have
> everything included somewhere but no duplicate recordings across the
> release)
>   d) the stereo mixes, the 5.1 mixes and the videos (= the entire audio and
> video content)
>   e) (not sure but I might have missed other points of view here)
> 6.) how to deal with the 5.1 audio recordings
>   a) use the same recordings as for the stereo tracks
>   b) separate recordings with ETI "5.1 mix"
>   c) separate recordings with disambiguation comment "5.1 mix"
>
> My votes: 4d, 5d, 6c
>

For what it's worth, 5d and 6c are what I did for DVD 1 on [1]
I also followed Hawke's proposed numbering style [2] as best I could.
Two things to note about this case that made it more likely I'd add two
versions:
a) The different versions were video and audio recordings with different
sources of the same performance (1 - mixed video and 5.1 audio; 2 - hi-8
camera video and audio (stereo) only). The stereo on the CD is also
multi-source like the 5.1 on the video, but I also put those in as
different recordings.
b) The first chapter (track) is split in two on the first title and there's
an extra chapter at the end of the first title.

Putting the info in the recording disambiguation comment only as I've done
makes it all a bit mysterious looking. I should at least have said
something about it in the annotation. Obviously medium sections [3] would
help a lot here.

1 http://musicbrainz.org/release/2b241c03-5d9e-4f25-949d-a9ae31c0da6d
2 http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Hawke/Proposal/Track_numbering
3 http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-6680
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

Thank you so much for breaking this down and summarizing it.  It would be great 
if we could come to some kind of agreement and get something added to the Style 
Guidelines.


> We all seem to agree that:
> 1.) the CD layer of the hybrid SACD shall be represented by one medium
> (matching the DiscID of that layer)
> 2.) the DVD content shall be put into a single separate medium (if at all) 
> 3.) non-audio or video content like the photo gallery shall not be included
> 
> Decisions should be made concerning:
> 4.) how to add the SACD layer of the hybrid SACD:
>  a) not at all
>  b) include the tracks in the first medium (but sacrifice the option to add
> DiscIDs to it)
>  c) multichannel only (because the stereo recordings are already covered by
> the CD)
>  d) stereo + multichannel (because that's the full content of that layer)
> 5.) what to include in the DVD medium
>  a) nothing at all (single medium release with an annotation saying that
> every recording represents a certain track in various formats and that the
> DVD contains some videos and more)
>  b) the 5.1 mixes only
>  c) the 5.1 mixes and the videos (combined with option 4a to have
> everything included somewhere but no duplicate recordings across the
> release)
>  d) the stereo mixes, the 5.1 mixes and the videos (= the entire audio and
> video content)
>  e) (not sure but I might have missed other points of view here)
> 6.) how to deal with the 5.1 audio recordings
>  a) use the same recordings as for the stereo tracks
>  b) separate recordings with ETI "5.1 mix"
>  c) separate recordings with disambiguation comment "5.1 mix"
> 
> My votes: 4d, 5d, 6c

My votes: 4(c or d), 5d, 6c

Note on 2: There may be a rare DualDisc with no surround or video content on 
the DVD side, just higher resolution stereo.  I assume that is your "if at all" 
case?

Note on 3: I don't object to the photo gallery being listed, don't really have 
an opinion.

Note on 4: The purist in me says 4d, but I would not object to 4c when the 
stereo recordings are the same on both CD and SACD.  And, if we go with 4d, I 
have a lot of work to do as many are already done as 4c :-)

Note on 6: I believe that they should have ETI on the track list (multiple 
tracks with the same name causes too much confusion) and disambiguation on the 
recording itself.


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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[MeinDummy]

Cheezmo wrote
>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 3:47 AM, MeinDummy <

