Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On 9/25/12 4:39 PM, Ian Lynch wrote: > The Apache Way came up on the PMC list thread. Is the Apache Way > exclusively about certain types of merit and not about any other > factor or attribute? It seems from what mentors have written that > community is a big part of the Apache Way and merit in building the > community is important as well as the characteristics needed to > sustain a strong community. The acknowledged problem with merit is > that it is difficult to be sure how to measure it, it seems to be more > a consensus thing. If two community members have similar merit and > there is only one place on the PMC, what determines which one is > chosen? We can't determine merit to a high degree of measured > precision. It is a strawman argument to say someone will be included > on the PMC without merit, that has never been a consideration. If we > assume all members of the PMC have appropriate merit, other > considerations will come into play and it seems to me that that has no > conflict with the Apache Way. > I think that is clear to most people here and of course community building is an important part in an open source project. Not only at Apache and of course it is not really new. And I think we welcome anybody who will concentrate on this only and will help to grow our community. And we will welcome any kind of contribution in this area independent if it is a one time shot or a continuous and ongoing effort. And the really important part is how to recognize this contributions which is the challenge in any community. We learned at Apache that everything happened on the mailing list or didn't happened at all. Mmmh, very strange I think and from my perspective not always possible. But I believe that it is possible to wrap up any kind of action, contribution, activity that goes in community building or whatever on this mailing list that is the central place in our project according the Apache way. I expect that if we don't recognize this kind of contribution that people make us aware of it. We can't see anything, especially not when it is not reported or communicated here on the list by whomsoever. This is no failure as long as we take the appropriate actions afterwards. And I believe we don't have a limited count of seats (or places if you want to name it this way) in our PMC. If somebody merits the membership I hope we will recognize it over time. We are for sure not perfect yet and will never be but I am sure that we will learn and grow over time. Juergen
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: > The Apache Way came up on the PMC list thread. Is the Apache Way > exclusively about certain types of merit and not about any other > factor or attribute? It seems from what mentors have written that > community is a big part of the Apache Way and merit in building the > community is important as well as the characteristics needed to > sustain a strong community. The acknowledged problem with merit is > that it is difficult to be sure how to measure it, it seems to be more > a consensus thing. If two community members have similar merit and > there is only one place on the PMC, what determines which one is That is a problem with a representational system. Who do you pick in that case? My point is that this is not a real problem once we put aside the (IMHO) incorrect view that a PMC is allocated on a representational basis. If you have two community members with similar merit, then both should be on the PMC. No question about it. IMHO we should reject the notion that there are finite seats on the PMC and we need to allocate them on a representational basis. We can never have enough help, enough merit, enough volunteers. Or at least we're no where near the scale where we need to think about PMC size limits. My guess is we'd be encouraged to split into separate Apache projects before we would be encouraged to limit PMC membership based on size limitations. Finally, note that what Andrew is doing in this thread is *not* limiting the size of the PMC. It was seeding an initial list of PMC members, so that that initial membership can then evolve the PMC membership further. At least that is how I understood it. Start with those of undoubted merit. Then that group can deliberate and bring in anyone who was missed. And no doubt we did miss some, since the quiet contributor tends to be overlooked. But I'd fully expect that this initial PMC list, via Andrew's method, would deal with that before a roster is proposed for graduation. -Rob > chosen? We can't determine merit to a high degree of measured > precision. It is a strawman argument to say someone will be included > on the PMC without merit, that has never been a consideration. If we > assume all members of the PMC have appropriate merit, other > considerations will come into play and it seems to me that that has no > conflict with the Apache Way. > -- > Ian > > Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) > > www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 > > The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, > Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and > Wales.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
The Apache Way came up on the PMC list thread. Is the Apache Way exclusively about certain types of merit and not about any other factor or attribute? It seems from what mentors have written that community is a big part of the Apache Way and merit in building the community is important as well as the characteristics needed to sustain a strong community. The acknowledged problem with merit is that it is difficult to be sure how to measure it, it seems to be more a consensus thing. If two community members have similar merit and there is only one place on the PMC, what determines which one is chosen? We can't determine merit to a high degree of measured precision. It is a strawman argument to say someone will be included on the PMC without merit, that has never been a consideration. If we assume all members of the PMC have appropriate merit, other considerations will come into play and it seems to me that that has no conflict with the Apache Way. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
The feedback on this approach seems to be positive. I will start a new thread for proposed PMC lists and a second for discussion. I will leave the proposals thread open for the entire week, and collect up the results and summarize next Monday. Andrew On 9/15/2012 3:08 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: On 07/09/2012 Andrew Rist wrote: While on one hand I understand why so many of us want to be on the PMC, a large PMC is not necessarily in the best interest of the project. The PMC should not be making decisions about the direction of the project and on who gets to do what - the PMC should be mostly involved with voting in new committers and approving releases. The direction of the project should be determined on ooo-dev Since comments to the latest report, forwarded here by Rob, support the idea that we are approaching graduation, it is probably time to agree on at least our vision of the PMC. By now, everybody knows that the PMC: - Votes in new committers and PMC members. This indeed requires that it represents all key areas of the project, to be able to evaluate all contributions. - Has a private mailing list to be used for the aforementioned votes, for discussions involving trademarks and, ideally, nothing else. - Has binding votes on releases and decides the release strategy. - Satisfies the other generic guidelines stated in http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs.html (a draft, but the best source as suggested by our mentors) But the PMC must also serve, in a form we have to agree upon, as governing body for the project: it is true that the direction of the project must be determined on ooo-dev, and probably most of the times consensus will be enough, but it might happen that a few rare decisions need a vote on ooo-dev, and in that case everyone is entitled to vote but only the PMC votes are binding. If sharp contrasts emerge, the PMC will likely try to mediate, but still the privilege that its votes are binding should be supported by evidence that the PMC members have the trust of the OpenOffice community. The current PPMC, especially due to the bootstrapping phase that allowed a large number of "initial committers" to enter the project without demonstrating merit, can't be considered as having the trust of the community. My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no spreadsheet - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of the 10 people you think should be doing the work of the PMC. ... We can use this to produce the next pass at the proposed PMC roster, hopefully a PMC of around 20 members. This is a nice idea since it would guarantee that every PMC member is, directly or indirectly, trusted by the community, while still maintaining a manageable size for the PMC. Of course, if we choose this way, then most of the current PPMC members won't be in the PMC; so it's important to guarantee that all volunteers can have a say in determining the future of the project; for example, the PMC would be committed to seeking consensus on ooo-dev rather than enforcing choices by using its binding votes. And the "rotation" idea from Rob makes sense too, if it can be implemented easily and with little impact on the project's governance continuity. Regards, Andrea.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Andrew Rist wrote: > I'm not particularly satisfied with current PMC selection process. I think > the first pass was actually fairly reasonable, and fairly quickly resulted > in a list that contains the people who are serious about the project. > Unfortunately, we haven't been able to find consensus on the next step. I'd Just a quick observation. We're hitting some classic bike shedding. Selecting a PMC is something that everyone feels competent to comment on and have an opinion about. Therefore, everyone does have an opinion and posts their opinion. I'm as guilty as the next person. This leads to a form of analysis paralysis and stagnation. We have half a dozen or more variations on selection methods that probably will yield approximately the same thing in the end. Maybe fine distinctions, but not critical ones. One way to escape this is for someone (anyone) to make a concrete proposal and push it forward. In other words, seek lazy consensus and carry it out. That will reveal if there are any substantive objections to a proposal versus endless discussions on variations and alternatives that have no greater degree of support. In any case, I'd have no objections to your proposed method. But I do fear it will languish unless pushed forward with more vigor. And I'd urge others to support whatever reasonable proposal comes along rather than continuing to bike shed on alternatives that are slightly different, but probably no better. Weigh the benefits of progressing on this against the microscopic incremental gains that we'll see by continuing discussion on voting/selection methods. Regards, -Rob > like to propose a different way to look at this which may lead us to a > better way to move forward. I think we can avoid the need to organize the > next step around '-1' (i.e. speaking out against potential PMC members - > discussions around who to leave off), and instead create an affirmative > process where we identify who we want on. > > What is a good Project Management Committee? > Here's my start (please expand on this): > > * Representative of the diversity of tasks in the community >(developers, web/wiki/forum, translators, testers, UX, release, >marketing, press, ecosystem, infrastructure) > * Representative of the geographical diversity in the community > * Made up of the most involved members of the community > * Able and Competent to perform required ASF functions (overseeing >releases and developing the community) > * Represents the community in the best possible light > > While on one hand I understand why so many of us want to be on the PMC, a > large PMC is not necessarily in the best interest of the project. The PMC > should not be making decisions about the direction of the project and on who > gets to do what - the PMC should be mostly involved with voting in new > committers and approving releases. The direction of the project should be > determined on ooo-dev, and by the people who are active in the parts of the > community listed above. > > > My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: > I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no > spreadsheet - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of the > 10 people you think should be doing the work of the PMC. (the list of names > we have produced so far is a great place to start for your list, but it is > not exclusive) Anyone can play! PPMC members, committers, the community. > Next we use this to produce a list of the group getting the most votes. > (using PPMC and committer lists as more binding) We can use this to > produce the next pass at the proposed PMC roster, hopefully a PMC of around > 20 members. > > Andrew > > > > > > > >
[OFF-LIST] RE: What is a good Project Management Committee?
