Re: Two possible books for discussion?

[Nina Temporär]

Absolutely,

check this out:
http://stopmotionstudies.net/pdf/bohm_07_07.pdf
and
http://turbulence.org/spotlight/crawford/index.html

#Bohm

Best N
 

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Juni 2019 um 21:40 Uhr
Von: "Max Herman" 
An: "nettime-l@mail.kein.org" 
Betreff:  Two possible books for discussion?



 

Hi all,

 

I recently found out about David Bohm's 1996 book On Dialogue, and have been interested in Italo Calvino's Six Memos for the Next Millennium for a couple of years.

 

Are either of these relevant for or about discussion approaches?

 

Thanks,

 

Max
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Re: less (net time) is more

[Nina Temporär]

This sentence is the nettime problem in a nutshell

>why narrow it down to your favourite
> prejudices ?
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Re: less (net time) is more

[Nina Temporär]

 
Dear Andreas,
I know you mean it in a good way and are simply speculating...

...but just as little reminder - "mentor system": Yikes, that is
the perfect tool to render it most likely that hierarchies reproduce
themselves. It is gonna be like the vatican then. o_O

Also, as the problem of the list has been so far that it was mostly
white men "in their best years" (not saying old, am against ageism
ever since i start to turn old myself ;)) who are posting here,
what would be the solution: Older men mentoring younger women??
...
...
(don't need to comment on that ;))

...
...

Best N

 

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Juni 2019 um 16:06 Uhr
Von: "Andreas Broeckmann" 
An: nettime 
Betreff: Re:  less (net time) is more

panos, friends,

i like this idea, especially because it highlights what is valuable
about many of the exchanges that include the conviviality of arguing.
(once upon a time, in the later 1990s, there was a string of such
meetings... [incl. big arguments about joint projects like the READ ME
publication])

i also like how panos's proposal gives a mild hint that loneliness might
be one of the ghosts that have haunted nettimers in the last months, or
longer.

maybe instead of creating a strict rule ("no single-author e-mails"),
panos's suggestion can be taken as an encouragement for all of us people
before posting: to whom can i show this before it gets posted?

so, "ideally", any message would come from a relay-person, a mentor
chosen by the author...

ok, i see the problems of such a system, but i like the feeling of being
in this "convivial dream nettime" for a while... ;-)

regards,
-a


Am 11.06.19 um 23:03 schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I have been following since a few years and tried many times to write
> but for some reason never pressed the send button.
>
> It is perhaps that I was always wanting to suggest somehow obvious,
> simple things, which have been said before many times. But I do think
> that it is important to keep trying with the simplest ideas.
>
> So, for me a possible future for mailing lists would be to simply make
> face-to-face contact an integral part of their main "communication
> protocol".
>
> I don't know, a few people meeting more or less randomly and then making
> the habit to send a common e-mail to a list would be cool. Then a
> possible proposal for the future of nettime: Single e-mails forbidden!
> People should send to the list only if they are at least with one more
> person discussing live the content of their common e-mail.
>
> In any case, if we are serious about privacy, sovereignty, ecology, etc,
> we need less not more data, even if they "belong to the people".
>
> Instead of claiming for more private, secure, user-owned data I think we
> should actively question first data itself, and demand less connected
> things, less blockchain world savers, less online groups, etc.
>
> Anyway, I am happy that I finally sent my first e-mail to nettime
> without thinking too much about it :-)
>
> Best,
>
> Panos
> http://nethood.org/panayotis/
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Re: Ben Quinn: Julian Assange shows psychological torture symptoms, says UN expert (Guardian)

[Nina Temporär]

"In the course of the past nine years, Mr Assange has been exposed to persistent, progressively severe abuse ranging ….. from deliberate collective ridicule, insults and humiliation...“
 

Seriously?

Little reminder:
"Part of the problem is that there is two women. If there was one, you could go:
'She is a bad woman'. I think this would have happened by now. 'This person is a
bad character, bad faith, and here is evidence that points to it.'  Because there is two,
it is much harder."
(Julian Assange in "Risk" by Laura Poitras, around min. 28)
 

 

*** Freedom for the whistleblowers - No to extradition - But for a more differentiated coverage of the topic ***

 

Gesendet: Freitag, 31. Mai 2019 um 12:24 Uhr
Von: "Patrice Riemens" 
An: nettim...@kein.org
Betreff:  Ben Quinn: Julian Assange shows psychological torture symptoms, says UN expert (Guardian)

Original to:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/may/31/julian-assange-shows-psychological-torture-symptoms-says-un-expert


Julian Assange shows psychological torture symptoms, says UN expert
UK government urged not to extradite WikiLeaks co-founder to US where he
faces decades in prison

Ben Quinn, The Guardian, Fri 31 May 2019.


Julian Assange is showing all the symptoms associated with prolonged
exposure to psychological torture and should not be extradited to the
US, according to a senior UN expert who visited him in prison.

Nils Melzer, UN’s special rapporteur on torture, is expected to make his
appeal to the UK government on Friday. It comes after Assange, the
co-founder of WikiLeaks, was said by his lawyers to be too ill to appear
by video link for the latest court hearing of the case on Thursday.

Assange has been moved to the health ward of Belmarsh prison, London,
where he has been serving a 50-week sentence for skipping bail while
fighting extradition to the US. He is accused of violating the Espionage
Act by publishing secret documents containing the names of confidential
US military and diplomatic sources.

After meeting Assange earlier this month in the company of medical
experts who examined him, Melzer will say on Friday that he fears the
Australian’s human rights could be seriously violated if he is
extradited to the US and will condemn what he describes as the
“deliberate and concerted abuse inflicted for years” on him.

Assange was arrested in April after Ecuador revoked his political asylum
and invited police inside the country’s Knightsbridge diplomatic
premises, where he had sought refuge in 2012 to avoid extradition to
Sweden over allegations of sexual assault, which he has denied.

“Physically there were ailments but that side of things are being
addressed by the prison health service and there was nothing urgent or
dangerous in that way,” Melzer said.

“What was worrying was the psychological side and his constant anxiety.
It was perceptible that he had a sense of being under threat from
everyone. He understood what my function was but it’s more that he was
extremely agitated and busy with his own thoughts. It was difficult to
have a very structured conversation with him.”

Melzer said that Belmarsh was an old prison and had issues about that
but he described it as well maintained, adding that characterisations of
it as a “supermax” or “the Guantanamo of Britain” were unhelpful. While
it does have a high-security wing Melzer said that Assange was not in
that section.

The lawyer, who receives 10 to 15 requests each day from sources asking
for him to get involved, said that his office had been approached by
Assange’s lawyers in December. But he said that he was initially
reluctant to do so, admitting he was affected by what he called the
“prejudice” around the case.

