Re: [NTG-context] Bibliography in MKIV, custom rendering

[Rik Kabel]

On 2017-08-12 22:38, Alan Braslau wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 14:58:53 -0400
Rik Kabel  wrote:


The lack of either an author or an editor is currently flagged in
ConTeXt as an error for books and perhaps other bibtex entry types as
well. Or do you mean to apply this recommendation to only the
electronic type or some other limited subset of types?

This will be corrected for types other than electronic when I look into
a consistent set.


Perhaps it is better to use the association name as an author and
protect it with a layer of curlies or quotation marks, as {{Apple,
Inc.}}, "{Apple, Inc.}", or '{Apple, Inc.}', any one of which will do
the job and also serve to prevent what would surely be unwanted
abbreviation for styles that abbreviate what are parsed as given
names.

This won't happen. We made a design choice not to follow such sloppy
bibtex/LaTeX use and to require clean datasets. Apple Inc. is NOT a
named author, it is an organization, and the APA specification is clear
about this (it even has screwy rules about the first citation and then
the following when one should abbreviate names [such as APA]). Of
course, the specifications have to be fixed to handle this correctly
and consistently, also trying to be consistent with the fields that are
defined by the original bibtex documentation and followed by many
bibtex manipulating tools (such as jabref). The problem is that the use
of bibtex in the real world is a big mess!

ALan


So organization will simply become a stand-in for author but with 
different parsing rules. A book will require an author or editor or 
organization. The first two will be parsed for surname, given name, and 
so on, while the last will not, and precedence rules will apply when 
more than one is present, as they do already.


But until that point, as Hans said, using the author field and 
protecting it with curlies will work.


How will other screwy rules be handled? Will there be an override 
mechanism, or is it your belief that a compliant subsystem can be 
developed? (Yes, I know that is a false dichotomy.)


--
Rik

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Re: [NTG-context] combined / compressed / collapsed page and numbered citation references in bibliographies

[Rik Kabel]

On 2017-08-12 22:30, Alan Braslau wrote:

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 20:32:17 -0400
Rik Kabel  wrote:


I noticed that in bibliographies, page indexing combines runs of two
or more pages (pp. 150­–151), as does page number compression in
registers, while it takes three or more numbered citations to cause a
similar collapse (per the MKIV-Publications manual, page 38, I do not
have an example) for citation number references.

Is there a way to change such compression minimums so that they can
be made consistent?

What seems more logical to you?
pp 150,151 or pp 150-151 - of course pp 150-152 makes perfect sense.
[2,3] or [2-3] - of course [2-4] also makes sense.

I prefer the first choices. ConTeXt registers do the second, and I do
not know what led to that choice and if Hans would like to change it
(or even make this a parameter).

Alan


I am looking for consistency.

For page references, the bibliography subsystem gives:

 * pp. 1–2
 * pp. 1–3
 * p. 1 and p. 3

and numeric citations apparently produce:

 * [1,2]
 * [1–3]
 * [1,3]

while the index registers give:

 * 1–2
 * 1–3
 * 1, 3

Why is the ‘and’ needed in the bibliography page reference? One could 
also ask why the ‘p.’ and ‘pp.’, but in the more verbose setting of a 
bibliography, I can live with them.


As for the choice of two or more over three or more for compression, I 
can see arguments for each. A default and the ability to change it seems 
best, especially for bibliographic entries where publishers have 
overriding standards.


--
Rik

--
Rik

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Re: [NTG-context] Bibliography in MKIV, custom rendering

[Alan Braslau]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 14:58:53 -0400
Rik Kabel  wrote:

> The lack of either an author or an editor is currently flagged in 
> ConTeXt as an error for books and perhaps other bibtex entry types as 
> well. Or do you mean to apply this recommendation to only the
> electronic type or some other limited subset of types?

This will be corrected for types other than electronic when I look into
a consistent set.

> Perhaps it is better to use the association name as an author and 
> protect it with a layer of curlies or quotation marks, as {{Apple, 
> Inc.}}, "{Apple, Inc.}", or '{Apple, Inc.}', any one of which will do 
> the job and also serve to prevent what would surely be unwanted 
> abbreviation for styles that abbreviate what are parsed as given
> names.

This won't happen. We made a design choice not to follow such sloppy
bibtex/LaTeX use and to require clean datasets. Apple Inc. is NOT a
named author, it is an organization, and the APA specification is clear
about this (it even has screwy rules about the first citation and then
the following when one should abbreviate names [such as APA]). Of
course, the specifications have to be fixed to handle this correctly
and consistently, also trying to be consistent with the fields that are
defined by the original bibtex documentation and followed by many
bibtex manipulating tools (such as jabref). The problem is that the use
of bibtex in the real world is a big mess!

