[NSP] Re: Shuttle Pipes for Sale
Sadly Julian, the link you have posted requires a password. Barry On 11/22/2012 02:53 PM, Julian Templeman wrote: I have a set of shuttle pipes that are surplus to requirements. The shuttle drones are by Dave Shaw (see http://www.daveshaw.co.uk/Shuttle_Pipes/_shuttle_pipes.html) and they have a simple unkeyed chanter. Having decided that the pipes are, sadly, not the instrument for me, they have sat, unplayed, for several years (and so may need a bit of fettling) I hate to see instruments not being used, so if anyone wants to make me a reasonable offer (or happens to have a decent Renaissance lute they could offer in exchange...) do get in touch. You can find some pictures at http://julian-t.smugmug.com/Music/Shuttle-Pipes Thanks, julian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP spotted on ebay UK
First of all, I must apologise to Anthony for sending my first reply to him rather than the list. This was a finger slip. What I wrote was: As far as I can see, these pipes bear none of the features I would expect in Hedworth pipes. In particular, Anthony Robb wrote: His style is unique with the key stem shaped and silver soldered to reach completely across the domed round bit. Close examination of the third photograph shows keys with pads which are far more reminiscent of David Burleigh (for instance) although the touch ends do have the bulk I would expect from Hedworth. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: ebay Northumbrian bagpipe (not)
I have reported this to ebay as a misleading title. If others wish to do so this might not be a bad idea. I have not yet been able to tell them what is wrong, it is a rather tick-box approach, but I will see what happens. Barry John Dally wrote: Some sort of euro-pipe, very expensive for what it is, but not what the seller claims it is: ebay item #170741342181. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: 4mm or 6mm staples
Anthony Robb wrote: - 4mm internal, 4.75mm external diameters. That is as near as d*mn*t 5/32 id and 3/16 od which is the size of brass tube I use. So no argument there. Personally, I suspect this fuel tube originates in the US where, thankfully, the traditional sizes are alive and kicking. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle
Hi all, I agree with most of what has been said on this thread. I only restricted my advice to reed opening because I only wanted to mention clipping the reed when all else had been tried. It is after all irreversible, unless someone has found a way of gluing the bits back on? There was one other option I thought of which was to move the reed farther out of the chanter and play at a slightly higher pressure. If this cures the problem and the resulting pressure is too high, then the reed must be scraped to soften it, clipped to sharpen it c. c. However, right now I would like to know how Kevin got his chanter in tune as this will add to my knowledge. Barry Gibbons, John wrote: Kevin, What was the trouble in the end? Or more precisely, what remedy cured it? I'd trust the ones with hands on experimental knowledge rather than a mere theoretician, but theory is all I have! John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Kevin [tilb...@yahoo.com] Sent: 16 November 2011 08:57 To: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site Subject: [NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle Many thanks to all who wrote about my chanter being flat. i did what you advised and it has solved the problem. many thanks my chanter is now back in tune. best wishes kevin __ From: Dave Shawd...@daveshaw.co.uk To: Kevintilb...@yahoo.com; Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 15 November 2011, 10:16 Subject: [NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle Hi Kevin I would agree with the detail of Philips advice. When the octaves are in tune with each other and the fifth is flat then the reed is too long. You need to shorten the reed by half millimetre cuts(or less) until the intervals are correct. I use a cut throat type razor for this, on an endgrain hardwood block ( boxwood). A heavy craft knife would do on some firm surface, but you have to be careful as you can give yourself a nasty cut if the slightest slip occurs. Tuning the chanter to proper pitch is a whole different ballgame! Cheers, Dave Dave Shaw, Northumbrian and Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Pipes and SHAW Whistles www.daveshaw.co.uk - Original Message - From: Kevin[1]tilb...@yahoo.com To: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site[2]nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:20 PM Subject: [NSP] flat chanter in the middle Hi to All, Can anyone advice me on the tuning of my chanter to the drones. The top G and the bottom G are in tune with the drones but the middle notes especially the D is a fraction out of tune, a little flat. is this rectified by moving the reed, if so which way? or opening the reed or closing it? the chanter has been in tune in the past but since changing the reed i find these problems, it is either the top/bottom notes are out or the middle notes are outany advice? thanks kevin -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:tilb...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle
Hi Kevin Do you know what pitch you are tuning at. Is it the same as before? Do you know what pressure you're playing at. Is it the same as before? You could have a reed which naturally gives a flatter d . My guess would be to open the reed a fraction and increase your playing pressure slightly. If that works but the playing pressure is too high, get back to me. On list will be fine. Barry - These things may solve your worst nightmare, or they may eat all of the cheese in your house. I make no guarantees. YMMV. Kevin wrote: Hi to All, Can anyone advice me on the tuning of my chanter to the drones. The top G and the bottom G are in tune with the drones but the middle notes especially the D is a fraction out of tune, a little flat. is this rectified by moving the reed, if so which way? or opening the reed or closing it? the chanter has been in tune in the past but since changing the reed i find these problems, it is either the top/bottom notes are out or the middle notes are outany advice? thanks kevin -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: (no subject)
gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: The inspiration develops from the next day onwards but is relieved with antihistamines My first major hay-fever attack came on a school trip to Chesters fort. Although I had been a sniffely and sneezy youth up to that point, the streaming eyes and waterfall nose generated by the Northumbrian grassland on that day entirely surpassed all my previous experience. Perhaps the Northumbrian plaid was developed as a large scale handkerchief. Enough! Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Harvest tunes
Exactly! And when they ask where the tune came from you say Whey man, it's in aall the books. in a confident Wideopen accent that will tolerate no dissent. Barry Richard York wrote: You mean we could get away with Pachelbel's, Harvest Ground Canon, from his famous suite, A Bass for All Seasons? :) Richard. On 03/09/2011 21:19, Barry Say wrote: It has been reported that when Jack Armstrong appeared on the radio, the producers encouraged (required?) him to provide Northumbrian titles for the tunes he used. Whether or not this is true, why not take existing tunes which you like to play and give them 'Harvest' titles. I heard an interview with a young American singer/songwriter who accompanied herself on guitar. She was offered a well-paid gig to play 'cowboy' songs. A friend advised her to take the gig, play her own material, and call them cowboy songs. Of the audience he said Hell, they ain't no ethnomusicologists. Just a thought. Barry Richard York wrote: Please may I thank all those of you who, both on and off-list, have sent such a wealth of ideas. I knew this group was a helpful bunch of people, but have been really delighted by the quantity of great ideas, and the time you've taken to put them together. The service our friend is conducting could now be hours long, and that's just the music, never mind the other bits! There's a meeting this Tuesday of the people taking part, and I'll bring all the suggestions to it. Thanks again, Richard. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Text inserted by Panda IS 2011: This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_18625SPAM=truepath=C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Richard\Local%20Settings\Application%20Data\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Internet%20Security%202011\AntiSpam ---
[NSP] Re: Harvest tunes
It has been reported that when Jack Armstrong appeared on the radio, the producers encouraged (required?) him to provide Northumbrian titles for the tunes he used. Whether or not this is true, why not take existing tunes which you like to play and give them 'Harvest' titles. I heard an interview with a young American singer/songwriter who accompanied herself on guitar. She was offered a well-paid gig to play 'cowboy' songs. A friend advised her to take the gig, play her own material, and call them cowboy songs. Of the audience he said Hell, they ain't no ethnomusicologists. Just a thought. Barry Richard York wrote: Please may I thank all those of you who, both on and off-list, have sent such a wealth of ideas. I knew this group was a helpful bunch of people, but have been really delighted by the quantity of great ideas, and the time you've taken to put them together. The service our friend is conducting could now be hours long, and that's just the music, never mind the other bits! There's a meeting this Tuesday of the people taking part, and I'll bring all the suggestions to it. Thanks again, Richard. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Slowing down tunes
Hi All, I am a fully paid up licenseholder for the amazingslowdowner from Roni music and can thoroughly recommend it. It can change pitch and speed over a wide range and maintain an acceptable tone-quality. - More on this later I've had a look at seventhstring and it seems very interesting. It doesnt seem as convenient as ASD for playalong, but the graphical guesses at notes and chords could be quite useful. Also it claims to work on Linux, Mac and Windows, and as Linux is my preferred platform I will download the trial version. The website is very upfront and the author is actually explaining the methods he uses and the price seems very reasonable. Barry On Sat, Nov 06, 2010 at 02:49:28PM -0400, Steve Bliven wrote: Pardon my butting in here, but the program Bill was advocating is Transcribe! Trial version available at www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/overview.html Looks to be a very useful program as it allows not only slowing down the sounds, but also a graphical analysis of the notes (particularly useful with mouth-blown instruments but also to analyze gracings and other articulation). Best wishes. Steve On 11/6/10 1:20 PM, Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: Hello Colin I seem to remember Bill Ochs at Killington this year demonstrating software which can slow down normal recordings whilst keeping pitch intact. Perhaps you could contact him: [1]b...@pennywhistle.com and spread the word if I'm right. Thoroughly agree about abc being useful too, it's certainly better than nowt! Cheers Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Celtic Zone - Archie Fisher's Border Music
Hi Folks, Just wanted to let you know that the current edition of BBC Radio Scotland's archive programme the Celtic Zone features a compilation of programmes put together by folk musician Archie Fisher. The items are dedicated to the music and culture of the Borderlands between Scotland and England. One of the archive programmes features an interview with Iain MacInnes and the northurmbrian piper Graham Dixon. Thought it might be interesting for your readers [1]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tq1nh#p00b0jm4 Many thanks, Bobby Seiler Content Producer The Zones BBC Radio Scotland BBC Scotland ( Work: 0141 422 6999 ( Mobile: 07968 700 810 [2]http://www.bbc.co.uk This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. -- References 1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tq1nh#p00b0jm4 2. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP and Hardanger Fiddle?
