date:20180811

Re: Drug dispense entry class question

2018-08-11 Thread Pablo Pazos

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Karsten Hilbert 
wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 04:24:47PM -0300, Pablo Pazos wrote:
>
> > > > I'm inclined to think it as an ACTION if this task alters the state
> of
> > > the
> > > > prescription INSTRUCTION ISM. On this case, as a parallel question,
> I'm
> > > not
> > > > sure if the dispense ACTION should be a final "COMPLETED" state, what
> > > > happens if we want to record the patient's intake of the drug? Where
> the
> > > > real "COMPLETED" is when the treatment is finished.
> > >
> > > That might mean that some INSTRUCTIONs never get COMPLETED
> > > until the patient dies.
> > >
> > >
> > There is a state "EXPIRED", so that is covered IMO if an expiration date
> is
> > recorded, or even if the whole system has preconfigured expiration dates
> > for drug treatments.
>
> I meant to say that some treatments will not end until the
> patient dies meaning that the COMPLETED state will never be
> reached if we take into account
>

Gotcha! Yes of course, chronic medication is never COMPLETED :)



> >>> [...] the patient's intake of the drug [... where] the
> >>> real "COMPLETED" is when the treatment is finished.
>
> Regards,
> Karsten
> --
> GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B
>
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> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-
> technical_lists.openehr.org
>



-- 
*Ing. Pablo Pazos Gutiérrez*
pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com
+598 99 043 145
skype: cabolabs
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Re: Drug dispense entry class question

2018-08-11 Thread Pablo Pazos

Thanks Ian,

I know this was modeled. Just wanted to understand the rationale behind
choosing an ACTION vs an ADMIN_ENTRY, this is to help me create an exercise
for my students. And for ACTION, if the dispense should be an active of
final state, and from your message it seems I was on the right path, not
thinking this as a final state since more actions can happen after the
dispense, like the one I mentioned of the patient recording intake.

:)

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 4:41 PM, Ian McNicoll  wrote:

> Hi Pablo,
>
> We have definitely modelled this into the ACTION.medication.v1 (Medication
> management) archetype
>
> https://openehr.org/ckm/#showArchetype_1013.1.123
>
> Prescription dispensed
>  Careflow step
>
> The ordered medication has been dispensed, for example from a pharmacy to
> the patient.
>
> It has an active state.
>
> Just note that this is not intended to support the internal pharmacy
> dispensing process, just a note that the pharmacy has dispensed the product.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> Dr Ian McNicoll
> mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
> office +44 (0)1536 414994
> skype: ianmcnicoll
> email: i...@freshehr.com
> twitter: @ianmcnicoll
>
>
> Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org
> Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd.
> Director, HANDIHealth CIC
> Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL
>
>
> On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 at 20:24, Pablo Pazos 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Karsten,
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Karsten Hilbert > > wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 04:03:28PM -0300, Pablo Pazos wrote:
>>>
>>> > How would you map a "pharmacy drug dispense" task, where the patient
>>> comes
>>> > with a prescription and a clerk delivers the medication packages?
>>> >
>>> > I was thinking this is clearly and ACTION, but also seems to be an
>>> > ADMIN_ENTRY, since it is just a delivery of some product.
>>> >
>>> > I'm inclined to think it as an ACTION if this task alters the state of
>>> the
>>> > prescription INSTRUCTION ISM. On this case, as a parallel question,
>>> I'm not
>>> > sure if the dispense ACTION should be a final "COMPLETED" state, what
>>> > happens if we want to record the patient's intake of the drug? Where
>>> the
>>> > real "COMPLETED" is when the treatment is finished.
>>>
>>> That might mean that some INSTRUCTIONs never get COMPLETED
>>> until the patient dies.
>>>
>>>
>> There is a state "EXPIRED", so that is covered IMO if an expiration date
>> is recorded, or even if the whole system has preconfigured expiration dates
>> for drug treatments. This is very common, at least in the systems that I
>> know.
>>
>>
>>> It might help to think of shifts in responsibility: who is
>>> primarily responsible for completion of a given action ?
>>>
>>> - write prescription -> doctor
>>> - hand out drug based on prescription -> pharmacist
>>> - take drug as instructed -> patient
>>>
>>> Each change of responsibility: doctor -> pharmacist ->
>>> patient might warrant a COMPLETED state.
>>>
>>> Karsten
>>> --
>>> GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B
>>>
>>> ___
>>> openEHR-technical mailing list
>>> openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org
>>> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-
>>> technical_lists.openehr.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Ing. Pablo Pazos Gutiérrez*
>> pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com
>> +598 99 043 145
>> skype: cabolabs
>> Subscribe to our newsletter 
>> 
>> http://www.cabolabs.com
>> https://cloudehrserver.com
>>
>> ___
>> openEHR-technical mailing list
>> openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org
>> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-
>> technical_lists.openehr.org
>>
>
> ___
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> openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org
> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-
> technical_lists.openehr.org
>
>