ALan
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Re: [NTG-context] combined / compressed / collapsed page and numbered citation references in bibliographies

[Alan Braslau]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 20:32:17 -0400
Rik Kabel  wrote:

> I noticed that in bibliographies, page indexing combines runs of two
> or more pages (pp. 150­–151), as does page number compression in
> registers, while it takes three or more numbered citations to cause a
> similar collapse (per the MKIV-Publications manual, page 38, I do not
> have an example) for citation number references.
> 
> Is there a way to change such compression minimums so that they can
> be made consistent?

What seems more logical to you? 
pp 150,151 or pp 150-151 - of course pp 150-152 makes perfect sense.
[2,3] or [2-3] - of course [2-4] also makes sense.

I prefer the first choices. ConTeXt registers do the second, and I do
not know what led to that choice and if Hans would like to change it
(or even make this a parameter).

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] Interaction in bibliographies

[Alan Braslau]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 20:31:23 -0400
Rik Kabel  wrote:

> MKIV Publications 
> ,
> page 46, states:
> 
> If interaction is active (\setupinteraction[state=start]), then
> these page numbers will be hyperlinks back to the citations. If
> numbering=yes, then the numbered bibliography entries will also
> contain hyperlinks back to the first occurrence in the text where
> the entry is cited (which is the same as the first page indexed).
> 
> However, that does not seem to be the case, either in my own
> documents or in that manual, which clearly has interaction enabled
> for other items.
> 
> Is the manual incorrect, or is this a bug?

Hans has worked on the interaction, so you should use
\setupbtx[interaction=number]
other choices are page, text, or all.

But there can be other interaction, depending on the specification.
APA and APS will create hyperlinks for url or doi. The title can also
be active, opening a file if this field is specified.

We are updating the manual.

Alan
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[NTG-context] combined / compressed / collapsed page and numbered citation references in bibliographies

[Rik Kabel]

I noticed that in bibliographies, page indexing combines runs of two or 
more pages (pp. 150­–151), as does page number compression in registers, 
while it takes three or more numbered citations to cause a similar 
collapse (per the MKIV-Publications manual, page 38, I do not have an 
example) for citation number references.


Is there a way to change such compression minimums so that they can be 
made consistent?


--
Rik

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[NTG-context] Interaction in bibliographies

[Rik Kabel]

MKIV Publications 
, page 
46, states:


   If interaction is active (\setupinteraction[state=start]), then
   these page numbers will be hyperlinks back to the citations. If
   numbering=yes, then the numbered bibliography entries will also
   contain hyperlinks back to the first occurrence in the text where
   the entry is cited (which is the same as the first page indexed).

However, that does not seem to be the case, either in my own documents 
or in that manual, which clearly has interaction enabled for other items.


Is the manual incorrect, or is this a bug?

--
Rik


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Re: [NTG-context] STIX Two Text and Math

[Ken Moffat]

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 12:08:06AM +0200, Fabrice Couvreur wrote:
> Hi Hans,
> I downloaded the fonts and it works perfectly.
> What do you think are the finest fonts for writing a book with mathematics ?
> Are Cambria fonts free ? If so where can they be downloaded ?
> Thank you
> Fabrice
> 
I'm not Hans, so I won't offer my opinions about finest.  But I can
clarify re Cambria:

Cambria is not free in the sense of 'libre'.  The alternative is
Caladea which has the same metrics but is not the same (e.g. higher
curl from top of lowercase 'g').  I have a comparison using a short
part of Lorem ipsum at
http://zarniwhoop.uk/files/PDF-substitutes/cambria-substitutes.pdf

If you want it, you can downlaod it from
http://gsdview.appspot.com/chromeos-localmirror/distfiles/crosextrafonts-20130214.tar.gz

Since I've pointed to my site, I'll mention that I have details,
including PDFs of language coverage and the glyphs in a font, at
http://zarniwhoop.uk/ttf-otf-notes.html .

My interest is in maximising the languages I can render when I'm off
following links on wikipedia, not in outputing maths.  So no examples
of italics, although the 'contents' PDFs attempt to show everything
included in a font in its normal style - they will show maths glyphs
if you know the unicode codepoint to look for.