Some years ago, Joe Crane used to turn up at the Chantry in Morpeth towards the end of the evening with a pair of Hardanger fiddles. When we repaired to the local hostelry after the meeting (The Chambers or The Joiners as I remember), Joe would induce Colin to play one of them. We didnt play pipes in the pub, perhaps 'cos you couldnt play quietly or they couldn't be heard above the dominoes. Barry On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:48:46 -0400 Colin Everett colinever...@verizon.net wrote: Hello all, I was wondering if anyone had any experience playing along with a hardanger fiddle? If so, any general advice, or suggestions on tunes that work well with the two instruments (from either tradition)? Thanks, Colin Everett To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Bag cloth
Does anyone remember a thread from the distant past when a now well-respected piper suggested playing in one's skin was a good way of discovering bellows leaks? Barry On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 10:06:00 +0100 Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: On 12 Aug 2010, at 09:55, Richard York wrote: a new sub-group within the NPS, the naturist section. H . . . one step nearer to the NPS nude calendar, I fear. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Parnell's March
Hi All, There is of course a great deal of truth in Anthony's post, but notating hornpipes in 12/8 just doesn't do it for me. The 2:1 ratio is certainly a good guide. 3:1 feels more scottish to me. The problem I found with Parnell's march in 6/8 is that when I see 3 quavers in a 6/8 rhythm I absolutely do not want to play them even. In a hornpipe, I believe the introduction of triplets is meant to smooth out the rhythm, for a while, in contrast to the dotted 'n dashed uns as Joe Hutton would call them. Stewart Hardy is also correct and this shows the difficulty in playing from music. AFAIK Northumbrian music has always been a semi-literate tradition. Tunes were noted down lest they be forgotten or as an aid to learning, but I dont think their was ever a great tradition of shepherds getting out their music stands in order to play. Barry On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 12:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: Hello both all, 12/8 is the most accurate way of getting the Newcastle (as James Hill named it) hornpipe rhythm across (i.e. best for writing the common hornpipe 2:1 note ratio). The dotted quaver/semiquaver system gives a 3:1 ratio which is not accurate (as anyone who has used a computer to play a common time hornpipe will have realised). Stewart Hardy has pointed out many times that it all comes down to seeing beyond the notes and using a trained mind to interpret them. As he says, a traditional musician must look at the notes, recognise the groove, sing the tune in their head and decide on decoration and emphasis all at the same time in order that our imperfect nomenclature can't do the nasty on us. Anthony --- On Mon, 7/6/10, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Parnell's March To: 'John Dally' dir...@gmail.com, nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 7 June, 2010, 18:08 I thought it was a march! There isn't much to choose between how people play dotted 4/4, (as in the duet book arrangement of this) and how they play 12/8 anyway. If it has 4 beats in the bar, (strong-weak-strong-weak) and a good bounce to the rhythm, it will sound right, however you spell it. John -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of John Dally Sent: 07 June 2010 17:16 To: [3]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Parnell's March Parnell's March NPS Bk 2, p.3: it's written out as a jig, but isn't it really a hornpipe? To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Pipe cases (again)
Hi All, I have just taken delivery of my new pipe case. It is a 24 Heavy duty toolbag by Kanga with a nicely reinforced bottom. Such a case requires putting the pipes in protective tubes (drainpipe) but I have used a Kanga leather toolbag successfully for years. I cannot vouch for its longevity but it looks good. It has attachment points for a shoulder strap. http://www.tilgear.info/products/1030/6019/kanga_heavy_duty_tool_bag_24andquot/ At less than ten UK pounds it seems like good value and it is an excellent toolshop. Carriage is extra. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: pipe cases
I never new Bill Hedworth, but the notion that he would buy anything which he could make himself seems a bit unlikely. Bill's cases are sturdy and long-lasting in our British climate, however, I don't think they would respond well to modern baggage handling methods. The main section has a softwood lip round the opening which I think adds to the strength. The only real problem is that they are rather small and if the piper wants an alternative chanter or different bellows, packing the case can be a problem. On the other hand there isn't much room for the pipes to move inside the case which keeps them a lot safer. Barry Say colin wrote: Mine came with my pipes from Bill Hedworth and is plywood covered with green leatherette with metal corners. Mine's still fine and now in it's 36th year (made 1974 or thereabouts) although the leatherette has lifted on few corners over that time (easy to glue down again). It's been through the post a couple of times as well without problems (chanters and drones wrapped in bits of silk shirt - bought for 50p in a charity shop and contained in stout cardboard tubes). I have no idea if he made it himself or if he bought it somewhere. It'll outlast me :-) Colin Hill To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: kipper box
Hi Chris, Is this anything to do with your vested interests (or lack of them). (See other thread) Barry christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: Would someone care to admit to a close enough acquaintance with a female baroque violinist to safely enquire about her knicker elastic? I'm working on it ;-) c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP duet with other instruments
Francis Wood wrote: Also is pitch purely dependent on tension? The danger with such a question is that one might receive a full and comprehensive answer, which in such cases is usually to be regretted! This is one case where I think the answer is simpler than one might expect. Quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_string f = (1/2L) * sqrt (T/mu) L is the length Double the length and you halve the frequency T is the tension. You need to raise the tension fourfold to double the frequency mu mass per unit length. Four times the mass (weight) and you half the frequency SimpleS. If you start talking harmonics and tones it then does get an awful lot more complicated. (Oh my poor head). If only pipes were so simple Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP duet with other instruments
Gibbons, John wrote: Barry said If only pipes were so simple The formula for strings: f = (1/2L) * sqrt (T/mu) neglects all sorts of effects, such as the bow or the finger, the rigidity of the string, the speed of tension waves in the string, etc. And we haven't thought of the motion of the fiddle's bridge and body yet. I believe that of all the approximations in acoustics this one works pretty well for strings under the conditions we find in musical instruments. However, it does assume that the string is uniform and stretched between two fixed points - nut and bridge. There again, that is the normal arrangement for tuning. Similarly, the analogous formula for a one-open-ended pipe: f = (1/4L) * sqrt (gamma P/rho) neglects the effects of the reed at the 'closed' end or the hole at the other. Or the bore, or the 'dead' bore below the open hole, the vibration of the wood, etc... This may be a good starting point but I believe that for NSP in particular it is very approximate. Wall effects which are generally negligible in other instruments become significant at the bore sizes we use. The effective reed length is a whole can of worms. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation
Paul Gretton wrote: But then: de gustibus non est disputandum as we say in Maastricht (pronounced disgusting buses full of disputing nuns). Mr Nasty Or as they say on Tyneside after a heavy night in the Bigg Market. sic transit gloria mundi (pronounced Gloria was rather ill while travelling in a van on Monday) B To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: bag shape