Thanks for that. And good point. - Dennis FYI, there is no knowledge on the PPMC how a list of (some) OpenOffice users was obtained or how many OpenOffice users were e-mailed. On the other hand, there were two initial committers associated with an organization and site that was making misleading claims and using the OpenOffice.org trademark in a confusing manner. Those two initial committers were encouraged to subscribe to ooo-private and to be on the PPMC to resolve that. They did appear, though communication was not clear-cut. There was also a reaction from the trademark@ a.o group directly to the organization. I don't know that there has been a successful resolution. Now that Apache OpenOffice is producing releases, it is probably irrelevant other than with respect to trademark issues. The organization seems to have made no progress although the site continues to request donations. The two individuals are still on the PPMC. That has not interfered with PPMC activities in any way. -Original Message- From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@apache.org] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 13:55 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is a good Project Management Committee? Rob Weir wrote: > For example, we had some initial committers who sent out bulk emails > to a list of OpenOffice users. ... They issued > press releases claiming that OpenOffice would fail, that the only way > to get it to succeed was to send them money. They did this using a > name and website and claims that were abusive to the OpenOffice > trademarks that were transferred to Apache. While this is not what I had in mind when I raised the "trust"/"commitment" concern, it is a valid point. These cases can probably be discussed on an individual basis and only after the individuals have confirmed they want to serve in the PMC, to avoid useless discussions. Regards, Andrea.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
Rob Weir wrote: For example, we had some initial committers who sent out bulk emails to a list of OpenOffice users. ... They issued press releases claiming that OpenOffice would fail, that the only way to get it to succeed was to send them money. They did this using a name and website and claims that were abusive to the OpenOffice trademarks that were transferred to Apache. While this is not what I had in mind when I raised the "trust"/"commitment" concern, it is a valid point. These cases can probably be discussed on an individual basis and only after the individuals have confirmed they want to serve in the PMC, to avoid useless discussions. Regards, Andrea.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: I think commitment is important. ... commitment through visible conduct is part of the determination of merit. I do not equate that with trustworthiness. ... Trustworthiness is more difficult to demonstrate. ... Let us not confuse commitment and trustworthiness. Thanks Dennis for this important clarification; indeed, my concern was more related to commitment than to trustworthiness. My concern is that, when it comes to voting, it should not happen that an active contributor has no binding vote while someone who never did anything for the project but happens to be a PMC member has a binding vote. This would be a credibility issue, and this is what my improperly worded sentence about the PPMC not "having the trust of the community" due to initial committers referred to: I'm not implying at all that the PPMC is untrustworthy, and surely I do trust all active PPMC members. [ Andrea Pescetti] The current PPMC, especially due to the bootstrapping phase that allowed a large number of "initial committers" to enter the project without demonstrating merit... Of the initial committers 55 serve on the current PPMC (and all are committers) 15 are committers only 11 did not provide iCLAs and come on board Thanks for the numbers too. Indeed, these numbers put my concern in the right perspective: almost all the initial committers who never did anything for the project are in the second or third group, so they are not in the PPMC now. Which means that I probably overestimated the problem, and that the PPMC members who hold that qualification only because they put their name on a wiki page, did the required paperwork and subscribed the mailing lists are just a handful of cases, likely not even considering to join the PMC when the project graduates. Regards, Andrea.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > I think commitment is important. After all, it is visible commitment and > reliable conduct that leads to invitation of a contributor to become an ASF > committer. Demonstrated commitment through visible conduct is part of the > determination of merit. > > I do not equate that with trustworthiness. In particular, in the narrow case > of initial committers, I know of no case where an initial committer, in use > of the privileges of a committer or in acting as a member of the PPMC, has > demonstrated untrustworthiness. > For example, we had some initial committers who sent out bulk emails to a list of OpenOffice users. (Where did they get that list? Who knows? But I can't think of any legitimate source.). They issued press releases claiming that OpenOffice would fail, that the only way to get it to succeed was to send them money. They did this using a name and website and claims that were abusive to the OpenOffice trademarks that were transferred to Apache. They were extremely poor in their communications and reluctant to respect trademarks. This required a huge amount of attention by ASF officers, Mentors and PPMC members in order to clean up. By your extremely narrow definition, yes, this was not a lack of trust exhibited by "use of the privileges of a committer or in acting as a member of the PPMC". But by any reasonable definition this did not equate to trustworthiness. We should be looking at the orientation of the individual to the project, regardless of what means they are using. If they are waging war against the project on their own website, but not using SVN karma in the process, then their actions are still a factor we can and should consider when establishing trustworthiness. Note: this is symmetrical -- we also allow merit for actions outside of strict "use of the privileges of a committer". That should be obvious, since someone must earn merit somewhere initially, and this is done initially without the privileges of Committers or PMC members. -Rob > Trustworthiness is more difficult to demonstrate. That depends on how > someone conducts themselves when something goes wrong or when a mistake is > made. It might also depend on the care that is demonstrated for others and > for the ultimate users of our work. > > Let us not confuse commitment and trustworthiness. > > - Dennis > > LONGER REMARKS > > It is the case that initial committers needed to satisfy a low bar with > regard to commitment. They needed to put their names on the proposal to > create the podling before the voting began, they needed to submit an iCLA, > and they needed to show up on the PPMC at least by subscribing to ooo-private > and maintaining that subscription. They are also expected to subscribe to > ooo-dev, as are all committers. > > That's how the podling was bootstrapped. Every podling is bootstrapped > somehow. > > Determination whether commitment is sustained or increased is evidently not a > factor in how the ASF meritocracy operates. There is no required level of > subsequent visible commitment. For invited committers, this statement is in > every invitation letter: > > " Being a committer does not require you to participate any more > than you already do. It does tend to make one even more committed. > You will probably find that you spend more time here." > > There is nowhere a statement on their being some required level of sustained > activity in order to retain the privileges of a committer. There has not > been any such condition placed on membership in the PPMC either. > > If there is some sort of re-election (or reduction) of PPMC, there is the > thorny question of whose votes are binding, yes? There seems to be no > avoidance of bootstrapping, even if the PPMC were to invite the mentors, or > the IPMC to propose the PMC. That's still bootstrapping. That does not > appear to be self-governance. (Ultimately, the ASF Board will approve the > PMC and PMC Chair, however it is arrived at. This ratification will also be > required for subsequent changes in the PMC and the PMC Chair.) > > So, apart from all of the focus on skills and technical contribution, there > remains this singular challenge: how does this project become demonstrably > self-governing and recognized as fostering community? I suggest that > consensus-building in arrival at the proposed initial PMC and its Chair will > be a central factor. > > > PS: I also find it quite remarkable when individuals that have been > successfully brought in by invitation of the PPMC find the PPMC that did that > to be untrustworthy. Distrust strikes me as an unlikely foundation for a > self-gove
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
2012/9/16 Dennis E. Hamilton > > > PS: I also find it quite remarkable when individuals that have been > successfully brought in by invitation of the PPMC find the PPMC that did > that to be untrustworthy. Distrust strikes me as an unlikely foundation > for a self-governing community. > I've never said that the ACTIVE PPMC is untrustworthy, that is of course a non sense! I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about people who put their names on a wiki page, obtained a PPMC "tag" and then stopped any activity. There are several initial committers that show every day their commitment to the project, but there are also some that do not. For me that "inactive" people is not part of the "real" PPMC and I think they should not be part of the final PMC. Of course I trust the active PPMC members: that's the reason why I'm still here... my problem is with the others. Sorry if I was not clear. Regards Ricardo
RE: What is a good Project Management Committee?
I think commitment is important. After all, it is visible commitment and reliable conduct that leads to invitation of a contributor to become an ASF committer. Demonstrated commitment through visible conduct is part of the determination of merit. I do not equate that with trustworthiness. In particular, in the narrow case of initial committers, I know of no case where an initial committer, in use of the privileges of a committer or in acting as a member of the PPMC, has demonstrated untrustworthiness. Trustworthiness is more difficult to demonstrate. That depends on how someone conducts themselves when something goes wrong or when a mistake is made. It might also depend on the care that is demonstrated for others and for the ultimate users of our work. Let us not confuse commitment and trustworthiness. - Dennis LONGER REMARKS It is the case that initial committers needed to satisfy a low bar with regard to commitment. They needed to put their names on the proposal to create the podling before the voting began, they needed to submit an iCLA, and they needed to show up on the PPMC at least by subscribing to ooo-private and maintaining that subscription. They are also expected to subscribe to ooo-dev, as are all committers. That's how the podling was bootstrapped. Every podling is bootstrapped somehow. Determination whether commitment is sustained or increased is evidently not a factor in how the ASF meritocracy operates. There is no required level of subsequent visible commitment. For invited committers, this statement is in every invitation letter: " Being a committer does not require you to participate any more than you already do. It does tend to make one even more committed. You will probably find that you spend more time here." There is nowhere a statement on their being some required level of sustained activity in order to retain the privileges of a committer. There has not been any such condition placed on membership in the PPMC either. If there is some sort of re-election (or reduction) of PPMC, there is the thorny question of whose votes are binding, yes? There seems to be no avoidance of bootstrapping, even if the PPMC were to invite the mentors, or the IPMC to propose the PMC. That's still bootstrapping. That does not appear to be self-governance. (Ultimately, the ASF Board will approve the PMC and PMC Chair, however it is arrived at. This ratification will also be required for subsequent changes in the PMC and the PMC Chair.) So, apart from all of the focus on skills and technical contribution, there remains this singular challenge: how does this project become demonstrably self-governing and recognized as fostering community? I suggest that consensus-building in arrival at the proposed initial PMC and its Chair will be a central factor. PS: I also find it quite remarkable when individuals that have been successfully brought in by invitation of the PPMC find the PPMC that did that to be untrustworthy. Distrust strikes me as an unlikely foundation for a self-governing community. -Original Message- From: RGB ES [mailto:rgb.m...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 00:32 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; orc...@apache.org Subject: Re: What is a good Project Management Committee? 2012/9/16 Dennis E. Hamilton > I have no position on how the PMC is established. I have no skin in the > game. I do expect that the manner of selection might need to be a > demonstration that this project is self-governing and that it fosters > community. > > I have no problem with whatever size PMC is chosen. > > I am, nevertheless, uncomfortable with the suggestion that the current > PPMC "can't be considered as having the trust of the community." I see no > evidence of that. > Trust is also related with commitment: for example, can you trust a politician that arrives to senator and then have a near 100 % of absences? (unfortunately, that's a quite common situation on many countries...) If someone wants to be on the Project *Management* Committee that someone must show a real commitment with the project. If an initial committer did nothing since editing that wiki page at the beginning of time, or if that initial committer shows only now (and sporadically) when we are discussing who will continue on the board, then that person do not deserve to be a PMC member because that person will never obtain the needed trust. At least not from me. [ ... ]
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On 09/16/2012 12:32 AM, RGB ES wrote: 2012/9/16 Dennis E. Hamilton I have no position on how the PMC is established. I have no skin in the game. I do expect that the manner of selection might need to be a demonstration that this project is self-governing and that it fosters community. I have no problem with whatever size PMC is chosen. I am, nevertheless, uncomfortable with the suggestion that the current PPMC "can't be considered as having the trust of the community." I see no evidence of that. Trust is also related with commitment: for example, can you trust a politician that arrives to senator and then have a near 100 % of absences? (unfortunately, that's a quite common situation on many countries...) If someone wants to be on the Project *Management* Committee that someone must show a real commitment with the project. If an initial committer did nothing since editing that wiki page at the beginning of time, or if that initial committer shows only now (and sporadically) when we are discussing who will continue on the board, then that person do not deserve to be a PMC member because that person will never obtain the needed trust. At least not from me. In this vein, I rather like this statement: "Let they that do the work make the decisions." from this document on the incubator wiki: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CodeOfConduct Of course everyone can have problems with life and the possibility that that missing commitment was because of real problems is always present... but not being part of the board now do not prevent of being part of the board tomorrow: that person just need to start to participate and show commitment. The point is: we are discussing how to build a PMC "now", with facts, not with hypothesis. Just my 2¢ Ricardo In particular, I don't see any particular problem that the self-selected initial committers have created. The conversation about the size of the PMC emerged from the PPMC itself. Here's a little history: Of the initial committers 55 serve on the current PPMC (and all are committers) 15 are committers only 11 did not provide iCLAs and come on board That PPMC has managed to support creation of the following, as of my last status report to this list: 36 additional committers were successfully invited. 18 of those are also serving on the current PPMC. There might have been more additional committers on the PPMC, but the PPMC has stopped inviting new committers to also be on the PPMC. I don't recall any individual originally invited to be a committer to have later been invited to become a PPMC member. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@apache.org] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 15:08 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is a good Project Management Committee? On 07/09/2012 Andrew Rist wrote: [ ... ] The current PPMC, especially due to the bootstrapping phase that allowed a large number of "initial committers" to enter the project without demonstrating merit, can't be considered as having the trust of the community. My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no spreadsheet - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of the 10 people you think should be doing the work of the PMC. ... We can use this to produce the next pass at the proposed PMC roster, hopefully a PMC of around 20 members. This is a nice idea since it would guarantee that every PMC member is, directly or indirectly, trusted by the community, while still maintaining a manageable size for the PMC. Of course, if we choose this way, then most of the current PPMC members won't be in the PMC; so it's important to guarantee that all volunteers can have a say in determining the future of the project; for example, the PMC would be committed to seeking consensus on ooo-dev rather than enforcing choices by using its binding votes. And the "rotation" idea from Rob makes sense too, if it can be implemented easily and with little impact on the project's governance continuity. Regards, Andrea. -- MzK "We never sit anything out. We are cups, constantly and quietly being filled. The trick is, knowing how to tip ourselves over and let the beautiful stuff out." -- Ray Bradbury, "Zen in the Art of Writing"
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
2012/9/16 Dennis E. Hamilton > I have no position on how the PMC is established. I have no skin in the > game. I do expect that the manner of selection might need to be a > demonstration that this project is self-governing and that it fosters > community. > > I have no problem with whatever size PMC is chosen. > > I am, nevertheless, uncomfortable with the suggestion that the current > PPMC "can't be considered as having the trust of the community." I see no > evidence of that. > Trust is also related with commitment: for example, can you trust a politician that arrives to senator and then have a near 100 % of absences? (unfortunately, that's a quite common situation on many countries...) If someone wants to be on the Project *Management* Committee that someone must show a real commitment with the project. If an initial committer did nothing since editing that wiki page at the beginning of time, or if that initial committer shows only now (and sporadically) when we are discussing who will continue on the board, then that person do not deserve to be a PMC member because that person will never obtain the needed trust. At least not from me. Of course everyone can have problems with life and the possibility that that missing commitment was because of real problems is always present... but not being part of the board now do not prevent of being part of the board tomorrow: that person just need to start to participate and show commitment. The point is: we are discussing how to build a PMC "now", with facts, not with hypothesis. Just my 2¢ Ricardo > > In particular, I don't see any particular problem that the self-selected > initial committers have created. The conversation about the size of the > PMC emerged from the PPMC itself. > > Here's a little history: > > Of the initial committers > > 55 serve on the current PPMC (and all are committers) > 15 are committers only > 11 did not provide iCLAs and come on board > > That PPMC has managed to support creation of the following, as of my last > status report to this list: > > 36 additional committers were successfully invited. > > 18 of those are also serving on the current PPMC. > > There might have been more additional committers on the PPMC, but the PPMC > has stopped inviting new committers to also be on the PPMC. I don't recall > any individual originally invited to be a committer to have later been > invited to become a PPMC member. > > - Dennis > > -Original Message- > From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@apache.org] > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 15:08 > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: What is a good Project Management Committee? > > On 07/09/2012 Andrew Rist wrote: > [ ... ] > > The current PPMC, especially due to the bootstrapping phase that allowed > a large number of "initial committers" to enter the project without > demonstrating merit, can't be considered as having the trust of the > community. > > > My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: > > I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no > > spreadsheet - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of > > the 10 people you think should be doing the work of the PMC. ... > > We can use this to produce the next pass at the proposed PMC > > roster, hopefully a PMC of around 20 members. > > This is a nice idea since it would guarantee that every PMC member is, > directly or indirectly, trusted by the community, while still > maintaining a manageable size for the PMC. > > Of course, if we choose this way, then most of the current PPMC members > won't be in the PMC; so it's important to guarantee that all volunteers > can have a say in determining the future of the project; for example, > the PMC would be committed to seeking consensus on ooo-dev rather than > enforcing choices by using its binding votes. And the "rotation" idea > from Rob makes sense too, if it can be implemented easily and with > little impact on the project's governance continuity. > > Regards, >Andrea. > >
RE: What is a good Project Management Committee?