However, he began looking into the case again in March and, earlier this
week, wrote letters to the foreign ministers of the US, the UK and
Sweden.

“In the course of the past nine years, Mr Assange has been exposed to
persistent, progressively severe abuse ranging from systematic judicial
persecution and arbitrary confinement in the Ecuadorian embassy, to his
oppressive isolation, harassment and surveillance inside the embassy,
and from deliberate collective ridicule, insults and humiliation, to
open instigation of violence and even repeated calls for his
assassination,” Melzer will say on Friday.

He added the UK authorities had contacted his Geneva office to indicate
that the British government would be issuing a point-by-point rebuttal
of the assertions made in his letter.

Melzer, who is urging the UK government not to extradite Assange to the
US or to any other state failing to provide reliable guarantees against
his onward transfer to the US, criticised the way in which Assange’s
case was handled after police took him from the embassy.

“I was surprised, for example, to see that on the date he was arrested
he was immediately brought to court after six years in the embassy and
then convicted. Under the normal rule of law you would expect someone to
be 

Re: Guardian Live on Assange's arrest

[Nina Temporär]

> Am 15.04.2019 um 14:04 schrieb podinski :
> 
> I was hoping more women might weigh in here... ( with all the possible
> anger flying from the personal life scandal loops ... and there is one
> potent feminist angle that seems more unavoidable than others ... That
> if the US extradition now takes priority over the 7 year brouhaha of
> Sweden's supposed case, then it displays a extra patriarchal
> discrimination, from all those who believed in it, or at least pretended
> to. )

Oh Paolo…seriously? Projecting onto women that solely personal emotions
Are the reason for them to potentially raise their voices? And euphemizing 
sexist 
Experiences as their own „life scandal loops“? And actually believing women are
Only interested in „women’s topics“ / justice for women in this very ambivalent 
and
Complex equation that women are very well able to see at least as 
differentiated 
As men do?

Just a hint, what I have recently heard what women are actually very selflessly
Concerned about was rather

- That sexism and narcissism are still the most underrated security 
vulnerabilities
- That anyone still trying to ignore that and blame it on the victims instead 
is actively 
   hurting press freedom and the fight against a surveillance state
- That democracy and the daily fight for restoring it cannot afford men anymore 
in 
  endangered positions who have only stone age social and gender expertise
- That personality cult results in loss of contact with reality and inability 
of acceptance 
  of criticism in the hyped person so that the most symbolic person of a 
movement is
  most likely to become its weakest point
- That it doesn’t take a narcissist to kill a narcissist but just a book of the 
same name
- That a legal system that enables the abuse of smaller complaints like those 
about sexist 
  assaults as easy entry for the prosecution of more severe indictable offences 
is actually 
  hurting women’s rights and the cause for more justice for women, as it has a 
chilling effect 
  for the decision to call the police when actually needed

Freedom for the whistleblowers, yes.
But NO to „being targeted“ as a new excuse for blatant sexism and victim 
blaming.

N
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Re: rage against the machine

[Nina Temporär]

"Rage against machines“ - 
what a perfect alternative title for Article 13 , the new EU Copyright 
Directive that is up for vote next week,
Especially given the extra twist that it is machines executing the human hatred 
on technology’s contribution to
enhanced memetic evolution, of which humans foremost fear that it will reduce 
them to underpaid prompters 
(„You will not replace us“) and demask the notorious concept of the lone 
inventor.

If you’re hot on reflecting on the implementation of automated control systems, 
how about switching to 
Discussing upload filters? :) (Or was here maybe some discussion on that 
already that I missed?)

It seems that if Art. 13 gets passed and automatic scans for resemblances to 
already existing creations will  be
Installed, any ideas attempting to enter the system will soon be treated as 
potential enemies….

T h a t  will be the moment from when on Morlock Elloi will be very right:There 
will be computation -  before 
we’ll be even able to talk capitalism or democracy,


N


> Am 19.03.2019 um 03:24 schrieb Brian Holmes :
> 
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 3:25 PM tbyfield  > wrote:
>  
> It seems like Morlock, who I'd bet has forgotten more about AI than Brian 
> knows, is using it in a loose 'cultural' way; whereas Brian, whose 
> bailiwick is cultural, intends AI in a more ~technical way.
> 
> Ted, I like how you look at disputes from all sides, both for the intrinsic 
> interest of the meta-discussion, and because you put a finger on the very 
> existence of the dispute. For me it boils down to the old question about 
> critique, what it is, how it works, why anyone would engage in such a thing.
> 
> What I care about here is not AI, nor culture in the literary and artistic 
> sense, but attention to reality in a time when lots of things are going 
> wrong. Reality is hard to grasp: you have to look at the relation of human 
> actors with technical systems in a dynamic situations shaped by environmental 
> factors as well conflicting strategic aims. The Boeing case has all that, 
> it's typical of the present. Can such problems be resolved? Or do we just 
> vent our rage against the machine?
> 
> In Morlock's writing I see two things: a justified critique of the reckless 
> speed with which automated control systems are being implemented, plus the 
> continual escalation of an aggressive rhetoric that blurs any distinction 
> whatsoever. The larger cultural/political context and the interplay of 
> conflicting strategies get left out of this entirely: according to his own 
> declarations, things like capitalism or democracy don't exist for Morlock, 
> only computation. That's a tendentially know-nothing approach, and when he 
> throws out any attempt to deal with the technical systems, what's left is the 
> inflammatory rhetoric. There's a good reason not to like it at this 
> particular moment, when every serious attempt at government is blocked by 
> outraged expressions of passions via networked media.
> 
> The story that emerges from the Max 8 crashes is not that the pilots were 
> looking for a fire axe to smash the AI. Instead, most of them were fully 
> aware of the problem. Acting collectively, they shared their knowledge and 
> learned to turn off the poorly conceived patch that was supposed to make up 
> for a bad design. They were struggling against automation, for sure. But they 
> were also struggling against the strategy of a corporation that would do 
> anything to boost its profits -- in this case, first by building a more 
> fuel-efficient plane that wants to nose-dive on take-off, and second, by 
> claiming that crews wouldn't even need training to fly such a thing. 
> Fortunately, the pilots still paid some attention to reality.
> 
> I respect their craft, I'm alive because of it. And you know, unlikely as it 
> may seem, I look for something analogous in discursive spaces like this one. 
> What lurks behind computation and the illusions of control is something more 
> elemental: a compulsive form of greed that denies the fundamentally suicidal 
> nature of its short-term successes. I stand for a critique of the relations 
> between capitalism and complex systems.
> 
> thanks for the meta, Brian
> 
> 
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Re: tiqqun: nein danke

[Nina Temporär]

:) 

"The Man-Child wants you to know that you should not take him too seriously, 
except when you should. At any given moment, he wants to you to take him only 
as seriously as he wants to be taken. When he offends you, he was kidding. When 
he means it, he means it. What he says goes.