Hi Richard, Excuse me while I mount my hobby-horse. The size of the bag relative to the body shape of the player can have a crucial effect on the perceived difficulty of playing the pipes. I observed the posture of many players in piping meetings and I came to the conclusion that those who had the bag tucked well up into their armpit leaving the forearm detached seemed to have the greatest freedom in playing the pipes, so I resolved to adopt this position. When playing, my bag rests in the crook of my elbow and 2/3 to 3/4 of my forearm is not in contact with the bag. The problem with adopting this stance is having the confidence that the bag will stay where it is put. It took me several years to get my pipes and my stance comfortable, but now I find that I can play almost any non-leaking pipes with relative ease. For a long time, the corner of my bellows was rubbing on my right wrist and causing an abrasion. Now there is 3 inch separation between the wrist and the corner. I dont remeber how I got rid of that problem. I am currently considering taking an inch off the neck of my bag to bring the chanter to a more comfortable position. I experimented with playing with the bag more in front of the body, but I found that this required active pressure from the arm to squeeze the bag, whereas with a standard bag I feel as though it is the weight of my arm which is compressing the bag. Does this help? Barry Richard York wrote: I'd welcome comments/advice on nsp bag shape, please. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Warning: scam
Hi All, These guys are truly prolific. Over 17,000 titles at Amazon and 5,000 at Blackwell. I have written to both. Barry On 21 Jan 2010 at 10:35, Matt Seattle wrote: I found the following on Amazon for a hefty price - Music of Northumbria: Northumbria, Folk music, Border ballad, Northumbrian smallpipes, Bagpipes, Fiddle, The Ballad of Chevy Chase, Rapper sword, ... Bagpipe, Border pipes, Pastoral pipes (Paperback) by Frederic P. Miller (Editor), Agnes F. Vandome (Editor), John McBrewster (Editor) No customer reviews yet. Be the first. Was curious as I'd not heard of the authors or the publisher, alphascript - googled them and quickly learnt that the setup is a scam which recycles wikipedia articles and packages them as a plausible-ish looking book. Your own work may even be in there. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Newbiggin Session
Hi All, this mainly for those within easy reach of Newbiggin by the Sea Northumberland Just a reminder about the session at Newbiggin Sailing Club Tomorrow night (Thursday) 8.00 pm More details from me if required Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP
Yes, we need Palatinum pipes made in the exclave of Bedlingtonshire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedlingtonshire Those seeking enlightrnment could investigate: Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1839 Barry On 6 Jan 2010 at 18:06, Richard York wrote: Palatinate Pipes? tim rolls BT wrote: I guess we may have to consider allowing Durham, CHAPELRY OF WHITWORTH. The Chapelry of Whitworth is bounded by the Wear, dividing it from Brancepath on the North; by Tudhoe, in the Parish of Brancepath, on the East; by Merrington on the South-east and South; and by St. Andrew's Auckland on the South-west and West. John Robinson, of Coundon, found drowned the 23d day of August 1637. He was a piper. From: 'Chapelry of Whitworth', The History and Antiquities of the County Palatine of Durham: volume 3: Stockton and Darlington wards (1823), pp. 291-302. URL: [1][1]http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=76361amp;strque ry=northumberland piper Date accessed: 06 January 2010. Tim - Original Message - From: [2]Anthony Robb To: [[2]3]...@millgreens.f2s.com ; [[3]4]gibbonssoi...@aol.com ; [5]tim rolls BT Cc: [[4]6]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: NSP Hello Tim Guess you're thinking about developments such as concert G chanters and high C keys. It would be accurate but silly as we both know. Clearly the pipes have growing international interest but newcomers Googling Northumberland (pipes) would get a very half-baked picture of the instrument and its history. Even if Northumberland had gained widespread acceptance during the appropriate period a good case could now be made for Northumbrian. Surely we should stick with the accepted and now geographically accurate Northumbrian. It is, after all, what most of us call them. As aye Anthony --- On Wed, 6/1/10, tim rolls BT [5]tim.ro...@btconnect.com wrote: From: tim rolls BT [6]tim.ro...@btconnect.com Subject: [NSP] Re: NSP To: [7]...@millgreens.f2s.com, [8]gibbonssoi...@aol.com, Anthony Robb [9]anth...@robbpipes.com Cc: [10]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 6 January, 2010, 12:09 Hi All, Surely the Tyne and Weary pipes appelation should only apply to developments since 1973. Before that back to a point where Newcastle was a county in it's own right (someone fill in the dates here )it's Northumberland all the way. Perhaps to avoid contention we should adopt a new designation, as Scottish is to Scotland, and English is to England (Angleland) what about Northumberlish? Tim - Original Message - From: Anthony Robb [11][7]anth...@robbpipes.com To: [12][8]...@millgreens.f2s.com; [13][9]gibbonssoi...@aol.com Cc: [14][10]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:15 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: NSP Thin ice here,I think, John. Leaving aside the century in which the unique sound of the pipes was created and whether the addition of keys improved this sound, there are real problems, these days, with the appellation Northumberland. You rightly point out that the Kingdom of Northumbria belonged to a different era to the modern version of the instrument but then so does Northumberland as now designated by the boundary changes of the 1970s. Jim is far closer to the truth when he refers to Northumbria as the home of our pipes as this region does imply the inclusion of what is now Tyne Wear, and Durham. The locals of course usually just referred to them as pipes and used appellations Scottish or Irish to denote otherwise. When geographical information was added for the benefit of a wider audience, Northumberland was used. This now, however, has a greater lack of accuracy than Northumbrian as it means that the very place where the piping developments you mention is excluded from the named location. Perhaps some would like us now to refer to Northumberland pipes for the older version and Tyne Wear pipes for the modern version? As aye Anthony --- On Tue, 5/1/10, [[15]11]gibbonssoi...@aol.com [16][12]gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: From: [[17]13]gibbonssoi...@aol.com [18][14]gibbonssoi...@aol.com Subject: [NSP] Re: NSP To: [[19]15]...@millgreens.f2s.com Cc: [[20]16]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 5 January, 2010, 23:03 The pipes and the kingdom belong to different eras - the Northumbrian pipes reached something like their modern form in a similar time and place to the steam locomotive. But they were called
[NSP] Re: NSP
Ii is one of the quirks of our wonderful language that the names of our counties can also serve as adjectives. Think of Durham, Yorkshire, Norfolk etc. Whereas France /French Germany / German and so on Barry On 5 Jan 2010 at 20:48, Richard York wrote: Strange, isn't it? You're right, but I can't recollect ever seeing the Scotland bagpipes mentioned, nor yet the France bagpipes. Yours in puzzlement, but Happy New Year anyway, Richard. P.S. Not being very tall, I suppose I'm a small piper, or at least aspiring eventually to become one. colin wrote: I'd go with that. Problem with Northumbrian is that it may appear that it refers to where the artist comes from (as in Colin Hill, Liverpudlian small-pipes player). ;-) Northumbrian piper may suggest a piper from Northumberland who plays bagpipes (any). Northumberland small-pipes player sounds good and accurate (maybe player is stretching it a little in my case). :-D Colin Hill - Original Message - From: inky adrian inky-adr...@ntlworld.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 3:38 PM Subject: [NSP] NSP I've always called them the Northumberland small-pipes as did the NPS in the old days. Inky-adrian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP item on BBC Radio 4
Well spotted Francis. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.