> MeinDummy@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> But if we put the entire DVD content into a single medium wouldn't it be
>> more consistent to split hybrid SACDs by layers, i.e. such that the
>> medium
>> for the SACD layer would contain the stereo and the 5.1 tracks?
>> Currently, we split them by audio formats. Half of the SACD layer content
>> is
>> represented by the "CD / SACD stereo" disc and the other half by the
>> "SACD
>> multichannel" disc. (Why don't these represent the same content on the
>> DVD
>> as well?).
>> 
>> The release split by layers would look like this: 
>> 1.) medium: hybrid SACD, title "CD layer", 12 stereo tracks
>> 2.) medium: hybrid SACD, title "SACD layer", 12 stereo tracks + 12
>> multichannel tracks
>> 3.) medium: DVD, title "DVD" or none, 12 stereo tracks + 12 multichannel
>> tracks + 3 videos (+ [photo gallery] ???)
> 
> I started off trying to do SACD's that way but got a lot of voter push
> back.  It is apparently more acceptable for DualDiscs where the "sides"
> feel more like separate mediums.  The "logical" separation of CD and SACD
> "layers" doesn't sit as well with people but makes sense to me.
> 
> I am fine with it either way, the cases where a separate stereo track list
> is required for the Hybrid SACD (due to different recordings or track
> lists) is pretty small so your case 2.) is seldom needed, but it doesn't
> do any harm other than being a little more difficult to enter and does
> accurately represent the structure of the "hybrid" medium.
> 
> Think about what hybrid means, it is really two different mediums combined
> in one physical object.  If the DualDisc people had figured out how to do
> it on one side (with dual focussing lasers or something) they would
> probably be done the same way.
> 
>> BTW, ETI like "5.1 mix" should be removed from the recording titles and
>> added to the disambiguation comments instead. But it should remain in the
>> track titles. Otherwise, the all-in-one DVD tracklists would be very
>> confusing.
> 
> I've tried to do that in the past but nikki (and others) usually vote
> against it because the recording name should match the majority of the
> track titles.  My argument is that since this is "pseudo-eti, it really
> doesn't belong on the recordings, but I have yet to win that battle.

+1 to everything you said

I'll try to wrap up what we have so far to make sure this doesn't end
without a conclusion.

We all seem to agree that:
1.) the CD layer of the hybrid SACD shall be represented by one medium
(matching the DiscID of that layer)
2.) the DVD content shall be put into a single separate medium (if at all) 
3.) non-audio or video content like the photo gallery shall not be included

Decisions should be made concerning:
4.) how to add the SACD layer of the hybrid SACD:
  a) not at all
  b) include the tracks in the first medium (but sacrifice the option to add
DiscIDs to it)
  c) multichannel only (because the stereo recordings are already covered by
the CD)
  d) stereo + multichannel (because that's the full content of that layer)
5.) what to include in the DVD medium
  a) nothing at all (single medium release with an annotation saying that
every recording represents a certain track in various formats and that the
DVD contains some videos and more)
  b) the 5.1 mixes only
  c) the 5.1 mixes and the videos (combined with option 4a to have
everything included somewhere but no duplicate recordings across the
release)
  d) the stereo mixes, the 5.1 mixes and the videos (= the entire audio and
video content)
  e) (not sure but I might have missed other points of view here)
6.) how to deal with the 5.1 audio recordings
  a) use the same recordings as for the stereo tracks
  b) separate recordings with ETI "5.1 mix"
  c) separate recordings with disambiguation comment "5.1 mix"

My votes: 4d, 5d, 6c




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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

Oh, that is a Hybrid SACD, musicbrainz has a format for that and it is a big 
part of what we have been discussing.

> On Nov 28, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Frederic Da Vitoria  wrote:
> 
> I thought you meant CD and SACD :-D
> 
> 
> 2014-11-28 16:19 GMT+01:00 Steve Martin  >:
> Really?  CD and DVD on one side.  That is an oddity.  What is the title?
> 
> I’m surprised someone would do that because most DVD players would not have a 
> way to specify which layer to play, and could possibly default to the CD 
> layer. Or at least have no way to choose other than whichever layer the DVD 
> player defaults to.
> 
> It works for SACD (which is technically CD and DVD (SACD trickery) on the 
> same side) because part of the SACD player spec is that there be an option in 
> the player to choose the CD or the SACD layer.
> 
> 
>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 8:46 AM, Frederic Da Vitoria > > wrote:
>> 
>> IIRC, I have such a Dual Disc. After all, most DVDs are already double 
>> layers.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Frederic Da Vitoria
> (davitof)
> 
> Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - 
> http://www.april.org 
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

I thought you meant CD and SACD :-D


2014-11-28 16:19 GMT+01:00 Steve Martin :

> Really?  CD and DVD on one side.  That is an oddity.  What is the title?
>
> I’m surprised someone would do that because most DVD players would not
> have a way to specify which layer to play, and could possibly default to
> the CD layer. Or at least have no way to choose other than whichever layer
> the DVD player defaults to.
>
> It works for SACD (which is technically CD and DVD (SACD trickery) on the
> same side) because part of the SACD player spec is that there be an option
> in the player to choose the CD or the SACD layer.
>
>
> On Nov 28, 2014, at 8:46 AM, Frederic Da Vitoria 
> wrote:
>
> IIRC, I have such a Dual Disc. After all, most DVDs are already double
> layers.
>
>
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(davitof)

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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

Really?  CD and DVD on one side.  That is an oddity.  What is the title?

