Re: webp file handling

[Tim Hill]

In article <20210224161918.gd7...@pepperfish.net>, Rob Kendrick
 wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 03:12:51PM +0000, Tim Hill wrote:
> > 
> > As discussed elsewhere, it's great to see that .webp files are
> > rendered by NetSurf but files dropped are ignored if they have the
> > correct (A66) RISC OS filetype.
> > 
> > (So I haven't added WebP files to mimemap yet and nor should you!)

> Try #5263.

#5265 by the time I got there (!). Thanks. Working correctly now.

I guess it's mimemap time! 

image/webp  WebPa66 .webp

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webp file handling

[Tim Hill]

As discussed elsewhere, it's great to see that .webp files are rendered
by NetSurf but files dropped are ignored if they have the correct (A66)
RISC OS filetype.

(So I haven't added WebP files to mimemap yet and nor should you!)

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Re: OL handling

[Tim Hill]

In article <866b6af458.harr...@bazleyfamily.co.uk>,
   Harriet Bazley  wrote:
> Netsurf doesn't seem to support HTML of the form
> 
> 
> 
> but always defaults to a sequential numerical list, whatever type/value
> the source specifies - are we all supposed to be styling list entries
> with CSS nowadays?

You can try. ;-)

value=n doesn't seem to work at all. (Deprecated in HTML4, reintroduced
HTML5)

CSS that works
list-style-type: circle
list-style-type: square

CSS that doesn't work and reverts to 1,2,3
list-style-type: upper-alpha 
list-style-type: lower-alpha 
list-style-type: upper-roman
list-style-type: lower-roman

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Re: Scrolling issues

[Tim Hill]

In article , Steve
Fryatt  wrote:

> The issue is that NetSurf's core has to render any frame furniture when
> a page requests it be drawn, and whilst it defers this to the GUI
> (IIRC), it's fairly non-trivial for the RISC OS front-end to use the
> standard desktop furniture.

> It's been a long time, but (again IIRC) I'm fairly sure that I
> concluded when I looked at this that the only way to get "standard"
> scrollbars would be to replicate the Wimp's rendering of the component
> bits within NetSurf's RISC OS front-end -- which, aside from being
> relatively complex, also took us into areas best described as "sparsely
> documented" and hence fragile if the OS developers change the way
> things work.

I just had a quick peek inside the RISC OS Wikipedia page. There is no
FRAME or IFRAME but it has the extra scrollbar. Its stylesheet defines
the BODY with 'overflow-y:scroll'. Any browser with window furniture
already in place should have that set on BODY by default, shouldn't it,
and ignore if it's set there again? Just a thought.

NetSurf also seems to ignore the principle of what overflow means (I.e.
'*if* the content overflows, do this') though that's less crucial. 

Test overflow-y:scroll

Hello World 
Hello World 
Hello World 


Unfortunately, it is also an inherited property as this short HTML page
demonstrates! Use it with care please Jimmy!

T

-- 
Tim Hill

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Re: Please test webp image format

[Tim Hill]

In article , Brian Howlett
 wrote:
> On 8 Dec, David Higton wrote:

> > In message <514e111f-108b-c4aa-b35b-081f9544d...@codethink.co.uk>
> > Michael Drake  wrote:

> >> Hello,
> >> 
> >> Recently we added the webp library to our SDK. NetSurf Builds from
> >> our CI should now have webp support.
> >> 
> >> So far we've only tested on Linux. Please could users of other
> >> platforms visit
> >> 
> >>https://developers.google.com/speed/webp/gallery1
> >> 
> >> and let us know if it's working?

> > Working correctly here: BBxM, RO 5.27 (28-Oct-19), NS CI#4947.  The
> > pairs of photos look identical to me.

> I had the wrong colours showing on this TiMachine yesterday, but just
> now with CI#4950 it works correctly.

Ditto Pi 3B+ RO 5.24

All looking splendid now. Good job.

-- 

Tim Hill
Webmaster, www.timil.com

websites : php : RISC OS

Re: Please test webp image format

[Tim Hill]

In article , Frederick
Bambrough  wrote:
> In message <1c52658a2840684728dce5b1fa248...@imap.plus.net> David Pitt
>   wrote:

> > On 2019-12-07 16:34, Geoffrey Baxendale wrote:
> > > In message  Peter Young
> > >wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On 7 Dec 2019  Michael Drake  wrote:
> > >> 
> > > > > Hello,

[Snip]

> > >> 
> > > Not here. (4945, RISC OS 5,27 on Titanium.)
> > > 
> > > (colours are wrong. Blue is orange, orange is blue, green is a cyan
> > > type colour.)
> > 
> > Not quite right here either.
> > 
> > Using NetSurf 4945.
> > 
> > The bad news is that there is colour transposition seen on RISC OS 5
> > on the Titaniun and RPi3B+, and OS4.02 on RPCEmu. Yellows appear as
> > blue and vice versa. Red and blue transposed, probably.
> > 
> > (Having to send via webmail, Plusnet won't let me reply by email.)

> Same colour issue here on Beagleboard -xM, RISC OS 5.27(01-Dec-19) &
> NetSurf CI #4945

I can confirm same colour issues on Pi3B+ with RO 5.24

-- 

Tim Hill
Webmaster, www.timil.com

websites : php : RISC OS

Re: "Warning from Netsurf: Unknown"

[Tim Hill]

In article , Jim Nagel
 wrote:
> Daniel Silverstone  wrote on 22 Oct:

> > On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 11:49:01 +0100, David Pitt wrote:
> >> [INFO netsurf] content/fetchers/curl.c:1189 fetch_curl_done: done
> >> http://www.dalsemi.com/datasheets/appindex.html [INFO netsurf]
> >> content/fetchers/curl.c:1232 fetch_curl_done: Unknown cURL response
> >> code 28

> > This code is CURLE_OPERATION_TIMEDOUT

> Could the error message be made more informative than just the one word
> "Unknown" ?

NS 3.9 correctly says "timeout was reached".

Re: Google and #spf

[Tim Hill]

In article <57f8148b3bd...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave 
wrote:
> In article <5e2d0df857@6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
>  wrote: [Snippy]

> > Have never found a way of programming Keystroke to do this.  If
> > anyone has succeeded, please export the relevant Keystroke Selection
> > file & share it.

> Must confess I've tried with Keystroke a lot of times but never
> succeeded.

The only way to keep the JS setting on screen as a button is to 
1. open choices
2. open content
3. minimise/put configuration on the iconbar
4. toggle JavaScript 
5. click Set with Adjust
6. goto 4

-- 

Tim Hill
Webmaster, www.timil.com

websites : php : RISC OS

Re: RISC OS NetSurf no longer responding to URI files

[Tim Hill]

In article <929902e457.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young
 wrote:
> Many thanks, Tim, for putting me on the right road.

My pleasure.

-- 

Tim Hill
Webmaster, www.timil.com

websites : php : RISC OS

Re: RISC OS NetSurf no longer responding to URI files

[Tim Hill]

In article , Peter Young
 wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2019  Daniel Silverstone  wrote:

> > On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 17:39:54 +0100, Peter Young wrote:
> >> Just to report that I can again run NetSurf URLs from NeXTBar and
> >> from MPro. Many thanks to whoever fixed this. I've been too busy to
> >> access the bug tracker, I'm afraid.

> > Unless I am very much mistaken, we have done literally nothing to
> > make that be fixed.  I imagine it must have been a local hiccough on
> > your system.

> I think it must be, and it's now back to not launching URLs from
> NeXTBar and MPro. However, nothing has changed in my system. It
> remains a mystery, and I have a work-round anyway.

AIUI when URI files are run, the URI module sends a wimp message so a
loaded app can intercept it and do with the file as it wishes or the
module uses the Open_URI system variables to determine what to do. 

In the case of URL files the filer does something similar. If no app has
intercepted a wimp message saying the file has been run (perhaps because
the application is not on the iconbar) the "run type" for that filetype
is examined and the appropriate action taken from that.

You can check the current settings in a command window (ctrl+f12); yours
will likely be slightly different.

*show *file*
...
File$Type_B28 : URL
...
File$Type_F91 : URI
...

*show *run*
...
Alias$@RunType_B28 : /SCSI::HardDisc4.$.Apps.!NetSurf.!Run -urlf %*0
...

*show *uri*
Alias$Open_URI_file : /SCSI::HardDisc4.$.Apps.!NetSurf.!Run -nowin
Alias$Open_URI_geo : SCSI::HardDisc4.$.Apps.!RiscOSM.!Run 
Alias$Open_URI_http : /SCSI::HardDisc4.$.Apps.!NetSurf.!Run -nowin
Alias$Open_URI_https : /SCSI::HardDisc4.$.Apps.!NetSurf.!Run -nowin
Alias$Open_URI_x-stronghelp : Run SCSI::HardDisc4.$.Apps.!StrongHlp.!Run

(Some apps "wrongly" set a run type for URI files. Apparently that's not
the way they should be handled)

If the system isn't working there are two possible problems.
1. something loaded is discarding the wimp messages, or
2. something which may not be loaded has (un-)set the system variables

Cure with:
1. Trial and error. Try quitting programs and retrying.
2. Find out which variable(s) is/are being 'broken' and use !Locate to
find the culprit obey file which is (un/re)setting it.

HTH

-- 
Tim Hill

Find an  event to attend at:
http://timil.com/riscos/calendar/
Mimemap and other stuff:
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Re: 3.8 breaks text on left on some sites

[Tim Hill]

In article <732441a757.br...@bhowlett.plus.net>, Brian Howlett
 wrote:
> On 19 Apr, Mayuresh  wrote:

> > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 07:34:03AM +0100, Peter Young wrote:
> >> Development version 3.9 (Dev CI #4572) on RISC OS makes a complete
> >> hash of this page.

> > Is that an issue with 3.8 for others also? Should it be logged as a
> > bug? Is downgrade to 3.7 the only solution right now?

> Well, as Peter says, if it's still happening in the latest development
> version, it's probably a bug, or maybe a piece of CSS or Javascript
> that isn't yet implemented.

> It displays the same with Javascript on or off.

That website appears to be generated by WordPress. Buckets of CSS and
gallons of JQuery.

I find the only way to deal with such pages in NetSurf is to export them
as text.

-- 
Tim Hill

Find an  event to attend at:
http://timil.com/riscos/calendar/
Mimemap and other stuff:
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Re: Duktape ECMA/Java-script support

[Tim Hill]

In article <024701d4cfea$42fc87d0$c8f59770$@iinet.net.au>, Walter
Zambotti  wrote:
> It is my conclusion that there would be very few javascript enabled
> sites that the current implantation of NS3.9 could or would actually
> render.

This could be why NetSurf arrives out-of-the-box with JavaScript disabled.

I only turn its JS on when someone says "look at this" but otherwise
mostly surf the external net on Windoze or Android. NetSurf is only
really of any use on RISC OS related sites where authors are (/ought to
be) aware of its shortcomings.