Adding to Alistair Anderson's conjectures on the development of the bagpipes,
the most convincing story I have heard is that when the Crusaders travelled to
what has been described as 'The Holy Land', they discovered people playing
'pipes' from air in 'bags'. They took this idea home and tried putting the
native instruments of their region into bags to see what happened. This would
neatly account for the widespread distribution of bagpipes in Europe and the
variety of forms.
Any thoughts?
Barry
PS Happy New Year
--
On 1 Jan 2010 at 9:50, Francis Wood wrote:
A very nice item yesterday on BBC Radio 4 from Morpeth Chantry Bagpipe Museum.
Congratulations to everyone who spoke or played; it was really good!
The programme ('Questions, Questions', 13.30) is available for the next 6 days
at:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/schedules/fm/2009/12/31
Francis
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[NSP] Newbiggin Session
Hi All, There will be another piping session this Thursday at the Newbiggin by the Sea Sailing Club, this Thursday at 8 oclock. Contact me offlist if you require further details. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Wannies Yomp
Hi all, Once again a few (or more - the more the merrier) hardy souls will scale the heights of the Wannies Crag on Boxing Day (Sat 26th December) to play pipes, consume Bacon Butties, phone friends, admire the view and / or curse the weather The Barrasford is not available for the afternoon music session this year. However, 'The Gun' at Ridsdale has said that we are more than welcome to play there. They will open at about noon and will have food (soup and sandwiches at least) available. There is generally a good turnout of players playing in our customary F+(ish) pitch. Ridsdale is on the A68, much nearer the Wannies, and has only the one pub. Ridsdale is the only place in the UK with thar spelling. A search on multimap is straightforward Please pass this on to anyone you think might be interested. Barry and Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] file (Fenwick)
Hi All, Some time ago I psode the question, If I were a 19th Century piping teacher and the only book of music I had available was Peacock's tunes, could I grade the tunes so that the pupil could start with the easiest and progress through more difficult tunes until the whole book was within their reach. I graded the 50 tunes 1 (easy) to 5 (difficult) and was pleasantly surprised at the result which showed a fairly even spread with category 3 containig the most tunes. That sounds like a well-balanced selection to me. I don't know whether anyone else would like to try the exercise. It would be interesting to compare results. Barry On 1 Nov 2009 at 17:03, Francis Wood wrote: They are mostly pretty difficult. I wonder why he failed to additionally provide an additional body of more achievable tunes (if Coquetdale and the basic 'Bonny Pit Laddie' can be so termed). In an 'Instruction Book' which is elsewhere generous in space for less useful matter, it seems an odd omission. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] NSP] Re: Cut and Dry Dolly
On 16 Sep 2009 at 15:11, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: But no light on what the title meant - until someone turns up some song lyrics, we are probably left with guesswork as the best way of working out that one. Lyrics to a different tune: Fresh Aw cum frrae Sandgate Street Dolli, dolli. Maw best freends here to meet Dollia Dolli the dillen dol Dolli, dolli Dolli the dillen dol Dollia Who was Dolly the dillen doll? What was a dillen doll? Any theories? Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] NSP] Re: Cut and Dry Dolly
On 16 Sep 2009 at 15:11, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: But no light on what the title meant - until someone turns up some song lyrics, we are probably left with guesswork as the best way of working out that one. Lyrics to a different tune: Fresh Aw cum frrae Sandgate Street Dolli, dolli. Maw best freends here to meet Dollia Dolli the dillen dol Dolli, dolli Dolli the dillen dol Dollia Who was Dolly the dillen doll? What was a dillen doll? Any theories? Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] NSP] Re: Cut and Dry Dolly
On 16 Sep 2009 at 15:11, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: But no light on what the title meant - until someone turns up some song lyrics, we are probably left with guesswork as the best way of working out that one. Lyrics to a different tune: Fresh Aw cum frrae Sandgate Street Dolli, dolli. Maw best freends here to meet Dollia Dolli the dillen dol Dolli, dolli Dolli the dillen dol Dollia Who was Dolly the dillen doll? What was a dillen doll? Any theories? Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune title spelling
Hi All Personally I wouldn't bother trying to put exotic characters in e-mail. They only work if the recipient is using the same system to read the messages as the sender is using to compose them. Look at the trouble we with get with £ signs. Barry On 19 Aug 2009 at 10:02, The Red Goblin wrote: I have not found a way to access them for e-mail.? Tip: In WinXP (MacOS/Linux may have a similar applet) I simply copy paste exotic characters from the Character Map* accessory. Steve Collins * Buried in Start Programs Accessories System Tools (points to %SystemRoot%\System32\charmap.exe if missing) but I keep a shortcut handy on my Office Toolbar To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Decriminalising Music
Thiis is one for UK residents. There is a move afoot to relax the music licensing laws to read more and sign a petition go to http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/livemusicevents/ We are past the closing date but 'signatures' are still being accepted. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] (Fwd) Re: In the light of recent postings ...
Hi All, I sent a message to Steve Bliven and copied it to the list but it contained a forbidden word in the first 5 lines. Here it is again. -- On 23 May 2009 at 12:35, Steve Bliven wrote: If, however, the members have decided to use this list as their organ then, as a non-member, I am clearly in the wrong place and will unsubscribe forthwith. Best wishes. Steve Bliven Hi Steve, Thanks for pointing that out. I am sorry that you feel driven to leave this list. Although I have been actively involved with the NPS for the whole of my time on this list and its predecessors, I have always tried to avoid bringing Society matters to this list. I was well aware that there were people on this list who had no wish to be involved with the NPS in any way. I have always valued this list as a channel for hearing the opinions of such people. I trust you will return to the list when this outburst is over. Barry Say To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Kathryn Tickell - Pipes Teacher.
Hi All, I have been waiting for an opportune moment to write this posting for several years. I think this is an appropriate time, before answering some of Anthony Robb's points, particularly the points concerning Kathryn Kathryn was a tutor at the Forkworks Adult Winter Workout held at Darlington in I believe, 1995. I attended this weekend course and subsequently she organized a series of classes privately, which were carried out in groups of three or four. These I attended and paid for. I cannot fault her skill as a teacher, and if I did not derive maximum benefit from the the experience then the failing was mine. However, I learned that her playing is based on a very sound basis of clean fingering, all the gracings are studied and balanced. I adopted some of the gracings in my own playing. More importantly, I took away from the series of lessons the a greater ability to listen critically to my own playing, and the ability to liten 'faster', hearing greater detail in music. This I think was actually more important than anything I learned about piping technique and I remain grateful. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Billy Pigg
Hi All, On 14 Apr 2009 at 12:43, Anthony Robb wrote: Hello Adrian Thanks for that. I'm new to this debate and find it all fascinating. You have obviously been out of touch with the latest developments in piping for several years. We all knew of Chris Ormston's preference for the Clough style and repertoire, but Adrian's conversion seemed remarkable and was part of what caused me to re-examine my own playing I'm obviously one of the damned because I find choyting expressive and beautiful in the right place. What we each find appropriate in Northumbrian piping depends on our experience. If we associate with those who prefer open gracing and indulge in it ourselves it can become 'normal' and even 'habitual'. Having been on this particular path to perdition, it took me a great deal of effort to eradicate these intrusions and now I find them just that, intrusions into the music. Chris Ormston explained why open gracing from a hgher note is intrusive.Let us consider open gracing a top g with the a above it. This is what Adrian calls a seagull. At some point the a and g holes are both open and this will generally make the a some that louder than it would have been if only the key hole were open. This makes the grace note louder than the melody note. The thought of moving on from Billy Pigg to Tom Clough is as strange to me as moving on from York to Durham. They are both wonderful beautiful places and neither can really claim superiority. I can understand moving from one to the other but not moving on from one to the other. I think this calls for the Harley Davison motto -' If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand' Billy was taught by Tom and retained many aspects of the style, but also introduced some 'novelty' aspects. These may have seemed OK at the time but after a while they wear a bit thin. It would seem that many of those who sought to emulate Billy's style paid more attention to the ephemeral aspects rather than the the solid technique which underlay it. I doubt that anyone haaas come closer to emulating Billy's playing than Adrian, and if this lead him back to Clough, then I think the rest of us should take notice. The important thing to bear in mind is that ordinary folk like me just know what we like. Is this the attitude a teacher should have? Should you not be challenging the pupils and yourself? That can be nice bouncy dance tunes tunes played out of context??!! for sheer enjoyment in each other's homes or other ways of getting some some personal expression that goes beyond the rules laid down by one of the most unique and talented dynasties to stand outside the everyday tradition of this music. It is a pity if the Clough approach is presented as rules. I see it rather as discipline freely chosen. As far as I am concerned, adopting that discipline gave me more control over the instrument, allowed faster playing and a greater degree of rhythmic expression. I feel priveleged to have had the music experiences I've had. I was taught by ear by someone who thought Tom Clough was king and who was himself taught by ear by someone who was taught by Tom Clough. The interesting thing is, they both had an openess of mind that allowed for deviation from the received teaching. The question is, do we move on from here or go back to a strict obeyance of rules that only the extremely gifted can live by? That is not the question at all. The Clough approach is a very simple method of palying the pipes which allows anyone to play very well. Luckily there are quite a few players around who have a nice clean style and play delightful rhythmic music without the intrusions of unnecessary grace notes or other embellishments. That is the playing company I seek. Barry - Remember the motto of the mediocre: Eagles my soar, but weasels dong get sucked into jet engines To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: When did a rant become a Rant?