Rob makes two points on my comments that I want to clarify: 1. Concerning the handling of security vulnerability reports, that is not the same as "the community" and it has not stopped the growing of the PPMC. It is the case that the size of the PPMC and the degree of inexperience were concerns to the ASF security team. There was no evidence of untrustworthiness. The creation of a small ooo-security group was prudent and security@ i.a.o insisted on that. I also don't expect there to be any security@ objections to whatever PMC is formed. I would expect an explosion of ooo-security participation to raise eyebrows at any time. 2. I did not claim that the PPMC could not invite already-established committers to come aboard the PPMC. As far as I know, it has simply not done so. It is the case, as Rob points out, that there is also nothing to prevent a committer invitation also including a PPMC invitation. For the reasons Rob mentions, that hasn't been done lately. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 17:59 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is a good Project Management Committee? On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: [ ... ] > I am, nevertheless, uncomfortable with the suggestion that the current PPMC > "can't be considered as having the trust of the community." I see no > evidence of that. > You might review the discussions related to the handling of security vulnerability reports. The self-selected PPMC was considered not sufficiently trustworthy to handle these. [ ... ] > > There might have been more additional committers on the PPMC, but the PPMC > has stopped inviting new committers to also be on the PPMC. I don't recall > any individual originally invited to be a committer to have later been > invited to become a PPMC member.> Your statement could easily be misunderstood. The PPMC did not "stop inviting" new PPMC members. What happened is that we realized the bar was too high to make new contributors both PPMC and Committer at once, and that it would be faster/easier to bring new contributors in initially as Committers, e.g., for translators who need access to Pootle. There is nothing that prevents a committer from also becoming a PPMC member. [ ... ]
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > I have no position on how the PMC is established. I have no skin in the > game. I do expect that the manner of selection might need to be a > demonstration that this project is self-governing and that it fosters > community. > > I have no problem with whatever size PMC is chosen. > > I am, nevertheless, uncomfortable with the suggestion that the current PPMC > "can't be considered as having the trust of the community." I see no > evidence of that. > You might review the discussions related to the handling of security vulnerability reports. The self-selected PPMC was considered not sufficiently trustworthy to handle these. > In particular, I don't see any particular problem that the self-selected > initial committers have created. The conversation about the size of the PMC > emerged from the PPMC itself. > > Here's a little history: > > Of the initial committers > > 55 serve on the current PPMC (and all are committers) > 15 are committers only > 11 did not provide iCLAs and come on board > > That PPMC has managed to support creation of the following, as of my last > status report to this list: > > 36 additional committers were successfully invited. > > 18 of those are also serving on the current PPMC. > > There might have been more additional committers on the PPMC, but the PPMC > has stopped inviting new committers to also be on the PPMC. I don't recall > any individual originally invited to be a committer to have later been > invited to become a PPMC member. > Your statement could easily be misunderstood. The PPMC did not "stop inviting" new PPMC members. What happened is that we realized the bar was too high to make new contributors both PPMC and Committer at once, and that it would be faster/easier to bring new contributors in initially as Committers, e.g., for translators who need access to Pootle. There is nothing that prevents a committer from also becoming a PPMC member. In any case, I'm reminded of the old Kipling line: - Still the world is wondrous large,—seven seas from marge to marge— And it holds a vast of various kinds of man; And the wildest dreams of Kew are the facts of Khatmandhu And the crimes of Clapham chaste in Martaban. Here's my wisdom for your use, as I learned it when the moose And the reindeer roamed where Paris roars to-night:— "There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays, "And—every—single—one—of—them—is—right!" - There are many different ways of constructing a useful, functional, fair, trustworthy, etc., PMC. I'm sure any of us can think of a few good ones, from any of the numerous voting schemes, to using metrics, to throwing our hands up and blessing the existing PPMC membership. Governance and representation has been debated for over 2000 years. We're not going to innovate here. JFDI, IMHO. This isn't rocket science. And if done right it is not really all that important. Success should depend on the culture and the process more than trying to determine with precision the initial composition of the PMC. A process that is adaptive, self-correcting, that distributes power broadly, etc., will be tolerant to errors and will behave robustly under a range of initial conditions. But get the process/culture wrong and we'll never be precise enough in PMC composition to work with all possible future events. In other words, let's focus on a PMC that learns and has mechanisms for self-correction than having pretenses that we're going to pick a perfect PMC. -Rob > - Dennis > > -Original Message- > From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@apache.org] > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 15:08 > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: What is a good Project Management Committee? > > On 07/09/2012 Andrew Rist wrote: > [ ... ] > > The current PPMC, especially due to the bootstrapping phase that allowed > a large number of "initial committers" to enter the project without > demonstrating merit, can't be considered as having the trust of the > community. > >> My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: >> I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no >> spreadsheet - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of >> the 10 people you think should be doing the work of the PMC. ... >> We can use this to produce the next pass at the proposed PMC >> roster, hopefully a PMC of around 20 members. > > This is a nice idea since it would guarantee that every PMC member is, > directly or indirectly, trusted by the community, while still > maintaining a manageable size for the PMC. > &
RE: What is a good Project Management Committee?
I have no position on how the PMC is established. I have no skin in the game. I do expect that the manner of selection might need to be a demonstration that this project is self-governing and that it fosters community. I have no problem with whatever size PMC is chosen. I am, nevertheless, uncomfortable with the suggestion that the current PPMC "can't be considered as having the trust of the community." I see no evidence of that. In particular, I don't see any particular problem that the self-selected initial committers have created. The conversation about the size of the PMC emerged from the PPMC itself. Here's a little history: Of the initial committers 55 serve on the current PPMC (and all are committers) 15 are committers only 11 did not provide iCLAs and come on board That PPMC has managed to support creation of the following, as of my last status report to this list: 36 additional committers were successfully invited. 18 of those are also serving on the current PPMC. There might have been more additional committers on the PPMC, but the PPMC has stopped inviting new committers to also be on the PPMC. I don't recall any individual originally invited to be a committer to have later been invited to become a PPMC member. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@apache.org] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 15:08 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is a good Project Management Committee? On 07/09/2012 Andrew Rist wrote: [ ... ] The current PPMC, especially due to the bootstrapping phase that allowed a large number of "initial committers" to enter the project without demonstrating merit, can't be considered as having the trust of the community. > My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: > I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no > spreadsheet - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of > the 10 people you think should be doing the work of the PMC. ... > We can use this to produce the next pass at the proposed PMC > roster, hopefully a PMC of around 20 members. This is a nice idea since it would guarantee that every PMC member is, directly or indirectly, trusted by the community, while still maintaining a manageable size for the PMC. Of course, if we choose this way, then most of the current PPMC members won't be in the PMC; so it's important to guarantee that all volunteers can have a say in determining the future of the project; for example, the PMC would be committed to seeking consensus on ooo-dev rather than enforcing choices by using its binding votes. And the "rotation" idea from Rob makes sense too, if it can be implemented easily and with little impact on the project's governance continuity. Regards, Andrea.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On 07/09/2012 Andrew Rist wrote: While on one hand I understand why so many of us want to be on the PMC, a large PMC is not necessarily in the best interest of the project. The PMC should not be making decisions about the direction of the project and on who gets to do what - the PMC should be mostly involved with voting in new committers and approving releases. The direction of the project should be determined on ooo-dev Since comments to the latest report, forwarded here by Rob, support the idea that we are approaching graduation, it is probably time to agree on at least our vision of the PMC. By now, everybody knows that the PMC: - Votes in new committers and PMC members. This indeed requires that it represents all key areas of the project, to be able to evaluate all contributions. - Has a private mailing list to be used for the aforementioned votes, for discussions involving trademarks and, ideally, nothing else. - Has binding votes on releases and decides the release strategy. - Satisfies the other generic guidelines stated in http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs.html (a draft, but the best source as suggested by our mentors) But the PMC must also serve, in a form we have to agree upon, as governing body for the project: it is true that the direction of the project must be determined on ooo-dev, and probably most of the times consensus will be enough, but it might happen that a few rare decisions need a vote on ooo-dev, and in that case everyone is entitled to vote but only the PMC votes are binding. If sharp contrasts emerge, the PMC will likely try to mediate, but still the privilege that its votes are binding should be supported by evidence that the PMC members have the trust of the OpenOffice community. The current PPMC, especially due to the bootstrapping phase that allowed a large number of "initial committers" to enter the project without demonstrating merit, can't be considered as having the trust of the community. My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no spreadsheet - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of the 10 people you think should be doing the work of the PMC. ... We can use this to produce the next pass at the proposed PMC roster, hopefully a PMC of around 20 members. This is a nice idea since it would guarantee that every PMC member is, directly or indirectly, trusted by the community, while still maintaining a manageable size for the PMC. Of course, if we choose this way, then most of the current PPMC members won't be in the PMC; so it's important to guarantee that all volunteers can have a say in determining the future of the project; for example, the PMC would be committed to seeking consensus on ooo-dev rather than enforcing choices by using its binding votes. And the "rotation" idea from Rob makes sense too, if it can be implemented easily and with little impact on the project's governance continuity. Regards, Andrea.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On 09/07/2012 04:22 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: On Sep 7, 2012, at 11:41 AM, Andrew Rist wrote: I'm not particularly satisfied with current PMC selection process. I think the first pass was actually fairly reasonable, and fairly quickly resulted in a list that contains the people who are serious about the project. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to find consensus on the next step. I'd like to propose a different way to look at this which may lead us to a better way to move forward. I think we can avoid the need to organize the next step around '-1' (i.e. speaking out against potential PMC members - discussions around who to leave off), and instead create an affirmative process where we identify who we want on. What is a good Project Management Committee? Here's my start (please expand on this): * Representative of the diversity of tasks in the community (developers, web/wiki/forum, translators, testers, UX, release, marketing, press, ecosystem, infrastructure) * Representative of the geographical diversity in the community * Made up of the most involved members of the community * Able and Competent to perform required ASF functions (overseeing releases and developing the community) * Represents the community in the best possible light While on one hand I understand why so many of us want to be on the PMC, a large PMC is not necessarily in the best interest of the project. The PMC should not be making decisions about the direction of the project and on who gets to do what - the PMC should be mostly involved with voting in new committers and approving releases. The direction of the project should be determined on ooo-dev, and by the people who are active in the parts of the community listed above. My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no spreadsheet - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of the 10 people you think should be doing the work of the PMC. (the list of names we have produced so far is a great place to start for your list, but it is not exclusive) Anyone can play! PPMC members, committers, the community. Next we use this to produce a list of the group getting the most votes. (using PPMC and committer lists as more binding) We can use this to produce the next pass at the proposed PMC roster, hopefully a PMC of around 20 members. If we are doing this then the list should start with the full current list of committers all as candidates. Contributors lists are tabulated separately and compared. (Apache Flex did something similar for a logo contest.) If a non-committer is selected that would be unusual, but not a problem. (Maybe an mail archive access issue, but that is Infra and should not be a concern.) Make the list 10. If someone can't come up with 10 then let's allow repeat names. No voting for yourself. No reason not to have a public vote. We can repeat it on an annual basis. If a PMC has trouble passing releases then we discuss on the dev list. Regards, Dave Andrew I think Andrew's idea has a lot of merit, and we should try this. Dave's advice about using the committer list for selection seems the most reasonable way to start. With the list of PMC attributes here, I think this will be a great way to get input from everyone. -- MzK "We never sit anything out. We are cups, constantly and quietly being filled. The trick is, knowing how to tip ourselves over and let the beautiful stuff out." -- Ray Bradbury, "Zen in the Art of Writing"