Even then (looking at ROOL) including JS reliant PayPal transactions
brings any attempt at NetSurf compatibility crashing down.

-- 

Tim Hill
Webmaster

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: SVG

[Tim Hill]

In article <5789df88f8li...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
 wrote:
> In article <5789dcef69...@timil.com>, Tim Hill  wrote:
> > > It's also curious tha the text is truncated on the left margin as
> > > if CSS left-margin has a negative value.

> > You can try and decipher their CSS here:
> > https://www.electronics-notes.com/parts/css/style.complete.min.css?go=6

> > (The page in NetSurf is blank. Press f8 then use search and replace
> > to change the } into }+newline and change the wrapwidth to 1024.)

> Yes, I got that and had a quick look. Not an easy page to understand
> without a lot of processing.

Looking at it using Chrome Dev's "Inspect" the CSS is best described as a
rat's nest.

> > There's a width of 1270px in there which may be responsible but I
> > didn't cross-refer all the style and whatnot.

> It cannot be a negative left-margin as negative values aren't allowed.

> However - might Metsurf be calculating the margin and ending up with a
> negative result?

I didn't look in detail after I saw "width:1270px;". 
If it contains such fixed widths and if centred in a narrower window it
would extend too far left and right offscreen. Widening the NetSurf
window brings it into view. If the window is already as wide as your
monitor, reducing the page to 80% zoom would probably bring it on screen.

-- 
Tim Hill

Find an  event to attend at:
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Mimemap and other stuff:
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Re: SVG

[Tim Hill]

In article <5789d3c2d1li...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
 wrote:
> How far has SVG rendering got?

> sVGs are not common yet, but I met a page with some prsent, which don't
> display properly:

> https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/antennas-propagation/dipole-antenna/folded-dipole.php

> It's also curious tha the text is truncated on the left margin as if
> CSS left-margin has a negative value.

You can try and decipher their CSS here:
https://www.electronics-notes.com/parts/css/style.complete.min.css?go=6

(The page in NetSurf is blank. Press f8 then use search and replace to
change the } into }+newline and change the wrapwidth to 1024.)

There's a width of 1270px in there which may be responsible but I didn't
cross-refer all the style and whatnot.

-- 
Tim Hill

Find an  event to attend at:
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Mimemap and other stuff:
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Re: mailto:

[Tim Hill]

In article <57852acb56li...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
 wrote:
> Recent Netsurf seems to have a problem with indirect mailto: urls.


> e.g http://www.burwellness.co.uk/index.html In the body there are two
> email buttons. These call a cgi program which (if the calling button
> has sent a correct CheckVar) returns the relevant URL in the form
> mailto:rich...@torrens.org

NetSurf works as expected if you type a mailto: into the URL bar so it
not working from an indirect script seems odd, doesn't it?

> It is this indirect URL which now does not work. It's an anti-spam
> system I have used for years and I have only recenly noticed it failing.

Curious, I have just thrown together a PHP script here using those same
forms and a method which works in Chrome using header() and it too fails
with NetSurf.  I found other postings with similar problems and one
suggested using the Javascript alternative to header() which works in
Chrome, but guess what NetSurf makes of that!! It works if Javascript is
enabled!!! Inform the gentlemen of the press

www.timil.com/temp/email-addy.php

to download that script:

www.timil.com/temp/dl-email-addy.php

HTH

T

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Tim Hill

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Mimemap and other stuff:
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Re: GMail in Netsurf 3.9

[Tim Hill]

In article , Harriet Bazley
 wrote:
> I managed to restore access by copying across the Cookies file from the
> other computer again, but that cookie will presumably eventually expire
> too.   :-(

Google seem to be reorganising to cope with the soon-to-happen demise of
Google+

Re: Gmail In Netsurf 3.9

[Tim Hill]

In article , Harriet Bazley
 wrote:
> On 21 Jan 2019 as I do recall, Tim Hill  wrote:

> [snip]


> > It is said Messenger Pro can access a Gmail account with its IMAP
> > capabilities, should you ever need a non-browser RISC OS + Gmail
> > solution in a pinch.
> >
> Yes, I was wondering about that - I had a nasty feeling you needed to
> be logged in first (and probably in non-basic HTML mode) in order to
> obtain the requisite details

Log in to enable IMAP then configure your email client...

https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7126229?hl=en

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Tim Hill

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Mimemap and other stuff:
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Re: Gmail In Netsurf 3.9

[Tim Hill]

In article <8992087a57.harr...@blueyonder.co.uk>, Harriet Bazley
 wrote:
> On 21 Jan 2019 as I do recall, Harriet Bazley  wrote:


> [snip]

> >  having logged out of my Gmail account, 

[Snip]

> I've managed to log myself in again for the moment by copying across
> the entire Cookies file from a copy of Netsurf on another machine that
> was still logged-in, but it's a rather disturbing prospect that if I'm
> ever logged out at any point in the future, that will be it.   :-(

It is said Messenger Pro can access a Gmail account with its IMAP
capabilities, should you ever need a non-browser RISC OS + Gmail solution
in a pinch.

-- 
Tim Hill

Find an  event to attend at:
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Mimemap and other stuff:
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Re: the "up" button misbehaveth

[Tim Hill]

In article <1ddef44a57@6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
 wrote:
> The "up" button 

[Snip]

> It deletes the tail of the URL back to a "/", and a second click back
> to the next "/", etc.

> However, its behaviour has been a bit wonky in recent versions of
> Netsurf. Sometimes the truncation is back to the middle of something,
> rather than back to a "/".

> I'm using #4451 on ArmX6 Ro 5.25 and Armini(Beagle) 5.22, but this
> misbehaviour began more than a year ago and unforch I can't say exactly
> which #.

> Anyone see the same?

Not a feature I use to be fair so hadn't noticed this is broken in #4317

http://timil.com/riscos/calendar/

UP to

http://timil.com/riscos/

which (correctly) redirects to

http://timil.com/riscos/index/

UP to

403 error

Then repeated use of UP results in partial edits of the URL, as you say.

Huh? That should have been a reload, after it should have encountered the
same redirect again. Just tried and #4085, #3403 have the same problem.

A link on a page to "../" or the delete key in the address bar both work.

-- 
Tim Hill

Find an  event to attend at:
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Mimemap and other stuff:
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Re: Missing images

[Tim Hill]

In article , Richard Porter
 wrote:
> Hi all, I've got a strange problem on one of my sites. On
> http://www.mmpa.org.uk/ all of the gif images are missing, including
> the yellow navigation buttons at the top. If you go to other pages the
> "home" and "News" buttons are present.

[Snip]

Whenever images don't show, I always suspect the Content option 'hide
advertisements' and you do have all those GIFs in a sub directory called
'images'. Try the option off if it's on and if that works, use a more
cryptic directory name than 'images'.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: launching a PDF from a link

[Tim Hill]

In article <48a3670f57.ga...@wra1th.plus.com>, Gavin Wraith
 wrote:
> But maybe the whole point of what you are looking for is that it acts
> automatically without the user having to start it?

Yes, I think that was Jim's desire: click on a link to a PDF on a webpage
and it opens in your default PDF viewer without the save-drag &
double-click.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: launching a PDF from a link

[Tim Hill]

In article , Richard Porter
 wrote:
> On 28 Jun 2018 Jim Nagel  wrote:

> > When you click the link for a Jpeg (or various other types of file),
> > the file opens immediately.  Why does PDF behave differently?  What
> > is the mechanism involved?

> I think that offering a save dialogue is the norm. Netsurf processes
> JPEG, GIF and PNG files itself, plus html and text of course, so
> there's no need to save them.

It's easy to think NetSurf really ought to have to option to Filer_Run
any file it doesn't understand after downloading it but it doesn't; it 
leaves you to do that which is fine up to a point but a shame because it
prevents sound and video playing from a link, just as it makes you open
your downloaded PDFs 'manually'. 

I'm expecting to find a utility somewhere which will monitor a specific
folder and filer_run anything saved there but having no luck so far.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: date in search results

[Tim Hill]

On 31 Mar, t...@timil.com wrote:
> In article <8b087de156.j...@rickman.argonet..co.uk>, John Rickman
> <rick...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <56cb6af6b5...@timil.com> Tim Hill <t...@timil.com> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > The option which allowed you to specify a date range has been removed.

> They've removed it from there now too?

> Isn't that typical?. You have to perform a search and then modify it,
> at least, in other browsers:

> 1. make a google search.

> 2. on the results page look for "Tools"

> 3. now select 'Any time' -> Custom range, pick your dates.

> So much for 'advanced' search! Easier to make a simple one and change
> it.

> But that doesn't help NetSurf users, unfortunately.

P.S. Being curious, I have just been reading about the search parameter
'daterange' and the example given by Google is if you want to examine
documents with a modification date in a range you would search for

parrot daterange:2008-08-01..2008-12-24

ie.

http://google.com/search?q=parrot+daterange:2008-08-01..2008-12-24

But it doesn't seem to work. It's just gets your RISC OS box blocked from
making Google searches and you can't click on the message response
proving you're a human. Using their own example. Duh.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Page which doed not display properly

[Tim Hill]

In article <df0993d556@6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> Would be nice to add a colour for ...  to the HTML
> mode in StrongEd so that JS would immediately jump out at you in a
> page where "the html is terrible to decipher".

A workaround - to make your own scripts stand out - is to put them in
HTML comments per ye olde stylee:


<!--
document.write("Happy Mother's Day!");
-->


With the luxury of a PC at my elbow, I tend to throw recalcitrant pages
at it rather than try and decipher them. WYSIWYG page design tools, such
as WordPress used to construct Richard's page or online tools such as Wix
often produce a mass of unformatted garbage; even though this page could
be created with a half-dozen DIVs, the 'info panel' and 'menu' both
require either CSS, JS or both that NetSurf cannot render.

Such a page also fails google's mobile test. Quelle surprise.

> I think somebody is working to update that mode but I can't remember
> who.  Is it you, Tim?

Not me, no, sorry.

T

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Page which doed not display properly

[Tim Hill]

In article <56d59185celi...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
<li...@torrens.org> wrote:

[Snip]

> The page still does not display properly - so as I said, it is not a
> J/S thing!

If you say so.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Page which doed not display properly

[Tim Hill]

In article <56d587af09li...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
<li...@torrens.org> wrote:
> http://www.magheragenealogy.org/

> Most of of the page's text does not display in Netsurf.

> It is not a J/S thing. But the html is terrible to decipher!

It is. The >26  tags would beg to differ.

The best result from a page like that? 
Menu > Page > Export > Text

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: linking to root of website, not root of drive

[Tim Hill]

[Email copy of news posting to comp.sys.acorn.misc]

Posted in Netsurf users, as it follows up a question and in c.s.a.misc
because it's not NetSurf specific. Please reply in Usenet.

In article <6c94decc56.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>, Richard Porter
<r...@minijem.plus.com> wrote:
> On 19 Feb 2018 Jim Nagel  wrote:

> > Is there a way around this?  Is there some setting I would need to
> > make in Netsurf to define what I mean by "/" as root?  (Presumably
> > there is such a setting in my ISP's software, for I am not being
> > taken to the root of their drive!)