Interested parties may car to visit: www.dsl.ac.uk For a Scots meaning for rant. Barry On 6 Apr 2009 at 9:37, Richard York wrote: Thanks Matt all. Best wishes, Richard. Matt Seattle wrote: Some strathspeys have 'Rant' in the title also, e.g. Rothiemurchus' Rant, Carrick's Rant. What's being referred to here is a more specifically regional use. I've been wondering if some of the common-time tunes in Peacock (Cuckold, Cut Dry, Passing By, Jackey L) pass the soup test, and might be used for dancing, or are they purely for inner dancing, with their 'lilts and pauses'? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: J Allen (and Rants)
Dont Forget Jimmy's younger brother - Woody B On 13 Mar 2009 at 9:59, Helen Fish wrote: Jimmy Allen was the husband of Babs, of course. Doh, don't you guys know anything? Helen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune Phrasing / Rants / Reels / Polkas
On 13 Mar 2009 at 16:24, Paul Rhodes wrote: Hi All, And guess what Anthony? We played the Dorset Four-Hand Reel in the session at Halsway last Sunday, so 'what goes around comes around', as they say. Did you play both parts. If I remember rightly the second part is generally played a tone higher and bears a remarkable similarity to The Tomtit Reel ascribed to Archie Dagg. Barry Say To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Midi, rhythm, popping, agogics, psycho
On 11 Mar 2009 at 18:39, Robert Greef wrote: So some aural illusions at work, it would seem. Anyone for psychoacoustics? Robert I think so. When we hear a sound and it stops, our brains retain a memory of the sound so that when we hear a subsequent sound we can compare the two and hear a harmonious interval. Thus we can hear a scale, an arpeggio, an octave. This is part of what allows us to appreciate music. I believe that presented with good detached playing the listener can be unaware of the small gaps between notes. Conversely when a note starts suddenly it has great impact. The transition from silence to tone can appear almost percussive. As the note continues at a constant volume the listener becomes accustomed to the pitch and volume and the note appears to be less dramatic. It appears to drop in intensity. By varying the length and spacing of notes subtle emphases can be introduced into the playing. If we consider the four-note patterns common in tunes the Peacock Collection and the Clough Manuscripts, there is a 'magic' speed at which the notes, although detached, appear to 'bounce off' each other. For best effect, the speed of the whole tune must be set so that these rapid successions of notes work as a unit. You mention Chris Ormston as a master of this technique. He is of course merely following a well trodden path. While we know he has based his playing on the Clough tradition, examination of historical recordings of Joe Hutton, George Armstrong and Billy Pigg show very similar note shapes. I am coming to think that Billy's playing has been misrepresented by concentrating too much on the flourishes rather than emulating the underlying, solid technique. Chris has also recommended these earlier recordings. I am aware of of several players in the North-East who are emulating this style. Some have been playing longer than I have and some far less. The traditional style is continuing, but many of the supporters are not in the public eye. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Response to Chris
On 11 Mar 2009 at 19:39, Chris Ormston wrote: Other volume differences between notes on recordings may merely be due to the fact that the sound comes out of various points on the chanter, holes are different sizes (but I don't want to go there!!!) and it is difficult to position microphones so that all notes are of equal volume. Since writing the article I have found a possible answer to the problem of anomalous note volumes. I recorded my own playing and considered the results in the light of what I had written. Notes I thought weak had a slow rise. Searching for a good reed I tried looking at the wave envelope as I played each reed and I saw loud notes at various points on the chanter. Eventually I got to a point where I had a pretty good reed but it was exceptionally strident on one note on the top hand. I tried a bit scrape and the problem shifted to another note. Another scrape and it went away. Conclusion: Looking at the waveform of a chanter on the computer can show volume differences between notes which have no effect on the enjoyment of music. If a reed produces intrusive notes, it could be cured by scraping. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Measureing Tips
Hi Malcolm, Welcome to the wonderful world of pipemaking. The question of the reference point for tone holes is an old argument. Colin Ross finds it convenient to measure from the top of the chanter. Makers who hold the chanter in a chuck prefer to measure from the shoulder. The two are entirely equivalent scientifically speaking. The length of the chanter tenon only becomes really critical if a tapered reed seating (as recommended by Colin) is used. As Malcolm will be including historical chanters with parallel reed seatings, which were presumably laid out in the traditional fashion, measuring from the shoulder would seem quite appropriate. I think that Malcolm's idea for measuring an inside diameter with an outside measuring device is quite novel and he should be congratulated on the simplicity of his idea. I suspect that analysis of the results will not be straightforward. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Music to learn from
Hi All, If you want a good idea of how tunes might be played try Pauline Cato's Northumbrian Choice. Book and 2 CDs available at http://www.mally.com/details.asp?id=52 and other outlets. The main disadvantage is that it is recorded on concert G pipes. However, if one also obtains a copy of the 'Amazing Slow Downer' at $49.95 from http://www.ronimusic.com/ you can adjust the pitch and speed of the recording to match your pipes and confidence level respectively. I am very wary of using 'flat' midi versions of a tune as teaching aids as they miss out the essential 'lilt' of the rhthym which is so important. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: malcom's final solution
On 8 Mar 2009 at 12:23, Dave S wrote: Barry, There used to be a site run by Gerit Raith having plans for a cornemuse in F (alto kortholt) but I can't seem to track it down -- if you are interested in this windcap instrument I may be a ble to dig out the plans from an archive I have somewhere -- let me know if you would like me to search for them -- Ciao Dave S Thanks Dave. There is no need to go looking for plans. I was merely trying to establish that the NSP chanter is pretty unusual and as such will present its own problems to a maker. The other instrument I have come across with finger holes comparable to the bore is the Boehm system flute. Apparently Mr. Boehm designed his flute to have the diameter of the finger holes as close as possible to the size of the bore. The bore of the NSP chanter is generally in the range 5/32 to 3/16. At this size any imperfection in the drilling can affect the tuning quite considerably. In the bore of a wind instrument, there is a layer of virtually static air next to the wall due to viscous drag. In the NSP chanter, this boundary layer occupies a significant fraction of the bore cross-section. In a clarinet (for instance) the bore is much larger and the effect of the walls is much less. I think there are very good reasons why it is difficult to make perfectly reproducible chanters and the skill of a maker or fettler is to bring the best out of a chanter. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: malcom's final solution
I am writing a reply to Malcolm's message, but in the meantime, I have a related question which I hope that readers of this list can help with. The Northumbrian Smallpipes are unusual in that they have a very small bore compared to other instruments. Also, the tone holes are often the same size as the bore. Is anyone aware of any other wind instruments contemporary or historical which have a bore comparable with the smallpipes or tone holes about the size of the bore? Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Copyright issues