I’m surprised someone would do that because most DVD players would not have a 
way to specify which layer to play, and could possibly default to the CD layer. 
Or at least have no way to choose other than whichever layer the DVD player 
defaults to.

It works for SACD (which is technically CD and DVD (SACD trickery) on the same 
side) because part of the SACD player spec is that there be an option in the 
player to choose the CD or the SACD layer.


> On Nov 28, 2014, at 8:46 AM, Frederic Da Vitoria  wrote:
> 
> IIRC, I have such a Dual Disc. After all, most DVDs are already double layers.
> 


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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2014-11-28 15:24 GMT+01:00 Steve Martin :

>
> > On Nov 28, 2014, at 3:47 AM, MeinDummy  wrote:
> >
> > But if we put the entire DVD content into a single medium wouldn't it be
> > more consistent to split hybrid SACDs by layers, i.e. such that the
> medium
> > for the SACD layer would contain the stereo and the 5.1 tracks?
> > Currently, we split them by audio formats. Half of the SACD layer
> content is
> > represented by the "CD / SACD stereo" disc and the other half by the
> "SACD
> > multichannel" disc. (Why don't these represent the same content on the
> DVD
> > as well?).
> >
> > The release split by layers would look like this:
> > 1.) medium: hybrid SACD, title "CD layer", 12 stereo tracks
> > 2.) medium: hybrid SACD, title "SACD layer", 12 stereo tracks + 12
> > multichannel tracks
> > 3.) medium: DVD, title "DVD" or none, 12 stereo tracks + 12 multichannel
> > tracks + 3 videos (+ [photo gallery] ???)
>
> I started off trying to do SACD's that way but got a lot of voter push
> back.  It is apparently more acceptable for DualDiscs where the "sides"
> feel more like separate mediums.  The "logical" separation of CD and SACD
> "layers" doesn't sit as well with people but makes sense to me.
>
> I am fine with it either way, the cases where a separate stereo track list
> is required for the Hybrid SACD (due to different recordings or track
> lists) is pretty small so your case 2.) is seldom needed, but it doesn't do
> any harm other than being a little more difficult to enter and does
> accurately represent the structure of the "hybrid" medium.
>
> Think about what hybrid means, it is really two different mediums combined
> in one physical object.  If the DualDisc people had figured out how to do
> it on one side (with dual focussing lasers or something) they would
> probably be done the same way.
>

IIRC, I have such a Dual Disc. After all, most DVDs are already double
layers.

-- 
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(davitof)

Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » -
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

> On Nov 28, 2014, at 3:47 AM, MeinDummy  wrote:
> 
> But if we put the entire DVD content into a single medium wouldn't it be
> more consistent to split hybrid SACDs by layers, i.e. such that the medium
> for the SACD layer would contain the stereo and the 5.1 tracks?
> Currently, we split them by audio formats. Half of the SACD layer content is
> represented by the "CD / SACD stereo" disc and the other half by the "SACD
> multichannel" disc. (Why don't these represent the same content on the DVD
> as well?).
> 
> The release split by layers would look like this: 
> 1.) medium: hybrid SACD, title "CD layer", 12 stereo tracks
> 2.) medium: hybrid SACD, title "SACD layer", 12 stereo tracks + 12
> multichannel tracks
> 3.) medium: DVD, title "DVD" or none, 12 stereo tracks + 12 multichannel
> tracks + 3 videos (+ [photo gallery] ???)

I started off trying to do SACD's that way but got a lot of voter push back.  
It is apparently more acceptable for DualDiscs where the "sides" feel more like 
separate mediums.  The "logical" separation of CD and SACD "layers" doesn't sit 
as well with people but makes sense to me.

I am fine with it either way, the cases where a separate stereo track list is 
required for the Hybrid SACD (due to different recordings or track lists) is 
pretty small so your case 2.) is seldom needed, but it doesn't do any harm 
other than being a little more difficult to enter and does accurately represent 
the structure of the "hybrid" medium.

Think about what hybrid means, it is really two different mediums combined in 
one physical object.  If the DualDisc people had figured out how to do it on 
one side (with dual focussing lasers or something) they would probably be done 
the same way.

> BTW, ETI like "5.1 mix" should be removed from the recording titles and
> added to the disambiguation comments instead. But it should remain in the
> track titles. Otherwise, the all-in-one DVD tracklists would be very
> confusing.

I've tried to do that in the past but nikki (and others) usually vote against 
it because the recording name should match the majority of the track titles.  
My argument is that since this is "pseudo-eti, it really doesn't belong on the 
recordings, but I have yet to win that battle.