Of course, for plain text there are many other OTF/TTF fonts.  My
site has over 190, but not all of them cover English.  Some are easy
to read, others can look small at the same nominal size.  The
lipsum-serif-*.pdf files in http://zarniwhoop.uk/files/PDF-lipsum/
might be useful.

ĸen
-- 
I live in a city. I know sparrows from starlings.  After that
everything is a duck as far as I'm concerned.  -- Monstrous Regiment
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Re: [NTG-context] STIX Two Text and Math

[Hans Hagen]

On 8/13/2017 12:08 AM, Fabrice Couvreur wrote:

Hi Hans,
I downloaded the fonts and it works perfectly.
What do you think are the finest fonts for writing a book with mathematics ?


pagella or lucida


Are Cambria fonts free ? If so where can they be downloaded ?


on windows machines


Thank you
Fabrice

2017-08-12 13:01 GMT+02:00 Hans Hagen >:


On 8/12/2017 11:49 AM, Fabrice Couvreur wrote:

Has anyone ever used these fonts ?


not me

If so, do you need to write a script to use them ?


no, you can say:

\setupbodyfont[stixtwo]

Hans

-
   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
   Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl
 | www.pragma-pod.nl

-

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--

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] STIX Two Text and Math

[Fabrice Couvreur]

Hi Hans,
I downloaded the fonts and it works perfectly.
What do you think are the finest fonts for writing a book with mathematics ?
Are Cambria fonts free ? If so where can they be downloaded ?
Thank you
Fabrice

2017-08-12 13:01 GMT+02:00 Hans Hagen :

> On 8/12/2017 11:49 AM, Fabrice Couvreur wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever used these fonts ?
>>
>
> not me
>
> If so, do you need to write a script to use them ?
>>
>
> no, you can say:
>
> \setupbodyfont[stixtwo]
>
> Hans
>
> -
>   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>   Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -
> 
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[NTG-context] packed slashes and hyphenate after slash in urls

[Pablo Rodriguez]

Hans,

I have the following sample:

\setuppapersize[A8]
%~ \enabledirectives[hyphenators.urls.packslashes]
\sethyphenatedurlafter{/}
\starttext
\hsize\zeropoint
\tt\hyphenatedurl{/home//user/Documents/},
\stoptext

To prevent having http:// (or similar protocols) with one slash ending
one line and other beginning the next one, I have to use the commented
directive.

But the directive only works if \setuphypenatedafter (or before) doesn’t
contain the slide between its characters.

The sample above shows, how not setting \setuphyphenatedurlafter{/}, may
start the line with "/,"

Would it be possible that both options were available: packed slashes
and hyphenation after (or before) the slash, both in urls?

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: [NTG-context] Bibliography in MKIV, custom rendering

[Hans Hagen]

On 8/12/2017 5:48 PM, Rik Kabel wrote:

Sorry, rereading what I wrote, I see that I mistakenly suggested that 
the btx subsystem does not support origdate. It does, but it is a 
non-standard extension of bibtex, which was my point.


actually ther eis no bib tex standard at all ... it's just a set of 
fields organized by a unique identifier .. then some style make sure 
that the fields get rendered (and apa is a set of rules for fields + 
rendering ... a pretty complex and occasionally fuzzy one but Alan can 
elaborate on that)


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] Bibliography in MKIV, custom rendering

[Rik Kabel]

On 2017-08-12 11:28, Rik Kabel wrote:

On 2017-08-12 04:54, Hans Hagen wrote:

On 8/11/2017 8:58 PM, Rik Kabel wrote:

On 2017-08-11 10:01, Alan Braslau wrote:

...


2) Apple Inc. is not a name so you should not be using author:
organization is more appropriate.


I do not think that this should be the case.

APA and Chicago/Turbanian (and doubtless others) accept association 
names as author names, and provide rules for handling them.


and as a consequence i bet this is why journals get typeset partly by 
hand (tweak and cheat on these things) ... and why each publisher 
then has its own style (with cheats and tricks)


The lack of either an author or an editor is currently flagged in 
ConTeXt as an error for books and perhaps other bibtex entry types 
as well. Or do you mean to apply this recommendation to only the 
electronic type or some other limited subset of types?