I think there are some worthwhile discussions to be had here. Since it is a further topic for discussion I have posted with a new subject to avoid confusion with the Jimmy Allan Topic which grinds on. I agree with most of what Dru has said, but I believe the situation in the USA is rather different, where the first person to record a song gains rights over it. Am I correct? Also, how long does copyright last? Anyone know any good websites? Barry On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:57, Dru Brooke-Taylor wrote: There's a further topic for discussion. What does anyone claim Trad C/C means? I suspect there are people on this list who will disagree with me, but I think the statement 'Trad C/C' is usually a nonsense statement. It's either one or the other. It can't be both. Copyright has to belong to someone. By calling something 'trad', in effect, a person is saying they do not believe there is anyone who has copyright in it. They aren't expecting to pay royalties for using it, or that someone will leap out of the woodwork who can claim them. A different copyright exists in the actual recording, but you do not give yourself copyright in a piece of music that comes from somewhere else just by finding it on a grubby piece of lined paper, hearing it in a session or playing it. You can only get such a copyright by tracing who wrote it, finding them or their executors, being able to show that their copyright has not expired and persuading them to sell it to you. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] The NSPlist and the NPS
Along with the rest of the list I received Alan Corkett's last message and I will respond to the details later but there is on point I feel I must raise lest a false impression is given. I have been a member of this list for many years and I do not consider that my election as Magazine editor should have any effect on my contributions. The only problem I found was that having received Chris Ormston's and Anthony Robb's articles (in particular), I couldnt discuss any matters that they addressed least I steal their thunder before publication. The NPS magazine is now in the public domain, so its contents are up for discussion. I have always been very conscious that this list is independent and has no relationship with the Northumbrian Pipers' Society. I try to bear in mind that messages to this list very likely go to pipers who are not NPS members (for whatever reason). When I write to this list I do so on my own behalf unless I explicitly say otherwise. Barry On 15 Jan 2009 at 13:35, Alan Corkett wrote: The Northumbrian Pipers Society are busy discussing the origins of the tune Jimmy Allen which was published in EFDSS CDM6 in 1964. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen
Some years ago, I would have held the opinion that it was possible that tunes we play now could be 200 years old but had only been written down or published in the last 50 years. In the case of Northumbrian and Scottish music I now think this is very unlikely. We have a wealth of published material and manuscripts going back well over 200 years. We have several examples Vickers, Rook, the Clough Family of players noting down the tunes they played as an aide memoire. The date at which a tune is written down or published is a latest possible date of composition. If it was composed considerably earlier than that it would only survive past the lifetime of the composer by being played in public so that other musicians would pick it up and it would be incorporated into their repertoire. It would spread through the community until someone wrote it down. So, if it aint wrote down somewhere it wasn't widely played. One may suggest that a tune could be handed down through a family by ear for several generations, but there is no evidence that this has ever occurred to my knowledge. No one ever claimed Jimmy Allan was old, we just assumed it was. Barry On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:57, Dru Brooke-Taylor wrote: As for Jimmy Allen, one cannot prove that it was ancient from a negative, but it does look as though there was no one around in the 1960s or 1970s who claimed that they or their ancestor wrote it. If this reasoning were valid, which it isn't, it would be persuasive that if anyone once wrote it, they died before about 1900. It doesn't, though, unfortunately, provide any direct link to someone who died in 1810. Dru To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
On 13 Jan 2009 at 17:52, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Are you saying these words 'Come gie's a sang Montgomery cried ...' fit the 'Reel of Tullochgorum' tune (they do) or the ex-strathspey that's found in Peacock (they fit that too). In what follows I will refer to the tune found in Peacock as the strathspey. In this I am following the opinion of Hamish Moore who opined that the vast majority of Scottish tunes derive from and relate to the Strathspey from. I am not qualified to judge his opinion, but I will use it as an excuse to adopt a convenient handle. OK, I acknowledge the words will fit to both tunes, however I think they fit much more naturally to the strathspey version, where I feel the stress of the words fits more naturally with the stress of the tune. This is a personal opinion and I do not think it is possible to argue either way in an absolute way. However: 1) The song is called Tullochgorum which matches the published title of the Strathspey. 2) We know of no record of a tune called the Reel of Tullochgorum either in manuscript or published form. 3) It is possible that the unknown composer of The Reel of Tullochgorum composed a reel to 'fit' the words of the poem. Even in modern times there are those who are careless recording the composer when they write out music and I think this was even worse in former times when music was transmitted bye ear. It would seem likely that the Reel of Tullochgorum was composed pre- 1939 and I can come up with several reasons why the composer may have lost interest in his 'oeuvre' but I will not pursue this least I put my foot in it and get 'oeuf sur le visage'. The difference between gobstopper and tomato soup is obscured by the stress of the verse. That could be seen as fortunate Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Piper print
On 14 Jan 2009 at 9:43, tim rolls BT wrote: Hi Richard, I haven't got my physics head on this morning, but would this be anything to do with the fact that many painters used a sort of camera obscura device to project the model onto a canvas, then did a quick sketch round the projected image, I can never get my head round whether the image just inverts vertically or swaps L-R as well. Tim - Original Message - Hi All, I had the same thought, but I came to the conclusion that image swaps top to bottom and left to right leaving the image unchanged. If it hadn't, all the paintings would have looked 'wrong' and clock faces etc would have given the game away. -- For those who have been taught symmetry operations. A mirror causes a mirror transformation (obvious). A pinhole is a centre of inversion. Thes are technical terms and I refuse to start a discussion on Symmetry and Group theory on this list. It would beo off-topic. -- Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
On 14 Jan 2009 at 10:28, Matt Seattle wrote: Those words were written for the old tune of Tullochgorum (not 'Jimmy Allan'). Hi Matt, Are you aware of any historic publication which contains both the words and music. The song has eight lines to a verse. I would tend to try and fit them to ABB of the tune, because lines 5-8 and 9-12 contain many similar words, but without working it up I wouldn't like to stick my neck out. Those words to that tune seem to resonate with what I seem to remember of the infamous White Heather Club from my youth. The old tune survives in very many written versions, in both reel and strathspey arrangements. The reel versions are, as far as I can tell, older. Many reels were converted to strathspeys later, from the evidence I have seen, which contradicts the opinion which is reported (not necessarily held!) by Barry. Vickers No. 89 is a reel version for example. The old versions are all for fiddle, the tune had to be chopped a little to fit on 8-note chanters and even 9-note chanters. Peacock's is the same (old) tune but is a different take on it. IMO it's a rant - if Cuckold is, which may not be the consensus. There seems to have been a practice of taking reels and strathspeys and converting them into rants, many examples in Dixon and Peacock. At any rate they work as rants. (I prefer to read/write them with the longer note values of Dixon, but that's just a personal preference.) I will repeat (and amplify) an earlier statement I made. I claim no great expertise in naming or classifying rhythms. I play tunes as I hear them or find them written and in my own mind I classify them by their similarity to other tunes and rationalise the rhythms afterwards. However, I am grateful to sucha as Anthony Robb and Matt for their attempts to describe these matters. I think they offer us a language for use in discussion even if it cannot express the full subtlety of the rhythms. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