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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

> On Nov 28, 2014, at 4:41 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren  
> wrote:
> 
> I personally see little reason to have a second medium for the SACD, except 
> in the not that common case where the tracklists actually differ and we need 
> to store that somehow (as in, they have a different number of tracks or 
> whatever, not just as in they're 5.1). Most hybrid I've seen entered just has 
> one medium to represent both sides and I don't really see that as a big 
> issue, definitely not as bad as making up an extra medium that then makes 
> people confused because they only have one disc. I do know the guidelines 
> claim 5.1 should be different recordings, but I'd say there's a limit to what 
> is reasonable in order to follow that. 

I would really prefer to have a single medium for all SACD, but in the hybrid 
case people really want to be able to use the discid for the CD layer which 
requires separating them.

5.1 mixes absolutely must be included.  They are separate recordings, and can 
be ripped and tagged with PIcard.

> 
> For the DVD, I'd say the example release in the first post looks pretty good 
> already (I might have skipped the photo gallery though). Again it's a case of 
> "does it make sense to do all twice for the 5.1" and again my initial 
> reaction is "not really" - but in any case, the other way I could see it is 
> as stereo, then 5.1, then videos, but still all in one medium and with ETI.


Again, the 5.1 mixes are unique recordings, can be ripped and tagged and need 
to be included to accurately represent what recordings are on the release.

People can and do rip SACD (using old PS3’s or in analog setups), they also rip 
DVD and Blu-ray extracting all the different mixes and videos and not being 
able to tag all that content with Picard would be a crime.

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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

> For me 
> http://musicbrainz.org/release/aaf8db6f-a285-40ef-9970-56c3d7da16f9 is 
> currently enough to represent this release. MB has same amount of tracks 
> like we see on release cover. It's also same amount of tracks you get if 
> you rip this release (CD layer) with your computer so it's more useful 
> for tagging. Most of us are able to understand that because it's Hybrid 
> SACD these same tracks are not only in SACD but also in CD format. We 
> don't need to duplicate tracks and have 16 or 24 tracks or 2-3 mediums 
> on tracklist to understand this. Annotation could include "same tracks 
> available in 3 different mixes" if necessary.

What if someone rips the stereo and the multichannel tracks separately and 
wants to tag them (you can rip SACD's with an old PS3 and the correct 
software)?  In that case listing them once is not sufficient.  The multichannel 
mixes are unique recordings also, and leaving them off is not representing all 
the tracks that are on the release, and leaving the user no way to tag them.

> 
> We could have 3 mediums with 24 tracks/recordings for this release (CD, 
> SACD Stereo, SACD Surround). But for what can you use those recordings? 
> You can't merge some of them with other recordings because of different 
> mixes. In this case recordings would just repeat the same data, 
> duration, performers and have exactly same relationships. We might not 
> be able to include some engineers to recordings but these can still be 
> mentioned on annotations or linked to release level. We already have 
> similar situation with CDs which are mastered by multiple persons (and 
> can't store information on recording level).

The stereo recordings can be merged.  Your insight that the multichannel mixes 
can not be merged is exactly why they need to be included.  They are separate 
recordings.  You don't want to leave recordings off a release if you are trying 
to represent its content.


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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

It is possible to rip both stereo and multichannel and tag them both with 
musicbrainz so I would be really disappointed if it was decided not to include 
all the tracks that are on the release.

You can also rip videos from DVD/Blu-ray and tag them so of course would like 
them included as well.

I haven't been adding photo galleries, interactive features like that are kind 
of odd birds that we can't really represent (and it is hard to imagine anyone 
trying to rip/tag them, but maybe there is a way).

If you don't feel like adding the SACD layer, I don't think you should let it 
prevent you from adding a reelase, but please don't vote against others that 
add them. As you say, is very difficult to enter all the different versions of 
tracks etc on some of these large SACD/DVD/Blu-ray releases, and while I have 
taken on the challenge, it isn't something I would figure most people would 
want to deal with.  More important to get the release in there, even if 
incomplete, and let someone finish it later.

> On Nov 28, 2014, at 3:47 AM, MeinDummy  wrote:
> 
> ListMyCDs.com wrote
>> There's some cases when we aren't able to store all data like when there
>> could be another mixer for multichannel material. Still for most of us
>> it's just easier to behave like there's no SACD-layers.
> 
> So you propose to leave out some of the tracks on the physical media in the
> MB release? I.e. the entire SACD layer and maybe part of the DVD would be
> omitted?
> I don't agree and after some extrapolation of the other replies I think the
> others disagree as well.
> IMO, at least all the audio tracks should be included in the MB release. And
> now that recordings have the video attribute I think other multimedia
> content should be there as well (still not sure about that photo gallery,
> though).
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren]

I personally see little reason to have a second medium for the SACD, except
in the not that common case where the tracklists actually differ and we
need to store that somehow (as in, they have a different number of tracks
or whatever, not just as in they're 5.1). Most hybrid I've seen entered
just has one medium to represent both sides and I don't really see that as
a big issue, definitely not as bad as making up an extra medium that then
makes people confused because they only have one disc. I do know the
guidelines claim 5.1 should be different recordings, but I'd say there's a
limit to what is reasonable in order to follow that.

