Re: The Impossible Question
Great discussion on an important topic. If I may, I'd like to add a ux perspective. Support and help systems are very important and necessary, however, my goal is to mitigate the need to such assets at the tool level. For example, rather than put energey into updating the install documents, we could explore design alternatives to deliver a better install experience. One click install, with popular app marketplace integrations and easy updates come to mind. Then provide a great first use experience that helps users add extensions and configure their tools. More broadly, beyond install and config, we could look to bring the great support and user assistance assets to the user in the context of the tool itself. For example, we could integrate help and support into the task pane (side bar). Regards, Kevin On Sunday, October 28, 2012, Kay Schenk wrote: On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.orgjavascript:; wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.netjavascript:; wrote: On Oct 26, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Hi Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading, installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse. They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them. What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much an improved version of the old but of course the ecosystem needs further fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence. I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and doesn't really know where to go….. So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make it clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have a knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members. But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I personally would include something in the installation sets that point to the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages. Ideas? We could emulate a version of what the ASF does to highlight the many projects. Take a look at www.apache.org - you will see a feature project section. Perhaps on www.openoffice.org we can add a Featured Support Question / Language / News. This would be backed by an xml file of FAQs, Languages and News which would randomly be selected every day and republished to the front page. I like the idea in general, but from a support perspective I think we need to get the feed down to the client. Why? Because users have no current reason to visit www.openoffice.org homepage on a regular basis. It is not really a necessary place for them to visit, once they've downloaded. Most users just want to get their work done. They don't have any emotional attachment to AOO. It is just a tool. If they are thinking about their tools rather then their work, then something is probably wrong. This is not sexy, Apple-like technology that users go gooey over. It is a good day that a user thinks about their document, but not about their word processor. The task is in the forefront, the tool recedes into the background, like any good tool an extension of the user. Well, that's one ideal, at least. So in terms of priorities, we should want: 1) Fewer bugs, not more bug FAQ's 2) Less need for support, not a more prominent support page Well this is the ideal of course. In some cases though, what a user already has running on their system may be a major culprit and something we can't control or deal with easily (yep! I spent a number of years in User Support as well). 3) More quick avenues for self-help rather than hard-to-scale support offerings 4) More skill-building pages, ways user can become more productive with the tools. We could make a destination that users would actually visit if we could pull together solid content on power tips, extensions reviews, lists of topical templates (for holidays, tax time, etc.). -Rob I don't know ANYTHING about how the Help (the Support menu item) pages for AOO are constructed (maybe time I learned?). There's already a LOT of information under Common Help Topics. But, maybe we need to spend some time revisiting this area and see if the topics still meet current needs (in the product itself). Some of the issues that have been reported recently are very odd but maybe there's a reason. This would be the most
Re: The Impossible Question
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Oct 26, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Hi Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading, installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse. They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them. What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much an improved version of the old but of course the ecosystem needs further fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence. I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and doesn't really know where to go….. So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make it clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have a knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members. But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I personally would include something in the installation sets that point to the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages. Ideas? We could emulate a version of what the ASF does to highlight the many projects. Take a look at www.apache.org - you will see a feature project section. Perhaps on www.openoffice.org we can add a Featured Support Question / Language / News. This would be backed by an xml file of FAQs, Languages and News which would randomly be selected every day and republished to the front page. hmmm...an interesting idea. This would be easier to implement if our items were in a DB of some sort. Otherwise I'm clueless has to how we could realistically do this. Regards, Dave Yeah, I got to thinking more after I posted this yesterday. For starters, maybe we should put together a Support FAQ or Problem Shortlist and link that prominently on the support page. This would take some time to cull through issues, but I think we already have a pretty good idea about what some of these are. I'm thinking of a rather short list here -- like maybe 10 - 20 items. Also, what about the Support page. Is the order of items OK. If not, what should they be? Thanks Louis -- MzK Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat. -- Robert Heinlein
Re: The Impossible Question