Thanks, those sentences had slipped my attention, gold indeed.

Also a good read: „She’s just not that into you“, Nina Power's review of 
Tiqqun’s „Preliminary Materials for a Theory of the Young-Girl“: 
https://www.radicalphilosophy.com/reviews/individual-reviews/rp177-shes-just-not-that-into-you
 


"Behind every Young-Girl’s arse hides a bunch of rich white men: the task is 
surely not, then, to destroy the Young-Girl, but to destroy the system that 
makes her."



> Am 12.11.2018 um 14:28 schrieb Julia Röder :
> 
> no mention of tiqqun should go by without a revisit of this piece of gold
> 
> https://thenewinquiry.com/further-materials-toward-a-theory-of-the-man-child/ 
> 
> 
> 
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Yes please - was: Nein, danke [was Re: Inhabit: Instructions for Autonomy]

[Nina Temporär]

Oh nice, a smelling [con]test. Want to participate.

It’s very sweet how much effort you put into analysing this „piece of work“,
Probably wanting to be on the right side on this one. It’s very honorable you 
want to find 
The fly after not seeing the elephant. (Sorry, couldn’t help myself going for 
this one. ;))

But why didn’t anyone simply do some actual research before making the effort 
of scouring their mental 
Image libraries equipped with knowledge that potentially isn’t compatible with 
the younger generations’ 
((mainstream-meets-counter-culture-meshup)) aesthetics anymore?

To be fair, as someone raised in Germany, it’s also my first reaction to go 
yikes when I see 1930s fonts 
Combined with such warfare imagery and fuzzy pseudo-theory.

On the other hand it’s common knowledge that the re-appropriation of fascist 
aesthetics is already last 
Decade’s news. „Fascist“ haircuts have been en vogue again for ages, just as 
well as similar fonts which 
Have been used, for example, by mainstream art institutions like Volksbuehne 
Berlin and Kunsthalle Vienna, 
Which are not exactly under suspicion for being right wing.

And even though such paramilitary kind of anarchism usually doesn’t appeal to 
me, I have seen how the 
American antifa dresses up when currently going to protests - shields and all. 
I mean, no surprise,
Trump’s reaction to Charlottesville was an open call to regard them as fair 
game.
And this also relates to those who didn’t choose to "be political" in the first 
place, but who involuntarily
Got thrown into being state enemy number one just by birth, gender, religion, 
etc. Imagine all you want to
Do is going skating, like any other teenager or twen. And you don’t live in 
Saudi-Arabia, but a country that
P r o m I s e d  you could. Wouldn’t you set up your protest with the deepest 
contempt you can possibly 
Express, which would be applying all of your skills to do it the most powerful 
way know: With the dignity of
Aesthetic radicality, in other words, w I t h  s t y l e ?

This style - that is this generation’s Tyler Durden. (So yes: Fight Club.) It’s 
this generation’s Willow-going-
full-on--black-eyes. It’s Sarah Connor’s determination meeting the reality of 
Rojava - and yet not minding 
instagramming it.

So the results of my research are:
While one cannot exactly know what the makers of the „pamphlet“ really think, 
the people who post
In an appreciative way about the website / booklet on social media

- advocate events with Kimberly Crenshaw, Dorothy Roberts and Anita Hill
- bragg about IWW belts as birthday presents
- shout #makeracistsafraidagain 
- promote phone numbers of legal teams before the „fight gainst white supremacy“
- share booklets on Black resistance and on Dis/Ability Topics written by 
Muslim Women of Trans Experience
- celebrate Murray Bookchin (hilarious pic)
- chant „MAGA - Make AmeriKKKa go away“, 
- call themselves „experimental anti-fascist hip hopers“ and their music 
„revolutionary new anarchistic hiphop“,
- agree with Karl Popper’s Paradox of Tolerance (yes that one that says no to 
Nazis)
- and they announce workshops for civil disobedience in relation to #abolishICE.

I didn’t copy the links because I didn’t want to expose the accounts of 
individuals - the nettime archive is public. 
So in case they are serious and not just hipsters wanting to look dangerous and 
accidentally end up depoliticizing a
Certain public atmosphere by aesthetization, as it was suspected here, it might 
not be helpful to them to keep 
Discussing it here.

Best N










> Am 11.11.2018 um 23:47 schrieb tbyfield :
> 
> I'd be happy to be wrong about that site, and if I am I'll acknowledge it as 
> plainly as I answered Angela's question about fascist recruiting.
> 
> If a cartoon neo-nazi posted a message to this list saying "I'm a fascist and 
> I'm recruiting!" there wouldn't be much need for debate. But someone actually 
> did post a manifesto C from a site put together by people who find Nazi 
> aesthetics somehow 'resonant' or 'inspiring,' and a bunch of nettimers want 
> to have scholastic debates.
> 
> Ian Alan Paul wrote:
> 
>> Unfortunately I don't have the time to fully respond to every claim of this
>> larger analysis/investigation except to simply say that I think the
>> projection of a white male subject onto a collectively written text (which
>> has happened twice now) is a tired critique of militancy that isn't helpful
>> in the sense that it actively erases the explicitly feminist movements
>> which have adopted and practiced similar kinds of political thought. Of
>> course it's fine to be critical of militant politics, and indeed we must be
>> having these kinds of debates more often, but to do so on the grounds that
>> there is something irrevocably masculine about militancy is to simply echo
>> right wing talking points about gender.
> 
> Ian, if you want to argue that I projected white male subjectivity onto a 
> picture of two white guys 

Campus Berlin / Re: back to normal

[Nina Temporär]

> Am 10.11.2018 um 20:58 schrieb Morlock Elloi :
> 
> GOOG has been offered Stasi building for Berlin HQ:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrojODFXgAAMPK-.jpg 
> 
Hm, looks like some of the protesters might end up in a moral conflict because 
of this… ;)

Btw, I couldn’t find one single newspaper correctly analysing the situation.
https://www.gloreiche.de/presseclipping/google-campus/ 

(International press review)

Actually the protesters didn’t win, but google delivered a perfect media stunt:

The truth is google nevertheless pumps 14 million into renovating the building, 
remains
The main tenant, just gives the space away for 5 years, and only invited 2 
handpicked 
And google-friendly organisations to what they advertise as „social center“. 
One of them is a „google impact“ laureate, the other one gets depicted as 
social fundraiser 
Platform while not mentioning its other end of the tail with a think tank 
promoting to shift social 
Responsibility to the private sector. I guess the advertising agency 
specialising in „experiential 
Marketing“ that the fundraiser works with has recommended that sharing a space 
with an institution
Hosting 15 homeless teenagers makes for the best 3D experience for its stock 
holders.
Perfect example of social washing, not backing down.