For the DVD, I'd say the example release in the first post looks pretty
good already (I might have skipped the photo gallery though). Again it's a
case of "does it make sense to do all twice for the 5.1" and again my
initial reaction is "not really" - but in any case, the other way I could
see it is as stereo, then 5.1, then videos, but still all in one medium and
with ETI.
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[ListMyCDs]

On 28.11.2014 11:47, MeinDummy wrote:
> So you propose to leave out some of the tracks on the physical media in the
> MB release? I.e. the entire SACD layer and maybe part of the DVD would be
> omitted?

For me 
http://musicbrainz.org/release/aaf8db6f-a285-40ef-9970-56c3d7da16f9 is 
currently enough to represent this release. MB has same amount of tracks 
like we see on release cover. It's also same amount of tracks you get if 
you rip this release (CD layer) with your computer so it's more useful 
for tagging. Most of us are able to understand that because it's Hybrid 
SACD these same tracks are not only in SACD but also in CD format. We 
don't need to duplicate tracks and have 16 or 24 tracks or 2-3 mediums 
on tracklist to understand this. Annotation could include "same tracks 
available in 3 different mixes" if necessary.

We could have 3 mediums with 24 tracks/recordings for this release (CD, 
SACD Stereo, SACD Surround). But for what can you use those recordings? 
You can't merge some of them with other recordings because of different 
mixes. In this case recordings would just repeat the same data, 
duration, performers and have exactly same relationships. We might not 
be able to include some engineers to recordings but these can still be 
mentioned on annotations or linked to release level. We already have 
similar situation with CDs which are mastered by multiple persons (and 
can't store information on recording level).

> I don't agree and after some extrapolation of the other replies I think the
> others disagree as well.

If we don't count you and me, this discussion has now posts from 2 other 
editors. MusicBrainz has almost 1,3 million registered editors. Earlier 
topic had opinions of 5 editors.

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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[MeinDummy]

Thank you for your answers so far.

In response to the all-in-one DVD part of the discussion I just wanted to
point out that splitting single physical media into separate tracklists is
not so out of this world. Some of us agreed here to do that for SACDs and we
also do it to add some logical structure to digital media releases (see
https://musicbrainz.org/doc/Medium "Digital ... releases ... should be
entered as several mediums if they are officially divided in several
"discs".)

However, I understand and partially agree to putting the entire DVD content
into a single medium.
The biggest drawback is the lack of a logical structure which could be
overcome in the future as Cheezmo said if MB supported multiple named
tracklists on a single medium.

But if we put the entire DVD content into a single medium wouldn't it be
more consistent to split hybrid SACDs by layers, i.e. such that the medium
for the SACD layer would contain the stereo and the 5.1 tracks?
Currently, we split them by audio formats. Half of the SACD layer content is
represented by the "CD / SACD stereo" disc and the other half by the "SACD
multichannel" disc. (Why don't these represent the same content on the DVD
as well?).

The release split by layers would look like this: 
1.) medium: hybrid SACD, title "CD layer", 12 stereo tracks
2.) medium: hybrid SACD, title "SACD layer", 12 stereo tracks + 12
multichannel tracks
3.) medium: DVD, title "DVD" or none, 12 stereo tracks + 12 multichannel
tracks + 3 videos (+ [photo gallery] ???)
This way, we would have every single piece of audio or video represented by
one track in one of the tracklists.

BTW, ETI like "5.1 mix" should be removed from the recording titles and
added to the disambiguation comments instead. But it should remain in the
track titles. Otherwise, the all-in-one DVD tracklists would be very
confusing.



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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[MeinDummy]

ListMyCDs.com wrote
> There's some cases when we aren't able to store all data like when there
> could be another mixer for multichannel material. Still for most of us
> it's just easier to behave like there's no SACD-layers.

So you propose to leave out some of the tracks on the physical media in the
MB release? I.e. the entire SACD layer and maybe part of the DVD would be
omitted?
I don't agree and after some extrapolation of the other replies I think the
others disagree as well.
IMO, at least all the audio tracks should be included in the MB release. And
now that recordings have the video attribute I think other multimedia
content should be there as well (still not sure about that photo gallery,
though).