On 12-10-27, at 13:05 , Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: Also, what about the Support page. Is the order of items OK. If not, what should they be? The order there is totally up for grabs and there is no reason in that page's case to abide by precedent (just the expectation that others probably have of how things ought to be laid out—but even here, that is a little up in the air, if not cloud). It was cobbled together by several, and the work they did was superb—thanks! But expectations have changed and so have what can or ought to be listed there. Originally, the page was conceived using the old CollabNet static pages. That was a while ago, and in that while, we've come to use the New Millennium's technology. -louis
Re: The Impossible Question
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.com wrote: On 12-10-27, at 13:05 , Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: Also, what about the Support page. Is the order of items OK. If not, what should they be? The order there is totally up for grabs and there is no reason in that page's case to abide by precedent (just the expectation that others probably have of how things ought to be laid out—but even here, that is a little up in the air, if not cloud). It was cobbled together by several, and the work they did was superb—thanks! But expectations have changed and so have what can or ought to be listed there. Louis, it sounds like you are almost saying something, but not quite. Could you be more specific, or give an example? Thanks! -Rob Originally, the page was conceived using the old CollabNet static pages. That was a while ago, and in that while, we've come to use the New Millennium's technology. -louis
Re: The Impossible Question
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Oct 26, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Hi Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading, installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse. They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them. What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much an improved version of the old but of course the ecosystem needs further fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence. I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and doesn't really know where to go….. So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make it clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have a knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members. But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I personally would include something in the installation sets that point to the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages. Ideas? We could emulate a version of what the ASF does to highlight the many projects. Take a look at www.apache.org - you will see a feature project section. Perhaps on www.openoffice.org we can add a Featured Support Question / Language / News. This would be backed by an xml file of FAQs, Languages and News which would randomly be selected every day and republished to the front page. I like the idea in general, but from a support perspective I think we need to get the feed down to the client. Why? Because users have no current reason to visit www.openoffice.org homepage on a regular basis. It is not really a necessary place for them to visit, once they've downloaded. Most users just want to get their work done. They don't have any emotional attachment to AOO. It is just a tool. If they are thinking about their tools rather then their work, then something is probably wrong. This is not sexy, Apple-like technology that users go gooey over. It is a good day that a user thinks about their document, but not about their word processor. The task is in the forefront, the tool recedes into the background, like any good tool an extension of the user. Well, that's one ideal, at least. So in terms of priorities, we should want: 1) Fewer bugs, not more bug FAQ's 2) Less need for support, not a more prominent support page Well this is the ideal of course. In some cases though, what a user already has running on their system may be a major culprit and something we can't control or deal with easily (yep! I spent a number of years in User Support as well). 3) More quick avenues for self-help rather than hard-to-scale support offerings 4) More skill-building pages, ways user can become more productive with the tools. We could make a destination that users would actually visit if we could pull together solid content on power tips, extensions reviews, lists of topical templates (for holidays, tax time, etc.). -Rob I don't know ANYTHING about how the Help (the Support menu item) pages for AOO are constructed (maybe time I learned?). There's already a LOT of information under Common Help Topics. But, maybe we need to spend some time revisiting this area and see if the topics still meet current needs (in the product itself). Some of the issues that have been reported recently are very odd but maybe there's a reason. This would be the most direct route for the end user I assume. Regards, Dave Thanks Louis -- MzK Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat. -- Robert Heinlein
The Impossible Question
Hi Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading, installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse. They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them. What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much an improved version of the old but of course the ecosystem needs further fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence. I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and doesn't really know where to go….. So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make it clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have a knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members. But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I personally would include something in the installation sets that point to the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages. Ideas? Thanks Louis
Re: The Impossible Question