-- 
*Ing. Pablo Pazos Gutiérrez*
pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com
+598 99 043 145
skype: cabolabs
Subscribe to our newsletter 

http://www.cabolabs.com
https://cloudehrserver.com
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Re: Drug dispense entry class question

2018-08-11 Thread Karsten Hilbert

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 04:24:47PM -0300, Pablo Pazos wrote:

> > > I'm inclined to think it as an ACTION if this task alters the state of
> > the
> > > prescription INSTRUCTION ISM. On this case, as a parallel question, I'm
> > not
> > > sure if the dispense ACTION should be a final "COMPLETED" state, what
> > > happens if we want to record the patient's intake of the drug? Where the
> > > real "COMPLETED" is when the treatment is finished.
> >
> > That might mean that some INSTRUCTIONs never get COMPLETED
> > until the patient dies.
> >
> >
> There is a state "EXPIRED", so that is covered IMO if an expiration date is
> recorded, or even if the whole system has preconfigured expiration dates
> for drug treatments.

I meant to say that some treatments will not end until the
patient dies meaning that the COMPLETED state will never be
reached if we take into account

>>> [...] the patient's intake of the drug [... where] the
>>> real "COMPLETED" is when the treatment is finished.

Regards,
Karsten
-- 
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

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Re: Drug dispense entry class question

2018-08-11 Thread Ian McNicoll

Hi Pablo,

We have definitely modelled this into the ACTION.medication.v1 (Medication
management) archetype

https://openehr.org/ckm/#showArchetype_1013.1.123

Prescription dispensed
 Careflow step

The ordered medication has been dispensed, for example from a pharmacy to
the patient.

It has an active state.

Just note that this is not intended to support the internal pharmacy
dispensing process, just a note that the pharmacy has dispensed the product.

Ian



Dr Ian McNicoll
mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859
office +44 (0)1536 414994
skype: ianmcnicoll
email: i...@freshehr.com
twitter: @ianmcnicoll


Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org
Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd.
Director, HANDIHealth CIC
Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL


On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 at 20:24, Pablo Pazos  wrote:

> Hi Karsten,
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Karsten Hilbert 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 04:03:28PM -0300, Pablo Pazos wrote:
>>
>> > How would you map a "pharmacy drug dispense" task, where the patient
>> comes
>> > with a prescription and a clerk delivers the medication packages?
>> >
>> > I was thinking this is clearly and ACTION, but also seems to be an
>> > ADMIN_ENTRY, since it is just a delivery of some product.
>> >
>> > I'm inclined to think it as an ACTION if this task alters the state of
>> the
>> > prescription INSTRUCTION ISM. On this case, as a parallel question, I'm
>> not
>> > sure if the dispense ACTION should be a final "COMPLETED" state, what
>> > happens if we want to record the patient's intake of the drug? Where the
>> > real "COMPLETED" is when the treatment is finished.
>>
>> That might mean that some INSTRUCTIONs never get COMPLETED
>> until the patient dies.
>>
>>
> There is a state "EXPIRED", so that is covered IMO if an expiration date
> is recorded, or even if the whole system has preconfigured expiration dates
> for drug treatments. This is very common, at least in the systems that I
> know.
>
>
>> It might help to think of shifts in responsibility: who is
>> primarily responsible for completion of a given action ?
>>
>> - write prescription -> doctor
>> - hand out drug based on prescription -> pharmacist
>> - take drug as instructed -> patient
>>
>> Each change of responsibility: doctor -> pharmacist ->
>> patient might warrant a COMPLETED state.
>>
>> Karsten
>> --
>> GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B
>>
>> ___
>> openEHR-technical mailing list
>> openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org
>>
>> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Ing. Pablo Pazos Gutiérrez*
> pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com
> +598 99 043 145
> skype: cabolabs
> Subscribe to our newsletter 
> 
> http://www.cabolabs.com
> https://cloudehrserver.com
>
> ___
> openEHR-technical mailing list
> openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org
>
> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org
>
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Re: Drug dispense entry class question