On 14 Jan 2009 at 13:24, Matt Seattle wrote: Song No 289 Scots Musical Museum (see Note in GNTB - this is what the Notes are there for, hint hint!). Thanks Matt, Personally, I think it would be a good idea if information such as you and others have assembled in the notes to GNTB and other publications. Could be arranged in a computer readable form especially if other researchers could then add to the database as scholarship develops. Your notes indicate a tune called the Reel of Tullochgorum Thomas Wilson's Companion to the Ballroom 1816. Can you confirm/emphasise that this is not Jimmy Allan? In the song strain 1 is unrepeated (4 bars) and strain 2 has 8 bars (unrepeated), so pretty much as you say, though the 8 bars are not the same 4 played twice. The tune in SMM is fairly different from Peacock, which as I said is a relative outlier. I have it. I will transcribe it. If the Peacock version is an outlier then perhaps it should be considered the 'authentic' NSP version from the beginning of the 19th century. I would suggest that when a unch of ne'er do well Northumbrians get their hands on a gem of Scottish musicianship and butcher it to fit their own musical tases or peculiar instrument. Then the new version becomes part of the Northumbrian cultural heritage. I doubt the Scots would want it back after what we did to it. Barry --- Q: Whats the difference between Northumbrian pipes and Scottish pipes. A: Wors is a musical instrument. (Sometimes attributed to Willy Taylor) Also Scottish Music is just a small part of Northumbrian music. and I dont play Irish music. Same source To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Oops typos
For Reel of Tullochgoram Thomas Wilson's read Reel of Tullochgoram in Thomas Wilson's For unch read bunch For tases read tastes Sorry Folks, not good enough. (Slaps own wrist and removes egg from face) Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)
If anyone is interested they can see a version of the Reel of Tullochgorum at: http://www.nigelgatherer.com/tunes/tab/tab9/reelt.html Does anyone on this list have access to any music collections which may contain 'Ian Powrie's Selection of Scottish Country Dance Tunes' published by Mozart Allan, Glasgow (probably in the late 1950s) I don't think we should get too hung up about names. Sir Charles Rant is in 6/8 in the Peacock collection, Whinham's Reel is not a reel Winshield's Hornpipe (?). If Ian Powrie is content to call it the Reel of Tullochgorum that's fine by me. Perhaps he played it with a gob-stopper rhythm. He is well respected in the Scottish Dance Band world, so I think we should have a little respect for his reputation. Referring back to the earlier thread, I think Anthony Robb's point in the magazine was that it is possible to play some tunes as either a rant or a reel and he thought it important to choose the appropriate rhythm when playing in competition. Barry Say I admit to misunderstanding the point being raised but lets face it even the title REEL of Tullochgorum is misleading as a title as the tune is a RANT and not a reel so he mustn't have been a bright spark to have called it that, but there again a Scots hornpipe is not a hornpipe as we know it in Northumberland. Colin R To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
Hi Dave, You are perfectly correct and the words fit perfectly to the tune Tullochgorum which appears in the Peacock collection 180?. So that all ties together. The Reel of Tullochgorum / Jimmy Allen tune is entirely different but I don't want to revisit that one just now. Barry On 13 Jan 2009 at 23:15, Dave S wrote: Hi all, the song whose last line was the reel of tullochgorum was writ by non-other than the Rev John Skinner way back in the good ol'days - 1721-1807. There may just be a tie in to smallpipes because the first line is Come gie's a sang Montgomery cried - ie the Montgomery set --- have fun Dave Singleton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)
I quote from my original posting, -- The Reel of Tullochgorum is almost certainly the same tune but is reckoned to be in D. It was published by Ian Powrie, apparently in the late 1950s and it seems that he claimed that it was a traditional tune which he had collected. Ian lived in Perthshire - so that is the first place we would suspect. --- The Reel of Tullochgorum is nothing like the tune Tulloch Goram which appears in the Peacock Collection, nor is it the reel of Tulloch. I never suggested it was. It seems probable that some Northumbrian musician heard it, stole it and renamed it to disguise its origins. These are techniques handed down to us by the Border Riever. Peter Kennedy collected tunes in the North East of England in the 1940s '50s and '60s and I would suggest that this was the route into the wider English Folk Culture. Since he did not include it in the first two volumes of the Fiddler's Tune Book, I venture to suggest he was unaware of it when he compiled these. Barry On 12 Jan 2009 at 11:41, rosspi...@aol.com wrote: Er, excuse me but am I being a bit thick here or maybe intellectually challenged in not finding any connection between the tune Jimmy Allan and Tullochgorum. First of all they are a different rhythm and secondly the chord structure is different and then basically they do not even sound similar. I would have said that Winster Gallop is nearer but is still different. Is it a case of the emperor's new clothes where you have to agree with the hypothesis to be seen to be with it in finding the similarity even though it is against common sense? I would agree that the origin of the tune is shrouded in mystery and it does seem to be a 'modern' tune and not? contemporanious with the subject. Now there is something that would be worth investigating. Colin R -Original Message- From: Barry Say lt;barr...@nspipes.co.ukgt; To: nsp lt;nsp@cs.dartmouth.edugt; Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:17 Subject: [NSP] Jimmy Allan traditional (?) Hi All,This is a follow-up to an earlier e-mail.As editor of the NPS Magazine, I was well aware of the content of Chris Ormston's article well before the NPS membership or the wider piping community. I refrained from commenting on it or saying anything related to it until the magazine was published. However, it set me thinking. As an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which would serve as initial targets for beginner pipers.In the course of this, Jimmy Allan sprang to mind, but I found that it did not appear in the Peacock Collection, Bewick Book, or the Vickers collection and to my surprise, it did not appear in the first edition of the Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the Fiddler's Tunebook(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy.Peter Kennedy was a pivotal figure in the traditional music scene in the 1950s and 60s and worked extensively in the North-East and is probably the person most responsible for making the music of the ! North-East of England available to the whole of England in that period. I do not intend this as either praise or criticism.I had always assumed from its name that it was part of the Northumbrian tradition, but I am beginning to suspect that we have been deceived by our own willingness to believe that which seems convenient.The tune as we know it appears in the EFDSS Community dance manual volume 6 on a page with two tunes composed in 1961. The copyright dates would indicate that it was publised in 1964 or 1967. I cannot lay my hands on my copy of this but I amn sure that this publication was certainly part of Peter Kennedy's sphere of influence, but the fact that it does not appear in the first two volumes of the Fiddlers Tunebook, would indicate that he was unaware of it in 1951 and had found it by 1964.The Reel of Tullochgorum is almost certainly the same tune but is reckoned to be in D. It was published by Ian Powrie, apparently in ! the late 1950s and it seems that he claimed that it was a tr! aditiona l tune which he had collected. Ian lived in Perthshire - so that is the first place we would suspect.Now we come to the important link. Ian Powrie lead a Scottish Dance Band which appeared on the 'White Heather Club', a television program which I know was available in the North East (of England), because I saw it.So - unless someone can come up with some other evidence - the best story I can come up with is that: Ian Powrie collected the 'Reel of Tullochgorum' in North-East Scotland. A Northumbrian musician picked it up through the White Heather Club (or some other route)It was adopted by the Northumbrian piping community who would insist on playing it in nominal 'G
[NSP] Jimmy Allan traditional (?)