Funny enough, though, the fact that the protesters can yet capture some kind of 
victory from this,
derives from that obviously neither journalists nor politicians are using a 
search engine for vetting 
the news google’s marketing department delivers to them :)#  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
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Re: Fascist "trolls," meta

[Nina Temporär]

Brilliant, thanks. Looking forward to read the links.
And glad you went „meta“ and pulled this off with a certain authority, not 
allowing him to make you react to his/their game, 
In which they eternally try to assign to you either the part of a self-pitying, 
worthless victim, or that of an evil inhibitor of 
Access to their democratic rights. (No further comments needed at this point 
why both is strategically repeated nonsense.)

> Am 06.11.2018 um 23:31 schrieb Angela Mitropoulos :
> 
> As briefly as possible, responses to various threads/remarks bundled up below:
> 
> I've been on this list since, I think, 2003. This was the first time I've 
> ever suggested someone be thrown off. As someone else noted, times have 
> changed; but also, I can spot a fascist set of talking points because I've 
> learned how to do that. It's a skill, learn it, it might save someone's life 
> in a context where fascist trolling is also about inciting and legitimating 
> violence against Jews, black people, women, transpeople, migrants. 
> https://medium.com/@DeoTasDevil/the-rhetoric-tricks-traps-and-tactics-of-white-nationalism-b0bca3caeb84
>  
> <https://medium.com/@DeoTasDevil/the-rhetoric-tricks-traps-and-tactics-of-white-nationalism-b0bca3caeb84>
>  
> 
> I do not need to debate fascists to know that they exist, to understand how 
> they think, or to fight their influence. Including them in online spaces has 
> the effect of undermining the involvement of critical voices in those spaces. 
> 
> I think it's an egotistical indulgence to believe one can "debunk" fascism. 
> It isn't just an innocuous or discomforting idea in a "marketplace of ideas," 
> but--as an idea regarding the purported fundamental inferiority of groups of 
> people--an idea that pushes toward restructuring the space and terms of 
> involvement in debate by destroying the assumption of equality.
> 
> This is the reason why antifascists have insisted on a policy of 
> no-platforming. Not all trolls are fascists, but all fascists are trolls. 
> Everyone lies, but fascists lie as a matter of course because it feeds their 
> sense of supremacy. So, fascists will of course whisper in your ear about 
> Marx, "identity politics," and "the white working class," as Bannon has done 
> (this is playbook). They are all sleaze and bullshit, like Trump, even if it 
> comes wrapped in faux-high theory to flatter the Nettime set. On the problem 
> of dismissing fascists as just trolls: 
> https://www.vox.com/2016/11/23/13659634/alt-right-trolling 
> <https://www.vox.com/2016/11/23/13659634/alt-right-trolling> 
> 
> I think anyone who invokes Marx's name in support of a 'class first' position 
> is a charlatan. I am confident in saying this because I've done a lot of work 
> to be able to say it with confidence. Put another way, I'm prepared to wager 
> than of the 4k subscribers to this list, I've read more Marx more often over 
> many years. Those who wave Marx's name over reactionary positions are 
> performing a deference to a mystical patriarchal authority, while at the same 
> treating Marx's writings with utter disdain. I have criticisms of Marx, sure, 
> because I treat him as a writer, not a cult figure. 
> 
> The practice of using black women as deflector shields to defend from 
> possible criticism of racism and misogyny is a media strategy loved by the 
> far Right. Ironically, it trades on the crudest kind of 'identity politics' 
> by implying that if x (Candace Owens, whatever) hold a position then it could 
> not possibly be racist or sexist. It's a version of "but I have a black 
> female friend" defense. It is an ad hominem in reverse, not an argument about 
> anything. 
> 
> I wrote this some time ago on the media's fascination with Nazi profile 
> pieces: https://s0metim3s.com/2017/12/05/arendt-banality-nazism/ 
> <https://s0metim3s.com/2017/12/05/arendt-banality-nazism/> 
> 
> This is a concise account of why you cannot "debunk" fascism:
> https://lithub.com/fascism-is-not-an-idea-to-be-debated-its-a-set-of-actions-to-fight/
>  
> <https://lithub.com/fascism-is-not-an-idea-to-be-debated-its-a-set-of-actions-to-fight/>
> 
> This is on fascist creeping, a handy term imo: 
> https://truthout.org/articles/exposing-and-defeating-the-fascist-creep/ 
> <https://truthout.org/articles/exposing-and-defeating-the-fascist-creep/> 
> 
> Another handy term is "red-brown," which refers to a reactionary impulse on 
> what passes for the Left to align with fascists, and people who presumably 
> think that this time around they won't be murdered in a Night of the Long 
> Knives after they've served their purpose of consolidating support for 
> fa

Re: apropos of nothing

[Nina Temporär]

With all genuine due respect to Ted and Felix for the amount of work that comes 
with it -
And with appreciation for your reflections on what needs to be changed, Ted, 
that came in while I was writing this - 
How can you seriously all repeat your trust in the moderation poiicies after 
what happened?

AB’s mails kept coming, even after the super concise and easy-to-grasp comments 
of Alice and Ian
Had indicated in which direction AB was going -
While my criticism of AB’s behaviour was held back for several hours?

So now that we know that you actively put people on a „moderated status“ I need 
to ask:

A Nazi gets granted that status only after a long week and many hate mails with 
many crossed lines, but I was already 
On moderated status….for what exactly? 

For softly criticising Felix a few months ago, funny enough, on a related 
topic, when he totally out of the blue used the 
Defence of a women as a line of argumentation against someone else? 

(Cornelia Sollfrank had posted an online petition, Alexandre Carvalho had 
replied online petitions „do shitz“, but in no 
Way attacked Cornelia - and believe me, had he done so, I would have been there 
for her. I agreed with Felix on his general
Comments but called employing a defence of Cornelia to lash out Against 
Alexandre a bit of a „poor stunt“, pointing out that 
„Men mostly use this as an argument when trying to discredit other men whose 
opinions they don’t share or whose territories 
They wish to annex“. 
If you were serious with your concerns, Felix, that this list doesn’t encourage 
women enough to speak, why didn’t you answer me or engage in the AB case early 
enough?)