2018-08-11 Thread Pablo Pazos

Hi Karsten,

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Karsten Hilbert 
wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 04:03:28PM -0300, Pablo Pazos wrote:
>
> > How would you map a "pharmacy drug dispense" task, where the patient
> comes
> > with a prescription and a clerk delivers the medication packages?
> >
> > I was thinking this is clearly and ACTION, but also seems to be an
> > ADMIN_ENTRY, since it is just a delivery of some product.
> >
> > I'm inclined to think it as an ACTION if this task alters the state of
> the
> > prescription INSTRUCTION ISM. On this case, as a parallel question, I'm
> not
> > sure if the dispense ACTION should be a final "COMPLETED" state, what
> > happens if we want to record the patient's intake of the drug? Where the
> > real "COMPLETED" is when the treatment is finished.
>
> That might mean that some INSTRUCTIONs never get COMPLETED
> until the patient dies.
>
>
There is a state "EXPIRED", so that is covered IMO if an expiration date is
recorded, or even if the whole system has preconfigured expiration dates
for drug treatments. This is very common, at least in the systems that I
know.


> It might help to think of shifts in responsibility: who is
> primarily responsible for completion of a given action ?
>
> - write prescription -> doctor
> - hand out drug based on prescription -> pharmacist
> - take drug as instructed -> patient
>
> Each change of responsibility: doctor -> pharmacist ->
> patient might warrant a COMPLETED state.
>
> Karsten
> --
> GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B
>
> ___
> openEHR-technical mailing list
> openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org
> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-
> technical_lists.openehr.org
>



-- 
*Ing. Pablo Pazos Gutiérrez*
pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com
+598 99 043 145
skype: cabolabs
Subscribe to our newsletter 

http://www.cabolabs.com
https://cloudehrserver.com
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Re: Drug dispense entry class question

2018-08-11 Thread Karsten Hilbert

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 04:03:28PM -0300, Pablo Pazos wrote:

> How would you map a "pharmacy drug dispense" task, where the patient comes
> with a prescription and a clerk delivers the medication packages?
> 
> I was thinking this is clearly and ACTION, but also seems to be an
> ADMIN_ENTRY, since it is just a delivery of some product.
> 
> I'm inclined to think it as an ACTION if this task alters the state of the
> prescription INSTRUCTION ISM. On this case, as a parallel question, I'm not
> sure if the dispense ACTION should be a final "COMPLETED" state, what
> happens if we want to record the patient's intake of the drug? Where the
> real "COMPLETED" is when the treatment is finished.

That might mean that some INSTRUCTIONs never get COMPLETED
until the patient dies.

It might help to think of shifts in responsibility: who is
primarily responsible for completion of a given action ?

- write prescription -> doctor
- hand out drug based on prescription -> pharmacist
- take drug as instructed -> patient

Each change of responsibility: doctor -> pharmacist ->
patient might warrant a COMPLETED state.

Karsten
-- 
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

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Drug dispense entry class question

2018-08-11 Thread Pablo Pazos

Hi all,

How would you map a "pharmacy drug dispense" task, where the patient comes
with a prescription and a clerk delivers the medication packages?

I was thinking this is clearly and ACTION, but also seems to be an
ADMIN_ENTRY, since it is just a delivery of some product.

I'm inclined to think it as an ACTION if this task alters the state of the
prescription INSTRUCTION ISM. On this case, as a parallel question, I'm not
sure if the dispense ACTION should be a final "COMPLETED" state, what
happens if we want to record the patient's intake of the drug? Where the
real "COMPLETED" is when the treatment is finished.

What do you think?

Thanks!

-- 
*Ing. Pablo Pazos Gutiérrez*
pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com
+598 99 043 145
skype: cabolabs
Subscribe to our newsletter 

http://www.cabolabs.com
https://cloudehrserver.com
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