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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

It is only necessary if the Hybrid SACD has mulichannel mixes.  Those are 
separate recordings and need to be included on the release.

So, yes, I should have mentioned that.  If you have a Hybrid SACD with only 
stereo tracks and the CD and SACD tracks are all the same recordings (there are 
rare cases where they aren't) then a Hybrid SACD can and should be represented 
as a single medium...


SACD (stereo only) - single medium
SACD (stereo & multichannel) - single medium, eti to distinguish multichannel 
mixes.

Hybrid SACD (stereo only) - single medium
Hybrid SACD (stereo & multichannel) - two Hybrid SACD mediums ("CD / SACD 
stereo" and "SACD multichannel")

DualDisc - two DualDisc mediums ("CD side" and "DVD side")

DVD/Blu-ray - one medium with eti to distinguish tracks with the same name.

That is my shot at summarizing how I think it should be done (and how it is 
mostly done, I've been actively working on getting to this model on my 
collections).

I think most people would understand having two mediums for a DualDisc (there 
are two physical sides usually labeled CD side and DVD side)

The only one that is potentially confusing is the Hybrid SACD w/multichannel 
case where it shows 2 X Hybrid SACD and there is of course only one disc.  But, 
until there is another way to attach a discid to these releases I think it is 
the best we can do for now.

> On Nov 27, 2014, at 8:06 AM, ListMyCDs  wrote:
> 
> On 27.11.2014 15:55, Steve Martin wrote:
>> The only reason the SACD is split into separate mediums is so that 
> the discid can be attached to the CD component.
> 
> If CD TOC is attached to hybrid SACD everyone is still able to 
> understand it being related to CD layer of it. What benefit there is to 
> add another medium just because of CD TOC?
> 
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> 
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[ListMyCDs]

On 27.11.2014 15:55, Steve Martin wrote:
 > The only reason the SACD is split into separate mediums is so that 
the discid can be attached to the CD component.

If CD TOC is attached to hybrid SACD everyone is still able to 
understand it being related to CD layer of it. What benefit there is to 
add another medium just because of CD TOC?

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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

The only reason the SACD is split into separate mediums is so that the discid 
can be attached to the CD component.

Non-hybrid SACD with stereo and multichannel mixes are entered as a single 
medium, since they do not have this issue. Example: Jeff Beck Blow by Blow... 
http://musicbrainz.org/release/d0dc531c-9452-4855-af3f-676597eb3711


> On Nov 27, 2014, at 5:04 AM, MeinDummy  wrote:
> 
> Philipp Wolfer-2 wrote
>> Why should this content, which is all part of a single DVD medium, be
>> splitted on MB?
> 
> Because it's more consistent with the way the SACD is represented.


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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Steve Martin]

I maintain a very large collection of multichannel discs, Hybrid SACD, 
DVD-Audio, DualDisc, etc. and have extensive experience entering these 
releases.  I initially started out of the mindset that we should create 
multiple media for all the various track lists on DVD and Blu-ray but 
eventually after much debate through edits, etc. came to the conclusion that 
representing them as one medium makes the most sense.

Hybrid SACD and DualDisc represent a special challenge and should be handled 
differently because they have a CD element which can and should have a discid 
attached.  That is why they are often entered as two mediums, one with the CD 
content (that can have a discid attached), and one with the content that is on 
the DVD side (in the DualDisc example) or on the SACD multichannel layer in the 
Hybrid SACD case.   For standard SACD and DVD/DVD-Audio/Blu-ray releases only 
one medium is used since there is no discid involved.

The way to make DVD’s and Blu-rays with multiple tracklists, etc. work is by 
using ETI.  There are some extreme examples recently with Blu-ray releases of 
XTC and Yes albums that have as many of 5 different versions of the album on 
one medium (new stereo mix, 5.1 mix, original mix, quad mix, archive master, 
etc.).  By including ETI with all tracks for which there are multiple 
“versions” with the same name, it is very clear what is what.

Here is an example of a Blu-ray with a crazy amount of tracks, but with the ETI 
it makes perfect sense…

http://musicbrainz.org/release/5a64a299-f80c-4dc7-b9ad-ef9d049b2d17 


To summarize, after extensive experience editing this type of release and 
debating with various editors over several years, I’m convinced that the single 
medium with appropriate eti is the way to go (with the DualDisc and Hybrid SACD 
discid examples being exceptions).

At some point in the future it would be nice if MB supported multiple named 
tracklists on a single medium (which the ability to attach a discid to a 
tracklist?) or something but I feel very strongly this is the best way to go 
for now.