Or was it my following comment in the same mail that I seriously worried if all 
hope was lost on this list in relation to online 
Activism, and that it felt like everyone has succumbed to a pessimism that only 
engages in reactive analyses anymore and Professionalising one’s expertise for 
the education market?

Rendering this into a general question:

Isn’t maybe a fully unmoderated list, 
Or an algorithm doing the job 
(That probably would have grabbed AB by his extinction-endangered balls 
immediately), 
Better than a system
That is only as good as the gender/race literacy and sensitivity of its 
moderators, 
Respectively as the sensitivity of their egos?

(Yes, I am a big fan of "Auge/Maschine" by Harun Farocki, and its accidental, 
unintended message:
Humans appear as annoying, loud, clumsy creatures, while the machines softly, 
calmly and tenderly
Do their job, only what they are asked to do, and nothing on top of it. ;))

Best, N


> Am 06.11.2018 um 13:44 schrieb Jo M2M  >:
> 
> Yes, the fundamental question lurking in any collective is "who cleans the 
> toilet?".
> 
> --
> * please, don't other me *
> 
> Jo van der Spek M2M
> v. Ostadestraat 49
> 1072SN Amsterdam
> http://schipholbrand.net dinsdag, 06 november 
> 2018, 00:19p.m. +01:00 van Andreas Broeckmann a...@mikro.in-berlin.de 
> :
> 
> friends, i'm an active lurker on this list since 1996; my answer to 
> angela's question ("What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should 
> give fascists a platform from which to recruit?") would be that 
> "nettime" probably doesn't have a "policy" on anything, other than the 
> openness to questions; i'm sure there are people here who can put this 
> in a more nuanced theoretical language, but i imagine the list and the 
> discourse it supports as "in flux" and as something that takes its shape 
> through the things that people write, and through the ways in which they 
> respond to each other. - in the given case, the point for me would be 
> not to ask what some (general) "policy" might be, but to state clearly 
> and concretely that i'm against allowing anything that smacks of fascist 
> trolling or recruitment. a statement like this constitutes the quality 
> of this list which has, as its "policy", only a certain, vague 
> collective spirit which requires critical voices like angela's to 
> express their opinion. therefore: i support ted's decision to moderate 
> some of the contributions since, given 22 years of trust-building, i 
> believe he is acting in the spirit of the list and the discourse it 
> serves to constitute.
> (not sure whether this is an answer to julia's question.)
> regards,
> -a
> 
> 
> Am 05.11.18 um 01:57 schrieb Julia Röder:
> > about that
> > 
> > > dear angela,
> > > relax dear.
> > > it is ok.
> > > noone is recruiting anyone here.
> > > chill.
> > > best,
> > > w
> > 
> > so, is that it? silence about this from the whole list except from angela?
> > do you all not say anything because you think this is trolling or this 
> > is normal??
> > 
> > 
> >  Message: 1
> >  Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 11:12:54 +1100
> >  From: Angela Mitropoulos  > 
> >  >
> > To: Nettime mailto:nettim...@kein.org> >
> > Subject: Re: apropos of nothing

Re: Complexity and nostalgia

[Nina Temporär]

Wow, nettime’s very own James Damore moment -
And hardly anyone calls him out.

I cannot believe how easily so many people here allowed A.B. to 
intellectually-click-bait 
them into a discussion just because he whispered the magic words „Marx“ and 
„class“,
And willingly delivered him material to refine his language for his 
pseudo-philosophical
White male ängst-driven project,
Even after he had already lashed out in a dangerously generalized way against 
academia,
After he had already generally denounced identity politics as self-pity and 
whining, after he
Had claimed gender & race as having no social realities, after he had judged 
the welfare 
State as an infantilization of society and, on top of all, had totally 
ridiculously indulged himself 
In a teenage-like invention rage of cock-culture-worshipping neologisms that he 
obviously enjoys
To decorate his little short-20th-Century binary phantasy land with.

While a few of the answers with serious reactions to the classism question were 
really a 
Pleasure to read and very much worth considering under different premises, I 
don’t understand 
why almost nobody here (except for Alice, Ian, and Florian - thanks for your 
interventions) did see 
The contradiction that the very same people he claims to be wanting to work 
with in that new class 
War he dreams of, get insulted so badly and in a hierarchy-reproducing manner, 
that a future
Cooperation is being boycotted before it has even started.

Is that really only a sad lack of strategic thinking? Or not rather revealing 
how inclusive his
New class war phantasy actually is, and whose perspective he expects to be 
adopted as
Conceptual lead? 

There is a big difference between disagreement and lashing out in a way that 
reveals absolute
Entitlement, and even worse: the assumption to be „safe“ when stating such 
stuff in a place
Like nettime mailing list.

It’s so tiring to be forced to point out, once more, that entitlement is key in 
this problematic:

While Alexander and his followers have very well understood that investing into 
digital literacy
Is an absolute necessity if they want to survive in these times, any knowledge 
update in relation to
Gender & anti-racism debates is shrugged of as community-specific expertise 
(and commented 
With the reproach of having an only self-healing effect) instead of understood 
as the fundamental,
Constitutive (not so new) change of perspective, without which no thorough 
analysis of class 
Struggle can withstand. 

It was really interesting to read Dan’s report/ analysis of the beginning of 
‚identity politics‘ in the US
(In Europe, I assume, this is a slightly different story) and his 
acknowledgement/ claim that it is his 
Generation's own fault not to have passed on the historic context to the next 
generation.
I would really like to engage in this discussion by asking if it is really 
about the lack of history in a 
Negative sense, or, if the (assumed) lack of history/ continuity might not be 
expression of a generally
Positive phenomenon: the attitude of a generation being sick of any kind of 
further waiting and gradual 
Development, legitimately bold enough to demand full acceptance here and now - 
even if this leads to 
A roundhouse-kick-radicality that sometimes feels moralizing and partly unfair 
even to antecedent
activists. (And no, I am not part of that generation and often enough annoyed 
myself, but try to 
Understand.)

I’m not keen of discussing it in a context, though, where Alexander Bard can 
blatantly display his near-hatred 
Anger on certain minority activism without being sanctioned, just days after a 
shooting in a synagogue and 
Lethal threats to critics of Trump, with daily Police brutality towards POC, 
regular attacks on homes for asylum 
Seekers in Germany, harassment of anti-Trump academics in the US and similar 
harassments of academics 
Criticising right-wing politics now - even structurally organised - by the AfD 
in Germany as well, and ongoing 
And normalised discrimination of and assaults on women.
Incitement to violence is a spark easily ignited these days.