> I have the same problem. I'm running WebJames with its root directory
> as the directory containing my web sites. That means that "/" on the
> local site takes me back to the top level and not the root of the site
> I want.

I was just having a similar problem to Jim's original and have a solution
wrt setting the BASE tag depending on server, local or distant. The same
technique could of course be applied to just the style sheet location, or
whatever. It uses PHP but don't let that put you off.

Let's imagine the URL of the distant server you upload to is
http://domain.tld/
and your local WebJames copy is here
http://localhost/domain/

First of all, save this fragment of php as file 'pathname/php' and/or
'pathname.php' in both locations:

Then run it from your browser:
http://domain.tld/pathname.php
and
http://localhost/domain/pathname.php

You will see something like 
Pathname = /ISPname/users/8/4/s112113/htdocs
and
Pathname = /Sunfish::Web_Sites.$/domain

(Or, at least, that's what I see: my WebJames serves sites stored on a
NAS accessed with Sunfish)

Once you know a string to differentiate the location of where your file
is running, this would then work in the HEAD of your index.php file, or
whatever, in place of the BASE tag:

http://domain.tld/;;
   } else {
   $base ="http://localhost/domain/;;
   }
  print("\n");
?>

If your WebJames server has an external URL, use that in place of
localhost, obviously.

HTH

(Replies in c.s.a.misc please; this is OT for NetSurf-Users.)

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: displaying a nested list

[Tim Hill]

In article <ca751fd356@6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Any chance that Netsurf could be made to display a nested list, please?

> Many designers seem to like using this feature for menus -- here's an
> example:   http://stjohns-glastonbury.org.uk All three of the menu
> items here (About, Heritage, More...) are meant to produce a dropdown
> of several sub-items.

Dropdown menus created by CSS styled lists relying on 'hover' are a thing
NetSurf does not support.  No JavaScript is required for these.

Here are some more that don't work: www.youngtheatre.co.uk

It may be worth noting that such drop-downs don't work well on mobile
platforms either because you can't 'hover' easily so your solution of
providing fall-back from the primary menu items with alternate routes is
essential.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: mailto:

[Tim Hill]

In article <3d20e8cc56.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young
<pnyo...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> It works here with a plain email address. See on
> http://www.cheltglosntc.btck.co.uk/Walkinggroup where clicking my
> email address opens an email in MPro correctly. 

Yes, that's a plain vanilla mailto: link which some people think gifts
your address to spammers. Do you receive lots of spam?

> I realise that not
> everyone is keen on having their email addresses on websites, but this
> is the only way it can be done on this site. I wouldn't know a cgi-bin
> if in bit me.

Coincidentally, I have just been adding 'munge' to
http://timil.com/riscos and IME this conversion of a mailto link into
entities seems enough to prevent harvesting by spammers. Or the ones that
do are so useless it doesn't even reach me!

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: linking to root of website, not root of drive

[Tim Hill]

In article <56ccec687fjoh...@ukgateway.net>, John Williams
 wrote:

[Snip]

> PS and yes, it is actually RISC OS, not RiscOS with its pseudo
> camel-case. Editor should have spotted that one!

The confusion of RiscPC and RISC OS is not a new phenomenon
just as WebJames is often called Webjames.

How about "doubleclicking" Vs double-clicking?

None of the meaning is lost in what was written and while I too like to
get things OCD-right, I think we can leave enforcement to trademark
owners!

Where's that old spelling I used to use in these cases. Oh yes!

The new Welsh operating system, rhisck/oH.eSs

Re: linking to root of website, not root of drive

[Tim Hill]

In article <f4f7e9cc56@6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:

[Snipped]

> (Begs the question:  why does RiscOS actually bother having a specific
> filetype for a CSS file?  

You don't need to give your HTML or CSS files an extension with WebJames.
It seems to use the filetype to create the MIME data.

Conversely, files with no .ext on an Apache server seem to be treated as
text and sent to the browser. I rely on this with 
http://timil.com/riscos/mimemap/mimemap

These are identical (ancient) files:
Apache (no .ext)
http://timil.com/links and 
WebJames (no .ext but correct HTML RISC OS filetype)
http://dev.timil.com/timil.com/links

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: linking to root of website, not root of drive

[Tim Hill]

In article <92f5dfcc56@6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Richard Porter  wrote on 19 Feb:
> > ... I don't think your ISP's software comes into it unless your ISP
> > is also your hosting company.

> Sorry: I used the wrong term.  I did mean the hosting company.

No, you didn't. Hosting is an internet service provided by an ISP, a
"Hosting ISP". It may not provide (your) Internet Access, which is just
ONE of the things an ISP may do. One of them. Some ISPs do not provide
internet connections at all; perhaps only email.

ISP should not be seen as synonymous with an "Access provider ISP".

I have seen the press making this mistake all the time. Amazing how it
has now become received wisdom.

Even Wikipedia gets this right.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: linking to root of website, not root of drive

[Tim Hill]

In article <20180219154920.gj3...@platypus.pepperfish.net>, Rob Kendrick
<r...@netsurf-browser.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 03:46:41PM +, Jim Nagel wrote:
> >   - Netsurf displays the pages served up via Webjames perfectly,
> > except that it is NOT obeying the stylesheet (which is  /2018.css )
> > even though the Webjames log records a GET success for the CSS file
> > just as it did for the logo and paper and favicon. - Yet when Netsurf
> > fetches the identical page from my ISP's server, it DOES obey the
> > CSS.

> Complete guess: is your CSS source file set to the CSS type, or plain
> text type?  I'm not sure how NetSurf reacts to CSS files served with an
> appropriate Content-Type header.

Also, are you fetching your CSS with a suffix of ?v=1 or something?
Browsers are notorious for not fetching CSS files if they think they
don't need a new one, even if it's changed. Putting a fake variable on
the end seems to force a fetch.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

linking to root of website, not root of drive

[Tim Hill]

In article <9f33c3cc56@6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

>2018.css   or ../2018.css   or ../../2018.css   etc

[Snip]

> Is there a way around this?  

[Snip]

I'm going to run away and hide after writing this:

1. Apart from files in the root, link them all with ../ and copy the css
file into every directory except the last in each branch using an obey
file which you keep in the root so you can update them if you make a
change to the master. Yeah, okay, those people screaming at the back,
maybe not if you have hundreds of directories, or

2. Re-organise - flatten - your site so that this isn't a problem, or 

3. Learn PHP. ;-)  This can read the current directory of the script/page
that's running and depending on the host it finds, sets either
"[nothing]" or "/[extra path]" as the value of a path which prefixes
"/Style.css?v=1"

A copy of the script:
http://timil.com/riscos/_to-do/css_slash.txt

Output of the script from my servers:
Distant:
http://timil.com/riscos/_to-do/css_slash.php
Local:
http://87.127.161.109/timil.com/riscos/_to-do/css_slash.php

You'll need to change the value of the first variable to the first eight
letters of the string returned as "current path" from your local server
and also the second variable, which is the name of the local folder
containing you web site, assuming it's in your server's root. You can see
timil.com is kept locally in a folder with the same name as its proper
site's URL.

Then replace your CSS sheet  with everything between  and
 in the script on every page, and, oh, you'll also have to change
the name of your files from /htm to /php and make sure your
provider supports PHP and also that you're running a server with PHP
(such as WebJames+PHP). 

There. No changes to servers required.   ;-)

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: date in search results

[Tim Hill]

In article <322755cb56.j...@rickman.argonet..co.uk>, John Rickman
<rick...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <8d6444cb56@6.abbeypress.net> Jim Nagel
>   <nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:

> > What causes Google (or other searchers) to display (or not display) a
> > DATE in search results?

Luck. And a date at the top of the page, as a letter would have. 

[Snip]

> Google is reluctant to return pages with old data. In the beginning
> Google worked by trying to answer queries. Now it uses every query as
> an excuse to present pages that can be monetised. 

Another leg on that conspiratorial stool: is it a good idea to put Google
Ads on your own pages because Google will favour them? (But make sure you
use an ad blocker yourself!)

[Snip]

> In the advanced serch options Google used to have an option to search
> by a range of dates. This has been removed from the mobile a desktop
> versions.

#FakeNews. ;-)   It is still on desktops.

www.google.com/advanced_search

It's the eighth parameter on that page.

> Who is likely to want to pay for advert to pop up on a page that was
> last updated a long time ago?

Advertising placement doesn't work like that. The advert is grabbed from
a pool as the page is being viewed; it's  value is on being viewed now,
and what words it contains, not necessarily how old it may be. 

It's easy to fake those dates anyway. Only things like
http://web.archive.org/ give a true idea of page's age as it keeps a note
of when things are fetched.

There is another huge factor which has pushed many older pages further
down all search results. Mobile compatibility. Even if your content is
not specifically expecting mobile users (e.g. any RISC OS specific site!)
your web pages won't appear high in the results if they don't work on a
phone against pages that do. This is because mobile use of the web
overtook desktops in November 2016 and Google changed their policy to
prioritise mobile-friendly content.

(Yes, perhaps it is a bit odd. Desktop search results have non-mobile
content 'suppressed' even though a desktop user isn't looking for mobile
content.) 

Your mention of YouTube is illustrative. It works on every size of
display; most old websites don't. YT is also Google's own site, obviously.

For registered webmasters, Google search helpfully displays your own page
results with "This page is not mobile friendly" if that applies. (Too
bloody often, tbh).

I'd like to think all RISC OS webmasters are feeding their sites into
http://search.google.com/test/mobile-friendly/  and gradually fixing this
but they are obviously not(!). However, with no serious mobile-friendly
competition, there is little incentive for RISC OS specific web sites to
improve. Perhaps young people will, in frustration, write their own
mobile-friendly RISC OS websites. :-o

I know from personal experience that (e.g.) a site which uses large fixed
widths for layout or - perish the thought - tables for non-tabular
information, or even just large images, iframes, frames or small buttons
too close together, it is a whole lot of fun trying to make content work 
and look okay on both an iPhone 5 with a 320px wide screen and a
3840x2160 4K display.

T

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: date in search results

[Tim Hill]

In article <8d6444cb56@6.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> What causes Google (or other searchers) to display (or not display) a
> DATE in search results?

> For instance, search for "Terran site:iconbar.com" -- some of the
> items listed show a date and some don't.

Those with a date seem to have it in the page following the word
"updated" as many news stories do elsewhere. I can't say that would be of
much use to many of my pages, but gives me an idea.

> If I ran the world, *every* item would show a date.  So often one
> wants current information, not waste time on stuff from 2001.  But
> sometimes historical stuff is indeed what is sought.

A pity there is no standard for a document's date or last revision date,
isn't it?

We should be using something like a meta tag with name 'published' or
'revised'; perhaps 'updated'. But whatever you use, it needs to appear in
the body of a page for a search engine to take notice.