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On Sep 7, 2012, at 7:14 PM, Kazunari Hirano wrote: > Hi Regina and all, > > We are making Apache OpenOffice, multilingual and multiplatform office suite. > We would like to build a vibrant and healthy community for Apache OpenOffice. > Our community will be diverse in its member's language, culture, > skill, background etc. > > PMC will be the center of the community and will be the management body. > > A good PMC member, I think, is somebody who always try to know and > understand people in our community, on our public and private mailing > lists. > > A good PMC member will always try to make space where other PMC > members, committers and people on mailing lists can contribute > something good for Apache OpenOffice. > A good PMC member will always try to expand such a space. > Which means a good PMC member will always try to guide community > members about how to contribute, and encourage them to contribute, if > they have got good ideas, let them contribute something good for > Apache OpenOffice. > > So a good PMC member doesn't initiate everything, doesn't post > comments to every thread. > > A good PMC member can write a short and simple message in good and > easy English and posts a few. Well written! Best Regards, Dave > > Thanks, > khirano > -- > khir...@apache.org > Apache OpenOffice (incubating) > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On 7 September 2012 22:26, Rob Weir wrote: > On Sep 7, 2012, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Rist wrote: > >> I'm not particularly satisfied with current PMC selection process. I think >> the first pass was actually fairly reasonable, and fairly quickly resulted >> in a list that contains the people who are serious about the project. >> Unfortunately, we haven't been able to find consensus on the next step. I'd >> like to propose a different way to look at this which may lead us to a >> better way to move forward. I think we can avoid the need to organize the >> next step around '-1' (i.e. speaking out against potential PMC members - >> discussions around who to leave off), and instead create an affirmative >> process where we identify who we want on. >> >> What is a good Project Management Committee? >> Here's my start (please expand on this): >> >> * Representative of the diversity of tasks in the community >> (developers, web/wiki/forum, translators, testers, UX, release, >> marketing, press, ecosystem, infrastructure) >> * Representative of the geographical diversity in the community >> * Made up of the most involved members of the community >> * Able and Competent to perform required ASF functions (overseeing >> releases and developing the community) >> * Represents the community in the best possible light >> >> While on one hand I understand why so many of us want to be on the PMC, a >> large PMC is not necessarily in the best interest of the project. The PMC >> should not be making decisions about the direction of the project and on who >> gets to do what - the PMC should be mostly involved with voting in new >> committers and approving releases. The direction of the project should be >> determined on ooo-dev, and by the people who are active in the parts of the >> community listed above. >> >> >> My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: >> I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no >> spreadsheet - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of the >> 10 people you think should be doing the work of the PMC. (the list of names >> we have produced so far is a great place to start for your list, but it is >> not exclusive) Anyone can play! PPMC members, committers, the community. >> Next we use this to produce a list of the group getting the most votes. >> (using PPMC and committer lists as more binding) We can use this to >> produce the next pass at the proposed PMC roster, hopefully a PMC of around >> 20 members. >> > > Interesting idea. Another way of keeping it small and focused would be > to rotate all committers in over time, say 20 at a time for 6 months > at a time. Everyone gets a turn, no one left out and power does not > concentrate. Note that PMC additions and removals require board approval (currently via ACK request/reply and 72hr wait). AIUI this is because the board delegates certain responsibilities to the PMC, so the board must be involved. Also there is a file (committee-info.txt) and LDAP group that need to be maintained. == PMC members have binding votes on releases (and can vote new committers/PMC members), but otherwise don't have any additional powers compared with committers. I'm not sure I understand why a large PMC would be a problem, so I don't see why rotation should be desirable. AFAIK rotation does not happen in any existing TLP. == Podlings with smaller numbers of committers tend to graduate with a PMC consisting of all the still active committers, but there is no requirement for all TLP committers to be PMC members. Some TLPs automatically add new committers to the PMC, but some wait until the committer has been around for a while to prove themselves - no point adding someone to the PMC who is not going to stick around. [In the latter case there may be a lower barrier to inviting someone to committership.]
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
Hi Regina and all, We are making Apache OpenOffice, multilingual and multiplatform office suite. We would like to build a vibrant and healthy community for Apache OpenOffice. Our community will be diverse in its member's language, culture, skill, background etc. PMC will be the center of the community and will be the management body. A good PMC member, I think, is somebody who always try to know and understand people in our community, on our public and private mailing lists. A good PMC member will always try to make space where other PMC members, committers and people on mailing lists can contribute something good for Apache OpenOffice. A good PMC member will always try to expand such a space. Which means a good PMC member will always try to guide community members about how to contribute, and encourage them to contribute, if they have got good ideas, let them contribute something good for Apache OpenOffice. So a good PMC member doesn't initiate everything, doesn't post comments to every thread. A good PMC member can write a short and simple message in good and easy English and posts a few. Thanks, khirano -- khir...@apache.org Apache OpenOffice (incubating) http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On Sep 7, 2012, at 11:41 AM, Andrew Rist wrote: > I'm not particularly satisfied with current PMC selection process. I think > the first pass was actually fairly reasonable, and fairly quickly resulted in > a list that contains the people who are serious about the project. > Unfortunately, we haven't been able to find consensus on the next step. I'd > like to propose a different way to look at this which may lead us to a better > way to move forward. I think we can avoid the need to organize the next > step around '-1' (i.e. speaking out against potential PMC members - > discussions around who to leave off), and instead create an affirmative > process where we identify who we want on. > > What is a good Project Management Committee? > Here's my start (please expand on this): > > * Representative of the diversity of tasks in the community > (developers, web/wiki/forum, translators, testers, UX, release, > marketing, press, ecosystem, infrastructure) > * Representative of the geographical diversity in the community > * Made up of the most involved members of the community > * Able and Competent to perform required ASF functions (overseeing > releases and developing the community) > * Represents the community in the best possible light > > While on one hand I understand why so many of us want to be on the PMC, a > large PMC is not necessarily in the best interest of the project. The PMC > should not be making decisions about the direction of the project and on who > gets to do what - the PMC should be mostly involved with voting in new > committers and approving releases. The direction of the project should be > determined on ooo-dev, and by the people who are active in the parts of the > community listed above. > > > My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: > I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no spreadsheet > - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of the 10 people > you think should be doing the work of the PMC. (the list of names we have > produced so far is a great place to start for your list, but it is not > exclusive) Anyone can play! PPMC members, committers, the community. Next > we use this to produce a list of the group getting the most votes. (using > PPMC and committer lists as more binding) We can use this to produce the > next pass at the proposed PMC roster, hopefully a PMC of around 20 members. If we are doing this then the list should start with the full current list of committers all as candidates. Contributors lists are tabulated separately and compared. (Apache Flex did something similar for a logo contest.) If a non-committer is selected that would be unusual, but not a problem. (Maybe an mail archive access issue, but that is Infra and should not be a concern.) Make the list 10. If someone can't come up with 10 then let's allow repeat names. No voting for yourself. No reason not to have a public vote. We can repeat it on an annual basis. If a PMC has trouble passing releases then we discuss on the dev list. Regards, Dave > > Andrew > > > > > > > >
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
Hi Andrew, That's a good idea. I like it. :) Diversity. This is one of the most important point, I think. :) I tried to provide up to 10 names for the PMC. But it was very difficult for me. I wanted to provide up to around 20 names. :) How about, we can provide up to as many names as we want? One can provide 5 names. Another can provide 22 names etc. Thanks, khirano -- khir...@apache.org Apache OpenOffice (incubating) http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee?
On Sep 7, 2012, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Rist wrote: > I'm not particularly satisfied with current PMC selection process. I think > the first pass was actually fairly reasonable, and fairly quickly resulted in > a list that contains the people who are serious about the project. > Unfortunately, we haven't been able to find consensus on the next step. I'd > like to propose a different way to look at this which may lead us to a better > way to move forward. I think we can avoid the need to organize the next > step around '-1' (i.e. speaking out against potential PMC members - > discussions around who to leave off), and instead create an affirmative > process where we identify who we want on. > > What is a good Project Management Committee? > Here's my start (please expand on this): > > * Representative of the diversity of tasks in the community > (developers, web/wiki/forum, translators, testers, UX, release, > marketing, press, ecosystem, infrastructure) > * Representative of the geographical diversity in the community > * Made up of the most involved members of the community > * Able and Competent to perform required ASF functions (overseeing > releases and developing the community) > * Represents the community in the best possible light > > While on one hand I understand why so many of us want to be on the PMC, a > large PMC is not necessarily in the best interest of the project. The PMC > should not be making decisions about the direction of the project and on who > gets to do what - the PMC should be mostly involved with voting in new > committers and approving releases. The direction of the project should be > determined on ooo-dev, and by the people who are active in the parts of the > community listed above. > > > My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: > I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no spreadsheet > - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of the 10 people > you think should be doing the work of the PMC. (the list of names we have > produced so far is a great place to start for your list, but it is not > exclusive) Anyone can play! PPMC members, committers, the community. Next > we use this to produce a list of the group getting the most votes. (using > PPMC and committer lists as more binding) We can use this to produce the > next pass at the proposed PMC roster, hopefully a PMC of around 20 members. > Interesting idea. Another way of keeping it small and focused would be to rotate all committers in over time, say 20 at a time for 6 months at a time. Everyone gets a turn, no one left out and power does not concentrate. > Andrew > > > > > > > >
What is a good Project Management Committee?