Last but not least, I have the impression A.B. never really had to speak up for 
himself against a mainstream
Opinion, otherwise he would know how much courage it takes and that it is no 
way just 'fighting for one’s 
Own good‘ but helps numerous others affected by that norm, and that keeping 
quiet and adapting, even at 
The high price of ongoing unfair treatment, is often the easier way.

It seems to be necessary to point out that repeating just a mainstream opinion, 
once it is tumbling and 
Forced to open up to multi-perspective views, does  n o t  count as such.

Best, N
Ps: Alice and Ian, your mails arrived while I wrote this, thanks again


> Am 03.11.2018 um 18:30 schrieb Brian Holmes :

> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 7:11 AM Felix Stalder  > wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018, 6:07 AM Alexander Bard   wrote:
> 

#  

Re: Google Campus Occupied

[Nina Temporär]

already expelled again

https://twitter.com/besetzenberlin
 

Gesendet: Freitag, 07. September 2018 um 15:44 Uhr
Von: "Ian Alan Paul" 
An: "a moderated mailing list for net criticism" 
Betreff:  Google Campus Occupied




The new Google campus being built in Kreuzberg, Berlin has been occupied by the neighborhood. You can follow along here: https://mastodon.social/@FuckOffGoogle



 




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Re: Athens: Plato’s Academy and its neighborhood are at risk!

[Nina Temporär]

Hi all,

Felix, allthough I generally agree with you in both points,
„Even" I as a woman think that the suspicion about a gender-related motivation 
was a
Bit of a poor stunt. (Men mostly use this as an argument when trying to 
discredit
Other men whose opinions they don’t share or whose territories they wish to 
annex.)

But not even the question around violence as a valid means of resistance seems 
to be the
Crucial point here.

Much more worrysome to me is the fact that someone does actually believe he can 
gain
Credits on nettime mailing list, by calling for a fully analogue kind of 
protest.

So I need to ask:
Are the tendencies in these group so clear-cut anti-internet meanwhile that all 
hope is lost?
Is everyone so stuck in the shock about the lack of fulfilment of their dreams 
from the 90s that
they’ve given up and succumbed to a pessimism which  - instead of looking for 
new options -
Is mostly consisting of reactive analyses to acts of (simply spoken) those in 
charge and having
Professionalized their expertise in the field for the education market?

Seriously wondering,
Hints welcome.

Best N.


> Am 14.06.2018 um 12:22 schrieb Alexandre Carvalho :
> 
> 
> Dear Felix;
> 
> 
> I appreciate the reply. And will attempt to debunk your answer that 
> collective self-defense is wrong in many levels.
> 
> First with equating resistance with the extreme violence that this system, 
> everyday, employes to keep everything and everyone in their place. It is a 
> privileged position, one that claims to derive from a reading of historical 
> record, when actually history tells us that only a people that is untammed 
> and ungovernable will shake the foundations of the oppressive systems that 
> hold their spirit hostage.
> 
> There is one book that, for its small size, impressed me on the numerous ways 
> it turns the tables around on this issue. “How-non violence protects the 
> state” by Peter Gelderloos. The author makes a strong point how pacifism is 
> the same as “pacified”, controllable, and ultimately innefective.
> 
> Chapter 5 is poetry. Here in audiobook form:
> 
> https://youtu.be/fbNlCfd72a4 
> 
> But the best argument against this position you hold, since to you it comes 
> from a position of misogyny, is by a woman of “color, poor and peripheral”, 
> in her own words. It is a short movie  that was screened at the 2018 NYC 
> Anarchist Bookfair this past weekend called “MEU NOME E SIMONE”. She makes a 
> great argument for collective self defense and fearlessness and lays out a 
> critique of capital and the state from below. Here it is:
> 
> https://youtu.be/GeBevnhsK4Y 
> 
> Otherwise, much love, and good luck with the petition.
> 
> A.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 5:13 AM Felix Stalder  > wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Alexandre,
> 
> my reply is late, because I was busy and hoped that someone else would
> reply, but nobody has and nettime is the home of the slow it's still
> time  say something.
> 
> I think your mail was exceptionally wrong. On numerous levels.
> 
> First, it was a classic example of some guy feeling entitled to
> take a piss at a women who is vastly more competent than he is. And this
> within a space where the gender balance is already extremely, well,
> unbalanced. So, that's radical.
> 
> Second, you don't seem to understand politics as we move into a more
> authoritarian realities. The state, and the elites, like street-level
> violence, because it makes it easy to brand their opponents as '
> anti-social' or 'terrorists' and bring out the full force of the
> militarized state to crush them under the applause of a fearful majority.
> 
> Third, leaving random calls for violence in public fora is potentially
> really harmful, not just for you but to the wider range of people
> involved in the specific forum.
> 
> 
> Felix
> 
> 
> 
> On 2018-06-10 11:56, Alexandre Carvalho wrote:
> >
> >
> > Online petitions do shitz.
> <...>
> 
> --
> 
>  | http://felix.openflows.com 
> 
>  |OPEN PGP:  https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=0x0C9FF2AC 
> 
> 
> #  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
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> nett...@kein.org 
> #  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
> --
> Sent from my subjectivity
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> #  more info: 

Re: Reflections on Florian Cramer & Angela Nagle discussion

[Nina Temporär]

Thanks  - tldr yet - but to link it to the discussion from before,  LD50 
Gallery and Nick Land and the question
If it’s right to attack a fascist gallery get directly mentioned at 64:22