Perhaps it is better to use the association name as an author and 
protect it with a layer of curlies or quotation marks, as {{Apple, 
Inc.}}, "{Apple, Inc.}", or '{Apple, Inc.}', any one of which will do 


one can do that of course (an dit will work) but then someone will 
come along and say that ...


our recomendation is that one spends some time on a proper database 
as it pays off


the job and also serve to prevent what would surely be unwanted 
abbreviation for styles that abbreviate what are parsed as given names.
we really try to get away from fuzzyness ... in fact, the bib format 
or at least the way it's often used is a structural coding nightmare 
(and often tex commands are then used to bypass things) .. i think 
that it never went through a proper 'design, test, review, revise' cycle


reverse engineering what is there + side effects took us quite a 
while and esp the author bit is a pain (this parsing) ... there have 
been proposals for alternatives in the past decades (take mlbibtex) 
but so far we're stuck with historic stuff: making a database in a 
format that is not that suitable (no nesting) using practices that 
are counter intuitive and demand lots of obscure magic


(one day Alan will wrap this up in an article)

Hans


Alan has stated elsewhere that his intent is to provide first an 
APA-compliant subsystem, and to add after that support for other 
regimes. He has also expressed an understandable reluctance to add 
non-standard fields to bibtex. But it is clearly impossible to provide 
an APA-compliant system under such a constraint—for example, for some 
works APA requires an original publication date and bibtex does not 
support that. It is similarly difficult to see how one can comply with 
other requirements of APA, such as square brackets around estimated 
dates for archival sources (how do you identify an estimated date?), 
constructing shortened titles that are then alphabetized by the first 
non-significant word, spelling out author names where two or more 
authors share the same abbreviated names, and so on. Biblatex attempts 
to address some of these issues with an explosion of new fields, and 
still, I think, does not succeed. CSL may do a better job on some of 
these, but again, I do not think that the type of organic standards 
set forth by APA and others are fully amenable to any automated 
parsing. This is why I suggested to Alan (off-line) that we need a 
mechanism to override the generated citation and 
bibliography/reference list entries with customized versions (\citeas, 
or additional fields for \cite).


Clearly bibtex is not compatible with the requirements of current 
documentation standards. Those who require compliant citation to 
whatever standard with which they are burdened need a better database, 
support for conversion from bibtex, and a mechanism to override 
whatever automated result is produced. Of these, the last is most 
crucial.


As to the specific issue of association names as author names: Why is 
widening the definition of the author name field using an 
already-supported protection mechanism worse than overloading the use 
of the organization field, which is intended denote an affiliation and 
is not currently supported in the major entry categories?


Sorry, rereading what I wrote, I see that I mistakenly suggested that 
the btx subsystem does not support origdate. It does, but it is a 
non-standard extension of bibtex, which was my point.


--
Rik

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Re: [NTG-context] Bibliography in MKIV, custom rendering

[Rik Kabel]

On 2017-08-12 04:54, Hans Hagen wrote:

On 8/11/2017 8:58 PM, Rik Kabel wrote:

On 2017-08-11 10:01, Alan Braslau wrote:

...


2) Apple Inc. is not a name so you should not be using author:
organization is more appropriate.


I do not think that this should be the case.

APA and Chicago/Turbanian (and doubtless others) accept association 
names as author names, and provide rules for handling them.


and as a consequence i bet this is why journals get typeset partly by 
hand (tweak and cheat on these things) ... and why each publisher then 
has its own style (with cheats and tricks)


The lack of either an author or an editor is currently flagged in 
ConTeXt as an error for books and perhaps other bibtex entry types as 
well. Or do you mean to apply this recommendation to only the 
electronic type or some other limited subset of types?


Perhaps it is better to use the association name as an author and 
protect it with a layer of curlies or quotation marks, as {{Apple, 
Inc.}}, "{Apple, Inc.}", or '{Apple, Inc.}', any one of which will do 


one can do that of course (an dit will work) but then someone will 
come along and say that ...


our recomendation is that one spends some time on a proper database as 
it pays off


the job and also serve to prevent what would surely be unwanted 
abbreviation for styles that abbreviate what are parsed as given names.
we really try to get away from fuzzyness ... in fact, the bib format 
or at least the way it's often used is a structural coding nightmare 
(and often tex commands are then used to bypass things) .. i think 
that it never went through a proper 'design, test, review, revise' cycle


reverse engineering what is there + side effects took us quite a while 
and esp the author bit is a pain (this parsing) ... there have been 
proposals for alternatives in the past decades (take mlbibtex) but so 
far we're stuck with historic stuff: making a database in a format 
that is not that suitable (no nesting) using practices that are 
counter intuitive and demand lots of obscure magic


(one day Alan will wrap this up in an article)