Unfortunately, the way these dates are grabbed off a page are not
particularly useful in some circumstances.

> So state date.  I've long wondered what the mechanism is.

A search result dates this page as 25th July 1982, showing that the date
is grabbed off the page without intelligence: it demonstrates only that
such dates are not particularly useful.

www.youngtheatre.co.uk/archive/harrow/productions.php

There are different publication and build dates in the meta tags which
tells me I need to look into this more, thanks for bringing it up.

I'm going to add "updated: [date]" to my RISC OS page(s) which are
currently undergoing a re-vamp.Done. (~24 pages changed with one edit
to read and 'print' the last modification date of the relevant part of
the page. Got to love PHP.)

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: CSS for a RiscOS font and button

[Tim Hill]

In article <ccf2bbaf-2c2c-4b4a-cc6e-8010dc68a...@codethink.co.uk>,
   Michael Drake <michael.dr...@codethink.co.uk> wrote:


> On 09/02/18 14:56, Jim Nagel wrote:

> > In CSS, is it possible to specify a particular RiscOS font?

> No, NetSurf only supports the generic font families.

This is a great tool for helping choose which generic font family.
https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/playit.asp?filename=playcss_font-family 
but not in NetSurf for presumably Javascript reasons.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Validation

[Tim Hill]

In article <56abf2cfb6li...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
<li...@torrens.org> wrote:

> Thhanks - I can't have dug dseep enough. But what a pain - I extract
> URLs from NetSurf's URL bar using !Transfer2. It of course picks up the
> unglyphed version.

Indeed, I am someone who will often S & for  in a webpage when the
validator complains about them. It has to be an attended S though!

Transfer2? Why not just drag the URL into your editor?

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Validation

[Tim Hill]

In article <56abea205fli...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
<li...@torrens.org> wrote:
> I was trying to validate an html page using w3c validator. I could not!

> The reason was that the page contains lots of links to Google searches
> etc. e.g.  href="http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en=hp=ISO-8859-1=omeprazole+causes+bile+reflux=Google+Search;>

> The validator complains about the & in there - it wants  but the
> link with that in won't work.

No,  won't work from your editor. It will work only in the Browser.

The four amp version of the link above will be
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=ensource=hpie=ISO-8859-1q=omeprazole+causes+bile+refluxbtnG=Google+Search

And, buried in HTML, it works fine. It doesn't work in Pluto or StrongED
though, so don't expect it to. They are happy with '&' and don't
translate the ''s as a browser does/has to.

> So is this a fault in the validator - or something which should be
> accomodated in NetSurf?

It's working just as it should. Your example elsewhere had a typo.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Image/text alignment

[Tim Hill]

In article <56aa42426cli...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
<li...@torrens.org> wrote:
> I have been trying to get some .png images aligned with text using CSS.
> Is there yet a way to do so in Netsurf?

[Snip]

There doesn't seem to be, except with table cells as they say.

As flex containers aren't implemented in NetSurf I tried for a while to
create a vertical-aligning non-flex div in a NS specific style sheet. I
gave it up as impossible but would be happy to be proved wrong.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Survey form

[Tim Hill]

In article <000693bf.01e9b490a...@smtp.freeola.net>, Peter Slegg
<p.sl...@scubadivers.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi,

> I was sent a survey form to fill in.

> 1a is a mandatory question but it is not being rendered in Netsurf.
> (Atari 4258).

> This is the  section:

>   
> style="display: inline;">1a. Your main vehicle fuel?

[Snip]

> I don't know if this is bad html or a NS issue but it seems to be the
> fb_cond_applied  that causes it not to display.


The CSS definitions for body, div, label, fb-item, fb-side-by-side,
fb-50-item-column, fb-grouplabel or item82_label_0 could be the problem
too. They could be in the files header or there referenced in a LINKed
CSS file. Or several.

It's arguably easier to open the page in Chrome on a PC for two reasons:
1. the page will render (!)
2. right click an object and 'Inspect' it. It will show you all the CSS
which applies to that object and where its definitions came from.

Having identified the CSS which applies, you could then construct an
experimental page with only the html you quoted and the relevant styles
defined, commenting them out one at a time may then reveal the culprit
for a bug report.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: URL lengths

[Tim Hill]

In article <bb00dfa256.harr...@blueyonder.co.uk>, Harriet Bazley
<li...@bazleyfamily.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28 Nov 2017 as I do recall, Daniel Silverstone  wrote:

> > On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 18:08:46 +, John Williams wrote:
> > > What is the maximum URL length (including POST data) that NetSurf
> > > can handle?
> >
> > I don't believe we limit URL length per-se, though they get interned
> > and as such four gigabytes per URL is probably the absolute limit. 
> > In addition, POST data is nominally unlimited though I believe we
> > have a similar four gigabyte limit.

> I had an error today from Netsurf, reporting that a URL was too long to
> display (although it seemed to work).

I just can't believe that a URL can contain 33% more letters than the
King James Bible's 3,116,480.

"four gigabytes per URL"

LOL

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: list just quiet, or am I still cut off?

[Tim Hill]

In article <6c9e4e9956@abbeypress.net>,
   Jim Nagel <nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> The last item delivered to me from this list was Dave Higton's, dated 
> Nov07 at 20:56.

> I understood that the firewall block of Netsurf traffic (a "port 
> flooed") that had somehow come into being at my mail server had been 
> cleared on Nov07 at 17:31.

> So have there been 0 postings to this list since Nov07 20:56, or has 
> some new blockage come into being?

> I shall now see whether I receive my own post.

I can see eight postings dated 8 Nov. Message IDs are

<20171108112311.gg13...@platypus.pepperfish.net>
<d16f6b19706a9cad2b9edde199d5d...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
<d492fd9756.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>
<5697c374a7li...@torrens.org>
<5697cbebe8li...@torrens.org>
<5697d25908...@timil.com>
<5697c81778...@timil.com>
<5697fb898ccvj...@waitrose.com>

bcc abbeypress

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Pane scrolling and searching

[Tim Hill]

In article <5697cbebe8li...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
<li...@torrens.org> wrote:
> In article <5697c374a7li...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
><li...@torrens.org> wrote:
> > http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F207018

> Oops! URL should have been
> http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/a?_ref=10

> "Anglian" occurs within first and second panes.

> Sorry!

> > is an odd page - it has 6 lists within panes.

The technical bit: those 'panes' are DIVs which use CSS to have scroll
bars and whatnot. They're neither frames nor iframes and the content is
in the page delivered to the browser, not loaded from discreet files. as
(i)frames would be. Not all CSS is fully implemented in NetSurf and the
search doesn't seem to cope with scrolling through a DIV whose content
overflows.

> > I was searching for "Anglian" within the window and there were
> > several occurrences. But as these are within the panes it is
> > extremely difficult to know where they are!

Not ideal but in cases like this, press f8 and search the source. It's
laid out quite well (unlike the impenetrable garbage produced by e.g Wix)
so obvious which link relates to what. You can then cut and paste the end
of the relative link in place of the 'a?_ref=10'

After f8, using search in your editor one of the "anglia" hits is in this
line: [angle braces replaced with regular here]

(a href="/details/c/F201076")East Anglia Territorial, Reserve Forces and
Cadets Association(/a)

The URL in NetSurf
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/a?_ref=10
is easily changed to
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F201076

HTH

T

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Pane srolling and searching

[Tim Hill]

In article <5697c374a7li...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
<li...@torrens.org> wrote:
> http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F207018 is an odd
> page - it has 6 lists within panes.

Are you sure that's the correct URL? . . . 

> I was searching for "Anglian" within the window and there were several
> occurrences. But as these are within the panes it is extremely
> difficult to know where they are!

. . . because there is no instance of the word Anglian I can see.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: problem with Mailman or is it just me?

[Tim Hill]

(bcc to JN)
In article <a87cd39656@abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> I havent received any messages from the Netsurf list since Oct26 --
> other than two odd ones which DID arrive (my own on Nov02, Geoffrey
> Baxendale on Nov03).

> Others have told me that messages DO arrive to them, including another
> one or two that I myself posted.

> I have tried fetching my mail using both Netfetch 5 (which has
> introduced some form of DMARC) and the older Netfetch 3.66; no joy.


> https://listmaster.pepperfish.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsurf-users-netsurf-browser.org
> I went to the Netsurf-users Info Page and subscribed using a different
> address (a valid one), but it responds: "You must supply a valid email
> address."

I would guess that the newsletter site is doing a reverse look-up of your
email address and, just as the routing failed as set out in Message with
ID: <20171105113126.gw7...@platypus.pepperfish.net> it is failing to get
the right response from your email service's server. No response means
invalid address, apparently.

But, hey, I guess you didn't see that or receive the direct copy so I'm
probably wasting my time.

[Snip]

I think I'd be speaking to my ISP and ask them if changing ISP is the
only cure.

If you don't get the bcc of this maillist article I would definitely
change ISPs.  ;-D

T

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Page causes crash

[Tim Hill]

In article <56932513adli...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
<li...@torrens.org> wrote:

[Snip]

> I have found a page which seems to cause this fairly reliably:
> http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/water-vole-hole.html

> Does this happen to anyone else? RO 5.23 (29-Jun-16) NS 3.8 (Dev CI
> #4238) and earlier versions for some time.

It opens here on both Iyonix 5.18 and ROSPi 5.21 with #4085  (Cute!)

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Page layout

[Tim Hill]

In article <480a239156@abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Richard Torrens (lists) wrote on 26 Oct:
> > ... screen shot at http://photos.torrens.org/wv.jpeg NetSurf is
> > correctly using the  option but these don't work
> > properly. This on ARMX6 with  NS 3.7 (Dev CI #4207)

> Here on #4204 I can't get the Contacts page that you show in the
> screenshot.  You must have got a dropdown from the "About us" button
> (or somewhere) that I don't get here.

A bit behind the curve version-wise I can reach that page on #4085 with
Javascript off and by selecting 'contact us' from the 'menu' which
overlays the content. Ditto the other links.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Page layout

[Tim Hill]

In article <56911bda0fli...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
<li...@torrens.org> wrote:
> In article <56909be808li...@torrens.org>, Richard Torrens (lists)
><li...@torrens.org> wrote:
> > I suspect the developers don't need more examples of pages that don't
> > layout properly? But in case they do, try

> > http://watervoles.com

> The respnses here make me think others are not seeing the same thing,
> so there is a screen shot at http://photos.torrens.org/wv.jpeg

> NetSurf is correctly using the  option but these don't
> work properly.

Yes, with Javascript 'off' this is true. The reason why that list of
links has appeared in such a daft position is simply because the
 has no style or class associated with it so it appears in
the current position, top-left of the current container. Its links do at
least work.