> Am 05.03.2018 um 15:27 schrieb David Garcia 
> :
> 
> Florian Cramer & Angela Nagle at Transmedialle - 
> 
> Reflections on Don’t Think Twice- Subcultures and the Politics of 
> Transgression  
> 
> This year’s Transmedialle featured a very valuable discussion between Media 
> Theorist, Florian Cramer and writer and author of Kill all Normies Angela 
> Nagle. Though riveting it was very long with a great many digressions. So 
> this is just scratching the surface extracting some of the things that 
> interested me. There is plenty more to explore and take further. 
> 
> Discussion extracts + commentary
> 
> Nagle begins by describinh her book as being about the on-line culture wars 
> of the last 8 years, that culminated in the emergence of the identitarian 
> white nationalists widely known as the alt-right. Cramer didn’t introduce his 
> lecture but most people will know that it was given in Rotterdam just after 
> Trump’s election and traced in great detail the origins of the alt-right, as 
> it took shape in the back alleys of the internet messaage boards and the 
> complex ways in which these subcultural energies were oportunistically 
> exploited by a generation of very far right white nationalists. In the 
> lecture Cramer used his capability as media theorist to trace in detail the 
> evolution and importance of memes (and by inference the significance of 
> Girrard’s theory of Memetic desire) and the effective weaponisation of 
> 4chan’s distinctive culture of cynical irony.
> 
> Both Nagle began by emphasising the bias of the Birmingham School (and the 
> wider European left) in favour of Transgressive sub-cultures as an 
> intrinsically progressive force. Both Cramer’s lecture and Nagle’s book call 
> out the media theorists and digital anthropologists who allowed this bias in 
> the field of cultural studies and media theory which are blamed for 
> insufficient attention to the direction of travel of the so called alt right.
> 
>   -The Centrality of Feminist Critique-
> 
> An important aspect of Nagle’s contribution was her emphasis on the absolute 
> centrality of feminist critique to her insights. She credits Angela Mcrobbie 
> Sarah Thornton’s longstanding critiques of the Birmingham school’s tendency 
> of  to mistake certain kinds of aesthetic traits for something progressive 
> politically. Nagle goes on to quote Sarah Thornton’s The Social logic of 
> sub-cultural capital.. at length stating that it encapsulated the core 
> argument of her book. (published in 1995) 
> 
>  “vague opposition is certainly how many members of youth sub-cultures 
> characterise their own activity. However we can’t take youth discourses 
> literally. They are not a transparent window on the world many cultural 
> studies have made the mistake of doing this. They have been insufficiently 
> critical of sub-cultural ideologies. Firstly because they were diverted by 
> the task of puncturing and contesting dominant ideology and second because 
> their biases have tended to agree with anti-mass society discourses of the 
> youth discourses they study”“ while youth have celebrated underground the 
> academics have venerated sub-cultures. While young people have denounced the 
> commercial, scholars have criticised hegemony. While one has lamented selling 
> out the other has theorised incorporation. In this way the Birmingham 
> tradition has both over politicised youthful leisure and at the same time 
> ignored the subtle relations at play within it” (Sarah Thornton)
> 
> Nagle staes is essentially the argument of her book that "there are quite 
> reactionary and quite misanthropic and quite nasty elements that were there 
> for a very long time in this on-line world and it came to full fruition in 
> the form of the Alt.right.."  
> 
>  -A well Established Story –
> 
> Cramer brought up the fact that this was not new and that various examples of 
> European avant-garde expressions from Laibach to Peter Soto’s magazine Pure. 
> And emphasised how the shock value of the transgressive is a “double edge 
> sword” and that this is a very old subject.  "There is a recurring naivete in 
> seeing transgressions or sub-cultures as embracing just one political 
> orientation…: He reminds us that Adorno and Hokheimer in the Dialectics of 
> Enlightenment is at least in part an investigation into how progressive 
> discourse turns into barbarism.
> 
>  - A Complete Re-orientation of the Political Landscape-
> 
>  Cramer goes on to explore the important wider picture when he points out 
> that the there are two strategies running in parallel by the so called 
> Altright (that has now morphed from a sub-culture into a fully fledged 
> political movement). One is to take over counterculture, 

Re: 1994, Visions Of Heaven and Hell

[Nina Temporär]

Richard,

Thanks a lot for the links! 

I am not asking for your opinion from `95/`98, though - that’s indeed a great 
epochal text, but a position which is meanwhile common knowledge.

So I had actually hoped you might have an updated opinion on that from a more 
present-day perspective, with not only ongoing debates  
On net culture & activism, identity politics and artistic research, but 
actually even more the  e f f e c t s  of these debates  - which have entered 
The meatspace through academia [sic] - giving the opportunity to refine such an 
approach?

See, I agree with almost everything you write there. The hippie equivalence of 
Nietzsche’s superhuman: That’s of course what I meant when 
Mentioning Foucault’s Nietzscheanism - a connection that has been thoroughly 
researched meanwhile also by other scholars. 

Where that approach is flawed, though, is, that you can’t mix up art & 
intellectualism in the way you do. You can indeed say that intellectuals
Foster a certain project  l i k e  an art project. But speaking of D/G and the 
theory of schizo-politics as „right wing" fails to see that „art“ - and a schizo
Reality - is not just  a „project" for artists, but a cognitive and thus 
physical reality, just like being poor is. So, despite of all valid criticism 
of the holy fool 
As a rogue position at the edge of society being very pro-capitalist etc., you 
cannot reduce it to just that. That totally lacks to see the value D/G’s 
research 
Has for artists and fails to take the value of artistic thinking and actual 
daily (academic) life experiences of artists into consideration. 

I am not saying that because I am high on identity politics - on the contrary - 
but because just as much as there is a certain elitist agenda behind 
Promoting identity politics in the curricula of art academies while neglecting 
basically  a n y  debate about classist struggles, there also is a certain 
Theory-friendly elitism behind devaluating D/G simply with the pro-capitalist 
anti-intellectualism reproach. 

Classim is not the only classism in the world, there are many versions of it, 
and non-visual thinking is an elitism still highly lacking any self-criticism - 
for obvious reasons. (How can those speak up against this for whom it’s hard to 
speak?)

We „artist-engineers" are so bored to be told what we „must“ do by 
intellectuals - no matter what side they are from.

From our perspective any social theory within the art field is a fake + empty 
blob blablabla’ed into the realm of the aesthetics, where the least real life 
effect
Is demanded, just to build up careers. 

So to us, the „theoretical“ is just as evil as the „virtual“ (or as little), 
and D/G are sure not the most alarming among the villains.

Best
N



> Am 02.03.2018 um 17:16 schrieb Richard Barbrook 
> :
> 
> Hiya,
> 
>>> We did warn you that Deleuze and Guattari were
>>> the class enemy! 
> 
>> But could you elaborate on this one please?
> 
> This is the wall poster which me and Andy Cameron wrote
> to provoke the Deleuzoguattarians at Nick Land's Virtual
> Futures '95 conference:
> http://www.imaginaryfutures.net/2007/04/15/basic-banalities-by-richard-barbrook-and-andy-cameron/
> 
> Here's my 1998 diatribe against the anti-proletarian po-mo 
> philosophers:
> http://www.imaginaryfutures.net/2007/04/14/the-holy-fools/
> http://www.imaginaryfutures.net/2007/04/13/the-holy-fools-long-mix-by-richard-barbrook/
> 
> Richard
> 
> ===
> 
> Dr. Richard Barbrook
> Dept of Politics and IR,
> University of Westminster
> 32-38 Wells Street
> LONDON W1T 3UW
> England
> 
> +44 (0)7879 441873
> 
> Skype: richard.barbrook
> Facebook: Richard Barbrook
> Twitter: @richardbarbrook
> 
> http://www.gamesforthemany.org
> http://www.cybersalon.org
> http://www.classwargames.net
> http://www.politicsandmediafreedom.net
> http://www.imaginaryfutures.net
> http://www.imaginaryfutures.net/other-works
> 
> 'Clause 5: That as the laws ought to be equal, so 
> they must be good, and not evidently destructive 
> to the safety and well-being of the people.' 
> 
> The Levellers, The 1647 Agreement of the People 
> for a Firm and Present Peace Upon Grounds of 
> Common Right.
> 