I'm not particularly satisfied with current PMC selection process. I think the first pass was actually fairly reasonable, and fairly quickly resulted in a list that contains the people who are serious about the project. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to find consensus on the next step. I'd like to propose a different way to look at this which may lead us to a better way to move forward. I think we can avoid the need to organize the next step around '-1' (i.e. speaking out against potential PMC members - discussions around who to leave off), and instead create an affirmative process where we identify who we want on. What is a good Project Management Committee? Here's my start (please expand on this): * Representative of the diversity of tasks in the community (developers, web/wiki/forum, translators, testers, UX, release, marketing, press, ecosystem, infrastructure) * Representative of the geographical diversity in the community * Made up of the most involved members of the community * Able and Competent to perform required ASF functions (overseeing releases and developing the community) * Represents the community in the best possible light While on one hand I understand why so many of us want to be on the PMC, a large PMC is not necessarily in the best interest of the project. The PMC should not be making decisions about the direction of the project and on who gets to do what - the PMC should be mostly involved with voting in new committers and approving releases. The direction of the project should be determined on ooo-dev, and by the people who are active in the parts of the community listed above. My Proposal for the next step in the PMC selection process: I suggest that each of us provide up to 10 names for the PMC. no spreadsheet - no voting - no '-1s' for now. Just an affirmative list of the 10 people you think should be doing the work of the PMC. (the list of names we have produced so far is a great place to start for your list, but it is not exclusive) Anyone can play! PPMC members, committers, the community. Next we use this to produce a list of the group getting the most votes. (using PPMC and committer lists as more binding) We can use this to produce the next pass at the proposed PMC roster, hopefully a PMC of around 20 members. Andrew
RE: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
I think the League of Crafty Guitarists is a brilliant metaphor. Thanks Dave. I think it might be good to notice, as well, how audiences respond as participants in such a performance. In pondering the question on this thread, I find that puzzling over roles may be off the mark. I still want to know what would be the evidence of community by how others perceive and respond to the project atmosphere. Today, I will expend my thread-penny on this question: "What has anyone invited/moved to contribute here know they are welcome, know their contribution is honored, and are thrilled with being part of it?" An easy way for anyone to address this question, especially the current committers and PPMC members, is to ask it of themselves. Or we can ask it with someone else's name. For example, "What has orcmid know he is welcome, know his contribution is honored, and thrilled with being part of it?" A greater challenge is having whatever that is work for anyone else I choose to name. Rob, Kay, An, Andrea, Jürgen, Ma, and those who've not yet arrived -- and have it work for me. Since I'm on the PPMC, I have to ask myself this question, "What am I doing to create the [project] world in which I want to live?" Then I get to deal with the gap between my own actions and how I say I want it to be. That's where the not-good-news insights are available. It's humbling. From there, the challenge is finding appropriate action that aligns who I am and how I act that offers up the world I want to live in. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Dave Fisher [mailto:dave2w...@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 22:42 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member? [ ... ] >> Perhaps a better musical metaphor to aspire to might be Robert Fripp's The >> League of Crafty Guitarists [1] I hadn't thought of them for awhile, but I >> saw them live about 25 years ago. A big circle of guitarists sharing and >> passing on riffs. Here the emphasis is on observation and passing the lead. The guitar players are in a circle and are watching each other. Regards, Dave >> >> Regards, >> Dave >> >> [1] http://www.thelcg.net/music.html
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On 7 September 2012 06:42, Dave Fisher wrote: > > On Sep 6, 2012, at 7:26 PM, Rob Weir wrote: > >> On Sep 6, 2012, at 1:17 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: >> >>> >>> On Sep 6, 2012, at 5:42 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: >>> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote: > > Think of an orchestra. We don't expect every player to play every > instrument. But we do expect a musicianship, the ability to play your > part well and in a way that fits with the others, knowing that you > might have a solo sometimes, but at other times you might be playing > harmony or even have a rest. +1. I will go further and state that I don't believe that this project is quite there yet. >>> >>> While the playing together metaphor is great, the orchestra metaphor breaks >>> because there is no conductor and no first chairs. Why all the metaphors and analogies? Team building is a very well-established and researched management issue. We don't need analogies to support best practice in coding so why with management? Let's not get side-tracked into analysing red herrings. What we need is a management structure (or not) that is specifically focused on what a pmc needs to achieve. It would be useful if a mentor could provide guidance on any clear experience of what in their experience has worked best and worst in the context of code development projects at ASF. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On Sep 6, 2012, at 7:26 PM, Rob Weir wrote: > On Sep 6, 2012, at 1:17 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: > >> >> On Sep 6, 2012, at 5:42 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote: Think of an orchestra. We don't expect every player to play every instrument. But we do expect a musicianship, the ability to play your part well and in a way that fits with the others, knowing that you might have a solo sometimes, but at other times you might be playing harmony or even have a rest. >>> >>> +1. >>> >>> I will go further and state that I don't believe that this project is >>> quite there yet. >> >> While the playing together metaphor is great, the orchestra metaphor breaks >> because there is no conductor and no first chairs. >> > > There are orchestras without conductors as well, e.g. the Orpheus > Ensemble. And I don't think sectional leaders are a problem, so long > as it is not exclusionary, e.g., your initial work on ooo-site > demonstrates leadership (taking the lead) of a kind that requires > neither votes nor titles. In other words, where coordination is > required in a given task beyond a given level of complexity it is > natural that leadership emerges. Thanks, and nothing would make me happier than a contributor appearing who wanted to take the lead. I would gladly show them all I know just like Joe did for me. I am very glad that there are many committers working on the website and that it has become one way that we are growing the community. > > >> Perhaps a better musical metaphor to aspire to might be Robert Fripp's The >> League of Crafty Guitarists [1] I hadn't thought of them for awhile, but I >> saw them live about 25 years ago. A big circle of guitarists sharing and >> passing on riffs. Here the emphasis is on observation and passing the lead. The guitar players are in a circle and are watching each other. Regards, Dave >> >> Regards, >> Dave >> >> [1] http://www.thelcg.net/music.html
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On 9/7/2012 10:26 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sep 6, 2012, at 1:17 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: [...] While the playing together metaphor is great, the orchestra metaphor breaks because there is no conductor and no first chairs. There are orchestras without conductors as well, e.g. the Orpheus Ensemble. [...] The Orpheus Ensemble is a chamber orchestra while AOO is more like a symphony orchestra. This analogy is false anyway. A conductor is a kind of dictator while a PMC chair should be a primus inter pares. Peter
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On Sep 6, 2012, at 1:17 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: > > On Sep 6, 2012, at 5:42 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote: >>> >>> Think of an orchestra. We don't expect every player to play every >>> instrument. But we do expect a musicianship, the ability to play your >>> part well and in a way that fits with the others, knowing that you >>> might have a solo sometimes, but at other times you might be playing >>> harmony or even have a rest. >> >> +1. >> >> I will go further and state that I don't believe that this project is >> quite there yet. > > While the playing together metaphor is great, the orchestra metaphor breaks > because there is no conductor and no first chairs. > There are orchestras without conductors as well, e.g. the Orpheus Ensemble. And I don't think sectional leaders are a problem, so long as it is not exclusionary, e.g., your initial work on ooo-site demonstrates leadership (taking the lead) of a kind that requires neither votes nor titles. In other words, where coordination is required in a given task beyond a given level of complexity it is natural that leadership emerges. > Perhaps a better musical metaphor to aspire to might be Robert Fripp's The > League of Crafty Guitarists [1] I hadn't thought of them for awhile, but I > saw them live about 25 years ago. A big circle of guitarists sharing and > passing on riffs. > > Regards, > Dave > > [1] http://www.thelcg.net/music.html
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On Sep 6, 2012, at 5:42 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: > On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote: >> >> Think of an orchestra. We don't expect every player to play every >> instrument. But we do expect a musicianship, the ability to play your >> part well and in a way that fits with the others, knowing that you >> might have a solo sometimes, but at other times you might be playing >> harmony or even have a rest. > > +1. > > I will go further and state that I don't believe that this project is > quite there yet. While the playing together metaphor is great, the orchestra metaphor breaks because there is no conductor and no first chairs. Perhaps a better musical metaphor to aspire to might be Robert Fripp's The League of Crafty Guitarists [1] I hadn't thought of them for awhile, but I saw them live about 25 years ago. A big circle of guitarists sharing and passing on riffs. Regards, Dave [1] http://www.thelcg.net/music.html
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
Hi Juergen, 2012/9/6 Juergen Schmidt > Am Donnerstag, 6. September 2012 um 05:30 schrieb Rob Weir: > > On Sep 5, 2012, at 9:20 AM, "Jürgen Schmidt" > wrote: > > > > > On 9/5/12 11:32 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: > > > > On 5 September 2012 09:40, Regina Henschel > wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > some time ago we expressed, that we think the project is ready to > graduate. > > > > > In the process of graduating, a proposal for a Project Management > Committee > > > > > (PMC) will be brought to the Apache Board. Although discussion > about > > > > > individual persons will not be done public, it is important to get > a shared > > > > > conviction about the criteria for our PMC members. > > > > > > > > > > You find information about project management and the role of the > PMC in > > > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html > > > > > > > > > > With permission of Jürgen Schmidt I will show his items: > > > > > "For me a good PMC member is somebody > > > > > - who is active and visible in the project. It's important that > others > > > > > can see or better are able to recognize valuable contributions. > > > > > - who driving the project forward by helping others to join the > project, > > > > > or helping other in general to find their way in the project > > > > > - who help to grow the eco-system and the popularity of the > project, eg. > > > > > increasing the user base by promoting the project actively on > > > > > conferences, via new medias, etc. > > > > > - who take responsibility for tasks that have to be done and that > help > > > > > to drive the project forward or that help to simply run it. > > > > > - who is able to transport and communicate the vision of the > project > > > > > - who is able to prevent misbehaviour and misconduct on our main > > > > > communication tool the mailing lists but also on our extended > > > > > communication tools like social media > > > > > - who is able to bring in new ideas in the project that opens even > more > > > > > opportunities to grow and to evolve > > > > > - ..." > > > > > > > > > > And here my thoughts: > > > > > A PMC member... > > > > > ...is a person all can trust in. > > > > > ...preserves overview about several areas. > > > > > ...knows, who is expert in a special area, and encourage people > from > > > > > different areas to work together on a topic. > > > > > ...is willing to guide a newcomer. > > > > > ...can identify opposite directions in the community before things > > > > > escalate. > > > > > ...knows about formal requirements and about the Apache structure. > > > > > ...has a vision about the direction of the project, but on the > other > > > > > hand accepts reasoned different development without being offended > (? > > > > > German "eingeschnappt") > > > > > ...sets a good example in treating others and working for the > project. > > > > > ...is reliable. > > > > > ...is willing to assume responsibility. > > > > > ...puts his heart and passion into the project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you miss aspects? Do you think a special item is irrelevant? > What is > > > > > essential? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is aware of the limitations of mailing lists in communication and > > > > actively strives to communicate to engender positive feelings in the > > > > audience. > > > > > > > > Has thought carefully about the role of a PMC member and actively > > > > communicated an intention to be active in that role rather than just > a > > > > name on a list or solely involved in committing code. > > > > > > > > > > > > > we had already some longer discussions on this topic on our private > list > > > which was the result or part of an ongoing process to define a final > PMC > > > that we want to suggest to the IPMC and board as it is required for > > > graduation. > > > > > > Regina has provided a link that give you further information about this > > > topic and what it means to be a PMC. > > > > > > I would like to ask everybody (and especially the PPMC members) here to > > > think about this as individual and what it means for themselves or if > > > they would be interested in being a PMC. > > > > > > > > > I know someone who had the image of an ideal husband, a long list of > > essential qualities, but unfortunately these qualities never came > > together in one person outside of cheap romance novels. Unwed, bitter > > and old was the end results. > > > > So I tend to think of this from a team perspective: what capabilities > > do we need in a PMC? We're not limited by monogyny laws. We don't > > need to find the ultimate uebermensch PMC member. We need a strong > > team. And since most team members will be part time volunteers this > > suggests they might do one nor two things well but gave little > > interest in other areas. We should accept that. > > > > > > I totally agree and that is fine from my pov. The idea is more that people > start thinking about the PMC and what it does mean to be a member of it. >
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On 09/05/2012 01:40 AM, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi all, some time ago we expressed, that we think the project is ready to graduate. In the process of graduating, a proposal for a Project Management Committee (PMC) will be brought to the Apache Board. Although discussion about individual persons will not be done public, it is important to get a shared conviction about the criteria for our PMC members. You find information about project management and the role of the PMC in http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html With permission of Jürgen Schmidt I will show his items: "For me a good PMC member is somebody - who is active and visible in the project. It's important that others can see or better are able to recognize valuable contributions. - who driving the project forward by helping others to join the project, or helping other in general to find their way in the project - who help to grow the eco-system and the popularity of the project, eg. increasing the user base by promoting the project actively on conferences, via new medias, etc. - who take responsibility for tasks that have to be done and that help to drive the project forward or that help to simply run it. - who is able to transport and communicate the vision of the project - who is able to prevent misbehaviour and misconduct on our main communication tool the mailing lists but also on our extended communication tools like social media - who is able to bring in new ideas in the project that opens even more opportunities to grow and to evolve - ..." And here my thoughts: A PMC member... ...is a person all can trust in. ...preserves overview about several areas. ...knows, who is expert in a special area, and encourage people from different areas to work together on a topic. ...is willing to guide a newcomer. ...can identify opposite directions in the community before things escalate. ...knows about formal requirements and about the Apache structure. ...has a vision about the direction of the project, but on the other hand accepts reasoned different development without being offended (? German "eingeschnappt") ...sets a good example in treating others and working for the project. ...is reliable. ...is willing to assume responsibility. ...puts his heart and passion into the project. Do you miss aspects? Do you think a special item is irrelevant? What is essential? Kind regards Regina I think these criteria are great as "leader" characteristics for any Apache project. However, I find them lacking in specific technical qualifications for this project. So, I would add the following (or something similar): * General knowledge of the Open Document specification: http://opendocument.xml.org/ and operations of the OASIS OpenDocument Committee * Knowledge of compliance with ASF "release" standards (this is already mentioned this briefly in one of the points but as the essence of Apace IS product development, I don't think this can be overstressed) Some information can be found here: http://www.apache.org/dev/release.html -- MzK "We never sit anything out. We are cups, constantly and quietly being filled. The trick is, knowing how to tip ourselves over and let the beautiful stuff out." -- Ray Bradbury, "Zen in the Art of Writing"