Perhaps this alteration by the site's author would help:


('fixed' places things relative to window instead of being in the current
container)

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Page layout

[Tim Hill]

In article <569104a7acbrian.jord...@btinternet.com>, Brian Jordan
<brian.jord...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In article <5690f953cd...@timil.com>, Tim Hill <t...@timil.com> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > It's great example of a page which uses Javascript to no advantage
> > but even if hover-and-drop menus are implemented with only CSS they
> > don't work in NetSurf either.  :-(

> Yeah. I spent ages some time back trying to get to the bottom of why I
> couldn't get some hover-and-drop CSS code to work. The reason was that
> I was using RISC OS to develop sites, mainly because of StrongED and
> the command line access to HTML Tidy, but then I was testing the code
> on Netsurf. I continue to use RISC OS to write web stuff but these days
> always test it in Chrome on the other side.

As do I, Brian. Though without HTMLtidy as these days most pages involve
being constructed with PHP. I still try to make things NetSurf usable but
it is falling behind wrt what can be achieved on even the cheapest phone
or tablet. Corners, shadows, hover, to name but a few.

Thankfully, it's easy to have a NetSurf only CSS file which provides
alternatives to flex containers and suchlike but this often needs more
than HTML in order to read the browser string and take the appropriate
action.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Page layout

[Tim Hill]

In article <8bd1b19056@abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Richard Torrens (lists) wrote on 25 Oct:
> > I suspect the developers don't need more examples of pages that don't
> > lay out properly? But in case they do, try http://watervoles.com

> Home page and some others look OK here (Netsurf #4204), but some of
> the menu dropdowns require Javascript.

It's great example of a page which uses Javascript to no advantage but
even if hover-and-drop menus are implemented with only CSS they don't
work in NetSurf either.  :-(

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: LibCSS: Flexbox property support review

[Tim Hill]

In article <03eccc20-da08-a0f8-54e8-47abe8241...@codethink.co.uk>,
   Michael Drake <michael.dr...@codethink.co.uk> wrote:


> On 30/09/17 21:05, Tim Hill wrote:
> > In article <0a012258-3662-78c0-93ca-5dac0982b...@codethink.co.uk>,
> > Michael Drake <t...@netsurf-browser.org> wrote:

> > This is great news even though I suspect you didn't mean to post it
> > to 'users' :).

> Yes, I meant to send it to the dev list, sorry.

> This work adds handling of flexbox properties to LibCSS, but there has
> currently been no work to implement the Flexbox layout algorithms in
> NetSurf.

> We only change version numbers when we do a release.

> Cheers,

Thanks for the clarifications.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: LibCSS: Flexbox property support review

[Tim Hill]

In article <0a012258-3662-78c0-93ca-5dac0982b...@codethink.co.uk>,
   Michael Drake <t...@netsurf-browser.org> wrote:
> Hello,

> This is a review of the lcneves/flexbox-tidy branch.

[Snip]

This is great news even though I suspect you didn't mean to post it to
'users' :).

I use flex containers a lot to allow blobs of content to flow to fit
mobile to desktop sizes and I became so wound up by NetSurf's inability
to render flex on my own screen, I implemented browser detection and you
can guess what netsurf-style/css is for: it uses display:inline-block
instead of display:flex and while that does the job after a fashion, it's
not quite as pretty. No vertical alignment and no 'intelligent'
distribution across the page.

Will my browser detection please be able to notice a version number
change when flex is added? Otherwise NetSurf users (okay, probably only
me) will be stuck with inline blocks.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

NetSurf browser detection

[Tim Hill]

Readers may be familiar with the feedback which drove me to make special
dispensation for NetSurf users on the RISC OS Events Calendar at
www.timil.com/riscos/calendar   ;o)

Well, I have succumbed to some moaning of my own. The lack of support for
CSS flex containers (a useful layout tool to flow objects around the page
and space them out sensibly on any sized display) has me now providing a
different style sheet with inline-block containers for NetSurf. This is
probably only for my personal use and it took a while to get it working
until I remembered NetSurf's sodding camel-case!

Apart from that I am very pleased that here, WebJames+PHP can take a 185
line, eight-column CSV file and sort it, serve the result to NetSurf
which can now actually cope with the layout foibles. No quite the 'blink
of an eye' speed of my ISP's hosting though.

Still under development: trying to display two CSV files in 24 different
ways and not shut out our less capable browser. No javascript required!
PHP does the donkey work. :-)

www.youngtheatre.co.uk/archive/list

Feedback on the NetSurf or other outcomes always welcome.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Form submission timeouts

[Tim Hill]

In article <20170811163021.gk7...@platypus.pepperfish.net>, Rob Kendrick
<r...@netsurf-browser.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 05:16:09PM +0100, Dave Higton wrote:
> > 
> > If anyone reading this thread can shed any light on MTU issues, how
> > to diagnose them and how to fix them, it would be very helpful.

> Something that has bitten be before is where automatic path MTU
> discovery does not work (and I suspect it doesn't on RISC OS), and your
> ISP does not support end-to-end 1500 byte MTUs (many do not).

> The solution is to set your whole LAN's MTU to 1400 or similar,
> although setting it only on the RISC OS machines may be sufficient (and
> not needed on VirtualAcorn because that proxies Windows's IP stack
> which is full-featured and conforming) assuming the problem is only
> sending large packets, not receiving them.

I find it fascinating that my ISP's web support MTU is variously 1454,
1458, 1492 and 1500. This is dependent on hardware - the last one being a
generic setting for 'none of the above routers'.

Funny how the original 'net developers opted for and MTU of around 1500.
Anyone who's had a computer for more than a few weeks ought to wonder why
it's not 1024.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Page Refresh

[Tim Hill]

In article <9c488b4556.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>, Richard Porter
<r...@minijem.plus.com> wrote:

> I had a problem after updating a web page. NetSurf displayed the old
> version so I did a refresh but the first two images which were named
> the same as the previous ones were not reloaded. The third image which
> didn't have a predecessor loaded OK. So I then had to reload the first
> two images separately. Surely this shouldn't be the way it works?

> #4088

Use Adjust on the reload button (and Interactive help!).

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: SVG image support on Netsurf 4088.

[Tim Hill]

In article <45f26a2b-4587-4f06-a4c7-df5419cfb...@powys.org>, Tim
Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
> Another minor problem with Netsurf: Thick lines on a vector image saved
> as a SVG file are displayed by Netsurf as lines of probably zero
> thickness, around a pixel wide.

> I have put a thick lined square here:
> <http://powys.org/Temp/thick_lines.html>

It's here, really: http://powys.org/Temp/Thick_Lines.svg;-)

stroke-width="n" in  seems to be ignored.

Perhaps use a rectangle within a rectangle and background colours to
create the same effect as a thick line?

Turns out that using styles in the svg file does work. The one on the
left is two rectangles, the pink one is a thick line. Created with
Inkscape in the pee sea.

www.timil.com/temp/drawing.svg

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: HTML's SUP

[Tim Hill]

In article <5642c25e44ch...@chris-johnson.org.uk>, cj
<ch...@chris-johnson.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <a8bcdc15-df7c-4389-aaa8-10595035d...@powys.org>, Tim
>Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
> > Hi,

> > I've just found that the SUP HTML command does not superimpose in
> > Netsurf 3.3, so I got the latest versio, 3.6, nor in that, finally I
> > read the advice and got last night's 4088 build and it still didn't,
> > so I wonder if this is something that I have not read about.  Is
> >  not a recognised modern feature?

> I have a feeling that SUP (and SUB) have never been implemented. I had
> a lot of trouble when making chemistry related web pages years ago.

I find that both  and a defined CSS class ("super") both render
superscripts correctly in 3.7 #4085.

www.timil.com/temp/superscript.htm

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Codethink sponsored work on NetSurf

[Tim Hill]

In article <8f376c96-35c5-d12d-74d3-67a316253...@codethink.co.uk>,
   Michael Drake <michael.dr...@codethink.co.uk> wrote:

> Over the past few weeks I've been able to spend time
> contributing to open-source projects at work.

> Codethink [1] values open-source software, and so I
> was approved to work on NetSurf and related components
> while I was between projects.  I'd like to thank
> Codethink for this opportunity, which I very much
> value and appreciate.

> What follows is a summary of the development I've been
> able to accomplish during this time.

> [1] http://www.codethink.co.uk/


[Snip masses of changes]

Great job! 

Sometimes I have no choice but to write pages where some CSS/JS defeats
NetSurf and while I try to make them degrade gracefully, this isn't
always true where I have lifted code from others but this page has now
sprung into legibility thanks to your hard work.

http://www.youngtheatre.co.uk/archive/yt/timelines/

Text and objects are no longer rendered outside the DIVs. Hurrah!

Must buy that man several pints. 

T

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Horizontal rules in Netsurf 3.5 & 3.6

[Tim Hill]

In article
<de036cb645a7d1e65c45d56debf0b2c5.squir...@ssl-webmail-vh.freeuk.com>,
   <pjpe...@freeuk.com> wrote:
> netsurf-users@netsurf-browser.org

[Snip]

> 

> This displays as expected in Netsurf 3.0 and Firefox but in Netsurf 3.5
> and 3.6 it produces a full width rule.

> Is it me or Netsurf that has missed something?

"width" of a rule is not one of those things that NetSurf can do,
unfortunately.

If you use a style instead, it does work:


-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Window position

[Tim Hill]

In article <30d0062956@abbeypress.net>,
   Jim Nagel <nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Or maybe a new trick such as Shift-Adjust-click could open the new 
> window *behind* the one I click in.  (Perhaps this is comparable to 
> the likes of Firefox, where you can configure whether opening a new 
> tab puts you immediately into the new tab or lets you remain in the 
> present one, in my case the list of search results.)

Shift/Adjust seems to be in use. Ctrl/Adjust seems unused.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: KYP West

[Tim Hill]

In article <ba176a2756@abbeypress.net>,
   Jim Nagel <nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> nonstandard coding of the site

Just a reminder that you can check this in several places, including 

http://validator.w3.org/

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: RESOLVED: [Was] Netsurf inconsistent behaviour between RISC OS 5.23 and 6.20

[Tim Hill]

In article <5603a241a4brian.jord...@btinternet.com>, Brian Jordan
<brian.jord...@btinternet.com> wrote:

[Snip]

> I suspect two versions of the relevant style sheet were
> being stored and that one was invoked when I loaded the online version
> of the site and the other when I loaded the local version. 

[Snip]


There's that 'thing' when changes have been made to a stylesheet but a
browser doesn't load it because it already has the old one. Which is what
may have happened here. To prevent it, have something like this in your
Head:



Appending any fake variable to the URL forces it to be loaded every time
the page is viewed and not just when the browser feels like it.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Netsurf inconsistent behaviour between RISC OS 5.23 and 6.20

[Tim Hill]

In article <56039cd7babrian.jord...@btinternet.com>, Brian Jordan
<brian.jord...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> FWIW the site was designed and laid out
> using RISC OS and NetSurf in particular.