> On Nov 27, 2014, at 6:24 AM, Philipp Wolfer  wrote:
> 
> 2014-11-27 12:04 GMT+01:00 MeinDummy  >:
> Philipp Wolfer-2 wrote
> > Why should this content, which is all part of a single DVD medium, be
> > splitted on MB?
> 
> Because it's more consistent with the way the SACD is represented.
> 
> 
> Does this imply that the exact same DVD should be entered differently if it 
> was released separately or together with a normal CD instead of the SACD?
>  
> 
> Philipp Wolfer-2 wrote
> > If we split every release that consists of different "parts" we would also
> > need to split a couple of CD releases because the content is strctured in
> > some way (e.g. "album track" and "unreleased bonus tracks").
> 
> This is not really the same.
> The structure for these CD releases is just in the booklet. There'll still
> be a single DiscID.
> On the DM DVDs, there is a DVD menu with separate submenus for the stereo
> and 5.1 versions of the album.
> 
> I don't see much difference in this really. The exact same DVD layout (same 
> tracks and chapters) could have a completely different menu structure. It's 
> just the view of the creators of this release how they see the structure of 
> their work. The argument to follow the layout of the SACD is strange. I have 
> seen releases were there is 1 CD and 2 LPs, the CD and LPs containing the 
> same audio content. Nobody would propose to split the CD into two "mediums" 
> on MB just to follow the layout of the LPs.
> 
> And it is really confusing when 1 DVD disc suddenly shows up as 3 discs on 
> MB. People would actually assume it is a completely different release. As 
> another example take any other DVD release, like this 2 DVD video release:
> http://musicbrainz.org/release/c821de73-1867-4ade-9084-d6f7c7c54d8b 
> 
> 
> In your logic the second disc would be splitted in 3 mediums on MB. I 
> definitely would not look for a 4 DVD release on MB when I know for sure the 
> release contains only 2 discs.
> 
> Note: I deliberately focused on the DVD issue here, as I am not sure and 
> don't know enought about the SACD. The CD and SACD layer seem to have 
> different track listings, in this regard it would be somewhat similar to a 
> release where the disc has different content on both sides (I have seen CD + 
> DVD on a single dual sided disc), and even if it is just one disc this can 
> only be entered as two mediums.
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Philipp Wolfer]

2014-11-27 12:04 GMT+01:00 MeinDummy :

> Philipp Wolfer-2 wrote
> > Why should this content, which is all part of a single DVD medium, be
> > splitted on MB?
>
> Because it's more consistent with the way the SACD is represented.
>
>
Does this imply that the exact same DVD should be entered differently if it
was released separately or together with a normal CD instead of the SACD?


>
> Philipp Wolfer-2 wrote
> > If we split every release that consists of different "parts" we would
> also
> > need to split a couple of CD releases because the content is strctured in
> > some way (e.g. "album track" and "unreleased bonus tracks").
>
> This is not really the same.
> The structure for these CD releases is just in the booklet. There'll still
> be a single DiscID.
> On the DM DVDs, there is a DVD menu with separate submenus for the stereo
> and 5.1 versions of the album.
>

I don't see much difference in this really. The exact same DVD layout (same
tracks and chapters) could have a completely different menu structure. It's
just the view of the creators of this release how they see the structure of
their work. The argument to follow the layout of the SACD is strange. I
have seen releases were there is 1 CD and 2 LPs, the CD and LPs containing
the same audio content. Nobody would propose to split the CD into two
"mediums" on MB just to follow the layout of the LPs.

And it is really confusing when 1 DVD disc suddenly shows up as 3 discs on
MB. People would actually assume it is a completely different release. As
another example take any other DVD release, like this 2 DVD video release:
http://musicbrainz.org/release/c821de73-1867-4ade-9084-d6f7c7c54d8b

In your logic the second disc would be splitted in 3 mediums on MB. I
definitely would not look for a 4 DVD release on MB when I know for sure
the release contains only 2 discs.

Note: I deliberately focused on the DVD issue here, as I am not sure and
don't know enought about the SACD. The CD and SACD layer seem to have
different track listings, in this regard it would be somewhat similar to a
release where the disc has different content on both sides (I have seen CD
+ DVD on a single dual sided disc), and even if it is just one disc this
can only be entered as two mediums.
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[MeinDummy]

Philipp Wolfer-2 wrote
> Why should this content, which is all part of a single DVD medium, be
> splitted on MB?

Because it's more consistent with the way the SACD is represented.


Philipp Wolfer-2 wrote
> If we split every release that consists of different "parts" we would also
> need to split a couple of CD releases because the content is strctured in
> some way (e.g. "album track" and "unreleased bonus tracks").

This is not really the same. 
The structure for these CD releases is just in the booklet. There'll still
be a single DiscID.
On the DM DVDs, there is a DVD menu with separate submenus for the stereo
and 5.1 versions of the album.