Hans


Alan has stated elsewhere that his intent is to provide first an 
APA-compliant subsystem, and to add after that support for other 
regimes. He has also expressed an understandable reluctance to add 
non-standard fields to bibtex. But it is clearly impossible to provide 
an APA-compliant system under such a constraint—for example, for some 
works APA requires an original publication date and bibtex does not 
support that. It is similarly difficult to see how one can comply with 
other requirements of APA, such as square brackets around estimated 
dates for archival sources (how do you identify an estimated date?), 
constructing shortened titles that are then alphabetized by the first 
non-significant word, spelling out author names where two or more 
authors share the same abbreviated names, and so on. Biblatex attempts 
to address some of these issues with an explosion of new fields, and 
still, I think, does not succeed. CSL may do a better job on some of 
these, but again, I do not think that the type of organic standards set 
forth by APA and others are fully amenable to any automated parsing. 
This is why I suggested to Alan (off-line) that we need a mechanism to 
override the generated citation and bibliography/reference list entries 
with customized versions (\citeas, or additional fields for \cite).


Clearly bibtex is not compatible with the requirements of current 
documentation standards. Those who require compliant citation to 
whatever standard with which they are burdened need a better database, 
support for conversion from bibtex, and a mechanism to override whatever 
automated result is produced. Of these, the last is most crucial.


As to the specific issue of association names as author names: Why is 
widening the definition of the author name field using an 
already-supported protection mechanism worse than overloading the use of 
the organization field, which is intended denote an affiliation and is 
not currently supported in the major entry categories?


--
Rik

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Re: [NTG-context] xml verbatim in xml...

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 08/09/2017 08:48 AM, Schmitz Thomas A. wrote:
> 
>> On 8. Aug 2017, at 23:26, Pablo Rodriguez  wrote:
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> \xmlprettyprint seems an easier approach.
> 
> Thank you, I did’n know about \xmlprettyprint. But I want to define
> my own prettyprinters, so it’s not suitable for my purpose. And it
> doesn’t solve the issue I was asking about.

Thomas,

as you may already know, the issue is fixed with \xmlprettyprint (but
not with your sample) in latest beta.

Just in case it helps,

Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: [NTG-context] STIX Two Text and Math

[Hans Hagen]

On 8/12/2017 11:49 AM, Fabrice Couvreur wrote:


Has anyone ever used these fonts ?


not me


If so, do you need to write a script to use them ?


no, you can say:

\setupbodyfont[stixtwo]

Hans

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[NTG-context] STIX Two Text and Math

[Fabrice Couvreur]

Hi,
Hello,
Has anyone ever used these fonts ?
If so, do you need to write a script to use them ?
Thank you
Fabrice
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Re: [NTG-context] Bibliography in MKIV, custom rendering

[Hans Hagen]

On 8/11/2017 8:58 PM, Rik Kabel wrote:

On 2017-08-11 10:01, Alan Braslau wrote:

...


2) Apple Inc. is not a name so you should not be using author:
organization is more appropriate.


I do not think that this should be the case.

APA and Chicago/Turbanian (and doubtless others) accept association 
names as author names, and provide rules for handling them.


and as a consequence i bet this is why journals get typeset partly by 
hand (tweak and cheat on these things) ... and why each publisher then 
has its own style (with cheats and tricks)


The lack of either an author or an editor is currently flagged in 
ConTeXt as an error for books and perhaps other bibtex entry types as 
well. Or do you mean to apply this recommendation to only the electronic 
type or some other limited subset of types?


Perhaps it is better to use the association name as an author and 
protect it with a layer of curlies or quotation marks, as {{Apple, 
Inc.}}, "{Apple, Inc.}", or '{Apple, Inc.}', any one of which will do 


one can do that of course (an dit will work) but then someone will come 
along and say that ...


our recomendation is that one spends some time on a proper database as 
it pays off


the job and also serve to prevent what would surely be unwanted 
abbreviation for styles that abbreviate what are parsed as given names.
we really try to get away from fuzzyness ... in fact, the bib format or 
at least the way it's often used is a structural coding nightmare (and 
often tex commands are then used to bypass things) .. i think that it 
never went through a proper 'design, test, review, revise' cycle


reverse engineering what is there + side effects took us quite a while 
and esp the author bit is a pain (this parsing) ... there have been 
proposals for alternatives in the past decades (take mlbibtex) but so 
far we're stuck with historic stuff: making a database in a format that 
is not that suitable (no nesting) using practices that are counter 
intuitive and demand lots of obscure magic


(one day Alan will wrap this up in an article)

Hans

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