I used to do that until trying to make my sites more mobile compliant 
for the 25% of mobile visitors and I discovered Flex containers were a
handy cross browser solution. 
Flex isn't implemented in NetSurf, of course. :-(

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Web page magnification

[Tim Hill]

In article <55f8413d86dhw...@talktalk.net>, David H Wild
<dhw...@talktalk.net> wrote:
> I am having problems reading because of a cataract which needs removing,

> i find that I can read the screen fairly well if I increases the
> magnification to 150%. Is there any way of telling NetSurf that this is
> how I want all pages?

Not a solution to the default, but my ButtonBar for NetSurf has grow and
shrink buttons (because I couldn't ever remember the key short-cuts).

http://timil.com/riscos

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Javascript ON when it's OFF

[Tim Hill]

In article <96f819f055.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>, Richard Porter
<r...@minijem.plus.com> wrote:
> On 17 Dec 2016 Tim Hill  wrote:

> > As you have a problem with both machines ...

> I didn't say that. I said that the behaviour was the same on both
> machines i.e. the page was working as intended and not showing duff
> gen on the ARMX6.

Not quite.

This was the post in question:

> > > Hmm. There seem to be problems with both ARMini and ARMx6. What
> > > could they have in common which differs from other platforms?

> > I'm puzzled because I'm getting the same behaviour on both ARMX6 and
> > RiscPC, as I would expect using the same version of NetSurf. Does it
> > contain any alternative paths depending on OS version or processor
> > type?

"the same behaviour" in reply to "there seem to be problems"

Not confusing at all.

Good night.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Javascript ON when it's OFF

[Tim Hill]

In article <a8b6dcef55.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>, Richard Porter
<r...@minijem.plus.com> wrote:
> On 17 Dec 2016 Tim Hill  wrote:

> > Hmm. There seem to be problems with both ARMini and ARMx6. What could
> > they have in common which differs from other platforms?

> I'm puzzled because I'm getting the same behaviour on both ARMX6 and
> RiscPC, as I would expect using the same version of NetSurf. Does it
> contain any alternative paths depending on OS version or processor
> type?

Well, I'm not sure there is an HTTP header which would tell me the OS nor
processor type of the machine hosting a visiting browser unless this is
included in the user agent string. Go here with any browser to see what
it is telling the world about itself in its User Agent HTTP header:
http://timil.com/temp/browser.php?version=latest
NetSurf 3.7 #3798 says "NetSurf/3.7 (RISC OS)". 

Hopefully, a browser doesn't tell lies in that string or if a user
changes it then obviously it won't be detected OR checks for OS versions
and whatnot can be completely spurious and unreliable anyway. You almost
need Google Translate anyway to know that "...Windows NT 6.1; WOW64..."
is actually Windows7-64.

As I explained, the Calendar page detects the browser name in the
HTTP_USER_AGENT string.
The chunk of the page which does that and generates the welcome message
is here http://timil.com/riscos/calendar/netsurf?version=latest

The purpose of it is to do this:
Find out which Browser is visiting.
If it is NetSurf, Otter or Firefox print a personalised welcome message
then:
  Is JavaScript active?
   - yes: print one message in RED (using JavaScript)
   - no: print in black, another message; If NetSurf, print some more.

As you have a problem with both machines it could indicate that your
network connection could be caching files somewhere incorrectly. Using a
dummy variable appended to a URL will/should force a fresh copy of that
file to be used and not a cached one:
http://timil.com/riscos/calendar/?version=latest

The user could be consistent in not changing the option in both browsers
correctly (!) or your copies of NetSurf (or your hardware) are corrupt
and should be replaced. It seems unlikely that both machines would have
the same problem unless you are running the exact same copy of NetSurf
via Share (as I do). But doing the same wrong thing on both machines
would be possible! After all, someone else with the same version and
hardware as you does not experience the same problem.

Well, back to the page being displayed (wrongly) in your NetSurfs, and
after ensuring that "Disable JavaScript" is ticked in the Content
Choices, what happens when you click on "Set" with Select? 
If the Content Choices dialogue closes, is the Disable JavaScript option
still ticked if you then re-open it?

Another thing you could try is deleting whatever cache you have for
NetSurf. Use the Utility !ShowScrap (or into a command window type 
Filer_OpenDir <Wimp$ScrapDir>
and then press ). Delete the contents of WWW.NetSurf.Cache

There there could instead be a software clash so try and remove anything
non-standard. Have you added things such as MouseAxess to both machines?
I deleted that years ago following a tip and lots of supposedly unrelated
weirdness stopped happening

. We just need to find out what's causing yours.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Javascript ON when it's OFF

[Tim Hill]

In article <55efef95a0brian.jord...@btinternet.com>, Brian Jordan
<brian.jord...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In article <55efd852c1...@timil.com>, Tim Hill <t...@timil.com> wrote:
> > In article <55ef946fbbbrian.jord...@btinternet.com>, Brian Jordan
> > <brian.jord...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > Or perhaps you are being deliberately obtuse, I'm not sure.

> If objectively reporting what I am seeing here with the latest release
> of NetSurf constitutes obtuseness then I plead guilty.

Sorry, Brian, I thought for a moment this was Twitter and I was being
trolled.

I have amended the messages and hope it is more easily understood.

http://timil.com/riscos/calendar

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Javascript ON when it's OFF

[Tim Hill]

In article <db4adcef55.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>, Richard Porter
<r...@minijem.plus.com> wrote:
> On 17 Dec 2016 Tim Hill  wrote:

> > In article <4c8196ef55.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>, Richard Porter
> ><r...@minijem.plus.com> wrote:
> >> On 16 Dec 2016 Tim Hill  wrote:

> >>>>> http://timil.com/riscos/calendar/

> >> I've run into a slight problem with the calendar. If you click a
> >> link associated with an event the page opens in the window in the
> >> middle of your page. There doesn't appear to be any way to get back
> >> to the calendar short of starting again. The back button doesn't
> >> help.

> > JHC.

> > Use  when you click on a link.

> > I can't reprogramme Google Calendar.

> Granted, but you need to know in advance that you'll need to Adjust-
> click on any link off the calendar. Of course the root cause is that
> NetSurf doesn't save updates to iframes it its history.

I have added a note to help people less familiar with the workings of
NetSurf and RISC OS.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Javascript ON when it's OFF

[Tim Hill]

In article <eb73adef55.br...@helpful.demon.co.uk>, Bryan Hogan
<nets...@helpful.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> However having just turned my ARMini back on and tried again, I now
> get the version that says "Welcome NetSurf user, you have JS
> disabled". So something must have been wrong with the page caching.

Sounds likely. 

> However, the calendar still doesn't display. Now I briefly get a "Bad
> redirect URL" error in NetSurf's status bar :-(

I've only seen messages like that with Phoenix. ;-)

Also odd, because when I select the HTML-only link it doesn't seem to
redirect at all. 

> NetSurf v3.6 (19th Nov 2016) - the release version.

> Others have it working so there must be something going on here. I'll
> have more of a play over the weekend.

Hmm. There seem to be problems with both ARMini and ARMx6. What could
they have in common which differs from other platforms?

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Javascript ON when it's OFF

[Tim Hill]

In article <4c8196ef55.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>,
   Richard Porter <r...@minijem.plus.com> wrote:
> On 16 Dec 2016 Tim Hill  wrote:

> >>> http://timil.com/riscos/calendar/

> I've run into a slight problem with the calendar. If you click a link 
> associated with an event the page opens in the window in the middle of 
> your page. There doesn't appear to be any way to get back to the 
> calendar short of starting again. The back button doesn't help.

JHC.

Use  when you click on a link.

I can't reprogramme Google Calendar.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Javascript ON when it's OFF

[Tim Hill]

In article <55ef946fbbbrian.jord...@btinternet.com>, Brian Jordan
<brian.jord...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> In article <cb298fef55.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young
><pnyo...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 16 Dec 2016  Tim Hill <t...@timil.com> wrote:

> > > In article <f4c16bef55.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>, Richard Porter
> > > <r...@minijem.plus.com> wrote:
> > >> On 16 Dec 2016 Tim Hill  wrote:

> > >>>>> http://timil.com/riscos/calendar/

> > >>>> Not working here, #3803. The site says that JavaScript is on,
> > >>>> even though I've turned it off, quit NetSurf and tried to see
> > >>>> the site again.

> > >>> Must be a problem with that version. The message saying it is ON
> > >>> is rendered with Javascript so how can it possibly be disabled?

> > >>> You shouldn't need to quit, only reload after SETting that
> > >>> Content Choice option.

> > >>> #3798 works as expected.

> > >> Works on #3803 here (6.20 RPC)

> > > Thanks. I'll assume 'user error'.

> > How? I can only report what I see! I call up the site, it tells me
> > that JavaScript is on, I turn it off, and the site still tells me
> > that it's still on. How could I have made an error that made that
> > happen?

> > Is it something to do with the ARMX6, or with something else that I'm
> > running?

> I have JavaScript enabled here as a matter of course (Choices-->
> Content--> Not ticked, which appears to be the default setting. The
> calendar display is incomplete with the message "You may need to
> disable Javascript and reload this page" 

Correct

> If I then disable JS and
> reload the page the display area has a message "Your browser does not
> appear to support JavaScript but this page needs to use JavaScript to
> display correctly. 

Correct. It didn't did it? With NetSurf's semi-JavaScript enabled you saw
a white page with only "RISC OS Event Calendar" written in it.

> You can visit the HTML-only version of this page
> at:

Yes, so what you do is click on the HTML-only version.

Why do people find this complicated?

I have no means to change the message Google Calendar puts in the iframe
but if you think it through, it makes complete sense and you have to
click on the HTML-only version because the browser you are using is, um,
incomplete.

Or perhaps you are being deliberately obtuse, I'm not sure.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Javascript ON when it's OFF

[Tim Hill]

In article <d8bd95ef55.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>, Richard Porter
<r...@minijem.plus.com> wrote:
> On 16 Dec 2016 Brian Jordan  wrote:

> > I have JavaScript enabled here as a matter of course (Choices-->
> > Content--> Not ticked, which appears to be the default setting. The
> > calendar display is incomplete with the message "You may need to
> > disable Javascript and reload this page" If I then disable JS and
> > reload the page the display area has a message "Your browser does not
> > appear to support JavaScript but this page needs to use JavaScript to
> > display correctly. You can visit the HTML-only version of this page
> > at:

> > NetSurf #3803 is doing my head in, Boss.

> It's contradictory. 

No it isn't.

> When you open the page it says "Your Javascript
> ios disabled as it should be" at the top, then underneath Google
> calendar says "Your browser does not appear to support JavaScript but
> this page needs to use JavaScript to display correctly. ...". However
> if you follow the link the calendar display comes up.

Beacause it's offering you the non-JavaScript alternative. You need to
select it. Oh, what a hardship.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: Javascript ON when it's OFF

[Tim Hill]

In article <f4c16bef55.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>, Richard Porter
<r...@minijem.plus.com> wrote:
> On 16 Dec 2016 Tim Hill  wrote:

> >>> http://timil.com/riscos/calendar/

> >> Not working here, #3803. The site says that JavaScript is on, even
> >> though I've turned it off, quit NetSurf and tried to see the site
> >> again.