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Re: 1994, Visions Of Heaven and Hell

[Nina Temporär]

> Am 02.03.2018 um 16:49 schrieb Callum Copley :
> 
> Hi all, first replying via nettime, hope this works.
> 
> I too have found some of his thinking very interesting at times but upon 
> learning the extent of his political views I refuse to engage with his work
> 
> See below:
> 
> "Nick Land advocates for racially based absolutist micro-states, where 
> unregulated capitalism combines with genetic separation between global elites 
> and the ‘refuse’ (his term) of the rest. It’s a eugenic philosophy of 
> ‘hyper-racism’, as he describes it on the racist blog Alternative Right, or 
> ‘Human Biodiversity’ (HBD). Here, class dominance and inequality are mapped 
> onto, explained, and justified by tendencies for the elite to mate with each 
> other and spawn a new species with an expanding IQ. Yes, this ‘hyper-racism’ 
> is that daft – and would be laughed off as the fantasy of a neoliberal Dr 
> Strangelove if it didn’t have leverage in this miserable climate of the 
> ascendant far right. Regarding the other side, the domain of the ‘refuse’, 
> Land uses euphemism to stand in for the white nationalist notion of a coming 
> ‘white genocide’: ‘demographic engineering as an explicit policy objective’, 
> ‘steady progress of population replacement’, is the racial threat he 
> describes on the bleak webpages of The Daily Caller. " 
> 
> https://conversations.e-flux.com/t/why-is-nick-land-still-embraced-by-segments-of-the-british-art-and-theory-scenes/6329
>  
> 

Hi Callum,

I was in no way speaking of Nick Land, just D/G. ...



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Re: 1994, Visions Of Heaven and Hell

[Nina Temporär]

> Am 02.03.2018 um 16:03 schrieb Richard Barbrook 
> :
> 
> 
> We did warn you that Deleuze and Guattari were the class enemy!
> 
> Richard

Hi Richard,

Whoa, bold one-line-claims thrown into the silence of a snowy Friday afternoon! 
 Nice attitude :) But….

It’s no big deal to know how Foucault kickstarted postmodern 
Left-Nietzscheanism, and that Gudrun Ensslin initially run a little Nazi 
publishing house.

But could you elaborate on this one please?
(And don’t tell me you believe in 'the other side of reason' = 
anti-intellectualism = right-wing. That formula is so uninformed and ableist…
I want to hear better arguments.)

Cheers N

> 
> ===
> 
> Dr. Richard Barbrook
> Dept of Politics and IR,
> University of Westminster
> 32-38 Wells Street
> LONDON W1T 3UW
> England
> 
> +44 (0)7879 441873
> 
> Skype: richard.barbrook
> Facebook: Richard Barbrook
> Twitter: @richardbarbrook
> 
> http://www.gamesforthemany.org
> http://www.cybersalon.org
> http://www.classwargames.net
> http://www.politicsandmediafreedom.net
> http://www.imaginaryfutures.net
> http://www.imaginaryfutures.net/other-works
> 
> 'Clause 5: That as the laws ought to be equal, so 
> they must be good, and not evidently destructive 
> to the safety and well-being of the people.' 
> 
> The Levellers, The 1647 Agreement of the People 
> for a Firm and Present Peace Upon Grounds of 
> Common Right.
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Re: why isn't memetics a thing?

[Nina Temporär]

>  
> philosophically then, why isn't memetics *the* science?
>  
> or is this just a stupid question, and I should shut up and go to sleep?
>  
> I read too much sci-fi, including Max Barry's lexicon and Neal Stephenson's 
> Snow Crash, but why do I not see courses in memetics, how to engineer memes, 
> and more importantly how to engineer anti-memes and vaccinate against 
> existing memes?
>  
> I could blather on in some kind of passive-aggressive tone for a while, but 
> hopefully I can go back to sleep.
>  
> If this is massively off-topic, and should be ignored, just let me know.
>  

#off topic: no way, it’s the kind of perfect answer / interest in relation to 
all the recent threads here around 
art-science, pseudo-neoluddism, alien contact question, social media 
critique... 

There are many people working on that (I am) but one reason why there is so 
little perception of it is, 
That they call it differently. And also, that it is a very difficult topic to 
establish a serious debate for, 
as most of the questions related to it are based on introspection.

You could use your extra awake-time (sic, maybe that thread was good, didn’t 
read) for wondering 
Why that is so - why people working on that topic are using different terms for 
it  (hint: it’s not just the 
JohnnyMnemonic:yeah-but-Dawkins:urgh-aspect) and why they aren’t visible. 
(Morlock Elloi could 
Help by stating why he so automatically comes up with the discipline of 
memetics as would-be heresy.)

If you’re up for extending the idea of the meme to human memory in context of 
the „real-time archive“, 
you could read the „We have always been post-human" chapter of the thesis of 
algorithmic artist David 
Crawford (1970-2009). It’s available online. 
https://konst.gu.se/english/ArtMonitor/dissertations/david_crawford 
 
Although written in 2009, it presents some interesting and still valid thoughts 
in relation to the capacity of the 
subject to respond to technology, and the idea that technologies alter subjects 
(produce subject-effects). 

Not sure if it is in this or an earlier book of his, he also had some 
remarkable comments on the role of the gesture,
Sounding close to a prediction of the hype around animated gifs that was 
occurring in social media a few years
Ago - a success story of a format as meme in itself.

N

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Re: nettime The Whole Earth -- Conference (Berlin, HKW 21/22 June

[Nina Temporär]

   Hi Mark,
   the lectures are online as videos meanwhile

   [1]http://hkw.de/de/programm/2013/anthropozaen/multimedia_anthropozaen/
   video_anthropozaen/video_anthropozaen.php

   as well as some extra Audio material that reboot.fm did

   https://soundcloud.com/rebootfm/sets/the-whole-earth-im-ther

   what about all the question marks embedding the term 'frontier'?

   best N



   Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Juli 2013 um 14:26 Uhr
   Von: newme...@aol.com
   An: nettim...@kein.org
   Betreff: nettime The Whole Earth -- Conference (Berlin, HKW 21/22
   June 2013)

   Folks:
   If this was mentioned on nettime (considering that it was once the
   primary
   topic of this list), I missed it -- did anyone from this collective
   attend and do they wish to offer a report?
 ...


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