Hi All, This is a follow-up to an earlier e-mail. As editor of the NPS Magazine, I was well aware of the content of Chris Ormston's article well before the NPS membership or the wider piping community. I refrained from commenting on it or saying anything related to it until the magazine was published. However, it set me thinking. As an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which would serve as initial targets for beginner pipers. In the course of this, Jimmy Allan sprang to mind, but I found that it did not appear in the Peacock Collection, Bewick Book, or the Vickers collection and to my surprise, it did not appear in the first edition of the Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the Fiddler's Tunebook(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy. Peter Kennedy was a pivotal figure in the traditional music scene in the 1950s and 60s and worked extensively in the North-East and is probably the person most responsible for making the music of the North-East of England available to the whole of England in that period. I do not intend this as either praise or criticism. I had always assumed from its name that it was part of the Northumbrian tradition, but I am beginning to suspect that we have been deceived by our own willingness to believe that which seems convenient. The tune as we know it appears in the EFDSS Community dance manual volume 6 on a page with two tunes composed in 1961. The copyright dates would indicate that it was publised in 1964 or 1967. I cannot lay my hands on my copy of this but I amn sure that this publication was certainly part of Peter Kennedy's sphere of influence, but the fact that it does not appear in the first two volumes of the Fiddlers Tunebook, would indicate that he was unaware of it in 1951 and had found it by 1964. The Reel of Tullochgorum is almost certainly the same tune but is reckoned to be in D. It was published by Ian Powrie, apparently in the late 1950s and it seems that he claimed that it was a traditional tune which he had collected. Ian lived in Perthshire - so that is the first place we would suspect. Now we come to the important link. Ian Powrie lead a Scottish Dance Band which appeared on the 'White Heather Club', a television program which I know was available in the North East (of England), because I saw it. So - unless someone can come up with some other evidence - the best story I can come up with is that: Ian Powrie collected the 'Reel of Tullochgorum' in North-East Scotland. A Northumbrian musician picked it up through the White Heather Club (or some other route) It was adopted by the Northumbrian piping community who would insist on playing it in nominal 'G'. --- I have mentioned some of this to Matt Seattle, who, at the time I contacted him, had no recollection of finding Jimmy Allan or any related tunes in his researches. If any list members can cast any further light on this, I would be most grateful. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Correct grade of oi l?
On 27 Oct 2008 at 10:40, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use neatsfoot and have had no problems. c I heartily endorse Christopher's opinion. However, the quality of the neatsfoot is of paramount importance. There is a lot of inferior stuff on the market. I think we should be talking only about pure neatsfoot. It should be a clear liquid even down to quite low temperatures. Personally, I have been using Fiebing's oil. As neatsfoot oil is a saturated animal oil, it does not dry out and mixes well with beeswax on the thread wrappings on various parts of the pipes. It seems to stay where it is put pretty well. I find absolutely no problem and see no reason to change. It has been in use within the piping community over many years. If the chanter seems to be drinking oil I would certainly use olive oil or raw linseed oil in the bore. these will penetrate the pores in the woodeand set to provide a shiny surface which will improve the tone of the wood. For Olive oil I prefer a very light coloured oil and I leave the bottle in sunshine to bleach it. In my youth, olive oil was only obtainable from a chemist and was used as a laxative and to dissolve earwax. You certainly wouldn't cook with it or consume it except in dire need. Some pipers have used Almond Oil. I keep well away from liquid paraffin. It is chemically inert and there is very little chance of it clinging to the wood. I fear that as a solvent it will draw the natural oils out of the wood and may cause damage if used for extensive periods. Similarly, I suspect it will dissolve the beeswax on the thread wrappings, causing them to dry out and wear out. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: g set
On 29 May 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: continued use of the left thumb from one note to another (c# and d#) Does anyone know why the C# is usually next to the D on the right of the chanter, and the D# next to the E on the left? I know of one maker who reverses them, so you can play C#-D left pinky right thumb and D#-E right thumb left pinky. I'm surprised this arrangement is not more popular. My understanding is that the 14 key chromatic chanter (D - b) preceded any extension of the chanter to lower notes. Thus, it would obviously be more convenient to put the D# with the D, leaving only 3 keys for the less agile little finger. If one pairs the C# with the E this means that the length of the key from the pivot to the tone hole would be much longer for the C# than the E and the two arms of the lever would be unbalanced. It can be Thidone but it is not the best. Interestingly, Andy May showed me me a chanter he has made which is a copy of a G G Armstrong chanter in his possession This in turn appears to be a copy of a Reid chanter in the bagpipe museum. The low E key is not paired with any other, and rather than the tone hole being exactly on the side of the chanter, it is moved slightly to the front. This allows the low G# and the Bb in the middle of the chanter to be moved closer to the little finger side, being at an angle of thirty degrees, rather than the more usual 45 degrees. This means that the pivot block for the Bb is further from the centre back of the chanter, allowing a flat area on the back of the chanter for the thumb. When I transferred from a 7 key to a 17 key chanter, the intrusion of the Bb block into the area where the the right thumb rested on the back of the chanter was the greatest difficulty I faced. Barry Say To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] NPS Monday meetings
The committee of the NPS are developing a program for Society meetings at the Chantry, Morpeth. Details will, of course, be published in the Society Newsletter, but in the meantime, pipers within reach of Morpeth might like to visit the NPS website http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/program.htm where they will find information about the 'Monday' meetings. (The next one is on the 14th of May. Barry Say To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Which way should drone reed tongues face?
Is there any reason, acoustic or otherwise, to have the drone reed tongues face a particular direction when they are in their stock? To the best of my knowledge there is no preferred direction. Other things being equal I point the tongues towards the centre of the cavity. This gives the tongues the maximum space in which to vibrate. I understand this is more critical for all-cane reeds as opposed to the composite which I use. Still, in both cases it is very imortant that no par of the blade or body of the reed comes into contact with the drone stock. The only acoustic effect I know of in this area is where a drone switch is fitted. Here there are generally two drones in a small cavity and the reed blades face each other. When they are slightly out of tune a large amplitude beat frequency can be heard, much more apparent than anything on a standard set of drones. I think this is due to the larger drone 'stealing' air from the smaller, but that is merely my guess. Thats my tuppenyworth. Barry Say -- B J Say Smallpipes - http://www.nspipes.co.uk Making and Repairing Bagpipes in the Northumbrian Tradition. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Maintaining NSP standards
This follows on (of course) from the choyting-penguin-detached- staccato-cafe-latte discussion. Even before this discussion blew up, I had been wondering for some time how standards were set in the world of Northumbrian (small)piping. Although I had been aware of and interested in NSP since the mid 1960s, I didnt get my hands on any sort of set until the 1980s and didn't get involved with the NPS until the 1990s. At that time there were far fewer recordings available than there are now, and the major chance of exposure to good piping was through Society meetings. As a beginner, I was tremendously impressed by the tolerance of of the piping community in meetings and sessions. I also enjoyed the controversy which could spring up, setting one style against another, arguing the pros and cons. After all, who really expects pipers to agree. Over the last 15 or so years, I have come to the conclusion that playing standards on the Northumbrian smallpipes are maintained by the competition judges. There are currently 6 competitions in the North-East and Borders -- Morpeth Gathering, Newcastleton Festival, Rothbury Gathering, Bellingham Show, the NPS competitions and the Alnwick Gathering. Of these, the NPS controls its own competitions and provides advice and support to the Bellingham Show, if requested. Otherwise, the organisers choose their own judges. Currently, the overwhelming majority of these judges are Vice- Presidents or Honorary Members of the NPS, but this is in no way inhibits their independence.. Competition organisers may issue guidelines or instructions or even COMMANDS to judges, but in practice, the judges make their own decisions and the organisers have to abide by them. Although the judges have different playing styles, the standards by which they judge seem remarkably consistent. 15 years - 90 competitions (maybe). I have attended perhaps 70 as competitor or observer. While on several occasions I and others disagreed with the judge's decision (and said so), I have only been truly dissatisfied with the judging on 2 or 3 occasions. Let me say that one of the judges I was dissatisfied with, awarded me the trophy. Although the numbers of participants and audience at competitions are a minority of pipers, I believe that the spoken comments of judges can be very important in maintaining and advancing piping standards. Barry Say To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Northumbrian headdress
On 22 Feb 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: b) Is it possible to get hold of a Northumbrian flag? It seems the council have them, but refuse to tell us mere plebs where they can be aquired (more than their job's worth)...Somebody makes them, but who? Try www.mrflag.com http://www.mrflag.com/p/5212/EnglandNorthumberland.html 18x12in cost 22 UKP 180x90 in cost 217 UKP Barry Say To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