> > Must be a problem with that version. The message saying it is ON is
> > rendered with Javascript so how can it possibly be disabled?

> > You shouldn't need to quit, only reload after SETting that Content
> > Choice option.

> > #3798 works as expected.

> Works on #3803 here (6.20 RPC)

Thanks. I'll assume 'user error'.

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Javascript ON when it's OFF

[Tim Hill]

>From Newsgroup: comp.sys.acorn.misc
Subject: Re: London Show news
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 10:20

In article <acbd4eef55.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young
<pnyo...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 16 Dec 2016  Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> > In article <4ec82cef55.br...@helpful.demon.co.uk>, Bryan Hogan
> > <spam@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> >> Although the Events Calendar doesn't work in NetSurf, so also have a
> >> nomination in the Broken Cog category :-D

> > It does, why have you got javascript switched on?  ;-)

> > Fixed that for you:

> > http://timil.com/riscos/calendar/

> Not working here, #3803. The site says that JavaScript is on, even
> though I've turned it off, quit NetSurf and tried to see the site
> again.

Must be a problem with that version. The message saying it is ON is
rendered with Javascript so how can it possibly be disabled?

You shouldn't need to quit, only reload after SETting that Content Choice
option.

#3798 works as expected.

*** Posted to NetSurf Users Mailing List***

-- 

Tim Hill

timil.com : tjrh.eu : butterwick.eu : blue-bike.uk : youngtheatre.co.uk

Re: history and hotlist not saved; CSS site

[Tim Hill]

In article <c77953e355@abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Last night I was looking for tips on how to use CSS for something on
> my website

[snip]

On balance, I find
www.w3schools.com 
better than HTML.com
YMMV

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: CSS and "media query" -- smartphone vs desktop

[Tim Hill]

In article <20161025101401.gb2...@kyllikki.org>,
   Vincent Sanders <vi...@netsurf-browser.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 10:47:45AM +0100, Jim Nagel wrote:
> > Any chance of Netsurf's CSS handling being extended a bit to support 
> > "media query"?

> It has been on our list of "important" things to do for some
> considerable time now. We know what needs to be done and how [1] but
> as usual development time is limited and noone has yet had time to
> work on the feature.

> > 
> > Reason I ask is that I want to rejig my various websites (including 
> > Archive's) so that (among other things) they will be readable on 
> > smartphone screens as well as desktop screens.

[Snip]

I find that this meta tag immediately fixes lots of issues without having
to come up with a new CSS file for each and every device.

 

The viewport meta tag doesn't fix everything but is a good interim
measure until you have time to do things 'properly'.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: Facebook

[Tim Hill]

In article <df473b8155.thebe...@sarno.freeserve.co.uk>, Geoffrey
Baxendale <thebe...@sarno.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <5580b6b6a9joh...@ukgateway.net> John Williams
>   <joh...@ukgateway.net> wrote:

> >
> > I've just discovered that I can get Facebook up in NetSurf if I
> > substitute "m" for "www" in the URL.
> >
> > That'll save a lot of wear and tear on the memory stick to get photos
> > of the new granddaughter into my RISC OS e-mails for the elderly
> > relative (90) that sends cheques, not to mention my time!
> >
> > Forgive me if you already knew ...
> >
> > John
> >
> I was surprised the other day to discover that Facebook renders OK with
> recent builds.  CI#3537 ATM. An organisation I am with has a page and
> it just used to give a blank page but not now. Takes a while to render
> on this Kinetic Strong ARM. Thanks guys.

Mobile sites can be less demanding. This works too:

http://m.twitter.com

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: online phone book

[Tim Hill]

In article <c0d16f7a55@abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Jim Nagel  wrote on 28 Apr:
> > Can anybody point me to a free online telephone directory that works
> > on Netsurf?

> None?

Not ignoring you Jim but I haven't used a telephone directory for years.
It's usually a business number I need for which I Google and usually take
from a firm's own website.

This works:

"Okay, Google, what's the phone number for Archive magazine risc oh-ess?"

Select first result, then contact. Voila: 01458 ...603  ;-D

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: Weird page

[Tim Hill]

In article <55723a11c3...@timil.com>, Tim Hill <t...@timil.com> wrote:
> In article <557236259ali...@torrens.org.uk>, Richard Torrens (lists)
> <li...@torrens.org.uk> wrote:
> > http://www.thehowleytavern.co.uk/menu.html

> > The menu contents do not appear.

> > But if you view the page as text, and run that, all is well! So I
> > can't see what is causing the problem.

> If you do that, you are viewing the page without its CSS file at
> http://www.thehowleytavern.co.uk/presentation/screen.css

> Is there something in there which isn't supported by Netsurf? A color
> declaration in a list item, perhaps? I'm only guessing. No time right
> now to debug someone else's CSS: #C4F1.

(Okay, that's now out of the way. Seventh!)

To test this and play with (learn about) the CSS file, I have saved the
files as

RAM::RamDisc0.$.01
RAM::RamDisc0.$.presentation.screen/css

'01' is the default name given to the original page when I saved it from
NetSurf. I created the directory 'presentation' to contain the CSS file
and so its relative path is correct.

Examination of the HTML reveals that the menu items use a table for
layout and in the CSS file on line 89 there is this
#menu_content table td { border-bottom:1px solid #B48B5F; color: #fff; 

In other words, white text in any table and td contained within anything
that uses menu-content, which is the menu text. Changing that line to
#menu_content table td { border-bottom:1px solid #B48B5F; color: black; 
makes the text appear. (Developers: when there's a name for a 'color',
please use it. 'white' is much easier to read than #fff or #ff and
your mistakes will be more obvious.)

I suspect this is modified by Javascript as there's loads of that kicking
around too so 'normal' browsers don't see white text on a white
background as NetSurf does.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: Weird page

[Tim Hill]

In article <557236259ali...@torrens.org.uk>, Richard Torrens (lists)
<li...@torrens.org.uk> wrote:
> http://www.thehowleytavern.co.uk/menu.html

> The menu contents do not appear.

> But if you view the page as text, and run that, all is well! So I can't
> see what is causing the problem.

If you do that, you are viewing the page without its CSS file at
http://www.thehowleytavern.co.uk/presentation/screen.css

Is there something in there which isn't supported by Netsurf? A color
declaration in a list item, perhaps? I'm only guessing. No time right now
to debug someone else's CSS: #C4F1.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: unresizable web page (last bank standing)

[Tim Hill]

In article <f7788d5b55@abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
<nets...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Is it something about the coding of this site or about Netsurf's
> rendering of it?  Or maybe it's in the CSS of the page?

> https://www.change.org/p/last-bank-standing-don-t-let-communities-lose-their-only-bank


> The picture displays so huge as to be unrecognizable pixels;
> paragraphs of text are a single line so wide that they are unreadable.

> Resizing the Netsurf window (even with Ctrl on the Resize icon) does
> nothing but make the font smaller -- text remains a single line.

> Using Netsurf #3382 on Ro 5.23.

3403 on 5.18 looks 'okay'. Though not perfect, it doesn't do what you
describe and is legible.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: Review: Codethink sponsored work on NetSurf, LibCSS and LibDOM

[Tim Hill]

In article <d5b58a5155.harr...@blueyonder.co.uk>, Harriet Bazley
<li...@orange.wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2016 as I do recall, Michael Drake  wrote:

> >
> > Review: Codethink sponsored work on NetSurf, LibCSS and LibDOM
> > ==
> >
> > Over the last couple of weeks I have been lucky enough to be able to
> > do work on the NetSurf project at work. At
> > [Codethink](http://www.codethink.co.uk/) we have an arrangement that
> > allows engineers to fill time between projects by making
> > contributions to certain open source projects.
> >
> > My request to work on [NetSurf](http://www.netsurf-browser.org/), and
> > more particularly, its [LibDOM](http://ns-b.org/projects/libdom/) and
> > [LibCSS](http://ns-b.org/projects/libcss/) sub-projects was approved
> > and I was able to get a good amount done.

> [snip]

> I'm impressed that so much of this seems to relate to making Netsurf
> faster and more efficient!

As someone who has been a little lax in keeping up with the bleeding edge
I'm really happy having downloaded #3403 to find it seems quicker than
the 'ancient' version I was using.

The spurious carriage returns which showed up inside tables seem to have
gone. Hurrah.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: The Kingfisher by Corne van Oosterhout

[Tim Hill]

In article <553f246478bbai...@argonet.co.uk>, Brian
<bbai...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <0002ff1d.01eff4901...@smtp.freeola.net>, Peter Slegg
> <p.sl...@scubadivers.co.uk> wrote:
> > > I know that this is very much a technical newsgroup but I just
> > > could not fail to be impressed how well NetSurf renders the
> > > following,
> > >
> http://totallycoolpix.com/magazine/2016/01/the-kingfisher-by-corne-van-oosterhout
> > >
> > > some sort of photography!?!
> > >
> > > Brian
> > >
> > >

> > Is that url complete ?

> > All I get is  "Bad redirect URL"

> No problem here, Peter. No explanation either.!?!

> Try removing the > > (don't know what you call those thingys) the line
> wrap seems to make no difference.

I find it useful to refer to punctuation using their HTML entities (when
the recipient has half a chance of understanding) but there's no telling
how  will be treated between my fingers and your eyes. I've heard <
() and > () referred to as 'angle brackets' so  > () would be
'closing angle bracket' and you see why I use  instead.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: Where to get dvelopment (CI) versions

[Tim Hill]

In article <4db36d8bc30.0d10d...@davehigton.me.uk>, Dave Higton
<d...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> In case there's anyone who would like to try a CI version, but doesn't
> know where to find them:

> Left click on NetSurf's icon bar icon (opens the Welcome page).

[Snip]

> (The above steps work for RISC OS and a couple of other OS's.)

[Snip]

If the Home Page has been reconfigured, it doesn't.

Customary to include a URL so here it is, for everyone.

http://ci.netsurf-browser.org/

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: #2988 hanging

[Tim Hill]

In article <8ee8e81155.geo...@tiscali..co.uk>, george greenfield
<george.greenfi...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ae92dd1155.ga...@wra1th.plus.com> Gavin Wraith
>   <ga...@wra1th.plus.com> wrote:

> > In message <35e4e54c747.0d53d...@davehigton.me.uk> Dave Higton
> >   <d...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>There's another point worth making here.  If you think NS has
> >>crashed, use Alt-Break.  Note: NEVER use Ctrl-Break, various RISC OS
> >>luminaries class it as Evil and say it Breaks Discs.
> > 
> > Thanks very much for this. -- Gavin Wraith (ga...@wra1th.plus.com)
> > Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/
> > 
> I must confess to having used Ctrl-Break from time to time, when faced
> with a frozen desktop, without evident ill-effects. Is it considered
> worse than powering-off at the switch, which is the only other option
> AFAIK?