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On 6 September 2012 16:15, Phillip Rhodes wrote: > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: >> I see two things happening on this thread: Creation of a laundry list for >> what a PMC member should be. A request for PPMC members to be introspective. >> >> I suggest that there is a single issue that, if it were addressed instead, >> would unlock appreciation of what needs to be introduced in order for the >> podling to graduate. >> >> The feedback offered to us is that this podling has failed to demonstrate >> self-governance (in the Apache Way of things), particularly with regard to >> healthy community building. That's the feedback. >> >> It's not about technical skills, the quality of the code base, participation >> in various activities, none of those things. >> >> Here are two questions that should be for someone to answer about us: >> >> 1. What would be the visible evidence that the podling, with its PMC, is >> self-governing and healthy, with strong fostering of a sustainable community? >> >> 2. In what ways do PMC members demonstrate their commitment to creation and >> sustaining of such a healthy self-governing project? >> >> Here's one suggestion: Participants and contributors experience being >> welcome and valued. > > Well said. I agree, those are two primary points that need to be > addressed. Let's have some specificity here, so we can get to work > making some progress. 1. Elect an interim Chair to direct the transition from PPMC to PMC - the interim Chair does not need to be the prospective pmc Chair or even necessarily a pmc member, just someone everyone trusts to conduct the process impartially and inclusively. 2. Setting up a new thread here and getting off the private list seems to be a good start ;-) I'd expect all prospective pmc members to show some active part in this discussion otherwise what likelihood is there that they will take an active part in any future pmc business? -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > I see two things happening on this thread: Creation of a laundry list for > what a PMC member should be. A request for PPMC members to be introspective. > > I suggest that there is a single issue that, if it were addressed instead, > would unlock appreciation of what needs to be introduced in order for the > podling to graduate. > > The feedback offered to us is that this podling has failed to demonstrate > self-governance (in the Apache Way of things), particularly with regard to > healthy community building. That's the feedback. > > It's not about technical skills, the quality of the code base, participation > in various activities, none of those things. > > Here are two questions that should be for someone to answer about us: > > 1. What would be the visible evidence that the podling, with its PMC, is > self-governing and healthy, with strong fostering of a sustainable community? > > 2. In what ways do PMC members demonstrate their commitment to creation and > sustaining of such a healthy self-governing project? > > Here's one suggestion: Participants and contributors experience being welcome > and valued. Well said. I agree, those are two primary points that need to be addressed. Let's have some specificity here, so we can get to work making some progress. Phil
RE: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
I see two things happening on this thread: Creation of a laundry list for what a PMC member should be. A request for PPMC members to be introspective. I suggest that there is a single issue that, if it were addressed instead, would unlock appreciation of what needs to be introduced in order for the podling to graduate. The feedback offered to us is that this podling has failed to demonstrate self-governance (in the Apache Way of things), particularly with regard to healthy community building. That's the feedback. It's not about technical skills, the quality of the code base, participation in various activities, none of those things. Here are two questions that should be for someone to answer about us: 1. What would be the visible evidence that the podling, with its PMC, is self-governing and healthy, with strong fostering of a sustainable community? 2. In what ways do PMC members demonstrate their commitment to creation and sustaining of such a healthy self-governing project? Here's one suggestion: Participants and contributors experience being welcome and valued. Here's another: Suggestions and discussion is respectful with thoughtful consideration and honoring of all viewpoints. I wager that others can say what would have them know they are in an exciting, thriving community. What do you see? I prefer affirmative qualities. Sometimes it is necessary to also say what would not be evident. Bull-dozing, hogging the microphone, etc. I invite focus on positive qualities. Perhaps there is a positive quality on how non-constructive behaviors are dealt with, though. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Juergen Schmidt [mailto:jogischm...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 21:56 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member? Am Donnerstag, 6. September 2012 um 05:30 schrieb Rob Weir: [ ... ] ... The idea is more that people start thinking about the PMC and what it does mean to be a member of it. For example if a PPMC thinks that it is happy with the thinks it is doing and don't want to be in the final PMC for some reason this member can give us as signal. > > For example we recently had a PPMC member who was derided by a Mentor > for not being interested in the CMS. It was suggested that this was a > failure as a PMC member. I disagree. It is fine to focus > contributions in one area do long as one takes care to consider the > community wide implications of those contributions and is helping to > grow and support the community in that area. > > I agree again and the question is how to find the strong PMC team. My thought with my email was that the current PPMC members help actively by reflecting their own role. > > Think of an orchestra. We don't expect every player to play every > instrument. But we do expect a musicianship, the ability to play your > part well and in a way that fits with the others, knowing that you > might have a solo sometimes, but at other times you might be playing > harmony or even have a rest. > > I like this comparison very much it fits perfect in our case. [ ... ]
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On 6 September 2012 10:59, Jürgen Schmidt wrote: > On 9/6/12 10:51 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: >> On 6 September 2012 05:55, Juergen Schmidt wrote: >>> Am Donnerstag, 6. September 2012 um 05:30 schrieb Rob Weir: On Sep 5, 2012, at 9:20 AM, "Jürgen Schmidt" wrote: >> >>> I agree again and the question is how to find the strong PMC team. My >>> thought with my email was that the current PPMC members help actively by >>> reflecting their own role. >> >> The classic work on team roles is Belbin - >> http://www.belbin.com/rte.asp?id=8 Worth a look. I'm not suggesting >> all potential pmc members do the self-assessment, but understanding >> the nature of complementary roles in a team might be useful. There is >> plenty of free stuff on the web about this. >> >> The analysis provides an insight into preferred team roles. For me I >> have come out as Coordinator, Resource Inv, Plant in different >> contexts but low on completer finisher every time :-). All role >> preferences have good and potentially weak aspects and its only >> relative to you so someone scoring them selves weakly in one role in >> one circumstance might actually be stronger in that role than someone >> else scoring themselves higher. You have to prioritise a fixed score >> across the roles so it is your preferred role that scores highest not >> necessarily something you are good at! >> > - What is my intention with this project? >> >> For me it is to provide help in any way I can within the constraints >> of my obligations to the people I employ. >> > - Why I am here and what do I want to achieve? >> >> To be broadly useful, so that I make a small contribution to >> displacing proprietary document standards with open royalty free >> standards. I see AOO as strategically important in that aim. >> > - What is my main interest and how do I want to contribute? >> >> My main area of interest is education and training. I hope to be able >> to increase the spread of AOO through those channels but I can provide >> advice and support for others in those fields. I also have some >> expertise in writing EU and other grant applications so with that and >> other business strategies I have a possibility of bringing further >> development resources to the project. >> > - Is being a PMC member a status symbol for me? >> >> Probably my status in other groups is higher in the main social >> circles in which I operate. Most of my colleagues would not know what >> a pmc was and few would know what Apache was apart from its native >> american meaning. That is part of my dilemma. I have limited time to >> work on the project except in areas that are complementary to other >> work but there is scope for that. >> > - Is being a PMC member a privilege or a burden? >> >> To be honest, both :-) For me juggling time always provides pressure >> so in that sense there are many competing burdens but of course all >> have the privilege and satisfaction side too. >> > - Do I want or I am ready to take the responsibility and role of a PMC > member? >> >> I think so but others could think differently a) Others might or might >> not think what I have to offer is of value and b) I need flexibility >> to fit it into other work. Since other people's employment depends >> directly on me that has to have the priority. >> > - Do I want to be a committer or is being a committer enough for me and > enough to achieve my goals and interests here? >> >> Probably for the roles I am best suited to the technical aspect of >> being a committer are not essential. While I have programming >> experience it is a long time ago and it would take considerable time >> for me to learn enough of the specific technicalities to make >> meaningful code commitments. It's not impossible though and it is >> possible that I could contribute on the web site, graphics or that >> type of thing. >> > - Being a PMC member is important to me, why? How I do I want to > contribute as PMC member? >> >> I have a lot of experience in management and a higher degree in it so >> I guess I have relevant qualifications and experience and hope to be >> able to put those to good use. Membership provides a focus to >> encourage active involvement and enables me to then take opportunities >> to help support the project where these arise. eg I'm working on >> organising the openclipart library into logical categories as part of >> an EU funded project. This could also be useful to AOO. It's not >> always easy to predict exactly what opportunities arise until they do. >> > > My intention was not really that people start answering the questions > here on the list but more for themselves. Anybody should feel free to do > it but I would like to make clear it is no must and demanded. > > Juergen Sorry, I should have said I was just posting to give a specific example not because I thought it mandatory. Some people like to see concrete examples and probably I'm a bit different from "code com
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote: > > Think of an orchestra. We don't expect every player to play every > instrument. But we do expect a musicianship, the ability to play your > part well and in a way that fits with the others, knowing that you > might have a solo sometimes, but at other times you might be playing > harmony or even have a rest. +1. I will go further and state that I don't believe that this project is quite there yet. - Sam Ruby
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On 9/6/12 10:51 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: > On 6 September 2012 05:55, Juergen Schmidt wrote: >> Am Donnerstag, 6. September 2012 um 05:30 schrieb Rob Weir: >>> On Sep 5, 2012, at 9:20 AM, "Jürgen Schmidt" wrote: > >> I agree again and the question is how to find the strong PMC team. My >> thought with my email was that the current PPMC members help actively by >> reflecting their own role. > > The classic work on team roles is Belbin - > http://www.belbin.com/rte.asp?id=8 Worth a look. I'm not suggesting > all potential pmc members do the self-assessment, but understanding > the nature of complementary roles in a team might be useful. There is > plenty of free stuff on the web about this. > > The analysis provides an insight into preferred team roles. For me I > have come out as Coordinator, Resource Inv, Plant in different > contexts but low on completer finisher every time :-). All role > preferences have good and potentially weak aspects and its only > relative to you so someone scoring them selves weakly in one role in > one circumstance might actually be stronger in that role than someone > else scoring themselves higher. You have to prioritise a fixed score > across the roles so it is your preferred role that scores highest not > necessarily something you are good at! > - What is my intention with this project? > > For me it is to provide help in any way I can within the constraints > of my obligations to the people I employ. > - Why I am here and what do I want to achieve? > > To be broadly useful, so that I make a small contribution to > displacing proprietary document standards with open royalty free > standards. I see AOO as strategically important in that aim. > - What is my main interest and how do I want to contribute? > > My main area of interest is education and training. I hope to be able > to increase the spread of AOO through those channels but I can provide > advice and support for others in those fields. I also have some > expertise in writing EU and other grant applications so with that and > other business strategies I have a possibility of bringing further > development resources to the project. > - Is being a PMC member a status symbol for me? > > Probably my status in other groups is higher in the main social > circles in which I operate. Most of my colleagues would not know what > a pmc was and few would know what Apache was apart from its native > american meaning. That is part of my dilemma. I have limited time to > work on the project except in areas that are complementary to other > work but there is scope for that. > - Is being a PMC member a privilege or a burden? > > To be honest, both :-) For me juggling time always provides pressure > so in that sense there are many competing burdens but of course all > have the privilege and satisfaction side too. > - Do I want or I am ready to take the responsibility and role of a PMC member? > > I think so but others could think differently a) Others might or might > not think what I have to offer is of value and b) I need flexibility > to fit it into other work. Since other people's employment depends > directly on me that has to have the priority. > - Do I want to be a committer or is being a committer enough for me and enough to achieve my goals and interests here? > > Probably for the roles I am best suited to the technical aspect of > being a committer are not essential. While I have programming > experience it is a long time ago and it would take considerable time > for me to learn enough of the specific technicalities to make > meaningful code commitments. It's not impossible though and it is > possible that I could contribute on the web site, graphics or that > type of thing. > - Being a PMC member is important to me, why? How I do I want to contribute as PMC member? > > I have a lot of experience in management and a higher degree in it so > I guess I have relevant qualifications and experience and hope to be > able to put those to good use. Membership provides a focus to > encourage active involvement and enables me to then take opportunities > to help support the project where these arise. eg I'm working on > organising the openclipart library into logical categories as part of > an EU funded project. This could also be useful to AOO. It's not > always easy to predict exactly what opportunities arise until they do. > My intention was not really that people start answering the questions here on the list but more for themselves. Anybody should feel free to do it but I would like to make clear it is no must and demanded. Juergen