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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[ListMyCDs]

I see little benefits for splitting hybrid SACD discs to multiple 
mediums. We currently have "Hybrid SACD" as a medium format which 
already means there's also standard CD layer available. It could also be 
extremely confusing to see "1xCD, 2xSACD" when you would have only one 
disc in your hand. It's also confusing to see same tracks multiple times 
when release in your hand lists them only once.

There's some cases when we aren't able to store all data like when there 
could be another mixer for multichannel material. Still for most of us 
it's just easier to behave like there's no SACD-layers. Like these would 
be standard CD's. Disc ID are for CD and ISRC codes and fingerprints are 
usually ripped from CD layers. People commonly merge recordings of these 
with stereo recordings.

When MB GUI doesn't support different layers of medium I see no point of 
trying to store data with separate mediums. It's usually just confusing 
for random MB visitors and matching data with other databases would get 
more complex.

-- 
ListMyCDs / Timo Martikainen

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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[Philipp Wolfer]

2014-11-27 10:50 GMT+01:00 MeinDummy :

> There is more like this. All ten of the earlier Depeche Mode albums were
> re-released in a similar format.
>
> Most of the corresponding MB releases have the SACD split into 2
> tracklists/discs as I suggested but the DVDs are usually all-in-one.
>

I can see the point in splitting the CD / SACD part. But I would keep the
DVD as one medium. As I understand it, it is a video DVD with a normal menu
were you can select the different features. I suppose the audio tracks are
technically also videos (typically there is some light animation playing or
just a still image shown), and there are some bonus music video tracks (one
in this case). Why should this content, which is all part of a single DVD
medium, be splitted on MB? If we split every release that consists of
different "parts" we would also need to split a couple of CD releases
because the content is strctured in some way (e.g. "album track" and
"unreleased bonus tracks").

For reference here are a view other releases with similar DVDs:
http://musicbrainz.org/release/9ea8a851-d74b-427b-8af0-09d51c569010
http://musicbrainz.org/release/c123a5ed-6a0e-44d1-8a36-9898061c929a
http://musicbrainz.org/release/ca141d2a-e784-4e47-adfe-48d70e84fed1
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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[MeinDummy]

Side-note concerning the mastering AR: a re-mastered AR (or a re- attribute
to the existing mastering AR) are missing...



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Re: [mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[MeinDummy]

There is more like this. All ten of the earlier Depeche Mode albums were
re-released in a similar format.
 
Most of the corresponding MB releases have the SACD split into 2
tracklists/discs as I suggested but the DVDs are usually all-in-one.

Some of the DVDs have tracks in this order:
- documentary
- stereo recordings of the album tracks
- 5.1 recordings of the album tracks
- stereo recordings of the bonus live tracks
- 5.1 recordings of the bonus live tracks
- stereo recordings of the additional stereo-only bonus tracks
example:
https://musicbrainz.org/release/d4f4bbfb-2782-3134-9827-1fba77d000e1

I'd change that to:
3.) DVD stereo, album + bonus live + additional bonus = 17 tracks 
4.) DVD multichannel, album + bonus live = 14 tracks 
5.) DVD video, 1 track 




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[mb-style] How to enter hybrid SACD and DVD audio+video discs?

[MeinDummy]

Hi,

I was wondering how releases like http://www.discogs.com/release/540973
should be represented in MB.

Disc 1 is a hybrid SACD, i.e. there is a "regular" CD layer which can be
replayed in a standard CD drive and from which a DiscID can be generated.
The other layer contains the same audio (i.e. the same stereo mixes) and a
5.1 mix in SACD format.
Disc 2 is a DVD with a menu where you can choose between the album in stereo
or in 5.1, 3 videos (with stereo sound) or a photo gallery.

Currently it looks like this:
https://musicbrainz.org/release/d502300a-494d-42f0-a63c-b66581116f87/ 

My suggestion is to change this to a 5 media release:
1.) CD / SACD stereo, 12 tracks
2.) SACD multichannel, 12 tracks
3.) DVD stereo, 12 tracks
4.) DVD multichannel, 12 tracks
5.) DVD video, 3 tracks (or 4 including [photo gallery] ???)
The tracklists of 1 and 3 and of 2 and 4 would be identical.

BTW, stereo and 5.1 were mastered by different people in different studios.
That's why, I think we need mastering credits at medium level at least (or
allow them again on recording level if that's not possible).

Also BTW, part of this topic has already been discussed in the past but
there was no real conclusion:
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Hybrid-SACDs-td3885610.html

Cheers,

Christian (MD)



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