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.org wrote: Hi Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading, installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse. They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them. What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much an improved version of the old but of course the ecosystem needs further fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence. I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and doesn't really know where to go….. So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make it clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have a knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members. But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I personally would include something in the installation sets that point to the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages. Ideas? I can't think of anything less confusing than a prominent link on our home page saying I need help with my OpenOffice. The befuddled users who end up in other places might in some cases be crazy like a fox. They know the tricks to get one-on-one attention. They are the ones who know how to press *0 on the phone to get a real human. They know the secret support number for Amazon customer service, etc. That said, it might make sense to give new users some tips and do this repeatedly, since a since mention will not sink in. We have a few opportunities: 1) While downloading 2) While installing 3) Immediately after installing 4) A start up tips dialog that could display a new tip every day or week 5) A new user email autoresponder that users could sign up for to get a helpful tips for their first X weeks using AOO. 6) Similar information sent to announce list 7) Maybe make the FAQ's directly linked from the home page Obviously one of the hints could include a hint about support. Of course, the real question, Louis, is what do *you* want to do? -Rob Thanks Louis
Re: The Impossible Question
Just an idea, which once helped me. Typically users dont think things will go wrong so they dont pay attention to whatever we write, but one apache project had a quite clever solution (if I remember right it was Axis, but dont depend on my memory), when the installation failed it did not just tell you failed, it came up with the link to FAQ, right when the user needed it, simple but very effective. jan. On 26 October 2012 23:06, Louis Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.org wrote: Hi Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading, installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse. They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them. What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much an improved version of the old but of course the ecosystem needs further fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence. I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and doesn't really know where to go….. So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make it clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have a knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members. But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I personally would include something in the installation sets that point to the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages. Ideas? Thanks Louis
Re: The Impossible Question
Hello, -Original Message- From: Louis Suárez-Potts [mailto:lui...@gmail.com] On Behalf Ideas? What do you mean? Better design or more/better content? If you feel content, maybe even local resources would be useful. For example, I am since over 8 years moderator in the largest German speaking forum (for OOo / AOO / LO): http://de.openoffice.info (Notice: my nickname in this forum is Stephan) Greetings, Jörg
Re: The Impossible Question
On 12-10-26, at 17:33 , Jörg Schmidt joe...@j-m-schmidt.de wrote: Hello, -Original Message- From: Louis Suárez-Potts [mailto:lui...@gmail.com] On Behalf Ideas? What do you mean? Better design or more/better content? If you feel content, maybe even local resources would be useful. For example, I am since over 8 years moderator in the largest German speaking forum (for OOo / AOO / LO): http://de.openoffice.info (Notice: my nickname in this forum is Stephan) hI stephan! I don't mean anything specific. I don't think there is a simple solution—hence my subject line. I do think that there are multiple imperfect solutions, kind of like language if not math or code. But I think that it's worth appreciating that there is a problem for some (not all!) users and that having an approach that reads the user, however singular, as important, is good for us. See, I also see it as part of a campaign to differentiate, to characterize AOO as that set of tools that is best for all users, regardless of background, language, ability. best louis Greetings, Jörg
Re: The Impossible Question
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.comwrote: On 12-10-26, at 17:25 , Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Of course, the real question, Louis, is what do *you* want to do? Be cynical, or I mean, more cynical. Seriously, I have the same objections and observations as you do but I've also spent 11 years dealing with people who don't. No one thing will work. That's why I suggest multiple redundancies, and to place the instances alerting users of opportunities in key areas—the download, for instance (where we also used to locate contribution options), but also the Help, About, etc. But what's usually best is to follow what others have done, and to figure that the path has been torched, it's the one that will be followed, so let's use it. Louis-- I see Support on the home page as it's own major link; Support as a tab available from all pages; and Support (probably not best placed) on the download page in Documentation. We could certainly move this to Additional Information or its own category placement. If you feel something additional might help, it would be best to state some specific navigation areas or As I don't use MSFT Office and the last time I did found myself deep in the sea of thick frustration, I'm the last person to ask about this. louis -- MzK Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat. -- Robert Heinlein
Re: The Impossible Question