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On 6 September 2012 05:55, Juergen Schmidt wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 6. September 2012 um 05:30 schrieb Rob Weir: >> On Sep 5, 2012, at 9:20 AM, "Jürgen Schmidt" wrote: > I agree again and the question is how to find the strong PMC team. My thought > with my email was that the current PPMC members help actively by reflecting > their own role. The classic work on team roles is Belbin - http://www.belbin.com/rte.asp?id=8 Worth a look. I'm not suggesting all potential pmc members do the self-assessment, but understanding the nature of complementary roles in a team might be useful. There is plenty of free stuff on the web about this. The analysis provides an insight into preferred team roles. For me I have come out as Coordinator, Resource Inv, Plant in different contexts but low on completer finisher every time :-). All role preferences have good and potentially weak aspects and its only relative to you so someone scoring them selves weakly in one role in one circumstance might actually be stronger in that role than someone else scoring themselves higher. You have to prioritise a fixed score across the roles so it is your preferred role that scores highest not necessarily something you are good at! >> > - What is my intention with this project? For me it is to provide help in any way I can within the constraints of my obligations to the people I employ. >> > - Why I am here and what do I want to achieve? To be broadly useful, so that I make a small contribution to displacing proprietary document standards with open royalty free standards. I see AOO as strategically important in that aim. >> > - What is my main interest and how do I want to contribute? My main area of interest is education and training. I hope to be able to increase the spread of AOO through those channels but I can provide advice and support for others in those fields. I also have some expertise in writing EU and other grant applications so with that and other business strategies I have a possibility of bringing further development resources to the project. >> > - Is being a PMC member a status symbol for me? Probably my status in other groups is higher in the main social circles in which I operate. Most of my colleagues would not know what a pmc was and few would know what Apache was apart from its native american meaning. That is part of my dilemma. I have limited time to work on the project except in areas that are complementary to other work but there is scope for that. >> > - Is being a PMC member a privilege or a burden? To be honest, both :-) For me juggling time always provides pressure so in that sense there are many competing burdens but of course all have the privilege and satisfaction side too. >> > - Do I want or I am ready to take the responsibility and role of a PMC >> > member? I think so but others could think differently a) Others might or might not think what I have to offer is of value and b) I need flexibility to fit it into other work. Since other people's employment depends directly on me that has to have the priority. >> > - Do I want to be a committer or is being a committer enough for me and >> > enough to achieve my goals and interests here? Probably for the roles I am best suited to the technical aspect of being a committer are not essential. While I have programming experience it is a long time ago and it would take considerable time for me to learn enough of the specific technicalities to make meaningful code commitments. It's not impossible though and it is possible that I could contribute on the web site, graphics or that type of thing. >> > - Being a PMC member is important to me, why? How I do I want to >> > contribute as PMC member? I have a lot of experience in management and a higher degree in it so I guess I have relevant qualifications and experience and hope to be able to put those to good use. Membership provides a focus to encourage active involvement and enables me to then take opportunities to help support the project where these arise. eg I'm working on organising the openclipart library into logical categories as part of an EU funded project. This could also be useful to AOO. It's not always easy to predict exactly what opportunities arise until they do. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
Am Donnerstag, 6. September 2012 um 05:30 schrieb Rob Weir: > On Sep 5, 2012, at 9:20 AM, "Jürgen Schmidt" wrote: > > > On 9/5/12 11:32 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: > > > On 5 September 2012 09:40, Regina Henschel > > > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > some time ago we expressed, that we think the project is ready to > > > > graduate. > > > > In the process of graduating, a proposal for a Project Management > > > > Committee > > > > (PMC) will be brought to the Apache Board. Although discussion about > > > > individual persons will not be done public, it is important to get a > > > > shared > > > > conviction about the criteria for our PMC members. > > > > > > > > You find information about project management and the role of the PMC in > > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html > > > > > > > > With permission of Jürgen Schmidt I will show his items: > > > > "For me a good PMC member is somebody > > > > - who is active and visible in the project. It's important that others > > > > can see or better are able to recognize valuable contributions. > > > > - who driving the project forward by helping others to join the project, > > > > or helping other in general to find their way in the project > > > > - who help to grow the eco-system and the popularity of the project, eg. > > > > increasing the user base by promoting the project actively on > > > > conferences, via new medias, etc. > > > > - who take responsibility for tasks that have to be done and that help > > > > to drive the project forward or that help to simply run it. > > > > - who is able to transport and communicate the vision of the project > > > > - who is able to prevent misbehaviour and misconduct on our main > > > > communication tool the mailing lists but also on our extended > > > > communication tools like social media > > > > - who is able to bring in new ideas in the project that opens even more > > > > opportunities to grow and to evolve > > > > - ..." > > > > > > > > And here my thoughts: > > > > A PMC member... > > > > ...is a person all can trust in. > > > > ...preserves overview about several areas. > > > > ...knows, who is expert in a special area, and encourage people from > > > > different areas to work together on a topic. > > > > ...is willing to guide a newcomer. > > > > ...can identify opposite directions in the community before things > > > > escalate. > > > > ...knows about formal requirements and about the Apache structure. > > > > ...has a vision about the direction of the project, but on the other > > > > hand accepts reasoned different development without being offended (? > > > > German "eingeschnappt") > > > > ...sets a good example in treating others and working for the project. > > > > ...is reliable. > > > > ...is willing to assume responsibility. > > > > ...puts his heart and passion into the project. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you miss aspects? Do you think a special item is irrelevant? What is > > > > essential? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is aware of the limitations of mailing lists in communication and > > > actively strives to communicate to engender positive feelings in the > > > audience. > > > > > > Has thought carefully about the role of a PMC member and actively > > > communicated an intention to be active in that role rather than just a > > > name on a list or solely involved in committing code. > > > > > > > > > we had already some longer discussions on this topic on our private list > > which was the result or part of an ongoing process to define a final PMC > > that we want to suggest to the IPMC and board as it is required for > > graduation. > > > > Regina has provided a link that give you further information about this > > topic and what it means to be a PMC. > > > > I would like to ask everybody (and especially the PPMC members) here to > > think about this as individual and what it means for themselves or if > > they would be interested in being a PMC. > > > > > I know someone who had the image of an ideal husband, a long list of > essential qualities, but unfortunately these qualities never came > together in one person outside of cheap romance novels. Unwed, bitter > and old was the end results. > > So I tend to think of this from a team perspective: what capabilities > do we need in a PMC? We're not limited by monogyny laws. We don't > need to find the ultimate uebermensch PMC member. We need a strong > team. And since most team members will be part time volunteers this > suggests they might do one nor two things well but gave little > interest in other areas. We should accept that. > > I totally agree and that is fine from my pov. The idea is more that people start thinking about the PMC and what it does mean to be a member of it. For example if a PPMC thinks that it is happy with the thinks it is doing and don't want to be in the final PMC for some reason this member can give us as signal. > > For example we recently had a PP
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On Sep 5, 2012, at 9:20 AM, "Jürgen Schmidt" wrote: > On 9/5/12 11:32 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: >> On 5 September 2012 09:40, Regina Henschel wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> some time ago we expressed, that we think the project is ready to graduate. >>> In the process of graduating, a proposal for a Project Management Committee >>> (PMC) will be brought to the Apache Board. Although discussion about >>> individual persons will not be done public, it is important to get a shared >>> conviction about the criteria for our PMC members. >>> >>> You find information about project management and the role of the PMC in >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html >>> >>> With permission of Jürgen Schmidt I will show his items: >>> "For me a good PMC member is somebody >>> - who is active and visible in the project. It's important that others >>> can see or better are able to recognize valuable contributions. >>> - who driving the project forward by helping others to join the project, >>> or helping other in general to find their way in the project >>> - who help to grow the eco-system and the popularity of the project, eg. >>> increasing the user base by promoting the project actively on >>> conferences, via new medias, etc. >>> - who take responsibility for tasks that have to be done and that help >>> to drive the project forward or that help to simply run it. >>> - who is able to transport and communicate the vision of the project >>> - who is able to prevent misbehaviour and misconduct on our main >>> communication tool the mailing lists but also on our extended >>> communication tools like social media >>> - who is able to bring in new ideas in the project that opens even more >>> opportunities to grow and to evolve >>> - ..." >>> >>> And here my thoughts: >>> A PMC member... >>> ...is a person all can trust in. >>> ...preserves overview about several areas. >>> ...knows, who is expert in a special area, and encourage people from >>> different areas to work together on a topic. >>> ...is willing to guide a newcomer. >>> ...can identify opposite directions in the community before things >>> escalate. >>> ...knows about formal requirements and about the Apache structure. >>> ...has a vision about the direction of the project, but on the other >>> hand accepts reasoned different development without being offended (? >>> German "eingeschnappt") >>> ...sets a good example in treating others and working for the project. >>> ...is reliable. >>> ...is willing to assume responsibility. >>> ...puts his heart and passion into the project. >>> >>> >>> Do you miss aspects? Do you think a special item is irrelevant? What is >>> essential? >> >> Is aware of the limitations of mailing lists in communication and >> actively strives to communicate to engender positive feelings in the >> audience. >> >> Has thought carefully about the role of a PMC member and actively >> communicated an intention to be active in that role rather than just a >> name on a list or solely involved in committing code. > > we had already some longer discussions on this topic on our private list > which was the result or part of an ongoing process to define a final PMC > that we want to suggest to the IPMC and board as it is required for > graduation. > > Regina has provided a link that give you further information about this > topic and what it means to be a PMC. > > I would like to ask everybody (and especially the PPMC members) here to > think about this as individual and what it means for themselves or if > they would be interested in being a PMC. > I know someone who had the image of an ideal husband, a long list of essential qualities, but unfortunately these qualities never came together in one person outside of cheap romance novels. Unwed, bitter and old was the end results. So I tend to think of this from a team perspective: what capabilities do we need in a PMC? We're not limited by monogyny laws. We don't need to find the ultimate uebermensch PMC member. We need a strong team. And since most team members will be part time volunteers this suggests they might do one nor two things well but gave little interest in other areas. We should accept that. For example we recently had a PPMC member who was derided by a Mentor for not being interested in the CMS. It was suggested that this was a failure as a PMC member. I disagree. It is fine to focus contributions in one area do long as one takes care to consider the community wide implications of those contributions and is helping to grow and support the community in that area. Think of an orchestra. We don't expect every player to play every instrument. But we do expect a musicianship, the ability to play your part well and in a way that fits with the others, knowing that you might have a solo sometimes, but at other times you might be playing harmony or even have a rest. > Maybe some questions that you can answer yourself can help to find an > answer: > > - What is my intention with this
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
This is a great discussion. Info for the newly arrived: currently, the AOO podling is governed by the Podling Project Management Committee (PPMC) members - voting on releases, new committers, etc. For the podling to "graduate" and become a top level project (TLP), the podling needs to submit a graduation proposal, including a future list of Project Management Committee (PMC) members, including a Chair of the PMC, to the Incubator PMC. Once the Incubator PMC votes on it, the proposal goes to the Board of Directors of the ASF for a final vote to formally create AOO as a project of the ASF. https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#process On 9/5/2012 3:19 PM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote: On 9/5/12 11:32 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: On 5 September 2012 09:40, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi all, some time ago we expressed, that we think the project is ready to graduate. In the process of graduating, a proposal for a Project Management Committee (PMC) will be brought to the Apache Board. Although discussion about individual persons will not be done public, it is important to get a shared conviction about the criteria for our PMC members. You find information about project management and the role of the PMC in http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html From the Apache governance point of view, I'd recommend these two pages which also define and describe (in the larger context of a PMC) the basic duties of PMC members and PMC chairs: http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs.html Being a PMC member is about having the ability to directly help govern the project direction, primarily by voting on releases, and proposing and voting on new committers or PMC members. Each TLP's PMC (but not not podlings/PPMCs) also has a Chair of the committee - a single individual who is also appointed as the Vice President of the project by a board resolution. Conceptually, there are two kinds of duties the chair needs to perform: - The first is paperwork: the chair is the person tasked with ensuring that various ASF organizational paperwork is completed accurately and in a timely manner: PMC roster changes, new committer activations, and board reports. In some cases, the chair or a specific designee must actually do the duties (requesting ACKs, etc.). In other cases - like writing a board report - the PMC as a whole often helps or does the work, although it should be the chair that should actually check the report into the board agenda. - The second is to serve as the representative of the project to the board, and vice-versa. This is why PMC chairs are officers of the corporation: they are directly responsible to the board both to make accurate reports on what the project is doing to the board (via quarterly reports), as well as taking feedback from the board back to the project to consider and act on. Thus, PMC chairs are required to subscribe to the board@ mailing list (which is only open to Members and officers). Note that operationally, PMC chairs typically act the same as any other PMC member: they don't have other special privileges, they only get one vote, and in general project governance decisions are expected to be made by the PMC as a whole. From the Apache point of view, the current employment of a chair is not an issue; however the podling should be aware that the external *perception* of the selection of the chair for a project like AOO is something to keep in the back of your mind. ...snip excellent lists of traits of a good PMC member... I'd urge everyone to read through Jurgen's excellent ideas in the previous email on this thread.While no-one should assume that being a PMC member is a full-time job, he does have some really good questions for people to think about. ... snip Jurgen's excellent ideas... And the end of this email I want to say that from my point of view "roles" are not so important. We are all equal here in the project and I think we all have the same goal. We want make AOO even more successful and we want a community where it is fun to be part of it and where anybody can drive things forward by simply doing it aligned with the overall project rules and guidelines. Indeed - roles should not be important in how actual project work gets done the majority of the time. Apache projects rely on many different people volunteering their time and skills freely to donate code, ideas, documentation, tests, and all sorts of other things to our projects. Anyone should feel welcome to propose ideas and send patches to our code, websites, and policies. So whether someone is on the final PMC after graduation or not doesn't affect the great majority of things any volunteer here can do. - Shane P.S. Thanks Regina et al for taking this to ooo-dev@!