This is from my obey file Boot:choices.boot.tasks.Tim's

| next line disables ctrl/break; use reset. see message
| <bea5bc2b4d@sandford.ntlworld.com>
Fx 247 169 0

Good luck finding that message. Sometimes the internet is less than
useless.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: #2988 hanging

[Tim Hill]

In article <20151013152414.gb23...@platypus.pepperfish.net>, Rob Kendrick
<r...@netsurf-browser.org> wrote:

[Snip]

>   Summary: Always try Alt-Break first (and the a clean shutdown 
> straight after), and only Ctrl-Break/Hardware reset button as a   last
> resort.

The ultimate last resort is to 'cycle the power switch' as sometimes
that's the only way out of the so-called 'pyjamas' screen on Iyonix and
other situations with a Pi.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: Netsurf RISC OS and abebooks.co.uk

[Tim Hill]

In article <f3021c0a55.c...@cdewhurst2010.btinternet.com>, Chris Dewhurst
<cdewhurst2...@btinternet.com> wrote:

[Snip]

> Of course the website's code could have changed since I last used t
> but anyone know what's causing this and can it be fixed?

[Snip]

Any page which has 107 instances of the word 'javascript' is likely to
fail in NetSurf, IME.

f8 - search and replace 'javas' for 'javas' in StrongED.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: Error on Yahoo news

[Tim Hill]

In article 54f6a3f263li...@torrens.org.uk, Richard Torrens (lists)
li...@torrens.org.uk wrote:
 In article 00110f20.031e94909...@smtp.freeola.net, Peter Slegg
p.sl...@scubadivers.co.uk wrote:
  This url  uk.news.yahoo.com  just gives me the error

 It strikes me that that is not a URL.

It is launched by Pluto and opens in Netsurf. Did you try it?

[Snip]

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: Google

[Tim Hill]

In article 54c08c6513li...@torrens.org.uk, Richard Torrens (lists)
li...@torrens.org.uk wrote:
 Yesterday Google stopped working with Netsurf.

 Has anyone any cures or suggestions?

If you mean Google Search, in its stead I've been using DuckDuckGo with
RISC OS for some time.

https://duckduckgo.com/html/

-- 

www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: Google

[Tim Hill]

In article 9118c3c054.r...@user.minijem.plus.com,
   Richard Porter r...@minijem.plus.com wrote:

[Snip]

 I use Google to provide a search facility on my own web site. Which of 
 any of the other search engines or front ends allow you to create a 
 form which specifies a particular site?

https://duckduckgo.com/search_box

-- 

www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: BBC News

[Tim Hill]

In article mpro.nm1cfo01a6ts900oj.pit...@pittdj.co.uk,
   David Pitt pit...@pittdj.co.uk wrote:

[Snip]

 JavaScript is required for the progressive jpegs,

Head/desk.

[Snip]

-- 

www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: Malformed site (partly OT).

[Tim Hill]

In article 44f5489854.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk, Peter Young
pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote:
 I maintain the website of the local branch of the Multiple Sclerosis
 Society, at www.mssociety.org.uk/cheltenham (NB I am only responsible
 for the content, not the formatting). From time to time the site gets
 seriously malformed in RISC OS NetSurf, and then a few days later goes
 back to what is should be. Screenshots of this are at
 http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/Chrome.jpg as it should be in Chrome on
 Windows and http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk/NetSurf.jpg as it was
 yesterday in NetSurf #2600, but it's back to how it should be this
 morning! Same NetSurf build.

That difference is CSS. Perhaps someone knows why NetSurf doesn't always
seem to see their style sheet(s). I have seen this once or twice,  even
in Windows browsers, when the CSS is missing or misnamed. Perhaps just a
slow/busy server and NetSurf is impatient?

 I imagine this is the fault of the site rather than of NetSurf, but I
 would value comments. (OT) If it is the fault of the site, I have a
 feeling that they may be contravening guidance about website
 accessibility for disabled people, and I would be interested in
 comments about this also.

Their cookie top bars are twee, one is superfluous and both are invisible
to NetSurf but to answer your question:

They seem to meet all their claims to accessibility if I use a Windows
mainstream browser but some of their claims are reliant on a browser's
ability to, say, cycle through all links with the tab and select them
with return. This is common: is that claim met when NetSurf doesn't
provide that facility? In common with much corporate drivel on
accessibility, I wonder whether their accessibility page should have a
disclaimer about 'depending on browser' and not appear to take credit for
a browser feature! All they have done is get things in the right order.
However, as your second image shows, the basic HTML layout seems tidy and
structured which is pretty much what most accessibility implementation is
really all about. Judging by the inhuman CSS file names used nobody codes
any of their pages except via a CMS.

Interesting that text-low-graphics still imposes their choice of layout
and font on the reader. A designer who won't let go? (S/he won't use
standard G+, facebook, Twitter, or YouTube gfx). I thought that partially
sighted readers were meant to be able to use their browser default font?
To all intents and purposes a vanilla page should be the page with no CSS
and only one menu. Having seen a partially sighted user with a huge
monitor and text blown up to four lines a screenful, I learnt to
appreciate the need for a 'basic' option (appreciate =/= implement
always). Scrolling around a cheesy, classic over-menued 'square' page
(skyscraper menu left, menu bar at the top, menu bar at the bottom with
center and right skyscraper content) when your browser viewport is at
800%+ is not easy as anyone with a small smartphone visiting a
desktop-only web site will attest. Oh, look at sites such as
www.mssociety.org.uk  Not really mobile friendly at all. No mobiles at
MSS yet then? ;-)

Try and read that website on a small smartphone and I think anyone would
have comments about practical 'accessibility'.

Where are my specs?  

A lookalike MSS website is what you could end up with if you use my ISP's
website builder http://freeola.com/website-builder/ which has lots of
'square' templates with three menus, on one menu thrice.

-- 

www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: dropzone on a web page

[Tim Hill]

In article f6de2a4654.davem...@my.inbox.com, Dave Higton
d...@davehigton.me.uk wrote:
 In message 6ef3fd4554@abbeypress.net Jim Nagel
   nets...@abbeypress.co.uk wrote:

 Is this a new ability that has come along with Netsurf 3.2?  Yaaay.

 I have no idea whether the functionality is the same, but Netsurf has
 worked with the W3C Validation Service http://validator.w3.org/ for
 years.  I have always dragged my HTML to the Validate by File Upload
 box.

That uses input type=file..., part of a form... so not reliant on
Javascript. And yes, seems to have been supported for ages and still
works with w3c as you describe although I use PHP so often, I tend to use
the URL method these days pointing at my server (a Pi) and the local copy
of the site.

-- 

www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Accents in URLs

[Tim Hill]

Just came across this URL which opens in 'other' browsers but not in RISC
OS NetSurf here. Okay, I'll admit to using an old version (3.1 #1298)
but no doubt I'll be told if later versions do cope. ;-)

http://dahlström.net/svg/favicon/favicon.html

(which StronEd doesn't but Pluto translates to
http://dahlstr%F6m.net/svg/favicon/favicon.html)

tried this

http://dahlstrouml;m.net/svg/favicon/favicon.html

and this

http://dahlstr#246;m.net/svg/favicon/favicon.html

Without the umlaut it is a different web site. Daft, eh?

http://dahlstrom.net/svg/favicon/favicon.html

Re: downloads always set to filetype F80

[Tim Hill]

In article adf42fe453.mar...@blueyonder.co.uk, Martin Bazley
martin.baz...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

This does sound like a mimemap issue. Doesn't happen here with
http://timil.com/riscos/mimemap where unrecognised files are 'text'.

 I don't remember exactly how MimeMap works, so you might have to reset
 to apply the changes.

After editing and saving or replacing the file

f12
*ReadMimeMapReturn
Return

forces the module Mime Mapping to re-read the text file and thus
utilise new settings.

Re: Paypal bank transfer

[Tim Hill]

In article 04f80fd053.c...@cdewhurst2010.btinternet.com, Cristopher
Dewhurst cdewhurst2...@btinternet.com wrote:

[Snip]

 I have only just found the start of this thread (sent to the spam
 folder by BT for some reason 

If they're as useless as some other providers it will be because their
spam filters are simply rubbish. Bigger ISPs are far worse than small
ones at this.

Re: NetSurf Developer workshop

[Tim Hill]

In article 20140106220844.gl6...@kyllikki.org, Vincent Sanders
vi...@netsurf-browser.org wrote:
 The write up of our recent developer weekend is now available [1] for
 those interested in what we achived.

 [1]
 http://vincentsanders.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/netsurf-developer-workshop-redux.html

It is great to read that you are all obviously so committed to the
project. Thank you all.

It's worth reading the report, if only to chuckle at the final sentence!
;-)

Re: Feature req: completely turn off saved web page app iconsprites/replace with generic?

[Tim Hill]

In article bf3768c253.zen44...@zen.co.uk, Simon Smith
simon_sm...@zen.co.uk wrote:
 When you save a local copy of a web page with NetSurf you get an icon
 file  which is a tiny thumbnail view of the entire web page. I don't
 like these very much - I find them untidy. Given that you can control
 whether or not iconised windows use thumbnail images, it's a bit odd
 that one has no control at all over the 'saved page icons'.

It isn't odd at all. Different things are done differently by different
things. I am sure the NS devs thought that an iconised page was ideal. I
tend to agree. It harmonises with the current history display by having
the 'same' thumbnails.

 I'd prefer
 a generic 'saved web page' app icon, or nothing at all, giving the RISC
 OS default icon. If a web page provided an .ico file, I guess many
 people might prefer to use that.

Unless you were saving lots of pages from one site and different
miniature versions of the page may be better than them all having the
same icon.

 Is it possible to turn off the 'IconSprites' line in the mini !Run
 files NetSurf provides you, which currently reads

 IconSprites Obey$Dir.!Sprites Filer_Run Obey$Dir.index

Apart from deleting the iconsprites line or by putting a pipe | in
front of the command? Though you may find that an application directory
will always load a !Sprites file if it can so deleting that prevents it.

 Providing better control over this does seem like a legit use for a
 configuration option. I'm a bit surprised that !Run file (and/or an
 option Boot file) aren't available as editable resources.

 At present I'm deleting the unwanted Sprites files and tweaking the
 !Run files by hand, which is a chore.

It may be a chore but I'm guessing many will read that and ask why
bother?.

Re: Cut to clipboard

[Tim Hill]

In article 5379794045j...@jaharrison.me.uk, John Harrison
j...@jaharrison.me.uk wrote:
 In article 20ed3b7953.harr...@blueyonder.co.uk, Harriet Bazley
li...@orange.wingsandbeaks.org.uk wrote:

  ... it *is* possible already to select a section, cut it to the
  clipboard, and paste it elsewhere.  It would be nice (and safer) if
  overtyping had the same effect.   The main argument I can see against
  it is that people might conceivably want to copy text to the
  clipboard, delete a block of text by overtyping with a backspace, and
  then paste the former clipboard contents;  

 I would strongly support the argument against it.  

Then perhaps it should be configurable, where it exists.

[Snip]