Am 10/26/2012 11:25 PM, schrieb jan iversen: Just an idea, which once helped me. Typically users dont think things will go wrong so they dont pay attention to whatever we write, but one apache project had a quite clever solution And when they remember that there was a banner talking about How to get help in case of problems, hm, how to get this information back; as the user has of course not wrote it up. (if I remember right it was Axis, but dont depend on my memory), when the installation failed it did not just tell you failed, it came up with the link to FAQ, right when the user needed it, simple but very effective. That is good with problems while installing. However, when the install was fine but AOO is crashing every 5 seconds after every start is different. Even a link to the support webpage in the Help menu is not really helping the user. OK, maybe an extrem case. ;-) Marcus On 26 October 2012 23:06, Louis Suárez-Pottslo...@apache.org wrote: Hi Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading, installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse. They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them. What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much an improved version of the old but of course the ecosystem needs further fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence. I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and doesn't really know where to go….. So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make it clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have a knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members. But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I personally would include something in the installation sets that point to the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages. Ideas? Thanks Louis
Re: The Impossible Question
On 12-10-26, at 17:38 , Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.comwrote: On 12-10-26, at 17:25 , Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Of course, the real question, Louis, is what do *you* want to do? Be cynical, or I mean, more cynical. Seriously, I have the same objections and observations as you do but I've also spent 11 years dealing with people who don't. No one thing will work. That's why I suggest multiple redundancies, and to place the instances alerting users of opportunities in key areas—the download, for instance (where we also used to locate contribution options), but also the Help, About, etc. But what's usually best is to follow what others have done, and to figure that the path has been torched, it's the one that will be followed, so let's use it. Louis-- I see Support on the home page as it's own major link; Support as a tab available from all pages; and Support (probably not best placed) on the download page in Documentation. We could certainly move this to Additional Information or its own category placement. If you feel something additional might help, it would be best to state some specific navigation areas or I see it too; and that was implicit in my initial point. My brief is that nothing will in and of itself work perfectly but that a multiple of approaches will probably work better than a single one, at least for users. You ought to know this: we went through this very discussion more than once with OpenOffice, and a resolution of it was the homepage we ended up with. Kay, I'm not criticizing or deprecating the effort or the page we have now. Is that clear? I am rather alerting us to the fax that it's not perfect—but then nothing is. This is a persistent issue. Some solutions will work better than others but none is perfect. But, that does not mean we ought not to experiment with options. Louis As I don't use MSFT Office and the last time I did found myself deep in the sea of thick frustration, I'm the last person to ask about this. louis -- MzK Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat. -- Robert Heinlein
Re: The Impossible Question
Am 10/26/2012 11:38 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Louis Suárez-Pottslui...@gmail.comwrote: On 12-10-26, at 17:25 , Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: Of course, the real question, Louis, is what do *you* want to do? Be cynical, or I mean, more cynical. Seriously, I have the same objections and observations as you do but I've also spent 11 years dealing with people who don't. No one thing will work. That's why I suggest multiple redundancies, and to place the instances alerting users of opportunities in key areas—the download, for instance (where we also used to locate contribution options), but also the Help, About, etc. But what's usually best is to follow what others have done, and to figure that the path has been torched, it's the one that will be followed, so let's use it. Louis-- I see Support on the home page as it's own major link; Support as a tab available from all pages; and Support (probably not best placed) on the download page in Documentation. We could certainly move this to Additional Information or its own category placement. Hm, or an own colored button below a specific button, so not to put it at the bottom of the webpage. Then link it to http://www.openoffice.org/support;. Marcus If you feel something additional might help, it would be best to state some specific navigation areas or As I don't use MSFT Office and the last time I did found myself deep in the sea of thick frustration, I'm the last person to ask about this. louis
Re: The Impossible Question
On Oct 26, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Hi Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading, installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse. They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them. What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much an improved version of the old but of course the ecosystem needs further fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence. I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and doesn't really know where to go….. So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make it clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have a knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members. But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I personally would include something in the installation sets that point to the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages. Ideas? We could emulate a version of what the ASF does to highlight the many projects. Take a look at www.apache.org - you will see a feature project section. Perhaps on www.openoffice.org we can add a Featured Support Question / Language / News. This would be backed by an xml file of FAQs, Languages and News which would randomly be selected every day and republished to the front page. Regards, Dave Thanks Louis