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On 9/5/12 11:32 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: > On 5 September 2012 09:40, Regina Henschel wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> some time ago we expressed, that we think the project is ready to graduate. >> In the process of graduating, a proposal for a Project Management Committee >> (PMC) will be brought to the Apache Board. Although discussion about >> individual persons will not be done public, it is important to get a shared >> conviction about the criteria for our PMC members. >> >> You find information about project management and the role of the PMC in >> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html >> >> With permission of Jürgen Schmidt I will show his items: >> "For me a good PMC member is somebody >> - who is active and visible in the project. It's important that others >> can see or better are able to recognize valuable contributions. >> - who driving the project forward by helping others to join the project, >> or helping other in general to find their way in the project >> - who help to grow the eco-system and the popularity of the project, eg. >> increasing the user base by promoting the project actively on >> conferences, via new medias, etc. >> - who take responsibility for tasks that have to be done and that help >> to drive the project forward or that help to simply run it. >> - who is able to transport and communicate the vision of the project >> - who is able to prevent misbehaviour and misconduct on our main >> communication tool the mailing lists but also on our extended >> communication tools like social media >> - who is able to bring in new ideas in the project that opens even more >> opportunities to grow and to evolve >> - ..." >> >> And here my thoughts: >> A PMC member... >> ...is a person all can trust in. >> ...preserves overview about several areas. >> ...knows, who is expert in a special area, and encourage people from >> different areas to work together on a topic. >> ...is willing to guide a newcomer. >> ...can identify opposite directions in the community before things >> escalate. >> ...knows about formal requirements and about the Apache structure. >> ...has a vision about the direction of the project, but on the other >> hand accepts reasoned different development without being offended (? >> German "eingeschnappt") >> ...sets a good example in treating others and working for the project. >> ...is reliable. >> ...is willing to assume responsibility. >> ...puts his heart and passion into the project. >> >> >> Do you miss aspects? Do you think a special item is irrelevant? What is >> essential? > > Is aware of the limitations of mailing lists in communication and > actively strives to communicate to engender positive feelings in the > audience. > > Has thought carefully about the role of a PMC member and actively > communicated an intention to be active in that role rather than just a > name on a list or solely involved in committing code. we had already some longer discussions on this topic on our private list which was the result or part of an ongoing process to define a final PMC that we want to suggest to the IPMC and board as it is required for graduation. Regina has provided a link that give you further information about this topic and what it means to be a PMC. I would like to ask everybody (and especially the PPMC members) here to think about this as individual and what it means for themselves or if they would be interested in being a PMC. Maybe some questions that you can answer yourself can help to find an answer: - What is my intention with this project? - Why I am here and what do I want to achieve? - What is my main interest and how do I want to contribute? - Is being a PMC member a status symbol for me? - Is being a PMC member a privilege or a burden? - Do I want or I am ready to take the responsibility and role of a PMC member? - Do I want to be a committer or is being a committer enough for me and enough to achieve my goals and interests here? - Being a PMC member is important to me, why? How I do I want to contribute as PMC member? Don't put too much weight in the questions, the intention is only to give you some ideas. Please build your own picture and take it serious. And the most important point is whatever you will find out for yourself, it doesn't prevent you to be part and an active member of this project. You don't even have to be a committer to be part of this project. Being a committer simplifies often some things and is of course recommended over time if you plan to be a code contributor. And if you think you can do more for the project and in the community you can take at any time the necessary actions to become a PMC member. Simply keep in mind that PMC membership can't be bought, can't be required or expected. It have to be earned by appropriate actions... We will continue the selection of our final PMC and it is important to understand that we try to find the best solution from a project perspective. We had the special situation that we had
RE: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
Some musings: 1. I notice that the cafeteria tray is getting very full with these items. 2. I wonder if using a wiki page would be better for consolidating the consideration of traits and distinguishing what a PMC member shall bring to the party beyond being a committer. 3. The "Boy Scout Oath" came to mind for some reason. Not that it is exactly what we are looking for, but it certainly provides a kind of elevator speech on what makes a Boy Scout. I don't mean this for PMC, but it is interesting as a concept, not in detail. This is what it is in the US, and what it was when I was a Scout some 60 years ago: <http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsoath.asp>. It's interesting that the Boy Scout Motto is the same everywhere: "Be Prepared." 4. FOCUS ON COMMUNITY BUILDING? Something that has been a struggle on the PPMC is addressing the Podling's actual preparedness and qualification for graduation (the public sentiment that AOO is ready not being enough). In grappling with how qualification is demonstrated in terms of what the ASF requires of a Top Level Project there is a serious question concerning how well the AOO PPMC fosters community and a healthy project. It might be that this trait and how PMC members actively contribute to it is a critical place to focus. It is a duty of the PMC, and it is above and beyond the technical skills of the individual members. Without it, AOOi does not graduate. 5. SO WHAT IS A HEALTHY, COMMUNITY-FOSTERING PROJECT? What is meant by community? Shane Curcuru's blog is named "Community Before Code." What does that mean and what does the PMC and its membership bring to its fulfillment? 6. I am willing to be perfectly clueless about this and ask those already steeped in the Apache Way for guidance. Based on recent discussions with Shane, I think I see the AOO community a bit more broadly than he might. But that doesn't matter. I think the traits of interest aren't contingent on having agreement on community scope, but its healthy fostering. What would that be? And how is it manifest and evident to all onlookers? - Dennis -Original Message- From: Ian Lynch [mailto:ianrly...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 02:32 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member? On 5 September 2012 09:40, Regina Henschel wrote: > Hi all, > > some time ago we expressed, that we think the project is ready to graduate. > In the process of graduating, a proposal for a Project Management Committee > (PMC) will be brought to the Apache Board. Although discussion about > individual persons will not be done public, it is important to get a shared > conviction about the criteria for our PMC members. > > You find information about project management and the role of the PMC in > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html > > With permission of Jürgen Schmidt I will show his items: > "For me a good PMC member is somebody > - who is active and visible in the project. It's important that others > can see or better are able to recognize valuable contributions. > - who driving the project forward by helping others to join the project, > or helping other in general to find their way in the project > - who help to grow the eco-system and the popularity of the project, eg. > increasing the user base by promoting the project actively on > conferences, via new medias, etc. > - who take responsibility for tasks that have to be done and that help > to drive the project forward or that help to simply run it. > - who is able to transport and communicate the vision of the project > - who is able to prevent misbehaviour and misconduct on our main > communication tool the mailing lists but also on our extended > communication tools like social media > - who is able to bring in new ideas in the project that opens even more > opportunities to grow and to evolve > - ..." > > And here my thoughts: > A PMC member... > ...is a person all can trust in. > ...preserves overview about several areas. > ...knows, who is expert in a special area, and encourage people from > different areas to work together on a topic. > ...is willing to guide a newcomer. > ...can identify opposite directions in the community before things > escalate. > ...knows about formal requirements and about the Apache structure. > ...has a vision about the direction of the project, but on the other > hand accepts reasoned different development without being offended (? > German "eingeschnappt") > ...sets a good example in treating others and working for the project. > ...is reliable. > ...is willing to assume responsibility. > ...puts his heart and passion into the project. > > > Do
Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?
On 5 September 2012 09:40, Regina Henschel wrote: > Hi all, > > some time ago we expressed, that we think the project is ready to graduate. > In the process of graduating, a proposal for a Project Management Committee > (PMC) will be brought to the Apache Board. Although discussion about > individual persons will not be done public, it is important to get a shared > conviction about the criteria for our PMC members. > > You find information about project management and the role of the PMC in > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html > > With permission of Jürgen Schmidt I will show his items: > "For me a good PMC member is somebody > - who is active and visible in the project. It's important that others > can see or better are able to recognize valuable contributions. > - who driving the project forward by helping others to join the project, > or helping other in general to find their way in the project > - who help to grow the eco-system and the popularity of the project, eg. > increasing the user base by promoting the project actively on > conferences, via new medias, etc. > - who take responsibility for tasks that have to be done and that help > to drive the project forward or that help to simply run it. > - who is able to transport and communicate the vision of the project > - who is able to prevent misbehaviour and misconduct on our main > communication tool the mailing lists but also on our extended > communication tools like social media > - who is able to bring in new ideas in the project that opens even more > opportunities to grow and to evolve > - ..." > > And here my thoughts: > A PMC member... > ...is a person all can trust in. > ...preserves overview about several areas. > ...knows, who is expert in a special area, and encourage people from > different areas to work together on a topic. > ...is willing to guide a newcomer. > ...can identify opposite directions in the community before things > escalate. > ...knows about formal requirements and about the Apache structure. > ...has a vision about the direction of the project, but on the other > hand accepts reasoned different development without being offended (? > German "eingeschnappt") > ...sets a good example in treating others and working for the project. > ...is reliable. > ...is willing to assume responsibility. > ...puts his heart and passion into the project. > > > Do you miss aspects? Do you think a special item is irrelevant? What is > essential? Is aware of the limitations of mailing lists in communication and actively strives to communicate to engender positive feelings in the audience. Has thought carefully about the role of a PMC member and actively communicated an intention to be active in that role rather than just a name on a list or solely involved in committing code. > Kind regards > Regina -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
What is a good Project Management Committee member?
Hi all, some time ago we expressed, that we think the project is ready to graduate. In the process of graduating, a proposal for a Project Management Committee (PMC) will be brought to the Apache Board. Although discussion about individual persons will not be done public, it is important to get a shared conviction about the criteria for our PMC members. You find information about project management and the role of the PMC in http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html With permission of Jürgen Schmidt I will show his items: "For me a good PMC member is somebody - who is active and visible in the project. It's important that others can see or better are able to recognize valuable contributions. - who driving the project forward by helping others to join the project, or helping other in general to find their way in the project - who help to grow the eco-system and the popularity of the project, eg. increasing the user base by promoting the project actively on conferences, via new medias, etc. - who take responsibility for tasks that have to be done and that help to drive the project forward or that help to simply run it. - who is able to transport and communicate the vision of the project - who is able to prevent misbehaviour and misconduct on our main communication tool the mailing lists but also on our extended communication tools like social media - who is able to bring in new ideas in the project that opens even more opportunities to grow and to evolve - ..." And here my thoughts: A PMC member... ...is a person all can trust in. ...preserves overview about several areas. ...knows, who is expert in a special area, and encourage people from different areas to work together on a topic. ...is willing to guide a newcomer. ...can identify opposite directions in the community before things escalate. ...knows about formal requirements and about the Apache structure. ...has a vision about the direction of the project, but on the other hand accepts reasoned different development without being offended (? German "eingeschnappt") ...sets a good example in treating others and working for the project. ...is reliable. ...is willing to assume responsibility. ...puts his heart and passion into the project. Do you miss aspects? Do you think a special item is irrelevant? What is essential? Kind regards Regina
